How Baseball Is Like A Divorce: It Ain’t Over ‘Til It’s Over

⚾️ “It ain’t over ’til it’s over.” — Yogi Berra

In baseball, you don’t know the game is done until the last out is made. And in divorce? The same is often true.

In this interview with Founding Attorney, Lewis Landerholm, we break down why divorce isn’t always “over” when you think it is, what typically happens next, and how to avoid surprises during the final stretch.

Lewis and Steve discuss the various stages of divorce proceedings, from reaching agreements to judge rulings, and explain why the process continues well after a judgment is signed. The conversation covers the complexities of drafting final judgments, post-divorce obligations, and the potential need for enforcement or modification actions. They also highlight the importance of having ongoing support for clients navigating the numerous administrative and practical tasks that follow a divorce decree. 

If you would like to speak with one of our attorneys, please call our office at (503) 227-0200, or visit our website at https://www.pacificcascadelegal.com.

Disclaimer: Nothing in this communication is intended to provide legal advice nor does it constitute a client-attorney relationship, therefore you should not interpret the contents as such.

Transcript

Steve Altishin: Hi everyone. Welcome to our Facebook Live broadcast. I'm Steve Altishin, Director of Client Partnerships at Pacific Cascade Legal, and I'm here today with our founding attorney Lewis Landerholm to  talk about how baseball is like divorce. It ain't over till it's over. Hey Lewis, how you doing today?

Lewis Landerholm: I'm doing great. How are you, Steve?

Steve Altishin: I'm doing well. You know, baseball's about to start. How started and, you know, one of the all time great quotes from Yogi Berra, you know, it ain't over till it's over. And you know, it seems nonsensical, but it's actually pretty profound. And you know, the game doesn't end. There's not a, there's not a clock. It's not over till it's actually over. And, and I thought that was a great analogy for divorces. And so let's kind of talk about that. You know, it's not over just because you've come to an agreement with the, with the other party and not necessarily over, if you've had a trial and the judge has made a decision and you know, potentially maybe not even over until the decree comes in. So let's, let's talk a little bit about why, you know, it isn't over just because the judge makes a decision on the divorce itself.

Lewis Landerholm: Yeah, those are all good points. I think there's a couple different stages in divorce where this feeling is, is typical where clients feel the, uh, have the feeling that aren't we done, you know, isn't, isn't this over because it's a long, can be an arduous process, very emotional process. So we totally understand all of that. There's, during the divorce process, there's a couple times when this becomes very prevalent. It's either the parties have reached an agreement and believe, okay, we're done. Or like you said, where a judge has made a ruling and it feels, it feels final and it feels like we've come to this climax and we're finally done. Just to realize that no, there's this whole document called a judgment. Other states call it a decree that has to be drafted and it has to be written up by the attorneys to actually effectuate these agreements or these rulings. And in Oregon specifically, typically we have in a, when a judge is ruled, we have 28 days to enter the judgment. So by itself, you're talking about a, a four week period before it even has to get entered. There's plenty of times where that can can run longer. And then you could potentially have what's called a form of judgment hearing where the parties don't agree over the language because what, what happens in a divorce? And what people don't always understand is that when a judge makes a ruling, they're making a ruling on, on high level issues. The, the what is going to happen. This is how I always kind of explain it. You've got the, the what is gonna, you know, be ordered between the parties. But when you get to the judgment writing, the how becomes really important, okay, that's great that the other person, or I was awarded the house, or maybe I have to sell the house.

Lewis Landerholm: Well, how am I gonna do this? Right? What is my timeline? Who's responsible for what? So all of these issues become necessary to, you know, to negotiate and to then ultimately get information from the judge, judge as to what they're actually going to order. And it can be a very frustrating time for a lot of people who feel like I should be done with this. And it, uh, it can take longer than what people anticipate just because there's still people involved and we still have disagreed. So that's, that's really evident even during the process. And then, you know, after the process, we can even, once you have a judgment, there's a lot of other things that need to be done and we can definitely talk about those as well.

Steve Altishin: Oh yeah. You know, it's funny you talk about the, the time between the judge making an order and the order being actually signed and and filed and the things that can go on. You know, I know of do remember long ago a case where it was, there was a probably four months of back and forth in between the attorneys on who was responsible, responsible for paying the people to mow the lawn or, you know, hire somebody. And it could be really crazy, which is why I really like, you know, when when you do things, you, you try to get as much of that as you can resolved even before the final final.

Lewis Landerholm: Yeah. I mean, we've been doing it so long, we anticipate a lot of these things now, and so we, we'll ask a judge for clarification on the record so that way we can avoid some of these. Like who is gonna pay for the, the other thing is when somebody's selling a house, who's paying for necessary repairs, what happens if one party disagrees that it needs a new roof? How are we gonna deal with that issue? And so we try to avoid some of the conflict after the fact by, by getting a ruling on these things. But sometimes it just is impossible to foresee what, what would come up and it take frustratingly long, get all of these details ironed out and once people are finally living their separate lives right after a divorce, then all of these things come up because they're all new issues for them. And so we have to, we have to think through and then we have to draft it accordingly. And so there's the getting the, either the agreement or taking it to a judge and the, the technical part of drafting the document can take some time.

Steve Altishin: Yeah. That's where experience comes in. That's exactly where experience comes in. Okay. So you get the judge to sign it, you get the get it filed, but are there possibilities that it could still go on? I mean, can the judge make orders that are filed but still require follow up to have them done

Lewis Landerholm: All the time? So <laugh> a classic, a classic example is if a house is ordered sold at trial, it's clearly not gonna be sold within a month or I mean, in most cases not gonna be sold within a month or two. And so there's gonna be an ongoing, you know, issues with dealing with selling the house if you have kids, there's a lot of ongoing issues with the time, you know, the, a judge may order certain times for exchanges, but the parties may negotiate otherwise. So there's gonna be that ongoing part of things a judge could order that a car has to be signed over to the other party. So the title has to get signed and, and sent over to the other party. You know, there's other pieces like having to go get a name change. You know, if, if if a party asks for a name change in the divorce, they can get that into the document and then you have to go and, and do the name change after the fact. Other things that judges can, you know, can ask for are payments of debt or payments of certain, you know, things, especially with division of like retirement accounts and, and doing what's called a quadro after the fact for people who have retirement accounts that are dividing the quadro process alone can be another six months because that's a secondary order that has to be done once the divorce is finalized. So that can, that can take a good amount of time to get the division, you know, worked out with, uh, with a Quadro attorney. So those are just some high level ones.

Steve Altishin: Yeah. But, and in any of those that you've mentioned, there is a potential for a, a dispute, there is a potential to have to, you know, kind of get back in the trenches?

Lewis Landerholm: Yeah, we, and we hope to avoid them, but sometimes it's inevitable because, you know, either the ruling was, you know, just vague and people didn't fully understand, you know, what was supposed to happen or didn't take into consideration, you know, all of the nuances. But then there's the other part of it that just, you know, we, we what we issues, it's really hard to work with people during the divorce process because, you know, it's, it's emotional and, and people wanna, you know, divorce their spouse after the divorce process. It's 10 times more difficult because everybody feels like they're divorced because they're right. But now we still have to deal with these things that are intertwined. So it's a, it's a balancing act for sure. But we, you know, we just have to go through all of the issues one at a time to be able to help clients get to the actual finish line.

Steve Altishin: Yeah. And you know, even, even after the divorce and there are, you know, like you said, things that need to be, you know, transferred, things that are ordered to be done, but there are things to be done that aren't necessarily ordered but really kind of are part and parcel with the divorce. You know, especially if you have kids and maybe wanna change social security stuff, your driver's license, all those things. And like you had said, your will, those are important to really wrap up the divorce.

Lewis Landerholm: Yeah. Well, and and Steve, you work with our clients post a lot, uh, how often are you getting a call from somebody who was divorced a year ago, two years ago, and they have questions about how do I do this or what should happen in, in this in relation to my, my judgment? Does that happen? Does that happen often? Yeah,

Steve Altishin: It happens a lot. And the, the good part of having someone for them to call like, like, like we do and not have to, you know, say, oh my God, this came up, is it too trivial to call my attorney? Is it, you know, and, and what we've decided is no, it's not too trivial. Don't worry about that part of it. Don't worry about the cost or the triviality. You always get to call back and because the divorce is almost never over in reality, you know, I, I just had a call not that long ago about a, someone wanted to change their social, their social security and, and it had been eight months and they were just, and their, their question was, is there a timeframe? Can I not do it anymore? So there's like questions that, you know, there's no stupid question afterwards.

Lewis Landerholm: Yeah, well because like you said, like social security, you get the social security administration in, in play, you've got administrative rules, you've got very technical nuanced rules and it's, it's complicated. And, you know, that's why I think all of us are really happy to have you on board to be able to help our clients walk through all of those and not feel like have to get onto, you know, specifically an attorney's, you know, calendar right away that you can, you know, triage and, and problem solve 90% of it. And then if the answer is really yes, you need to talk to your attorney, then you get that scheduled. It really helps clients just be able to navigate those course, those post divorce issues that pop up all the time.

Steve Altishin: Yeah, yeah. And when they do, that's kind of the, the, the one last thing I was thinking about and, and it's not over till it's over, is that, you know, you can't let someone steal second bats. You, you know, somebody will try to do something that the divorce says they shouldn't do. And you know, that's where again, you guys take over and you know, either enforcement or on the flip side modification may be required.

Lewis Landerholm: Yeah, yeah. And that happens a lot, especially with parenting plans on the modification side or like a spousal support modification. But definitely on the enforcement side, when somebody isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing, we have to go back and have the judge, you know, slap them on the back of the hand and say, no, this is what was ordered, you have to do this, you know, then go. But unfortunately you have to go through that process and, but it's a necessary process at times.

Steve Altishin: Yeah. Yeah. Wow, this was great. I think that, that so many people when the divorce, even when the divorce decree is signed, when the, you know, when the ink dries, they think it's done. I never have to talk to my ex again or I never have talk to an attorney again and I can just move forward and put everything out of my mind. But that really isn't the case.

Lewis Landerholm: Yep. Not most of the time.

Steve Altishin: Not most of the time. So again, thanks Louis. This baseball analogy really does kind of work. You know, Yogi Berra was talking about, you know, in a game, in a, in a season, there again, it, it's not over till, it is actually over while it sounds, you know, likable. Of course, that's true. There are a lot of nuances that go into that. So really thanks for talking about those today. Very, very informative.

Lewis Landerholm: Yeah, you're welcome.

Steve Altishin: Everyone else. Thanks you for joining us today. Any further questions that you have, feel free to contact our firm. We can get you connected with an attorney who can help you. And of course, until next time, stay safe.