#Clockedin with Jordan Edwards

#238 - Leadership Beyond the Title

• Jordan Edwards • Season 5 • Episode 238

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What separates truly exceptional leaders from those who merely hold positions of authority? Jim Carlough's leadership journey—from being elected city councilman at 22 to navigating complex corporate environments—reveals a profound truth: authentic leadership flows from how we treat people in every moment, not just during formal meetings or decision-making.

Through personal stories that span decades, Jim introduces us to his "non-negotiable pillar" of leadership integrity—a daily practice of asking whether he's done anything for personal gain at the expense of others. This simple yet transformative reflection has guided him since 1983 and forms the foundation of the trust he builds with teams. When Jim shares how he managed a department facing elimination, we witness the unexpected result: the highest employee satisfaction in a 20,000-person company, despite team members knowing their jobs would eventually disappear.

What makes this conversation particularly valuable is how Jim extends leadership principles beyond the boardroom into five essential life pillars: mental health, physical wellbeing, community service, relationships, and spirituality. Whether discussing the critical distinction between compassion and empathy, revealing how he engages with employees struggling with personal challenges, or sharing small acts of kindness that create ripple effects in communities, Jim demonstrates that leadership is a 24/7 practice that begins "when your feet hit the floor in the morning."

For anyone seeking to evolve as a leader—whether you're managing a corporate team, teaching a classroom, parenting children, or simply wanting to make a positive impact in your community—this episode offers practical wisdom about creating inclusive environments where people feel genuinely seen and valued. Jim's recently published book distills these insights into six human characteristics that transcend traditional leadership frameworks and remind us that at its core, leadership is about authentic connection.

Have you been viewing leadership as a title rather than a way of being? Listen now to discover how small, intentional actions can transform your impact on others and create ripples of positive change in every area of your life.

To Learn more about Jim: 

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jimcarlough

To Reach Jordan:

Email: Jordan@Edwards.Consulting

Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9ejFXH1_BjdnxG4J8u93Zw

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jordan.edwards.7503

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jordanfedwards/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanedwards5/



Hope you find value in this. If so please provide a 5-star and drop a review.

Complimentary Edwards Consulting Session: https://calendly.com/jordan-555/intro-call

Speaker 1:

Hey, what's going on, guys? I've got a special guest here. We have Jim Carlo. He's a true leader, author and speaker. Jim, where has leadership shown up in your life?

Speaker 2:

of growing up in a very small town in New Jersey and I was exposed to leadership. Unfortunately, after a tragedy hit the family I lost a brother in the Vietnam War and from that we were surrounded by people and military people and leaders and others from the community that just wanted to help, and from that experience sort of led me kind of on my road and pathway to what I wanted to do in life. One thing we knew was, after that tragedy, my parents, or our parents, said to us the rest of you are all going to college and that's non-negotiable. Your brother chose not to go to college. He got drafted but we're not going to have that happen again. And so there was no missing that directive from my family. Whether they could afford it or not, I mean we did have. We were not wealthy, so we had a lot of financial aid, but it was like we're making this decision for you. You're going to college, which was probably one of the best things that then propelled me in that, because I majored in psychology and it really helped me to understand people and ultimately my thought process was I could go anywhere with this. I could go medical school, I could go law school, I could go business world. So I ended up taking that into the business world.

Speaker 2:

But ironically, my first leadership job after college was I was elected to be a city councilman at the age of 22 in the town that I grew up in, and that's when leadership really started. I mean, if you think about it, you wake up one morning, you win an election. The next morning you're on, right. You're not sworn in yet, but you're on and people are going to start asking you questions. And my first exposure was when the city manager asked me to speak to him for a couple of minutes and I thought, oh boy, what did I get myself into right? I didn't know what to expect.

Speaker 2:

And we sat down and we spoke and he said look, he said you won the election. The job is yours. I'm just going to give you one piece of advice. He said when you go to bed at night, if you can put your head on the pillow and you close your eyes and think about the day, and if you can answer the following question with a no, you had a successful day.

Speaker 2:

And that question was did I do anything today for my own personal, financial or professional gain at the expense of another individual, family or organization, and he said if you can answer no, then you did the right thing that day. Do you know? Since that day in 1983, I continue to ask myself that very question and to me that level of integrity is non-negotiable. And I think that's missed a lot of times in leadership, but it's not missed on me and anybody who's worked with me would tell you Jim is very consistent in terms of, you know, just in terms of integrity. You know he doesn't waver from that middle of the road to favor one thing or the other at the expense of anybody.

Speaker 1:

And I call that the non-negotiable pillar yeah, I love that because you start to think about it and you go, whoa, this is profound for for you. What caused someone at 22 years old to think I can be a city councilman because that's stepping into leadership? Like, yes, there's leadership roles that are bestowed upon us, but there's also leadership where we step up and sign up for that. So how did you?

Speaker 2:

So my dad had given back to the town as a volunteer fireman. We all did something volunteering in town. I was on the first aid and rescue squad at the time and through college and then for a period after that. So we're always taught to give back, but it really started in high school, the small high school I went to, and this is interesting because to this day that high school does not have locks on any lockers and nothing gets stolen. Yeah, to this day. That tells you the type of community you live in, and this was a middle-class community. This was not, you know, an executive fenced-in community that you have to go past a guard to get in and everybody's stiff. This is a middle-class community and there's no locks on lockers.

Speaker 2:

But every year, as part of the senior year, they had what they call a junior mayor campaign, where the students then who win take over the town for a day. Oh wow, work with those city government people in various capacities. And it starts in history class and I was sitting in. Mr Steer was the teacher of history class and he was talking about this junior mayor campaign and the young lady who sat next to me, tracy Losko, said you need to be the mayor and I said I don't need to be the mayor. She said no, you do need to be the mayor. She said you speak well, you always have the right answer. And she said I don't care, if you don't want to be it, I'm nominating you. So she nominated me.

Speaker 2:

I then had to create, you know, an election committee, because you ran it like a regular election. You had a debate, you had to make presentations, and so I ran against two other people and I won, and it was a great experience. But that also exposed me to the city leaders. You know, in this small town was 13000 people. It's not that big, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So everyone gets to meet each other, and it's more of this organic setting. Meet each other, and it's more of this organic setting. But even if, if that girl didn't- bestow on.

Speaker 2:

She had leadership. Being like you should do this. It's all her fault. It is absolutely all her fault. But look where I am today as a result of of what has happened right.

Speaker 1:

Well, because now you step into that confidence of who you know you can be, because there's so many of us that are just hiding, being like I don't want to be in the spotlight, I don't want to do this, and that's why, with Edwards Consultant, we have five pillars. We have mental health, physical health, community service, philanthropy, spirituality and relationships, and what I'd like to do is just so this can become actionable for everybody listening, the teacher, the mom, the business owner, all the different areas of life. Where it's, where can leadership show up in these different parts? So, for you, regarding mental health, where do you think leadership shows up in that? Because there's not too often that that conversation is being had.

Speaker 2:

Well, and you're spot on. I mean, we do have a major problem with mental health in the United States today and probably even outside the United States, but we see it close to home and a lot of my leadership principles are all focused on the person or the persons that you're dealing with. And I think it shows up in two areas specifically, but also others compassion and empathy. And if you can't show compassion and empathy I mean integrity builds trust with employees you have to have the trust.

Speaker 1:

One thing you are very knowledgeable. Let's slow it down, for like what are the definitions of compassion, empathy, integrity, like what do you mean by these?

Speaker 2:

So integrity again, staying middle of the road, always having making the right decision, without favoritism that would favor somebody and hurt somebody else.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

But empathy and compassion gets confused, I think, by some leaders. Compassion is me showing concern for something that you're going through and offering to be of help. Empathy is a little bit different. Empathy is me putting myself in your shoes and really understanding what I need to do to be different. So let me give you an example.

Speaker 2:

For sure, and we're going to sunset that platform and migrate people to the Windows platforms that we were developing, and so I had to tell these people their jobs were going to be going away over a two to three year period. And I struggled with it and I said, if I was in their shoes, what would I want from my leader? I want from my leader, and I came up with three things and I made those three commitments to that team of 25 or 30 people. Commitment number one was even though we will be reducing the staff, I will give them as much notice as physically possible. If we know we're moving client X in nine months, you'll have nine months notice that your job's going away. Yes, If it's three months, it's three months. So commitment number one was I wouldn't hide it from you. I would let you know when I think your position was going away. Number two was if they wanted to migrate from their current team into the teams that were supporting the Windows capabilities whether they were an engineer or account manager or sales I would make that happen. I would make the learning available to them to get to understand the coding that would be required and then, when the time came, they could move from team A to team B, which wouldn't be under me but would still be within the same organization. The third thing I promised was if anyone wanted to look for a different role in the organization, I would support them 100% and work with them to find the right position. But also, if they did want to make the decision that they didn't want to stay with the organization, I would give you the same level of effort and help you find a job on the outside.

Speaker 2:

Two things happened. The first one is what I expected and what I was hoping for. Nobody quit before their job was eliminated because I needed them. 100% of them gave me the commitment and nobody quit before they were told their job was going away. Here's what I did not expect For that three-year period, that team or that department had the highest employee satisfaction rate in a 20,000-person company. Oh wow, Think about that and showing that level of empathy to employees to say I've got your back. Not only kept them committed and loyal to their leader, they trusted me, which was the integrity first, and they wrote it. And I never expected I would have still expected a team that knew their job was going away to be unhappy, but they weren't unhappy because there was a plan and they were included in that plan. And so I eliminated potentially or we eliminated by everything that we did potentially the mental health crisis that they could have gone through in that, through that event.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and so then it gets everyone sitting here listening how does this apply to me? And you start to realize how often are you having empathy with your children, or having empathy with your colleagues, or having empathy with your parents, or having empathy with your children, like there's just so much there to unpack and I think it's incredible. But it's a great intro to where leadership shows up in all these different areas of life, because for us, it's not always as black and white as this and that it's before we make a decision and before we speak. How is my decision going to impact others? How am I going to make others feel better or worse based on this? So I think that was an incredible insight. Now, where do you see leadership showing up in the next pillar, which is physical health?

Speaker 2:

Like, where is this showing up and where can people start to see this area From a physical health perspective, and I think that's why it's important for leaders to understand their employees health perspective, and I think that's why it's important for leaders to understand their employees. The leader who doesn't spend time with their employees and just rides this freight elevator to their office is not going to know their employees. I know when one of my employees is not having a good day, whether they're remote or in the same office that I'm sitting in or on a Zoom call. I can tell and when I sense that, I'll ask them. I'll role play with you. Jordan. You seem a little off today. Is there anything I can help you with? And it's not that I'm trying to get Jordan to unload on me, but I want Jordan to understand I'm here to help, whether it's personal or professional.

Speaker 1:

I'm an advocate for jordan right and that's very different, very, very different than the conventional. Yeah, so, like, what have you been working on? Like it's an like a lack of awareness and just going right to the work, and that's why two or three questions before you even get started, and that's slowing down in that presence really allows someone to sit there and go. I'm here with you. How can I help? And it's not saying tell me your problem, it's how can I help you which?

Speaker 1:

I love, because that's just miss. And I, I, I'm feeling that remote, we're remote right now and I'm feeling I start every one-on-one conversation with employees with how are you doing today?

Speaker 2:

And it's a sincere question and they know I'm being sincere and if they tell me I'm having a bad day I don't brush over it Like some leaders. Go through the motions right and ask the question but really don't listen to the answer. But you've got to listen. Don't ask a question and not expect somebody to answer it. And when they answer it you've got to be able to. You can't just brush it off.

Speaker 2:

If you're having a major issue today or your child is very ill and you're at work, or whatever stressor you're dealing with in life, it's going to impact what your day-to-day, which is going to impact your work, which I may be able to help with or alleviate. I had an employee a few weeks ago. I'll give you another example. He called me. He said Jim. He said I have a problem and I said what is that? He said my wife fell. I got to get her to the emergency room. Her ankle is pointing the wrong way. She's probably going to need surgery.

Speaker 2:

And I said to him go. He said but I've got meetings I've got to do today. I said you're not doing a single meeting today. Pass them to me. I've how thoughtful that was for me to take that pressure off his back and just say go right, go, get off the phone and go. Your focus is your wife. My focus is backing you up and having your back, and a leader has to do that 100%, because, like you just said, two months, months later, he's still bringing this up.

Speaker 1:

He's gonna bring it up 10 years later because it's such a profound moment. And I think that's really what I wanted jim coming on the podcast for is that there's these moments in our life where it can make a profound difference. Not for us, I doubt jim's gonna remember the day he had a cover for. It's not for them, it's for the person that you're helping, because it's a profound day for them, knowing that the company had their back, no matter what happens and no matter what it is, and it allows you to want to be part of that team, and it's something that most of us completely miss. Now, the third pillar is community service and philanthropy. I know you grew up in a small town. I know you volunteered. How do you see community service and philanthropy in leadership and how do you think about that? Because this is an area that most people I speak with struggle the most, because they just don't have an awareness of it, because we're in a world where it's I don't have enough, I don't have enough, I'm struggling.

Speaker 2:

So for me, when I meet with people or when I actually do performance reviews, we always focus on what do you want to do in the future, and that can be work-related or not work-related. And I'll give you a non-work-related example. That's a real example from a few years ago. I had an employee say you know what I want to do for professional development for next year? I want to become a board member of a non-profit that focuses on animal rescue any type of animal rescue and I said, okay, I said that's going to be your goal for your performance review next year. And their response was well, that's not work related. I said it's not important. It's about you.

Speaker 2:

If you and your life want to give back to a nonprofit or to the community, I got your back, I grew up giving back, I still give back, and everybody to me, it's important to always be giving back to the community. That community could be your local civic area, you know, or city or town. It could be the library board, it could be, you know, you don't have to be the mayor of a town, but there's a lot of other volunteer opportunities for people that you can actually do just by giving a little time and effort you don't. It doesn't cost you money to do that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and. But there's that and there's money. These kids holding up signs being like we want to play football but we can't afford the equipment. And I'm like, looking at my wallet, I only have a $20 bill and I'm like, usually I give smaller amounts, but I was like they need it more than me. Like you know what I mean. And I'm like is the $20 going to change my life? No, will I feel better about myself?

Speaker 1:

Yes, and when you start to get into these places of giving, I'm gonna be honest with you guys. It's not about the other person. Like it's a very nice gesture, but it makes you feel good and that's why sometimes it's a selfish act. Like I gave him money but I felt good about it. Like and that becomes a very interesting proponent here where it's if I do more good, I'll feel better. And everyone thinks oh, you're this giving person. No, like I feel good about it. I'm going to do where I feel good and in a positive way, because it makes me step into this. Jordan, you have more than enough. You can help these people.

Speaker 2:

So you know, I'll give you two examples of some things that I've done in the past is I used to, when I worked in a formal office and not remote, I used to always stop at McDonald's for a Diet Coke in the morning. So on Friday it was always give back Friday and so I was only getting a Diet Coke, but I paid for the person's stuff that was in the car behind me and just to get that wave or that nod, you can see the appreciation on their face. The other thing is I mean, who doesn't love Girl Scout cookies, right? So when I come out of the store and they're there selling Girl Scout cookies, I'll turn to the little Girl Scout and I'll say which one are your favorites? And I'll use Thin Mints, which are my favorite, but I don't, I'm not allowed to eat as many cookies as I used to. So in fact my wife says I'm not allowed to bring any home.

Speaker 2:

So if the little girl says Thin Mints, I'll say OK, I'll buy a box of Thin Mints, I hand the money over, she'll hand me the box and I'll say no, these are for you. And it's totally unexpected. But I'm like, and the leader or parent that's with them is like no, you need to take those, and I'm like no, they're for you. If you would like to donate them to somebody else, or the military or somebody that you see that could use cookies, because they can't afford it, please give it to them. But to me, that makes my heart happy.

Speaker 1:

Yes, and there's just so many ways to show up good for the world because we go through this struggle of you hear so much negativity on the news, you hear all these bad things and it's like we don't have to step into that frame. We can create our own frame and that's what I think leadership is all about it's stepping into that. We're our own selves and we create who we want to be. So where do you see your leadership, which is pillar number four is relationships. So this can be personal relationships, business relationships, wherever you want to see it. But where do you see leadership there? Because there's just most of the time people think I have my friends, because I have my friends and I always go. I don't know that that's true. The reason I say that is because I think you're super intentional with your friends, like you're super intentional with your one-on-ones, and I think that changes the impact of relationships.

Speaker 2:

I agree and, as a leader, I'm not the type of leader that says leadership begins when you sit down at your desk and somebody walks into your office. To me, leadership begins when you put your foot on the floor getting out of bed in the morning and ends when you crawl back into bed at the end of the night. And I, for example, if you're parking your car in the parking lot.

Speaker 2:

You have an opportunity to impact somebody's day in a positive way on the way you, while you're walking from your car into the building, and I would always talk to people.

Speaker 2:

How's your day? Simple enough. Yeah Well, if you think about it, I worked with a leader once that would go into the building a back way and get in the freight elevator to go up to the executive floor and, you know, to sneak into their office. And I'm like, what are you saying to your employees? You're not approachable. And to me I'm saying I'm approachable. I want to know who you are. I'll talk. My wife hates it. I'll talk to anybody when we go out to dinner. I mean, I'll talk to people and you know, or I'll photo bomb them, you know, just for fun. And I and she's like, stop acting like a child. But the people actually get a smile on their face. In fact it's funny.

Speaker 2:

A friend of ours' son got married and we're like family and our kids all grew up together. So they were doing a family photo at the end of the wedding at the reception, and my one son and I took two chairs and snuck behind the picture and stood in the back of the family. They never knew we were there because as soon as the picture was taken we got, grabbed the chairs and ran. We get a phone call from the mother of the young man who got married, laughing hysterically because they had just printed those photos and realized their family photo had my sonrew and I in the back and they love that picture because this woman also always used to introduce herself as my second wife.

Speaker 2:

Um, that's how close we were. Um, yeah, of course, but it's just to me the fact that now they display that picture of their family and we're part of that. We did it. We figured that there would they would pick a different picture to print, but they didn't. They picked that picture to print because they love it so much, because it's a reflection on them as well that their family is not just the blood family that they have, it's other families that make them whole in life and complete that circle.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Yeah, and this is a great reminder that family is not always blood, but there's also by choice. And what I mean by that is that if you offer those doors of basically what Jim's trying to say here and what I'm taking from this is that whenever you go out into the world or whenever you talk to people or whenever you interact with people, there's someone that opens the door and there's someone that closes the door. What I mean by that is starting conversation, ending conversation. If you're one to start the conversation or have a good idea or like let's all go out to dinner together or let's all go to this wedding or let's all go do this activity, whatever it may be, it opens the door because you're an inviter and leaders are inviters.

Speaker 1:

Leaders set the example and leaders are able to have humor and fun because no one cares about the perfect picture. We all know everything's posed. Like half of these photos that people see on walls are like that was posed, it looks too nice, and you realize that and you start to realize, like, what the actual important thing is having fun and authentically being there with the people you love. So the final pillar is spirituality, and how do you see leadership and spirituality, and the reason I use that is because I know it's not religion, it's not any of that, but it's more of like. Is there more to this? And some people say yes, some people say no, but where do you see leadership in spirituality?

Speaker 2:

I'm sort of with you. It doesn't have to be religious in nature although I am religious. It's having something you believe in that's a greater purpose, and that could be through the Bible or through church, or it could be just in what you're doing in and around your community. And you know, we live in a great country and, yes, we have our ups and downs, but we have it so far better off than a lot of areas around the world and we should take advantage of that. And life is too short, and life is really too short. I'll tell you once.

Speaker 2:

I didn't get in trouble for it, but I created a little commotion. I felt that a team I had at a period of time was a little snobby and not personal enough, and so we had this woman, kathy. Kathy used to clean our kitchen at the office, take out the trash and clean up after everybody leaves their garbage behind. She never asked for anything in return, and I noticed that I was the only one that ever talked to Kathy. So I sent an email to the entire floor and I said the first person that can tell me the name of the woman that cleans up after us, I'll give a $50 Starbucks card too.

Speaker 2:

I sent that email out, walked out of my office and watched and it was like helter skelter people running around trying to find Kathy A. They didn't know who Kathy was, other than I said, the woman who picks up after us. But it scared the death out of Kathy because then they're all coming up to her trying to wanting to know her name. But it sent them a message that it's more than just you. Yeah, you've got to think of everybody, and everybody has a purpose and everybody collectively make up the team.

Speaker 2:

The team is not just you and your manager, or just not the salesperson. The team is everybody. You have to believe in that and you have to believe in that team, that team construct, in order to be successful, not just in business, if you're a coach, if you're a teacher, if you're, this is everything that I talk about and, similar to you, jordan, it's about the personal side of people, their emotional well-being, their emotional health and making sure that they're in a good place, they're having fun, they're being successful, they're doing what they want to do and if not, you're just like me, you're going to want to help them yeah, and you start to realize here that your life isn't just an indicator of like my job or my this or my, that we all have 20.

Speaker 1:

Like, if I asked Jim right now, what different roles does he play? He goes dad, sales leader, author, but like, we all have 25 different roles and that's good because it allows us to show up more authentically as ourselves and we have more perspectives. And when you start to be in that inclusive environment, people know when stuff's inclusive, people know when stuff's exclusive. And it was funny that you said that is because I went to the gym today and I was sitting there and everyone like it was 6am, there's so many people. There's friday morning and I'm like what, I'm getting frustrated. I'm literally sitting there and I'm like people are showing up, they're taking their shirt. Why are there so many people around me? I need my space and what I ended up doing was I started to walk around and I would talk to people because I felt uncomfortable, because I didn't know them.

Speaker 1:

But once you start to know people, it's like, oh, that's my friend. I don't know why he's here so early and maybe I'll tell him to come later, but at least I know who he is, and you start getting these smiles and this camaraderie, and it's literally a one-word sentence and it just it all starts off with hi, hello, wave your hand, throw up the peace sign, do whatever, but it allows you to make this more community, because everywhere we're going, it doesn't have to be so siloed, and I feel like we're trying to combat a lot of that with COVID and everyone being remote warriors and all this kind of stuff, because we're not that social. And you're absolutely right.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, I totally agree with you. You know, COVID changed the world and I think the world's adapting to that. But now, as things are coming back together, I think you know, I think we have to start. I have started with my team focusing on not getting them to an office, but getting them out of their home office and into in front of the customer again home office and into in front of the customer again. Yes, I think it's time that we start working closer with our customers, whether internal or external, and my big focus is stop using email as a crutch and start picking up the phone.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I have had, obviously I've done a lot of podcasts and from my talks with different people, a lot of them go. I don't know that my team can have this conversation. I don't know if they can be open to random questions. And all of these different directions that we're going in because they don't practice, and all of this stuff directions that we're going in because they don't practice, and all of this stuff is just a skill. So what Jim's kind of getting at with the phone call is it's just a skill. So I know we're running out of time and because we don't have too much time for this, so I want to get into it. Jim, I know for the past year or so you've been working on your book. I know the book just came out. Tell me about what was the journey of writing the book and then what's the book about and where can people learn about it?

Speaker 2:

So for me, I've been mentoring people for a little over 25 years and it first started by happen chance. Somebody came to me and said hey, can I call on you for advice? Actually, they said can I call on you for free advice? Which advice is always free for me anyway? But I said absolutely.

Speaker 2:

But I've noticed something as I've mentored people over the last 25 years and I realized it a little over a year ago, and that was people were missing these human characteristics of how to work and deal with people. So I sat down and I started to say A should I write a book? Can I write a book and what would it be about? And I listed a list of characteristics and it was about 15 items long and I said there's no way we're going to make a book out of this. So I consolidated it to the most important six, covered most all of them here today humor, empathy, compassion, integrity. We also trickled into others focus and stability in some of our conversation.

Speaker 2:

But to me this book is not just about leadership, because you don't have to be an executive to get something from this book. You could be a school teacher, you could be a doctor. If you're dealing with people, you can get something from this book, and so I think it has a place on people's shelves and it's actionable. Each chapter will have a story, it'll talk a little bit about the pillar, and it'll also give you real life examples of people in the business world today, mostly in the United States, that you can relate to to say, hey, that person operates with integrity, and then you can learn more about them as well.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and the relatability, I think, is the most important thing, because a lot of us have heard these words. But even throughout this experience of going integrity, and then you define it and then you have your sleeping ritual with it, like you have all these different things where you integrate it, then it starts to become part of your bloodline, where you're really thinking about these things and, as Jim said, we did look through, we went through a majority of these, through the stories and through the examples of what we were sharing, and that's why I think it is a very profound thing, because most people do struggle with leadership and if you didn't get anything from this podcast, the main thing is that leadership is everywhere we're showing up. Everywhere we show up, we show up as a leader, and these are the, these are the skills and the pieces needed to really have that true leadership. So, jim, where can people learn more about you? Where can they hear about you?

Speaker 2:

And if they want to learn more, so they can go to my website, which is wwwjimcarloughcom. You can order the book via the website, or you can order the book via Barnes and Noble or Amazon, or you can reach out to me from my website. If you've got a question, need help, mentoring or just want to have somebody to talk to, I'd be more than happy to take that call, have an interaction or connect with me on LinkedIn. I've got a huge LinkedIn following and it's only growing as a result of the book. So feel free to look me up and network with me.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely, and we'll put all that in the show notes. Thank you, jim, really appreciate the time.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, jordan, it was great being here.

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Jordan Edwards

Host