In this episode with I discuss the critical partnership between Rev Ops and Rev Enablement with Sandy Robinson, SVP of Revenue Operations and Enablement at Patra Corporation. Sandy shares her experiences and ways to unlock the synergies between these two teams regardless of where they report. Some of the topics we covered:
Sandy brings over 20 years of experience in sales, leadership, training, enablement, and revenue operations to the industry. She has a proven track record of driving revenue growth and optimizing operations through data-driven insights and innovative solutions. She has led sales teams to exceed targets, developed go-to-market strategies, and implemented scalable processes to drive growth.
Sandy's mission is to enable teams through intense focus on the complete customer buying journey related to systems, tools, training, and processes. Sandy enjoys mentoring younger women, helping them to navigate their careers, and setting an example for other women in her field.
Please subscibe on Apple, Spotify or Google.
In this episode with I discuss the critical partnership between Rev Ops and Rev Enablement with Sandy Robinson, SVP of Revenue Operations and Enablement at Patra Corporation. Sandy shares her experiences and ways to unlock the synergies between these two teams regardless of where they report. Some of the topics we covered:
Sandy brings over 20 years of experience in sales, leadership, training, enablement, and revenue operations to the industry. She has a proven track record of driving revenue growth and optimizing operations through data-driven insights and innovative solutions. She has led sales teams to exceed targets, developed go-to-market strategies, and implemented scalable processes to drive growth.
Sandy's mission is to enable teams through intense focus on the complete customer buying journey related to systems, tools, training, and processes. Sandy enjoys mentoring younger women, helping them to navigate their careers, and setting an example for other women in her field.
Please subscibe on Apple, Spotify or Google.
Welcome to the Revenue Enablement Society Stories from the Trenches, where enablement practitioners share their real-world experiences. Get the scoop on what's happening inside revenue enablement teams across the global RES community. Each segment of stories from the trenches shares the good, the bad and the ugly practices of corporate revenue enablement initiatives when not worked, what didn't work and how obstacles were eliminated by enablement teams and go-to-market leadership. Sit back, grab a cold one and join host Paul Butterfield, founder of Revenue Flywheel Group, for casual conversations about the wide and varied profession of revenue enablement, where there's never a one-size-fits-all solution.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Stories from the Trenches the Revenue Enablement Society podcast, where we bring together practitioners from all over the globe. We talk about the work that they're doing, the innovative ways they're finding of doing it, and sometimes things that didn't go so well, because there's lessons to be learned there as well. So we've got another great guest for you. This time I'm excited to introduce you to Sandy Robinson. Welcome, sandy.
Speaker 3:Thank you, paul, appreciate you having me today.
Speaker 2:I'm excited to have you here Now. Sandy is currently the SVP of Revenue Operations and Enablement at Patra Corporation. Sandy, I'll give you a minute or two just to talk a little bit about yourself and what you're working on, just so people can get to know you.
Speaker 3:Sounds great. So I started at Patra in about mid-April in a role where there previously wasn't a Rev Ops function. This is a 17-year-old company, so I've really focused on optimizing our HubSpot instance revamping comp plans. I mean, you name it consultative training. We're doing it all. So pull together an onboarding program that we brought on 15 people this summer so, as I was onboarding myself, created an onboarding program. I'm sure you get that. So prior to that, my experience has been in SaaS, fintech. I was in insurance for a long time and roles in sales, sales operations, leadership, rev Ops for I don't know 20 or some 20, some odd years I won't say the exact number, but yeah, so I'm again World 21 Sandy, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:Yes, I know, I know.
Speaker 2:All right, all right. So I am curious you had mentioned that you just got back from vacation. You have a vacation home down in the Keys. What was your favorite thing while you were there to do?
Speaker 3:Oh, I love going to the beach. I enjoy fishing, just kind of relaxing in the nice warm air. Even though I live in Florida, I'm a total baby, so the warmer the better for me.
Speaker 2:So sweater weather means go south, got it.
Speaker 3:Exactly exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a Florida kid too Not anymore, but I remember we would just be amazed this time of year when people from St Montreal would be headed down to the beach in their Speedos and were like, really, guys, it's not for people warm, but I guess I heard in Montreal it was feeling really good to them. Okay, all right, so let's get into the Jimmy Kimmel challenge. So those of you who haven't heard it before, jimmy Kimmel has decided to retire this coming year and because Sandy is so well connected, she's been offered his show. So, sandy, you can have anyone you want as your first guest on the couch. Who's going to be there and why did you choose them?
Speaker 3:I mean it has to be pink. She is like a feminist icon. I love her. She's humble, she's an amazing artist, just a great mom, a woman in general, and I actually met her once. I was on vacation and actually sipping Tequila with her and she didn't know that, or she didn't know that I knew who she was and I didn't indicate that. So it was just really cool, like she's super down to earth. You'd never know that she was a celebrity or star, if you just like kind of meet her on the side. So. But I'd love to like officially meet her and interview her. I think that'd be super awesome.
Speaker 2:That sounds really cool. So you're able to have just a human connection. There was no celebrity element to it. There was no. That's cool, yeah it really was All right.
Speaker 2:So let's get into what we're going to talk about today. This is a topic that's probably a little overdue. I've been doing this before years in March this year and so it's coming up pretty quick, actually at the time this airs. Let's talk about enablement and rev ops and from your title, clearly that's an area where you're spending time now, but just from previous conversations with you, and that's an area where you've been doing a lot of work and you have a lot of great experiences let's I want to talk about that, thank you. When we talk about, or people talk about, revops versus, or RevOps and enablement, how should those teams partner or does it matter where they report? Let's just kind of start there with your experience, and then we'll go deeper.
Speaker 3:Sure, I mean, coming from a sales background early in my career and through sales leadership, I think it was always just ingrained in the way that I looked at things, right. So, becoming a sales manager, you have to learn how to coach and train and all these things, hopefully and so now, but yeah, exactly, you think so. Flash forward, however, long later again I won't mention any years when you think about reporting structures, companies. We have more and more silos throughout organizations, right, and the reporting structures can be very different across organizations and I think ultimately we want those teams to really work hand in hand and they should follow the customer journey.
Speaker 3:I mean, that is truly what I passionately believe In. My world, revops and enablement is under one umbrella and it makes sense for what's happening, the size of our company. As companies get larger, I think it makes sense to have those functions have more specificity and specific leadership. But ultimately there needs to be a clear definition of roles and responsibilities and how they go hand in hand. So, for example, if it's under the CRO, then you would have, I would guess, a little bit easier path of coordinating that right.
Speaker 2:So, whether it's all called, In my experience at least, it is pretty easy yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it makes. It makes it a lot, a lot simpler as long as you're not kind of siloed out too much within your own organization, which does happen. But then when it falls out like, say, for example, there's a chief marketing officer and a chief revenue officer and then within that they've got kind of different levels of enablement and operations marketing, it starts to get more complicated. So ultimately, starting with the customer journey much like you would do anything else and roles and responsibilities among within the customer journey to sort out who's doing what and how can you really partner. But I think you have to be intentional about it, particularly if the reporting structure isn't under one function.
Speaker 2:Yeah, give it a little takes a little more thought. I mean, you're speaking to, you know, a big family. Talk customer journey, enablement, that is. Yeah, that's how I love to look at it too. In fact, when I don't know if I told you this, when I launched my company about a year ago, I was excited to find out no one had trademarked that, because I had been using that phrase. I'm sure it wasn't original to me, but nobody had nobody had had protected it. So, since I was launching a brand, I was able to grab that, because I look at it the same way.
Speaker 2:It's. How are we enabling all of the teams that are interfacing one way or another with with those customers? How are we trying to create? How are we creating, should say, an elevated experience? It's risky to try to compete on product features or price, and it's got to be some other reason that people want to do business with you. This is and this is it. So let's get into some specifics. So, taking what you just said, let's talk about an approach, let's say rolling out a new process, or perhaps it's even a full new sales methodology. Walk us through what that looks like with this, with a healthy partnership with enablement and Rebops.
Speaker 3:Sure, I see this a lot and you know I've been a part of companies where we've had challenges rolling out new methodologies and particularly if you're partnering with, like a third party to try to roll something out. But let's say you create a new sales methodology, right, you're going to use Challenger, you're going to use Command of the Message or whatever elements that you create in Bake, and I don't side know, I don't particularly say you know, I'm not married to one or the other. I think you just have to calibrate and use the best pieces of each methodology and calibrate within your own company. So that's probably a whole other topic. But in terms of you know the methodology, I see this all the time where you roll something out and then you have the forgetting curve. People totally, you know, kind of drift off. They go to this like whether it's a webinar in person or something. Company spends a ton of money and then you fail to do, you know, align the process and the systems, and a lot of times that's because one department is touting this one thing, getting it rolled out, like hey, we're doing this, and they haven't really collaborated with the other departments. So I really believe you have to connect the methodology, to the process and to the systems and make sure it all works together. If you don't have all three of those aligned, your initiative will fail. So mark my words you will fail.
Speaker 3:And you know, we rolled out MedPick last summer. So we had some training, we had to train the trainer, actually got certified, all this stuff, and so that's great. That's kind of one piece of it. And then we documented the process. How does that work within the customer journey? What do we have to do to align the stages in HubSpot? We use HubSpot for our CRM, so what needs to happen there? What are the stage requirements? Putting together that playbook, and then we aligned Gong, created a board in Gong, we created the functionality within HubSpot and then train the people on the systems. Then there's reporting and everything. So you have to have that kind of full picture and if you don't have enablement and RevOps working together or whatever that looks like in your organization, you're doomed to fail.
Speaker 3:So having all three of those components, I think is super critical, and enablement is really the glue that holds that all together. Because, as you know, if you get enablement involved and for me it's like put on my enablement hat, because I'm kind of doing both right now. But if you get enablement involved early, they're going to figure out okay, where do we need to surface these documents in the system, and they can work with RevOps and figure out what fields and how this works together and do we need training? And that training should be a combination of some sort of maybe it's a video meeting, maybe it's an SOP doc, maybe it's a social learning, a channel in Slack, whatever it is, but it's kind of kind of all worked together. And this even goes back to like for anybody who has a training background, like the old school ad-y model right, is just really tying all of those things together, and you know.
Speaker 3:But we can't forget to do it. We can't just like throw something out there and expect it to work. You know, it's just to get against the wall. We just kind of shove it out there, we got the thing done, we did it at our kickoff and then this thing just goes by the wayside when people get back and they get into their grind and their email boxes and all this other crap. So obviously I get real excited about this stuff, but you have to put it all together and package it or it doesn't work.
Speaker 2:It doesn't yet. Yet so many companies still trying to do it that way I was talking a couple months ago.
Speaker 3:Oh sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was what I was going to say. I was talking with a prospective client the other day and this is a head of sales that I've known for years. In fact, I used to work with him, respect him in many ways. Yet when I talked to them about what they were doing with their methodology, he's like oh, we had everybody watch some training, some med pic training videos, so we're good to go. And yeah, so again, right, this is a guy very, very smart sales leader, very successful in other ways. But yeah, there's still work to do there. Definitely is they're checking the box.
Speaker 3:No, yeah, I mean it's like you're checking the box and I hate to say it, but sometimes the big kind of monster training companies that are out there they feed off of that because they get you to now sign up for their reinforcement program and then sign up for this and add more, add on this and this, and they're loving that because you, as the leader in your organization, failed to put together a sustainable program and you didn't tie those three things together. So I think it just goes back to that core methodology, to process, to systems, making sure that all works together, and the offshoot of that is the reporting, the analytics and the continuous improvement from it. So you have to actually do something about it, monitor it and make sure, and that's where enablement and RevOps again can come hand in hand very nicely.
Speaker 2:To do what you're just what you're talking about, which, again, I couldn't agree more. You've got to have the right systems, and you've mentioned a couple of times is there any more to be said about how RevOps and Navelet work together and even evaluating and selecting and deploying those systems? So, in other words, I've come into companies and you probably have two where, yes, we really need a methodology, but we don't have the infrastructure ready to roll out a methodology and the way that you've described and have it stick, and so you have to even take a step back and evaluate that. Can we talk about that for a minute? What does that look like? How do those two teams work together, or should they work together?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that can be tough because they might have their own budgets for tech, right, and then people want to own the budget and they want to. You know, this is my tool, this is your tool and those kind of things. But so it starts to get challenging. But you know, if you think about any tech selection, you have to have the right stakeholders involved. So it even starts with who's using the tool. So like, for example, if you have a prospecting tool, you want to get an SDR, maybe somebody who is like a power user and they're kind of you know, into the system. You can use them even later as an SME.
Speaker 3:Get the sales leader, marketing leader, enablement all the people involved early on in the selection process. So I have a you know kind of a way to go through like a rubric for decision criteria and then each person weighs in on the key things that you know matter to them, to their department and then to the overall customer journey. So if you think of that, you have to always have the right stakeholders, and enablement should have a seat at the table early in the selection process if it impacts the you know in their realm of responsibility. So like, for let's just pretend it's, you know, marketing, sales and customer success in a perfect world, and they have that involvement and they're going to be able to think of things critically, and then so does RevOps, because RevOps will think of things like, for example, marketing.
Speaker 3:I've had this experience not that long ago. Marketing would create, you know, okay, here's our enablement tool that we decided to use for the company. We've set it up, we put all the cool stuff, whatever, whatever. And then RevOps is like Dude, it doesn't work with the CRM, there's no integration, so like that's a situation that I'm dealing with and because there wasn't a full suite of people in the selection process, that would catch, you know, because every let's side note.
Speaker 2:That's a big miss, though.
Speaker 3:Well, every company says every vendor, every great salesperson, is going to tell you their tool integrates to whatever CRM you're using, and that's not untrue, right? Yeah, sure, Everybody's got an open API. But you know, come on, there are a lot of limitations, particularly when you're, you know, depending on your CRM. Obviously, salesforce has like a ton of options, and then the scope narrows as you go down right.
Speaker 3:So that's just an example. Like not getting RevOps involved and maybe enablements doing that kind of thing, and, on the flip side, if RevOps isn't getting enablement involved, how do you know how? How are you going to set it up? I mean, these are the folks that are going to own the content, own the materials, and they need to be experts in the system so they can train on the system. So why not have them in early? So you can't make the party too big, though, because if you have too many people involved, it starts getting really ugly and messy. So you have to have like a true racy chart to determine what your roles and responsibilities are in the selection process and align on like an ultimate criteria. Like there's some deal breakers, like my deal breaker it always is when I ran a Salesforce shop there's got to be an app on the App Exchange, right?
Speaker 3:That's my deal breaker, because I don't want to. I don't even want to mess with other integrations, I just don't because it takes time development and there's plenty of options out there. You can narrow it down and that helps narrow down your field. So you have to like, have your deal breakers and whatever that is, and everybody should weigh in and agree on them. So maybe there's five key people in the selection process that you pick, or something.
Speaker 2:So I mean, that's in an ideal world. So enough of a group to get, yeah, so you're getting enough different perspectives, but you're not getting bogged down in, you know, over analysis by committee, I guess for lack of a better phrase yeah, like if you send a group email to 15 sales managers like you're gonna, you're never gonna get anywhere.
Speaker 3:So you pick the one representative sales manager that's going to speak for the group and their vote is the one that matters, and you know, for the various groups. So that's the way I do it.
Speaker 2:I've heard this attributed to various people over time, but I love the expression that a fool with a tool is still a fool, and it sounds like you would agree with that. So let's talk a little bit about, you know, train the trainer and adoption and making these things sticky.
Speaker 3:I mean you have to let them use it, try it out, break it and give you feedback. That's huge. I'll just give you an example. Last week we turned on a bunch of changes in HubSpot. We put daily office hours on and a form to submit to say like hey, first of all, if they found any bugs, but second of all like just suggestions and things and screenshots. And you usually you have to get feedback because at the end of the day, if it's not set up where it's usable, they're not going to use it. Or they're going to make a spreadsheet and do it on their own. They're not going to do it in the system.
Speaker 2:Or their notebook. I've had that one, it's all in. Here You're waving a notebook at you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's in my Google Tasks or whatever, and it's like you know it's so. It's a responsibility I think, of RevOps and enablement to make sure or the user experience, our internal user experience, our customers are able to do what they need in a timely manner, see what they need to see, know what they need to get accomplished. The worst thing you can do is ask for their feedback and not do anything about it either. The tools they don't just magically work. The sales leaders need to use them. In prior worlds, you know I had this one sales leader that I would work with and you know this person just would never actually show up for the trainings, didn't know how to do it themselves, and you know we would chase around in the CRM to update this person's stuff for them and they couldn't train their own team and it's the manager has to own it.
Speaker 3:So not just the RevOps and enablement, revops, enablement is to support the managers, train the trainers and they need to own it and they need to hold their teams accountable to using it and getting the feedback. So that's why I always say train the trainer. It's like we've got to teach the managers. Get the managers buy in, because if the managers do it, their team sure as hell is not going to do it, that's for sure. So that's, that's the way I look at it.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Good for you, not for me. Never works, never works.
Speaker 3:Right, exactly. Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 2:You reminded me of someone I hadn't thought about in a long time, when I won't say names, but when I was at Vonage we actually had a sales. He was either VP or was he one level up from that. He had two VPs reporting to him. Now that I think of it, and it was a point of pride for this individual that he had never opened up Salesforce. So I mean, like, like, like, yeah, it was a point of pride. It was like I don't need that. Right, I know how to run a sales territory. I don't need, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so you can imagine that created all sorts of compliance issues within anybody that reported to him, because they're all like well, he's not using it, so why should I put anything in there? Because he's not going to look at it anyway. And, yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 3:Well, not to mention the rest of this person's managers and RevOps, sales ops, whoever they're having to probably build spreadsheets and decks and stuff on the side for this person because they refuse to actually look in the CRM, which may have all the information right there. So, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, he was managed out eventually, so it got better. All right, so not by me, but by the powers, that be All right. So One of the other things when you and I were talking that are so critical when you're rolling out Things together is also the reporting. How are you tracking that adoption? How do you know if it's even meeting the objectives? Me you clear? Well, hopefully you had clear outcomes and problems that you were trying to solve for when you selected this piece of tech, this program, to bring it in. But how do you start reporting and measuring to see if it was, if it was the right choice, was successful?
Speaker 3:Talk to us a little bit about that I was like to start with some sort of an objective, like what you said. What problem are you trying to solve? So, for example, with our hub spot we're calling it hub spot two dot, oh, we're making, you know, made a bunch changes and it was kind of solving for a number of Challenges that we are having prior to me joining company, and so the objectives are to reduce a cancel rate I won't get into the exact numbers but reduce, reduce our cancellation and reduce our push rates, because reps are pushing deals consistently from like the thirty to the fifteen, to the thirty to fifteen, things like that. So those are like the objectives, so they're pretty simple to track right, because those are kind of out of the box. Hub spot report. So I but we're getting down to the rep level, seeing where the behavior because it's usually driven by two, three, two, three, four people that are, you know, really driving the number and then that's where really enablement comes in, because where now, what do you do about that? Right, you've got this data point, this information, and how do you then go back and address those issues with particularly, let's say, there's four people that are pushing those bars way over there? You don't need to deploy new training for the whole team. You just want to address those people and find out why are their deals pushing, what? What's happening there?
Speaker 3:So I think, but you have to look at that frequently. It's not good enough to just be like, oh, here's an objective, will check it at the end of next quarter, see how it, how it went, like I want to be in front of it, look like literally every week, every month, and and how can we get in front of these things in real time? I mean, it's so great, most of the data and and all these tools available in real time, right. So yeah, it's, you can adjust and iterate and but yeah, you just have to make the reporting aligned with the key objectives. You're pretty basic, but don't over complicate it, because you over complicated, it's gonna make it Too much of a bear to try to figure out and everything. So, just what are those? You know, kpis, it's, it's key is a reason. And what are? What are the leading indicators from that? Right, like, how do you detect that ahead of time? And just a line about narrowing those down sandy.
Speaker 2:If anything, you're right. There's so much data and so much available in real time. If anything, I can see people getting bogged down in it rather than not having enough. So any advice for those people listening on again, you could measure a thousand things. How do you pick the right? As you say, the K is for key, what are the key actual keeper for its indicators, etc. What process do you follow to get to that?
Speaker 3:I always think of my job is driving revenue. So what is gonna have the biggest impact to revenue now this year? And because revenue recognition of you know if anyone's in SAS, that's the key thing on your mind. You can sell all the ACV you want, sign all the contracts if you want, but if it doesn't go live, nothing matters. Right, there's no revenue.
Speaker 2:you say clawback. At least that's exactly that's what I think of all those years in SAS sales clawback, yeah clawback exactly what that in the goal?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah, yeah, writing a comp plan with that in it right now. So, anyway, if you go, you think about that. So what are the things that are gonna have the biggest impact? Is it? I mean, when I looked at our org, I mean I have, I have a list like that goes a lot like this list, it's like probably three, four pages of All the challenges that we have, but what are the ones that are gonna make a material impact and that are gonna make a material impact sooner versus later? So how can we impact this years plan number?
Speaker 3:and then, translating that to a sales person, how can we impact your paycheck now, right, and so I think that's what you have to narrow it down to, because you have to sell, you have to sell the stuff upwards to write, you have to not just justify your tech, but they want to know that this is Adopting, that this initiative we've we put out is actually working. So what do you? Does this align with your company blueprint or whatever that is? And and pick those impactful ones, which is why I picked cancel rate and push rate, because those are two direct impacts of go live, which is revenue faster, which means more revenue in year and anyway. So that's just. That's the way I always look at it. You know, if you're in the revenue business is how do you? What's the biggest impact of revenue?
Speaker 2:You're talking about pushes in Salesforce or CRM. The longest, the oldest deal I personally can remember ever encountering when doing some audit and cleanup was just under 1100 days, like a thousand eight nine days, and I just wanted to pick up the phone and call the rep and say so are you thinking it's going to be day 1190? You know, is there something fundamentally?
Speaker 1:or should we just take this?
Speaker 2:out. Yeah, it's amazing how these deals get life, develop a life of their own sometimes.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, I mean I've. We just did a major cleanup over the summer. I mean there were some deals that were, like you know, 395 days, 460. I think the average was like to 218 or something. It was crazy. So we did a lot of cleanup, but a lot of that really went back to. That's why rolling out something like MedPick or another qualification process is so important not to go down a rabbit hole. But you have to qualify deals out of your pipeline too and, for whatever reason, reps just want to like hang on to it and and it's like, well, they need that 2.7x.
Speaker 2:Whenever the boss looks, there's got to be 2.7x in there, never mind if it's it's like ghost opportunities, right, but it looks good. Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's. I think back to my days as a sales rep, and, if I was honest, my main objective in a weekly pipeline review was just to you know, keep the boss happy for another week, right, keep your job. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, this has been fun, but we are actually running up on time, which is which is amazing, because it doesn't seem like it. But, thank you. I don't want to let you go, though, and without having you drop one more piece of knowledge or wisdom on us, and this may or may not be related to what we've been talking about, but if you were given the gift of time travel, with the couple limitations one, you can only go back and visit some younger version of yourself, and, number two, you can only coach yourself in one area, what is the number one thing you wish you'd understood earlier in life or in your career?
Speaker 3:I think it's being a great collaborator and coming from sales as an individual contributor, you're you're hunting and running out to close the next deal and everything, and I think the the value in later on in learning how to apply my sales skills to internal collaboration and working with other leaders, managing up working with other teams, working with peers and understanding how best to communicate with them, but also be effective, right and get results, because these things don't work if you don't work together across silos and departments, even within your own team. So I think that that would be. That would be the advice and I always go back to. Like Steve and Covey, I'm kind of an old school.
Speaker 3:Seven habits of highly effective people person learn that way back in the day but seek first to understand, then be understood. So that is huge when you're working with other people, because, first of all, sometimes they might view you as a threat or a change in their world and things like that. But just really trying to understand their world, whether it's the teams that you serve, your peers, other departments within your organization it's always great to you know to really take that approach.
Speaker 2:All right, thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Thanks for spending your time and have this conversation with us. I'm excited for this one to drop in the next month or so Anything else before we go.
Speaker 3:No, I just I'm excited about this. I really appreciate the conversations that we have and this whole idea of RevOps and revenue enablement just really working together hand in hand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me too. It's the only way that it can work, and I've been in both. I've been in situations where the teams worked very well together and situations where there was almost an adversary relationship, and it's tough. You make it work, but it's not easy, so all right. Well, thank you to everyone who's spent the last half hour with Sandy and I as well. We appreciate your loyalty. We appreciate you investing your time with us, and we'll be back in two weeks with another great episode.
Speaker 1:Thanks for joining this episode of Stories from the Trenches. For more revenue enablement resources, be sure to join the Revenue Enablement Society at resocietyglobal. That's resocietyglobal.