Episode #44: Kobie Wagener, MSOS, SHRM - CP, Workforce Program Manager

Kobie Wagener joins this episode of Hiring U! to share his perspectives as a former leader of numerous talent teams and now as a job seeker himself!

"Concerning back to office, I feel like post covid, many people can be a little intimidated by the face-to-face interaction. Like it's it's a tolerance that we need to build up for face-to-face interaction since it is a bigger lift. But we get more out of face-to-face interaction which is why back to the office is such an important topic. "

- Kobie Wagener

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Transcript

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Jon Beck: [00:00:00] What's up, everybody? Welcome to episode number 44 of Hiring University. Today, we're going to spend 20 minutes or so with Kobe Wagner. Kobe is a contingent workforce leader, having led programs through Magnet, Eastridge, most recently at an alternative energy company, Bloom Energy. Kobe, your LinkedIn title, lists you as a workforce program manager, which I don't really think does justice to your body of work.

And we're going to unpack that in our conversation today. But first of all, welcome to Hiring U. Hi, John. 

Thank 

Kobie Wagener: you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. 

Jon Beck: Kobi, you also have a Master's of Science in Organizational Development from USF. In the last five years, with COVID and all the changes that have happened to us as a society globally, and certainly here in the United States, we've had to embrace remote work and then return work, and there's been quiet quitting and quiet hiring.

There's just so many significant shift changes in how companies manage their workforce. I want to dig [00:01:00] into that on a couple of different levels, but starting at the highest level as a contingent worker today, is life better now than it was five years ago?

Kobie Wagener: Well, I think it's, I think it depends. I think that what, my graduate degree in organizational development has taught me is that the answer to most things is that it depends.

If we focus on things like working remotely, and I don't think the verdict is in on the working remotely versus going into the office. The thing that we're trying to figure out is. What kind of balance should we strike?

 I feel like we're better off if we don't spend all our time at home. I feel like we're better off if we still are part of a community that has a face to face interaction. So, as such, I think that once we figure out that the face to face interaction, even though [00:02:00] it's takes more effort and coordination, I I feel like if we want to say that we're going to be better off, I think that's something that we, we have to, we have to really get back to, and it's kind of like, if we haven't been in the gym for a while, we have to get back in.

Once we're there, it's not going to be as hard, but getting there is pretty tough. 

Jon Beck: Yeah. Oh, I love that analogy. It feels good once you get there. Yeah. It was 

Kobie Wagener: good once you're there. As far as, are we better off? I think it also depends on how we spend our energy. It's harder and harder to become focused on on what on what our priorities are.

And with so many distractions, I think it's, becoming harder and harder to stay focused. In fact, I was I was in an interview a few weeks ago, and the hiring manager felt that it's okay to take the zoom [00:03:00] call from her car as a passenger.

So. I feel like five years ago, the temptation probably wouldn't have been there. And so even though I feel like she would have had to take responsibility for, you know, not spending that that focus on me as a candidate, I also feel like there's this element that's being introduced to our interactions, which is very difficult to resist sometimes.

I feel like we are better off because we have these amazing productivity tools. However, I think we really need to take a very close look at, at how we utilize them and, and it's going to be a huge left because distraction is just becoming greater and greater and our, resistance to it is not always, the easiest, 

Jon Beck: Let me unpack that a little bit for you.

First of all, I think what you're describing is partially about etiquette. And, respect for people's [00:04:00] times, all these tools that are now available to us are wonderful case in point, you and I are able to record a podcast here, sitting in different locations in the past, maybe you'd have to come to me or I'd come to you, there's, there's obviously some wonderful parts about that, but what, if I hear what you're saying is sometimes they're abused and we're not maybe slowing down enough to give the appropriate time and respect.

To the interaction and your example of the car interview. I feel the same way if I'm interviewing somebody and they choose to take that interview in the car and and maybe they have a reason for it and they disclose. Okay, that's okay. But if they weren't willing to take the time to find a place to sit down, that's quiet where they can focus.

That says something about them to me, right? Yeah. 

Kobie Wagener: I think it's really, you know, it's an interesting, I think it's a shared responsibility. I feel like it's funny because I've talked to some of my peers about my experience and , the common denominator in the answers was, well, [00:05:00] find a way to politely say, let's reschedule.

I think organizations need to, , take some ownership and do, you know, surveys with candidates post interview and then also set up manager for success. 

So 

Jon Beck: do you think that this part of this may be generational? And what I mean by that is, if, if you're a, uh, a younger entrant into the workforce and have been grown up with social media as part of your existence, that maybe they don't mind. No, 

Kobie Wagener: I, I, I feel like, , I feel like anyone who has prepared for an interview was put in the hours would be, Would be taken aback by something like that.

, In terms of the person interviewing this person happens to be my generation. So I was very surprised that she would even consider that to be okay. But again, I also feel like in this market where. There's a seemingly large, [00:06:00] availability of candidates. There's always a shift where, it just feels like anecdotally hiring managers are just not, you know, they're just not putting in the effort.

Jon Beck: , , is it fair to say that COVID for a lot of us?

Resulted in some bad habits on what I what I've sensed from your earlier comments is you're a believer of a hybrid model, which a lot of companies are taking. Yes, nodding it. Okay, so I think there's almost a recalibration and retraining, not just for people that. Join the workforce during COVID and haven't known anything different.

But for a lot of us who got, , accustomed to working from home and quite frankly got a little lazy. I mean, we hear from clients repeatedly when we go see them that very few of, their suppliers, not just staffing suppliers, but their, Suppliers in general don't come to see them anymore. And that to me is such a huge missed opportunity because as wonderful as this is talking on video, there is nothing that [00:07:00] replaces the in person, , dynamic that you get.

You can't read body language the same way you can't. It just, there's a familiarity and comfortability with it. , and I think a lot of us have just gotten lazy and that's where some of the resistance comes from because they think, oh, well, going to the office is going to take work. What does take work?

But that's part of work. 

Kobie Wagener: Yeah, so absolutely. I agree. 100%. I feel like we're almost a little intimidated by the face to face interaction. Like it's it's a tolerance that we build up for face to face interaction, since it is, uh, it's a bigger lift. We do get more out of it.

I think the return in terms of what we get, for social capital, intellectual capital, I think is far greater, but it's more work. It does take a greater deal of discipline. I think we have to constantly remind ourselves if we put in the effort It's not going to be easy. Yeah, but if we put in the effort, we're [00:08:00] definitely going to get the return 

I think one of Steve Jobs favorite stories is how at their new headquarters at Apple, they, they put the bathroom in like, and the way the where was placed was or the restroom was placed so that you were forced to see other people.

And so it really forced people to interact and have the social connections and some of them by chance. And, you know, you would just meet people and so I'm a really big believer of that. Meeting people, starting up a conversation. Well, it's 

Jon Beck: the unexpected and it gets you outside of your comfort zone for sure.

And after that, when you have pre planned meetings, that's really hard to do. Kobi, I know you're very involved, with SHRM certification. You do some training there. Is it fair to say that we are doing a disservice to a lot of our managers because they often get promoted based on performance or results and aren't properly trained in basic management 101, not not just HR management, but just how to manage and [00:09:00] communicate and provide feedback to people.

Is that a fair statement? 

Kobie Wagener: Oh, absolutely. I feel like that investment comes from the top. A really good friend of mine interviewed last week, and she was interviewing with a very senior person, and this person was talking about her organization's culture and how it really is a culture of innovation, but it's also a culture of everyone fending for themselves.

And so they had a dialogue around that and this leader said, well, I, I don't really have the details. That's for you to, figure out. Well, so the reason I'm using that to answer your question is I think it's critical for leadership in any organization to set up resources, training resources, support resources for managers.

Because it's really, it starts with the managers and, you know, managers are often, to your [00:10:00] point, they're, promoted because they distinguish themselves in certain areas, either being very productive and, and being high performers. But that's not, but being a high performer doesn't mean that you're naturally a proficient leader that comes with training and with time and with experience.

So, I absolutely think that that's, uh, I think, and having organizational development, background and training, it's really a critical component. So, two things, the training, but also leadership support. 

Jon Beck: And also exposure, which goes back to our earlier point around socialization. And so much of training happens through osmosis and through watching.

And that really is, to me, the definition is culture. Culture is built with all those individual interactions. Culture is an easy word to say. [00:11:00] It's easy PowerPoint or website, but it takes work and all those. All those interactions that happen between smaller groups and individuals that are going to develop and share what it is that starts from the top.

And if the top isn't emphasizing it or enabling it, it's never going to happen. And it's going to run into very bad places, I think, or people are going to be left behind and not have the skills that they need. It's not fair to them. So I think it's there. Definitely a common thread there for sure. 

Kobie Wagener: I think. You know, the thing that's meant a lot to me with SHRM is that, , it has a volunteering component. And I feel like, you know, the thing with work is I think a lot of us are looking for meaning, but, it's not always, finding meaning at work isn't always a given.

 Being a volunteer gives us a better opportunity to stretch ourselves. And to take risks that we aren't always able able to take a work and it's I feel [00:12:00] like with volunteering.

 So, my recommendation for anyone is to do that volunteer work.

Jon Beck: And volunteering is selfless, and that puts you in a different mindset and gives you a different appreciation as well, which is also harder to do in work.

We all have bills to play and all have ambition, you know, career ambitions, which is why that's so important. I know you're, working on a project right now. Tell us a little bit about, I know it's something that you're excited about. 

Oh, absolutely. 

Kobie Wagener: So, the project, the idea was born at a Club VMSA at the last November, November 2023 Club VMSA event. 

So, I was in one of the breakouts and it struck me that a lot of buyers are trying to figure out whether they should outsource the contingent workforce function to an MSP. Whether they should do it themselves, whether they should, you know, move on from the MSB that they currently have or keep them. And so it put me on [00:13:00] a journey of discovery.

And so I'm working with the University of San Francisco on a research project where. We really unpack the concept of how do you design a good workforce program. So this is nothing, this is not that much to do with running a workforce program, because there's a lot of information.

But it's really designing programs. So how are we thoughtful and strategic about saying, for example, what are the what are the questions we should ask if we are making a decision between outsourcing the function to an MSP or doing it ourselves?

What are the questions we should ask if we decide whether talent acquisition and HR should own contingent workforce programs, or whether it should be procurement, should we have a technology? It doesn't come without cost. Should we use the technology for a really small program?

 Those are some big questions. And then, of course, [00:14:00] I've interviewed probably five people so far for the research. And, unsurprisingly, a lot of people came back and said, well, you have to the 1st thing is you have to figure out what your goals are as an organization. And then you tie that into your next steps.

Kobie Wagener: You have to find out why there is a contingent workforce. , what percentage should our contingent workforce be. How important is the quality of the talent? If it's very transactional, if it's an environment where, let's say we have unskilled labor, perhaps that is less of a focus than an organization that hires highly sophisticated contingent workers with a lot of experience and a lot of skill.

So that is, really fertile grounds for discussion and exploration. And so, it's a little intimidating because organizational design is vast. It's a very traditional endeavor. And so I'm a [00:15:00] little bit, out of my depth here, but, I decided to forge it, even though it's a little intimidating.

Jon Beck: Oh, I disagree. I don't think you're out of your depth because I know, I know that the types of different programs that you've managed. So you have a lot of real world examples and you and I could spend hours on this topic. I'll steal your answer from an earlier question. I think the answer to, to what the right choice for you is, it depends because one size does not fit all.

And what drives me crazy as a supplier, cause we talked to a lot of programs that are clients that are on their way up and trying to make this decision. And too often the, the solutions that they're considering, whether it's MSP or a piece of technology, they're trying to apply a one size fits all mentality, which is doing a total disservice.

, I get it. If you're a multinational. Corporation and need the help of, you know, currency exchange and all the different legislation and, and, , the [00:16:00] entitlements that happened country to country, maybe an MSP you can lean on and get the value from them. But if you're, a couple thousand workforce operating in the United States, you're never going to know your business as well as a third party that comes in to manage it for you.

Never. No way. And that has, that's not a criticism of the MSP. That's a fact. And I just think so many companies are making those decisions without the criteria that you just. provided to us, like you have to go through that decision making tree and start with the end goal in mind. And, there isn't a lot of, there aren't a lot of places to go to get those answers, other than to the, the, the vendors themselves.

So I'll be really interested to see what your results show there. And it could be a really helpful tool for a lot of protective buyers. Part and parcel of that. Question and I want to spend a little time on this as well. Would you agree that one of the major areas of exposure for companies right now is the miscategorization of contingent labor [00:17:00] itself?

Kobie Wagener: Oh, absolutely. With the legislation, especially in the state of California, leaning towards being more compliant, W2 versus 1099.

I feel like there is exposure. Not having, any empirical data, not having access to any empirical data, but just talking to my peers, a peer who are going into new programs, , It's I say, it's one of the common denominators that companies are still saying, Oh, let's just bring them on a stay 99 and worry about it later.

 I feel like there are, there's more exposure. I also just talking to some vendors, I also feel like there is this. This temptation and propensity to, use technology to, to screen independent contractors. And I don't think some of them are not sophisticated enough to catch some of the nuances and those are [00:18:00] some big risks to take.

Jon Beck: You know this, if you look at the state of California, their criteria for 1099 versus W2, there's like, there's a 10 point bullet point checklist that all have tons and tons of gray area within it. So to automate that process, that's a risky proposition, I 

Kobie Wagener: think.

Yeah, it is. And there are organizations who simply, I think, perhaps don't have the experience to look at these, automation tools and say, Hey, this is risky, or maybe they don't have access to Employment Council. I think to answer your question, I do feel like there's exposure there.

Jon Beck: We could spend a lot more time on this. I want to move to a little bit of a speed round here for our audience gets to know you a little better. Kobe, what's, what's your one pet peeve specific to this industry?

What thing really just drives you nuts? 

Kobie Wagener: [00:19:00] Okay. You know, I feel like, and I don't think that it's a pet peeve that's unique to our industry, but I feel like on social media, there's a lot of. Quantification and there's a lot of opinions. I feel like we can do a little better with putting some thought before something is posted.

 I'd say the other one is and I'm saying this very cautiously. You know, I was on the provider side for a really long time, and I still feel like, the buyer side is hesitant to, hire from the buyer side for whatever reason.

Why 

Jon Beck: do you think that is? 

Kobie Wagener: Well,, I think in the defense of, of, of buyers, I feel like on the provider side, there's such a wide variety of, the skill sets going to be pretty much the same, but [00:20:00] the approach to work is, is there's a wide variety.

 On the provider side, there's a lot of. Order taking and then there's a there's a portion of individuals that are just really thoughtful and deliberate and very intellectual. Hiring managers maybe are a little. Nervous about it because they don't want to get they don't want to hire an order taker.

Jon Beck: I think you're right. And I'm a supplier, so I'll speak on behalf of other suppliers. I think we've done this to ourselves. We don't take the time to really think about.

And I'm generalizing here to think about what we're really good at and where we can add value, and understand even before a conversation happens, where we think we might be able to add value. And I think a lot of people in this industry are order takers. It's, there's a transactional nature to our business.

 And I guess it depends on the types of [00:21:00] jobs and projects that we're all working on, but, there's certainly opportunity to understand. The client better to be the subject matter expert and where you do focus. , and I remind my team of this all the time, we want to be as good at saying no, as we are at saying yes.

And what I mean by that is to, uh, to, to recognize areas where we won't set ourselves up or our partner up for success. And it's hard to do, but, , I don't disagree with you. , 

Kobie Wagener: the other thing, John is. Is clients aren't always great at articulating what they're going through, and they're often very protective of information.

So, so the providers. Are often operating in the dark, which does actually contribute to to having to the order taking mentality, which is okay. I'm just going to do what you say. And and then, you know, that becomes a habit. And then in the defense of the providers is that there's a tremendous [00:22:00] pressure to to perform and to produce.

That breeds some habits of just saying, hey, let's just get this done. Let's not spend a ton of time overthinking this. So, I think it goes to the shared responsibility that everyone has to do some thinking and and everyone has to put in some effort to become better communicators.

Jon Beck: I agree with you, but I would, I would certainly challenge my team. Why haven't we asked the question and not just a question, but the thoughtful question, the right way, you know, you've been on however many thousands of intake calls where suppliers show up and they have nothing. Of really a relevance.

There's, you know, what's the rate? I mean, like, they haven't taken the time to read the job description, understand what the company does like to look at the hiring. Like, they're just like, there's no preparation. So I think, there's room for improvement. Kobe, last question for you. And everyone who comes on the show gets this question.

It's the way [00:23:00] back machine question, which is. If I could take you back to the point in time when you first started your career in staffing and recruiting and human resources with all the experience that you have sitting here today, what one piece of advice would you give Kobe based on what you know today?

Kobie Wagener: It might sound right, but I'd say it's being more courageous and, taking more risks. I think it's tempting to put off ambitious goals because we seem to think that we're not experts. And we don't have all the answers. It's important to take on a new challenge when you have just enough experience, knowledge to be dangerous.

You don't have to know everything. In fact, it's better to not know everything because it does make us more cautious and more risk averse. And so [00:24:00] I'm not saying go out there and, , just break everything in your path to become successful. But I think it's really important to Figure out what your goals are and to not worry so much about whether you have all the answers and then I'd say surround yourself with really good people.

I think that one doesn't come as a surprise. A lot of people will say the same thing, surround yourself with people that are gonna call you on your shit. And, but also say, Hey, that, that, that actually might work. Let's. Put together a plan, let's execute. 

Jon Beck: There's a consistent theme in this episode.

 And it's about getting out of your comfort zone. Going back into the office. Meeting people that you wouldn't have expected to meet. Managers being challenged to become better managers. , doing things that are more courageous without having all the answers. It's, there's that, that great [00:25:00] meme Venn diagram that shows you your comfort zone and then outside of it where the magic happens.

. But that's, that's exactly what it is that you're talking about. And I think, uh, I, I certainly try to do that. When I talk to new graduates coming to the workforce to say, don't underestimate what your capabilities are. Don't be reckless and try to break things.

But, especially if you've come from a good upbringing and, you know, have an education and have good work ethic and desire, you're, you're ahead of the game. , Compared to, to most. So I think that's, that's great advice. 

Kobe, thank you for making the time.

If our listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do so? 

Kobie Wagener: They can ping me on LinkedIn. Either send an invite and then just say, Hey, I listened to, I listened to John's podcast. The reason I say that is I get pinged a lot, even though I'm not with Bloom Energy anymore. I get pinged a lot by, by people and I get some junkie stuff. And so maybe whoever, [00:26:00] and, and by the way, our listeners love to hear from you.

 But just, set the stage by saying, I was listening to John, John's hiring you, podcast. 

Jon Beck: Excellent. And no junkie stuff, Kobe. Thanks again for coming on the show. , we'll definitely have you on in the future to compare notes for our listeners. Thanks for tuning in, continue to stay hungry, stay positive, stay safe, stay curious, and we will see you next time on hiring you.

Thanks again, Kobe. Thanks, John. 

Kobie Wagener: Really appreciate it.