The Digital Project Manager

Should You Care If Your Project Manager Is Certified?

• Galen Low

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 40:05

Project management certifications have become the industry’s favorite shorthand for competence—but what are they actually signaling? In this candid panel, Galen Low sits down with Crystal Richards, Dave Prior, and Karthick Nivas Ramdoss to unpack what certifications do (and just as importantly, what they don’t). From PMP to CSM to emerging AI-focused credentials like CPMAI, the conversation cuts through the alphabet soup and gets to the real question: are we hiring for capability, or just filtering for compliance?

What emerges is a more uncomfortable truth. Certifications can open doors, create shared language, and signal commitment—but they’re also being misused as blunt instruments in hiring systems that are already overwhelmed. The result? Talented people get filtered out, hiring managers get false confidence, and organizations end up chasing “unicorn” candidates that don’t exist. This episode is a reality check—and a practical guide—for anyone trying to make smarter decisions about project talent.

Resources from this episode:

Welcome And Panel Introductions

SPEAKER_02

Hey folks, welcome to our session on whether or not it should matter to you that your project managers are certified, and if it does, which ones actually make a difference for your projects? We do events like this once every month or so as a way to engage directly with the experts who contribute and collaborate with us here at the Digital Project Manager. For those of you who don't know me, my name is Galen Lowe. I'm the co-founder of the Digital Project Manager, and I've also got with me an all-star panel of PM certification specialists, Crystal Richards from MindSpark, Dave Pryor from the Agile Network, and Karthik Nevis Ramdos from the Project Management Institute. Let's dive in. Today's session is all about decoding various project management certifications and seeing how they stack up in different scenarios so that you can make good decisions when adding project professionals to your team. Let's go and meet our panelists. So, first up is Crystal Richards, principal and founder of MindSpark, and one of the most fun and incredibly well-respected project management trainers in the business, tackling everything from PMP exam prep boot camps to monthly playdate sessions that keep PMs up to speed on the latest skills. Crystal, you were running full steam ahead on the upcoming second edition of your book, PMP Exam Prep for Dummies, when you were hit by an email spoofing attack. Do you think that the hackers were maybe after an early copy of your manuscript so that they could pass the new PMP exam in July?

SPEAKER_00

I believe so. They left me a ransom note. No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_02

They cut all the letters out of the magazine.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I'm just like, what is your end game? I mean, it was just insane. It was, you know. Write the test. I mean, it was so mind-boggling. I'll just say I was ending a call. I'm a member with a local chapter of PMI Project Management Institute, and we were ending our call, and all of a sudden I see all these bounce back emails with the same subject line. And I got an IT consultant, and I'm like on the phone screaming like a howler monkey. Like so, and then I looked at my risk management plan that you know that we all follow. So yeah, no, you know, that's just their way of getting to the most, you know, it just takes that one, right? And, you know, all the things that we learn in our corporate classes, the things that we talk about from a risk management. And this is where real life hit me smack dab in the face.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, in terms of crisis management and just turning it into a teachable moment, like you handled it very well. Who can I pick on next? Maybe I'll pick on Dave. So Dave Fryer, Chief Experience Officer at the Agile Network and man who has every letter of the alphabet after his name on LinkedIn. Dave, a little bird told me that ever since the release of your book, No One is Coming to Save You, the power-ups to help surf the chaos that you co-authored with Stuart Young. Like your in-person Scrum Master and PMP training sessions have been gaining popularity. Is there an increased demand for in-person Scrum Master and PM training these days? Or have people just found out how much fun it is to be in the same room as you?

SPEAKER_01

I think it is picking back up. It took a nosedive at the end of the pandemic, but I mean, the past two months, I think things have been picking up. You know, obviously because they're reading the book, which everyone should buy, available on Amazon, Rowleen Pub. No, training got hit hard, but it's been coming back, certification's coming back, and I'm hoping that that's a sign that it's going to continue in the future.

SPEAKER_02

I really like that idea of power-ups when you explained it to me when we were together last year. Like kind of like the soft skill stuff as well. Is that part of what you're training on now?

SPEAKER_01

Or is it kind of like it is in the in the scrum master classes? To me, that whole job is about social engineering. So, and your job is to be of service. So everything about that is all I mean, it's the process stuff is simple. Understanding how to figure out people who are constantly changing and how to figure yourself out is the hardest part. And the most fun part, I think. Boom.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. And I hope we dig into that throughout this as well. I wasn't as fiery as Crystal, but I'll pick it up next time. I love it. I love it. And of course, last but not least is Karthik Nevis Roundos. Strategy manager at the Project Management Institute. Karthik, I was interested in this. Before you got your CPM AI certification, you actually co-authored an early PMI playbook for projects that involve AI, data science, and machine learning. I thought I'd ask you, what is something about working on AI projects that has actually stood the test of time between when you wrote that and now?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, thanks for that question, Galen. And uh glad to be here. And in uh the midst of some eminent panelists who have a book that they have written. I've not written a book yet, but at least I have that playbook maybe. So, yeah, about that. So, what is through the uh test of time, I would say AI projects have continued to be like data dependent, and you know, we know that they are unique. So, I think what is through the test of time, which we actually discovered in that playbook, was you know, majority of organizations are in need of some frameworks that they would need to tailor to their project. In fact, uh 76% of those uh organizations, like we had interviewed over 25, and they we found that they are using their own form of framework to for AI projects. So I think that appreciation has stood the test of time, right? And uh, what has, however, changed though, to add on to what I just said, as the AI spend has increased dramatically, right? Like generative AI came in between. So that playbook was written before Gen AI. And now you see like there is even more inflated expectations, and there is even more need for discipline to turn that spend that like hundreds of billions of dollars into actual value. So and we want more, you know, project professionals to play a role in that to drive that value. I love that.

SPEAKER_02

Like the the tools and the methods and the mindset are the same, but now we're like moving at the speed of light. Like everything is is is it's changing by virtue of the pace of technology. Absolutely, yeah. That's why I love that. Thank you all for joining us uh today. I'm super excited. What a great panel. I'm biased, but this is gonna be great. I thought maybe what I could do is just tee this up a little bit. So the way I see it is that project management is an industry that is chalk full of certifications. There's so many. And a lot of the time it's for really good reasons. As an example, you know, high visibility projects in regulated industries that require very clear accountability and international team collaboration, like that's a no-brainer. But for hiring managers in other industries, I feel like certification shouldn't just be that like cover your butt insurance policy when you're hiring new talent. It should mean something on the job as well. But the trouble is when you're wading through that like alphabet soup that is PM certifications, it's not always clear what to ask for to make that a reality. So what we're gonna do today is we're going to unpack the certification question. We're gonna decode some of the most popular PM certifications and get you all the insights you need to make great decisions that give your projects wings whether your PMs are certified or not. See what I did there? All right. I thought I'd dive in and like, you know, maybe we can start from way back. I thought maybe I'd just get from each of you your take on like what does it mean to have a certification, but also like what does it not mean? Crystal, can I pick on you for that one?

What Certification Proves And Fails

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I think it helps to kind of give context. So for when I got the certification, it meant I was gonna be listed as key personnel on a government contract. Like that was what my boss said. You need to get your PMP. And I said, What's that? And are you gonna pay for it? And he's like, It's this, you need it. I'm gonna put you as key personnel on this government federal, you know, US federal government contract. And yes, I'm gonna pay for it. And I'm only gonna pay for the exam once. So you need to make it count. I'm like, okay. And being in, you know, he paid for the boot camp class. He's like, you just gotta go through a boot camp. And I'll I'll never forget. Well, maybe I shouldn't say this. I'll save it for later. But let's just say he there's reality and then there's planet PMI. We'll just say wow.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. The spice comes out.

SPEAKER_00

It yes, yes, he did. I'll say it later. I'll I'll wait until we get a little bit more spicy. But you know, through the training, I'm like, I kind of like this stuff. Well, at first I the first 10 minutes, I'm like, this is really cool. We don't do any of this stuff in our projects. And, you know, those of us who were, you know, newish, we were like, we take it as we need to take it. And others who were OGs were like, angry, like this isn't how you do it. Where I see the certification being valuable is that if it's if it's requested, if it's required, and that is what you need for the job, then yes, it makes sense. Where I see it being a little controversial, I'll say, is oh, if I get it, then I'll automatically get a job. And a lot of folks have fallen into that trap. So I'll stop and hot potato it to my colleagues on the panel. Did I answer the question? I think so.

SPEAKER_02

I think you did. And I do want to unpack that later because like there is this sort of like, you know, some might say a box ticking exercise, but fundamentally it's about accountability for a government contract, not necessarily, oh, this is the way I run projects, but it's like you've got a number next to your name that I can go after and have you, you know, quote unquote, disbarred if you kind of go against the code of ethics. Exactly. That's really interesting. Karthik, I wonder if uh if I can get your take on it as well.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely. And I uh love what uh Crystal mentioned and in terms of how it opened up an opportunity in the government contracting space. So I would just talk about how it opened up opportunities for me. So with the PMP, which I did back in 2020, I was in a situation where I was moving from an individual contributor to managing a team, right? So I wanted to get that common language that I can speak that not only gets me to guide my team better, but also now start speaking to stakeholders, right? So you're now more in a more elevated capacity, and then you want to be able to drive outcomes and you know what the language you need to speak to your senior stakeholders and the executive audience. So that was what I was looking for, and definitely uh looking to formalize my experience as well. So I had been involved in several projects until that point, but I wanted to also showcase uh my credibility and expand my knowledge a bit. So that was part of there. The other piece, which kind of unintentionally happened in the back of it, is that I relocated from India to the UK and then to the US. And I did not, you know, think of it to happen that way. But uh having the PMP gave me a global credibility, you know, just given our community across the you know globe. So that was uh some of it. And then beyond the PMP, I did my CPM AI like last year, and uh I figured it would be an important thing to do in my journey because I was the program manager for AI initiatives at PMI in 2024. And about a year into that, I felt like I should you know further uh build on my uh awareness and uh you know the AI just changing at the speed of light, you're always you know trying to catch up on it. So uh CPF AI, uh which I'll you know talk about later in the uh you know in this podcast, was something that helped me build my you know maturity in that in a very disciplined way and a structured way. So I think that kind of really helps. So if I were a hiring manager, which is I I think that's the target audience for the school, right? So I believe that by having that common language in your team, you can actually unlock uh value faster and help your team be more productive, right? So you're kind of driving like them into better onboarding and uh things of that nature. The other piece, which I would say, is kind of like we talk about future proofing, the project profession and all of that. I would say in a way, it kind of future proofs your project as well because the world is rapidly evolving, various ways of working, and you need a project team who is like at the cutting edge, aware of all the ways of working and able to deploy that at a moment's notice. So I think that those are kind of benefits I would say.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. I love the sort of shared language and international recognition, like those go hand in hand when you have to be able to like, you know, get on the same page quickly and like run fast together. Exactly. Yeah. So love that. Dave, what are your thoughts? What does it mean to be certified? What does it not mean?

SPEAKER_01

So I pursued PMP certification a really long time ago. It was like 2002, and that was because I was trying to learn more about what I had decided I was going to do professionally. And and I think with the exception of my CSM, every cert that I have, it was me chasing stuff I was interested in. Like I'm going for CPM AI now, I'm going for another AI certification from IC Agile at the same time. And that is I'm trying to deepen my knowledge, right? The only one that didn't happen that way was CSM. And that was because one of my developers forced me to go take the class with them because I decided I needed to be fixed. Um, but that's like for me, that's some people take it just to get the cert, and like, I don't care. If somebody shows up in my class, you just want a certification, fine. I got two days to change your mind. I mean, about why you're here. But I think if you pursue it for knowledge, it's a lot more rewarding. As an employer, I would never hire a project manager that didn't have a PMP ever. I wouldn't even interview them. And that's because the one thing I don't want to have to do is I don't want to have to sit down and explain the difference between work and duration to somebody. I wouldn't hire somebody for a scrum team that didn't have a CSM or a CSPO because I don't want to spend my time on the really basic stuff that you should walk in knowing. When I have people that get through my CSM class, the way I explain it is when you pass the test in the agile community's idea, the equivalent of a 16-year-old that just walked out of the DMV with a driver's license on your 16th birthday. Like it doesn't mean you're any good. And I don't expect you to be good. I expect to have to fix a lot of stuff, but I expect you to know how to put on your seatbelt and turn on the car. So I love that.

SPEAKER_02

That's like such a good analogy in terms of like, yeah, where you're at coming out of the gates doesn't mean you're an expert level F1 driver. Means, yeah, you can use the blinkers and you know.

SPEAKER_01

So they can't call you like certified scrum adequate. Like that wouldn't probably work.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. I think there's amazing points there. And I Dave, I love your mic drop about like, yeah, I wouldn't hire someone who's not certified. I wouldn't, I do not want to have to explain this stuff. I wonder if we can like maybe just dive into like a few examples that like anchor this for the audience. You know, we're talking about shared language, we're talking about knowing the rules of the road, we're talking about meeting the requirements of certain contracts. Karthik, maybe I can pick on you first, mostly because I think AI is the elephant in every room these days. What does the CPM AI stand for? Like what is it all about? And is it actually only for projects where there are data scientists on the team?

AI Project Management And CPM AI

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So I'll talk about what's CPM AI first. Uh so CPM AI, I know there's a lot of acronyms, but this one is really simple. It is certified professional in managing AI, right? So that's what it stands for. So it's a specialized certification, right? So it is ideally for those uh AI project leaders or even project uh leaders who don't see themselves as like a project manager, not seen by their title, but they're often like data scientists, software developers, etc., and are expected to play that role and you know, step up to lead that project, right? It's also, I would say, a benefit for project professionals who don't yet see themselves as like very conversant in AI and the technicalities of it, but are involved in a rollout. For example, every organization right now is uh, you know, kind of rolling out generative AI tools like Copilot. And uh our organization was part of that as well. And uh I was involved in like a course uh team that was uh looking to roll out co-pilot through all the organizations. And I think with my knowledge of uh CPM AI, I kind of benefited from that because I know what are the stages involved, and you can't really just cut to the chase and be and have a traffic rollout. You need to be able to uh talk to the technology team, understand the limitations and the governance frameworks that you have to put in place uh before you do the entire rollout. So I would say that you know, just to give you an analogy, you know, the CPMAI is kind of like a specialized certification, right? So in the case of like a general contractor that you involve for building a construction project, like maybe a residential project, right? Uh would you really put them in charge of a specialized project, like say a nuclear reactor or like a wind tunnel or so on, right? So there are different sorts of risk factors involved, and you need to plan for that in that particular method. So think of that in how CPM AI is. It's a specialized certification that builds on the foundation that is given by the PMP, which is like a project management uh, you know, for anybody sort of uh uh context. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02

It's really interesting about the specialization part of it. I know that some of your co-panelists here have some spicy opinions about AI. Dave, uh, can I throw to you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so for me, like one of the biggest benefits with CPM AI and just that space in general, I don't know where I fit as a project manager because I don't want to be the prompt guy. I'm never gonna be expert enough in that that I can be like, that's what you should hire me for because I don't want that job, but I don't know what to do yet. So a lot of it right now, specifically with that, is trying to find my place in that world because I know they need project managers and I know I have to be fluent, but I don't know what to do yet. So it's early enough, I think, that you can still try to figure that out. But I'm learning a ton about things I have to pay attention to, and that's where I find it really valuable.

SPEAKER_02

What I find interesting about the like heritage of the certification, the CPM AI certification, is that in some ways, Cartha, you touched on it, it was like not necessarily project managers. Like, you know, we're talking about, you know, teams of data scientists building AI where they didn't necessarily self-identify as project managers. So giving them that sort of baseline of like how to ask the right questions of stakeholders and how to, you know, push back on certain things because the implications are huge when it comes to like AI and building models and things like that. We need to pause on the ethics, we need to pause on like the data governance side of things. But Dave, I think it's really interesting what you're saying, right? It's which is like, how does this impact, you know, the role? And I think I saw it in the chat that it's not a title, it's a role project management. It's an angle that I see some organizations, especially PMI, going in, where it's just like, yeah, not everyone's gonna be a titled project manager, but are there projects that people will need to lead? Hell yeah. Are they gonna involve AI? Yes. So I think that's really interesting in terms of like, you know, Dave, what you're saying, like, yeah, where do we fit as titled project managers?

SPEAKER_00

Can I interject for a second? So I saw that comment, and I'm gonna say this with love to the person. So comments like that, I think they kind of trigger me a little bit. It's the same thing, right? It's the same thing too when people say, Oh, a project manager can't be an agileist and vice versa. When you think about the hiring managers, they don't care. They don't know what they're doing, they just want you to get the work done. And so when we get into this debate about is it a role, is it a profession, they don't care. Like you want to meet their needs. So knowing if you want to work with Dave, Dave ain't gonna hire me until I have a certification. Like that's the trigger for you. So for you all, when it comes to looking for the positions or when it comes to the companies, if they consistently say PMP is preferred, get it. If they say scrum or safe, and that's the job that you want, get it. And what I do appreciate about this latest iteration of the PMP exam, I mean, they're coming for their competitor. I'm not gonna say their name, daily. They're coming for them. They have it is 60% of agile. And what they are doing is saying, you know what? The organizations need an adaptable project manager. And we know the traditional waterfall may not always be the right approach, given how dynamic our projects are. So we're answering that. We are going to meet that market demand. And if the recruiters, the organizations say PMP preferred, get it, is my recommendation. And I see the value. So I not only have this ACP, but I also have the CSM. And I'll be honest, like, people were like, which one should I get? I'm like, what does your team have? Like, speak the same language. But I went and got the CSM because I'm like, I need to be able to answer this question because it's driving me nuts. And now I can speak to the key differences and the distinction between the two. I'm not gonna take up too much more time. So that's an offline question for anyone. But I think try not to get caught up in is it a profession? Is it a role? Should you can you be an agileist? I don't care if they call me honey boo-boo. If they're going to pay me to be a project professional that can be adaptable and the certifications can provide the foundation, just as Dave said, the language, so I can speak the same language as my team, get it. That's my stance on it.

SPEAKER_01

So the whole hairs. I think those lines are going away, and people who practice this as a professional craft will have to be expert in all forms. I like that adaptability is coming into it as well.

SPEAKER_02

And like, yeah, I feel like this analogy is gonna like thread through the whole conversation, but like that shared language, you go into a country, what language do they speak? If you want to be able to communicate, learn that language. That's kind of the thing. I did want to maybe zero in a little bit on the CSM. And Dave, if I can pick on you a bit, because sure uh earlier, like your point is well taken. If you know, we are a scrum organization. I'm only gonna hire people who know what they're talking about, know how to do it. Certification tells me that. I actually have sometimes I've seen the opposite. I've seen folks looking for a CSM in an organization that doesn't do Scrum. Maybe, you know, maybe most of the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Where they're waving their hands and using the word Sprint a lot.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Is it is it because they're like, we're not sure what language we speak here. Um, I hope that you have some kind of certification. Or is it aspirational? Or, you know, are there some areas where the CSM actually does translate legitimately into non Scrum context?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's changed a lot over the past fifteen years. Right now, there's this sort of systematic collapse of people's ability to plan because they bailed on the on traditional stuff because it was too hard. They kind of waved their hands at Agile and didn't really do it right. Now it doesn't work. And a lot of people come to like a CSM or a CSPO to learn like the right way to do it. And they spend two days learning how to use something that it's like, I'm going to teach you how to swim in a saltwater pool and then throw you back into freshwater because their environment can't support it and wasn't designed to support it. Or they're pretending to do, say, for some other form and they want to know how to do it right, but they might be trying to do it in an organization that isn't built for it. And I think that's such a like the problem.

SPEAKER_02

What an interesting signal. And I think even talking with like agile coaches as well, where like, you know, they get brought in and then almost immediately need to like justify their own existence because they're you know, they're like this, you know, Sam is swimming upstream in an organization that hasn't gotten it right but wants to, but also can't remember why they hired it.

SPEAKER_01

They don't want to do the work of the change. Yeah, yeah. They want fat-free fat. I mean, they can't you can't have that.

SPEAKER_00

That doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_01

It's part of that keto diet where you eat a Taco Bell every day.

SPEAKER_02

Love it. Crystal, I wonder if I could swing back to you because you mentioned, you know, you got your ACP, your agile certified practitioner from PMI, mostly because a client asked for it. Like, what's your take on who should be looking to hire folks with an ACP certification, having sort of gone through that?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know how to answer that, to be honest. It's such a and you know, Dave Ancarth, please chime in. I find with the Agile, it's you know, with with traditional right PM project management, we know PMP and Prince too, right? In the in Europe. But with Agile, there's so many certifications. I have, I don't, I I asked him to join. I had one student, he took the ACP exam with me. And then he's like, okay, I got the safe, and then I got this other safe, and then I got the CSM, and then I got the CS. And I said, why did you get so many? He's like, because every time I interview it, they're like, oh, that's nice you have that, but can you get this one? It's like they don't know at that point with Agile, organizations aren't quite sure what they really want, right? It's the flavor of the month. And unfortunately, I really do wish they they're taking classes with Dave so that they understand the differences of what the certifications are teaching you, not just that you have the certification in and of itself. You know, is it that you want to implement the scrum framework? Is it that you want to implement something a little bit different, like XP? I mean, that's what we touch on in the ACP certification. And that's the distinction is that it's more broad with ACP versus the Scrum is specifically the Scrum framework. And if and that's why I'll tell people if you work with other folks who are trained in that, it just makes sense to get the same certification. But no, no, no, the response I get is well, I want to be different. What like speak the same language? Like you're you're now you're missing the point of why you're getting the certification. So, in my mind, so I'll stop there.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. There's so much in there, like in terms of like I I agree. Like, I think a lot of people they want to stand out, you know, they want to get the certification that maybe no one else has so that they can say that they have, but also is that where there's value? I skipped over a question, but it was kind of like, you know, being part of a club, you know, is it just a badge, or actually, is that the point, right? Is that, you know, you do speak the same language that you are like all these other people, that you're not like different. The whole idea is that you're the same.

SPEAKER_01

But now you can't even get to the part where you get to prove you're different because you have to get through the stupid screening thing. So all those certifications, like I can't even get into a room to talk to somebody and explain who I am because the ATS screens me out every time because I'm missing whatever thing I'm missing.

Scrum Master Certs Outside Scrum

SPEAKER_02

I wonder, like, can we go there? Actually, it's like maybe a good segue because you know, we're talking about hiring managers, you know, what they're asking for, whether they know if uh what they're asking for makes any sense or whether they know what it means. So and then I think you raise a good point, Crystal. Like, and I, you know, uh with the best intentions, Dave, I agree with you. Some people will go and get a bunch of certifications because they're curious, because they want the knowledge, not because you know, they are they just want to wear the badge that gets them around the ATS. But for folks who are hiring a PM, like, how can they tell if someone's just like gaming the system and like collecting certifications without the skills to back them up? Great question. Or like, is there a case to be made for certifications telling a story of like, you know, intention, right? Like Dave, you said, like, you just came out of the DMV with your driver's license, you're 16. That's in some ways, some of the certifications may be saying that I know stuff, please hire me so I can develop. Don't hire me because I'm an F1 driver. Yeah, hire me because I know how to drive a vehicle. Somewhere in there to the question, yeah, how can we how can hiring managers kind of like cut through people who are like gaming the system, you know, alphabet suit, but actually nothing to back it up. Dave, maybe I'll throw to you first.

SPEAKER_01

I hired a guy one time because he was a PMP and he had been building his own PMP training materials. And I was like, well, damn, this guy's gotta know his stuff. Probably one of the worst project managers I've ever met. When I got my PMP, I went back to where I worked, same company, and I said, All right, we're gonna do every step in the pinbok front to back. And it took me two years to recover my credibility after they told me to stop. So I think there's a big difference between the theoretical knowledge and the actual practical knowledge. I mean, you might not have a certification, you might be an amazing project manager. And I don't think any certification, I mean, any, I think anybody would tell you this, it doesn't mean you're good at it. It just means you have developed a basic understanding of that language. And so the only way they're gonna get that is if they actually talk to you. So maybe in an interview process that you're trying to screen out people you think won't be able to have the conversation, and you're hoping that if, you know, I mean, maybe there should be like a limit. If you have more than eight certifications, you're washed out of the system because you can't commit to one. I don't know. Reverse ATS. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Stuffed too many keywords. Yeah, you you do not pass go.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You know, the catch 22, how do you get experience if you can't even get past the ATS to begin with? Like the certification requirement becomes the gate where there's no like the right people getting in to build their experience aren't getting in. They're not even getting to that stage where they can explain themselves, Dave, to your point. You know, they're not at the they like won't even get to the interview stage because the screen on it, the filter, is about certifications that frankly might not even matter in that like employment context.

SPEAKER_03

So just to add to that, uh, I mean, I think it's important to pursue those certifications that are really relevant and uh you know high quality, right? So it's kind of the onus on the candidate as well as the hiring manager in in in a way, because there's an exchange that's happening, right? If there is a uh job listing where you don't uh where you mention some certification which you're not really considering as a qualification, then don't put it there. Uh or you know, on the other hand, if you do want somebody to do a particular task which you think they would benefit from a certification, then do feature it there. And on the flip side of the candidate, you want to advertise or you know, look at those aspects that are going to really get you through that ATS, right? So that's a definitely a important screen. And so let's not put an alphabet soup there, but really focus on the ones that you have. You know, you only have to choose to show which you know portions of your resume you think would best fit that you know job description.

SPEAKER_02

I love that. When you trace it all the way back up the mountain to where the river starts, like you can see where the problems begin, right? It's like you might be a hiring manager, you're bringing on a project manager, you might not be a project manager. You're like, Well, what should I ask for? You go to Indeed, you get a template, you talk to HR, HR is like, well, it says you should ask for this, and you're like, okay, I guess I'll put it in there. You don't want to review a thousand resumes because in this current economy, you put up a job posting, you better believe you're gonna get a lot of people submitting. You do kind of want to whittle it down, but you know, we've almost gone too far now to be like, okay, well, have all these things, have an MBA, have an ACP, have, you know, have like all of these accreditations. And that way, in theory, I'm only looking at a subset of people who are qualified for the job. And then I don't have to, you know, interview a lot of them. Meanwhile, that may have just filtered out everybody who was actually going to be great in your organization, A, because of the combination, B, because, you know, there's folks who are very talented, who have a bit of experience, who don't necessarily have all the certifications. And you might even look at a job posting and be like, it sounds perfect, other than that thing that they're asking for. And I'm never gonna get to that table. And Dave, to your point, right? Like, and and that that can actually be the biggest misstep for a hiring manager to be like, okay, yeah, I'm just gonna, you know, filter up the top because that's what everyone says I should be looking for, and then that's my candidate pool, which doesn't mean they're gonna be good with that story.

SPEAKER_01

Well, even without the cert, like I mean, I look at some of them and be like, to get all the stuff that I have, when would I have had time for 10 years of machine learning? Like, there's no space in there for they want like years of project management, PMO, agile transformation, software development, AI, like all in one person for like$150,000. If that person existed, nobody could afford them.

SPEAKER_02

It's I like this going here because like if we zoom out, it's not just project management. I think like, you know, the job market is this. There's a lot of pressure on teams to make the right hire. Misshires are expensive, nobody's got time, technology's moving fast, it'd be great. Yeah, let's get somebody with 10 years of machine learning experience and and and if we get four years of experience in a 25-year-old. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. If you were coding in the womb, that's who we want. Um, but uh I don't know. Crystal, maybe I could throw this at you. Like, what do you think if someone was hiring a project manager today, based on what we've said, like what would your recommendation be to get a really good talent pool and maybe not just like filter out some of the good noise, some of the good candidates by asking for certifications that may or may not make sense?

Hiring Signals ATS Filters And Experience

SPEAKER_00

I really want hiring managers to remember they had to start somewhere too. I think a lot of people, I get it, we're overwhelmed, but it's like just as you said, we want someone to be the superhero and I don't have to train them anything. And sometimes it's thinking if they've got the right spirit, right? But sometimes you don't even get to meet that person because your recruiter is the one who's looking through it and they're going through the list because we're so busy. Sometimes I just it's giving grace, it's being open-minded. And I know that's easier said than done because I went through my own hiring process a couple of years ago for an internship. I think internships, if you can find them, apprenticeships like Google apprenticeships. I mean, you just have to be, you know, what we used to say, gorilla marketing. I mean, gorilla marketing for yourself and just or duct tape marketing, like just outside of the box. I mean, there's a couple of things I want to unpack what was said. I think Diana said it earlier in the chat about, you know, some of these jobs, they're like, they require us to have the PMP certification. And exactly what you said, it's the way to whittle it down because hiring managers are overwhelmed. There's a lot of resumes that are coming across our desk. And you that's just a way to like filter out because some people are like, you know, I manage my kids' barbecue. So I'm a project manager, and it's like, I cannot like give you a$10 million contract to manage based on you're managing your kids. Like, I need people who are serious. So that's also an indicator is that the a certification or two is an indicator that you are making an investment in yourself and a commitment to the profession. I also want to say about when we see those jobs, right? They that's the unicorn, right? Like they want this superhuman person that does not exist. And I will say this is real talk for my women in the group. Do not think you have to meet 100% of the bullet points. Like, we are notorious for that. I had a guy friend tell me, if I meet the first three bullet points, I apply. And I'm like, of course you do. Like, of course you do. I'm like, oh my God, I don't have this one thing. And it's like, you know what? It is their wish list. So that is my, and this is for everybody. So I don't want to just make it women specific, but even youth, like we feel like it's we've got to meet every item. And sometimes they're like, well, let's see if we can get the closest to it. The third thing, Dave, you're right on with the PMI. Let me tell you a little secret. Our PMI local chapters, we need people to do project management. Like we need help because they are full time too, unfortunately. And you you think like, oh, I'm intimidated, everyone has their PMP. We do, but we're not using them in our chapters. So this is an opportunity for you to now just know if you volunteer, they're like, oh, you do it. Oh, you keep doing it. But that's where you get the experience and the network. Exactly. And the network. So I do want to encourage people, whether it is your agile group, it is your local PMI, Agile, whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Agile. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Agile Alliance is now with PMI. And, you know, shameless plug because I'm in the DC area. The Agile Alliance conference is going to be here in DC in July. So, you know, try to, and you're like, oh, I can't afford it. Volunteer. Like, you know, do that's the duct tape marketing that you're going to have to do. You have to go and, you know, figure out. And I know it's working and and Yaron, you said it. Finding a job is a job. And you just have to carve it out for yourself. So that those are my 15 cents. You guys were just throwing it on there.

SPEAKER_03

I kind of love what uh Kristen is saying. So I mean, experience is uh, you know, critical, obviously. I mean, if anything is perfect, if you have the exact experience to do a project, I think that uh trumps everything. But you know, to get in there, gather that experience is so critical. And I think it's a tough job for hiring managers as well. Like we are keen for people who have the cutting edge skills. Uh, they often think that uh, you know, they need to be aware of AI solutions and tools, etc. I just read yesterday that uh, you know, Accenture, you know, eminent name and consulting, right? Uh, they say that uh a college degree is not just enough for getting a job in consulting anymore. Part of that is because they expect uh, like what I read is that uh the you know the candidates might be able to use AI to you know solve for things that earlier they would have expected in a person with just a college degree to be able to do. So it kind of lowers the barriers for everyone, but now it kind of broadens the talent pool, right? Now the hiring manager has to make a you know bet on even an even wider uh market there. So you have to kind of be able to, you know, shine through with your experience as a candidate and show skills on the job. I think that's where certifications could give you an edge, you know, especially the uh rigorous ones. You know, they show that you have uh skills that are evaluated by you know a trusted authority in the space. So that's I think an important uh, you know, support for the candidate to get through this uh tough job market.

SPEAKER_02

And even like just to flip it around, like Crystal, I like what you said about like the duct tape guerrilla marketing on that side. But like even for the hiring manager, Carlik, like I agree, like it's tough for them too. But like just like a job seeker, we always tell them, like, okay, yeah, that like ATS, throw your resume into a dark hole is not the only way to do it. I think we also need to flip the script as well for hiring managers to be open, to like be networked with, to you know, attend these events, to meet young emerging talent, or even like older, more senior pivoting talent, or just the people, right? Like have a dialogue with people. I think that the thing that I'm coming away with here is that sometimes, and not by design, just by accident, and because you know, humans have this way of kind of screwing things up. We we've created this like great filter of certifications that's not good for anybody because suddenly you're asking for things that you don't even really care about, and then the candidates that you want aren't applying or getting through the ATS because they're like, wow, you sound really stodgy. Like you are, you know, like a buy the book PMP spot. I need to have my other, you know, certifications as well. I don't even want to work for you guys, actually. Whereas actually, you that might have been a good pairing, you know, it's like the icky game of like, you know, the dating apps where you're like, actually, people who would have been very compatible like might not be connecting with one another for all these things we designed to try and help ourselves out, to like not be overwhelmed by candidates, to, you know, only get the most qualified people to be mindful of our time and to make a really good hire. That's what's at stake. And yet, some of the things that we do, some of the things that we use the certifications for to like exclude people, actually, even if there's not necessarily a good reason, are some of the things that actually make it even more challenging for everybody.

Final Takeaways And Thanks

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And just a note on that that, you know, for hiring managers, we talk about ATS filtering candidates and that side of the pool, but how about for hiring managers? Candidates now know how to use tools like ChatGPT and Claude to just force fit a keyword in their resume. And you don't even know whether that candidate really possesses that skill, or is it just like an AI-generated resume, right? So, how do you trust it? So, I mean, I would personally feel more sort of assured if I see a name that I trust in their resume. Like often it tends to be, you know, colleges, it would also be certifications, right? So it could be ones that you trust are highly relevant and high quality for doing that job. Love that. Totally agree. I wanted to say a big thank you to everybody for volunteering their time today.

SPEAKER_02

Guys, I had so much fun. Thank you for sharing your expertise. Thank you for bringing the spice. Thank you for all the gauntlet dropping and mic dropping and just like legitimate truths. I think this is really insightful. So thank you. Thanks for much.

SPEAKER_03

Thanks for very much. Thanks for walking through this, uh Garen.