#128 - Mizuno Golf: Chris Voshall (Marketing Manager)

Chris Voshall, Mizuno product engineer and marketing manager

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:00

Today we play golf.

Speaker 2 0:02

Let me show you how we do it in the pros.

Speaker 3 0:05

Yeah . Welcome to Behind the Golf Brand podcast. I never missed with the Seven Iron , a conversation with some of the most interesting innovators and entrepreneurs behind the biggest names in golf. My

Speaker 4 0:16

Friends were the golf clubs. I lived on the golf course, I lived on the driving range

Speaker 3 0:19

From Pro Talk . You should learn something from each and every single round. You play to fun from on and off the green.

Speaker 5 0:25

Why would you play golf if you don't play it for money?

Speaker 3 0:27

Just let me put the ball in a hole. This is Behind the Golf Brand podcast with Paul Libert tore .

Speaker 6 0:34

What's up guys? Welcome to the fourth season of Behind the Golf Brand podcast. Today I have my good friend Chris Vhel from Mno . I'm super excited to having him on the show. He's literally the nicest person I've met in golf and that's the truth. And we're gonna talk all about mood, what's going on Mno , his storied career and kind of what's going on. It's welcome to the show.

Speaker 7 0:54

I appreciate it , Paul . This'll be a fun time. I'm looking forward to chatting

Speaker 6 0:58

Like BS Me for last, last half hour, so I was like ,

Speaker 7 1:01

Be the show . I hope I have more to say. Right.

Speaker 6 1:03

And that's it. And cut. I should like messed up your last name. <laugh>

Speaker 7 1:07

<laugh> .

Speaker 6 1:08

So where you be the first, where are you located at? So

Where are you located?

Speaker 7 1:11

I am, Mizuno's office is in Norcross, Georgia, which is, I'd say from like the heart of downtown Atlanta. It's like 30 minutes north. Um, I, I grew up in that area. I grew up in northern Atlanta, kind of left for a couple years to go to school and then have been back for a number. So yeah, we're one of the few golf companies that is not over on the West Coast, but we like it over here. It's kind of

Speaker 6 1:31

Cool that you guys are in Atlanta. Like you wouldn't think that, you know, it's like how p you know, PS in Arizona it's like everyone's either, well , everyone's in California feels like, you know.

Speaker 7 1:39

Right. What's an interesting thing? 'cause it's like, it was for the longest time it was Mno Rikon and Bridgestone, like the three Japanese companies were all in Atlanta, which seems a little bit odd, is like just that much farther from Japan. But for some reason, like all the Japanese companies kind of located here, I know Stron has since moved its headquarters. Good

Speaker 6 1:59

Taxes probably or something. You probably got some kind of

Speaker 7 2:00

Deal. I think that's exactly what it is. The weather's not as not as nice as, as San Diego or Carlsbad or, or Phoenix or anything. But we don't mind it here. And land's a little bit more affordable for me, so I'll

Speaker 6 2:11

Take it. Yeah, seriously. Could you imagine, I have a buddy of mine who's like trying to get a job at a another company, like a tailor made and Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> . Like , he, he's like, yeah, I gotta move to Carlsbad. I'm like, I'm a fat dude. I'm like, you can't afford good luck that salary. Like right.

Speaker 7 2:25

<laugh> ,

Speaker 6 2:26

You know ? I know. He , he's like, tell me gonna pay. I'm like , there's no way you can live there . That salary. Like you might get a nice one bedroom apartment like a hundred miles away. Right .

Speaker 7 2:34

You know, it's amazing. Like, I get it. If you're born there and that's what you're used to, like, that's what prices are. I, I get it. Why you'd stay there a hundred percent. But to move to California is like a scary proposition, especially from the south. Like, everything here is so cheap. <laugh>

Speaker 6 2:49

Really? Oh , Arizona kind of turning into like California light, you know, like in the last I believe that, I mean, you know, it's like they can buy a mega mansion here, sell their out there , buy a pretty nice house here, you know. But are you like a professional golfer or like, how'd you get into golf?

Speaker 7 3:05

No, so I mean, my intro to golf was my dad , uh, he was a golfer. He played in college. He played at what's now VCU , uh, up in Virginia. So he grew up in that area. My whole family's from the, the Southern Virginia area. And um , it's kind of funny because I've got two older sisters and younger sister. I'm the only son of three of four kids. And it's like, as soon as the sun came, my dad's like, great. I got a golfer now. So it was like we were dialed in for golf. Yes . So from the get go . So that was really my introduction. And it's cool 'cause my dad was always a kind of a golf gearhead. I remember so distinctly, like as, as a kid, our basement was full of dad's golf clubs. Like he had a ton of clubs. And then our Saturday morning ritual as we would go get hot cakes at McDonald's and then go over to the golf warehouse and like look at clubs, like that was kind of what we did. That's , that was our thing . So , so that was really my introduction to golf and it's just been a passion of mine ever since I started when I was like 10 . Well , I

Speaker 6 4:05

Bet your dad loved it when you got the job at Mno

Speaker 7 4:07

<laugh> . Oh my gosh. And my , he really did. It was one of those things . So he was a guy who, he worked in the, in the check printing industry for the longest. Like literally from outta college until he retired. And it was always, I mean, he was great. He was very successful in the industry, but it was never like a passion. A passion , it was never a fun thing. Yeah. So the second I told him it was like, when I graduated from college, I was looking at different places. I had a job offer over here, but I was waiting to hear from the club company and I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa . I'm not taking this yet. I want to hear this. And he was a little bit like, oh, well, you know, you got a job here, you should do that. And then the second, like, Mizzou , what

Speaker 6 4:45

Was the job? What was the job? I'm trying to

Speaker 7 4:46

Remember exactly what it was. Oh man.

Speaker 6 4:50

Something like boring. You're like,

Speaker 7 4:52

It would've it would've been a boring job. It would've, it would not have been one that I like, it would've probably

Speaker 6 4:56

Paid Well ,

Speaker 7 4:57

Talking about, I promise you that <laugh>.

Speaker 6 5:00

Yeah . Now like , oh, my son works at Dairy Queen or whatever. I don't really know <laugh>,

Speaker 7 5:04

I , I do have a very, a kind of a funny story . Like along those lines of like, when you graduate or like when you're first in the job, when the golf industry, like you can't wait to tell everybody. Like anyone who talk to, guess what I do? I design golf clubs. Like I do that. Well , and then, so this was like in the early mid two thousands when like poker was so massive, like bar poker and all that stuff . So I, my, my routine was Monday night I would go to this place and play poker. Tuesday night I would go to this place and play poker and just like, you know, you'd eat it , eat dinner, hang out, do whatever, talk to the people, get to be friends with everybody. And I remember like the , one of the first times I said, oh yeah, you know, I designed golf clubs for Meno and the the then the person just would not leave me alone like for the rest of the night. And the next week the person just bugged the crap outta me. Like all he wanted to do was talk about golf and all I wanna do is not, not talk about

Speaker 6 5:53

Golf, not about golf . You wanna get away from it for

Speaker 7 5:54

An hour . And so it was like my evolution with , with the company and like working there is I used to tell people I work at design golf clubs. Then I said, I worked in the sporting good industry and then I said, I worked at Sports Authority ,

Speaker 6 6:04

I work at Shield . I just

Speaker 7 6:06

<laugh> I just started to say , yeah, I work at a , at a at a retail shop. And then people would stop asking me questions. So <laugh> ,

Speaker 6 6:11

They're gonna ask you even more like, okay , get a discount. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 7 6:14

<laugh> ,

Speaker 6 6:15

<laugh> .

Speaker 7 6:16

So it was kind

Speaker 6 6:17

Of fun . So , so you grew up, did you play like high school golf and all that too and

Did you played golf at High School?

Speaker 7 6:20

Everything? I did. So I went to a really small high school. Uh, it's gotten bigger now, but it's called Wesleyan up up on the north side of Atlanta. It's amazing. It's literally like a par four away from Mao's office, which is kind of crazy that like, I'm still right here. But it was , um, it was a middle school and lower school that was kind of expanding up. So I was the second graduating class, like

Speaker 6 6:42

Brew around there and stuff.

Speaker 7 6:43

Yeah. So it , it was a tiny school. I was in a class of only 26 graduating, which was crazy.

Speaker 6 6:49

One 500th of my class. <laugh> .

Speaker 7 6:51

The cool thing about that though is like the school was forming so you could kind of start things. So myself and a couple other guys, like put the golf team together. Mm . So that was kind of one of the cool things was, yeah, I played golf all through, all through high school, kind of was the inaugural, inaugural golf team. Uh, and then as, as I got older, you know, we got some freshmen behind us and sophomores behind us that were, that got good. Like we were trash early on, but we, we got to be pretty decent. You

Speaker 6 7:18

From golf though , so that's okay.

Speaker 7 7:19

Yeah. And Wesleyan is now spitting out some really, really good players, which is neat. But yeah, I played golf in high school and then went to college. Um, was not on the team there.

Speaker 6 7:28

Where'd you go to college?

Speaker 7 7:29

I went to Vanderbilt up in Nashville.

Speaker 6 7:31

I remember that.

Speaker 7 7:32

So yeah, there's , then you got my little , got my little star right there. So <laugh> , I was , uh, I was the team at the time. Uh, sneer was on the team. So I'm same age as Brant . Really good player. But then be behind that. There were a couple of decent players and there were a couple spots where I was like, Hey, I'm as good as that guy. I know I wasn't, but I would tell the coach like, Hey, I need a spot at this. And he never really gave me too much of a ti the time of day. But I played, I played golf all through college. Like that was my getaway, that was my activity. I'd go do connected with some really good friends, like friends to this day just around playing golf in college. And then that's where I was an engineer. So graduating, I was like, how can I pair up the passion for loving to play and engineering? So what kinda

Speaker 6 8:16

Engineering degree do you have?

Speaker 7 8:17

So it's interesting , I started as an electrical engineer , um, which , which is like the hardest,

Speaker 6 8:22

Right?

Speaker 7 8:23

Well, and that was it. I was, I was valedictorian in my class, which like sounds impressive until I say it was 26 kids. Like it wasn't as impressive. I

Speaker 6 8:31

Was a valedictorian.

Speaker 7 8:32

Well, I went in and I was like, I want the hardest thing I can find. And that was electrical engineering. And then I go to Vanderbilt and I'm literally, I remember one day like talking to my hall mates and we were on a hall and I think there were 40 of us on that hall and there were 26 valedictorians. And I was like, I thought I was smart. And then I like got around these people, I'm like, I'm an idiot. Like I don't know anything. So electrical engineering didn't last that long .

Speaker 6 8:56

How long was that? Like a semester when you started like crappy ? Uh ,

Speaker 7 8:58

I , I made it two years in electrical. Two years.

Speaker 6 9:01

That's a long time, dude. That's the hardest, that's the hardest part, isn't it? The first two years. That's what I heard

Speaker 7 9:06

Probably. But I guess I'm just soft and I gave up like <laugh> .

Speaker 6 9:09

That's a good thing. I mean, you'd be like making like wafers or diets now or something. Who

Speaker 7 9:14

Knows . Totally. So, but I swapped, I swapped over mechanical. I ended up gradu , I did engineering science with like a focus on materials and stuff. So I really got into like CAD courses and understanding like how to do 3D design and understanding materials

Speaker 6 9:29

Now , the early two thousands too , when like that was starting to really take off. Like AutoCAD I remember that one . That's

Speaker 7 9:35

Right.

Speaker 6 9:36

Like nobody had had that

Speaker 7 9:37

Like , and that was cool. Like it was neat that that was a program that was offered. Like I , 'cause I did, I took a bunch of like AutoCAD courses at the time, which it's a little bit different than like, it didn't translate directly to the CAD program that we used at mao , but you have the basic, like

Speaker 6 9:52

Yeah . You understand

Speaker 7 9:53

How to think

Speaker 6 9:54

You , you understand . Yeah . Yeah. Just like a different button does the same job.

The intro to Mizuno

Speaker 7 9:57

Right , exactly. So yeah, that was kind of my intro. And then I, I , I think my actual like intro to Mno was kind of funny. Where it was, this was Mao , well we're talking early two thousands, like monster.com was the thing. Like that's where you looked for jobs. I think I did that And monster.com had a posting for a golf club engineer at Mno and you kind of go

Speaker 6 10:19

Through the back in , back in Atlanta. You're like, what <laugh> ? Yeah.

Speaker 7 10:22

But you go through the job description, it like, it requires a master's in this 10 years experience in this blah, blah, blah. So I, and like all of these things that I don't even, I'm

Speaker 6 10:31

Not even close , I

Speaker 7 10:31

Close to , yeah . I'm a kid who knows a little bit of AutoCAD who has a basement full of golf clubs at mom and dad's house. Like that's the extent of my hey , What I bring to the table. So you play golf and I play golf, but I , so I put in an application anyway, I sent in a resume and like a month went by and then I got a response from a guy named MAs the guy . And the Gean is the Japanese engineer who basically established Meno USA's R and D department. So we'd always had one in Osaka, Japan. And he said, you know, because the US market is so big, we need to expand and become more global, not just Japanese. So he reached out to me and was like, dude, like you are not qualified for what you put in for, but we're opening up a research and development center with like a robotic golfer and building like a center there. Would you be interested in interviewing for a position there? So that was really my footage ,

Speaker 6 11:26

What I was Would you say held to the Yes <laugh> .

Speaker 7 11:28

Oh , absolutely. So yeah, so like my first couple of years on the job was literally I would walk into a golf store, buy everything. Like I want a set of those set of those set of those set of buy 'em, take 'em back to the office, you get the data , hit 'em , test 'em , cut 'em up, learn all about 'em , and just do testing. So that was really my introduction into the golf world was the testing engineer position. But that's working <crosstalk> , he was

Speaker 6 11:50

Like literally the coolest job, honestly, I think, you know

Speaker 7 11:52

What I mean ? It was awesome. Yeah. And it's the perfect job to really get you to appreciate and understand like the nuances of design as to why one little bit of CG movement in this direction does this to a player or does this to a robot. So it kind of teaches you it's a great , um, it's a great foundation to learn club engineering.

Speaker 6 12:13

So then how long were you in the r and d?

Speaker 7 12:16

So I did that , uh, I was in that role. I started in oh four in that role. And I did that until I designed my first, the first thing I designed was a fitting tool. Uh, and that was in oh seven. And then in oh eight was the first time I designed some wedges and a putter and a couple sets of irons. Like it started from there. So from 2008 till really 2018 , yeah, I started doing like all hardcore engineering, like designing a lot of our product. So I was really heavily focused on the forged irons. I did the majority of like the Mao Pro , uh, or MP line at the time. Remember that I say I did, it's , it's not me. There's a team with Oh yeah .

Speaker 6 12:54

But that you focus

Speaker 7 12:55

On . But yeah, that was my focus and myself. And it's what's one of the cool things about Mao is like, you know, we've got such a history of what you do in irons and we're so well known for irons that, you know, there's no chance they'd let just some random kid off the street design an iron that gets the Meno name on it. So the way it kind of worked is you would have an engineer in the us an engineer in Japan, and the two of you would work kind of hand in hand on a project. So it was myself and a guy named Kazu Do . And Kazu was awesome. He taught me so much and he and I would work on projects. And another cool thing is like, because we're in Atlanta and they're in Japan, like it's a 12 hour to 13 hour difference depending on whether we're on daylight savings or not. But basically like I could work on a project all day and then he picks up dir as soon as I sign off, he picks up right where I left off and goes from there. So it's like the, the data and the project is constantly, it never

Speaker 6 13:48

Ended . Right. It was like , okay , I'm gonna go on now . It's like, you're going to bed, he's waking up. So it's

Speaker 7 13:52

Almost like <crosstalk> . Exactly. Right. So it was really cool and he and I designed a lot of clubs that have like got some really cool history behind them . So I did that until 2008, sorry, 2018. And in 1819, somewhere in there, my role kind of shifted a little bit to where I'm now working with the RD team directing a little bit of the product of where we need to go and what we need to develop. So still talking to the engineers, looking at the shapes, doing hit tests and stuff, but a little bit more of a marketing and sales and business spin to it. So kind of understanding the market. That's

Speaker 6 14:26

Freaking cool. <laugh> . So it was like , you literally went , it was like, because you went from engineering, it's like, it's like you walk the , the entry level job you got there, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> is like, it kind of gives you the foundation of everything you're going forward because they're letting you literally start from scratch and be like, this is how you really do it. Right. Right . And then all the r and d figuring it out, understanding technology and how people are making their stuff and why their stuff stuff works and why, you know, whatever. And then, and then to be able to like go from there to actually, you know, being part of a team to build what you guys are building because you

Speaker 7 14:59

Know Yeah. That that's what's so cool about Mao is like, it really was almost like an apprenticeship to learn your way up to up to an engineer. And you know, we've, we've of course we've brought in engineers from other companies before and then we've grown 'em from the ground up as well. And to me, like the ones they truly get it and understand what we're doing are the ones that have kind of started at the bottom and worked their way up. So like a lot of the engineers that have come from other places that don't last that long to be honest, just because they're used to doing it a different way. And really there's not, there's not like the heritage that I feel like is almost ingrained in me where I've been with the company now for like, for 20 years. Your whole career. Yeah. Yeah. My whole career.

Speaker 6 15:39

But it's like, you're loyal too because you're like part of a , you're part of it like, right. It's not like, oh, I came in and I made a product and then I'm gonna , you know, I'm a I'm a mercenary, I'm gonna go somewhere else and design something. It's like

Speaker 7 15:51

Exactly

Speaker 6 15:51

Right. It's like I know what I took to make that, you know? Yeah.

Speaker 7 15:54

And, and to me that speaks a lot to what like Meno is. We're , I mean, it it, you go deep down to it, there's a Meno family. Like we're part of the Meno line. It's not just we slapped a name on somebody who made a product. Like it all goes back to the history of Meno is there was a Riachi Meno who, he was a big baseball player who developed like COR testing for baseballs back in the early 19 hundreds. Like how hot is a baseball? So that, that's kind of the origin of us. So he developed a test like in his sporting goods store in Osaka, Japan, where if you dropped a baseball from this high, it could only bounce back to this high. Which essentially is, you know, like a rudimentary version of what a golf COR spring test is now. So it's like, it , it all goes back to like the engineering and the science and the , the family too because, you know, riachi passed on to the next Mao , to the next Mao and they're still the Mao family. So that's what's the cool thing is so many people have been here so long. Like I'm friends with the Mao , it was like we we to sort of put our his name on something we do, he has to trust you a lot. And there's a lot of history that goes behind that. So I , it's

Speaker 6 17:01

Funny . Yeah . Right , because like if you're Yeah, exactly. Like you , there's a trust there. Like they know your , your best interest is in the , is for the, is for the company, right? Absolutely . It's not like Absolutely . It's not for you. Right. Or

Speaker 7 17:14

Your Right . Exactly. Ego or whatever it might be. And that's where you look at some other companies and they'll be like, oh well the wedges are by this guy. This the putters are by this guy. And like you put a name to. So no Mao product has any name other than Mao on it. And that's not to say there's not a wedge guy and a putter guy and a wood guy or whatever. They're very much is, but we're all overarching like building <crosstalk> .

Speaker 6 17:36

They're all named Chris Haw . Kidding .

Speaker 7 17:38

<laugh> . Right? I don't wanna , I don't want a voch. She wedge. There's already another <crosstalk>

Speaker 6 17:41

Voch. She wedge would , you could probably do that. That'd be hilarious dude. <laugh> .

Speaker 7 17:46

And then it looked like a knockoff boey or something. Be like this

Speaker 6 17:49

Guy <laugh> , we should like grind off the Vokey part and put Bo shell on it. <laugh> actually don't do that. But no, don't do that. Do have one of your , one of your, one of your wedges <laugh>. That's freaking cool. Like, I knew 'cause it's like hard 'cause Chris has had so many different roles at the company that it's like, when I was telling my wife today, I was like, oh yeah, I'm talking to my friend Chris, you know, from <inaudible> . She's like , what does he do? And I was like, well it's hard to explain like <laugh> because I know he does now, but I know his history so it's like I can't say what he, I don't know all of the in between , right? Like , I dunno know how you got from A to B 'cause right ? Z it's like, 'cause not, they're completely different, you know? So now it's like you're , one

Speaker 7 18:23

Of the things I love the most about, like the fact that so many people at Mizuno have such a tenure here is it's like, you know , I'm on the product and marketing side, but I'm an engineer, like to say a marketer, the main marketing guy is an engineer is pretty rare. It

Speaker 6 18:39

Never, that never happens, right? Because now it never happens. Never happens, never, never. Or even have a, a brain that could do both of those jobs, right? Because it's like you're an engineer brain or you're a marketing person, you know , it's like , not

Speaker 7 18:50

<crosstalk> . Maybe I'm just a bad engineer, I don't know. But it ,

Speaker 6 18:53

Well you did fail out of like double E . So I mean yeah , I

Speaker 7 18:56

Quit that

Speaker 6 18:57

Disrespect . I'm just kidding. <laugh> .

Speaker 7 18:59

But the cool thing is it allows us to, when we're telling a marketing story, there's an engineering spin to it always. So, which to me comes off as way more authentic. Well , not . You've

Speaker 6 19:10

Never seen, right ? I mean you go , oh , it's the blah blah blah , blah , blah . And you're like, what the, what , what do those words even mean? Right, exactly. And you're like, I know exactly what that means. And that makes sense. Like that sentence. Yeah .

Speaker 7 19:20

I laugh at a lot of the marketing campaigns out there and how everyone just shouts longer, faster, blah, blah, blah. 10

Speaker 6 19:26

K, 10 K, 10 k.

Speaker 7 19:27

Yeah. And , and from my side, like if you listen to what Meno , the stories we tell Yeah . It's a lot of the, the art and the science combined. And we will talk about materials. Like when you look at a Meno club, when you look at the Zel of the irons, it'll say Mali , a 41, 35 M or 10 25. Oh wow .

Speaker 6 19:46

E pure sweat .

Speaker 7 19:46

Yeah . Like , like literally we put the, we put the science right at the forefront. It's like, here's the material, here's why this is different. Here's why the grain flow forging process is different. So our stories are a lot different. They're based around manufacturing, engineering, productivity, stuff like that. As opposed <crosstalk> .

Speaker 6 20:04

I feel like that's a really big disconnect in, I mean, you've been this way longer than I have, but like in the golf industry, like the engineers don't communicate or there's no way, it's a hard way for the engineers to communicate with the marketing team because like Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> , you talk to an engineer and I've , I've talked to a lot of 'em like not on the show or just people I know other brands and they're like so excited and you talk to 'em, they know exactly what they're talking about and they explain why it works and you're like, oh, I understand that, that's cool. And then, but that's not what's pr , that's not what's sent out to the public. You know what I mean? Right . It's like totally, new word that makes no sense. That sounds cool. And we'll put some like, you know, whatever.

Speaker 7 20:39

No, you're, you're exactly right. And that's where I, I I hope people recognize they don't see that from Mao . Oh , don't like what , what you see from us is a, it's a what and a why. Like the what is, here's what we did to it. Here's the material, here's the process. And the why is because it delivers that, you know, from everybody else. You get a ton of just loud, bold claims and trust us. There's something in here making something magical happen as opposed to kind of explaining what we're doing.

Speaker 6 21:06

That's always been like the hard part I think in golf, right? It's like always it's all about the pizazz and then it's like, mm-hmm , <affirmative> , well was last year's pizazz is not this year's pizazz , but why is this better than last year? You know? Right. Oh , because you put another screw in it or you put another weight on it. <laugh> .

Speaker 7 21:18

Right .

Speaker 6 21:19

It's like, I don't know . I think I , I think it's why golfers distrust the industry, right? They know it's black . Absolutely. They know it. Everybody knows it. They're like, oh, apple's gonna go farther. You know, it's like, does it now ?

Speaker 7 21:30

Well what's funny is it's like almost like the easiest way to tell that a company did not change much is if they made all the colors and names way different. It's like, well we gotta come up with something to tell why this one's new and oh we'll change this name to that and it was green and now it's blue. Like they'll literally change something. So you're like, oh, that has to be new and different when in actuality it's a lot of like, you know , slow progressive movements Where on our side, did

Speaker 6 21:56

You see that with irons though? Like in the irons and wedge line a lot? Or? I know mainly you definitely see in drivers for hundred percent , for Right, for sure. Balls, I mean, mm , a little bit, but not really. I mean that's , yeah,

Speaker 7 22:07

People , uh, the claims and balls aren't as bold, but like on the iron side, yeah . There are some companies who are very , um, I'd call it not evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary, where the next one is an evolution on the last one. And I think you see a lot of that from Mizuno where we'll evolve a , a family and we'll evolve it to get better and better and better and better. And then you'll see that like, you know, I'll say for the most part, Titleist is very true to that. Ping's typically very true to that. Taylor made has some lines that are true to that and other lines that aren't necessarily true to that. Like the P series versus like the one that matches the driver, whether that be the stealth line or the qi line. Callaway kind of the , the , the Apex line is a little bit more evolutionary where they're rogue or paradigm line, they kind of try to tell bolder claims and stuff like that. So it, it's interesting how you can look at different families and different companies speak in way different terms, but like for us, you look at like the evolution of JPX . We've had our JPX line going back for almost forever 15 years and it started with 800, 8 25, 8 50, whatever . Like there have been subtle changes within it, but

Speaker 6 23:15

You can explain what that is. Like, oh, what do you change series , oh, we did this, this, and this, this and this . Okay . Right . Okay . Not like, oh , we calling it the new whatever line. It's like, right . Just another iteration of that. And

Speaker 7 23:26

To me , the

Speaker 6 23:27

Hard work, right? When they update cars , it's like, it's the same car. We just did something different.

Speaker 7 23:30

And it , to me, that's all about like being trustworthy. You know, when you read about like, you know, customer retention and stuff like that. I think Mao and I , I think Mao and Ping are the two that are known as having like the highest customer retention. 'cause it's like, I trust what I'm getting. So by instead

Speaker 6 23:47

Of lifetime , like Lifetime , like my dad still plays Ping. I mean, right ? I mean guys , once you get someone in there , but he had like ping red eyed twos , you know what I mean? I remember as a kid and like, you know, he buys clothes for 20 years. So it's like right. It's ,

Speaker 7 24:00

And I think that comes from being evolutionary and saying, yes, we're making jumps every single time we're making improvements, but what you knew and what you liked about the last one is still there. Like, we're not just rein trying to reinvent the wheel every single time.

Speaker 6 24:14

You like the freaking , uh, golf whisperer guy like <laugh> . You probably know, like, I mean honestly, if anybody know, you probably know about every brand and every iteration of every club and what the little thing was like, oh, I know that , that whatever, you know, that slogan is. You know, whatever that was <laugh> , they , that was actually the bop bop bop bop bop club when they just add another weight on it or they painted it red or

Speaker 7 24:38

What , uh, one of the things I love to do is, like you said ,

Speaker 6 24:41

Like I'm a blogger <laugh>,

Speaker 7 24:44

I , I thought about that one time. I actually talked to a website one time about being something like that and I, I decided it wasn't a good idea. Just <laugh>?

Speaker 6 24:52

No, because it got leaked . It would just be bad for like, it would

Speaker 7 24:55

Be bad

Speaker 6 24:55

If you're like, yeah, they're like , oh, because he's zu , that's why he's talking like that, you know, <laugh> . It's like,

Speaker 7 25:00

But , but I love looking at the new stuff coming out, reading the claims and understanding how they're claiming they did something and then try to understand, oh well maybe there's some merit to that or Yeah, that sounds like they're just pull grasping at straws, like looking for something to talk about. So you can definitely like the more , the more knowledge, you know, and the more club engineering knowledge, you know, it's easy to say, oh well they just did this by doing that. Like, you know, to me, like the 10 K discussion is a really interesting discussion because there's very positives of a 10 KMOI. But there's also some very negatives to a 10 KMOI and it's like, we'll just shout about the positives and ignore all these and make , you know, it's, it's there . There's give and take in everything in club engineering. And it's all about understanding that and understanding fitting. That's

Why it wasnt the 10k

Speaker 6 25:46

Crazy. See , like that's the thing, they'll say like, why 10 K is so great right now, but like no one talks about what the negative side of 10 K, right? And probably most people are not smart enough to even understand there's a negative side to it unless they're in that world and they go, oh look, you know, based on the data, right? That's why we're not doing it because of this. You know what I mean? Yeah. But not being in a defensive position either. Like if Meno came out the new driver this year and they're like, well why wasn't it 10 K? Or it's like, you don't wanna have that conversation because it's like,

Speaker 7 26:13

Well it's funny, I don't mind that conversation because I can tell you like on our new, we have an St Max driver that's out right now. That's our super high MOI, it's not 10 K, it's like mid nines, but that's way higher than we've ever been. But it could have been 10 K. But we chose to move a certain amount of weight from the very back to the front to make sure that the club face closed a little bit easier to make sure the spin rates didn't get quite as high. So it's like, it's understanding what you're trying to do. If , if it's all about the story, like it's easy to kind of push one direction, kind of ignore the golfing aspect of it and only focus on the marketing or the

Speaker 6 26:50

Player. Right, or the player . Yeah , exactly . Because they just see big 10 K letters everywhere and they go, oh , that's what I need. You know, that's the new thing this year. And they , if enough brands say 10 K, that must be the, it must

Speaker 7 27:01

Be great. Must be

Speaker 6 27:02

The new technology, you know? Right. And it might be like, and you can

Speaker 7 27:05

All , you can even go back to like when the USGA and RNA passed the rule of like, a driver can only be this big and they literally like drew out a square that it could fit in. So what happened the next year, every driver was a fricking square. Like it literally fit in that because it's , oh , it's within the rules. So that is designing product towards a marketing spin versus what did all those square drivers do? They spun really high. They sounded terrible. They went short, like, 'cause to get there you had to have flat surfaces, you had to have a really deep center of gravity. You had all of these like gives get the take of the high of the square driver . So yeah, to me, like that's why I love from the marketing side, like I'm on the marketing side, but also a foot in the product where I can say, here's the story we need to tell and here's why. Like, you can't go this extreme on the marketing side. Like, because the product has to do this.

Speaker 6 27:58

Yeah. If it doesn't deliver then it's not what's what's the point? Right,

Speaker 7 28:02

Exactly.

Speaker 6 28:03

Like back it up with the data or back it up with a good product, which you guys definitely do. I mean my , I got , the first time I ever talked , I told you like my favorite wedges you ever did was those blue wedges, those

Speaker 7 28:13

Wedges. Oh yeah. Dude , you want a funny story about that? Yeah, I

Speaker 6 28:17

Do.

Wedges

Speaker 7 28:17

<laugh> , I remember, so this was in our first blue wedge was the S 18 wedge, which S 18 came out in 2018. I like , that's how creative we are in our naming. So it was literally, I remember sitting in a meeting, this was in Osaka, Japan at the Mizuno headquarters we had done , uh, like back in the day we did , we had a wedge called the raw haze where it was like an oil can finish. We'd had a black onyx or a black ox wedge. We'd had some uh , you know, like some grayish black nickel and chrome and we would always do a light in the dark. That was kind of the norm. And I remember presenting in a meeting, I was like, why don't we do one in blue? Like just for something different. And I essentially got like, I don't wanna say laughed outta the room, but everyone was like, okay, next, like next topic, next

Speaker 6 29:01

Idea. Yeah .

Speaker 7 29:02

So, so we did not, and that was for the wedge before S 18. So then fast forward six months later and in the vokey kind of tour workshop, they did like a limited drop of like a kind of a bluish finish and sold them for like 600 bucks each and sold out immediately. So the very next meeting I was like, Hey guys, re remember that idea I had a while back. And so, so the very next wedge, we did the blue one and it was amazing. It was always, if you look at like sales percentages, you would sell 70% of the, the light color, the chrome or the satin or whatever. And 30% of the dark color. The second we launched the blue, it flipped. It was 70% blue, 30% white. Seriously. So it's Oh yeah, like that, like that quick just because it was different. It's unique in a we is like ,

Speaker 6 29:49

It looked cool too. It looked really good, honestly.

Speaker 7 29:51

It looked cool. It's, it's inexpensive enough and kind of something that churns through your bag fast enough that people will take a little bit of a risk and try something. Yeah .

Speaker 6 30:00

Oh , a whole set of blue clubs, you know. But if it's like, oh my wedge is this year, it's like,

Speaker 7 30:04

Yeah, exactly. So that, that was kind of a fun thing. But yeah, we've still had the blue wed , we just launched a new blue wedge just a little bit ago and it's killing it right now. Like it's just a unique look and it speaks to the meno color like that. That's what we are. That

Speaker 6 30:18

Blue . Yeah, that blue color too. That's like your logo color.

Speaker 7 30:21

Totally.

Speaker 6 30:21

That's so freaking fun dude .

Speaker 7 30:24

<laugh>

Speaker 6 30:25

Man, I could talk to you for two hours, but he has to go . I already know this. I'm gonna have him back on the show though. I got a million more questions for

Speaker 7 30:31

Let's do it. Anytime . Like I

Speaker 6 30:33

I'm gonna add you back. We gotta talk some more about other stuff.

Speaker 7 30:35

Yeah, we'll do I feel like we're just scratching the surface. We're

Speaker 6 30:37

Barely scratching the surface, but leave , have another meeting.

Speaker 7 30:40

I know, I know. That sucks. <laugh> . I

Speaker 6 30:42

Gotta be respectful of my guest time. But no,

Speaker 7 30:45

I, I appreciate you though dude. We gotta do this more and I'll ,

Speaker 6 30:48

We do like, this is cool 'cause see like this is what I love doing the show 'cause I like hanging out and like talking dork, you know, and then be like, oh yeah, I remember that club. And then that club sucks, you know, and whatever.

Speaker 7 31:00

But been doing it so long that we got stories about everything. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Yeah.

Speaker 6 31:05

But good

Speaker 7 31:05

For a

Speaker 6 31:05

Podcast . My story's only five years old. Your story's gonna be like 20 years old, so you're gonna be like, I remember just development. I'd be like, yeah dude, I was not , I was terrible. <laugh> , I was hitting my maji irons that my dad bought me that broke at the Dr Nice <laugh> You maji the knockoff Tings

Speaker 7 31:22

<laugh> . Oh yeah, I

Speaker 6 31:23

Off , I bring Snapped a face off that iron. I remember me , the dr I ran and the whole face just snapped. It was like , like how do you snap a face, dude, it was crazy.

Speaker 7 31:33

That's awesome.

Speaker 6 31:34

Yeah, that's how poor I was. <laugh> <laugh> like my dad when I glue it and stuff. Anyways , um, well thank you for being on the show. We'll definitely have you back soon

Speaker 7 31:44

'cause I appreciate it. No, this is awesome. We have a lot

Speaker 6 31:46

More talk about, I freaking get to talk about all my questions I had my my hard line , my hard line questions. Um, we'll,

Speaker 7 31:52

We'll get to those

Speaker 6 31:54

<laugh>. I'll be like Bill O'Reilly , whatever. Uh , <laugh> we're questioning , um, what's the other guy on Fox News? I can't think of his name. Anyways, anyways, thank you for being on this show today. You guys, Misso makes really good stuff, you know, it, their irons are phenomenal. Their wedges are really cool. I they're not coming with any new drivers this year. Right. That's you were telling me before next year probably we're

Speaker 7 32:16

Through with , we launched the St . Max earlier this year. Um, that whole line is really good. Like give it a shot. I know a lot of people kind of sleep on the Mauna Woods, but give them a shot. Yeah . Why is that ? I it comes from like, I , to me it comes from, and not, not to like keep dragging on, but it comes from like our own stuff. Like for the longest time we didn't have tour players playing our woods and that kind of said something, but that's all . Yeah .

Speaker 6 32:38

Doesn't really matter anymore with the tour. I mean, who's watching golf?

Speaker 7 32:41

Dude , it does . People love to say they don't care what people play on tour, but if you aren't played on tour, it kind of says something,

Speaker 6 32:48

It makes it worse. It's like you have to hire somebody because your competitor hires 'em . You're like, yeah ,

Speaker 7 32:53

Right. So it's so , so I , what I'll say is like put us up against like Keith Mitchell who literally led the tour last year in total driving. He's playing a MAO driver like, and uh , Grayson Murray who won earlier this year led the field strokes gain driving like with Mao Driver, like put it up against anything and it's gonna surprise a lot of people. There's a lot of good product out there, but we make some of the best. So give it a go. Yeah,

Speaker 6 33:15

That's for sure. Well, thank you for being on the show today. I really appreciate it. Um, I'm definitely gonna have you back, I think,

Speaker 7 33:20

Paul , it's always good to see you .

Speaker 6 33:21

I would love talk to you like once a month dude, talk <laugh> like the Dork Talk hour and talk about like, oh

Speaker 7 33:26

Yeah, that we gotta have our own Dork Talk logo .

Speaker 6 33:29

Yeah, we'd be Dork talk and I'll just , I'll let you just talk and I'll just be like the , you'd like be the smart guy and I'll be like the the dumb guy, like Oh yeah, <laugh> . Um, but thanks for being on the show you guys. Golden Mao's website. You guys , if you don't how I Mao then you probably should own a computer. Um, and I will see you guys in the next episode. Appreciate it.

Speaker 3 33:51

Thanks for listening to another episode of Behind the Golf Brand podcast. You're gonna beat me golf , stay connected, on and off the show by visiting golfers authority.com. Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a comment. Golf is always more fun when you win. Stay out of the beach and see you on the green.