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A series exploring Christian healing in a handy coffee-break sized podcast. Plug yourself in, pick up your mug of coffee, and let's go.
CoffeePods
The Thrill of Victory and the Agony of Defeat
Have you ever wondered why some victories feel hollow while certain defeats ultimately strengthen us? Following the Lionesses' dramatic penalty shootout win, we found ourselves contemplating the spiritual dimensions of triumph and loss that affect us all.
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Coffee Pods, a podcast of the Acorn Christian Healing Foundation exploring what's happening in the world through the lens of Christian healing.
Speaker 2:Alrighty, let's do this, chris, we've got a good hey.
Speaker 1:We've been cheering since last night in my house. Uh, the, the england women pulled it off. I, I was worried in the first half and then when they leveled up one, all I thought, oh my gosh, please don't go to penalties. And and it did. And I think cardiologists around the country are busy today treating people who had a syncope and all sorts of weird rhythm issues last night. But it was great, the win was great, and I thought we should talk about the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you in America we used to have a saturday television program that was really, really popular and, um, it was called the wide world of sports with a and there was a guy named jim mckay and the. They had this video, that. That was like the intro to the wide world of sports and j McKay's iconic voice. You know the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat, and they had a ski jumper that would crash, going off the ski jump, which was the video that went with the agony of defeat. Ski jumper, you know having a terrible crash, and so I always think of the. You know the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat. I think about this TV show, this sports show, which I loved. But I'm a sports guy, so I love the idea of victory and I love looking at defeat and what defeat can actually teach you. So maybe this is a good thing for us to talk about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's great and also I like the words there. It's the thrill of victory. That's such a strong word, isn't it An agony of defeat, and it kind of shows how you can go from one high to another high or low. There's a real spectrum, isn't there really of victory and defeat?
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, it is, and I think it's good to explore what it feels like when you're on the mountaintop something that I did last month actually being on a mountaintop but the mountaintops of life, the little victories in life. But also it's really important that we look at the valleys too. If all we do is explore what it feels like to win, then I don't know that we learn as much as we can learn about life, and the struggle teaches us something, and so the valleys can actually teach us a whole lot about who we are and what we're made of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that, and there's a quote actually I don't know who it is by, but it says victory is not the absence of failure, but the presence of God in the midst of it. I think that's quite heartwarming.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah, you could argue that all of life has an element of brokenness in it, and so the idea of victory is discovering that even we who are but earthenware vessels the Bible tells us that we're just clay pots and that all of us broken clay vessels. We are not failures, but in our brokenness, in our failure, we find God, and so that's the true victory. We used to sing that song as an old spiritual victory in Jesus. I don't know if you've ever heard. It's just an old gospel song from the Baptist hymn book.
Speaker 1:I heard an old, old story about a Savior who came from glory. He bought me, he plunged me to victory beneath the cleansing flood. But there's something really wonderful about realizing that our ultimate victory is much more important than any of the temporal victories in life. And then when we have a win in life in the any of the temporal victories in life, and then when we have a win in life in the context of the greater victory, it seems to make it even sweeter. It was like the one player from England last night who gave glory to God In the midst of the victory. She's still giving God the glory and I don't think she's saying God did it or God made the free kick go in. She's just simply acknowledging the presence of God in her moment of victory, and I thought that's fantastic.
Speaker 2:It is, isn't it? That's really good. Let's go a bit deeper, then, on the thread of victory, because there's victory in biblical stories, isn't there? Biblical stories isn't there as well as defeat, which we'll look at in a while. But what do you think we can learn through some of the victories we see in Scripture? I mean, the greatest victory obviously would be Jesus defeating the cross. Sure, we could talk about that for hours, I think. Or do you have any personal stories where you have felt the thrill?
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, I mean I don't know how many times I've heard coaches or myself have used the David and Goliath story in the locker room, this idea that we're facing a giant today and God called David and with a slingshot and a rock he took out this big giant of a man and it just shows you what God can do.
Speaker 1:Metaphor that I think. Hoosiers is a great basketball movie that is talking about a state championship run of this basketball team and Gene Hackman is the coach and the boys are kneeling down in the locker and ready to take the court and the one player's father's a Baptist preacher and he stands up to give encouragement. And he stands up and he goes and the young man took a rock and he slew the Philistine upon the head, you know, and the music rises and you just suddenly go. Yes, you know we can do this and you know there is something quite profound about thinking about success and victory and something good about achieving a goal. I think we get stuck into the idea of sports things and running and biking and racing a car, doing something physical, and there are a lot of other victories too that may not register in the same way. I watched a person learning to walk again after a pretty significant surgery and seeing those first steps and this is an adult learning how to walk again and watching the the nurses on the hall cheering and oh, I guess, my dogs, my, my dogs have decided to join the podcast today they're cheering us on
Speaker 1:yeah, they're cheering us on, I think they're they're. They're cheering us on, I think they're protecting me from the mailman. So anyway, but the idea that there are victories that are sporting victories and amazing things that we witness by watching competitive sport, but there are also some amazing victories that come from people who, who, who just endure the hardships of life. And so, you know, someone said to me, you know, I said how are you today? And they said today's a victory. And I was like, why is that? And he said cause, cause, I got up. I got up and I ate breakfast and I put my clothes on. You go, wow, I got up and I ate breakfast and I put my clothes on. You go, wow.
Speaker 1:I mean, to see victories in a small way is probably really helpful. And also, when you have that perspective, then maybe you develop gratitude, like the female soccer player last night, you suddenly become humble when you win. You know, scotty Scheffler wins the Open and he's just the greatest golfer in the world right now. He's just incredible. And the humility.
Speaker 1:The guy's not pounding his chest and saying look at me, look at me. He wins the tournament and the first thing he does is he turns to his little baby, and he's excited for this little child to come and walk across the green to him. And I think, here he is, on top of the world, and instead of sitting there basking in the glow of a world that wants to know how he hits his 56 pitching wedge the way he does, instead of that he immediately is just like my family, the love of my life, my child, and it's almost like he pushes the cameras out of the way and says, excuse me for a minute, while I actually attend to the things that really matter to me, golf is just golf, but the things that really matter to me are my family and my faith, and he's a faithful person, and so I think we can learn a whole lot from the way people win.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And in 1 Corinthians we're reminded, it says but thanks be to God, he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. And just thinking about that verse and you were talking about um sort of like having victory over struggles and the hardships of life and that just feels so healing when you say but thanks be to God, he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ, like we get through those hardships because of him. And I just find, find, you know, I find that so encouraging, and you do see that even in sport, don't you? You do see, like yesterday's match, but how, how would you say? The victory affirms our identity in Christ, you know, if we're giving him thanks and praise giving him thanks and praise.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like a foretaste I like to think of. You know, you go to a fancy restaurant and the chef is so excited to share with you some of his creations. And so when I used to wait I was a waiter in a restaurant many, many moons ago, and before the dinner service a lot of times we'd go back to the kitchen and we would see the chef, and the chef would have the the night's menu kind of laid out on the counter before us and he would give us a little taste of each one of his creations so that we had a sense of how good the food was and we would have our own favorites. Oh gosh, you know, this chicken dish is amazing. This mushroom, this stuffed pepper, I mean you would taste a little bit of it and you would know what it was like. And then when you went out to the dining room and you had a table with four people and they look at you and they'd say well, you know, waiter, what do you recommend? What do you think's good tonight? Well, you're not operating from a sense of not knowing what's good. You actually can say well, you know, I tried this one and this was incredible If you really like mushrooms. Oh my gosh, this is like the best thing I've ever put in my mouth. And you're not lying. You're expressing an experience, a firsthand experience of the taste of this glorious meal that they're about to have in this fine dining establishment and I was working in probably the best restaurant in Western North Carolina.
Speaker 1:So take that and put that onto a victory, like a football game or a cricket match or something like that. It's like a foretaste. You're having this moment where you go. Oh. So this is what joy tastes like, this is what victory feels like, and in my brain I'm thinking this is just a little taste. My brain I'm thinking this is just a little taste. This is just a tiny little moment that points me to how amazing heaven is going to be, because I believe in an afterlife and I believe in being in the presence of God for eternity. And so if that's my theological belief, then the idea of victories in life be it a grandchild who runs up to you and hugs you and recognizes you as paps, or hitting a home run in a game to win the game for your team, or whatever it is that you call a victory that to me is a foretaste of how good it will be one day when we meet God and when the promises that we hear in scripture are fulfilled.
Speaker 2:That's such a lovely way of looking at it. I really like that. I've never heard that before. It's fantastic. And then when it comes to pride, for it's fantastic. And then when it comes to pride, um, can we avoid pride in?
Speaker 1:our successes. How do we avoid it? Do you think I think it's tough? I mean, I think that, um, I don't know. You know pride pride is is about there's.
Speaker 1:There's an element of pride that competitive athletes use. They harness the, this notion of. I know I'm good that you're um, because you know, on a golf course, for example, you know, I I caddied for for a couple of years, and on a golf course, you have to instill confidence in the golfer. When he's 180 yards off and there's sand in front of the green and you're like you got this, and you actually look at him and you say this is a four iron, you can make this shot all day long, you know you got this shot. And so there's a certain amount of maybe it's arrogance, maybe it's pride, I don't know what you would call it, but there's a certain amount of that that high level competitive athletes have to harness the. I think the problem comes when, when we're not in the arena of competition and we see ourselves as better than other people, and and so you go to.
Speaker 1:You know one of my greatest annoyances and this is going to make people mad at me One of my great annoyances is fast passes in amusement parks because it instills this idea in the population that some people are better than others because some people have money and if you have money you can jump the queue. There's this thing that happens in that system where the company is trying to make money and so the way they make money is to charge for those fast passes. And the fast passes give the people with money the ability not to wait in the queues. So instead of everybody waiting the same amount of time for the same rides, it gives some people the ability to walk around the park and look at their children, and I've actually I've seen this happen and it really bugs me. They'll look at their kids and go we're not like those kids. You're, you're better than those kids because we have a fast pass, we're going to get to go on all the rides today, and those poor schmucks are not be thankful that we're your parents because we can buy the fast pass for you guys. And so there is something in a very strong capitalistic society that sort of rewards pride and it rewards greed, and all of that stuff kind of bugs me because I think you know Jesus said the last shall be first and the first shall be last. Jesus kind of flipped over the tables of all of that to try and instill in people a sense of humility, this notion that, um, um, you know, no after you, no, no after you. This concept of waiting in the queue and actually being generous for the sake of other people, um, I don't.
Speaker 1:Do you know who the barbie brothers are? The english, english runners? No, they're like marathon runners and they're two brothers. And there's a wonderful video from a few years ago. I have no idea which competition it was, but the one brother was winning the race and then got all confused and he was about to pass out and, um and the um, the other runners came. I believe this is right. The other runners came and instead of just blowing past him to win the race, um, I think his own brother helped pick him up. And then I think I'm getting two stories mixed, but the one story is the Barbie brother helped his brother cross the finish line.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah.
Speaker 1:Instead of winning. There's another story of a race where the runner took a wrong turn and the two runners, realizing that he took a wrong turn, they got him back on course and then they ran behind him and the the interviewer asked. The one guy said why didn't you just go and win the race? And his answer was so good Cause. He looked at the TV camera and he said but what would my mother think of me if I did that? And so I thought that there's something about generosity in true champions, where they know how to focus and they know how to direct it and they know they're good, but they also know that, as good as they are, god is greater, and that that orientation to the divine always seems to keep us in check lest we be too big for our britches. You know it's, it's that it really is that it is, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um well, let's jump to the agony of defeat. Oh, the agony of a few people feeling defeated today, for whatever reason, yeah but, um, sometimes this can be like things maybe not going our way.
Speaker 1:That could be one thing, but then there are lots of different, uh, defeats in life um, people, I think the more common thing that we all experience is the sense of defeat. I think I think we long for victory, um, because we long for the thrill of victory. But the reality is we watch the television because so many of us never ever get the thrill of victory. We live vicariously. Why did a nation go nuts last night? Because we all wanted to experience the thrill of victory. Even though none of us can kick a soccer ball, you know the idea of us being out there making the. Can you imagine kicking that penalty at the end of the?
Speaker 2:match. I know.
Speaker 1:One penalty and we're all sitting there living through Kelly's leg.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then how many men drank a pint and said oh, I could have hit that, I could have done that. Yeah, throw it over. I'm like no you couldn't?
Speaker 1:She kicked a rocket. But there is something that I think defeat is something. We wake up every day and we kind of feel it. There are different elements of defeat and losing things and not achieving our goals and feeling mediocre and things like that. I think defeat is something that doesn't take a stretch for most of the population to experience.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. You said about losing things as well, and I know we talked about grief and loss before, but actually that's a really good example of defeat, because it's a very emotional, a very personal thing, isn't it Any kind of loss?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like what do you do with defeat? The old phrase of when you get knocked down, just make sure you keep getting back up. And life knocks us down on a regular basis. And life knocks us down on a regular basis, and sometimes it's tempting just to stay there. And you know it's important that we we don't concede laying on the ground. I'm a defeated person, I clearly I'm not good enough, I'm never going to be victorious. I'm never, you know. And so we just resign ourselves to this mediocrity that we've created for ourselves, instead of seeing that we can be great in different ways. And maybe I'm never going to be a great footballer, but what can I be great at?
Speaker 2:What has.
Speaker 1:God put me in this world to do that I can be great at, and is it to be an encourager? Is it to be a singer, a musician, an actor? What is it that God wants me to do today and where is my victory? I think that's a question each of us could ask every day is what is my victory going to be today? And so, out of the jaws of defeat, God can save us in a very real way and we can find victory, Because Psalm 34 says the Lord is close to the brokenhearted and he saves those who are crushed in the spirit.
Speaker 1:I mean, he literally comes in and saves people who are broken and downhearted. And to me, that's like the best news to share on a podcast on healing is to say the source of you know, but I can't get up. Well, there's a person that's got a hand extended to you spiritually and is saying let me, let me help you, Let me help you, and and, uh, and. Then when you get up off the ground, it's like the players we watched last night in that football match. You know, every time you see they blow the whistle and somebody's laying there writhing in pain. Yeah, well, people come running. They don't just leave them on the pitch to ride in pain. They come in and I'm sure the first thing they say is are you okay? Because so many times the spanish ladies weren't. They weren't hurt, they were just they were just having a rest.
Speaker 1:But but the first thing you know when you've been. I've been on the ground on a football pitch before and my record as a tight end, which is a receiver position in American football. I played one play in my college career at tight end and I ran a short crossing pattern. The ball was thrown to me, I caught it and I got hit so hard that I went over backwards. What I remember is seeing the sky and the next thing I remember is the referee standing over me pointing in the opposite direction. And I looked up at the referee this true story. I don't think I've ever told this to anybody. I looked up at him and I said I didn't catch that, did I? And he said, yeah, you caught it and you got hit so hard, you fumbled it and and I came off the field and the coach was standing over there and he's like Kramer. What happened? And I looked at him and I said don't ever throw me the ball again. I said I know my limitations and I don't want to get hit by a linebacker like that ever again. I mean he crushed me.
Speaker 1:But you know, when you're on the ground somebody comes and says are you okay? And I think in life when we have what feels like defeat, where we've been knocked down, somebody takes our head off and flips us over and the world turns upside down. Somebody shows up and somebody says, hey, are you okay? And to me that's like really encouraging. You know cause? Things happen every day all over the world where people fall down, people trip in the underground. You see, you see somebody run their car off the road and immediately people not rescue people, ordinary people, human beings they attend to them and they say are you okay? Why does that happen? That's because human beings are created to natural inclination is to love your neighbor. It's like built into all of us. And so when you see someone trip and fall in the underground, it may be short-lived, to be fair. People aren't going to stick around and find out your life story, but they're going to make sure you're okay before they move on and become, it's like, indifferent, staying in my lane. And then all of a sudden, oh dear, did you see that that lady fell? Are you OK? Are you OK? Do you need anything? They might get you some water. Can I get you something? Can I help you? No, I'm good, Thanks very much. And then everybody scatters again. But it's in that moment, when, in the middle of defeat, we see the way that the world rallies, that really gives me so much encouragement, because I can't imagine a single time in my life where I have seen someone fall and not seen a caring world come around them.
Speaker 1:I saw a car wreck on the way to a men's Bible study a few years ago and the lady literally just drove off the road and her car flipped up on its side. Honestly, we were the first ones to pull off the road. I jumped out of my car. I was actually in the passenger side. I was riding with a friend to church, to the Bible study group. I jumped out of my car. By the time I got to the driver's door of the truck that had flipped, there were already like five other people also there and we ended up opening the door and we pulled this lady out of the door together Just a bunch of strangers.
Speaker 1:We got her on her feet, called her husband. We said are you okay? Yeah, I'm okay. Do you need us to call anybody? No, no, I've got my phone.
Speaker 1:I dropped my kids off at school, you know police, and the police just arrived and then, all of a sudden, these five guys who were on their way to work, who, like me, stopped, we got back in our vehicles and we took off. Nobody exchanged names, details, there weren't any awards or badges given for heroic behavior or any of that kind of stuff, but for us it was a victory to see her. Okay, For her it was a victory that she didn't come to harm, even though she was kind of having an agony of defeat moment when she called her husband and said that the $50,000 truck was on its side. But my way of thinking that there is something that can be gained from really looking at the experiences of defeat so that we rethink them in a way that keeps them from making us feel defeated, but instead we see this as a transitional thing to a greater good. Does that make any sense?
Speaker 2:It really does. Yeah, it does, and there's a quote by Tom Evans. I'd like to know what you think about this, especially your theology. But he says sometimes God lets you hit rock bottom so that you will discover he is the rock at the bottom. So he will let you hit rock bottom so that you will discover he is the rock at the bottom.
Speaker 1:Very interesting, I don't know. I mean, I had a theology professor years ago, this wonderful guy named Norman Young Dr Norman Young from Melbourne, australia, and he was from the Uniting Church faculty in Australia and he came to America to teach and I really liked Dr Young Fantastic and we explored this idea of God permitting evil to happen. We were looking at the notion of the fancy word is theodicy, which is basically where does evil come from? And we were talking about different atonement theories. You know how we become united in God. So our theological belief system, about how God redeems us in Jesus Christ, was something we were talking about in an academic setting, and so we were really exploring this notion of God allowing things to happen.
Speaker 1:And because I kept saying I really have a problem with God letting things happen, because it almost feels like he's doing it. And so he looked at me and he said imagine if god were standing on the back porch and looking at his children, uh, swinging on a swing set in the back garden. I said, okay, I can relate to that. And he goes and imagine if one of the children falls off the swing. I said yeah, okay, and he said, did? Did god prevent them from falling off the swing. And I went, no, no, he kind of let them fall off the swing.
Speaker 1:And I said, well, what does he do next? Well, he runs off the porch and he picks them up and he dusts them off. And he said well, so you're not saying there's a causal relationship between the falling off of the swing and God? And I was like, no, I can see that, this idea of free will. And then suddenly Dr Young was like see, you're exploring this notion of God creating the world and then sort of turning us loose and giving us free will. And so the notion of God letting us hit rock bottom is kind of like saying in Dr Young's words, where God renders God self-powerless was one of his quotes, and the idea that he chooses to let us live in freedom, even though that means that sometimes bad things happen to us.
Speaker 1:And that may seem like a bit of theological fudge, that we're kind of fudging the issues, but I really think there's something to explore in not making God the marionette puppeteer, because that was the one thing we were exploring. It was like, well, if God has a causal relationship to everything that happens, then God's like playing Pinocchio with human beings, and so we're just doing it because God willed it, god wanted it, god drove it. And then all of a sudden I said, but what about all the bad things? Does that mean God did these things to teach us a lesson? And so that way, when you say God lets you hit rock bottom, it starts sounding like God pushed you off the cliff. And you say, no, but what if God allows us to run free in this playground and we bump our head?
Speaker 1:Because, we're running free and we live crazily and carelessly because we're humans and we mess up, but it assures us that when we hit our head, we discover that God is actually the source of all of our strength and our hope, and so he doesn't abandon us. When we hit rock bottom, he is actually there with us. That's kind of how I is that a convoluted way to explain it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really helpful way of looking at it because I mean, that is a really, if you just take that quote, it's a really big piece of theology really, and you really concisely put that together and also like he ended there just saying that God is there, he is with us. And I mean I can say from personal experience when you feel defeated, it can often deepen my dependence on God. Sometimes it takes a little while to get there because you're just so caught up in the defeat, but actually when I look at it, I think, yeah, I think almost every time I have felt defeated in some sort of way, my dependence on God definitely grows. I don't know what it's like for you Me too.
Speaker 1:No, no, me too completely, and I wrote an incredibly long paper on this notion of evil and theodicy and stuff. So I mean, it's something that I struggled with so much that I decide to academically struggle with it. Oh wow, and I still don't have the answers. That's the funny thing is. So many people say, oh well, if you wrote a 35-page paper on this particular subject, then you're an expert on it.
Speaker 2:So you have all the answers and. I say no.
Speaker 1:I just know the complex questions that you can ask and.
Speaker 1:I have my own theories and at the end of the day we come at these things with faith. And so when you are at rock bottom, when you are in the midst of agony, in the middle of defeat, you have to reframe it for yourself so that you can understand where God is in that, with you. And that phrase I've preached from Hebrews many, many times, hebrews 4, which says for we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weakness, but we have one who is in every way, just as we are, tempted. Yet he did not sin. So it's kind of like the Like. The relationship that I have with my faith tells me that Jesus gets me. He understands life, he understands temptation, he understands failure, he understands betrayal. I mean this is a person who was hated, he was mocked In the end, he was beaten and totally mistreated and unjustly judged. I mean he gets it. So when I have a little thing to happen to me in my life, surely if I go to my faith, I have a Savior who is relating to that and he understands how to transform that agony in into victory. In fact, a thing popped into my head I I did a summer camp years ago in appalachian state university, which is in a a mountain town called boone, north carolina, and um, the stadium is totally different now than it was, but this was back in 1988 or 89.
Speaker 1:We had these summer leadership conferences up there for Christian athletes and one of the things that we used to do with all it was all boys, it was a boys camp and at the end of one of the days we had this relay race and again we've got the elite athletes of every high school in the state of North Carolina coming to this camp.
Speaker 1:So all these guys were competitive football players and basketball players and just amazing athletes and we were walking with them through the Christian faith and teaching discipleship. And FCA as an organization in America is still very strong. But this relay race we had huddles and each huddle was like its own little team and the relay race was a combination of, you know, kick a football and jump over hurdles and all sorts of different things, and the final leg of the relay race was one lap around the track. At Appalachian State they used to have a track that went around the football field. They now have a football stadium because they've won championships and stuff since then, but back in the day, there was this big field with a track around it for track and field events, and so the final leg of this relay race, uh, would be one lap around the the field. Well, my huddle decided that I was going to run the anchor leg and do the last lap for our team. So you divvy, you divvy up the responsibilities of all the other activities.
Speaker 1:There were like 10 different things and it was all done competitively as a race yeah so the, the gun goes, and and we start off and our, my huddle starts falling behind farther and farther and the other groups are just going. Great. We get to the field, goal kick and our kicker couldn't make the kick and he kicks it like three times. So we're falling way behind and and so finally they start coming across the field toward me. The other teams are almost finishing the race. At this point, I mean, I am looking up at the other side of the track and the other guys are crossing the finish line and and I'm thinking, should we just quit, cause this is sort of embarrassing, literally. The last team ahead of us was halfway around the track. My guy got to me and he hands me the baton, the baton, and I start running and I hear, all of a sudden, I hear these guys stamping on the bleachers. And I hear, all of a sudden, I hear these guys stamping on the bleachers they had like metal stands beside the track for the football stadium and I hear people like banging their feet, going don't quit, don't quit, don't quit. And so I start running and I thought I'm going to run as hard as I can.
Speaker 1:And I was just at, and this is before I got real fat and slow and I was running as fast as I could and I came up the back stretch and I realized that everybody was coming down out of the stands in the stadium and they had formed two huge lines that that were like facing each other and they ran almost the full length of the home stretch. There were two lines of people cheering and as I came around the final bend I looked and there was this opening and everybody's cheering and and I'm like we're last, we're, we're the, we're the last, we're horrible. This is like supposed to be the agony of defeat, if I ever saw it. And we're running through this channel and all the boys were cheering and jumping and I come running through the middle of this crowd, of these two lines of guys, and I got to the finish line and it was absolute, sheer jubilation.
Speaker 1:Here we are in the mountains and the sound I still I'm sitting here remembering it right now the sound echoed off the mountains and everybody was cheering and jumping and there was this mass of people surrounding the last place, finishing group of the competition. And I thought, here it is that in the middle of what should have felt like agony and defeat, there was victory, and why? Because we put what we did in finishing in perspective, knowing that God will see us to the end, and God cheers for us, just as we cheer for one another, and that gives me great hope. I think about all those boys that witnessed it that day. You know to think how old they must be now and what's happening in all their lives, and how many of them tell a story of that time when they all gathered at the finish line and, uh, you know this this, this college football player with a, with a comb over, was running down the home stretch.
Speaker 1:I told my kids I never had a comb over and then they pulled out photographs of me before I lost my hair and I went all those times I was brushing my hair, thinking I had hair to brush. But there you go. The victory comes in the middle of defeat.
Speaker 2:It does. And also I'd like that you just touched on how community is important and, uh, you know, like a community, even of prayer, so like if people are struggling. That's why the healing hubs, I think, are really great, because you come into a community, even if it's like three people, and they're cheering you on in the same way that you've explained. Absolutely, that's people, okay. So let's just think for a moment, then, about how there is healing, um, through both the victory and the defeat. I mean, it's kind of come out through what, what we've been talking about for sure, um, that there is healing in both victory and defeat, and your story there is just a great example of how I don't think I've shared that story before.
Speaker 1:So this is like I. It popped into my head and I thought, well, maybe that's the holy spirit nudging me to share a crazy thing from my past. But I, I still, I still remember that, uh, that summer camp. In fact, I, I did a, uh, I did a rap, a christian rap that summer at a talent competition and it.
Speaker 1:It was uh, it was so cool because it was at the time when rap was was really the thing. You know, the late 80s. Uh, rap was was happening and and I, I remember, um, I stood up in front of the the guys and I wanted to show them that I was cool. And I still remember. Let me see if I can remember. I said let me tell you about a guy. He's a friend of mine, sweeter than sugar and he's better than wine. He is the answer to the questions that you're thinking about. He will get into your blood and make you want to shout. He is the king. He's on the throne. He bought me for a price and now I am his own and you can feel this way. It's not too late. Ask the lord to let you participate. Well, I'm glad I get to plant the seed, to see you pick your bible up and begin to read. This is what the reason I am here for to let you catch a glimpse of the pearly gates door. How about that? Where did that come from in my brain?
Speaker 2:when you did that, like how that must have been a long time ago and it all just came back oh, I've got a weird brain, yeah but it was a great day.
Speaker 1:I still remembered, uh, standing up and doing that and the these high school boys were just like, oh my, my gosh. You know because then my nickname back then was killer K. Yeah, killer Ken. I was a kind of part-time DJ on the side back then. I had a little thing called the dance machine and I traveled around and did parties and stuff and you're learning all sorts of weird random things about me with. See, there you go, the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.
Speaker 2:Okay, so that's just as we're coming to the close, think about practical steps. What are some things people can do practically to help in defeat and also in victory? To help in?
Speaker 1:defeat and also in victory. I like the idea of taking full advantage of your support group, your friends, your family. Be a good teammate. That's one of the great things when you're doing competitive sports you have the ability to have teammates and the teammates hold you accountable. And a lot of times when we're adulting, we don't have that accountability, and so our relationships with our spouses, our partners, a lot of times needs to have a component of accountability built into it. We need to succumb to the authority of someone we trust, who can keep us honest and make us truthful, because I think that's where victory comes quicker when you actually own the fact that somebody else's perspective actually can be very helpful. So many times, you know, you think, oh, I know what's best for me, I know myself better than you know me, and but I think when you uh, when you're playing competitive sports, a lot of times you trust your coach, you trust the assistant coach and you trust your teammates.
Speaker 1:And um, you know, if you've, if you've ever played American football and you've been in the huddle and you look in the eyes of one of your teammates and your teammates like I'm about to get the ball and run to the right, Are you going to block that guy? Because if you don't block him, he's going to cream me, I'm going to get crushed. And you sit in the huddle and a lot of times you look at each other and you go.
Speaker 2:I got him, Don't worry man.
Speaker 1:I got him, I got 88. He's going to be on his backside because I'm going to take care of it, and there's something about knowing that somebody is going to help you and clear the way for you. It actually is an encouragement. So where do you find that in life? Your intimate relationships, your family, can be a source of good friends. But I think the healing hubs are also an option. Or or churches your local church, you know their prayer groups and churches and relationships that you can have in churches where you say, hey, you know, can, can you hold me accountable, can I trust you? And for people that are battling things like alcoholism and stuff, aa groups and narcotics, anonymous groups and there's so many groups that exist to help people get stronger, to grow from their sense of defeatedness and to live good, functional, happy lives. And so don't try to walk the path alone. I think God put other people in our lives for a reason, and I think the reason is to learn and grow and to let them, you know, carry the weight from time to time.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah, that's really good. Little things as well, like journaling, can be helpful, can't it? Meditation on different scriptures I know that you can get those amazing adult coloring books that have scripture and you color them, they're good because you're spending time sort of meditating on the scripture as you're doing it.
Speaker 1:I like music. I'm a music guy, so I'm not just playing music through the speaker, but I think sitting in the corner in the worship band at our church really is something that gives me joy and I'm not real good at it, but we make a good sound and we praise God together and we lead the singing. And when I'm not up front doing stuff in church, it's really fun to just kind of grab a guitar or the drums and sit in the corner. Fun to just kind of grab a guitar or the drums and sit in the corner and it's just something about being a part of an ensemble yeah, something for God rather than being an individual. It's sort of the team sport mentality, as opposed to something like golf where you're just playing by yourself with a caddy. When you rely on other people and you listen to other people, it just changes the dynamics and I think it informs the way I try and live my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get that. That's definitely relatable and it'd be a good thing. Just as we're closing, you might have already thought those of you who are listening what some of your current defeats are, or even stuff from the past that is still sitting with you. Um, you may feel like you've had some victories lately, but it's always good to reflect on our own victories, our own defeats, and to seek god in those moments, isn't it? And particularly, as we said, give him thanks, give him praise for all that he does do for us and just his love for us. And, chris, would you kindly pray for all that he does do for us and just his love for us. Chris, would you kindly pray for those that are listening?
Speaker 1:Sure, and one of the things I'll say is we were playing in another illustration. I'm a person full of stories, but we were competing in the state championship of a high school football uh in Florida, which is a big deal, and we were in camping world stadium, which is a stadium which seats like 70,000 people, so it was a big, big thing and, um, our guys played the hardest they could have possibly played. It was one of the most amazing examples of, um, just resilience, resilience, everything that happened. They kept coming back and coming back and they just wouldn't quit. And the head coach of the other team, when interviewed immediately after the game, he he said those boys over there, they weren't defeated today, they didn't lose, they ran out of time and he said, if there had been more time on that clock, they were not going to quit, they were not going to allow defeat to sit upon them.
Speaker 1:And I thought that's the way I want to live my life, as somebody who is refusing to accept defeat.
Speaker 1:There's a good book by the author Tony Dungy that I have mentioned before on the podcast, co-authored by an old friend of mine, nathan Whitaker, and it is entitled Undefeated. I think there are two different books and have a look at them. It is about how to learn to live one's life for God as an undefeated person, even though there are times in life which kick us all. I wrote a note to myself Lord, whether we are standing in triumph or kneeling in defeat, help us to see you Heal our hearts, renew our minds and guide our steps. Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat. May today be filled with victory for all of us, not just the lionesses, and I think I may go to London and check out the parade, cause I think it's going to be a big party up there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it'll be brilliant. It will be brilliant, excellent. That's great stuff. Thank you, chris, and thank you for those who are listening. We look forward to catching you at the Fantastic Inga.
