Have you ever pondered the intricate dance between divine providence and human initiative, especially when it comes to healing? Prepare to embark on a thought-provoking journey through the realms of God's sovereignty and our free will within the Christian faith. Our latest episode challenges how the reformed theology frames God as the orchestrator of every minute detail in our lives, including our health, and contrasts this with the biblical accounts where figures like Peter and John took bold, decisive action to heal in Jesus' name. By analyzing these scriptural encounters, we uncover the expectation for believers to mature and step into their roles as Disciples within God's kingdom, actively engaging with the world around us while navigating the intersection of God's omnipotence and our choices.
Yet, what role does prayer play in the grand tapestry of God's will? This episode also delves into the potent influence of prayer as we align ourselves with the divine. We reflect on the nuanced dynamics of Abraham's bold negotiation with God, drawing out the lesson that our Creator is not just open to our petitions but is swayed by the sincerity of human intercession. As we traverse biblical examples, the conversation reveals how our supplications mold the unfolding of God's plan, even as we grapple with the coexistence of predestination and personal agency. By the end of our discussion, listeners will be encouraged to view God's workings through a lens of love, considering the profound implications of our imperfect actions within His ultimate will. Join us for an episode that promises to enrich your understanding and challenge your perspective on the divine-human partnership.
Have you ever pondered the intricate dance between divine providence and human initiative, especially when it comes to healing? Prepare to embark on a thought-provoking journey through the realms of God's sovereignty and our free will within the Christian faith. Our latest episode challenges how the reformed theology frames God as the orchestrator of every minute detail in our lives, including our health, and contrasts this with the biblical accounts where figures like Peter and John took bold, decisive action to heal in Jesus' name. By analyzing these scriptural encounters, we uncover the expectation for believers to mature and step into their roles as Disciples within God's kingdom, actively engaging with the world around us while navigating the intersection of God's omnipotence and our choices.
Yet, what role does prayer play in the grand tapestry of God's will? This episode also delves into the potent influence of prayer as we align ourselves with the divine. We reflect on the nuanced dynamics of Abraham's bold negotiation with God, drawing out the lesson that our Creator is not just open to our petitions but is swayed by the sincerity of human intercession. As we traverse biblical examples, the conversation reveals how our supplications mold the unfolding of God's plan, even as we grapple with the coexistence of predestination and personal agency. By the end of our discussion, listeners will be encouraged to view God's workings through a lens of love, considering the profound implications of our imperfect actions within His ultimate will. Join us for an episode that promises to enrich your understanding and challenge your perspective on the divine-human partnership.
Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Coffee Pots. Where's Lovely to be back with you again.
Speaker 2:Yep, nice to be here. It's been swinging into the new year completely now.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We've got some good questions that have come through from listeners for our podcasts and I've got one for you today and I hope you're ready, okay. So Wes is it or was it the reformers who believe that as disciples we aren't part of the decision for God to heal? Have I got that theology correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see. I mean a reformed position. Theologically, yeah, has some parameters to it the way that we see God and the way we see ourselves. So even within that you take things of, people would believe in original sin. Of course, on the other side, there's something called original goodness, which is, you know, another thing as well, but I guess probably what you're coming down to is the issue of the sovereignty of God and the free will of man. Okay, so for some, God has to, almost, and please, if you're in this theological camp. I'm not criticizing, I'm just trying to explain something to people that perhaps might not get it. But God is almost micromanaging reality, Right, so he's, he's.
Speaker 2:He's the complete opposite of the dais to think God created everything and then just shoved off and said good luck, guys, you know hope you're working this out by on your own, but in in this, in the sovereignty position and again, I'm probably overstating it, you know but but actually what you've got is that for God to be sovereign, he has to be all powerful, almighty, all knowing. Okay, we're that, but actually that means he, he has to decide everything, know everything and have every finger in every pie of every person's reality and life. And, of course, one of the flip sides of that is some people have moved to the thing which has actually got us in control. That much. Is he not also responsible for evil?
Speaker 1:Oh, right yeah.
Speaker 2:And sickness. So you, can see how I mean at the end of every theology ultimately is a heresy because we take it so far.
Speaker 2:Yeah it comes the other thing. So the question is is it possible for God to be sovereign but also to allow us free will and be open to that free will? And that's the question really that you're asking. So, so when people say, god, would you come and heal? Okay, you know, I understand the prayer Absolutely, but what does Jesus tell the disciples to do? He tells them to go and, in his name, heal the sick.
Speaker 2:So I'm not sure that the you know, peter, james and John stood with their first healing moment when just sent out oh no, there'll never be James and John in pairs and said God, would you come and please heal this person? So, certainly, at the gate, beautiful, when Peter and John are with the guy who's who's laying and begging. It's interesting. Peter's prayer isn't God, would you come and heal this person? Peter's prayer is in the name of Jesus Christ and that's where he'll get up and walk. And so you suddenly thinking, okay, what's the relationship between those two things? Is God's sovereignty? Is he wanting to give us all of himself, including healing and salvation? Yes, he is, but also somebody put it this way it is also God's sovereign will that I should choose and be involved.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I that's just so encouraging Because, as as you were just talking about sovereign the nature of God in my head I was thinking Sovereign to me almost sounds like like you just said, like what he's doing he's allowing us to have free will and be a part of, at the same time, like I don't know how to describe it fully.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, no, I mean. I mean you're right, and I'm not making God any less.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think God needs to have fingers in every pies. I think he's much greater than that and I think, as I've said before on some podcasts, I think God says where's make your play? Because you know, I know how all of this works out, whatever you do. But but I think, if I put it this way, when my kids were growing up, I was sovereign in the house. Yeah, okay, I paid the bills, we did all the things and we fixed things and we ran the house and we fed them on and stuff. So in that sense I was sovereign. But within that, they also got to choose some of the things that they did and actually that choosing was important for them to grow up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think and this might be the bit that we might get some letters about in contentious but I think God wants the church to grow up, yeah, and not be like babies where we are being spoon fed Sunday by Sunday. I think God actually wants to not raise up a nursery. I think it was to raise up an army.
Speaker 1:That does something, whereas actually I get to some church settings and I think.
Speaker 2:but you're just keeping these people, you know, in spiritual nappies. We just we feed them and we clear up the mess, but actually, in the end, Jesus sends the disciples out to become part of the kingdom movement, and I think that's where people say yes. But you know, if, if, if God doesn't control. And I think I want to say to people God is much, much bigger than that. I mean honestly, he said God isn't sitting in heaven thinking, oh, my goodness me, what's where's going to say next? Okay, because I think he's big enough, he can cope with whatever we do, because he's equally prepared for it.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, yeah. And so you know wherever you sort of or whatever you believe, your theology is on this spectrum of how involved we are or how much we may influence God's decision which will come on to in a little bit Because that's a very big one, but I just want to start, before we do get onto that influencing part, with does God choose to heal based on the position of our heart or our beliefs? So say, you've got somebody who believes that we are nothing to do with the decision of God healing somebody. Could he still heal them? That's kind of where I suppose I'm coming from.
Speaker 2:I mean, the interesting thing is, as you read through Old and New Testament okay, god is interacting with people saving, loving, healing right people who don't believe in him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in fact the layman you know, he comes up to the face of the prophet and he gets healed before he believes. In fact, he so does not believe that. He's thinking what the flippin' neck am I dipping in this muddy river here when we got better ones at home? You know, and, and and. In the end he only finds faith after he's been healed. He doesn't get it before. There are people in the gospels that Jesus heals who clearly don't follow him afterwards. Some do, absolutely.
Speaker 2:So the question is yeah, I prayed for a guy who was, in fact, he was sitting in his van and he had diabetes and he said to me it won't work for me. So I said, why not? He says I don't believe in God. I believe in God for both of us. So you know, let's, let's do, but he, let me pray for him, and actually God really met him. It's really really wonderful. But actually God is much bigger than thinking. Unless you believe the right thing and read the right Bible and go to the right church and get to the right meeting, only then will I heal you, because God heals people just because he really likes people, loves people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it goes back to what we were looking at last year in the Academy, where we believe God wants you well and whole. Yeah. No matter who you are you know his intentions for you are good. So yeah, if you, if you know that that changes things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I know that you know I mean, we talked to some people and you know they were really, whether they were in power today. Uh, I think we received it. Yes, I get it. Yeah, buh, yes, sis, yes, app. Amino queria dulces implantacaksıninit. Yes, they're really hesitant about you know, should we pray? For healing for people who are non-Christians.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was bad enough.
Speaker 2:But should you pray for healing for people who are Muslims?
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Who believe in a different thing, you know, and so I was looking at them and thinking you know what sort of God are you? God, Because it's God's kindness, His the said, His loving kindness, that leads me to Him.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So if God's saying, right well, until you get your act cleaned up and till you're a bit better than you are, don't bother coming. But actually the message of the cross is Jesus says look where's your better, come as you are, mate, because you need a lot of help, right. By the way, I do love you, you know. Come on. And actually I discovered that. And then things have opened up in my life. So I've prayed for Muslims for a evening. Absolutely, you know and know I'm not responsible for do they pray the prayer and they go. That isn't my responsibility there. My responsibility is to be Jesus there.
Speaker 1:Or in their case.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir which is the name the Muslim name of Jesus, to be a disciple of this, sir, and and it's a concoct with the rest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because he's pretty big and pretty good at it. We had some lovely experiences of different beliefs or different religions when we were in Nepal and we were so hesitant to ask if they would like prayer. So they were Hindus and we would say we knew that there were particular people who needed physical healing and it was so kind of like, oh, this is, we shouldn't, because they've got a different belief. And do you know what we said we? Eventually, it sounds so silly, You've got the courage to do it. And then they said, oh, yes, please, Jesus is still God too. We believe, you know, we believe this God, that God. And all of a sudden we were like how silly of us to you know, think that you can't do that. It was. It's such a learning experience for us.
Speaker 2:It is, and actually I think, one of the things that we ought to admit, you know, and I freely do here as a Christian and even as a Christian Anglican priest. You know, I haven't got all my theology right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's still bits that I don't know. And there's still bits. Probably when I meet Jesus he'll say well, it's good effort, mate, it's got that little bit longer here, you know. Like, oh really, oh, yeah, Okay, and I will be absolutely honest. I, you know, was brought up in a Baptist church. You've heard me say I believe in God, the Father, God the Son and God, the Holy Bible. I think one of the interesting things is I changed my theology?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Because I just I met the Holy.
Speaker 2:Spirit and I changed my theology about healing. I changed my theology about how God works because suddenly, the bigger, there was a bigger picture, yeah. And today, okay, 43 years on, my bigger picture I hope is going to get bigger. This year because I'd see more of who he is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, that's great. Okay. So the big juicy question Do people's prayers influence God's decision to heal?
Speaker 2:Oh, no, they. You see there is your big question. So get your pens out and start writing emails on to us. Now, Okay, that relates to the first bit. You see, the sovereignty thing. If God has decided everything, then our prayers are in a sense nothing, because they change nothing. Yeah. But then you get Jesus who's saying you actually really should pray that your kingdom come and you will be done. Okay, because actually sometimes it isn't being done on earth.
Speaker 2:Right actually, if we're honest, if you look at your, your tablet or your newspaper or your TV, the will of God isn't being done. Yeah. So even if you take Israel and the Middle East right now, let alone other places in the world, god is not getting his will done All the time in the way that he wants. Which is why Jesus saying, guys, you gotta get involved, you're gonna pray and you've got to, you gotta be part of it. But then, of course, you come to a story like Abraham, and he has this negotiation with God about 50 45. You know.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's almost like the reverse of poker, it's just trying to try to bring, and I'm sorry if you're offended if I mentioned God and poker in the same breath, but you know it's that, it's that thing he's. He's always saying to God, yes, but if only only, and it gets down to 10.
Speaker 2:You know, and God is clearly open to the intervention, he is clearly open to the intercession and and yes, there was clearly a very clear Description in the scripture that God starts the conversation that God wants us to be involved in. He wants the reason to be compassionate, but also, you know, and it comes down to how fixed is the will of God in everything? I mean, you know the your listeners can't see for the moment, but actually what they would see is that I'm wearing a blue shirt. Now, you know, was it God's will that I wore a blue shirt today?
Speaker 2:I don't think he was particularly that others you know, so you know, the will of God is like well, you know, just so you've got clothes on, that's probably a good move, and and so do you see what I mean. But and so part of that, we we move some things into. This has to be the will of God. He has to decide everything. And then there are other things, like do I have tea or coffee?
Speaker 1:We think, okay, you know I got to make that.
Speaker 2:So my question then is this is the one that you've brought out is insane in the relation to healing, and we only ever do that if God says I specifically want that done and that person healed. Or does God say Could you just pray for as many people as you can and see as many people as you can healed, because it reveals that Jesus is healer and savior and Messiah, and, and so I think cat, do our prayers. In fact, god, I think they do, and I'd say that not because I'm creating an etiology, but I think that's the message of the Bible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Moses intercedes for the people and says God please, don't you know, give them what they deserve.
Speaker 2:And God says okay, I won't, you know, you know. And and there are times when the prophets plead with God and say God, please, you know, you know, be merciful to this people, even though we just been going through Isaiah you know the message of our stories God please be merciful, even though they really stuff this up and, to be honest, I am really pleased that people have prayed for me, lisa, and said to God help us out. He needs another chance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah that's. I think that's really helpful. I mean, we've really just taken three questions, but they've opened up so much, haven't they? It's just yeah, it just shows how big a God he is.
Speaker 2:It's amazing, yeah yeah, and I think that's that's the message, lisa, for me. I say to people who think God has to have decided everything, being in control of everything, manipulate everything, you know, whatever who gets his will done by power, I say to them your problem is your God is too small.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, actually a God who gets his will done by love, a God who can work with the choices that we make and weave them into the incredible story that he and fabric of what he's doing, and a God whose presence pervades the reality that we live. He is more with us than we've ever known before.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But actually to do that. He isn't like a rule ticking box, ticking God who says, yeah, but he didn't do this and you didn't do that. God even blesses the right, the wrong thing done for the right reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I pray for some people and thought oh God, I've told you right, you got that completely wrong. But God was very gracious and met them and so I think there's a great opportunity and actually any of your listeners, you know, if they want to write in and say oh, you know, you know absolutely mad of Manchester. You're, you know whatever and you're not mad in Manchester, but you know, write in, let us know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, be great. And also just one final thought I was having, as you were sharing that as well, is I wonder as well whether, if we can, as the people praying, relax a little bit and not have as many control factors, fear factors, things like that which we were talking about towards the end of last year, I think, weren't we about? You know why? Why is my church resistant that sort of thing? Then this question, I think, becomes smaller, it becomes less. You know, we don't focus on it as much because you realize we're just saying you realize how big a God he is, and I just find that super helpful. Like you know, letting go of all those other factors, that's great, I agree with that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Wonderful, okay? Well, let's come to a close and we'll join back together next month. I think we're going to be starting next month with the Healing Ministry now something that should be wonderful, but do check out our website for lots of different resources that are available around the Christian Healing Ministry, as well as our upcoming events. We look forward to seeing you soon. Bye, bye, bye.