Ep. 33 | OD Vincent on Coaching College Golf, Transitioning Careers, and the Lessons He Learned Throughout

OD Vincent joins us on this episode.

OD spent much of his career in golf, as the Head Men’s Golf Coach at Duke University, UCLA, and the University of Washington (UW); Sr. Associate Athletic Director at UW; and Executive Director on the PGA Tour. He is now the Senior VP of Golf, Club Management & Recreation for Montage International.

In this episode, we learn about his experience becoming a high-performing athlete and the unique lessons he learned from his dad; coaching, recruiting, and managing high-level college athletes; the transitions in his career; and more.

Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
Follow Leo: @leo_ugp
Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
Follow Leo: @leo_ugp
Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Transcript

Mac 0:17

Welcome to the urban golf podcast. Mack Todd here, here with Leo Rooney.

Leo 0:22

How's it going? Mac,

Mac 0:24

you're just trying to sound pro over here. We've been doing this podcast for a while now, so I'm just testing different things out, seeing kind of what, what sticks and what doesn't. So, I'm going for a little Walter Cronkite and this one.

Leo 0:33

Yeah, it's still hard. I think we need like another, a hundred to make us sound really natural.

Mac 0:40

Oh, man, it sounds like the Scandinavian work ethic there. I think I'm good. I'm just going to kind of, kind of play with what I got.

Leo 0:48

Did you hear by the way, how is speaking of radio? You know, voices Howard stern is $130 million contract or something like that with Sirius XM, just to talk. I don't get it, but I mean, I use a Sirius XM subscriber.

Mac 1:06

Probably

Leo 1:07

I've

Mac 1:08

got, I've got way too many subscriptions. I don't even know what I'm paying for at this point.

Leo 1:11

Yeah. I, you

Mac 1:13

know, I think it's, I think it's still part of my, like 2002 Chevy Tahoe that I had in high school that had came with Sirius XM radio. Yeah.

Leo 1:21

Yeah. It's definitely a thing Howard stern never gotten into it, but it's a thing.

Mac 1:26

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I've never really actually been someone to kind of listen to talk shows and talking heads and things like that. So, and I've tried, I'm not a huge podcast fan it's just for is it's something, you know, that, in a lot of ways, I, and I think it's kind of interesting. It's, it's how, we're how we're digesting content. I mean, I like to read a lot, so I like to read people's transcripts of what they said. But podcasting is an interesting format. And I think it's something that it's something that it's, it's crazy how popular Scott and you hear about Rogan and Howard stern and people's conversations being, you know, and, and how, you know, it's a lot of work obviously to build one, but how these people can actually build names for themselves and do and do that. It's pretty incredible.

Leo 2:08

Yeah. But we've been really enjoying doing the podcast. It's been awesome. all these people that we've talked to have been incredibly enlightening, so.

Mac 2:19

Yeah, it's kind of like, dude, it's like, it's like playing golf versus watching golf, you know? It's like,

Leo 2:23

yeah. Yeah. I like watching golf too, but I like podcasts. So it makes sense.

Mac 2:28

it's true.

Leo 2:29

This week we have ODI Vincent on and Mac, you know, di go way back.

Mac 2:34

Yeah. Yeah. He's he's been a big part of the success of UDP, and doing it in a way just by just providing mentorship and, and recognizing the intention of, of what I was trying to do early on. I think we met that he was at, um, you know, running the Northern trust, open at Riviera and, We somehow fell into, an opportunity. the, the, the, one of the lead sponsors of the clubhouse dropped out. and, they had the whole ballroom, like the whole grand ballroom available, and, offered it to us for like 12 grand for the week. And they were like, can you fill this, you know, 5,000 square foot space up, and provide an expense for the PGA tour for all the VIP ticket holders. and so we shut down, we, I put it in and you have three weeks. And so we, uh, you know, we got simulator like delivered that could be put together, like in, in, you know, in two days of custom frame, all this stuff, Putting green, you know, all this great experience got stretched out. you get to see your numbers on swing catalyst and, and your track man numbers, you create a, you know, a coach now profile and we'd create this whole experience. And then you get to hit the simulator on, on pebble and try to win a brand new set of Nero's custom built the whole thing. and so this is like really cool experience for the PGA tour. That we somehow provided. I closed UDP down for a week, lost a bunch of money paid to be there. And for the whole week we just crushed it and it was right before you started Leo. and we would, you know, and, and, you know, we were there from four in the morning until like 10 o'clock at night for, from Wednesday to Sunday, providing this experience to. Thousands of people that were going to go watch this PGA tour event. And it was, it was amazing to like open up the balcony and like see the first hole there at Riv and, in the morning, and I have conversations with all the team. We were about 20 at the time. And so, you know, it was just, it was, it was a really cool growth experience. And so I did that deal to get the ballroom with Odie and got to know him then. And, Brandon Goethals and we worked for him and we, we chatted about UDP and kind of. Somehow got in there and then it, it actually was great for the brand. And we grew a lot after that. And during those times we know that he talked and, yeah, he's been, he's been there ever since introduced me to Kelly, James to Derek Freeman. And that's how we got in there with the UCLA golf team. he's been, I could go on and on. I mean, this podcast could have been four hours, 10 hours, with how interconnected it is. And I can't say enough about how much Odie Vincent's like been a guiding, a guiding light and a pushing force for UDP and, and, you know, from a great place.

Leo 5:03

Yeah. And, and, we didn't even really have the time to go over, kind of his, his, his resume, but like he, you know, he played at university of Washington. He ended up, getting into coaching and coached at UCLA Duke, university of Washington. And then he went into the private sector, worked for the PGA tour, and now he works for the montage group and he's the director of golfer, all of the montage, locations. So really, really interesting person that have been through a lot and has so many great advice. So many wisdoms that I really loved in this episode.

Mac 5:46

Yeah. And he played in the British open

Leo 5:48

shot, six to seven I'm Muirfield in 92. I was in the, in, in contention. So he's, he was a player

Mac 5:55

still. Pretty good. Yeah, dude. He's my, he's my favorite. he's my favorite member guest partner. So, well, everyone enjoyed this podcast again, like I, we could talk about Odie Vincent forever, but just listen for yourself and, and enjoy all podcasts as well. Thank you. Take care.

Leo 6:18

All right. ODA, Vincent. Welcome to the podcast.

OD 6:21

Thanks for having me.

Leo 6:22

How are you doing? And what's happening in the desert?

OD 6:25

Desert is desert great. A golf course has just closed for overseeding, but, you know, we are heading into the high season. So excited about that deserts. I love the desert. So all good kids are, you know, in zoom school. but doing well and life's good. You

Leo 6:41

grew up in Palm Springs, right?

OD 6:42

I went to high school down here, or, for halfway through my sophomore year and then graduated here at Palm Springs high school. So we were here for the school year. but it's always felt like home to

Leo 6:51

me. Right. And then is that where kind of high level golf started for you in high school? In PA?

OD 6:58

Yeah. I think if you could call high school golf high level, it felt that way at the time. That's for sure. I came from a pretty small town up in Lake Tahoe on the Nevada side. So, you know, a high school with 2000 kids in it. you know, our team ended up being real successful on the high school scene, if you will. I mean, that seemed like big time to me, going into it. So, so yeah, it was a good time in life.

Leo 7:20

Was there any like really good players that ended up playing professionally from that area at that time?

OD 7:25

So I'm on my team at Palm Springs, high school, Tim Wilcox, guy named Roger Dibel. Those guys both played professional golf. Roger played on, you know, with the, the Korn ferry equivalent at the time. I think it was the Nike tour. And when he played on it, maybe even the Hogan tour, but, But he played for a while. We had, we had four or five kids play, you know, college golf, again on a, on a team. we actually had at the time there wasn't girls golf and we had, we had a female that played in our number six spot. it was six count five back in those days. So, yeah, it was a look. I mean, everyday I went to practice. I wanted to be the best player and, and I had to bring it all to, to achieve that. So that was a, it was good.

Leo 8:02

So now it's kind of full circle. You're back in the desert and it feels kind of like home and then that's cool.

OD 8:07

Yeah.

Leo 8:08

So after high school, how how'd you end up in a university of Washington? Like how was your golf career early on there?

OD 8:13

Yeah. Good question. So, like I said, we, we had some success down here, so. Fortunate enough to be recruited. I was recruited actually, and this is where Mack and I first sort of connected. And one of the schools that recruited me was Texas El Paso, and cricket, mud cricket mush was the coach down there. And, and the guy did, they finished second in the NCAA, one year. And, and, you know, Cameron don't was on my recruiting trip along with Robert Gomez, for example. And you know, we were at the sun bowl and I think they beat Georgetown and basketball. And I mean, I caught. Hell Paso, unlike the greatest weekend in history and still unfortunately, you know, I couldn't see myself there. So I, um, so I chose Washington, which at the time didn't even have a full-time coach. My coach was the head pro at Broadmore, a golf club in town, a local club. And you know, his assistant pros would be our assistant coaches and take us on half the trips and. It was kind of that era of college golf, but, I love Seattle. I love my experience at Washington, um, was in a fraternity and just, you know, tried to grow up as much as possible. my family's all from Washington, so it was fairly natural for me, but it was off the beaten path at that time for. For from golf path, that's for sure. but you know, we had some success there through, throughout it at different times, so it's sort of inconsistent, but our, our good golf was really good winning the conference championship and doing those things. So, so it was an awesome experience.

Mac 9:40

you know, I think when I think of you, I think of like, just it's your whole life has been golf, so it's it's and I, and you know, I've been privileged enough to sit down and, you know, have dinner with your family and meet your dad. And so. Can you talk a little bit about, how you got into golf and your relationship with your father?

OD 9:57

Yeah. Yeah, sure. I'll try to not take up the entire area. No, no. so I grew up in Lake Tahoe. My dad is, friggin from Seattle, but he was a guy who graduated from college, turned pro played on, on the tour when it was like seasonal tours. There was four different seasons back in those days. ended up, you know, getting married at the age, a lot of. People got married back then in the early twenties. And then along came me not, not far after. And, he needed to, you know, have some more steady income then, then chasing the dream. And, so he started as a assistant golf pro and, and then, moved down to Nevada when I was five. And, and got the head pro job at Edgewood Tahoe, which is where I grew up in Edgewood was literally brand new at the time. There there's a trailer in the parking lot. And, like I said, on the Nevada side of the South shore, and I think my high school there had 200 kids in it total. So I mean, it's, it's pretty, pretty sleepy year-round existence, but at the same time, you know, and, and still to this day is true with the celebrity golf event. They have their, the biggest events they have. There have always been like back in the day of the show rooms. I mean, there's, you know, Elvis plays there and Sammy Davis jr. And I mean, just everybody you could think of in the entertainment world was all at the golf course in the summer. So I had this really interesting experience of growing up in a super, super small town. But, at the same time being exposed to some of the biggest things that you could be exposed to. I mean, I played golf with Sam Snead, when I was like 13. and all I thought about was beaten this old guy that I was playing with. Right. Yeah. It's that type of thing. So, so growing up there, it was great. I mean, Edgewood is a really good golf course, but I, you know, I would pick the range and, you know, and park the carts and, you know, just hang out there all day with my daddy. I would just leave it with him at four 30 or five in the morning, and then I'd go back at night and I had to find a way to fill up my day. So playing, you know, it's a super busy golf course, so I had to tee off, obviously first. And so I'd buzz around and I'd play 18 holes. And then I had to get back to the 10th tee before the second group made the turn. So I could play the back nine again. And then if you know, Edgewood at all, 14 comes back down, close to the clubhouse, and then I had to get to the 15th tee before that group did. And then I could go back and play number 17 and 18 again. So I had lots of golf in before about 9:30 AM. And like I said, trying to find a way to fill up the rest of the day. But, but the good news was I got this, I got the winter off. I mean, there's six feet of snow on the ground. So. Then we would ski all winter. So I think that break, you know, is why I'd never gotten burned out. And I can just go full throttle for, you know, there's a lot of Canadian geese up there. And if you've ever been in a Canadian geese, infested golf course, you know what those look like, as the spring melt comes along but once that cleared up, you just go full throttle until, you know, the snow had scrapped.

Mac 12:40

Was your dad, your dad, your coach.

OD 12:42

Yeah, he, he was, he still played a lot in those days. Todd, a lot. And, you know, he would sneak out in between that was a busy tee sheet. I mean, a very busy operation. So I mean, I'd get them at 10 minutes at a time, when he'd come out and, and taught me the game. So, I mean, and, and, and that's, that was amazing and I've never traded for anything, but they're also when you're the pros kid, I mean, then there's that whole, you know, probably self-imposed pressure that you put on yourself, like, well, you know, I better be, I better be good at the same time, so. so I, I think I, I loved competing first and golf was my, sort of expression of that. and then I sort of fell in love with the game. It was sort of it, I didn't like pick up a club and go, Oh my God. I mean, I, I love to ski as much as I love to play golf when I was young. But then I think over time, it's still increasing to that to this day is sort of my connection with and love for the game. But I loved growing up and just competing every single day.

Leo 13:34

What do you remember from the round with, with Snead? Cause that's,

Mac 13:37

obviously

OD 13:38

I remember he was super grumpy. he definitely did not want to be playing with a 13 year old kid and a couple other amateurs and like Tata that day. but I also remember, the look in his eye, I mean that guy was, You could just tell how just fiercely confident he was in himself and, and, and playing, playing golf. I mean, he was all about it. And, I had a chance to buy a lot of guilt growing up, but, I think I didn't even know what that was. I mean, when I was 13 and here's a, but there's a bunch of senior guys in town. we hosted the senior open at Edgewood, later on in like 1985. but these guys were up for some casino outing or something like that. and so I obviously had heard of him and I knew that, you know, Sam sneak Sam, Steve, but. I didn't appreciate it until probably years later.

Leo 14:20

Yeah. It's funny. You say focus because it seems like such a, trivial thing, right? Like in, in sports, like, Hey, you need to focus. But I think when it comes back, every time when we talk about high performers is just a completely different level of, of, of focus that the best half. Is that, would you agree with that? Like obviously you've coached a lot of good, good players. How different is that like, cause it can look like someone is focusing, but it's a different thing when you see like a, you know, someone like that or, you know, a hall of Famer, it's a different type of focus.

OD 14:55

yeah, to me, I, it's a really, really insightful question, Leo. I would say that I can almost feel it more, more than see it. you know, I remember the first time that I met Curtis strange, and I mean that guy, when he walks into a room, I mean, I can just feel. Back-to-back us opens in a guy that's going to Pierce your heart or something like that, you know? So, and not in a bad way, but just you can feel the intensity and that's how Sam Snead was for sure. That's awesome.

Leo 15:18

Yeah. And that's obviously what tiger had even just affecting everyone around him. Right.

Mac 15:23

So as you, as you kind of, you know, learn the game from your dad, you know, some of the pro, how, how, how has that relationship evolved over time as you've gone through your career and, you know, gone from being a coach player to a coach, to being in business, what are kind of some of the biggest lessons you've learned from him? Cause I love that. That idea. And I'm the assistant pro that is now, you know, raising a son, that's the son of the pro. So, you know, I just want to get that insight. What did you learn from you, your dad, and what are you learning still today? And, you know, I was always fascinated when I talking to him, you know, how much synergy was there for me and, and, and seeing kind of what he's done with his career. So.

OD 16:01

you know, he has a lot of obviously great things and just, just principles and, you know, my dad always was big on me growing up. cause I, I definitely had a temper and like, all I was focused on, like I said, was, was, was beating whoever I was playing with growing up and, And he always told me, he said, look, people are going to remember the person that you are not the score you shot. I noticed nine holes. I played with Craig Stadler. For example, after he won the masters. Cause he, he, it was based up in Lake Tahoe and in an arena. and he would come out to Edgewood and play. And, and I chipped in like twice in nine holes. I'm sure he let me play the set of tees up. Right. I doesn't matter whatever. And I think I shot 34 or something on the back nine, I mean some ungodly career, nine holes. And he goes into the golf shop afterwards and tells my dad, he goes, don't ever pair me with this little shit. Yeah. And I don't know if I ever see him, you know, or, you know, or, or whatever. So, So that's how I approached it and he could see that and he's like, look, you want to be the best person you can possibly be. And you want to be aware of, of the other people in your group and how, and how they're playing and what's happening to them and how they feel, or if they have question or whatever it might be. And I didn't naturally do that competing. I naturally did that like in life, but I couldn't. I couldn't like shift gears and I couldn't play both sides when I was playing golf. So, you know, that was one of the first things that, that sticks with me. Obviously, my son now is 14. He's a baseball player, but you know, same type of thing. you know, on his team, just reminding him, obviously like the simple principles would be the best teammate and those kinds of things. So, So, you know, my relationship with my dad, I mean, he's my best friend. He's, you know, my mentor he's, you know, he's all of those things. and, and to your question, yeah, a Mac, that's developed it's that that relationship has evolved over time from, you know, being my. Teacher and, and the person that I wanted to impress the most to then, you know, almost a partnership in the, on the business side of things and definitely my closest advisor on the different, career choices and experiences that I've had. till now today he's 74 years old. His mobility, is, is, is much more limited than it's ever been. And then, and then seeing that transition now to my son and his, his relationship with him as his grandfather, And then me giving my father now the support that he gave to me, you know, it's kind of that whole full circle piece.

Mac 18:23

so in a lot of ways, like golf has been a platform for you guys' relationship around life, work, family, like everything, and yeah.

OD 18:31

w without a doubt that there's, there's no doubt. I mean, that's the way that, again, we, we sort of express that, I mean, he still. he he's, he's more into the competitive side of it today than, than, than I am. I mean, he's knows where everybody, all my former players and where they're doing and, you know, whatever and all these different things. And so, yes, it absolutely is a thread that, that's sort of the, the title bind.

Mac 18:53

I really, I find it fascinating too, like the idea that he was a player and then went into the assistant professional and for some of the listeners that we have that are inspired by our story, it's just. How much the game can give, if you're, if you're looking at the whole picture and I just hear this story and like looking at your career and what your dad did, you know what we're doing with UDP and just how much the game has to offer more than just actually playing it itself, but what it can do as a vessel for your career, for your future. If you're not just my OPIC about what's happening here, and that's thinking about your dad, how broad level, understanding and yourself to how, what a broad level understand you have at the game and how many different channels that can take

OD 19:30

you. Yeah. And I think Mac, again, not, not to, not to stay on this topic too long, but, I think that's one of the things when I first met you. And, since I've known now Leo and, and gotten to know so many folks in your organization and the culture that you've built in your team is built. That was one of the first things that I think that I was immediately drawn to, you know, with you and with UDP is, so it's not about. You know, the bottom line necessarily. I mean, it's about, it's about all those things, but what it's about is it's about making people better. It's about making our communities better. It's about giving an opportunity to, build a great organization. and it's about doing that through golf and, and that will never, ever, I mean, my, my. experience with you is that's never going to change as you UDP. That's just a core value. That's always going to be there. And that's just, that just seems so natural to me because that's just what I thought life was all about. It's like, Oh yeah, of course. That's, that's how it should be. But, but it's, it's unique in this day and age.

Mac 20:21

Well, and I think as we kind of walk through your career, cause I'd love to kind of go through it and kind of see your lessons along the way from as a player and then going through these different positions that you've been in, from working from the PGA tour to being an athletic director of a university to coaching and there's. So many different life lessons. I'm sure you've adopted that process, but how much, you know, the game has influenced you in that process and how much, you know, as you go along through it, how gives you a much more broad understanding of, of, of the impact that golf does have from coaching co you know, recruiting kids from high school and coaching them to then, you know, influencing it on a, on a macro business level. And, and, and you know, how, how interesting that whole process has been for you.

OD 21:02

But there's no doubt. I mean, it definitely is, has been consistent throughout and, and we can, we can get into some of those other things that we should. but I would say that, I mean, golf golf teaches you responsibility. Not number one. I mean, you're responsible for obviously all of, you know, everything that happens out there, but you're responsible at the end of the day for, for what you shoot. I mean, that number to the right, the right hand side of your name is that's your work for the day. Right. And you're measured every single day. and, and you know, one of my things when I was coaching, you know, and I made all kinds of mistakes growing up in, in, in, in, in processing this, but it finally came to me that this is actually fairly simple when we complicate everything way too much. Cause every single event I've ever played in or been a part of the person that shot the lowest score has won every single one of them. Right. And the guys, they they're like, well, you know, I'm not going to, and I'm like, no, no, no, just process what I'm telling you. Okay. and don't tell me, Oh yeah. But while there's let's just, let's just, let's just get to the fact that the only thing that really matters is how many times you hit it. And if you hit it fewer times, you're going to win. And if you win, there's going to be good things coming your way. So why don't we work on the things that are going to produce that versus working on your, the story you're telling me and all of these other things. So, and I try to apply that same principle to anything and everything I do, and try to find out, okay, what, what are we really all about? And what, what is the, what is the purpose of the goal? And let's not get distracted on, on the, on the noise and the stories accompanying that.

Mac 22:27

So how did you Odie, how did you get into coaching? I mean, I know you were really started co head coaching really young. So how did that transition from player to coach happened for you?

OD 22:36

Yeah, so. I played for a year after school. I listened to your podcast with Nico as well. And I remember that guy, he's a, he's quite a character. And that was, that was fun. Cause I could just, I could close my eyes and just imagine, his expressions. I didn't have my webcam, but, all of what that must've been like, but, some of his experiences in Europe as well, but I played over there for a year. And then, and you know, I had my ups and downs had, a really good experience in the, in the open championship at Muirfield that year, but then also had a lot of mis-cuts and a lot of, you know, a lot of train stations and a lot of, you know, $0 at the end of the week as well. but it was an amazing way to see the world. and then I came back and I started working in the golf business for OB sports. And, I would say. if my dad was, he'll, I'm sure listen to this, but if he was on with us right now, he would, he would be shaking his head in agreement, but was not super happy that I didn't want to go back and continue to play. Cause what, what kind of freedom is, I did, I want to be that guy who was 35 or 40, 40 years old that made it a little bit. Didn't quite, I make it and have no experience and anything in life at that point and had to kind of start from scratch and sort of took 15 years, let's say. And, and, and didn't really move the needle. Career-wise. and so, he said, well, that's great if you want to work and learn golf business, but you know, you're going to work on the maintenance group and you're going to work, busing tables and you're going to be a carboy and I'm like, fine. And so, I think he was trying to just torture me enough that I finally quit that and go back and play with it's really good for the plan. Um, and what, what happened was I, I dug all of it actually. so I lived in Vegas. And, for anybody who, hasn't spent a lot of time in Vegas and things, Vegas is this tropical destination, you know, go to Vegas in the winter and it is cold and windy and, and it's, it's, it's rough out there in the, on the maintenance group. so, so did that, but then, um, we started to build a couple of projects and I moved to Portland. Uh, Oregon and built a course called Landon farms. They're just from scratch with our golf course designer at the time John folk, who, played for a number of years on tour and still a very good friend of mine and a great influence on my life, but he just put me in his back office and I was kind of his, his, his gopher, you know, I'd be down at the County office, picking up permits or trimming trees or painting a fence or doing whatever had happened. So after doing that for about a year and a half, I got a call from, From the university of Washington, women's golf coach, Mary Lou muffler, and Mary Lou was the coach. When I played my sister played for her at Washington. and there was a guy who was there for three years, in between the, the, my coach built into the life life for, and this period of time. and so they reached out to me is at the time, the best player that had played the air and yada yada, but had no experience coaching. And they had a bunch of coaches who had experienced it, had nothing to do with Washington. They interviewed five people and I was kind of the last man standing. And so they're like, what do you think? And I said, wow, what a cool opportunity to, To coach at my Alma mater, but I mean, this is like not a real job, but you know, I'll try it. That's fine. And we were, we ended up building Washington national golf club, but I wanted to continue to do that. So my dad said, yeah, you know, we're going to build this golf course there and, and, try it out for a while and let her rip. So with a whopping salary of, I think $33,000 to be the golf coach at Washington, it started and they were the Sydney. They just finished 10th in the pack, 10, the year before. And, and I mean, literally figured we had nothing to lose and I started out coaching is, without any experience coaching. But what I did know is I really was passionate about my experience in college. all the parts of it that I thought were. amazing that I wanted to pass on and all the parts of it that I wanted to improve. and I just started sort of teaching myself how to, how to do that. And I was probably, I mean, the, the guys that played for me in the first few years of I tell you, I was probably more of a team captain than I was, you know, a coach. but, I always, I always reminded them when they would complain about something. I said, you also, haven't beaten anybody in your conference, so you're not very good at what you're doing. So, you know, let's, let's all join arms and, uh, and make each other better. I mean, it's, I, I was poke fun at him, but, but you know, so that's how, that's how we started that process and that journey together. And

Mac 26:31

did

Leo 26:32

you play a lot with the guys, Stan, because you were so young and like yeah. You were still trying to play or were you completely?

OD 26:37

No, I was, I was completely done. I had to. Two speeds, Leo. I could either, you know, not play or, or, or really play. I wasn't a good sometimes player playing a section of enter. So that was just, wasn't my thing. So, so I played often with them and that, that was actually how I tried to express, some of the, I figured if I, I could beat them day in and day out that whatever I was going to tell them the next day, Was going to, transfer, a lot at a lot higher rate than if I was a 27 year old at the time saying, I think you need to do this. And they're like, no, lots

Mac 27:08

of that's rare for them for college coaches. I mean, Rick Todd at UTEP was like that too. You'd go out, he'd be qualifying for us open still and go out there and beat the guys and everything. But it's rare. I mean, I think of that concept that you talk about. And I love that. Like, and I'm sure you've taken that with you into everything you've done, but being such a young head coach in golf, pretty much right out of playing professional golf, you took that team, captain mentality. It's probably something that you've taken with you as you go forward. Cause that's a good thing. It's almost like you're not separate from everybody, but yeah. You're with them. And, and, and is that something that you still are using today in your teams?

OD 27:42

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's how I look at it and I love teams and I always loved team, but golf, as you both know, doesn't have a lot of team or when we grew up, didn't have as much team. I think it's it's much. I mean, the coaching nowadays, it's just, there's so many great coaches and there's so much sophistication and true programs, but back then, there really wasn't that. So I've always seen it as, you know, we all have an equal share of the pie. but we all have different responsibilities that we're counting on another, to the, to fulfill. Right. I think one's more important than the other. Obviously a coach has never hit a shot in a college event. So, you know, there's no really been a coach that's actually really affected the outcome of a, of a tournament. Cause they'd never had a shot, but, There's a lot of players that, that should focus on playing and the coaches should focus on coaching. But again, I don't, there's not a hierarchy that says I'm the boss and you have to listen to me. I think you have to earn that. And, and I think you have to, you have to follow through with, with what you're accountable for, consistently. And,

Leo 28:34

I think it's a huge, yeah, huge obviously advantage. Like one of my assistant coaches in college, he was a national champion, so he was incredible. Still young guy. And I think that helped the team a lot when he played with us a lot and he would beat us, you know, consistently it's just, it brings a different like power dynamic when it's like that. I think obviously it's not very common. But I think, obviously that, that was a huge, huge advantage for you not even playing maybe the later with the UCLA team or the Duke team, but them knowing, Hey, you know, this guy did play at a level that nobody else has played that, and that, that gives a completely different, authority as a, as a coach. You mentioned like that, you know, keeping it simple, you know, the fewest shots wins the tournament. What are like one or two things, that you use? Like, what did you, how did you teach that? How did you actually take your team through that exercise of like, let's not complicate it? Like, how would you structure a practice sessions or,

OD 29:35

I mean, a lot, lots of different ways. but I think it's, it's a fascinating topic that I can talk about for days on a podcast. But, I really. Really disagree with the, with the age old concept that you qualify when you're at home and take those five players that CA and then those, those theoretically are the best five players you have for that event coming up, you know, to me, the game we play, you have peaks and you have valleys. And, and so I always tried to structure things. So the peaks would be when we're playing on the road and the valleys would be when we're at home and we're working on, that's kind of, when you tear it down, like this is a classic car. I mean, that's when it's in the garage and you're making all the repairs in the whole thing. And then for the car show or for the race. And you bring it out and everything should be, you know, where it needs to be. And, and, and so, but I also think that, you know, golf is the ultimate meritocracy. So, you know, we also can't be picking people and doing things. So, we got to the point, Leo at UCLA. and I know we're still in Washington now, but at UCLA where we had enough, really, really good players, like Lucas Lee, who played on tour. Couple of years ago and still plays professionally. I mean, he was on what we called our, our blue team, which in essence was our second team at UCLA. And we would play at all the local schools that would host events around and I would try to schedule to, parallel schedules basically, and then take the gold team. And the blue team would be playing one week. The gold team might be playing it, you know, the preview and the, and the blue team might be playing it. And Northridge is event. and we try to play those same days or close to it as possible. And then we would take the top finishers, at this one and the top finishers that one and form our team for the next event. And then keep moving forward and reward. The best play on the road, not reward the best play at your local club. And so that, that was, I think w I mean, that took a long time to get there. It's, you know, it's very good players to believe in us and, and, and committed to, to the, to that school and those schools. but I, I, to me, it was all about preparation and it was not. And so like Washington, before we have the luxury of having, you know, two teams and being able to do that and events that we, you know, we couldn't just drive down the road. I was really, really focused on their prep and their individual prep and, and getting them to really understand themselves and understand how they best prepared for events. And, and, and I think that's the fine line. You walk as a golf coach is, is, is trying to treat everyone. fairly but not equally. right. And, and, and, and, and not, not having favorites if you will. but at the same time, making sure that you really tailor the approach individually to each person on the team, the way you speak to them. I mean, you guys, as coaches know this, I mean, that message you deliver 10 different students. You have to say. The same thing, 10 different ways. And, and it's no different when you're coaching a team because someone's going to respond to something, you know, whatever it might be. I coach at Brock McKenzie at Washington. It's one of my favorite guys in the world. but I mean, a really good player coming out of high school and, you know, lots of confidence and lots of assurity that he knew exactly what he needed to do. as, as a freshmen in college, and a lot of those things were right, but maybe he had, you know, he had some things to learn as well. And he was so averse to, to the weight room. I've never had a player, more averse to going into the weight room to do anything. and I mean, just to the point where we'd argue back and forth and this and that, and the other two where I'm like, if I keep pounding this guy and like, this is what you're doing is the message is not going to get through. so I need to find a different way. To incentivize him to get him in there to, to, to, to see the benefits of what this can do. And I'm sure there was a lot more, I don't remember exactly how it was, but we finally got to that point. So does that, does that answer your question? Ma'am

Mac 33:19

yeah, well, no, actually. So it leads me to like how, how you recruited you were the head coach at Washington, at UCLA, a Duke. How, how. What are the, you know, all different environments, right. So what were the, what were some synergies in your recruiting that you found across recruiting and what did you learn from when you first started as a young coach, you know, to go going through all the different levels and, and coaching at all these different universities, what were some synergies and what was your recruiting strategy that you had?

OD 33:45

Yeah, again, I don't get long-winded so just give me a, give me a, this, if I need to cut her short.

Leo 33:52

All right.

OD 33:54

So, first of all, to be perfectly honest, I had no idea what I was doing recruiting. when I first started, it means zero. I just knew that I wanted the best. I knew the players I had. We're good guys. I knew that if we needed to get the program to where we needed to get, get it to, we needed players that were, you know, a little further along. So, and I knew at Washington, I knew the environment well enough to know that I was going to have a long, long road ahead of me going into Southern California, going to the highest ranked players in Southern California. and talking them into, coming up to Seattle, Washington, like off that, just that wasn't, that was not, I was going to have to work 15 times as hard as the coach in a local Southern California school, to, to get that kid. and I also realized at an early age that the last place you want to finish and recruiting a second, like, I want to get blown out early and not spend any time, or I want to win, on that player. I mean, you there's so many hours that you spend when you finished second. And so, what I found at the three schools through making a bunch of mistakes, is that all three schools had different models, but you know, your model is right when you keep bumping in to the same schools on a short list that you're recruiting against. So I'll give you an example at Washington, the model at Washington, in my opinion, is. You need to recruit and keep the best players from the state of Washington on a regular basis. Because if you look at like junior America's cup or the Eddie Hogan cup, and those, if you look at the kids growing up, that that state has done quite well over the years, you know, I can tell you that. The players that have left, over the years and gone other places, dusty Brett, and my first year of coaching at Washington was the best player in Washington. And Ryan LaVoy was right next to him and Ryan, the white bladed, Oregon, and dusty Brett went to Stanford. those guys had no intention of staying, in, in the state of Washington anyway. but you have to do that Oregon because of the rivalry with Washington. It's funny, Oregon kids will hardly ever go North. And go to school in Washington, but Washington kids will go South and go to Oregon. So we had to take a step further North and we had to go to British Columbia. which now, you know, James lept for example, was the first one. And, and you know, there's a Nick Taylor. I mean, there's been just a long line of Canadian players that have played at Washington and had tremendous success over to over the years. and, and then what you do is you keep your eyes and ears field for sort of the best player throughout the mountain region. it could, could be Montana. It could be Utah, it could be, you know, whatever it might be and then maybe some international players. And that's your model. It UCLA. In my opinion, because of, because we're an equivalency sport and yet four and a half scholarships here dividing up. we have a huge advantage at UCLA over, you know, our private school competitor across town, because no matter what school there is going to be, let's call it 60 or $70,000. But in state, UCLA today is 35, not 70. So if I give a player, in-state player at UCLA, a small scholarship, that's like, you know, USC or another private school giving them 50 something percent. Right. So there's a huge advantage there. And there's just a, there's just a focus when I was there on everything that was Southern California, which I think. And California in general, but that's that really worked well for us there, because that was all about depth. I knew I'd lose a top rank, California kid, obviously there's so many of them, you can't have all of them. but, but I knew that I do really, really well, and I knew it was important that the best players. Like out of the S CPG junior tour, and those things needed to be carrying a baby blue bag because that's what the 14 year olds and 15 year olds, like you've talked about, I think a Mack, I heard you, maybe it was on the Nico Blaney podcast, but talking about JP haze that at El Paso country club, you know, when you look to those kids that you idolized, I wanted those kids carrying our bag. Cause one of those 14 and 15 year olds got good. I wanted them, firing to be at UCLA. And then at Duke. Duke was all about beating Stanford, Georgia tech, Vanderbilt, Virginia. And like wake forest and whatever local school and whatever state you're. So, so state lines meant nothing. when you were in the private school environment. and when I got there and Duke, we kept finishing second, third, and fourth in that list. And our goal was to finish, you know, first in that list. And, because you start finish third and fourth on that list and that, that sort of depth of players is not going to get you to where you want it to be. So, so you really have to figure out the model, you have to stick to the model. And you can't chase the highest ranking. You can't get into the, the, the, the, all the hats following, you know, the top ranked player at the Rolex junior, you got to stick and believe in, in your, in your model. And when you do that, you only, you only compete against four or five schools.

Mac 38:33

That's amazing. And so it's geographical your model sticking to it, running through that. So how, so as you, how much does that lead lead into team culture and what, how, how would you manage all these. Better players. And how do you, how, how did you handle retention? And then at the same time, like, what are some interesting stories around. The ones you turned around and ones that maybe you made some mistakes.

OD 38:56

Yeah. All the mistakes that I won Mack is quite a long episode. but you know, we had, we had some successes as well. So, good question. I think, first of all, well, too much focus on trying to have the, the, the, the fit or trying to figure out what that fit's going to be for a 17 year old, because what I loved about coaching college golf is the development of a freshman to their senior year. And inevitably that person that comes as an 18 year old is a very different person at 22. You hope all for the better, but it's definitely not the same. And, and what we, what, what, what we try to develop in our programs was, this is not about being best friends. This is about respect. It's about, diversity. It's about learning. It's about being exposed to different ways. It's about challenging. It's about it's about growth and, and, and a lot of discomfort. So, I don't think that a, let's call it a very sort of divergent personality is a bad thing necessarily, as long as the core values are there and we're supporting team and we're doing the right things. So I started with a heavy focus on trying to make sure that it was the right fit and all those kinds of things. And, and then, really after that, if I got comfortable and I think the. In, in recruiting as well. One thing that I, that it was that I finally figured out after about three or four years, it's not about the dad. Again, in a traditional family model, it's not about the dad. It's all about the mom in success in recruiting, because what you want to do is you want to let mom know that little Johnny is going to be well taken care of, and it's the right place for him, both academically and personally in golf wise and all those things. and if mom's comfortable, you got a great chance. If, if you continue to get distracted by dad talking about how this person's going to be the next, you know, first team All-American and all these different things, and you don't address that, that piece, you're not going to have nearly, nearly the success so I could get a real feel from the family unit as to sort of, I think that the fit that kid would be to coach. And if I could coach him, I, I wanted as much, diversity in personalities and as, as we can possibly get. So, I would say, I mean, I'll one of my favorite guys, but, you know, so Kevin, so, so I came into UCLA and I inherited, a team that coach turfy put together. That was amazing in talent. I had, Travis Jones and Roy Moon, Steve cotton way, and John Merrick in the same class that we're all rising juniors when I got there. I had Spencer Levine coming in as a freshmen. and, and not to mention another, a bunch of other talented players on that team. And so I walked into a ton of talent, but I also walked into a ton of, personality. and, and a lot of structure that was needed. And, so this was not about making a lot of the players better. This was about refining the rough edges, and this was about the synergy. And I always saw this as getting them to the end of the year. By the time we got to the end of the year. That we had a real unit. And that was, that was a lot of work to get those guys there. And one of my favorite years ever coaching was my first year at, at UCLA for that. Cause I was growing into this, into this new role and this new place that I'd never spent that time in. There's a lot of familiarity at Washington, obviously. and you know, and I had all this talent to work with and a ton of energy. So, by the end of that year, we won our conference championship and. We won the regional or whatever. And we finished third at, at the NCAAs at Karsten Creek, Clemson won that year. and I still have those guys for, for another year. so that's what I walked into. And so when those guys finished up, my next cycle of recruits were, 2004. And in that recruiting class, we recruited, Kevin chapel, Daniel M. can Craig Leslie from Spokane, Washington of all places, and a kid from Northern Cal named Matt Marshall, who still plays on a bunch of different, you know, many tours, et cetera. And, and we had other good players as well, but that was a whole new cycle. And so, you know, And Kevin is the most notable player, obviously from that, from that class and what he's accomplished today, which is awesome. Everything he's done and everything that he's going to accomplish, but, you know, Kevin is, if you know him at all is, I mean, very, very sure of himself. I mean, very confident confidence. He should be, very talented. And, and he's a guy that you've got to earn your opinion and trust. So, one of the things that I asked our guys to do is we've got a tailor made every year. you know, they would set us up with, you know, the whole day down at the kingdom and yada yada, and they were bringing up the new ball at the time and in the fall. Cause I didn't really believe in a very heavy fall. I just wanted to play a couple of times and I wanted to break it all down and then I wanted to come out in the spring Veyron and so I set it in the fall. You guys are all gonna play the TaylorMade ball. All of you. You're a little bit by the same ball. And here it is, here's 10 dozen of them. Go get used to it. And they all looked at me like I was losing my mind and they're like, you're getting paid and that's the I go, I go, do you really think that's what this is about? I go, actually, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to get you to trust me that. Do you think I'm going to put equipment in your hand? That is, that is worse for you? No, I mean, how is that good for me? How has us finishing 15th and some event going to help me? Number one? but what I really am trying to do is I'm trying to get you to try something different than you currently play. Because when you inevitably turn pro, if you're a Titlest kid or if you're a Callaway kid or whatever you are, there's going to be a lot more options out there. And, and I want you to broaden your scope a little bit, and I want to prove to you that it's your talent. That actually is more important than the equipment that you're blind. And I mean, Kevin was hearing nothing of this and you know, it teachers sure. And as, as parents and, you know, whatever, and we still laugh about it to this day. and that's how kind of our, our relationship started, and is developed into a lifelong relationship and, you know, kind of an extended family. But, but that, that would be sample of, I think a personality or a style that, that we just confronted head-on. That, I think at the time he definitely was not sort of, you know, aligning with, but, as, as time goes on and he'll tell you, he goes, yeah, I totally get what, what the point was

Mac 44:59

now. So you leave UCLA and, and then they win a national championship. I mean, it's just getting rid of you. I mean, like travel was the deal, man. Like you set up a lot of things. So can you talk about that process? Yeah.

OD 45:11

Yeah. So that group of guys, played their first three years for me. And then, and then their senior year, I took the job at Duke, coach Ron Myers. Who's one of the Dre coaches of all time at Duke. at Duke and in our sport, but was at Duke for 36 years. and he passed away. And, and so here's this job that I never thought about leaving UCLA. at the time I was, I was recruiting, we have Phillip Francis, committed who ended up starting his career at UCLA and won a national championship there. And, and, at the time we had a Ricky Fowler, which. A lot of people wouldn't probably remember, but he was verbally committed to us for about three months before he switched his commitment to Oklahoma state. Cause he's, I watched him play for two years. and I don't know that I'd ever been as excited. You know, it's easy to sing nowadays, but you know, back in the day, you know, a little bit different approach to the golf swing and, and, and, and all in the background, but. I just absolutely loved everything he was about. And so, I wanted to make sure that he was going to be UCLA run. And so we have those two guys committed who are the one and two players in the country coming in and, you know, no, no reason to leave UCLA, when this conversation started with Duke. But, I I'd befriended, coach Brooks, the women's coach at Duke, coaching international team and, and, they, they recruited me to come back there and so. I always thought math that, that I'd coach for awhile. And then I'd get a real job at some point in my life. and so, you know, when the Duke thing came along, I'm like, you know what, I guess this is what I'm supposed to do. And that's great. And, and our son was just born and we were trying to, I mean, you guys know, it's like trying to make it in West LA on a coach's salary with a couple of kids. And, I got Duke that has the golf course and you know, everything and the cost of living and. And really a lifelong type of a job and a, and a great great school. And so I took that job. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done is, is leave those guys. Not only because we had so much potential and talent, but just, I cared so much for them. And I, I loved, I mean, loved UCLA. I just thought that, that the culture there, at the time and, what, what UCLA was all about and I'm sure still is, but I can speak to the time I was there. I was just so inspiring the most, it

Mac 47:09

must've been so rewarding to see them the next year. When, I mean is I

OD 47:14

was, I was there. I was there at, it, it, we didn't qualify as a team. We missed it. And when I was Duke, at regionals, but I went, I went there to watch those guys and, and just to see them, I don't want to distract Derek, Derek freedom. That coach there is great. And Derek was my assistant coach, at, at UCLA and, and, You know, so his first year of coaching, uh, you know, he wins a national championship and he's like, this is, this is a very hard, but it was so great. I, and UCLA was so good. I mean, they sent me a ring and, you know, made me part of the whole deal and, you know, all that. So it was, it was, it was awesome.

Leo 47:46

And, I want to go, yeah. I want to go back to coaching real quick. Cause you mentioned kind of your style a little bit, you know, kind of setting boundaries and, you know, being, you know, uncomfortable was a part of the process. Because I think, you know, everyone that played college golf and you look back at your, and this story, unfortunately, is, is too common where I didn't have a good coach. It wasn't, you know, the coach was, would get pissed when you three putt agreeing, like would just roll his eyes and, you know, and it's very common in college golf. And I think, it ruins some careers, right? where the coach is not a coach, but rather someone that is there to kind of. you know, push and kind of this old school coach that, maybe isn't, you know, reasonable with, with, with, with players, you know, 17, 18 years old. How, what was your process there? Because me looking back now, I feel like maybe you can get disappointed in practice, not putting in the effort, but when you're out on the course, What is the, what is the upside of, of rolling your eyes after a three pot, you know, a 17 year old kid? How is that going to be helpful to the team? you know, is that still going on? What's your, what's your view on kind of the in game coaching or, or OnCourse coaching?

OD 49:03

It's a good question, Leo. Good question. So, I think, I think it's changed quite, quite a bit. I think, I think the days of the, of the van driver, you know, coach would be there for half the time, you know, asking, Oh, why'd your three bucks black screen and standing on the par three, T's saying so. And so hit a five iron. You know, that's it's, that doesn't exist. Right. So, so

Leo 49:23

that's not happening anymore.

OD 49:25

It may be, but not at that level, the programs that we're probably interested in discussing today. So I would say that, I would say that it's, it's, it's really evolved. you see a lot of coaches walking with, with a specific player, almost every shot, for example, nowadays, and really trying to get into their process. I, I was really hands-off on the golf course. I thought I was there as I tried to read the player. And know when they needed me. and, and hopefully, I guess, right. More than I didn't guess. Right. But I would be there for them and I was always in view. So if they really needed something, I was within eyeshot. but at the same time, I don't, I didn't care if I didn't talk to him all day long if they were in the zone and, and, and we're going for it because to me, the tournaments are. first of all, they're all about the player. Number one, not about the coach. and, and I also think that that should be more of a celebration and, and the, that, that should be the real enjoyment, of all of the work that you've put in, getting to that point. So our practices were. Were were, for golf wise were hard. and, and I thought just that the CA again, the preparation and the competition, and the more that you can, I listened to one of your podcasts with rich beam and he, and he talked about what she did, which I knew rich. I actually knew him in that stint was, he was in Seattle by the way, selling cell phones and cars. but because New Mexico state was my first, event, we ever as a coach I ever made a trip to, but, and he played, he was in our college jam, but. you know, he talks about that gambler's mentality, right. And, and, and, and just that you wake up every day competing. And so we wanted to get to the golf course feeling so prepared for the events that, that we were just, we were going to showcase all of the work that we put in. So, you know, so, but Leo, to answer your question directly, I was always very realistic with these guys. as far as how I would ask them, do you want to play on the PGA tour? So the kids that were recruited at our programs and 95% of them say, yeah, that's what I want to do. and, and so I'd say, okay, well then, then your level of commitment needs to be X. I will get you to, I will provide these things for you and you need to take advantage of, of whatever that might be, but here's the percentages. And so when golf week first came out with those staggering offer rankings, which for college golf, which I still still to this day think are fantastic, but that was the, that was the best sort of data that we had in those days. like at UCLA, I remember talking to Roy Moon about this and, and we decided, I said, if you look statistically, we need the number one. You just have to have a guy who's going to step up on the last hole and win. Like Kevin chapel didn't yeah. And, and we have to have all five of our players ranked in the top hundred individually. If we don't, we cannot limp along and drag a guy along who we can't count on. So that's the deal. And so I'm not saying that's right. I'm saying that's how we started the year and the focus. And they would look at that and they would go here's again, here's where I, here's where I need to be. and then we also, then statistically, we would keep up, we designed our own scorecards. and I guess what a company would call a KPI or whatever, it might be a key performance indicator. We, we had, we had, we had a stat called woulda, coulda, shoulda subjectively entered. Okay. So if I, if I'm. I'll take Bel-Air is, is one of LR, still a par five, even though we don't have as many trees out there anymore, it used to be flipped wedge, but it was, it was very reachable. Okay. So, if you leave, if I, somehow, when there were a lot of trees there, if I thread the trees and I hit my six iron up there on the fringe of the green, and I got a little bump and run and I make five. I'm going to put a little one next to, on the bottom of that, that that's one shot that I gave back. I mean, that's just inexcusable any three, but, anything where you should be, you know, again, getting the ball up and down at what it might be.

Leo 53:05

Unforced errors,

OD 53:06

unforced errors. If you take that, what we call woulda coulda shoulda. And if you apply that number in college, most events are 54 holes against the 54 hole winner and you take your score. And you subtract, your woulda, coulda showed us you're going to win almost every event. And what that means showed them is it's not about hitting the ball necessarily better. It's because we're not, that's not about like, if I hit one. Yeah. There's no water could have showed a check Mark on that hole. Like that's just a bad shot. I'm talking about maximizing the game that you brought that day. It was all I'm talking about. And if you do that, you see where you're at. And

Leo 53:47

that's, that's a great exercise even for any golfer. the problem is that people, I think overestimate how difficult it is to not three putt, you know, in one row, like it's just, you know, good misses is what the game is all about, but that is good. Mrs. Is, is, is the hardest

Mac 54:06

thing, right?

OD 54:07

It, it, it is. So we, we would, we would try to break those things down, to answer my next question and, or your question, Leo, and, and like, here's, here's how, like, if you want to plan tour, here's you need to be. And, if you're scoring average now, is this, it needs to be that. And if we can improve a stroke a year over the four years, again, we'll probably, if I'm recruiting the right guys, we'll probably be there and here here's your plan. And so, yeah. Bye, bye time. You know, I've built up enough, you know, I think knowledge and, and respect and you know, in a program, Oh, by the time I stopped coaching, I think we were there to where the guys that we were bringing in were buying in and we were there to start versus having to grow that from. But, but they bought in, well, I'll give you a good example and we'll probably trans transition to Duke here shortly. but, Adam law. So I was just watching a couple of weekends ago as he was leading the event down in Dominican Republic or wherever they were. And, I mean, Adam, was a sophomore when I, went to Duke and Adam's a kid he's from st. Louis. He's a really smart guy. He was at Duke. Anyway. but he was a good player, really good ball, striker, really consistent. He kind of hits kind of a, hold off, draw a nice high ball flight, but never the greatest short game in the world. And definitely didn't have the mentality. I don't think at the time of, I want to play golf for a living and, Ryan Russell who's with tailor-made now he was my assistant and a very good friend of mine. And so we were coaching and we were sitting down with Adam and, and, and I remember Adam came in and he said, so. If I want to do this thing, I want to play, like, what do I need to do? Like, I think that I might want to actually play. And he, I mean, and not in a paraphrase, but in not so many words, he's like, am I good enough? And we're like, first of all, we can't answer the question. Are you good enough? We can give you, a roadmap. We can give you a hundred percent of our support and effort. I think if we do that, I like our chances. I like your chances. And I like our chances. And, when he won, I guess, the American express. now I, I still thought the Bob hope classic, so I don't want to get to date myself too much, but, when he won that event, he was down here at my, at my parents house, having dinner the Wednesday night. Might've been Wednesday night after the first round. You had a good first round, but you know, it never made much of a stir in the professional golf world. And it was his first full year out there, on tour. And then he ends up on Sunday, outdoing Phil Mickelson on the last hole. it was, it was such a neat thing to see and, and you know, talking to him later on now he's a new father and I be talking to him now. I mean, he's like, he's like I looked back and I remember that conversation we had and. You know how it got, you know, how it got my mind, and my expectations in the right. In the right place. So there's a great example of one that we got, right?

Mac 56:46

Yeah. Yeah. That's a, and that's amazing. And so like, you know, just how much power coaches wheeled in people's lives just with their assurance. We not, you know, we were talking to, um, Chris Mason, and he was talking about Butch Harmon telling him, like, you're doing a great job as a coach and like how much that reinforced him and. Makes them want to continue to seek more and, and, and, and continue to push into it. But what do you tell people? Like, we have a lot of coaches on the other side where they come in to come work for UDP and they're on the backend of playing mini tours, you know, and they still have hopes to keep playing. So like, what do you say to like the 95 that you say 95% of the kids that would come in. No, they want to go. And we know the statistics are not that. Would you tell every kid yeah. You, you know, go for it. You can make it. Or would you be brutally honest? What's what's that like,

OD 57:32

I, I, I was probably more on the brutally honest side on that multiple choice question you asked. I would say so, So, cause I think the answer is probably somewhere in the middle is white is why I say that. But, because I, I think you just start to get them the focus on, on the information, on the performance performance. Again, we talk about the lower scores, and get them to focus on it. So, so they come to that realization on their own. I don't think somebody telling someone they're not. Good enough. We're not going to make it or, or whatever is, is, is very valuable. Number one. but you can continue to put them in a situation where, you know, in your heart at the end of the day, if you have it, or if you, if you don't have it, I mean, you know, when you stare somebody down on the first tee, and you have a pretty good idea of if you're comfortable in this position or if you're not comfortable in that position. So I think it's about giving them the opportunity to be exposed to those things. And, and when they're exposed to them, how to, how do they, how do they respond and react? And we keep either improving and they see a trend one way or the other. So ideally they get to that point, all on their own.

Mac 58:32

So how much of the, how much, so how much is a coach, would you cause you're, you're, you're planning and architecting their entry into the, into college, but then on their exit, if they're not going pro how much career planning would you do as a coach with your players?

OD 58:45

Great question. And, in something that we were always focused on, but I don't think in my career we ever, I wouldn't put that at the top of mastery for us. And I think it's a place that, that we don't focus nearly enough time on in our profession. and, and I think that, that, that I would have wished I would have done a better job with, because you get so focused on the next recruiting class in the next year. there was always been the strong relationship and, and, and communication and, and, and those kinds of things. But I don't know, as far as a plan goes that we ever did a great job with that. but, you know, I, I, I think most people figure out that question you asked me, probably I, you know, by the time their junior year could sort of run, you know, comes around and then making the proper introductions and getting them set up. And whatever it might be, whether it's grad school or whether it's, you know, a job in, in the golf world or a job in business interning or, you know, whatever it might be. And I really experienced a lot of that at Duke because I inherited 14 kids on that team when I first got there. and you know, well, I guess there, there's still a couple of kids that play on that team, but for the most part, they're doing a lot of other things and most of them are extraordinarily successful in what they're doing.

Mac 59:53

Would you say how come like, you know, and I, I think about this a lot, like call, you know, college golfers, especially ones that played at a high level. Why do you think a lot of them don't really stay and, you know, think about making a career in golf, you know, why do we see a lot of the kids that might be. PGM kids or they they're coming out in the golf from a different angle. And they're so like, excited about the industry of golf versus kids that played it, their whole life, know it inside and out like yourself that actually have gone in and made a career out of it. And, and. And are influencing the game from not a playing perspective. Why do you think that it's not attractive for college golfers? You know,

OD 1:00:27

I sure wish it was it's. It's one of the conversations Mack that my dad and I have all the time and generationally when he turned pro it was, it was really a badge of honor to be a PGA member to be the head pro. I mean, you. Only the shop, you have the cart she had, you know, whatever it might be. Right. and I think for whatever reason, in the business of golf that, that, that does not exist anymore. I think that that, that going into the golf business, nowadays, seems to almost be, you are almost relegated to that cause you, you couldn't do something else. Right? I mean, again, I, I can talk about what you've built and what you guys have, have put together, which is an example of how you take. all of the great things that you learn in this game and apply them, but you had to go about it on your own. You had to have the vision and the courage to go out. And whether it wasn't a path to that, right. You created your path. and it's unfortunate that it's like that. But if you look at the golf business, the traditional golf business, but I think it comes down to economics, for the compensation at the highest level, whether you're a director of golf head pro or whatever it might be, you have to be an expert in. Agronomy in retail and instruction in food and beverage in sales and you know, HR, and you know, finance. Yeah. I mean, well, my point is, if you have that, that well-rounded of a skillset, you're probably going to apply that. And to something that's going to generate three X, the income that you're going to have as the local sort of golf pro in my current role, I am involved with PGA of America and also with the club managers, our management it's called association, the CMAA, which is more the let's call it the GM type of route that traditionally a lot of food beverage people, et cetera. There's some golf people, but you know, more of the business of, of, of club management, and just the. Just the sort of contrast between how one group goes about it compared to the other group goes about it and the education available in this one compared to that one, is, is pretty, pretty glaring. And, I hope, I mean, I'm, I'm really bullish on our game and what I think the, the sort of next generation of golf is going to look like over the next 20 years. And, And I am hoping what you just asked. I would have a different answer to 20 years from now because I I'm hoping there's just a lot more, interesting and lucrative opportunities,

Mac 1:02:45

in our game. Lot of ways economics and society has changed is, is you're saying, because came in, I mean, I remember coming even as a kid growing up in the nineties, like I'm, we're seeing the golf pro job being a pretty, you know, elite job. I'm just seeing my head professional Cameron don't at my club. I'm like played in the Texas open every year. It was always like deck to the nines, you know, Titlest staff, everything. And he was playing in events and he was paid really well. And he was treated like royalty at the club and it was a prestigious job and, and he also seemed like he always had time for the kids. And as I got older, I saw that head pro job become this back office hunched over a computer job. Like, and then they weren't playing as much. And it wasn't the same, that role kind of evolved. And some of the, you know, obviously top clubs all over the country, that role is still there. And Dave POTUS at Bel air and you go around and you can see it. But for the most part, you know, across the country, it's kind of been along with the shrinking, you know, B level tier clubs. It's like that that role has changed so much and they almost seem like they could plug anybody in there.

OD 1:03:44

And, and this is not a negative, but the, this has changed to where almost every single club was, was, you know, privately owned or owned by a single person in the golf management or these big conglomerates that own hundreds of golf courses did not exist where there's more of a consistent blueprint. and, and structure and corporate offices and those kinds of things. Again, I, I worked for one, and, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, but it's very, very different than, than it was when every club was more of an independent, you know, business, if you will.

Leo 1:04:15

It's the same thing in Sweden. Like it was, you know, in the nineties, early two thousands, it was prestigious. But then in Sweden, in the eighties and nineties, they built when there's over 750 golf courses in small Sweden. And so you had this, you know, a huge influx of golf courses and you have to hire people. And so then the quality went down. I think obviously the same thing happened here. so many golf courses were built and now every year it's a net negative. Right? So it's, you know, courses are, are, are closing. And not very many new golf courses. It might be it's slowly changing. What do you think it is?

OD 1:04:53

I, I, I, I do, I, I think, obviously, you know, recording this in the middle of the pandemic that we're all, all going through is, and, what six months or something now, ish, into this, there's been tremendous negatives, through all this, there's been some, some shining light, I think, golf. is, is one of those, I think people getting out in the fresh air and having plenty of distance and all of the different things that are important right now. I think a lot of people have, have taken up a game. They're playing golf a lot more. A couple of our clubs are seeing the highest. you know, rounds per member that we've ever had at our clubs, during this time. So, so I'm not saying it's just because of golf, but I think there's a tremendous opportunity. Now, when people discovering this game for maybe a different reason, maybe it's not the elite business contacts and all those kinds of things. Why a lot of people play golf, maybe it's because it might be the best form of outdoor exercise and, and bonding with them. So you're your own family and there's a lot of families playing and fathers and sons and grandfathers and mothers and dads. I mean, there's, there's, there's just so much of that.

Mac 1:05:57

When you take away all other sports, your kids are going to play golf.

OD 1:06:00

That's that's that's, that's, that's very succinct. That's, that's better than I said

Leo 1:06:04

it so.

Mac 1:06:05

Well, how did you, you know, how did you, because I want to get to the business of golf with you, and I think we could talk about that for a little bit. but how

Leo 1:06:12

T talk

Mac 1:06:12

about that transition for you from coaching and not to skip overdue, but just for times, skipping, going from coaching to working for the PGA tour. now a lot of people are like fascinated by the idea of working for the PGA tour and how. How it could be, but in a lot of ways, it's a, it's a big machine. So you worked for one of the coolest events on the PGA tour, smallest ones. Can you talk about your experience running the LA open?

OD 1:06:34

Yeah, I'm gonna just gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna segue one bridge, to get there though. So I love coaching to get into college athletics, from an administrative perspective, as a senior associate athletic director at my Alma mater, and I had a lot of our external responsibilities and, and football. And, you know, when I was there, we remodeled the stadium and did a bunch of things and I was able to see college athletics, sort of from that side. And that's, that, that to me was appealing because I wasn't gone 200 days a year. And, and, and me simply again, I, I try to sort of take everything from the 30,000 foot view. And I was like, man, if I can be effective with one team, what could I do if I was in charge of 21 teams? that that would be, I mean, the, the impact would be exponentially that much greater. and then, and then I, I was in that for five years. but the next job really being an athletic director and having a program, the size of a pack 12 type program was more of a, an election than it was, sort of, you know, about your ability. And, when I knew that wasn't, for me, I was introduced to, to David Pillsbury, who now runs club court. But at the time he worked for the PGA tour, by my good friend, Jamie Mulligan at Virginia country club. And, who obviously a lot of your listeners I'm sure know, he's just one of the great guys in our game. and so, they were looking for somebody to run the, the, the, the Northern trust open at Riviera and Mac where I'm at you obviously, there, but, but, I, I don't. Oh yeah. And this is the golf side of me. I mean, the, the running a PGA tour event was so much fun for like, Three months a year. It was great. You know, the, the, the, the challenge in that job is it's a long time when you have an annual event between the event, you just ran into one coming up and, and, and, but it was, it was great working for. You know, the tour, the tour owns and operates a certain number of events about 10 or 12. because most events as you as is your listeners may or may not know, are, are really owned and run by nonprofits. They're, they're, they're really five Oh one C threes. and they're there to, to raise money for the local community. But, the tour owns for different reasons, a few events, and that's who I worked for. So I worked for the PGA tour and, I mean, and I say the golfer side of me, because. One of the reasons I took the job is because I have this like passionate love affair with Riviera. I just think that is one of the great days of golf in the world. And I mean, I, every time I play it, I feel stronger about what I just said. I mean, it's just, it's just unbelievable. And, being around and again, I would, I would not play there that often, but, but just being around that championship and thinking about, you know, Ben Hogan, walking, those fairways and the success he had. And, you know, thinking of Dave Stockton's, you know, forward or whatever off the side of this, the slope on 18 and, just all the great things that have happened there really motive. I would've felt a lot differently about it if it was, you know, some less sculpt TPC course in the mid and mid America, you know, same type of job. So, but that, that job was, was, fantastic. I mean, you know, the fact that you have such a community impact. re I re I love that part of the job. the fact, I mean, it's very, very complicated, and running an event. I mean, being a player in a lot of events, I don't think you just kind of show up and everything's there and okay. Where's lunch and what's my tee time, but, I really gained a tremendous appreciation, especially for, you know, recruiting and motivating and, and enjoying, you know, 900 plus volunteers annually. and at Riviera, I mean, the. the ingress and egress, as far as the parking. And I mean, it's just, it's complicated, but, super, super rewarding. But you know, for, for me, I was always planning on doing that for awhile and then, and then probably a career with PGA tour. cause. and then when there was a change in our commissioner, from, Tim Finch to Jay Monahan, David Pillsbury was also right alongside Jay Monahan at the time before that transition. And I think David, at that point in time, you know, he wanted to be the commissioner or had aspirations. I never actually asked him that, but I'm assuming so. And, and so he left to do some different things and now he's at ClubCorp, but when that happened, You know, I, it didn't necessarily change my trajectory, but you know, maybe rethink it a little bit. And, and to, to where now I've transitioned to working for montage.

Mac 1:10:36

Did you find yourself kind of like in that process, I hear you kind of in a few different themes throughout this conversation where. it doesn't sound like you really liked bureaucracy that much.

Leo 1:10:44

actually I already know

Mac 1:10:45

that the last time we played,

OD 1:10:47

we played you're cheating.

Mac 1:10:49

Last time we played it, we played it. I didn't, I, you know, it was, that was a fun round. but like what, what kind of going from coaching and then being able to get in there with the players to bureaucracy, what was that? And what was that transition like? And like kind of how,

Leo 1:11:03

how, how,

Mac 1:11:04

w what is it about it that makes it hard when you're working for bigger organizations? You're the athletic director, you're running a PGA tour event. You don't really get to do what you want. Is that

OD 1:11:16

spoken like a true entrepreneur, mr. Times?

Mac 1:11:19

They say I'm unhirable so.

OD 1:11:21

Yeah, well, you, you and me both basically. So, um, you know, I, I think, I think that's true. I th I think that's definitely true. I didn't know that about myself until I, until I had those, those jobs, both with, Washington and the PGA tour as a coach, you're, you're kind of an independent business owner for the most part. I mean, you obviously represent that school, but you know, the way you. Design your practices and who you are. I mean, that's really your, your decision. so, it, it definitely, I wasn't prepared for that and I wasn't prepared that I probably wouldn't fit into, a more, I don't know what you want to call it, but, you know, Bureaucratic type of an organization. very well, but, but, but I learned a lot from it as well. And, and I, and I tell you, it's made me much, much better because of going through those, those experiences and how to navigate some of those things. I think, I think it, you know, Mack, it gets back to our theme of, of sort of if, if, if golf and the game of golf and how you play the game, permeates, kind of throughout, I see folks. Yeah. Or maybe more visionaries like yourself, et cetera, like. Like, it's the, it's all about the score you shoot, and, and for you, it's all about the service you provide and, you know, an X and that's going to make you successful. But with about a thousand other things, bureaucratically, that, that seems super inconsistent with people who are putting in a certain number of years until their pension or, you know, or this or that, or the other or whatever it might be. And I just never. Quite jived with that side of it. And I don't think I had the patience to put in the time and effort to, to sort of, elevate myself in that type of way. I just always want it to be more, more valued for my productivity and, and results.

Mac 1:13:00

I'm more like a meritocracy than actually saying, okay, you've put in your time. And this has been the process and. And, and, and, and I guess like really in, in that, what, what was your, what is your, what was your scorecard with the PGA tour and what were you looking for with those results there?

OD 1:13:18

I scorecard with the PGA tour was, I mean, well, there was, it was all about, the, the, the, basically the, the community impact, in, in, in those events. And, and also the title sponsor, I wasn't aware of sort of how involved, the title sponsors were until that experience of Riviera. I also, for a year and a half worked at the, what they, what was called the PowerShares TPQ at, at Sherwood, which was the first playoff event, on the PGA tour champions and have the experience with that group as well. But. I I'd say overall, that was the scorecard. I mean, it's, it's how much money can you generate for charity? and how happy is the title sponsor and are they going to renew? and, and again, obviously, how, how are the players feel about, the event? What really surprised me about that is this the gate overall, the actual gate revenue. And that piece is almost insignificant at, at, at both. And quite honestly, at Riviera it's so challenging to get folks there parked shuttled back. the, the event financially just bottom line would be better if they didn't have fans. Other than hospitality, if you just shut the Gates and just had valet parking and, you you'd you'd do better. because it's such a challenge getting in there. So

Mac 1:14:25

that's where we are now. So it's fine.

OD 1:14:28

Yeah. Yeah. The pandemic. So, so I don't know if that answers your question, but that was, that was really the scorecard there. And am I giving myself a score? Is that what you're asking me? Are you

Mac 1:14:40

and such a, you know, in such a big bureaucracy there, I was curious, I mean, with athletic director and then also to working for the VA. PJ tour. It's like, what is your scorecard when you're dealing with such a big machine there and how do you gauge your success? And yeah, no, you answered that

OD 1:14:52

clearly. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it depends who you are, but there's a lot more of my boss at Washington who is now the ed at LSU now. and, he's more of a bottom line, kind of a guy. And he used the term optics for the first time. Like, cause he grew up in politics and he's very successful in politics and I never really even thought about politics. And so I learned so much from him, but when he talked about optics, he's, he's, he's, he's like, he's like, Odie, I'm not telling you if this is right or wrong, because I know that that's kind of how you look at the world, but you need to look at things through optics and how others are going to see. You know, what, what your decision is, how you communicate it when you communicate it, like there are a number of other ways to get there. So even though this first little path that you don't see to the left through the woods here, we'll end up back here. but it's going to take steps number three, four, and five, because optically, we need to go from here to there. We can't just go here versus here to there. And so for me, that was an, you know, which sounds totally elementary and embarrassing even say that that was a brand new concept.

Mac 1:15:52

Not at all. I mean, that's great insight. And to be able to, you know, I think a lot of people to take in different perspectives and understand about how you can create one full picture that everyone can synergize on. I mean, that's not elementary. I mean, I mean, I guess it is if we're looking at American politics today, so, but it's yeah, it's great stuff. So how did you make the switch into, you know, into working for the montage and doing what you're doing today and what are you learning there?

OD 1:16:17

Yeah, well, so I work for montage international. you know, what they call an ultra luxury, hotel management company. I was, at my pay grade and my travel experiences were definitely not ultra luxury. So I had really not known much about montage. but what I do for them is, I'm responsible for golf and the clubs, which we have three, currently for montage and. that that job existed. there's a gentleman there for a number of years, did a great job. And then I transitioned into his role. and you know, it's when I took this job, it was, it was really to me about pushing myself and my levels of expectation. Like if, if, if we can bring a montage level service, montage level expectations, the, the, the, the, the touches of luxury. Into the club's space. Cause I didn't see a lot of that in, in clubs. I see there's a lot of great things about clubs, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that like the. Service culture at most clubs, I would put in the top, whatever of the experiences I've had, that, that lives in hotels and other places and, which is still our concept today. But if we can, bring that what an amazing way to transform. the experience for our members and, to be able to take our services then to, you know, to, to other clubs that way. which again, we're in the, we're in the middle of working on a number of projects to do that, but that's, that's really the, in the intriguing piece. We, our founder, Alan who, there's there's, there's now six montage hotels, and, and two Pendry hotels, one in San Diego. and so it's our other brand. but, uh, we are going to double our portfolio in the next three years. So lots of growth on the hotel side, lots of growth ahead. And, and obviously looking forward to that, but, but it's a great time to, to be with that company, but Allen we're, we're the only company in our space. That's still, managed, on a day-to-day basis by our founder. So there's just, there's just so many great. Mac, but both of you guys, I mean, you just love to, spend time with, with Alan and, and, Jason, Herthel, our president and just everything about montage, culture values, all that. It's just at the very, very highest level. And it's, it's, it's, it's inspiring to be a part of it's

Mac 1:18:28

awesome.

Leo 1:18:29

And how many golf courses are going to be?

OD 1:18:32

Oh, well, we don't have any, Leo of those. I just mentioned there's no golf courses, with the projects that are in the pipeline. Currently, we obviously hope there are, some new ones and as, as, as we continue to grow, so what I'm charged with, one of the things I'm charged with is. is sort of organizing and branding our club management services into let's call it white label, to where we could take those to select clubs throughout the country. Maybe in markets, we already have hotels, but not a direct link, and bring those services to two clubs in a very boutique way, which is one of the things.

Mac 1:19:05

Hm. Well, why, why do you Odie, like on that note of like five star service, so you said earlier, why do you think that. you know, five star service doesn't exist in the club world. Like you said, I mean, like, Y Y you're like you can find it in hotels and then high-end restaurants and in airlines and in, you know, all of these like experiences that you can find in golf is at electrics in polo, you could find a five-star experience. You go play polo over the days of beginner, scuba diving, skiing, like, why is golf missing that five-star component?

OD 1:19:34

I think it's more clubs than golf specifically. So because there are obviously clubs outside of just golf, but, but for the most part, I don't think it's a really good question, man. I don't think that's the expectation, which is, which is weird to me. The amount of money club members spend at the club. If you look and you sort of, and amortize that back to days that you enjoy it, whether it's golf rounds or dinners or whatever, I mean, you spend quite a bit of money. For every experience you have at that club. And for the most part, no clubs are member owned, equity clubs that. Are usually built around tradition and a golf course and some maybe tennis courts and a pool or whatever the traditional amenities are. And, and I don't think people have that expectation when they go to their, they don't even, they don't even know that they should, because that's the way it's been done for 80 years or whatever it might be. But, but, but we believe that, that it doesn't cost any more to deliver that service. And at a higher level, it really doesn't. I mean, and I'm not talking about when I say five star, I'm not talking about white gloves and two people at the door, and I'm not talking about adding a bunch of bodies talking about the quality of the service that's available, the quality of the experiences, the quality of the amenities, you know, for example, where it is talking to somebody pitching the fact we wanted this club to buy two Airstream trailers. That were clubs specific for members only to rent that we would set up at the local campgrounds, these certain reservation system, et cetera. But you had to be a member of this club to be able to rent these trailers, et cetera. We would set them all up and whatever it might be, and you would drive to your local state park. It would be right there for the weekend on Friday night. Enjoy a couple of great nights with the family. A spouse, whatever it might be, move you just leave, we pick it up, you know, the whole deal and those types of things. Why couldn't that be part of, you know, the club, the club experience, for example,

Mac 1:21:30

these expectations and that these like people tradition and its great traditions. Good to keep right as we go through evolving in society, but you have to also be evolving. Like you gotta, you take the things that were good. You're studying them and moving it forward. It's just, it's funny to me starting UDP. And it was like, I knew it was kind of important to when I worked at golf tech. And I remember like, nobody, you know, the clients were walking in and roaming around with their bags, like not knowing where to stand, where to sit, like carrying their bags or like bumping into the door, like trying to carry their big cart bag. And, you know, the, and, and I'd be like, the pros would be like laughing about them, trying to get in the door and I'd

OD 1:22:06

be like,

Mac 1:22:08

like, what are we doing here? And so I started running out there, even if they weren't my clients and I'd be grabbing their bags and walking them in. And, you know, and being like, Hey, you want a water? And I'd go get the water from the fountain. When you back, when you could do that, you could serve someone, a glass of water from a fountain, but way back, way back when, but thinking to myself and then like seeing it, I just knew it felt wrong because I knew five star service growing up. And then I knew it wasn't like, right. Like these people were paying 150 bucks to take a lesson. And so I would go and grab it and I just hated seeing them Bumble around. And then, you know, it became our hallmark with our business and you know, now we're, and it's like, and you know, like my Costco invested $3 million in our company three years ago. And in his note, he says, you know, when those nice people smile at you genuinely and grab your bag from you. And that's in the note, that's like memorialized in our locations, Puget investment, real famous investor. And it was like, and I was like, God, I can't believe how big something that simple was. And like that shows you how much, like in this world, people appreciate service and, and, and how important it is. And you think about, you know, golf course is struggling and rounds played. And, and, and I feel like that's so much is the problem right there. It's just not giving high quality service and being able to make people feel welcome, you know, and as much as traditions and values and everything like that. I think in a lot of ways, that's something that. You know, it it's, it's something that I think that is missing in a lot of golf operations.

OD 1:23:34

Well, it's, it's the little things that you, that you just mentioned that you, that obviously Blake pointed out, but, like for example, you know, SETI goes and plays in his first, junior club championship has a lot of success being, you know, I know that happened at your club and if the next time he walked into your club, And someone recognizes says, Hey, mr. Todd, congratulations on savvy. And the way he played or whatever else you're going to go like that it's the little teeny touches that make you feel or make it make a big difference. And, and you asked about my dad and some of the isms and some things like that. One of the, one of the great things he told me that I, I believe in. Is that there's very few P it's. This is like there's no, I think more than a hundred percent when somebody I'm going to give you a hundred, 10% drama, I mean, that's well, that's great, but there's only a hundred. Okay. So let's start there. And, and there's very few people that do the last 5% and the last 5% doesn't count. 5% more. The last 5% will make a hundred percent of the difference. because, because this is all about little incremental things and that little piece, if you can just think about those little things every day, and rather than 95, you're at 96 or at 97 or whatever it may be. Cause most people don't get up and like, you were really crappy job today and I'm gonna, you know, whatever. And I'm going to try to screw up as many times as I can. And yeah, they generally like, okay, they get out of bed again, work, whatever it is, right. But, if you can challenge yourself to think beyond what you're doing and think about the little teeny things that consistently overtime make all the difference. Wallah.

Leo 1:25:10

Yeah. And that's hospitality, right? There's a difference between service and hospitality. Hospitality is like a dialogue and service services, more of a monologue. And I think, I mean, if we're going to talk about clubs, I think one of the issues is that they're all kind of nonprofits. Like they owned by the members and they don't, they're not financially incentivized. So it's a little bit tricky there. Obviously. Now there's a lot of high-end golf courses that are for profit and they probably have better service

Mac 1:25:36

and lots of custody,

Leo 1:25:37

but then it comes. Yeah, that comes back to that person that the, the director of golf or the GM almost has to be the person behind to have to be that sophisticated. And maybe the pipeline of people going into the golf industry is not that sophisticated. They're, you know, they were players and they don't have a background in hospitality. So wait. Not 5% of your talking about that's very advanced, right?

OD 1:26:01

I mean like your main dining room in a club right now, that's not being utilized because you can't dine inside. Let's just, let's just say that that's, that's true. And you and your location. Why, why are you not utilizing that space and set up. Desks and a whole workspace for, for, for kids to online school, for example, and get to the club and get out of their house and offer, a tutoring service that might be online or something to get them out of their house in, in some sort of a different perspective. you know, Just like, rather than just go, Oh, well we're closed right now. So we can't use this 10, 12,000 square foot space that we have. Well, no, you just need to use it differently.

Mac 1:26:37

But that's the, I know we talked

Leo 1:26:39

about yeah. You know, the governance of a, of a, of a country club they're so conservative, right? Like, cause the board it's so risky for the GM, the director of golf to take any risks, like any chance on any, you know, initiate, like, project like that. You know, everybody's scared. And I think that like at a country club, do you don't want to piss off the members? And I think that's what we talked about this in the episode with Danny wax, like the private country club, model in America is, is definitely not very efficient, right? Like it's just financially. Or, you know, we're talking about hospitality now. There's definitely an off balance and it's not,

Mac 1:27:17

it's not working. It was structured to go from good to great. I mean, I'm a big fan of Jim Collins. Good to great. In this idea of being able to go from good to great is not something that it's really inherently built into how it's structured. Like you said, about model and geography for recruiting. The model's not built for greatness. It's not built for excellence. It's built for tradition and it's built for consistency in a way almost where it's not built to evolve. I watched this, this new Netflix, the called the playbook and doc rivers is the first one. The second one is really great on that came out. And, Jill Ellis, she's the, she was a us women's coach soccer coach one, you know, most winningest coach and the whole thing. And she says, she's one of the things that she doesn't really incredible. She's like, you know, the air is thin at the top of the mountain for a reason. You're not supposed to be stay up there for very long. And, you know, it was just awesome. And that's how she starts off every next season, after they do something big, it's like, all right, get down, get down and go back up again. You know? And it's a new one. So it's sitting in a lot of ways that it made me think of that when you were talking about your dad's isms, cause it's the same, same idea that. You know what you do every day. Cool. Like do the best you can and then do 5% more. And then you're at a hundred that's that is, that's a neat that's Navy seal stuff right there. It's I mean, it's, it's really about being able to seek excellence and continue to try to get better is it's not a comfortable approach. And I think, you know, inherently in the country club model, it's like, it's, there's comfort. There's consistency there. You're not really seeking as much. And you know, in, in, in the, you know, in some of these tra clubs, we'd describe them that way to our TB, like the ones, if we're going to have, if your club is. Gonna last a long time and not be one of these places like LA or Riv or whatever you're going to need to build all those practices into what you do and change the model, or it's not going to make it in the future society that we're going into.

OD 1:28:59

That's

Leo 1:29:00

all right. We're gonna wrap up with a final question here. So there's a, there's this theoretical opportunity for you to go play any course in the world.

Mac 1:29:10

You're going

Leo 1:29:11

to play with three different people. Okay. One that you're going to have a lesson from before your tee off one to play with, and one to have a beer with afterwards after the

OD 1:29:22

round. So force

Leo 1:29:25

and then three people,

OD 1:29:27

of

Leo 1:29:27

course. Would you want to play.

Mac 1:29:29

Well,

OD 1:29:29

I've kind of boxed myself in a corner with my description of Riviera early on the habitat. but I, I'm not going to pick her up because, I love links, golf, even more than that. So, I would play, I would play Muirfield, just cause, I mean there's a lot of great links courses, but just the play in the open there. I would love to go back and see it without. Yeah,

Leo 1:29:52

you should note that you shot 67 in your first round. You were top 10 and then

OD 1:29:56

maybe I shouldn't go back then. Cause I don't think I'm going to shoot 67 next time, but that would, that would be the golf course. for sure. so my, my, my other three players are, are, are, lesson prior. Well, I mean, I'd have to have my dad to me out for sure, because he's the only one that seen the evolution of all that, all that motion. so he'd have the best chance to get me, get me in a place to, to perform. All right. What's so what are the other two roles?

Leo 1:30:21

And then who do you want to play with anybody? It could be dead or alive.

OD 1:30:26

I want to play with. Going to kind of be weird, but, I would like Curtis strange in my group. I just, I remember that guy went in the U S opens in 88 and 89, and that was just a super impressionable time. He was like one of the first Nike players ever. And I had a poster of him in my, uh, Uh, but that guy at that time in the world, was to me the ultimate competitor, like, he's just meaner than and straighter and just got it done. So I know that was a short period for him, but, but it would be in my group and I got to pick one

Leo 1:30:57

more. Yeah to drink with afterwards

OD 1:31:00

to drink with afterwards,

Leo 1:31:02

Spencer Levine,

OD 1:31:05

you know who I try to pick a drink afterwards, just because I've heard such amazing stories. And I think it'd be so much fun. Laura Davies.

Leo 1:31:12

Oh yeah. That's a good one.

OD 1:31:15

You guys caught me off guard with that, but, throw a couple. Yeah. I

Mac 1:31:17

love those responses because you go like Muirfield, you're like, I would love to see what it's like to play without the stands of the British open. It's like most people, the other way around. Well, thank you so much better

OD 1:31:28

pleasure. No, thanks you guys. She invited me on and, I, I'm sorry. It's so long, but I could sit here and chat with you guys for hours. So I apologize for the length, but, congrats on everything you're doing. And, thanks for putting this together. Like I said, I'm, I'm obviously as you know, a fan of the, both of you and the fan of UDP tremendously, and, the fact that he's come to my inbox and I get a chance to. To, to, to hear like old friends, like Ted Gleason and, and, and he heard Nikos. And again, listen to rich beans just, just recently. And, it's, it's a great connection back to the game. And, I love your insightful questions and it's just super, super interesting. So keep doing what you're doing cause it's, it's making all of us better.

Mac 1:32:03

I'll say this man. You've been one of the biggest influences on my life and you know, on where we've gone with this business, I met you like at such a critical time. And I felt like I like knew you and you've treated me like, you know, you've treated me like a brother since we've met and it's been awesome. You've truly changed the course. And like introduced me to Kelly. James introduced me to Derek Freeman. I mean, and I've become friends with these guys and, and it's all synergized. And I feel like you're, you know, you're like my, my fairy tooth godmother or something. So I just, you know, I mean, it's tremendous. I mean, and your dad, the time with your family and just, you know, thanks so much for spending the time with us and being such a big supporter of what we're doing.

OD 1:32:40

It's an honor.

Leo 1:32:42

Thank you so much. Take care of you back. Bye bye.