Ep. 47 | Terry Rowles on the Evolution of the Golf Lesson and the Industry's Adaptations to New Technology

Terry Rowles (@terryrowles) joins us on this episode.

Terry was named as one of the 50 Best Teachers in America by GolfDigest and Top 100 Teachers in America by Golf Magazine. He is based at Mountain Ridge Country Club in New Jersey and during the winter, he teaches at Cool Clubs in Phoenix, Sunridge Canyon GC in Jupiter, and in Hawaii.

Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
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Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
Follow Leo: @leo_ugp
Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Transcript

terry: 0:00

High level executive and you know, wasn't a specially good golfer, but, you know, I told him, these are the three things you need to do and you need to do them in this order, turning around, teaching somebody else came back and he's like so much better because he controlled his lesson so perfectly, like I couldn't have done any better, you know, he'd understood what he said, done it, where, you know, the, it, depending on the person, you know, they may not have even listened. Right. I mean, you know, those people that just. Listen. So you have to bully them a little bit more or show them or whatever. So that's really the point. And, so some people make you look good cause they naturally like they do the lesson the right way. You got some people that may work in India because the diagnosis is tiny, but their ability to, you know, follow the program is, is tiny too.

leo: 0:57

Thanks for joining us, Terry. Excited

terry: 0:59

to have you on there have been golf. Yeah. Talk to you guys. You did a great job. I

leo: 1:03

appreciate it. So we're going to jump straight into our little fact box. We're just going to ask you some quick questions about you and you can have a short or long answer. It's up to you. What's your full

terry: 1:14

name? well, my full name is actually Terence roles. Not many people know my mom used to tell me off by Terrence Jones. Terry,

leo: 1:25

we want to call you turns them

terry: 1:29

what's a home for you. that's a good question. I have a, you know, a summer job. well, summer I spend most of my summer in New Jersey. So technically New Jersey is my home, but you know, this time of the year, so. You know, I've just been to the PGA show. So Orlando, I was in Miami. And then before that I was in Hawaii, Palm Springs. So kind of a busy sort of stretch of two months for me. So air American airlines, a seat for me for a

leo: 1:58

how'd you end up in New Jersey from England.

terry: 2:02

Oh, that's a long question. so, I, I was in England. I did, you know, sort of the, kind of a golf, what do you call it? a golf degree or something like this, golf management degree, in the early nineties. And, you know, I was always very like obsessively interested in golf swings. You know, I'd be at a regurgitate, you know, March, 1987 instructional article back to, or whatever, you know, I'd remember all that shit randomly. So I think, you know, kind of like the way we teach the whole. You either use it or fix it. Right. And so my past sort of determined itself as always pretty fascinated with golf. you know, I feel that my golf development could have been a director, so there's probably a frustration there as well, you know, for myself and others. so that sort of, you know, the interest of, of that. And then, you know, the frustration probably was, was like my guiding inspiration as it were. And then, then, so, you know, I qualified as a PGA member in, in the UK and, sort of, you know, a friend of mine went over to, to have lessons with led butter in the mid nineties. And I'm like, well, that looks really cool. So I just wrote to him and said, can I have a job? You know? Cause my fascination is always to keep trying to get better and learning and stuff like that. Just, I mean, it's a really, you know, strong drive inside of me. It's not like you don't have to do it for, you know, whatever. You know, they came back and basically interviewed me, you know, right before they started to hire a lot of people. Cause they sold their academies to M I N G. So I got a job and the culture, you know, I think people look at the person, but culture within the leopard organization, you know, around that time it was really great, you know, they had really great instructors. So we had really good people around us, which I think you guys have a similar environment. That seems very sort of can-do. and so I think. You know, combined with my sort of just innate interest of how things work was, was a really good combination. you know, we had a training program, but you know, we'd also have weekly meetings where we get together and talk about how to teach better, which I think, you know, if you look at it now in hindsight, what my frustration is with, you know, the coffee construction industry is that these sorts of, you know, apprenticeships that really exist. Right. And it's really, there's so many levels to, getting better at golf instruction that, you know, I mean, dealing with humans, dealing with the human body, making decisions, communicating, he knows all these things, right. And if you go more straight teaches or you hang out with all the people that are interested in you, so having good conversations, which help you do your job. I think that was a really great thing that, you know, to thank David and the academy system for, as being surrounded by, it turns out, you know, really great teachers. We had, you know, a lot of people that have gone through that come on to be very successful, you know, in Europe and then, in the world. So, so that was really cool. So then through that, you know, see, I came here to America and, you know, that sort of became my path. You know, I was teaching Ledbury academy and, you know, here, that system was in quite well. T'Challa already apply us, you know, burdened. These Berger was one of my junior students at that time, taught him for quite a long time. And so, you know, I had quite a few good juniors and things like that and, you know, realized like the learning capacity of, you know, from a father was not that good. So I ended up in the U S and early two thousands. and then, you know, I sorta took another path. I felt like I needed to go outside of, golf instruction. So I fell in that time that, you know, that better academy was talking about, being realistic, but you know, the, the extra parts in addition to you should have this type of supplying was not really there. So I ended up studying, you know, a lot about the body early in the two thousands. So, you know, Paul Chek was sort of leader in the field of coach education at that time. And so with him, before

leo: 5:35

he went, how long were you with lead better in total,

terry: 5:38

like six years. Five years. Okay. I wouldn't, you know, you go through from doing like a training program. I mean, it was pretty amazing when you look back, they wouldn't let you teach for at least three months, you know, and you'd have to watch the senior instructors. And let me think about that. And isn't, the NHS just doesn't exist, right? yeah, that was a pretty good idea. And then we do a training program, you know, you'd have multiple months of doing presentations and reviewing books. And I mean, it's just quite a lot of good stuff in that, in that system and make that, I don't think it's quite as comprehensive now, but, you know, I was kind of lucky to, to get exposed to that because, you know, sort of lined up with the way I think about things now, and then, you know, you and I were talking about, vision 54, right before we came on, so appear in a really different than mine. And I have a lot of respect for the way they, you know, they interact with people and the number of tools they have in their toolbox. Right. And one of the reasons, you know, maybe I can see that a little bit more clearly than, than some golf teachers would say is because, you know, I studied, NLP at that time too. So I went outside and started, okay, I need to understand the human body. And you know, this is like 2002. So it was. Early, but because I went outside of golf, it was pretty comprehensive, right. It wasn't just like a golf person told me about someone else's field, which happens a lot. So I learned NLP from the founder of the field is kind of guy called John grin, which really, I think set a good foundation. So you understand language, you understand, you know, how human interaction and things like that, which again, if you look at golf instruction or fitness instruction or whatever, you know, the human element is such a big deal, right? Understanding what someone's actually saying, or, you know, communicating that your message gets through. I think the, the saying is, you know, if I'm communicating on 95.8 and somebody else's receiving 92.7, it doesn't matter what you say. It's not going to hear it. Right. And that's even for the people that understand that they stay, if I'm right here. Yeah, exactly. Why, so then I, you know, I opened, I was kind of in this sort of flux around that time. I was a San Francisco and, I, you know, I knew all these different fields. And there was, you know, I hadn't really connected together. So she had like a, a cognitive sort of frustration that I couldn't quite put together. Like the. Idea. And the instruction is the, you know, the perfect swing, you know, the neutral swing and then the body moves differently for different people. And then people act differently and learn differently than they were in congruent with each other on some level. so I opened the endoscope. in like 2005 ish six, and the thing that brought it all together was technology. And that's kind of texts me really fast forward to today is that having had the opportunity to learn from some very intelligent people that, you know, I think people talk about intelligence, but it's really about how to think about problems. That's more interesting. So if you have a really good ability to sort of break things into parts and give them sort of a hierarchy and move around in that, it really helps you to deal with more complicated subjects in an easier way, I would say. And so using technology. So I was probably one of the first people that came in maybe 2007 or eight or something whenever they came out, one of those gigantic, suitcase track man, and, eventually got the, AMM 3d. So, you know, it was putting all these sort of data points together, but I came from it in a different direction because you know, for a golf teacher at that time, I had a much. Complete understanding of human movement, I would say. And so I just started to just sort of glued together and then I asked a few questions, you know, I mean, even if you just sort of say, oh, you know, that's interesting. I keep seeing that coming up or whatever, without really asking any questions. Cause I think, and that sort of, you know, with the data that was available helped me to sort of categorize things in different ways. So that was, that was that. And then along,

leo: 9:14

so that indoor facility was that just, you can have coaching with that technology and you're coaching regular golfers, San

terry: 9:20

Francisco, or okay. And I came over, you know, when I was overseas, I was teaching predominantly good juniors. and then I came over and obviously no one really knew it was. So I had to start again. you know, eventually I got to teach, on a semi-regular basis, the Olympic club, so that sort of help get me out into the, into the market, in the area. But, you know, I mean, that was probably any whatever, 10, 11 years ago. So, I mean, I've gone from being this almost like I've done another career. Terry, Terry, I'd

leo: 9:53

love to ask you a little bit about, you know, when you came over as an apprentice and you were worked for lead better, what, what

terry: 9:59

years were they? I started in 97. So I think until what time

leo: 10:04

were you in Orlando?

terry: 10:06

We would go. So I'd go to, I went to lake no-no for. Three months know to start. So that was, and then we, what happened is that I think they'd sold to IMG at that time, so they don't come some new academies, so they needed to have some train staff. So we went out, I went out to Australia, just south of Beanna and then we had an academy. So we, we sort of have a, you know, snowbird style, right. So we'd have one in somewhere like that. And then they offset that with some go to Spain in the winter, for example, and then we'd come over, you know, for a number of weeks, and to do training in the winter or what have you. So, you know, so I'd moved around a bit, but primarily I was is, is in Australia and, Spain and then different. Yeah, Jamaica one within

leo: 10:48

that there I was there. Terry, I went to IMG as a junior. I lived in Bradington. I went to that 2000 and 2000 and 2002. So I was there with Gary Gilchrist was my group. And then Paula creamer and who got to Granada Casey Wittenberg and all those guys. So I was part of that class. you know, I got to see that academy. That's actually where a lot of the inspiration for what, what we've built here with urban golf performance has come from. And just seeing that, just kind of the, the lifestyle that, that it brought and seeing all the instructors. And so I'll just be really curious as to what it was like under the hood and behind the scenes and international expansion of golf instruction and all these apprentices we've talked to Kate Phillips and he that's how he started was being, you know, David Leadbetter, his video guy for it. We were there. I was there. I mean, he was, I forgot how many years. He said he was like, I didn't teach a lesson for like five years, you know,

terry: 11:34

just,

leo: 11:34

in the video for him. So it's just so that time in golf instruction is so I'm so fascinating all of these innovators and trying to expand it. And I was very inspired by that. So it'd be curious to hear what your thoughts were about,

terry: 11:44

you know, was, I mean, think about it, you know, at some point in probably the late eighties, early nineties to start using. So, before that everyone knew everything. So, you know, it's actually pretty interesting when you, when you first saw your swing on video, but I remember mine. I was convinced I swung like Faldo right. Growing up in England in the late eighties. at turned out it was close to the gym shirt when they filed it. anyway, so, and then, you know, the other thing, started to teach a video is you go, oh, Hey, you know, this is what your swing fall looks like. Let me just show you. And it completely didn't look like that. Right. So, you know, you got slapped around the place pretty quick, realizing that you couldn't see what you thought you saw, which you, and just, you know, I mean, there's just such a rudimentary level of technology, right? It's like, you don't see what you see. So, you know, there's, there's trying to analyze a ball flight, you know, or a. You know, where are you getting your power from? How your, whatever chest is moving, the golf swing or something. This is, this is just so interesting. So, so anyway, so obviously having, you know, these gigantic VHS cameras, I think Dave was involved with a, a company that, was, was digitizing those videos. Right? So there was, so he was, I think they, you know, they, they were the ones that put it into sort of a, B one type software at that time I can't remember was called. And then, you know, and obviously they've spent a lot of time right next to David, you know, with, with the, and he'd put the videos into the system, you know, do the video analysis, but they would say it was pretty cool. So, yeah, I mean, as I, as I said, right, I mean, that was the place to be at that time. It was, you know, David was undisputed, number one in the midnight.

leo: 13:22

incredible players

terry: 13:23

during that time. And I think, again, it was the culture, right? So I would say if there's any young teachers listening, what I'm really saying is not that David had all the answers because no one has all the answers, but he had a culture, which I think I can really respect your culture is, you guys always trying to get better, but you surround yourself with other people in that culture. And it was just a really good group of people, in my opinion, you know, doing, you know, sort of mixing, cause I mean, you know, teaching golf is difficult, right? Because you know, you have to get results from a heavy and it is a little bit of, we, we now know 20, 25 years later, there's just so many variables, so many moving parts that, you know, you have an idea and it doesn't work. Right? So this is trial and error thing that went on and you ended up just teaching the things at work. And that was sort of. Phase really, it might've been 16 lessons. Right. So I, you know, I tried to get'em down the tow line of backsliding and it didn't work or whatever it was. And, you know, so we had this sort of, you know, travel and error assessment that we ended up just doing what worked. And then that process is like significantly shorter than that. I mean, almost like, yeah, this is the point where we, we can predict, what should happen within, you know, without seeing someone swelling almost. So what was, what

leo: 14:36

was the formal, was there a formal process as you would intake? So a new young coach like yourself back then. What would be the process? Like would you say just shadow for a long time or would there be, here's the kind of books you need to read? Here's, here's some sort of formal education process

terry: 14:51

with some sort of levels you need to pass through. What was the most of the process for you guys back then? Again, I mean, there's a thing in German. So I also learn German through this, cite Geist is, is an important thing. I think when young people look back, not that I'm old, but I'm older than some, psychosis means that, you know, when you judge the past, you have to obviously go back to the past. Right? And so if you look at what I'm saying is the high-tech. You know, a gigantic movie camera, with a VHS, et cetera. So, I mean, just put yourself in that situation. so we'd have, you know, different, I mean we would share just almost like a book club almost we'd have different books and we've had this lady, Patty McCowen, who was, she was really into, you know, like Tony Robbins and stuff, which I think is, it was a good influence, you know? we talked about that time. I think it was more interesting than later because his personality almost over WellMed, the systems that he was using early on, he was very much using. So the NLP systems, you know, so he talked about rapport and communication and using your physiology properly and things like that. So we, you know, we've learned some interesting things. just as a consequence again, it's like the people you're around would share books and things. So formally, I think it was a very relatively loose system, but, you know, as. Evolved and the type of gun inside the people that were involved were, were pretty intelligent and sort of ambitious people. So I think we, we ended up having a good bond in terms of trying to get better and things like that. We definitely looked to other people's stuff. I mean, you know, I very much worked closely with, my academies now. And my favorite book at that time was the laws of the golf swing, which Mike had written. And it was the number one book of the year. And, you know, it's pretty widely spread across the, the academies. And it was, it was, you know, introducing the concept that people are built differently and move differently and therefore they should swing differently, which was probably my, you know, within the structure of that academy, we were able to look at other things. We actually have to make presentations, so comparing, the different styles, so that there's a good rounded education. I think which again, I just don't know where that exists nowadays, except with us. We have, education. That's my home, but, you know, and the reason I, you know, the reason why can I do, I mean, the reason I do is because, you know, I feel like I have a very nice place in the golf world now through, you know, some of the foundational stones that were laid in place early on. You like having your ability to think, because you've been around lots of different styles, is, is a good thing.

leo: 17:15

So Terry, we, we have over 20 full-time coaches now across four locations, and we always love to talk about this because you kind of hinted at it. Golf coaching is, somewhat arbitrary and it's, it's a lifelong journey. What would you say to a young coach, that may be, have ambitions to, you know, let's say become a top a hundred coach, you know, number one, and this is kind of a bad question. How long does it take to become a good coach? And then number two, you know, what do you think is, are the best steps or maybe better goals than a top a hundred, or if you feel like that's a good goal, you can talk to that. But you know, we talk to our coaches a lot about this is because they might come into your GP and we have a lot of traction already. So they might be a, have a full book in three months. And they're a new coach and two years in, they feel like they're a veteran in the, in the, in the game of golf coach. And so maintaining perspective is, is, is a big part of, you know, when we communicate with our coaches. So how would you, how would you break that down for?

terry: 18:29

Well, I think the interesting thing is if you look at, you know, let's say you look at the golf rankings, for example, and you see, you know, towards the top of the rankings, you've got, still got David, my cannabis, Jim Hardy, Jim McLean. I think Randy Smith is significantly under ranked. You know, he should be way up there and, you know, they're not really giving worse lessons than they did 10 years ago, even though the potentially the rankings have slips a little bit, so that maybe know procedure where I have yours slips a little bit. but I think, you know, what, what do they represent as obviously a lot of experience? you know, I think, I listened to this guy today. She said, she really cool. I, you guys seen them all on the, on Twitter. So Nevada has some pretty cool, yeah. you know, you choose stuff, but then he does bought his book. He

leo: 19:13

has like an Almanac.

terry: 19:14

Yeah. So that's like, all of this is all wisdom. I really enjoy it. So, anyways, this other guy that he talks to his capital Gupta, and I love his, his approach in that, you know, so what you asked me for is a prescription of how to become a great coach, which is one thing. But if you listen sort of, when I was growing up, I was like this just crazily interested in this shit, you know? And like, and I still am. so there's this like in, interest, I think you have to work out, you know, when you have coaches, like from your guys' standpoint is the interest level, you know, I mean, I think on some level, some people are interested in making more money, right. So if they go from nothing to. you know, full book and in a year, then they're probably excited to be making money. Other people, you know, who knows what the motivations are. But I think in the end, the people that, will end up and stay in the top 100 or top 50 or whatever it is, are going to be the people that are just genuinely interested in the game. so I don't know how you, you cultivate not, I think, you know, I'm standing here at cow club this week, I'm excited to go and play golf, right? So it's like, I think on some level keeping an interest in playing and, you know, just being a golfer and things like that over the course of your career is important because I don't care what business you're in, if you're just dealing with people and you're trying to make changes for people it's exhausting, if you don't have a series of tools. Right. So I think, you know, my first answer is the person has to have like this innate drive to do the thing they're doing. And if that happens, then they really don't need much help to be honest. And, you know, it's like, The camel going through the desert and once they spot in Oasis, they know how to drink the water. So I think part of it is, is, is on you guys to provide Oasis once in a while to, to give them some way to feed themselves. Because if you're giving out as a coach all the time, then you know, you definitely need to be, filling out the well. so the second thing is, you know, obviously success is, satisfying, right? So if you're getting good results, depending on the personality style of the coaches, right? Some people, you know, they really enjoy the human interaction. They like onboarding, you know, whatever it is. so, you know, if they feel like they're getting, you know, some repeat customers that they sort of, their well gets filled up with mixed with these people, that's probably a good thing. you know, I, well, as obviously learning, so I, you know, I was always very keen to, to learn different things. So if they have the capacity to go in and do the lessons and keep learning, that's a good thing. So, so I think, you know, the second part is, you know, you have to have a drive. Second thing is you have to sort of recognize your style. you know, obviously these days becoming more famous as like the, the, the most accessible style, right. It depends if you're not doing Instagram stuff and what have you. By the time, the young coaches in your, in your business. So, you know, going to be in a classification again, the top 100, then, you know, that's going to change, you know? So I think if you look at something like church gang being pioneer in that field, in that business, there's only one George, right? On some level. I mean, you know, Sean is Sean Farley has done it. We just talked about it a little bit, in a different way, he's offering a different, you know, content. He's not competing with George and he's gotten tired of, young coaches really, like his approach to more like philosophical approach. And, so, so I think first thing is the drive. Second thing is they have to keep refilling the well, you know, because giving out this is tiring and frustrating, sort of some at some point. Thirdly, you have to sort of look ahead and say, well, where is it going to be? Let's say, I mean, you probably have to have taught for about 15 years, I would guess to, to even consider yourself to be top on it. because you know, it's just, I think Nicholas Taleb has a book now it's called skin in the game where you got these two sort of factions and one is hyper theoretical and the other one is the guy who's just, you know, doing the thing, you know, and that's, you know, my accounts is that guy, right? So he, he gives 10 lessons a day, six or seven days a week. And, we throw an idea and you want to approach it the same as I would, because, you know, I'm a more modern generation approach of using technology. But you know, in about two months, it'll be the master of it, you know? So like the way that he, he, you know, he's evolved the use of force places, partially because he's hanging out with some really smart people. He's made what they said much better by doing everyday. Right. And, you know, the next way to look at becoming successful in the next 10 years is to say, where is it going? you know, so I need to master that fat, right? So obviously the integration between fitness, the way the body works, you know, how you assess a human or that didn't get better and better. you know, the tools that we have to do that is getting better. I will say that you guys have seen what we're doing with sports books. I mean, it's a very early stage, you know, instantly available 3d motion capture for example. But, you know, once we integrate, you know, the launch monitor and other devices that you can start to make sense of those numbers, then you know, the AI is going to do something. So, you know, I think the opposite end of the market is going to struggle. You know, so people are not trying to get better and not trying to understand the future are going to get left behind because the machine is going to take care of the bottom end of them market on some level, you know, people are not going to go to the cost less and they're going to go to the automated thing, whatever. But I think that's where an interesting pieces. Cause I think the 3d is definitely, you know, TPI showed us something that connects the, the golfer on the, on the physical body together.

leo: 24:34

I tell you, I don't think that could be any more spot on what you're saying about, about this in my experience, the last, you know, 15, 15 years or so in the. Is everyone I've talked to, whether it was land skill or they Philips, or these guys that, you know, Greg rose or any anyone who's really innovated in the game and been around for a while when you get to their story, when they were young. And they really, you know, looked at themselves as beginners and were always apprentices in their minds. And they're you look at it and you're like, God, how did you endure that? Or stick with that? David Ledbetter taught a bunch of beginners, all the, you know, and he, it was a grind, Chris Caldwell I've talked to him. And so I, we kind of worry sometimes with what we're doing, because we have this polished product, you know, at least on the outside. And we bring in people and they immediately, we fill the hole with clients and we give them

terry: 25:19

all these resources and they are attracted to the brand

leo: 25:21

because it's high end and it's nice and all these cool clients are coming in and we have Collin and, and we, you know, the ones who aren't that passionate get through the cracks all the time. And really, and we're, you know, we're a little naive and, they're good at selling. And so I think in some way, You know, that's, that's what we've noticed. It doesn't matter how many resources we give or education, or if we create an Oasis, if they're not passionate about it, if they don't love it. I mean, I, I taught him a driving range in Austin, and I remember I managed, I had six employees. I had a port-a-potty is my bathroom. And my wife was like, what are you? What are we doing? You know, like we had a baby, we had a baby on the way. She's like, you have six part-time employees. You hand pick the rains in south Austin and you have a Porter body. And like it's a hundred degrees outside. Like what? I was like, I have a plan and I love this. And it's like, eventually going to work out my dad. I mean, he was like, dude, you premed. And you're doing this now. Like, what is the deal? And for me, I had this vision as to like what golf performance meant to me as a whole, from my background as a junior golfer through college and kind of having these failures and saying, I want other people to not go through that sort of such a deep, why that I endured those times. I look back. I'm like, God, I don't want to that. It was crazy. I wouldn't want that for my kid, but it was just my journey. And so in a lot of ways, if you're not, if you're not, you don't love it. And you're not going to go through the ups and downs of it. And that's what we say all the time. So we try to simulate it, being hard in our environment, our nice controlled environments. We try to make it difficult. because it's, it's almost too easy. We really, we really fished really well and created a nice machine. And so in a lot of ways they can come in and it's

terry: 26:53

almost a little too cush. And so we're

leo: 26:56

trying to simulate that tough journey for them, you know,

terry: 26:58

like, different levels, you know, pricing models or maybe,

leo: 27:04

yeah, we're all a team. Whereas the way we look at it, where as strong as our weakest link and that's kind of, we, we actually price based off of our week. So our price point is based off of our lowest quality, individual and least experienced. And I think we could charge a lot more for our highly experienced coaches. And because of that, that's kind of where we have the bottom of,

terry: 27:26

yeah. I just wonder if this, you know, a way to create education program that makes it sort of, because you have to understand, like, if you had an education program that potentially, you know, gave him more money. So you've fulfilled two objectives, right? The people that were more money would be motivated and the people in what education would be motivated and then. You got the ones left over that want to be famous. So you kind of have to fulfill that need to go. This is like that, right? You either want to be good, famous or rich. I mean, that's sorry. That's that's like the three pillars

leo: 27:56

of cost instruction. Yeah. I think for us, it's always been just about getting better at identifying those individuals that really do it for the right reasons and they have the right intentions and for every year we're getting better and better at it and we're getting better at identifying it even before. And, but, but, hiring is difficult, you know, and people, we, we, we go off a faulty information usually and introduce, so, but I think you're right at the end of the day, you know, passion is what drives you through obstacles and through adversity, throughout your whole career. And that's why I kind of asked that question is like, how long does it take? Because, I think young coaches, sometimes get a skewed idea of how, of what coaching is and the art of coaching. And, you know, maybe they are a coach now, but they don't want to come be a coach for that. Okay. What, so what is that then? You know, who, who are you and why, what identity is that I'm a coach for the next six years. And so I've always kind of been pretty strong on this is like, I always, my background is as an exercise physiology. And so I've always looked at myself as a trainer and I still do, and I've coached as well, but I, I will always identify as a trainer and I, I want to train people for the rest of my life. And I think because of that mindset, I can do other things, but if I didn't have that mindset, then I would have joined and done it for the wrong reasons in the first place. Is that your interpretation of passion too, is like I'm a golf coach for life.

terry: 29:38

Yeah. I mean, I'm just, like I said earlier, you know, I'm just like so fascinated by it, you know? And, you know, it definitely made. Yeah. Getting rich decisions in the interest of getting better, or, or non-famous I started to do Instagram now, you know, because everyone else, you know, I get satisfaction from having answers for the most number of people, right. I mean, it's like the most satisfying things for me is, you know, some random person turns up and, you know, if you look at all of the boxes that you got to sort of tick, you have to, you know, understand how they want to move. So we have an assessment that we do is more like, how can you move versus how can't you move? and then once we get the sort of the diagnosis in place, then the next box is how do I now communicate that to the person? Right? So he goes to sort of, you know, deep fields of human humanity that you have to understand. you need both of them to make your job much easier. Right. And so, you know, in that regard, it's, you know, satisfying to be able to, I mean, if you remember, you know, how hard it is to, deal with people early in your career, I mean, nobody didn't have the answer, you know, very well formulated. And then secondly, you didn't have the ability to communicate it very well formulated. So, you know, if you have the person, I mean, some people just make it so easy to teach them. Right. They have, you know, I told this right. High level executive and you know, wasn't a specially good golfer, but, you know, I told him, these are the three things you need to do and you need to do them in this order, turning around, teaching somebody else came back and he's like so much better because he controlled his lesson so perfectly, like I couldn't have done any better, you know, he'd understood what he said, done it, where, you know, the, it, depending on the person, you know, they may not have even listened. Right. I mean, you know, those people that just. Listen. So you have to bully them a little bit more or show them or whatever. So that's really the point. And, so some people make you look good cause they naturally like they do the lesson the right way. You got some people that may work in India because the diagnosis is tiny, but their ability to, you know, follow the program is, is tiny too. And what

leo: 31:46

about Terry visiting that like about, you said bullying them a little bit. I love that because that's my coaching style with the majority of belay golf community. That's why I'm not allowed to,

terry: 31:57

I

31:57

know

leo: 31:57

that's how I trick, you know, so what's what, like, I try to teach a lot of young coaches that too. It's like, how do you do that? When you're a young, new coach and you are like trying to figure out their learning style and say someone isn't listening the whole time, what are ways that, what are ways that you do that? How do you. What have you learned in communication throughout all your years? Cause I think a lot of good coaches, I see. They'll just be like, well, that person doesn't want to listen. So I'm not, they'll kind of just go through the lesson and kind of talk behind their back, you know, and just kind of get through it versus saying like, Hey, I'm going to get this point across this. Person's going to listen to me at the end of the session. We're going to get some outcomes here.

terry: 32:34

Yeah. I mean, the description of that is easy to talk about, but less easy to engage. I mean, I still a wonder about people coming to the lessons don't really want to engage in the process, but if you look at it, so what I just said, the process, what I mean, right. It's really my process. So I haven't engaged in that process as the problem. Right. So, you know, I just had a couple of people over from Europe and, wanting to learn and they were very like, you know, Into the aspects of my crew possible learning how to teach part. And I'm like, well, watch this right. So I'd give a lesson and then I wouldn't call for 10 minutes. And my point is, at some point I have a radar for, listening to the person say, I want this. Cause they weren't saying it, you know, directly sometimes, especially, you know, when you deal with some, you know, AAA personalities. So you just wait, I mean, you wait. And so, you know, you can engage in some small toe, you know, talk about whatever I watched him hit some shots, but that at some point I'll let Sean though go fuck, Hey, that left shot. And you know, oh, I left now I'm going here. Right. Because now I go, okay, let's talk about that last shot because they've expressed the frustration and they opened the door to learning. I think what everyone, I think golf instruction has sort of cannibalized itself a little bit in some ways that, you know, it was so bad for sometimes like. Any wave or at a ton of new technology. The beginning of that wave is there's not always like the best time for golf, but later in the wave, it's excellent for golf. I mean, if you look at like launch video and cameras and things like that. so, so I think, you know, over time people have taken golf lessons, they've done golf schools and, you know, touched, got worse, and become a little bit more difficult to teach through the fat experience. Right. And so I think that the key I would communicate to any young person is you always have to wait for the, for the need, you know, the person hour, hour, well, going into a lesson, we have an idea of what we want to do is very easy. Right. And we'd all, you know, I teach Tyga was this and this so much better. Right? I mean, it's hope to anyone that's going to type it's, it's not that easy. It's not going to sit there and just listen to you. Right. you know, false told a story where he would send him something in the bonds. Let it be, you know, sort of Tiger's idea. It's just genius because that's about as a personality as you can meet, right? When you say you teach him like the normal person, you don't go, oh, you got to take it back, you know, more like this and do that. You know, it's, it's different with different people, but, so the point being, you have to wait, you know, maybe let's say target setting goals on the ranch either. I could imagine, you know, Brooks cup will be kind of a similar style. It's like, you know, and then he hits it, left into the trees. It's like, what's that? So now he's got him. Right. Whereas, you know, just teaching at them and saying, you know, tiger. Listen to me, you know, this is a, this is the three things you need. It's not gonna work, you know, so, you know, maybe you get a picture taken next to them and you get it's on Instagram, you get 10,000 more followers, but you didn't do a good lesson. Right. And it's not gonna last so that, it's almost like reverse communications. You have to wait until you get a big, you know, please help me, but it doesn't come in those words. Right. It comes in, you know, I hate that show or, you know, oh, you know, last time I played a tournament, you know, I hit it there or whatever. So I think, you know, in terms of more difficult people on it, you just have to be a little patient and wait for them to express frustration. Please help me or something like that to 25 minutes, right?

leo: 35:57

Yeah. Total quiet, quiet, awkward silence. Until they

terry: 36:00

really start saying, I need some help. The other one is you can just out silence them, you know, they're not ask it and you're not, you're not giving. You're just, this is like, you know, it's like playing poker, just wait, I'll wait. And then the other one is, I mean you have to sort of work it out with people. You know, I have people I just tell all the time. I mean, they, they, I don't know where it comes from, but you have a kind of sense of how to deal with people. And, you know, in my case, I think this is just training. and that's another thing you do with different, different, great teachers. You know, some of the older guys will senior goes, I mentioned, you know, they don't, they didn't have the training that I had or that you guys have had with. But, you know, you had it, you know, like I said about Nicholas Taleb is skin in the game, right there in the trenches, trying to get results that famous, you know, so they got the reputation on the line. They get paid a lot. So there's a lot of responsibility and they have to find a way and some people will sweet talk them in the next lesson, same teacher, completely unconsciously. They'll be right. The person in front of them, that's sort of, you know, the benefit of experience.

leo: 37:04

That's great. That's sounds cycle from some classic British sarcasm, maybe

terry: 37:09

first thing that came to my mind when you said that it was like, I practiced 25 years, you know, that works every time, depending on where you are. you know, some people don't understand it. So if I had an English person sat next to me, we'd be like, it doesn't even register.

leo: 37:29

American sarcasm is slightly different, but, yeah, it's, it's an art form, right? It's the art of eating. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of segues into your, you mentioned, you know, you're teaching that executive and, and then kind of leaving and coming back. I like to kind of look at, you know, the game and whether it's fitness or coaching is, you know, it kinda always depends. Right? That's usually always the answer, but what if we're gonna, remove that for a second and say, well, there are also some, hopefully some universal truth. If you have a hundred golfers lined up and you're coaching them all, what are some universal truth? I always ask that question. People have, I mean, this is like, we've talked about this a lot. It's like, what, what, what is the problem in golf instruction? I mean, on a global level, such as big game, and there's absolutely almost zero things that golf coaches can agree on. And isn't that one of the main issues,

terry: 38:35

that's the complete underpinning of our education program. So. so I think it's like this, right? So if you look at a golf instruction, you know, from a technical standpoint, you know, obviously people already want speed, but you know, they want to hit it straight to right on a, on a, you know, on a visceral level, you know, if you're gonna gain 10 miles now, but hit a rebel in the trees, when you go play golf, you weren't doing it. Right. So like Bryce, you know, early in when Bryson was getting his speed, you know, you would be, hitting it, whatever, 200 miles an hour in the, in the net or somewhere. but you know, when you go play, we'd go down to 180 5. So, you know, the, the, one of the things where my account was like, you know, really connected with, understanding that your. Intent is part of the golf swing, right? So if I make a perfect golf swing and it goes in the water on the left, the challenge would be making another perfect golf swing is zero, right? Because now I'm going to start adding pieces that fulfill the objective of the game. So, so I I'll explain like this, and then you've got speed components. So, so basically the way you use your lower body is a little bit more of a universal truth because it's further from the implement and further from the outcome, right? So some of the universal truths we've seen are from a ground reaction standpoint, grand ration flow standpoint, and you look at it as 3d, you know, the sway stops before the rotation and the rotation starts before the left. So, or ground force would be a lateral force, rotational force, vertical force. So there's a sequence to the connects and the kinematics, universally, I mean, that's like, you know, you could even argue that, you know, kinematic sequence is not. You know, a hundred percent of those, you know, if you go and measure the a hundred topless, what I just said would be universal truth

leo: 40:16

second, meaning. So like 1, 2, 3, 4 in order

terry: 40:19

like blends, right? I mean, this thing's happening famously, but there's a sequence to the local of what action, when a good player changes direction. and now look at what I just said, it's really far from the club, right? Because the context of, you know, how, how they manipulate the club is, is different. So that the club it's the closer you get to the club, the more unique it is, right? So the person squares up the club, which is, you know, unless you're a psychopath, you know, you, don't chaos thing you want to kill the score is, you know, you're just going to do it the same as everybody else. You can't play golf. So, so I think as you go from the ground up, so another universal truth that we've seen on, sports box, filtered them, I actually did a list of universal truths. One of them is. The pelvis and Forex, both move towards the target early in the downswing, even prior, just fractionally prior to the downswing. So, so there's a moving towards, of the body, which is absolutely mismatched when you look at, handicapped golfers. So those two, we all hold the rubber gone.

leo: 41:25

No, just, go back to the first one. So if you have a hundred, cause I know there are exceptions to that rule as well on tour, right? There's people that don't go 1, 2, 3, 4, But is it a, is it like 90 or 95? Is that, well, that's

terry: 41:38

a good question. It depends what you're looking at. I think the general concept of the I'm not going to call it, I call it a rotation sequence, right? Because this rotation is kinematic is, you know, measuring things that you kind of, you know, they, they move, right. So you have movements, you have accelerations, you have speeds. so I think it is unfortunately named because, you know, if we split forces and motions to apart, we were talking about kinematics, right? So, so I call it a rotation sequence, constant field, treat them as one of my very dear friends. And, I tell them off on this one, but he, he's kicking and screaming cause it keeps showing up as being really important. But, so you know, it depends on what you're looking at. I mean, there's a transition sequence, which is much closer to the very high. Then you have like the acceleration sequence, you know, the acceleration phase, let's say which, which as you noticed as a physiology expert is hugely dependent on the person's custody to move. And it really does. So that, that acceleration of sequence shows up, you know, physical limitations pretty quickly, you know, range of motion, challenges, things like that. And then the decelerate

leo: 42:42

drops down. Yeah. It drops down from like a hundred percent, almost in transition to like 60, 70% more. So I'm like for,

terry: 42:52

yeah. And I think once you get out of that initial sort of loading, loading, you know, high force, low velocity loading, Then you get into the, club delivery phase, in my opinion. And then you start to see, I mean, obviously the physical components have been well-documented as to, you know, strengthen the mobility and things like that. But you know, what we see significantly is how much the club face affects the delivery sequence. Right. So, you know, so for example, somebody who sort of peak kind of the shape of the peaks, someone like Zach Johnson, who was a very strong grip, you know, so a strong grip. So we have these things, we call it face openers and face poses, right? So if you're a very strong grip, you're more likely to have more lateral shift. If you have more lateral shifts, your acceleration deceleration curve is going to be a lot flatter than if you have a very weak grip like Patrick Reed, for example, where he's stepped out of the way on us. So he's got a very low amount. you know, lateral a high amount of rotational speed, I guess, or just rotation. And so you would have a different looking peak. So, you know, just grip in its own, right. Has a big effect on that. you know, sort of peaking sequence, you know, as, as the body, right? So it's very difficult to separate, but I would say, you know, if I were to, you know, change someone's grip, and this is really where, you know, like the program that Mike and I put together was to come together as, early in the phase away, you know, I had a NAMM and the track Mount, I saw the biggest variable and all the numbers on the track man was, was grip. You know, you'd have high launch, low spin was stronger players getting up on it, low launch, high spin with weak players. And then you transition that over into the 3d and you'd see, you know, the translation and rotations with. Predictably different, you know, I'd have everybody coming in. Everyone was my student, is my victim, you know, having a little closer face. It was right in the face of that straight. And you'd see, you know, different offline numbers. And so the face is really king, but the problem is everybody face differently. So that's where we come back to. The original question is like, what's the universal truth. Well, everyone has to square the face. the complication of it is that they use the whole audit to do it. You know, they may slide to keep the face open or they may, you know, release it early to sort of close. you know, it is quite predictable. but it's impossible to lump into one box. I mean, we can really lump pretty much everything into three buckets, generally speaking and they will interact. And so, so that's how I looked at that. So the universal is a much easier in terms of power generation and a lot more difficult in terms of clubs, squaring.

leo: 45:27

So basically those two. What about, what about low point with iron's? Is that something that we can agree on or,

terry: 45:34

everyone should hit the ground on the same place. Yeah, that's a great book. Everyone's gonna hit the middle of the face. They all hold the rubber and, you know, I mean, but there's so many universal truths, total bullshit. It's like, you know, everyone has to think straight, you know, the railway lines have probably ruined more people than not, you know, if you take. I would guess the man, I mean, we, we know, you know, so somebody like Laurie, for example, I think Rory has got worse by trying to square up his chest. You know, Rory has a very weak right hand grip, which, which is a whole long thing, right? If you're weak in your right hand, your elbow comes out more. So like Rory and more like this, you know, Dustin Johnson that even starts to swing like this. Right. So, so the whole arm thing. So as a consequence of this, this arm big more out, the chest would be more open. So if you look at like a Hogan, he had an open chest, the foot position we're already played really well, especially with this iron game. you know, I think he sort of tiered, he was actually deteriorated from like 13 onwards. And,

leo: 46:29

so you're talking to this, the railroad track, like hips and shoulders

terry: 46:33

squaring up. So if you just put Rory McIlroy square, for example, and you go feet square, hips, square shoulders, Counselor face up. I mean, it means the world talent, right? We're talking about, you know, going from probably second and, approach shots to 60th or something, but on his level, that's, that's pretty bad relative to where it was. Right. I'm just giving an example. Now, Dustin Johnson went the other way instead of being square, he went to Oakland, you know, so he has a strong grip, which tends to push the swing direction to the right. And, you know, I think the story with Butch was that he said, you know, what are you trying to cut? Some cuts? He's only one hit some cuts, but he didn't mention. You know, put it into practice and then, you know, eventually came back to Birch this isn't going to hit some cuts. So that's like genius coaching. Right. And I think that's probably where, you know, Bush separates itself from the field is knowing how to deal with these, you know, these athletes on that level of the, you know, challenge them in a way that they don't even realize that, you know, so, yeah. So DJ was a strong grip, opposites, Rory, aimed left and, and now it's cuts. so you know, the problem with the whole golf industry. And I think, you know, I still have some issues with the fitness industry, is average talk. Yeah. I mean, so let's say, you know, you have different types of sports people, you have different, you know, people's movement styles, limb lanes, you know, you name it right. the human condition on some level in tone, Our business, right. Is always to try and return people to the middle. And, you know, so what I just said is that Rorion, you know, you asked me the absolute truth. I gives you an absolute opposites, you know, Rory needs to play from a slightly close tops with the open chest. And Dustin Johnson is the opposite. He's going to play with the open spots for the close chest on average, this straight. So we teach our women straight. Right? So now it's almost like if I go to the fitness industry of us 20 years, you know, functional fitness became a thing, right. But I mean, if you, if you were to teach you say, for example, a new, you know, potentially can't touch his toes and you, you know, you teach a touches foes, there's no guarantee that's gonna make him a better sprinter. So understanding which components, I mean, especially in regards to performance, right? So let's say, you know, you're a long drive champion, their careers really short. If you look at them, not, not through injury, just as someone else comes through, right. You know, you've got like a Sutton house and he was like, how can I be that guy? And then, you know, Tim Burke came along and how can anyone be that guy now? You know, Kyle Berkshire comes mom. It's like, how can anyone be that guy? You know, this, this, these waves of people come through. But if you look at the way they moved from, you know, on a 3d health basis, you wouldn't teach them to do anything that they do, right. You say, well, you know, back with Ben, he's got way too much sort of factor and it's going to hurt himself. But if you fix those things, it'd be like, it is no longer in his game. Right. So, so there's a, you know, there's a risk in playing the game. And I think this is kind of what Jason had talked about in his career. He sort of, he went from performance, not longevity, but obviously now he's rebuilt a rebuilding itself with, you know, Chris Berman making some good progress. So, so there's like, you know, the middle, isn't always the place where everyone should live. Yeah, your goal is sort of health span. and you want to play golf for the next 75 years versus, you know, you want to play the best golf you possibly can for the next five. And there's two different ways of approaching it. Now the fitness broker firm becomes protective against your, you know, chosen excessive ranges versus, you know, corrective, right. Bringing someone with that back to the middle. So I think, I think that's just my, my point is not necessarily to even golf for a fitness. It's like, you know, human nature loves symmetry and things moving towards the middle, especially golf instruction. but you know, I really like this comment from, Bruce Rearick, who we worked together. He was punting coach. Fantastic. Because he says you have to use it, not fix it. Right. And so in the case of somebody who's caused sort of outlying, there is no outlets by the way, the outline movement, you protect them against themselves versus, you know, returning them to it. Like Adam Scott, Which wouldn't work

leo: 50:33

for example. No, but I, I agree with that. I mean, it's, it's like you have your DNA, your, your software and hardware, and sometimes the software has adapted to your hardware. Like some, has a crazy scoliosis too, in a spine. And so his software might've adapted to that restriction or constraint and have adapted to perform really well with that. And so I think it's our job as performance coaches to figure out, you know, what is truly limiting and what is, what makes them unique and what makes them good. And then, slightly improve what they already have. And not change what makes them great. Right. And I think that's, that's not an easy process, but, but in, in fitness, it's like we, we have to look at every single variable and then look at their game and figure out what is truly limiting. And what's actually making them great. And then, you know, create a program based on that and not change you can't change DNA, you can't change genetics. And sometimes if you change the hardware, it can change the software. And then in a detrimental way,

terry: 51:51

I know you asked for a universal truth in golf. I mean, the universal truth is that, you know, the club delivery is. You know, sacrosanct is, it's like, if you change, like I said, something really simple, like your body alignments and for the world's best players, they weren't going to square the club face up in the same way. And you know, how do you know to tell Rory to stand like Rory and Dustin Johnson, the sunlight Buster Johnson with absolute certainty, right? Cause there's another level, right? It's like easiest cough out in the world probably is to say what I want to swings differently. but the reality is like, you know, how do you make those decisions with absolute certainty that you're going to tell someone to be different from the norm? And you know, you've got to stand behind that because that's not very popular in our business people. When I really, you know, I was just watching on the. Instagram, you know, Tommy Fleetwood, trying to return his swing to be more neutral, which, you know, he, he wasn't, when he was doing his best, you know, like Sam's trophy, you know, they, they tend to roll the club a little bit to the inside. And when that happens, the lead arm separates from the chest clip, goes a little inside and, you know, just that simple thing, you know, my opinion for somebody who plays a test is having a slightly strong grip style. you know, the more neutral it is the more see. So I think we've

leo: 53:05

sufficiently scared away any, any golf instructors that aren't going to put in the work, you know, you're on the spot yet. I was like, wait, I don't even know what I'm talking about. No, it's, it's actually like, it's, it's when you, when you think about it, it's funny because we talk about zeitgeists Geist and I'll never forget, where my game changed when I was at IMG, actually. And I talk about

terry: 53:24

the golf instruction at the time

leo: 53:26

where I was, I grew up in west, Texas and El Paso, and I learned, I was always like a low, like low, like burning draw into everything. And I got there and I was probably a plus three, 16 year old and hitting these low hooks and everybody in there, I looked at Casey Wittenberg hitting this like boring little baby fade, like all day long and David Gosset and Charles Howell was there and I got there and I remember never forget it. Like Gary Gilchrist looked me in the eye, watched me hit a bunch of balls, like exactly where I want. He was like on point low, low hook. All day long, trying to pull wedges from a hundred yards, like spin them back 15 feet to the hole. And he looks at me, he goes, you're going to never play college golf with you. Can't get a high fade. And I'll it ruined my golf game for the rest of my life. I think to be honest with you, like, I think that there like destroyed my confidence and I think I'd never recovered from that. And it's, it's so interesting. And I don't want to throw Gary under the bus here because I mean, he doesn't remember that, but I was 16 first few days at IMG and I'm like, I'm like played a few practice rounds with Casey. I was like out there and I'm like, man, I'm just as good as everybody here. And I could beat anybody. Like I had that in my mind and I was such a, I was the best kid in El Paso as the best kid in west Texas. Like, and I knew like when I went there, I was like, I just want to be around the best so that I can really reinforce my. And the first thing he looks at it and he goes, you're going to never play college golf. You can't play a high hyphen. You're not going to be able to play the courses. And I remember just like, I just, the rest of my golf career, high school and college was trying to, like,

terry: 54:59

I was always lost and I'm still kind of lost to this day, but it's so

leo: 55:02

interesting to that PR that how much language matters and how much, what we say matters. And it seems like it's so much easier to mess someone up and destroy their competency needs to reinforce someone's

terry: 55:12

competence. Yeah. I mean, talk about site guys to get in there. you know, I guarantee you going to go, Chris today is a better coach than he was then. Right. Which people, you know, even David led better or other than a Jim McLean. You know your name, these guys that, you know, still teaching, you know, at a high level, they have the sort of baggage of, of their reputation and what have you. And they've been swished away and you like those guys, and they're good. I mean, to get to the top of the field, back to the top 100 questions you have to, you you're, you you're doing your best every day, but you know, the tools available at that time. I mean, that's the scary thing. I think we had a dark age when it was video based. I mean, at least, you know, Gary's a player. I will say that he was talking about it from a shot-making standpoint, but, you know, the video age was, was designed to make a golf swing look better. It was, in my opinion, any good for a few people I'm not, not really helpful. I mean, the, the graves of people that try to make this swing look Knoll, it's pretty bad, you know, nowadays if you take, so what Mike and I do in ultimate golf lesson programs, we teach teachers how to do assessments. And as a consequence, we teach them that different styles of swing give different clubs, deliveries, and, you know, let's say there's just three, you know, you're more like a down and left or up and right. Or a neutral. then, you know, if you, if you just choose the wrong bull flight for your golf swing, it ruins your also on some level, right? So if you go, okay, I am Rory my, Sergio Garcia, you know, I have this flat bowl. And you don't change anything else except to say, Hey, Rory, Rory, you've got to hit it higher. Right. And you don't allow him to change his songs. Now he's going to add something in his golf swing to, to make that, both that happen. So it's, it's actually kind of interesting how a watch monitors at some point, you remember I say, in the technological phase, the early in the phases, like, It's dangerous because you know, everybody has to do this is the statement when the new technology comes out, that's the scary part. And so there's enough people who've been put into the graveyard that you go, you know, probably shouldn't have done that. And, so you have life one's going to hit up on it and, and hit a high draw. Right. You know, sort of the launch moments or age, because that's going to make the bulk of the first of this. But, you know, in my case that would make sense the trees, if I did it without changing my aim. So I personally do better at aiming, right. And hitting up high pull draw versus aiming straight and trying to hit it hydro starting to the right of my aim. Whereas they would, Dustin Johnson's opposite. Right. He naturally stops the ball right. Of his aim, therefore aiming while left, sort of it made it easier for him pivot a little bit straighter. So, so I think, you know, the simple thing like chest alignment can, can ruin a golf swing, a simple thing, like, you know, Pre prescribing the wrong both light, you know, because again, the ball flight and the environment external to us is actually part of the golf swing. Right. And you know that, cause when you get a whole like, you know, there's water on the left and out of balance on the right, you know, good luck trying to do the same swing or congratulations, you trained yourself in that environment to do the right swing. Right. And so, you know, all of these external factors, to your point in the wind, you know, they sort of have an effect on the golf swing, right. Not really matched up. Then you have to do some weird shit to make that.

leo: 58:25

We talked about XITE guys. It's like, I think about back at my time being 16 years

terry: 58:30

old and seeing like everybody wanted to swing like David

leo: 58:32

Goslin and he had just won the USA amateur. And I remember it, it was like David gossip, David Dawson, and then Ty Tryon just qualified for the PGA tour.

terry: 58:39

Same time, like 2000.

leo: 58:42

I was a kid. I remember I was like, I want to I'm behind all. I thought I was like, I was like, I'm missing out like Thai trans, already qualified for the PGA. You know, I don't sound like David gossip. Like I remember being an insecure 16 year old and I had like graded teachers. I had bill Aschenbrenner, who was rich beams, coach and JP Hayes's. And like, I was in a good environment of great golfers and I had the right guidance. Actually, if I look back, I wish I'd never done IMG, but it would out, we go to build this business. But I had like where it was like west, Texas golfers teaching me how to play the game at the right level. And, and just playing you really focused on fundamentals and little small things and letting me play my game, we never talked sweet, really most of my childhood. And then, and then go in there and being like, I got to swim like David gossip and I got to hit high. And that was like the end of the, I think, and I just bumbled my way through high school and college golf from then on. And, and I'm now looking thinking of 16 year olds looking at, you know, and like Matthew Wolf and like how different the mindset is around the swing and then fitness, like you said, launch monitors and zeitgeists again. And obviously the, we were producing great golfers the whole time, but I just think about being 16 today and looking at Matt Wolf, I mean, I slowed down

terry: 59:56

his swing the other day and I was like, oh my God, there's some

leo: 59:59

crazy stuff going on here at American express. And it's like, with that being said, are there, like, there are no tolerances, there are no outlines for aesthetics, really. I mean,

terry: 1:00:09

as long as that's why it's

leo: 1:00:10

like happened so fast. And if you couldn't have impact analysis, I mean, it's changed. It's changed the

terry: 1:00:15

game completely. Yeah, I've got three, three answers. sort of to what you just said again, if you look at the wave of technology early in the wave of launch monitors, we were all being told to hit up and hit draws. You know, I think in hindsight, that's made some veterans some worse. now at the other end of the spectrum, you know, you've got people like Matt Wolf, coming out who have been validated by launch monitors because you know, now the, the, the, the metric that people pay attention to is a lot closer to the outcome of the game. Right? So both line will have it versus, you know, you have to look like David gossip, for example. Right? So, so I would say, you know, the, one of the biggest things for young coaches to understand is, is how closely does it, you know, line up to the outcome. And if you trying to make someone's takeaway, look better without any idea of how that's going to affect clubs. So then you're really teaching abstract, you know, of golf. It's not, you know, if I'm teaching takeaways because I'm trying to change impact, and I will communicate, this is going to change your impact like this, because at the end of the day, you know, I should go and play it the other day, the sports box. And he's like, that's amazing. You know, it wasn't tell you, I said, well, Gary or your you've got to move an inch more towards the target. you know, when he was hitting it, fat talking about low point control, I mean that was, you know, ultimate, major winning whatever. and I said, Gary, you're going to move towards the target, earlier or whatever it was. And he's like, I love it. He said, all these teachers talking about the bikes running, you know, good players, you know, we want to know about the, you know, how to get the club on the ball. So that was really, you know, that's an interesting piece, but so now you go to the Matt Wolf, I think is swearing. You know, he's proven to have a ton of speed. And, you know, as he's growing up, he's winning and dominating. I mean, it's his secret player. So I think, you know, having a technology validate his performance was a different phase of, about, about teaching industry. In some level, I think in the end watch monitors will allow people to, you know, go back to sewing a much more, uniquely. And if you look at the tornado, there's definitely more unique swings. And there was, you know, 10 years ago, let's say, which is partly why speeds go up, because speed goes up when your, you move according to your physical function, right. Versus, you know, trying to constrain yourself to look like David gossip. There's no way in the world. You would have been as fast as you can. Right. And so that's where we go. You got to use it, not fix it because everything you fixed against your nature is going to cost you X number of, you know, Al's power. And depending, you know, in order that you can play the game and you might be a genius at playing the game, right. You know, you might have all these breaking message mechanisms and redirecting things going on and downswing to make the backswing look like Adam stall, David Gusto, whoever it is for a lot of people is, is, is very damaging because that's not the way that the body moves. I mean, Matt Wolf moves exactly. Like Matt Wolf should move. I mean, if you look at, if you put your hand out like this and you hinge your wrist, flection extension, if you turn your hand over, like this is going to hinge more shutdowns. And he grips it more this way in his arm folds this way, it was, we have an arm fold test, which is probably the number one predictor of what happens to the upper bottom, the arms face, everything else. So he does exactly what he should do. He has a ton of external rotation. So when he comes down and it shallows, you know, and then he doesn't have a ton of, you know, rotation through the ball. So instead of, you know, opening up like, you know, calling mark out, it's more of a pushup and release. So, you know, those two very different right. In terms of their characteristics. And you say that, Matt, you've got to, you know, swing like Colin or calling you go to something like Matt, obviously both of them will get worse. Right. And so to the credit of the people around them, they've, you know, they've done a good job of matching them up to be who they are. I

leo: 1:03:55

remember telling this, I'm curious on this topic with you. Actually, I remember talking to a lot of my early students about the. Where they would say, well, I've have all these bad habits and I've been swinging this way for so long when someone did that to me too, like taught me something that messed me up and, and they would say, I wish I could just kinda wipe my brain and like, kind of start over and, and, you know, I'd say like, yeah, me too. We'd go. Like, we'd go. Like, well, I would, the way that I'd explained to him, I said like your golf

terry: 1:04:21

swing and it's like a painting.

leo: 1:04:24

And so you've been, you painted it and then you're painting over it over and over it. But you see, you're not, you can't get a new canvas. So that's like the way that the biomechanics works and you're no biology, like you're just layering. Like you're never going to get rid of what happened when you were 16. It's almost that you're just layering on top of it. What are your thoughts about like, kind of cleaning up movement and making new movement kind of maybe eliminating those

terry: 1:04:48

old thoughts? That's a really good question. And when someone says this is a good question, It's because they have a good answer. I have a good onset for that. we are constrained by our body, right? I mean, if you add external constraints, like, you know, you grew up in the wind, you know, whatever, but we're constrained by a body were limited by, you know, or accelerated by the clubs we use or the environment we plan or, you know, the context of what we do. but we are constrained by a body now. you know, when we teach, topless, especially, the things that have been holding them back. So we have a series of tests that we do to find out what their natural limits are and, you know, the most important one, like I said, it's the way that unfolds trailer and falls in the backswing and the way they use. They love about it. So like the, the timing and, how they use the force and the lower body. So if we can return, if we give that to a talk later, so you should grip, you know, weaker stronger, whenever that pretty much within one or two balls, they'll hit it like an unbelievable difference and they'll go, Ooh, that's what, that's the way I used to hit it before I got changed. And to your point, like, you know, to a more pretty slang to, you know, launch monitor pleasing swaying to a pressure plate, pleasing, swinging, whatever it is. So again, it comes back to there being the thing that made them change was abstracts. It's their golf, right? And so, you know, when we get them back to their personal DNA, I mean, you know, those from trying to change people's swings, right? I mean, you've had clients for 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 years. And if you look at them, I mean, if you look at, you know, any tour, I mean, the swings really don't CHAM who's really changed their swing in the last 10 years. Think about big changes. Like. And, and got better. I mean, Faldo was like extreme example that, you know, sort of led to a generation of people trying to make the swings pretty, which didn't help. But I mean, if you think about it, you think about Jordan Speith, you know, I asked you what ball flights did you hit when you hit it your best. Right. And he goes by tended to hit this sort of flat cup. And, you know, I think he sort of chased distance a little bit too much trying to get his hydraulic myopia. And also I explained before, you know, I had some strong voice around how the choice of both light can affect your golf swing. but if you look at what he's talking about, now, he's talking about how he's trying to return to his old fields and his old stuff. Right. So he's trying to do, you know, like all swimming archeology and work out, but the reality is if we, you know, we assess people. Yes. You know, for sure what their style is and returning to your style. It was really good. Right. But let's say, you know, in your case you would have hidden low drawers and, you know, you just couldn't hit fade, but you went to play, you open the Olympic club that you need to fight. Right. and I think if you look at mountain time, right before you went down the same rotary, so I'm not one of them. Well, and he says they had a inferiority complex where, you know, if you can't draw, then, you know, you, you, you're basically not number one in the world. Right? So he went out and rebuild his whole golf swing to hit a draw. Now we test and we believe that people have different groups. And the right hand trail hand grip is the thing that most affects your club delivery, because it's obviously connected to the club and he has the grip. That's a bit weaker than, you know, he tests out to be, which means he's going to fade every ball. So, so he has a fake grip, but, you know, potentially he could have just closed the songs, you know, to get as pop up to the right songs is basically the biggest effect on the path. And your case, you know, you needed to learn a sharp, not swipe, right. And, you know, potentially who's to say you shouldn't just open your stance and move the ball up and done the same thing. And the board had gone higher with a fade. Right? So there you go, Gary, what do you think of that? But, you know, you're 16 years old and extremely influenced. So what happens is, you know, the path that these, these top players go down is, you know, influenced by a number of things. sometimes like, you know, DJ, a bunch of guys are out there trying to flex their left wrist because DJ was willing and wants. So they're all doing that, John Ron. So we had a, a phase in the history of golf where we had two guys with flex left for us no more in the world. So obviously everyone does it. Right. But they don't. Right. I just saw posted by someone saying that. solid tourist actually extends his wrestling the way down, which is totally normal. It is a different type of player needs. He needs to react to a more open or weaker face to do his release than Dustin does. So, you know, so the point being is that, the scale of the changes, it doesn't need to be that big, you know, and you can learn new shots with understanding how to create shots versus having to rebuild. The answer really is that people need to stick to their personal, you know, swing DNA in the first place. Just hard to do when you're 16 and influential in your case, it's hard to do when you have the most cut risk on tour and Dustin Johnson's world, number one, you know, even at that level that they're doing crazy shit, you know, in terms of, you know, completely, I mean, they're multimillion dollar business and they're making changes based on absolutely no information, you know, there's no like, which is where again, you guys would work with, Colin and, and his team. And, you know, it just seems like he makes just great decision after a great decision after a great decision as a, you know, golf businessman, right. Versus not some crazy, you know, out of right field reaction to the guy that just beat him. So, you know, classic stories, the Italian, I forget his name. He won like three times on the European tour, before his 21. Mateo manifesto on a Sarah one. I want to say like three times before I was like 21, 22. And he played with the right macro in the last round of the BMW, PJ, which is a really big tournament and a new one, you know, Rory bond. Like he does everybody, at that point, decided to change his game. And, you know, he went from being, you know, potentially one of the best, up and coming players. You know, I think it was a player. You just have to stay in the game. Right. And you have all these life learnings you'd go through. But every time you change, it's funny, you start on this, the Kenner

leo: 1:10:47

again, Arnold Palmer, Arnold Palmer had it right. The whole time we were swaying. Right. I mean, it's like at the end of the day, that's what you're saying. It's like, know what your swing is. And I think, yeah, it's a huge insight. I mean, 70 by a stereos, David Toms, I mean, the list goes on and on and on. And,

terry: 1:11:03

you know, semi used to find like Matt Wolf when he was winning, like opens early in his life. If you go, there's a golf. Savvy swing through the, is he literally swung like Matt Wolf, and then you can see the dynamics diminish as his career goes on to the point where he swung it, like Nick Faldo and had a lot less pomp and hurt himself. Right. So, so the consequences of a mismatch swing are, you know, pain and less speed because it's not your DNA. Right. You don't know how you're going to square the face. You have to down-regulate everything to, to hit straight. And that in the end is, is definitely, you know, injurious,

leo: 1:11:38

sorry to interrupt. I feel like, you know, we've no, no, I know. And I'm, you know, I love it. It's just like, what the fuck are we doing then? Right. Like, you know what I mean? Because if it's, you don't have really one example of a swing change that's been successful. I mean, I'm sure there are obviously small ones that are really. You know, like Colin, his formula with Rick and, you know, we're on his team and we're making the decisions with them now is like very, very, well-educated very, very, efficient and not changing something that doesn't have to change. I'm making small, small, small improvements, you know, from the physical side to the swing side from eight years old, Rick and Colin has worked on rhythm and tempo and playing on the course 80% of the time, a very like straightforward kind of formula if you'd like. And when I see Rick and him work the same drills, it's the same working on the same PA if it's technical, it's the same drills. So that leads me to think about like, okay, so Terry, if you are a coach, theoretically, you have the same golfer and they're at a certain level they're decent. Like they can swing the club. One program is you teach them technically only. And one program is all skill-based coaching with random practice gamification. Right. Which player is going

terry: 1:13:11

to perform the best because we have all these examples

leo: 1:13:15

of, of natural players that don't change ever like Jack Nicholas on a Palmer, right? Like they have the same coach, basically their whole life. Like what are we doing then? And do you believe

terry: 1:13:28

go through the, I mean, if he goes through the, like the top 20 in the world, I mean, they either have, you know, coach or they have the coach they had for a very long time. Right. So I think just like this, you get to the tour and you know, you obviously have a very functional swipe on you right now. You know, that's fine. Let's say Martin Koma, for example, it just his cuts and you want to add drawers. You need to learn new shots to become a better golfer. You don't need to rebuild your golf swing. So that's really, I'm just saying, you know, there's red flag when someone tries to completely rebuild or make themselves look like somebody else or, you know, so, so that would be like the red flag golf instruction for me, you know, the they're making really big changes, to that technique, even though, you know, he'd got to weld them one. So, you know, in my opinion, if you've gotten into the top 20 in the world, you probably shouldn't be rebuilding a golf swing. You should be learning new shots. So you should be doing things to understand what you do when you do it well. So it's almost like you have your own best practices and that includes technical components. Right? So what, and that's where, you know, when I see really good players, I mean, they keep, they keep diaries and the, and they're very professional about, you know, the practices and things like that. So from a technical standpoint, I'm not saying. You know, I'm S I'm absolutely a technical coach. And I do teach people to move in the way that they are designed. And we have a very structured way of testing that, and it's very experiential and we explain it and it's pretty obvious that, you know, it moves more naturally in a certain way than the other. So I was just saying don't, if it, you know, if your player is playing at a reasonably high level, that they're more right than wrong. And so if they're going to change it to make it look like Adam Scott, they're in trouble. I said, Jim, Furich my Wolf or whatever. Now, there is always, you know, environments, you know, so why do we swing? Like we do. There's always environments and things that make us get off a little bit. Right? So these changes are pretty small to your point. you know, let's say you go and play in the open, you play the scholarship and the open two weeks in a row. you know, you play in the wind, that's cold and you come back and you're playing a course, which requires you to hit bombs and launch it and hit it really high. You might have changed your nature in those few weeks and the responsibility of the player and the team is to get back to the game that you need as quickly as possible. Right? And so, you know, some understanding of your personal fundamentals is, is necessarily that could be technical, right? It could be a decision that you make, but you've had, you know, two weeks of neuro neurobiology of playing in the cold weather swing, might've gotten shorter and you're hitting it low. So you probably put the ball back and open your stance. So now you go back and you sort of need to need to understand where you came from. So I would say, you know, technically that's all technical. I just think that, you know, making wholesale changes at that level is I just don't see it people. So I'm not saying you don't make changes. I'm saying, if you look at people who has made a really gigantic change and played better, I just don't see it. yeah. So it's about being extremely

leo: 1:16:23

conscientious and very subtle and understanding and actually getting as much information as you can before you distributed the distributed

terry: 1:16:31

knowledge. Yeah. And I think we look at the players, as, as, as they, they have the ability to communicate their sort of intelligence. I think there's, intelligence to golf. As you know, you talked to Jordan Speith or column mark, our Roy macro, even, you know, like a Dustin Johnson, who's got a lot of golf intelligence. They have, you know, a very intelligent approach to the game, generally speaking, but can easily get off track, right? So you think it off track then, you know, they need some technical reorganization and that kind of comes back to the, sort of the block practice versus variable, which is a very simplistic sort of thing. That was a really good book. Rick Jensen easier said than done was there was a really good book. love is great. And so that book answers that question in a, it depends way, and it depends where you're on the slope of things, right? So at the top here, you're competing in, in your major championship or whatever that might be and playing without too much thought about how to do it more like what to do. And then you go back down the ladder of, I can't quite do that. I'll go down a level, you know, what is that? And that was playing in a smaller tournament. You know, what's the next level, well play with your friends, you know, for some money, it was the next level, play with your friends next, the whole plan, your own next level, dream ranch, you know, whatever. So there's this whole thing. And I think that insinuates. If you're on the dry ranch, you know, probably is like the basic level is you're probably looking to make some sort of technical change to hit the outcome that you want. Then you go, well, now I need to test it on some level. So one step beyond that is games, right? So it's a pretty rudimentary level, I would say still. And then you go play on the golf course and you know, which is naturally a variable game. we have sort of a bridge between that. and so I think, you know, depending on how consistently you're creating outcomes that you want, you know, you'd go more towards the sort of gamification and, you know, outcome based strategy. But, you know, I do believe that there is a place to understand the person's technique and, you know, get back to their personal DNA, you know, possibly police resistance and also speed. I mean, speed comes much more naturally when you swing your style. so if you find you're losing speed, you're getting some injuries, you know, But, you know, you're still able to deliver the game. Right. Then that's probably an indication that you've lost your technique a little bit, and you're starting to be very outcome-based and not tool your personal DNA based in my opinion, I'm only 20 years into it.

leo: 1:18:52

We're realizing that we could go for three, four hours or jealous. Tara, thank you so much for joining us is awesome. And maybe a little bit let's do it again so we can continue because we definitely didn't get covered. I think I got two fact buck questions done, so it was awesome to have you

terry: 1:19:14

on. So

leo: 1:19:20

why don't you finish up Leah with those questions?

terry: 1:19:23

I'll give you a.

leo: 1:19:24

in a, in a theoretical world, you have the opportunity to play any course. You want, you have to pick one person to get a lesson from one person to play 18 holes with and one person to have a beer with afterwards. So one course in three individuals,

terry: 1:19:39

that's a good one. it might, I mean, I think the best coach in the world is Mike Adams. So he'll, he'll prepare me. And that will be very entertaining at the same time I played my dad, who had a beer is a tough one. I don't know. There's a lot of really cool people that have beers with, yeah, it tough. I used to what course. Oh yeah. fish. so that was pretty, I played last year and it was pretty my favorite. I don't know all my other friends that hate me now. I really like seminar. It's like an unbelievable day. So, that's awesome. So

leo: 1:20:07

that's maybe have a, maybe have a beer with Mike and your dad.

terry: 1:20:11

That would be, we're going to do that this summer. We're going to stay open. That'd be very entertaining. So two guys that like to last awesome.

leo: 1:20:20

Well, we really appreciate it joining us and we look forward to meeting in person again and, and continue

terry: 1:20:25

the conversation. Yeah, I appreciate it. I don't want to do a shameless plug for our coaches location. We still have time, but Mike, can I do, online coach education, which gives people the ability to learn how we do matchups and generate speed. So we have a speed seminar coming up. It's called ultimate golf lessons.com and that's, you know, session McKinsey, Mike Duffy, Dr. Kwan, Myself, my cat Adams, Phil Cheatham is going to be talking about sports books three days. So we got some real brain boxes, but we've got my Mike and I are sort of skin in the game to teach you how to put on the rubber on the road. So ultimate golf.

leo: 1:21:02

Awesome. Thank you for everything you've done for the game. I appreciate it, man. Look forward to seeing

terry: 1:21:06

you on, on Monday to see that. Okay. Drinking some wine. Thanks Terry.

leo: 1:21:12

Thank you, Tara. Take care guys.