Our recent explorations at Guilford Healing Hub and Belfast have profoundly shaped our conversations, leading us to share insights on how to approach individuals as complete beings made in the image of God; interweaving their physical being with emotional and spiritual underpinnings. We challenge the limited perspectives of spiritual practices, much like the Pharisees, by adopting Jesus's empathetic lens toward his followers' innermost doubts and personal tribulations.
Our recent explorations at Guilford Healing Hub and Belfast have profoundly shaped our conversations, leading us to share insights on how to approach individuals as complete beings made in the image of God; interweaving their physical being with emotional and spiritual underpinnings. We challenge the limited perspectives of spiritual practices, much like the Pharisees, by adopting Jesus's empathetic lens toward his followers' innermost doubts and personal tribulations.
Hello everyone. Great to be with you for Coffee Pods and Wes really good to be with you again. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, not too bad. Thank you. Yeah, it's. I'm looking forward to spring coming.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be good, we're doing good Excellent.
Speaker 2:And the hubs are doing great, so that's lovely news.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they are we actually. This last week we people might know we were visiting Guilford Healing Hub, guilford Cathedral. That was a lovely moment together and really nice.
Speaker 2:And last month we were in Northern Ireland, with the hubs in Belfast, of course. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's really nice to visit the hubs, and if you've not been to one yet I mean even if you don't want to go with a specific prayer need just go along to your local hub and you can be blessed. You can just see what it's about and get a feel for it Definitely welcome. But today we've got a really interesting discussion point around ministering to the whole person, and here at Acorn we do talk about ministering to the whole person. Don't be words. I mean we just had an academy on it which was three hours on that whole topic of ministering to the whole person. But I thought it would be helpful to maybe unpack what we actually mean by that. Well, you know what does it look like?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. It's really funny. I sort of remember as a child growing up and the sort of message that the church my church gave me was that God was really just interested in your spiritual life. You know, read the Bible, pray, come to church and do stuff. But actually they didn't really talk a lot about any other bits of your life, like your relationships, or certainly not about healing or anything like that. It was just like it wasn't even there and which really intrigued me as I grew up and as I became a disciple of Jesus and looked at it and I looked at a different thing with him. But for us it means that when we minister to people, we are aware that they are, yes, a physical being they have bones and blood and bodies and things you know but they are also an emotional being. They have a soul and a mind and within that they also have relationships and family and they have hopes and dreams and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:And then, alongside that, yes, they are a spiritual being. Great quote which Shaddan says. He says we are not physical beings having a spiritual experience, we are spiritual beings having a physical experience, and I love that little turnaround. So it means that for us, when we minister to people, pray for people, listening to people, talking with people, we are aware that they are all those three things, that they are not just a physical need that needs to get fixed, they're not just a mind or emotions that need to get fixed, that they're not just a spirit that needs to be, in quotes, saved. Actually, they're all of it one. And in fact for me, for us as a holistic thing, lisa, it's because we are integrated beings. All those three bits are separate, they're all just connected. So that's what it looks like for us in terms of our understanding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I suppose then when we pray for people in hubs and other ministry contexts, we're presented with those three things, aren't we? I mean, somebody mentioned at the academy that just because someone comes with a broken arm, it might not be the thing that actually needs healing or the touch of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and of course, the thing is that we are we're so used to judging by appearances. We say that we don't, but we do, and it's not even that we judge, we just get impacted by appearances straight away. And so one of the key things is certainly for us in our business. That's a silly little thing like, for instance, you're at the end of church and you're praying for the dad who's come forward for prayer. Okay, One of the things that we would be aware of as a team is that he's probably got kids in the Sunday school, he's probably got his wife waiting for them and they've probably got to get them all home for dinner because their kids are on low blood sugar.
Speaker 2:Okay, so suddenly it's not just can we spend 45 minutes unpacking your reality? Actually, some of it is saying you're just needing to meet this guy right now, Cause he's actually going to get his kids up and get home. Yeah, but, as you say, also, somebody might come with what it looks like a physical issue take headaches, stomach pains but actually it could then be really connected to stress and that could be connected to something else. So in a sense, that it's about. If you just say we're just going to deal with the physical, then you miss what the roots are and you don't really help people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see that and I can understand that. And we do see as well in the Bible that the Pharisees and the teachers of the law and also some churches today do emphasize the spiritual part of life, don't they? But you tell us we've been chatting recently that Jesus was different to that. How? Why was he different to that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of the things that is essentially in Aikon's ministry, and certainly in my own understanding, is that it's to do with this thing about being made in the image of God, and I think Jesus, as he, carries from the Father's heart a full understanding of what it means to be fully human, and so I mean the land that was slain before the foundations of the world. Okay, so that means that Jesus was the word before creation came into being, so he knows what we're made of. And I love the way, for instance, that you see the interaction with Jesus and the disciples. They're not just on a discipleship course to train them to be something. He's dealing with them, with Thomas's doubts and with Peter's unpredictability, and James and John and their sort of sense of judgmentalism.
Speaker 2:And yes, I know it sounds crazy, but I think he was also offering Judas the Scariot a way forward to find wholeness for the thing that drove him, but Judas never really got to it. So for me, the crown to knew Jesus was different One, because he taught them as one of our authority and the demons were subject to him. And so the Pharisees were just saying if you obey these laws, but Jesus was saying if you live in this life with God, then that's the kingdom. And so I think in a sense, if we just do the richly laws bit, then we're just dealing with stuff on earth, whereas Jesus comes and he brings life to people, and so he will feed them, he will heal their children, he will help go to what is a hospice and find somebody. Do you mean, whereas the Pharisees had a whole list of laws, why none of those people should ever be touched?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And also the person who's come to mind is Nicodemus. That interaction that Jesus had with Nicodemus about being born again, that would have touched parts of him that maybe were neglected, or do you know what I mean? Because it's the whole person. And I feel, like you said, about Jesus not just training the disciples but sort of leading them into this new way of life, and I feel like he did that with Nicodemus as well, or like that was the area of life Nicodemus needed opening Absolutely, because actually, in a sense, if Nicodemus had come to a sort of standard, sort of English church, we would have probably said, okay, this guy is theologically educated, he's a leader, he's got everything.
Speaker 2:We won't go to the basics of. But, nicodemus, the problem is you've got to start life with God the. Fresh. We would have said well, the Lord loves you and he's got a real one plan for your life and he's going to get you to preach to thousands and thousands. We would have done a different thing, and but for Nicodemus, Jesus treated him as an integrated being. Yes, that's how he got to. You must be born again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So when people come for prayer, let's go with that option. They come with all sorts of things, and how do we let people know that we are interested in all of them, not just like a particular part of the wrong issue? So I'm thinking like if somebody came and they were holding, maybe, an identity that they thought that's the only thing that we're gonna wanna deal with them, how do we let them know? No, we are interested in you as a whole person.
Speaker 2:I mean it's great, isn't it? Because and I do think and some of our listeners might come back to me of this, but I do think in church we get used to giving the answers that are expected of us.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know. So the answer to the question is Jesus or Prem or whatever. And actually, which is why? Finally enough, in the Academy we encourage debate and dialogue and even argument to say let's work out.
Speaker 2:So somebody coming to a healing hub, I mean, first of all, they're given time, okay. So it's not like your appointment's 11 o'clock and it's gonna be over by 11.23 and 11.22 and a half. You are being shown the door, they're given time, they're given respect, so silly little things like. They're welcomed, we use their name, we introduce ourselves, we make sure that they are at peace and they're happy. So you know the team will say we're gonna sit here, is that okay? And this is so and so.
Speaker 2:And so in a sense, we're aware that this is, this is part of God's creation that we're dealing with. Yeah, and actually, if you mess with a grandparent and their grandkids, you're gonna get in trouble. And I wanna say to people if you mess with God and his creation, you're asking for trouble, because God put most of the Godhead into people. It's his pinnacle of something.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we would want to make sure that this person knows that we think they're valuable and, by giving them time using their name, making sure they're comfortable, showing respect just to the first three or four minutes we're saying okay next and you probably you know you've done it as well as I know, but actually we would invite them to tell us what it is that's on their part, what's concerning them, even if it isn't the thing in the end that we might end up praying for right the fact that somebody is told has said you've got, tell us about. You, tell us what is it. Because very often people will get to the thing that they're really concerned about, but they won't necessarily start there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Okay, so we used to say in pastoral appointments in the church that the truth was in the last 10 minutes. You know, as 45 minutes is coming to an end, about half an hour, that's when you started to get the real thing, and so actually we would. And Jesus, of course, does that with Nicodemus, but he also does it with Bartimaeus. He says, bartimaeus, what is it that you want?
Speaker 2:You know, you know, and so I think there are some things, some very practical things, but we would also ensure that we were then visibly paying attention to the place. And they would also know that we were visibly paying attention to the Holy Spirit as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, to be of help to them.
Speaker 2:So those sort of things would immediately strike somebody coming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think that's really good. Actually, you've even mentioned things like the space that we use, and you talked about clearing the room in the last podcast. We did, didn't you? So it just it's kind of a reminder that it's not always just about asking them what do you want prayer for, but actually it's about making them comfortable, having the respect, all those things.
Speaker 2:Yes, because in some way it's also an act of hospitality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:We are giving. I think, also in our prayer thing, that the things that we teach the teams to do is, yes, they're listening to the person and actually the majority of the time they're praying with their eyes open and they're attentive. But also a little thing is. I know that the team leaders will pray and ask God to show them which team members should pray with which people.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's good, yeah, so so actually, and the number of times I remember praying for being somebody came to the meeting at the healing hub and the team leader get two people and one of them was a Catholic and the person who come forward was Catholic for prayer and they couldn't believe that and immediately set them up. But also, we would want to ensure that in our praying we were dealing with the person and, as you said, you know, maybe they've got an injury to their arm, but it might be something else and we wouldn't jump to that. We would lead the person to that. We invite them to journey with us, you know.
Speaker 2:So the use of questions, appropriate questions, the invitation say is there anything that you think is behind that? You know, and so, all the way through prayer, ministry isn't something that's done to us, it is something that is done with us and that's including God. Yes, he does it with us. Yeah, and I think, understanding process what does this person need right now? And do I have to give them a cement mixer full of it all, or can I just give my bucket?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'd hope that people would then know as they left they had had a really life enhancing experience, because one of our values is that when we will, we will identify and enhance the image of God in every person.
Speaker 1:I'm really glad you mentioned that because I was going to ask you one question before we close that we do believe that value and it's something we really do incorporate into ministry. But being made in the image of God is something that we talked about at the Academy for ministering to the whole person. So if there are people listening who are struggling to identify the image of God in themselves, is there anything we can do as prime ministers, or have you got any, just any encouragement that you could share now as well?
Speaker 2:I know that as a culture we are more involved, more aware of self-esteem and self-worth, and I understand that, and it can be very debilitating when we lose our sense of self-worth. I don't know about you, but for me my problem was that the harder I worked to try and get my place of self-worth, the less worthy I felt because I kept failing. So actually I worked really hard and ended up feeling worse than I had when I first started. So for me it was a light bulb moment, lisa, when I realised that God didn't need me to do that, because my self-worth, the value of me, was never going to be based on what I could do for myself and it was never going to be based on what I could achieve and what I could make. And even if I could do ACORN successfully, it was never going to be based on that. And you mentioned a few moments ago about being made in the image of God. I mean, just think about that. You were made in such a way that heaven would look at you and say, oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Lisa was made by the father. She looks a bit like him. And I realised I couldn't get any bigger sense of affirmation than that phrase, that I'm a child of God, I'm made in the image of God. So I stopped trying to go that way and I started to say, well, I'm already made in the image of God and I'm already a child of God. So actually probably the best thing to do is just to live that image, to live what that is. So I thought, well, what does God look like? And I thought, well, okay, he looks like Jesus.
Speaker 2:So I thought, okay, well, actually if I start moving in that direction and not trying to say come on, build something. And actually for me that was just a light bulb moment because it took away my repeated failings and it said it was a bit like the Holy Spirit said where's do you fancy living a different way? You might like this one a lot better.
Speaker 1:Yeah what an imitation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I've got an imitation. So you know, if I preach and it's terrible it doesn't make a lot of difference. Yeah my value is never based on performance. It's based on the fact that I'm made in the image of God and loved by him.
Speaker 1:Amazing. I think that's a lovely encouragement. If you're listening to this, then you just kind of needed that today. Yeah, grab onto it and maybe take that invitation to live in a different way. And so we're going to come back together in a couple of weeks time where we're going to look further into this topic of ministering to the whole person and also hearing a little bit more ways about how you do that in particular. So we look forward to catching you soon. Do catch up on all the podcasts that are online to search coffee pods wherever you listen to your podcasts, and we'll see you soon. Bye, bye.