#Clockedin with Jordan Edwards

#248 - From Ivy League to Prison to Millionaire!

• Jordan Edwards • Season 5 • Episode 248

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"Hope is a picture of a better future." These profound words frame Ken Miller's extraordinary journey from academic prodigy to rock bottom and back again. Born to a teenage runaway and a drug dealer, Ken's early life in foster care gave way to academic excellence—National Merit Scholar, Harvard acceptance, and ultimately a Dartmouth degree. But beneath this achievement lurked a devastating alcohol addiction that would derail his promising future.

The stark contrast between Ken's potential and his reality becomes breathtaking as he recounts his twenty-year descent—from corporate success to homeless shelters, from intellectual promise to crack addiction, from respectable graduate to three-time convicted felon. With unflinching honesty, Ken describes how his addiction led to increasingly desperate criminal activity, including robbery, burglary, and drug dealing, each offense pushing him further from redemption and closer to a life sentence under Nevada's habitual criminal statute.

What makes Ken's story so powerful is the pivot moment that changed everything. After being arrested for selling crack cocaine, Ken experienced an unexpected emotion: relief. Rather than despair, he felt hope—that mustard seed of possibility that prison might save him from certain death on the streets. This moment of clarity began a transformation as Ken committed to leave prison fundamentally different than he entered, working systematically on his mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual health.

Today, Ken Miller stands as living proof that our darkest moments don't define us. He's built Denali FSP, a seven-figure consulting company, authored multiple books, mentors young Black men, and maintains a beautiful family life that once seemed impossible. His journey illuminates essential truths about forgiveness, releasing shame, and finding purpose through service to others.

Ready to transform your own story? Ken's message is clear: regardless of where you've been or what you've done, you are extraordinary, unique, and valuable. The journey from brokenness to wholeness begins with that first mustard seed of hope.

To Learn more about Ken: 

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kenmiller84/

To Reach Jordan:

Email: Jordan@Edwards.Consulting

Youtube:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9ejFXH1_BjdnxG4J8u93Zw

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jordan.edwards.7503

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jordanfedwards/

Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanedwards5/



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Complimentary Edwards Consulting Session: https://calendly.com/jordan-edwardsconsulting/30min

Speaker 1:

Hey, what's going on, guys? I've got a special guest here today. We're welcoming you guys to the Hashtag Clocked In podcast, where we dive into raw stories of resilience, reinvention and relentless growth. Today's guest went from Ivy League to prison to building a seven-figure business with purpose. This isn't just inspiration, it's a wake-up call. I want to welcome Ken Miller, and we're so excited to have you on the Hashtag Clocked In podcast.

Speaker 1:

So, Ken for you. What led to this downfall, some would say. And then what was the wake-up call? Because I feel like it's up down, up down. It's very challenging.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, there's been some ups and downs throughout life and my story is probably a little bit unique, but it's one that people can still resonate with. So, very simply, I was born in 1962. I'm 62 years old now. My mother was a white teenage runaway prostitute and fell in with my father, who was a drug dealer and a pimp in New York, and so she got pregnant, I think at age 17, and put me up for adoption at birth. Oh wow, six years of foster homes and a lot of who I am is about my foster home period. I was adopted at age six by Irene and Sam Miller. I was living in upstate New York, then at age 12, moved to Anchorage.

Speaker 2:

I was what you would call precocious, in that I was. Academically and intellectually I did very, very well. I was a National Merit Scholar by the age of 17. I was accepted to Harvard. I went to Dartmouth College Ivy League, got my degree graduated in 1984. But unfortunately I graduated with a degree in fraternity with a minor in drinking. So I got out. Truth, unfortunately I got out. But I did go into the corporate world, got sober for the first time, went into the corporate world and then after about two or three years. I relapsed and I was going to end up spending the next 20 years on the streets and what I call on the streets. It's so funny. When you said raw, I said, yeah, that's my story. It's raw and I spent 20 years on the streets. I'm a three time convicted felon. I've been to prison three different times, but today I'm a very successful businessman, I'm a mentor, I'm a husband, I'm a grandfather and I'm just an all around nice guy grandfather and I'm just an all-around nice guy.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I could say that too. Kent's been nothing but awesome. We did a pre-call and he's amazing, but getting so for you. I really want to dive into this. So you're going to dartmouth. Are you feeling like over the moon at this point, like you feel excited and you've like made it and you're sufficient, or it's just not?

Speaker 2:

no, I I have. This is my thinking. At the age of 17, I had like 160 colleges, you know, wanted me to apply to their colleges. This is 1979 and you know, because I I was an athlete, I was intellectual, I'm black, I'm from Alaska, I fit a lot of boxes and so I only applied to three colleges. I applied to Oberlin, dartmouth and Harvard. Oh wow, my mother had gone to Columbia's Teachers College to get her master's. I came from her, you know, this is my adoptive mother. So when it came time to choose a college because I got into all three of them she very simply said which one do you want to go to? And I said Oberlin. She said that's great, what is your first choice? And so it was going to be either be Dartmouth or Harvard. And I hated cities, hated cities. So I said I'll go to Dartmouth.

Speaker 1:

Had never been there, never seen it, it you know other than a brochure.

Speaker 2:

All all of these were just so because alaska's so far away. All of these were just guesses. Yeah, yeah, but I had a reason why I was. I don't want to go into this too much. I had a reason why I didn't want to go to the other ivy league school yale's in the city, brown's in the city, cornell.

Speaker 2:

I didn't count as an ivy columbus in the city, even though my mom went there for her master's princeton was in new jersey. I'm from new york, I hate new jersey, so I couldn't go there. I couldn't go to. This is a 17 year old thinking, you know yeah, the rational yeah, so it really came down to dartmouth and a lot of alaskans went to dartmouth because you know it's out in the woods and they had a great ski team very nature-y like you, kind of get both similar by far the closest and we probably had more, and they also they have a great program for Native Americans, because Dartmouth was founded for Native Americans.

Speaker 2:

A lot of people don't really, yeah, interesting, yeah, yeah, it was like it was seven native americans in 1769. Oh, wow, that's awesome yeah, so it always, always had a real strong native american presence there and, uh, so a lot of alaskans, alaskan natives, have gone there also oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 1:

And then you end up graduating yeah you do the normal corporate role. And then what ended up happening? Because it seems like people are this. A lot of this seems to be happening today. That's why I think it's so important.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So what happened was for me, I came out of Dartmouth as a full-blown alcoholic. Oh wow, dartmouth is a full blown alcoholic. I mean that means I had the inability still to this day have the inability to control how much I drink. Once I start I may go and say I just want two beers, but 20 beers later you know I'm drunk and I'm making really bad decisions. So I knew that, my mom knew that, and so my graduation present. I thought I was going to get a car. I didn't get a car. I got my first treatment center, really To a place called North Point in Anchorage, alaska, outpatient, and I was to remain sober for the next two, two and a half years for the next two, two and a half years, and I think it's important.

Speaker 1:

I think it's important to bring this up is because a lot of people associate college drinking with oh, it's fine, it's fine, it's not a big deal, it's just college, they're having fun. And then you start to see people graduate and they're still having those similar habits and they still go. It's fun, it's fine, it's one year out, it's not a big deal. So at least your mom had this wherewithal to go. Hey, this is really important and this needs to be a real focus.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, diamond didn't make me an alcoholic, I just want to make sure everybody hears that my fraternity, which was called Bonesgate, did not make me an alcoholic, was called Bonesgate did not make me an alcoholic.

Speaker 1:

What it allowed is those to identify because you see the behavior and the drinking pattern, those who are either heavy drinkers or alcoholics, yes or binge drinkers or one-time drinker, and you still have a problem.

Speaker 2:

You can get drunk one time and get a DUI problem. You can get drunk one time and get a dui. You can get drunk one time and wake up with someone you do not want to be waking up with. I mean, yeah, it doesn't matter whether you're alcohol, I just do it a lot more often than because I'm alcoholic, I can't control and I drank all the time.

Speaker 1:

I mean, yeah, it's this culture yeah, and it's this cultural thing that a lot of us don't realize that the people around us affect us. So when we get around different people, we're going to act differently, and that's why it's important to have a strong circle that supports you in a positive way.

Speaker 2:

Well, especially in sobriety. Yeah, absolutely. What the fraternity allowed me was individuals that were like me, you know, in their drinking patterns, people that would co-sign on my bad behavior and made it less painful than being in another environment If I drank to the extent I drank, if I was in the military, if I was in the corporate world, and it did. You know, I've lost jobs, you know I've lost relationships due to my drinking, because those people could not continue to put up with that.

Speaker 2:

So you know, I get out, I get cleaned up, I relapse because I'm 23, 24. I was at that time working for Kodak and I didn't think I was an alcoholic.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you still, even after going. You were just.

Speaker 2:

I thought that was due to the environment.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

How I felt in college. I had a lot of difficulties emotionally.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

In college. Okay, and so when I got out and I'm wearing Hickey Freeman suits and Alan Edmonds wingtip shoes and ties and making fifty thousand, which was a lot of money in eighty five, yeah.

Speaker 2:

I'm thinking this is, this is what the alcoholic wants. I want to drink without pain on the back end. I can't. I want to drink without pain on the back end. I can't. There's no way I can drink without pain on the back end of my head. So, but at that time I'm 23,. I'd only drank for three years in college three, four years. I've been sober. Now two, two and a half years.

Speaker 2:

Maybe I can drink like a normal person yeah and I drank my first drink in hawaii on vacation a blue hawaiian, never forget it. And within two days I'm a mess. I'm two days because I can't, I don't have a turnoff switch, I don't, I don't, and the same thing with drugs I did not have a turnoff switch so as soon as it starts, it goes and goes and goes, and it's this awareness that we need to.

Speaker 1:

I think the biggest thing for everyone listening is to realize, like, if you're trying to get over something it's what ken said right there it's associating it to negative things. Where it's you sitting there, going at the very end and going, hey, there's no good outcome of me doing this activity. And people need to realize that because most of the time when you ask them oh, what do you? Do you like drinking or what like, is it? What do you think of? When someone says drinking, they're like fun. Okay, if you say fun, you're gonna have a very different outcome than if you think bad experience, like these are very different outcomes and that's what causes people to jump in or jump out.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it's a lot of individuals that are probably you know, listen to this show probably from the business world or Absolutely Successful. You know one thing to hear this, what I had to learn is I, I had to learn what questions am I asking for my desired result? And this is in business, this is in life. And the question I had been asking is why am I an alcoholic? Why am I an alcoholic? And I kept looking for antecedents to my alcoholism. There's reasons because of the foster, because I was beat as a child, because my dad shot my mom six times.

Speaker 2:

I'm thinking these are the reasons why I'm an alcoholic. No, no, I'm an alcoholic. I was born an alcoholic, 100%, that's my truth. And it didn't matter. Because, what the problem is, when you think it's antecedents and or environment, I'll change the environment and I'll change the way I look at the antecedents. Okay, yeah, I'll go to treat, I'll go to a counseling or treatment or whatever, and I'll look at the antecedents differently, the preceding you know, precursors or feelings. Yeah, and then, once I do that, then I can drink like a normie, but it doesn't matter, it does not matter where I'm at who I'm with, why I'm doing it.

Speaker 2:

I can't control the amount once I start. So again I go back, I relapse in 86, 87, get out in 84, sober for about two years, I relapseed and literally within about a year, I'm homeless. As an Ivy graduate, I am homeless. And so what does homeless mean? There's different levels of homelessness and I'm at like, literally the bottom level of homelessness. I'm in the missions, I'm in the missions, and I'm in Peniel Mission, union Gospel Mission, bread of Life Mission, downtown, you know, service center, and this is all in Seattle. And so I am a homeless black, 24, 25-year-old. And then I get introduced to crack.

Speaker 1:

So you're going to all these different missions to basically survive.

Speaker 2:

Well, yeah, get out of the rain. Yeah, of course, because you know. You know people say they get a bed. You don't. There ain't no such thing as a bed. You know, I told somebody, happiness is not sleeping on a mat. I slept on mats for like 20 years because in prison you have mats, yeah, you have mats, and in the missions you have a mat, which is, you know, three to four inches of foam that you sleep on, and it's you know and to me that it just represents something.

Speaker 2:

I sleep on a thousand dollar bed. Ok yeah, size vibrates, reclines, all this stuff. Size vibrates, reclines, all this stuff. And there's times I will lie on my bed and I'll just kick my legs Because I'm so happy and so grateful for the life I have today, just like a child.

Speaker 1:

That perspective is so powerful. No, it really is. Because, people, when you you don't have to go through Ken's experience to have that gratitude, you can sit there. And when you lie your head on your through Ken's experience to have that gratitude, you can sit there. And when you lie your head on your bed tonight, be super grateful that you're like oh my God, I have a bed. Oh my God.

Speaker 2:

Be super grateful. So this is the, this is the deal. I get to tell you the stories, or the stories are in the book, but I get to tell you the stories. You don't have to live them. Yes, because my stories are not pretty, they're not fun. Remember, you said raw. Yeah, my story is raw, but then we're also going to talk about where I am today and how I got there. So let me just continue on that little quick 20 years.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

I do that. I begin, and you know you start here and then you work your way down.

Speaker 1:

That wasn't my bottom.

Speaker 2:

You know, first time I went to jail or the first time I did treatment, I've done 14 inpatient treatment centers for Wow.

Speaker 2:

OK, so I'm starting to do the treatment and treatment centers, but now I'm on the streets. The problem with being on the streets is that I can't work. I can't keep a job. I need income to pay for my addiction. So what do you do?

Speaker 2:

So I got into situations where I was a pimp. I got in situations where I was an armed robber. I've done a kidnapping robber. I've done a kidnapping. I have been a male prostitute. I have been an individual that was I mug people. I'm a convicted burglar and I'm a convicted drug dealer.

Speaker 2:

So you can see, those are the things that I did and you could say, under the influence of alcohol. But sometimes, most of the time, you do crimes in pursuit of money to do drugs. It's not when you're on the drug. I want to enjoy the drug. I'm not out there committing crimes when I'm high, committing crimes when I come down, and so I was a menace, and so I was sentenced on three different occasions to prison. I spent years behind bars and on the last time I was sentenced on three different occasions to prison. I spent years behind bars and on the last time I was convicted, I was assured the next time I came into the courtroom that I was going to get the habitual criminal statute, which would have been a minimum of 25 to life. Oh wow, that's if I stole $51.

Speaker 2:

It's like striking out but this is the state of Nevada. Yeah, okay, cause I'm a three-time convicted felon already. This would have been my fourth. There's no word Judge was. He's like Mr Miller, that's what they call it, mr Miller. They didn't call me Ken. Mr Miller didn't call me Ken. Mr Miller, if you come in my courtroom one more time, I'm giving you the habitual criminal statute. He was so angry at me, not the severity of my offenses, but here I am, an Ivy League educated, grew up in a good family. Quote unquote yeah, you know, had a good life and had done well and was a contributing member of society, like I am today, and I threw that all away to remain in this addiction.

Speaker 1:

And how did you feel at that time? Like just going through all of these in, out, in out. It must've been so unstable, challenging, what.

Speaker 2:

Self-hatred, self-hatred, very low self-esteem. So what happens is that the worst thing you can lose is not even your self-respect, it's to lose hope. Yes, because hope is a picture of a better future. Yes, but if you're in pain and my life was pain- yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I'm in pain. I'm talking about was pain. Yeah, so I'm in pain. I'm talking about emotional pain. Yeah, you're in physical pain. If you're in pain today, you were in pain the day before and all you see in the near future, let alone the far future. But the addict doesn't think about the far future. He doesn't.

Speaker 2:

Oh, really the time horizon is very short. All you're thinking about is that all I'm going to do is wake up to more pain. Yeah, and I would wake up or come to in the morning and I'm like darn that's not the word I'd use but darn, I'm me, yeah, and I hate me. And so I've done things. I've self-harm, I've tried to commit suicide and because I've lost hope, yeah, when you lose hope, you know, because all I am is doomed to pain so what's the way to keep hope and what's the way to like create hope?

Speaker 1:

because I feel like there's probably people listening right now who might be in a similar state. They might not be gone to prison and all those things, but they sit there sometimes like they might be in the same job for a long time and they're like, am I ever gonna make it out? Like, am I ever gonna do this? Because we have a lot of mental. I was, um. There's been a couple different podcasts where people have brought up the concept of like a mental prison, where it's like you're in this job for a long time and you don't know if you like the job or not and you want to figure out, like, what you're going to do with your life. So I'm saying that pursuit of hope, I think, is not just for anybody, it's for everybody. I think we're all interested in the pursuit okay, and so for you yeah, so for you, how did you find hope?

Speaker 1:

like, how did you, how do you think about hope on a regular basis and like, how do you keep that hope alive? Because it sounds like at that point you had very low hope and you're like to get out of that. You need to create hope. So how did you kind of think about that?

Speaker 2:

so the fundamental, the fundamental, all of this is one word pain. That the fundamental, all of this is one word Pain. That's the fundamental. It's pain, yeah, now, then we put these Coatings around it. We can call it shame, we can call it guilt, we can call it, you know, self-hatred, whatever, but underneath it is pain, and the fundamental feeling is fear. Yeah, fear is just the future, anticipation or expectation of pain. It's all theories, it's what you do. Is you anticipate or expect pain in the near future or far future? And that's fear.

Speaker 2:

Okay, my life was run with fear. Now, how it manifested itself was anger. Yeah, that's how it manifested itself, with anger at itself and others. Okay, so I'd wake up in fear. And what? So? What? What does that have to do with hope? What? Because you have so much fear, you have no hope. It's the antithesis of hope in a lot of ways. Is fear, because hope says I have the possibility of not having pain tomorrow? Yeah, I have like no fear. I literally, literally have no fear in my life. Or let's put it this way I put everything on a scale of one to 10.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And if I have a fear, it might hit a one, might hit a two, but when you live in a nine, whether you're in a bad relationship, whether you're in a situation on the streets or in the penitentiary or you have a situation you know in the corporate world, on the boardroom, where you have a tremendous amount of fear, that's up at the nine, but usually it's just. It gets up to a nine, eight or nine, 10, you're dead nine. You're in this abject fear, but it's only fleeting.

Speaker 2:

I'm going to deal with it in the boardroom. Or I'm going to go in here and talk to my boss. He's going to fire me or not, fire me whatever. Or I have fear because I need to talk to this employee and I need to let that employee go. Okay, because I anticipate it's going to be. It's going to be some pain involved emotionally for me. You know he's been a good employee but he hasn't shown up. You know, this is this third notion. Ok, great, we deal with that.

Speaker 2:

The difficulty is when you, when you live in that daily, and I mean daily. So there is a well-known story in my book and I've talked about it numerous times. But it's the pivot moment. Yeah, and what happened was on September 22nd 2004,. I woke up with the mustard seed of hope. That's all I had and the truth is in the book. But the truth is I, I called my mother and if my mother was not going to help me, I was going to kill myself. Period and just done. Yeah, because I'd already tried it once before. Um, well, twice before, and this time, anyway, it's gonna be over because I had died. I mean, I was dying physically, emotionally, spiritually, and when the spirit goes, it's gone, deflating it goes. But I had this little IO, so I call it up. She said, yes, kenneth, I'll get you a ticket to back to Seattle so you can go into this free treatment at the mission, so you can go into this free treatment at the mission.

Speaker 2:

I'm like great, I have no money. All I possess in my world is a pair of sneakers, no socks, pair of shorts, no underwear and a T-shirt. That's it. Those are my sole possessions in life. My jaw is broken because I've been broken twice that summer, and it's wired shut. Oh my God, scabs all over my face from peeing at my face. I have blisters on every finger of my hands from lighting lighters to smoke crack. My nose. Hairs are burned out because the lighter, because the crack pipes are so small. My lips are all blistered from hot crack pipes. Yeah, and this is your Dartmouth grad 2004.

Speaker 2:

So I get up and I go out to hustle. And when I mean hustle, I was a drug runner, so I would run drugs between a person looking for drugs and a person who's selling drugs. Yes, they don't have to have the heat at the police come, anyway. So I do a transaction. I get paid with a rock, one of the two times in my 20 years of smoking crack cocaine. I did not smoke it because I said I'll sell it and then I'll have some money for the bus because I have hope I can go to treatment. My mom just said be at the bus station, the ticket will be there. Because I was not allowed in her home because I had burglarized her home. Ok, my God, and I go out there to sell a ten dollar rock of crack cocaine and I sell it to the undercover.

Speaker 2:

And this is the part I want you to hear. Ok, they arrest me and we're waiting for the paddy wagon. They have literally a paddy wagon and I'm handcuffed. You know, behind the back, anybody who gets handcuffed in front, that's in the movies. You never get handcuffed. I've never. I've been handcuffed like 30 times. You never get handcuffed up front, you're always in the back.

Speaker 2:

But anyway, I'm leaning forward. Could you have me forward, could you? And I am crying profusely, but I'm smiling and the cop is worried because we're waiting for the paddy wagon and what they did is everybody. They pulled off the streets, were in this like holding area until the paddy wagon can take us to jail. And he's like are you all right? Because he sees all these tears, things hurt or something, and I say, yeah, I'm all right. And he's why are you crying? And I told him because I'm going to live, because I'm going to live Because I can do prison. I've been to prison twice. I get my little, you know, lifting on I play pinochle. I've been to prison twice I get my little, you know, lipton on I play pinochle. You know I do my sports. Oh my God, I want to live. So I'm smiling and I'm crying tears of relief.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

I have literally walked into the police station as an addict and asked them to arrest me. I know there's a warrant out. There was always a warrant out for my arrest. I'm the guy. Can you please arrest me, because I'm gonna die out there either, like out there was scarier than the actual jail oh yeah, 100. Oh yeah, people, people were looking for me oh, because you got in, got yourself.

Speaker 1:

Oh, because of all the challenging things and the bad thing.

Speaker 2:

This is stuff you do. You just you know I'd steal from drug dealers. That's not smart. I rip off people, for you know transactions, you know. So anyway, people would be looking for me and uh, but I can handle myself in prison how that works, so anyway. So the key thing is I I'm relieved, I have hope now, and that 2004 I've been sober ever since September 22nd. Wow, coming up on 21 years, and this is important I go to prison and I said to myself these exact words. I said, if I am the same person coming out of prison because I knew I was going to do a few years as I am going in I'm going to have the same results. And I said I need to work on the mental, the physical, the emotional and the spiritual. And I worked on and I mean worked on that.

Speaker 1:

I love it. It's so important because you start to realize that you're in control of everything. You're in control of your life, when you start to take inventory of where you're at mentally, where you're at physically. Community service, wise philanthropy, spirituality and relationships like those are the five pillars of edwards consulting, and it's so important for us to realize that once you're taking inventory and you're seeing what works.

Speaker 1:

So, like, what I think would be kind of interesting right now would be like, mentally, where were you at that time? And then, when you left, what was the major differences, like what were the big takeaways mentally? And then we'll go to physical health community service, okay.

Speaker 2:

So and I think we might be mixing up a little bit and I'll explain why, or at least how I define it. That's one of the things a lot I do, a lot of mentoring, and we're always talking about definitions. Let's define course. So mental is intellectual yes emotional is emotional.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so when I say I need to work on myself mentally, I mean intellectually. My brain had atrophied, literally the use my vocabulary was about a hundred words, of which probably 20% were profanity. Okay, that's my vocabulary. On the streets, we have to talk about antithesis and antipodes? Okay, we don't, we don't. So I started reading and I ended up reading one year, over a hundred books. Wow, I only read nonfiction. So I started writing every single book I've read since the day I went down in 2004. And just last year I just did my 1000th book. 1000 books, wow, of which 99% are nonfiction. That's what I'm. I'm a nonfiction guy, okay.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

So, but in prison I had to do some fiction, so a lot of Dean Kuntz, but I read fiction. So a lot of dean kunz because I did, but I read and then I did a lot of writing because what my I don't even want to call it a hustle what I did is I wrote letters for illiterate black men. That's what I did. That was one of the things that I in prison yeah, there's a lot of illiterate, especially older black men. They can't read or write, really for the reasons why they're in prison. Okay, yeah, and they wanted to. You know talk, you know write to the pastor, their girlfriend, their wives, and they knew that you know I'd gone to college and everything, so I would write their letter.

Speaker 1:

They would just talk to me, write it out, for okay, it's beautiful so that and it was, and I did a lot of them for free and then other ones they pay in stamps, okay because there's a lot of that, because the reason I say that is that you can find community service wherever, yeah, you find the ability to give back to someone at any point. And for someone to be in prison most of the time like for me, who I've never, uh, been to prison so I sit there and I think, oh my god, it's a scary place, everyone's so mean, everything's this, but you can still find ways to get back to people.

Speaker 2:

First of all, everybody's not mean number one. So prison depending and it also depends on what prison you're in I'm not going to go into because I can go into a long discourse on prison. But prison is, you know, based on levels and you'll go anywhere from minimum, medium, max, super max, anywhere from minimum, medium, max, super max. And but the key thing is is is learning the rules of prison. Yeah, it's a community and there's rules in the boardroom, there's rules in the corporate room, there's rules in the coaching world, there's rules in the speaking world, but there's rules and if you play by the rules, you'll probably do it right, okay, okay, okay. So that's number, and 90% of the guys maybe not that high, 85% of them are just, you know got caught up. Remember a lot of my alcoholics and drug addicts and got caught up in it. All right, guys, I mean a lot of good, I mean some of the best guys I've ever met. Yeah, but again, we're not on the influence of the drugs. I've met some wonderful guys in prison who are dead now because they got out and went back to the life. Oh, wow, prison, they're great. I lost, I was down for almost three years. I lost 23 people dead in that time that I knew from the streets or in the penitentiary 23. Wow, dead. I got them written down in one of my journals. Wow. But again, that's the byproduct For a lot of, lot of death was a relief, yeah, and that's why you know the suicide. Some committed suicide or most died from their addiction or alcoholism or were killed. Yeah, so we go from there. So we talked about the intellectual. So we go from there now. So we talked about the intellectual, the. I call that the mental. The key one for me, or one of the keys, was the emotional. Yeah, was the emotional. The physical was going to come back. I lift weights, that's what I do. I play sports did very well, yeah, doing that. But the key for me was the emotional, because what I did, one of my difficulties in how I had a relationship with self I love that you use the word relationship and what I always tell people I used to have an adversarial relationship with self. Yeah, I literally would fight me, I hated me, and one of the reasons is because I was shame-based, and what that means is because of some of my behavior on the streets, predominantly the prostitution. I was shame-based. I am less than Because on the streets it's pretty much the lowest thing you can do is be a male prostitute or to turn tricks to feed your addiction. And I'm out there doing that regularly. And so when I came in, that was my secret and there were people who knew, especially some of the girls on the street. They knew, but it was my secret. I didn't want to be known on the streets or in prison, yeah, and so I went to counseling and I remember telling the first, my counselor, and and taking away that power of the secret. Yeah, and then I told in a small group and I told in a larger group.

Speaker 1:

Now I tell in front of hundreds of people and put it in my book but that's, that's such a freeing thing because we sit there and we think our secrets are. So it's funny. Uh, I did a coaching call the other day and the guy's like I've literally never said this to anyone and he shares it with me and the difference is it's very profound to the person. It's a big feeling to the person releasing it, but to the receiver, they're just grateful that you want to share. I mean, if you're in the room of the right people, no one's going to judge you and be like what a terrible. Like obviously there's some activities where you're like, oh, that's not great. But you sit there and you start to realize that the more you can be your authentic self, the better you're going to show up in the world.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, but you don't. I just want to make sure people understand. You don't have to get in front of hundreds of people like I do. I'd say from the stage yeah, you don't need to do that. All I'm saying is take away, and there are people you can't trust.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely.

Speaker 2:

You know you have a trusted advisor, you have a counselor. They're paid, they're under legal obligation to remain that seeker, unless it's in a specific area of child and children, okay, but you got to take away that power, that that secret. At least that's been my, let me put it this way I say a lot of things and I make it seem like it's like everyone. I'm telling you my story and I'm telling you what worked for me. You know, compendium of experience that brought me to this point where I did this and it gave me this result. And I'm talking about positive things now. So the key thing is I dealt with that emotional but didn't mean that I was cured and it didn't mean that. You know ever since that. You know, speaking with the counselor and talking to small groups, large groups, I haven't had setbacks or problems, because I definitely had some. Especially well, yeah, definitely in my first three or four years of getting out of the penitentiary because it's not nothing, I talk about a lot I had scripts in my head.

Speaker 1:

The stories you tell ourselves.

Speaker 2:

And I have to play out those scripts because I know the script and I know my place in the script and I got to hit my mark on the stage and that mark might be me hurting you, but that's, that's in the script. You didn't know that was in the script. You should have known it was in the script because you called me that word.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Because you called me that word. Where I'm from, we all know the script. I'll use one word. There's three words that you can use with me. One starts with an N, one starts with a, b and the other one I can say is punk. You can't call someone in the penitentiary a punk, okay. Or on the streets. These are the communities that I revolved around, because it's a code word, and what that code word is, very simply, is that you are weak. Therefore, you're either going to fight me or you're going to give me your possessions, your commissary, you'll clean my cell or you'll provide services to me. That's what that means, and so I have a script. So when I get out of prison and I'm clean and sober for six years, somebody calls me a B. They didn't know that play, they're in a different world, but you know we're, I'm writing.

Speaker 2:

So my next book Is on respect and disrespect. I'm writing with a wonderful gentleman named Dr Will Moreland, and. But we talk about that in the boardroom, we talk about that in the corporate room. We talk about that in the family. You, I, family, I don't know your background, but we had a thing you always respected your grandmother. We call respecting your elders. Why, and what does that mean?

Speaker 2:

Respect is acknowledgement of a person's position or significance within a community. The significance of your grandmother is she gave birth to your mother or your father, which then adopted you or gave birth to you or brought you into this world. She has survived 60, 70, 80 years, raising probably in a much tougher environment. Yeah, so we're going to environment. Yeah, so we're going to give her we're going to acknowledge her position absolutely the matriarch of this family. That's what that means. I didn't use the family. I can use them to corporate, I can use it on the streets, I can use it in the penitentiary and tell you what respect and disrespect is. We're writing a whole book on it. It's going to be phenomenal.

Speaker 1:

I'm looking forward to it. But it's important for us to realize that words have limitations, and without having true definitions here, then we don't know what certain words mean. So I appreciate you breaking that down.

Speaker 2:

Words. That's interesting. Words have limitations, so what are words? So I go to the basic. Words are vibration of your vocal cords. Yeah, if I called you a punk in um, in brazil jungle, in a yano mano tribe, you'd look at me like has no meaning.

Speaker 1:

I don't get what what is that?

Speaker 2:

you know, what you know. You see, I'm saying it's always situational to a community yes and in these communities. So we call punk music. Yeah, you call punk music, okay.

Speaker 1:

Johnny.

Speaker 2:

Linden sucks pistols. I got you the Clash. I'm cool with that, okay. Post-punk, you know Gang of Four, you know Bush, tetras, whatever. I'm understanding of that. But in these communities these are words that are trigger words and what they mean again is instantaneously that individual that's a part of the community reacts. We don't act. We react because we already know what the script is, because we've been trained that this is a script. Okay. So anyway, I had to. It took me two years of work to undo the scripts the undo, the scripts, and now those words have no power.

Speaker 2:

I love that. No power. The only thing and I've said this a few times the only thing is you can't threaten my family. That's the only thing. Can't threaten my family, other than that, you can call me anything you want that'd be. That is like because we're home and my audi to my half million dollar home. Six bedroom home in ecuador on the beach yeah my beautiful wife and my grandchildren. You know, my life is beautiful, so, and I I might even just ask why? Why would you? Why you want to call me that?

Speaker 1:

so that's, that's a big jump, going from the attack mode to the discovery of like are you okay? From the other side asking them kind of what was this? Are you okay? And for you, ken, what was the biggest thing that allowed you to become this new version of yourself? Obviously, we've gotten the mental, the emotional.

Speaker 2:

God, okay, tell us a little bit. Yeah, god is one and you know. It's like you work on the spiritual side and talk with God, and I believe in God. I pray often Not every day to be honest with you. Yeah, I pray often Not every day to be honest with you, yeah, but I pray often and I allow spiritual information to come in. I do pray every day. I pray every meal.

Speaker 1:

Do you do? Are you following some church or one of the, or is it just your own thing? Because the reason I say that is because when I talk spirituality with a lot of people, some people are like spiritualness is when we go to the coffee store and you say hi to everyone there and that's spiritual. Some people are like spiritual is when you talk to god. Some people's like you have to be at church, some people. So everyone's got their own definition. So I was just curious for you what you meant I go to church regularly.

Speaker 2:

My wife goes pretty much every weekend. She's Episcopalian, okay, and you know I see God in the church there, but I don't. I'm not a church person.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I learned very early on I needed an outside entity that would modify my behavior. This is something I'm really big on. In the end, it's about the action. Yes, I don't care what you think, I don't care what you feel, but what I care about is what you do. What I did got me in prison. It's not what I felt, because if it was what I thought, man, I'd still be in prison for the rest of my life. Okay, and like you said, some people still are in prison. There's no bars around themselves. They're in prison by their emotions.

Speaker 1:

Okay, 100%.

Speaker 2:

Man, there's so much we could talk about Forgiveness. How do I change? Or we can just talk about resentment.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Sincere to feel, to refill Past negative emotion. Okay, my dad Shot my mom six times, Shot her and then was coming over to shoot me at my job. Went and shot her at her job. Was coming over to shoot me at my job. Went and shot her at her job. It was coming over to shoot me. The gun jammed, threw it out the window, went home and passed out was this this, your dogs and parents, yeah, yeah 1986.

Speaker 2:

I've been out of college for about two years before I relapsed, but that's not why I relapsed. I I told you why I relapsed.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Probably didn't help, but because I had a lot of guilt. A lot of guilt, yeah, but I had a lot of anger towards him and until I can let go of that anger of people that have hurt me and I, I have oh I have no resentment towards anyone, no single human being in this world and then I also had to forgive me.

Speaker 1:

But me didn't come first.

Speaker 2:

I always wanted to say that to people. I gotta learn how to forgive myself. You probably need to learn how to forgive others. I need to make amends to myself. You need to make amends to those people who are innocent that you've hurt. Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

And then I take care. Again, one of the key components of my journey is this I'm not first, I'm not first, I'm not first. That was one of the hardest things. One of the hallmarks of addiction, alcoholism or negative is self. It's all about me. It's all about me Self-pity, self-pity, self-hatred, self, you know whatever? Yeah, all about me and I had to get away it being all about me. That's one of the things that's great about spiritual.

Speaker 2:

So what I do is find a god, and there are things that I do because I ask God what's the right thing to do? Not the thing that's going to do, because a lot of times we make decisions based on two things what is going to bring me pleasure, what is not going to cause me pain? But again, it's about self. Well, I do things that cause me discomfort because of the right thing to do. There's a thing that's best for my wife or my family. I'm dealing with stuff right now. Yeah, that's not what I want to do, it's not going to give me the most pleasure or limit my pain, but it's the right thing to do. Well, I go to God to find that out, and then I have what is called a vertical alignment. It helps me there too.

Speaker 1:

What's the vertical alignment?

Speaker 2:

Vertical alignment is when you make decisions. What's the hierarchy? It's like a hierarchy of knees, maslow, but it's a hierarchy of decision so in a vertical alignment, number one is god, so you run it by god. Number two by far is my life period period, and then there's a space to the kids and grandkids and what do you think you think that helps the relationship? 100.

Speaker 1:

I asked that just because.

Speaker 2:

I knew Look at my eyes. Does it help the relationship? No, of course, if you put your wife first.

Speaker 1:

No, I asked that because I know a lot of people have kids and more coming from my generation where I just got married last year and there's a lot of people who put their they have a kid and now it's the parents are like how can we be parents? But then they also forget about the dating and I feel like it's a real cultural thing where people are forgetting about their partnerships.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'll be real frank, because I've been. I've known about this for 30 years, since the 90s, when we were taught it, and it mainly happens with women, with wives. They put the children in front of their husbands. Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I'm just being real frank. And people are. It's the society? No, no, I know that's the perspective.

Speaker 2:

I'm talking about. See, this is the beautiful thing about where I'm at today. I don't care if you like me. I would hope you would like people, but I don't need your affirmation of my worth.

Speaker 1:

I know what's worth.

Speaker 2:

You may not agree with everything I say, but I'm going to stay the truth.

Speaker 1:

Yes.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and I'm not not gonna be wishy-washy about it, and um, very rarely am I going to keep it inside and not express my opinion because, again, I used to want everybody to like me, so I on a different mask or a different face.

Speaker 1:

Satisfy people.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, what community I'm in. And now I don't, other than if I go to an NA meeting. I may use a few different words.

Speaker 1:

Some of the terminology. Yeah yeah, it relates a lot better.

Speaker 2:

I used to go in and talk to the two youth offenders. Ok, and I'm talking about level one youth offenders. To be a level one youth offender at least in Alaska, you had to either murder or rape someone. Oh wow, go in there and talk to you.

Speaker 2:

And're like 13, 14, 15, 30 oh my god prison and I would come in there and they would look at me and they're like square square, and I would you know, because I brought in here to talk to him, I said hey, let me, let me talk to you. And then I would talk to them at a level that would resonate. You would see people pipe up because I got some stories and I have some language because I can use.

Speaker 1:

I ask them is there any language? I've seen you have a variation of up down. All right, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2:

So, again, you, you, you speak to the community because, again, what is my desired result? You speak to the community because, again, what is my desired result? Yeah, my desired result is to have one kid hear me out of the 17 that are in that unit, because when I come in 17 of them, he's a square. Okay, I start talking five minutes. Ten of them are like listening, and then another, and in the end there's always two or three, because they're so invested in either being cool or they're so angry and they're so broken that's the term I love to use is broken because I was broken, yeah, for a lot of years. To use is broken because I was broken, yeah, for a lot of years. And now I've been put back together and I've been mended.

Speaker 1:

I love it. I love it. So how did you start this becoming Ken writing? How did you start the business? Because when I sit there and think about it, I look at all these. You had exchanged so many, many values. You would have changed the value base so many times for yourself to figure out, like, what's the important thing, what's the right thing, how do we think about this? And obviously you gave us some of the tips and tricks, but, like, what was it for you that really allowed you to kind of step into this different area? Because there's people who are probably sitting in the area of right, where you're right, when you get out of prison, and they're like I don't even know what to do with my life, and I just view that as, like every person who's 21, at their first job, they're like I don't know what I'm doing, like so there's a lot of people here can can really get a lot of value from this so a couple things.

Speaker 2:

Number one I grew up with a phenomenal example, through my mother, irene miller and I mean phenomenal example of a beautiful person, and I'm talking about inside and outside.

Speaker 2:

My mom was, was beautiful yeah and so I knew what the correct behavior was Okay. And then I went into the drugs and the alcohol and it released or allowed to come up to the surface some of the maybe some of the traits I picked up from my father, who was a violent alcoholic, self-pitying by alcohol, all right. So I had that. Plus I had other examples. So when I get out of prison, I had the three years I did three on the last bit and when I got out I still to this day, I still struggle with this, not struggle with it. But I think back and I'm like kidding.

Speaker 2:

I got out, I'm supposed to go to the halfway house, or what they call a three quarter way house. I'm on paper, which means I'm on parole, and I'm supposed to show up within a half hour and it took me two, two and a half hours to get there. Why did it take you so long? Because I sat on the corner, or I stood on the corner of 2nd and Washington in Reno, nevada, outside the Calneva Casino, deciding which road I was going to go down. After three years, all this work, because the first two times I got out I'm on paper and I walked down the 4th and Lake and went right back into the mix. Really Now, remember, I'm getting let off three blocks from where I got arrested.

Speaker 2:

I'm right in the same hood or area you know exactly where the place is you've been there a million times yeah but you know, three years later, and, and, and I'm struggling. I'm struggling, yeah, because I had already done some things that even to this day I'm not. I'd used someone and so I get out of penitentiary and I took advantage of someone, their trust and this was me with three years, you know, I still got that prison mentality, that hustler mentality.

Speaker 2:

Anyway, took me two and a half hours. I went down there they were mad because I was late and then I probably made the best decision in early recovery, outside of the penitentiary, other than getting to the halfway house, I called up a gentleman who said he would sponsor me in the anonymous program. Yeah, he said I'll come pick you up, they know me. I'll come pick you up. And he took me to supers and I got a double bacon cheeseburger, cause there's no bacon in the penitentiary.

Speaker 1:

Oh, okay, so it's been three years I tasted bacon, okay.

Speaker 2:

bacon in the penitentiary, oh, okay. So it's been three years. I tasted bacon, okay, and um, I made a decision, another tough one. So we, we sit down to work the steps. He said you want to work the steps? I said, yeah, I'm ready. I'm I'm young, I've already worked them in the penit ready, I'm working with you and we're going to do this. He looked me in the eye and said no relationships for a year. All I heard was no sex for a year. I got my jailhouse sweat on. I look good, I smell good, I talk good. You tell me I can't get with a woman. That's what I heard. He said no relation, but that's what he meant, because he knew I needed to work on him. And I looked at him for about it may only have been 30 seconds, but it felt like five minutes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

The brain is trying to no pleasure. Okay, this can be painful. This company and I looked at him. I said, okay, let's do it, let's do it, and that was super important. I love telling that story because this is with three years, so I get cleaned up on the streets and go through a couple of situations on the streets and go through a couple situations, but this is so. When I got into business, I became a development director for Soup Kitchen, which is a fundraiser, and did very well. Why did you do so well? As I told people, I've been in sales my whole adult life, legal and illegal, but I've sold it Absolutely, absolutely and I'm good. Yeah, this is going to sound crazy. In my estimation, I was the best panhandler in all of Reno. Hands down, I had the results.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know who my target market was you understood all the concepts I understood, I understood, I understood who to ask, I understood how to ask them yeah how to ask them.

Speaker 2:

You know the best way to ask somebody what's the best way and it's a look for a uh, 20 year old white male, college or in their 20s, and say, hey, hey, partner, can I get a couple dollars for a beer? Tell me exactly what? You? How do I get a beer? Now, what I would do is get that a bunch of times, or they'd give me a five or ten and it was really going to crack cocaine.

Speaker 1:

I didn't say crack because they went to relate, at least you're honest about it, I'm hungry. I mean this makes a lot more sense. I walked down the street around me and everyone's like a beer Because I do look a little. Yeah, no, I get it. It makes sense.

Speaker 2:

And college kids. They were always the best they drank in twos.

Speaker 2:

So, anyway, I did that. And then and it was this was a tough one, cause it took me six months to go out on my own, cause I was fear-based. Of course, you're making 80,000 a year, yeah. All of a sudden somebody says, hey, why don't you become a consultant? So I did. April Fool's day, 2014,. Started Denali FSP, which is, 11 years later, is running as a million dollar company. We do consulting, coaching and write grants, predominantly for tribal organizations. And then, after that, I started speaking, and that's Ken Miller speaks dot com. Then I started writing books, which is becoming Ken book dot com. I started a company that works in AI. I have offshore virtual assistants in Ecuador and in the Philippines that are trained in artificial intelligence and in the philippines that are trained in artificial intelligence, and then I have property in ecuador, so I have five different businesses and it's a lot, but, um, that's what you need sometimes.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's the good stuff I'm saying that's what's needed. Sometimes people don't realize they're doing a lot in the other direction because at the same time you were doing a lot before, but it was just very survival based and now this is very creation based. You know what I mean. It's helping people, it's changing lives, it's impacting people and you fills your up your cup and fills up other people's cups.

Speaker 2:

So I just think it's really important it is and I you know, and then you know I do things on the side. And when I say on the side, my passion outside of god and my wife or you'll say slash family is mentoring young black men. I've been doing that for 15 years because I know what it's like not to have a black male role model yes, or a good one, we got them. If our role model is the thug or the pimp or the drug dealer, that's not a good direction. That's a death model.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Okay, and so I do that at one time. At one point. I had 52 volunteer commitments last summer. This time last summer I mentor 10 men. I do a black men's book study. We meet every two weeks on that one and I you know, obviously you know do the stuff with the family, which is a big one for me, and then anytime people want to call and then I write books. You know I've been writing. I got three more books this year.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and you've got a lot going on, but it's all positive. It is year, okay, you got a lot going on, but it's it's all positive. And I think that's important because people don't realize that, like, it's okay to do a lot, it's okay to have a big impact, it's okay to be impactful and the I know we're kind of winding down. But the final one, towards the end, is what I'm curious about is, like, what caused you to realize that, like you were able to do more? You know what I mean. Most of us have this constraint mentality, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2:

Like this is. That's an interesting question. I'm going to tell you why. One of the biggest things and I want especially all people in in the business world to hear this One of the most difficult things for me was to say no.

Speaker 2:

How did you end up with 52 volunteer commitments? I was on 23 boards and I had 29 men that I had scheduled, that I met with Because I wouldn't say no. And so the reason I bring this up it was so hard in the beginning that I went through withdrawals because I felt I had let people down. Yeah, but when I went to get off boards to submit my resignation, people who knew me were so happy for me because I explained why and they don't know I'm on the 22 other boards, committees, subcommittees, task forces and ad hoc groups and they don't know I got I'm on the 22 other boards, committees, subcommittees, task forces and ad hoc groups. They don't know that that I'm volunteering or leading, and they were like because they knew it would open up for me to do other things and the other things I've been able to write.

Speaker 2:

this book book came out yeah took me three years yeah why did it take you so long? Those different reasons, but three years. I might have a book done by august 31st yeah but my next book is gonna take me two months I expect to write a book in less than a week really I'm. My goal is to write a book in two days. I'm talking about 100 pages at least in two days oh, my, my God.

Speaker 2:

So let's just go back. So the key, I believe, in the end, in the end it's still selfish. In the end it is selfish. I want to feel good, but predominantly I want to feel good about 10. I want to become 10.

Speaker 1:

That's who I am today.

Speaker 2:

This is what I tell people. What's my tagline? I am a kind and gentle man. That's who I am. I'm a kind and gentle man. I give, I give and I give. I'm cool with that. That's cool. Money time, listening to people being empathetic for free Do all this for free. I do a lot. Okay, in the end it probably is. You could say it's for selfish reasons. I want to feel good about Ken. I know what it's like to not like Ken and I want to like me and so I do a lot of likable things today and the byproduct is I help a lot of people.

Speaker 2:

That's the byproduct. But in the end I have to feel comfortable with me. I have a finite amount of time on this and I think I got maybe 20 years left. Okay, I got maybe 20 years left, okay. Yeah, black men don't live that long, okay. My father died at 56. All of my uncles I'm talking about on the biological side died before they were 56. My dad, out of five, he was the one that lived the longest. Almost all of them died in their forties. One was hurt, okay, but it just. I just know that and you know I want my dash to mean something.

Speaker 2:

Yes, what's my legacy on a tombstone? You got a birth date, you got a death date and in between is a dash. What does that dash represent? And I got a book, you. But I mean, I just want to hope that I've touched people in a positive way, because I know I've touched people in a negative way and my fervent desire is that they're beyond that. And this is just now a memory, maybe not a positive one, but just a memory, and they don't hold that. I made amends to everybody. I could find I made amends to everybody. I could find I've made amends to everyone that I was legally allowed to make amends to, because there's victims I can't legally communicate with them. Cool, I'm cool with that. I've made amends internally, knowing what that situation is, and I've said amends, you know, to a spirit and a spiritual.

Speaker 1:

But yeah, it's so important for us to realize that and I think your frame, where it's what's my legacy? Where am I looking? Where can I give back? Where can I help? People are so focused on them and they're not so focused on that. We're all together in this and I think that's. I think that's awesome. Where can you? Let me say one more.

Speaker 2:

Thing on this.

Speaker 2:

I'm thinking about it before I say it. I'm extraordinary. I'm extraordinary, I'm extraordinary, I am unique, I'm a child of God and I have value, and each and every person listening to this is extraordinary. Yes, you are unique, you have value. I've done this. I'm going to do it again. If you want to communicate with me, kenmiller84, linkedin or Ken at DenaliFSPcom and I answer, I answer, I'll answer you. I don't care who you are Good, bad or indifferent. If this has resonated with you, reach out, reach out to Jordan. I listen to a lot of podcasts and a lot of stuff on YouTube and I've heard some extraordinary things that have resonated, vibrated, resonated with me in a positive way, and if it's negative, I usually don't change the channel. I don't need negative.

Speaker 1:

I just don't need it Absolutely. Ken, you're awesome. Thank you so much. Man Really appreciate it. Thank you.

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Jordan Edwards

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