Sustainable Parenting | The kind and firm solution for resilient kids and dependable calm.

132. How to get Kids to Sleep in Their Own Beds, Even if They Beg You to Stay | Karen Winter

• Flora McCormick, LCPC, Parenting Coach

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If nighttime currently feels like a hostage situation — tiny footsteps down the hall, endless requests for “one more kiss,” or a child who can only fall asleep if you stay glued to the side of their bed — you are so not alone. 

So many loving parents find themselves exhausted by bedtime battles, thinking, “I cannot have this battle right now. I’m done. I’m exhausted. Why does this have to be so hard?!”

In this episode, Flora welcomes Certified Pediatric Sleep Consultant Karen Winter of Winter Slumber: https://winterslumber.com/ to bring relief, clarity, and a fresh dose of hope. 

Through the lens of kind and firm parenting, we explore practical strategies that maintain connection while helping kids learn the life skill of sleeping in their own space.  Why? Because at Sustainable Parenting we believe in guiding kids to become confident sleepers, while also having a loving bond.  We believe you don’t have to turn yourself into a prisoner of nighttime wake-ups, in order to be a “good mom”.

By the time you finish listening, you will discover:


• How to respond when your child pops out of bed again (and again).


• Loving boundaries that end the cycle of “one more drink…” requests.


• A step-by-step approach for kids who rely on you lying next to them to fall asleep.


• Tools for discipline during night wake-ups, without yelling OR giving in.


• How night-time wake-ups are actually a great space to practice growing new skills for raising a resilient kid.

This conversation is your ticket to being the calm, confident parent you really want to be (even at the end of the day). 

Freedom from bedtime battles is possible, and you do not have to do it alone. Tune in to learn how even gentle parenting can have firm boundaries, so everyone can finally rest easy. 🌙✨ You can give comfort without giving up your evenings. You can offer reassurance while still guiding your child toward independence. You can support emotional needs without sacrificing your own sleep.

✨Want more?

✨ Schedule a FREE 20 min clarity call with Sustainable Parenting, so we can answer any questions you may have. Together, we'll make a plan for your best next steps to have more calm & confidence in parenting - while having kids that listen!:)

✨ Download the FREE pdf. on getting kids to listen, for strategies that take you out of the "gentle mom - monster mom" cycle, with effective positive parenting strategies.

✨ Sign up for an upcoming LIVE ONLINE workshop with Flora, or purchase a past replay: https://sustainableparenting.com/workshop where you get 30 min. of learning and 30 min. of LIVE Q & A time, with replays sent afterwards.

✨ Buy a 3 session Coaching Bundle (saving you $100) - for THREE 30-min sessions 1:1 with ME, where we get right to the heart of your challenges, and give you small, powerful shifts that make a huge difference fast.

SPEAKER_00:

If your kid is two, five, seven, still waking up, there are solutions. If you want to make a change, it's really possible. In this episode, we talk with a sleep coach who shares the key tips that can help your child stay asleep. From sleepless to sweet dreams, helping kids stay in their own beds. Friend, I'm Flora McCormick, licensed therapist, parenting coach, and early childhood mental health consultant with almost 20 years' experience helping families like yours. Hello and welcome to the Sustainable Parenting Podcast. Let me tell you, friend, this place is different. We fill that gap between gentle parenting and harsh discipline that's really missing to parent with kindness and firmness at the same time. And give you the exact steps to be able to parent in ways that are more realistic and effective. And for that reason, finally feel sustainable. Welcome. If you'd like to leave a review to share how sustainable parenting has been impacting your life, I would be so grateful. It helps others to know what's possible in their families too. And you can do so easily by scrolling to the bottom of all episodes, clicking on that fifth star, and leaving a comment. Also be sure you subscribe to the podcast so that you regularly get the downloads each week and don't miss a single tool and strategy to be parenting with more kindness and firmness at the same time. So parenting finally feels sustainable. One of the top questions that I am always getting is how do I get my kid to quit coming in my room in the middle of the night or me having to sleep next to my child in order for them to go back to sleep in the middle of the night. And we're so lucky today to have Karen Winter here with us. Karen is a certified pediatric sleep consultant and the founder of Winter Slumber, which plays on her last name, where she helps parents of toddl and preschoolers, that sweet spot of age two through seven, move from exhaustion to restful nights. She has over 20 years of experience in early childhood education and really specializes in tackling those big sleep struggles of early childhood, bedtime battles, overnight wakes, and transitions out of naps. So we're so, so glad to have you. And she's also a mom. So Hi, I'm glad to be here. Yes. And let's dive in. I mean, I can think of a couple just the other day that I was talking with that was literally both in tears, the husband and wife, because it had been months of struggle where their four-year-old was coming into their room in the middle of the night and having all kinds of excuses. I need another drink of water, I need a teddy bear, I want just one more hug. And the parents tried everything, tried talking with her, soothing her back to sleep, sometimes like um getting angry because the one parent um would end up getting frustrated that the softer approach wasn't working and then sort of be like, go to bed, you are not allowed to do this. This is not what four-year-olds do. Understandably, right? So those two sides of overly gentle, overly harsh, neither one of them was loving where they were ending up and that it wasn't working. But, you know, the only other option felt like laying next to her, which was then kind of feeding the whole cycle, continuing. So I would love to get your ideas on what you do when families bring a problem like this to you.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. And it's so common, especially in, you know, as I said, this this two to seven-year-old age group where um they're kind of exploring boundaries, they know that their behavior can change um responses. And so I think really for parents, and I'm sure you provided this, is having that plan of action. Like, what can we come together on in the middle of the night when we're both exhausted and just want to sleep? Uh, you know, like what are we supposed to do? And as you said, a lot of times it's either or where it's I'm just gonna shut this down, go back to bed. Or I know a lot of parents, you know, they walk them back to bed a million trillion times overnight. Other times it's I'm just gonna lay here. And so what I like to, you know, tell families that I work with is sometimes we forget this is a skill set that we're teaching. And so with teaching a skill set, we don't just, you know, I I relate it back to riding a bike. We don't just say like go and figure it out, right? Like to shut it down, or just like go back to bed. Right because they're not sure what to do. They're awake. We all wake up overnight, we all wake up between sleep cycles. And their go-to now, even if it hadn't been, is I'm gonna come and find mom and dad. Um, or I'm gonna have mom and dad lay with me, or whatever that is. And that's what they've then started to get into a habit of this is what I need in order to fall back to sleep. Um, and so going back to that bike analogy, we really need to teach the skill set, give some initial support, and then start to strip away. Because if we're always holding on to that bike, they're never gonna learn what to do, right? I mean, if you're just gonna lay next to them or they're gonna lay next to you and bad, and if ultimately that's not what you want, they're not gonna learn what to do. So, what I really like to help parents with is to come up with a three-step overnight wake plan, is what I call it. And that's you're talking with the kiddo about what are three things you can do when you wake up overnight. That doesn't include coming and getting mom and dad or mom and dad sleeping in your bed. And you talk about this during the day when they're not exhausted. Um and you know, they can role-play it during the day. You can make it playful, but a lot of times it's as simple as I'm gonna pull up my blanket, I'm gonna hug my teddy bear, and I'm gonna take three deep belly breaths. Um, you know, or or just close my eyes, whatever it might be. And you kind of have them help you, although you're guiding it, help you come up with this plan so they feel like they're a part of this, that you're not telling them this is what you have to do. Um, and I've even had clients like they turn it into a song and they're singing this song before they go to bed, or however you can make it thankful.

SPEAKER_00:

I love that a song or a little social story that has stick figures and you've kind of made that, or you have a little rhyme or something. Like those things always have stuck with my kids, like with getting out the door. We started this like shoes on, coats on, out the door, shoes on, coats on, out the door. And it like then becomes this mantra for them. And so yeah, I could see. I've never thought of incorporating that into that what those three pieces are the child is gonna do to soothe themself back to sleep. Love that so much.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of times parents will be like, well, we'll tell them how to do this, but they're not gonna do it. And again, it's well, yes, you have to slowly phase yourself out. So initially you're gonna walk them back, you're gonna do that little chant, you're gonna remind them, you know, what those three steps are, help them with it. And then the next night you might walk to the middle of the room and say, Hey, remember this? Go ahead, do it. And then the next night you're just gonna walk to the doorway. So you're slowly kind of building yourself out of that, and they're creating a new habit. And, you know, just as you said, with getting your shoes and coat on to get out the door, it's a habit that you have to create and it's gonna take a little bit of time. So it's not an instant fix, but I mean, within within a week, two weeks, they should be able to wake up and do it. And it's super exciting when parents still have like that monitor and they can see them wake up and do it. Um, and and it's something that is going to happen. And I'll backtrack just slightly in saying that the first step would be to make sure they can fall asleep at bedtime too, without you. Because oftentimes if you're laying there with them at bedtime, that's just the only way they know how to fall asleep. So you can do that same thing at bedtime to help with those overnight wakes.

SPEAKER_00:

And let me tell you, this was one of the biggest ahas I had when I started learning things from you and following your information about sleep training and sleep support was how a child falls asleep is how they are gonna want to fall back asleep. And that may seem super simple, but I can't tell you the number of parents that I've shared that with that have been like, oh, like that's like a huge mind-blowing awareness. Like, oh yeah, I hadn't connected the dots of those two things. And so yeah, the habit if they can't fall asleep without you, they're not gonna be able to fall back asleep without you laying next to them. Um, so yeah, backing up to that, what do you do to shift that pattern then?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, absolutely. And like you said, when I first became certified, that too was to me, because I had struggled with sleep with my kiddo when she was a baby. And I'm like, oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. And there's a term that says sleep association. So if you hear that, you hear people, that's what it is. It's how they fall asleep at bedtime is what they associate with this is how I sleep. And so when they're waking up overnight, that's what they're looking for. So a lot of times the kiddos that I work with are usually bed sleepers, um, or you know, at that age where they have a lot of stamina. And so saying goodnight and leaving often leads to a lot of crying and a lot of tantruming. And so I I often find with this age, again, phasing yourself out over a week time or two weeks time is going to really help them build their confidence. They're going to um learn that skill set. And so oftentimes it's rather than laying with them in bed, you're gonna start sitting in a chair next to their bed at bedtime. And then after a couple nights of that, you can sit in the middle of the room and a couple nights after. So you're just slowly phasing yourself out. They're learning, they're building that confidence, and you know, you're showing that I'm gonna stick to this. And that's what you would do then overnight too. But once they have that skill set and you're able to say, right, good night, see you in the morning. There might be a little back and forth, right? There might be a little stalling. But once they can fall asleep at night, then that's where that three-step overnight plan can really make the difference.

SPEAKER_00:

I love this thought of teaching them how do they, you know, their little plan of three things they're gonna do to be able to fall back asleep without needing to come in your room. I just want to ask a like uh devil's advocate question because I know this was happening for this family. Like you said, we're talking kids that can get out of their bed, walk down the hallway. And so, what do you suggest when they're still coming to you in the middle of the night? And then it's just practice, practice, practice, or is there anything else important in that mix?

SPEAKER_01:

You have to have the understanding that that habit of coming and getting you is in place. And so now it's reteaching and relearning and unwinding that habit and replacing it with something different. And I forget what the statistic is, but it takes like 30 to 60 days to create a habit or something like that. Like it's massive. Yeah, it's not gonna take you that long to build this habit. Um, usually, like I said, maybe two weeks. Um, but it is, it's a lot of okay, she woke up, she came to get me, I'm gonna walk her back on this first night, first night of implementation. I'm gonna help her with those three steps, uh, remind her of those three steps, and then I'm gonna go back to bed. She's probably gonna come get you again. You're gonna do the same thing again for that first night. But then that second night, she got that practice. She understands they're really holding this boundary. They're really gonna walk me back every single night and tell me my plan every single night. And I tell parents, like, you are gonna feel like a broken record, yeah, but that's okay because that's gonna provide safety and confidence to that child where they're meaning what they're saying and they're following through.

SPEAKER_00:

I I think also probably it's helpful when parents can anticipate there's likely gonna be like what we clinically call an extinction burst, or in like regular terms, we call the kick-the-vending machine response, like, wait a minute, I thought I could push this button and get a candy bar. Um, that and just being prepared for that. That doesn't mean it's not working. It doesn't mean it's not gonna be able to be a habit we shift. It just means that's a very normal reaction when something's gone one direction and you're changing it, that there's a little resistance and that can get bigger before it gets smaller.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up because that usually happens where it's like the first couple nights are good and parents are excited, and then it's like, oh my gosh, last night it was it was not what it had. Sometimes worse. Yes. And and again, you know, I tell the parents that's good, it's good as long as the parents follow through, right? She's now learned that no matter what I'm doing, I love the vending machine image. Um, it's nothing shifting, you know. And then it usually does get easier after that, and the follow-through happens and and the confidence. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

This comes back to, I know you and I, Karen, have talked several times about the overlap between parent coaching and learning around kind of firm discipline and overnight sleep. Um, and so I guess I also am wondering about what do you do to help parents that are like you they have some guilt that even though they know they're teaching good habits, there's like, but boy, those kids can pull out all the stops of things that wrench on your heart. Um, they don't just say, Mom, I'd like to stall bedtime. No, they say things like, but I'm gonna miss you and I want you, right?

SPEAKER_01:

Like, yes. Oh, yeah, they know how to pull on those heart strings. You're absolutely right. And I think having some scripts and some things to pull out is always helpful too, because when when you're emotional, and even if it's a good emotional, you're like, oh my gosh, it's so cute. Of course I'll lay with you for 15 more minutes or you know, whatever it is. Having that script is gonna be really helpful for you and for the child because again, then they're going to understand, gosh, she always responds with that. And you know, and it could be, I love you so much and I love snuggling with you too. And we had our snuggle time tomorrow during the day. We can have more. I'll see you in the morning. You know, uh, just validating that, like, yes, I would love to snuggle with you too, but we need to sleep right now. It's time to sleep. And I think that helps parents too, where you know, they're like, Well, am I ruining like our attachment? Am I you know, am I not meeting their needs? Am I those kinds of things that you know that guilt comes in? And it's you spent a whole day filling, fulfilling those needs, and you know, as long as you are, but most parents are, and and connecting with them, and that's what that bedtime routine is for, is connection. And so just remind yourself that yes, it's hard because it's that ultimate separation at bedtime if that's what you're working towards, but you've spent so many hours loving on them and spending time with them that this bit of time where you're apart is not going to hinder anything. And if anything, it's going to help you because I know for a fact I can't sleep well when my child's in bed with me. And then when I don't sleep well, my days don't go well.

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, and when you're in these sort of patterns where you feel almost like held hostage by this whole negotiation process and not sleeping well, you start resenting your kid. I mean, let's like like the softest version is you're tired and you're not as good of a mom that way. Harshest version version, which I've seen in myself and is real for many people, is I'm starting to not even like my kid because this is infuriating and I'm exhausted and I need my sleep. And so, yeah, to preserve your relationship with your kid, there's a value to doing this hard thing. So, I guess in summary, Karen, um, I have gained so much and shared so much with my clients from your resources. One of them that I love the best that I would love to suggest to our um listeners is your overnight wake PDF. Um, can you just tell us a little bit about what someone would get if they purchased that$9 item or how else they could follow up with you?

SPEAKER_01:

Most of those you can find at my website, which is winterslumber.com. Um, and then within my content, both on Facebook and Instagram, which is at winterslumber sleep, uh, you'll be able to find information about my toolkits and other freebies that I offer to families.

SPEAKER_00:

Awesome. Karen, thank you for providing us hope here that sleep deprivation doesn't have to be the new norm. Thank you so much for these strategies and for the resource of knowing we can reach out more.