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CoffeePods
A series exploring Christian healing in a handy coffee-break sized podcast. Plug yourself in, pick up your mug of coffee, and let's go.
CoffeePods
Why Caring Fades: Secular Drift, Spiritual Hunger, And The Hope Of Healing
The conversation starts with a gentle but unsettling question: are people rejecting God, or simply forgetting to care? We trace how indifference eclipses denial, and why that shift matters for anyone trying to live a meaningful faith in a distracted age. Instead of blaming “secularism,” we unpack the mechanics of drift: rigid institutions that stop listening, worship that feels like a show, and a digital ecosystem that trades attention for outrage until hearts go numb.
Drawing on Pew and World Values data, we look at the rise of the “nones” across the US and Western Europe and the generational dip in belief and attendance from Brazil to Ireland. Philosopher Charles Taylor helps frame the moment: God isn’t denied so much as deemed irrelevant. That reframes the task. Relevance is not louder branding; it’s embodied care. We talk about Jesus’ margin-first posture and how integrity and participation in worship can replace performance and cynicism. Hypocrisy repels; humble honesty attracts. People can tell who actually cares.
The episode also explores the spiritual cost of doomscrolling. Algorithms surface the worst of us, creating a fog of anxiety and spiritual fatigue. We share a story from the Isle of Iona—a “thin place” that becomes a detox for the soul—and practical ideas for curating attention, seeking retreat, and recovering presence. Along the way, we quote Elie Wiesel on indifference, and Augustine on restlessness, to recover a hopeful lens: many who seem apathetic are actually weary and longing for wholeness.
Our takeaway is simple and demanding: become healers of indifference. Listen without an agenda. Practise hospitality that makes room at the table. Live prayer, not just say it. If this resonates, share it with someone who’s tired of the noise, subscribe for more thoughtful conversations, and leave a review telling us where you’ve found a “thin place” lately.
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Coffee Pod, a podcast of the Acorn Christian Two Foundation, exploring what's happening in the world.
SPEAKER_00:Well, hello everybody. Um, I noticed Lisa looks a little different today. This is actually not Lisa, this is Callum, who is actually my son. And I've been pestering him about a few things so much that I thought, you know what, this is worthy of a standalone coffee pod. So uh we've done a coffee pod bonus episode today, and uh wanted to share it with everybody because I want some wisdom from somebody under the age of 30. And uh so Callum's agreed to jump online here with me and talk about um a very interesting and maybe a little bit controversial subject. A little bit. So welcome. Yeah, fantastic. So the the kind of the theme today is um the world is not so much rejecting God, but the world is forgetting to care. So there's there's kind of the beginning, and I'm gonna I'm gonna lead you with a question that's gonna start a conversation today. All right, let's do it. Have you noticed a shift in societal tone toward Christianity? Have you noticed a shift in societal tone toward Christianity? Are more people becoming indifferent toward religion, relationships, and hope? Nihilism opposing faith, indifference challenging hope? Are we just forgetting to care? So that's a whole lot. That's like a smorgasbord of subjects that we can talk about. So let's let's dive in. Where do you want to start?
SPEAKER_01:Well, um I'd I'd like to start with that. Uh I think a component of those questions, talking about what secular means. What is being secular? So uh, if you can have a go at that, maybe I can chime in after.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, secular is about non-religious. So it's kind of the living life without um without a religious core or religious plumb line. Secular just kind of means that you derive right and wrong and uh morality and goodness and all these things without religious principle. Secular means worldly non-religious, uh, it relates to things that are independent of religious influence. So that that really is kind of the core of what secular means.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And do you think, do you think, piggybacking on this thought, that we are seeing a rise in secular thinking?
SPEAKER_00:You know, I some people argue that, but I think there's more religious thinking. It's just not in the classical sense. So in the old days, the Victorians, everybody, you know, they they figured out their worldview through religious institutions. And and so the church and um the synagogue and all these places of worship were a core part of someone's um experience of the world and how to live. I think now you have a whole lot more people who have access to technology. I don't think they've lost their curiosity about all things divine and what is there out there beyond this great world. Um, but I think that their choice of whether to engage in religious institutions is probably the very interesting thing because they can pick up their phone and watch five different sermons on any Sunday from churches around the world. And so this is something that even 50 years ago you couldn't do. To engage in religious expression, you had to actually physically go to places and participate in things. I think the world is completely different now.
SPEAKER_01:I I think I'll push back a little bit. I basically agree. But I think uh I feel like saying that um it it it's easy, especially as a young person, to kind of assume uh uh that there is this great uh uh rise in secularism and that indifference is the source of indifference is secular. And I don't think that's necessarily fair, but it would be easy to slip into that way of thinking. And so when I see the word secular and we look at these questions that indifference is challenging hope, and it's easy to blame secularism for that.
SPEAKER_00:And uh I wonder, is there any blame uh to be to be put on the the the a secular way of thinking or religious people just as um blame is a tough word, it's kind of a loaded word, because I think the reality is not um why are more people, you know, why are more people taking public transportation? Well, because there's better public transportation to get you from A to B. And so do I blame public transportation for more people actually using it because it's good and it's efficient? Or do I say there is a reason, there's an obvious reason that people are choosing different ways to move between concepts and ideas? So the blame is on the institutions for not being elastic, because when the institutions become very static and very hard, then they refuse to listen to society, especially when secular non-religious ideals in the political realm suddenly clash with religious ideology, and so then you suddenly almost have a war going on, and that's when people will say, Well, I don't want this church business because these people are nuts, they they stand directly against so many things that really really matter.
SPEAKER_01:Do they become indifferent to church, you think?
SPEAKER_00:That there's there's the slide. I mean, I think that was the thing in your opening question that you had me read. Um, the indifference, I think, comes when the religious institutions and the leaders decide they don't really need to listen to the wisdom brought to them by people from the margins. So when young people, when people from the margins come in and say, Hey, I've got something I would like to contribute to the discussion, and the religious leaders say, We don't really want to listen to you. We want to teach you, we want to mold you, we want to shape you, we want to show you what you're missing. And those young people say, Why don't you let me show you what you're missing? And so those two ideals clash. And my guess is indifference is what happens when you've asked and asked and ask, and you haven't been invited to participate. You you've kind of been shown as not being wanted, and then you just go, Well, the heck with you. I don't need you. Sunday mornings, I'll go have a latte. I don't need to have anything to do with you. You guys are crazy. Yeah, is the that's the pattern.
SPEAKER_01:Right. It it it's so it's it's fascinating. Do you think that the tension is necessary? That that because the balance almost feels like a tension, the young people pulling uh away from uh a more traditional older group, um, uh people moving toward a secular way of thinking from classical religious institutions. Is that tension necessary uh for us, or is there a way to does this make sense, this idea of the thing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think tension's the issue. I think what happens when you have this trend to indifference, um, I think what typically happens is that the religious expressions that are out there become more rigid and fundamentalist, and the indifference becomes greater and more vehement, and people and so the people that don't need religion become adamant that they don't need religion, and the people who are religious become ultra religious. Should we be playing tuga war? I mean, that's that's and and I think that's the mistake because I think if you're really following, you know, I'm in the Christian context, I'm a Christian, and so I think, well, what would Jesus do? And that sounds kind of trite, and but what would Jesus be doing? Jesus would be saying, Come come over here. I I want to hear you, I want to hear everybody. You know, he actually went to the margins, and and so a lot of those scripture references about when did we see you, when did we, you know, listen to you, when did we serve you, these are things that arrogant Christianity um fails to do because it feels like we've already got all our answers. So we don't really need to be talking to those Samaritans. We, you know, we don't have time for that. We are on our way to do what God has called us to do. And and Jesus actually is radical. He says the only thing that really matters is the things that you do in between your appointments. You know, it's kind of this radical Christian message that um we spend all our time planning our ministry and what happens in between the things we plan, like Sunday services, the things that happen in between are often the things which are the richest ministry, which really change lives. Um, but you know, that's that's where culture and and the giant church mentality um will push back and say, no, no, no. The worship of God and the experience of God in these big arenas and these big experiences of God in buildings, that's what matters. And I think maybe you know, you have to tell me, but your generation seems to really not be all that into um the big show. I think there are a lot of people that like the big show in religion, but I think you guys smell you smell hypocrisy a mile away. And so the minute you smell a middle-aged man being a hypocrite, you're on it. And uh and it's like there is no mercy for a hypocrite standing up preaching at a bunch of young people who have cell phones and access to AI.
SPEAKER_01:I I it's a it is a it's a tough thing. Um uh I'll speak for myself, being young and uh and looking at uh the church as an institution. Uh we have a we have a quote here written down that I think it's it'd be an appropriate time to to feed into the conversation. This is from Ellie Wiesell. Uh, the he wrote a few books, the Holocaust survivor, um wonderful, um, wonderful writer and a powerful story of survival. And he wrote, the opposite of faith is not doubt, it's indifference. And I think that really speaks to me. Uh, when I think about my faith journey, about me showing up to church on a Sunday, I'm fighting that urge to be indifferent. Uh uh that's for me what's what's going on.
SPEAKER_00:And so indifference, you're fighting indifference, you're not fighting whether you have faith or not, you're fighting whether you care about these other people. Is that what he's saying?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And I think uh growing up with the church, uh and you've worked in the church for many, many years. That's right, you got a double whammy with two two parents who are both ordained priests. That's right. And I think people, as we both know, can rub you the wrong way. And that's that's the rub uh uh for me. It's not me in my own head, it's what's going on around me. It's it's when I acted, uh I'll I'll be brief, but when I acted um during my university time and uh with a small theater company, um rehearsals, building the set, all the hustle and bustle that goes into a show, that's not that fun. It's hard work. When you step out on stage, it pays off. And I think for me, church can feel quite similar. There's all this hustle and bustle, people fluttering around, but sitting and praying is what it's all about.
SPEAKER_00:Interesting. So, what if the you know, using the same metaphor? What if the performers in any good show? What if you know the lay mez in London up the road here is celebrating four years and there's all these exciting things going on? What if this show, which talks about Jean Valjean and faith and injustice and survival and raising a child that's not your own, all these amazing themes? What if the actors involved in that wonderful show? What if they really never cared about moving and stirring the hearts of the audiences that fill the theater every night?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think I think it would look like I'm not gonna name name churches or name people, but I think you can see that in churches today every Sunday. And they kind of lack passion.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, they they're just selling tickets, filling seats, and selling ice cream, and you come in, you do your job, you do your curtain, you know, your bows, and you leave the show. And but you're not changing lives. And I guess, you know, I I love the theater analogy because you're right, it's a lot of hard work. But then when you do when you do have an experience of putting on worship where you lead worship on a Christmas Eve service or Easter morning or something like that, and you really do care about the message of the gospel, then the idea is they see the integrity and the fact that you really are not indifferent, that you are you are simply trying to convey your deep love and affection for Jesus Christ, and that in itself is infectious, and so those who gather then become a part of the drama. And that's what I love about liturgy is that liturgy is participatory, that they're not just coming to watch les Miz, they're coming to be swept into the chorus of the worship of Almighty God. And so, how can you be indifferent when the story includes you, when you are actually one of the featured characters in the in the show? And and I think that that and that's the problem. I know we we said we when secularism shifts, it becomes oppositional. You know, and and so um you have people that will suddenly get their heels dug in and then they start fighting against well-meaning good people who then become further entrenched. And I think that's the breakdown we have in contemporary religion today, where the religious people, well-meaning, get entrenched, and the apathetic, indifferent people get entrenched, and they start throwing bricks at each other across the divine.
SPEAKER_01:I'll say this don't if you dig your heels in, you're gonna have a hard time walking alongside the people you you're trying to love.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. You're not walking anywhere, are you? If anything, you're you're playing tug of war and you're dug in, refusing to be, you're immovable, you're entrenched, all those things, you know. It's yeah, let's think that's the world that we live in. You're pointing out the fact that we there's a whole lot of people that have damage, you know. We talked about this, Lisa and I did in the last podcast about spiritual abuse and stuff. There are a lot of people that have experienced abuse from religious institutions, and that damage has created an indifference in them. They say, The hell with this, I'm gonna have anything to do with these religious people, they hurt people. I don't want anything to do with those um, you know, those Bible bashers. And that's why maybe this podcast can say, hey, wait a minute, there's another way. There's actually the Jesus way, which which is love and and generosity and not indifference.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think um now would be a good time to dive into a little data. You want to dive into some data really quick.
SPEAKER_00:Let's talk about it. Tell me what's going on in the world. Have you looked up some numbers?
SPEAKER_01:So that here's some numbers. We have I have three three data sets to share.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:So this is uh from Pew and World. There are the nuns, as they call it, the non-religious people will say. Uh there are O-N-E-S, no religion. Okay. Right, right. So 30%, 30% of adults in Western Europe and 28% of adults in the USA uh say that they are not religious today.
SPEAKER_00:That's a huge shift. I bet you in the last 50 years, that has gone up twice, double. Yeah, that's a huge number of the population, 30% of the population to identify as not being religious is enormous.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but but it really is. To add that doesn't mean they're not spiritual, that doesn't mean that they are secular, purely secular, but it does mean that there has been a shift, a major shift. So here's another thing in Japan, over 60% say religion has no importance in their lives. 60% huge.
SPEAKER_00:So really a secular society.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh, pretty much. Um and here's the the third one. Even in uh traditionally Christian countries, uh namely Brazil, South Korea, Ireland, young adults report declining belief and attendance. So there is, it seems to be that there is uh with that with this data, and you can Google it and find a whole bunch more, there is a a dramatic decline in religion as a whole, not just Christianity, but uh but Christianity.
SPEAKER_00:So you could, you know, you could argue the the field is ripe for a revival, and and I don't mean to sound like a raving evangelical, but I think sometimes when things are dry and feel fallow, it's a time for great things to to happen. And I think the young generation, your generation, and the one that will follow you, I think is um deeply curious. I think that there's going to be like a circle where we come back around to those you know days in the 1950s where people were really curious about faith, issues of faith. The access of AI will mean that lots of the questions about faith and the reliability of facts and the you know the curiosity about religion will suddenly be right in our face. And I think that's not gonna produce greater doubt and secularism. I think it's gonna swing it the other way. And I think suddenly we're gonna find the next generation of leadership in the world will be people that are actually quite sympathetic, if not to religion, to the principles of religion, the bedrock of love and inclusivity and justice and peace and all the fruits of the spirit we read about in the New Testament. Those things will be core values within governments around the world, I believe.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and you you had a good quote uh that I saw you wrote down from Charles Taylor. I don't know if that's a good time to read it. Yeah, read it. So uh this is a quote you shared with me from Charles Taylor uh from his book, A Secular Age. We are living in a world where God is no longer denied, but where his relevance is questioned.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And and I think young people that I encounter will quickly tell you, oh, I believe in God. I believe there's something out there. Yeah. Um, but then they question things like, well, why do we need a church? Why do I why do we need these religious things? Why do I need to pray? So that the question of relevance becomes the question, not the question of whether these young people actually believe in God. Yeah, yeah. And people do just describe themselves as spiritual but not religious. I hear that quite a lot from younger people. Yeah, you know, I'm spiritual, I'm just not religious. And I look at them and say, Well, I'm not really that religious either. And they say, But you're a priest. How can you say you're not religious? And I say, because I believe Christianity is not a religion, I believe it's a relationship. That when I'm a Christian, what that means is that I'm in relationship with Jesus Christ. And so that that to me is is not just a religion. Religion is kind of a box within which you play in an organized life. Relationship is a living, breathing relationship with a living God, you know. So that's kind of how I look at it, and that makes me maybe a little bit of an oddball, but that's where I am.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I I mean, you know me, I like social media stuff and and following trends and tech, and and I think um there is an element of distraction uh every day when you open your phone, you get distracted. I the last episode I was on, we went into digital media, and so I don't want to go too far into that, but right. It's hard, and maybe you can help me with this, because I'm surely not the only one to uh uh silence the noise or um or uh focus on what's really important. And so when we're talking about uh kind of fighting for our faith in a sense, uh how do we how how are we supposed to do that when you open TikTok and you're flooded with everything but but stuff that's gonna help you?
SPEAKER_00:True. I mean, we we did a course about a year and a half ago, we did a course through Atrium Health in in Charlotte, North Carolina. We did a course on loneliness. And we actually got a bunch of chaplains together and we looked at at loneliness and also mental health struggles, and we talked about the correlation between those two factors and the decline in faith communities. And so we were finding ourselves thinking, of course, in the hospital world, this was about dealing with patients who come in in a mental health crisis. And how do you minister to them as a chaplain? But then I thought deeper than that, there is a growing isolation in a world that is so connected more than it ever has been. So you have this weird juxtaposition between the immediacy of communication between all human beings on earth and the growing disconnect between human beings. And that to me is so fascinating that in the days when you had to write letters and wait five days for them to read them, you know, you you had um a very interesting way of relating to other human beings. Today, you wake up in the morning and you immediately send a message on Snapchat or some other messenger device to another person who may be in Southeast Asia. And there's this immediacy in the communication, there's no lags. And then when you take that and turn it into news, then every bad story that's in the world can find you through an algorithm. Every nasty, unjust arrest, every piece of racism that's being filmed, every negative thing, every car crash, every horrible news story of someone getting shot and killed, every story of a fundamentalist, crazy person of your own faith gets put up there on the internet, and there is an immediate access to it, and that undermines your confidence in your own walk with God. And so that is the digital distraction, that's the chaos, the noise that I think creates um, I guess you could call it a spiritual numbness that suddenly I'm kind of spiritually numb because I'm just looking at this sea of chaos. Yeah, every day I doom scroll and I'm like, oh my god, this is overwhelming. And so for me, I've you know, I subscribe to channels with donkeys that like squeaky toys, yeah, or silly, silly guys that work in fast food restaurants who like singing, you know, karaoke. Um, stupid channels with fun things, people doing loving things, generous things, because I I get overwhelmed with with the negative. I can't allow myself to start believing that God is not still good and that humanity is not still good. And I'm afraid social media right now is trying to rob an entire generation of belief in the goodness of human beings.
SPEAKER_01:I uh if can I share a quick a quick story uh to go on this thought? So a couple years ago, I was living in the USA, as were you, and uh social media, this was right after COVID. So social media really was not the best place to hang out in. Um, and I and I felt trapped, to be honest. And to speed up the story, I ended up through a couple of Zoom conversations and I would say God and coincidence, uh combination of both, on the island of Iona, the Isle of Iona. There you go. A little uh inner Hebride island, uh right off the island of Mull.
SPEAKER_00:And you know it well. You're telling this story, and your screensaver on my right screen is the Abbey at the Isle of Iona. Yeah. Yeah. So looking at Iona as you tell me the story.
SPEAKER_01:You're seeing the sheep and the beauty.
SPEAKER_00:Um exactly right in front of me.
SPEAKER_01:So some of us, we uh download an app or set a timer on our phone so that we don't use Facebook for uh more than an hour at a time. My solution uh almost two years ago was to go to Iona and and basically as um as St. Brendan did, an Irish saint, to open my sales and say, God, take me wherever you're gonna take me. And that sounds a bit radical. It kind of is radical. It's awesome. Um, but that's that's where I was mentally. I just thought, all right, I'm I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna end up where I'm gonna end up. So I ended up on Iona and um uh cut to the chase, it changed my life. Um it changed my my prayer life, it changed the way I saw things, and it broke me of the kind of daily dopamine hit that I needed from social media.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's detox. I mean, you really are describing going to a rehab. Um, you know, people sometimes people need a rehab experience from social media, from the connection to the doom scroll. And I think it's awesome that, you know, I I'd love to think that in the next 15, 20 years that the world might rediscover retreat centers and the mentality of instead of just going on cruise ships to drink for seven days, that they would actually find meaningful places to go and pray and be in community with other people who can live and be quiet and put their phones down and just feel the breeze blowing. You know, when you're on top of Dunnee and and you look out over the water and you, you know, and you see the the peace and you feel that cold air blowing, and you just think, God is still in heaven and and he is here. You know, I think I told you George McLeod said a long, long time ago on Iona that the top of Dunnee was the thinnest place between heaven and earth. And when you stand up on top of that hill on Iona, you really get a sense that you were so close to heaven. And it's and it's a wonderful thing. And I'm glad you got the experience and I'm glad that it changed you.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I think um, I think I'm young and um maybe a bit naive for saying this, but I would hope that those listening to this podcast today, tomorrow, in the coming days make uh take steps to to climb their own Dunny, their own hill, and have that moment where the the this holy wind brushes across your face. Because it's transformative and and that can look different, I'm sure, for every person. Uh, but I I hope and pray that we all can have that sort of experience. Because what you just said, I've experienced. I can still feel the wind on Dunny, and it changed me.
SPEAKER_00:That's great. Isn't it great? It's just wonderful. I can I'm sitting here now imagining looking out over the north end of the island, and I can see the water. And and the crazy thing was, just a few days ago, I was in Belfast. I was preaching at a church in Carmani, um, just north of Belfast. And from that part of Ireland, you can almost see the coast of Scotland. And you know, I sort of imagine St. Columba sailing from Ireland over in the coracle over to Iona. And uh all of these things are about a journey. And and um back to the the subject we're talking about today. I think secular indifference is a defense. Posture. So if you're kind of feeling under attack from whatever, from religion, or from anything, or from something that makes you think I've got to change the way I am, secular indifference is a foxhole you can go into to avoid any kind of pain and disillusionment or the hypocrisy that you might see in religion. And let's face it, it doesn't take long to find hypocrites. And then there's hypocrisy within ourselves that pops up every now and then. We have to catch ourselves making sure that we're consistent in the message that we preach. And so, you know, I work with Acorn Christian Healing Foundation, and you've been gracious enough to help us out with re redoing our website and doing some branding and stuff. And I think one of the cool things about what we do at Acorn is we're an organization that that is actually meeting head-on this indifference and this pain and disillusionment, this sense of distance. And we're meeting it head on with compassion, with relationship, with with acceptance, with love, and with an invitation to wholeness and an invitation to be healed by God Himself. And to me, that that is um that's something that's really good and it points people in the right direction. I don't know if it's going to fix the world, but it might fix the world for one person. And um, and I think we really do need to offer healing to an indifferent age, which we live in, and uh you know, and and reframe indifference. If we reframe indifference, we can make it a cry for wholeness. So, what I was trying to say is that many people really aren't hostile. I I think that's a mistake when you hear religious leaders talk about the hostility of people that are indifferent or who are secular, but I just think they're kind of weary, they're tired. Um, so healing for them begins when we listen and we love without a kind of agenda to try and fix them or change them. What do you think?
SPEAKER_01:It's kind of hard to conclude this podcast because I I want to keep going, and perhaps that's that's a what maybe we should how we should end it is to encourage everyone to keep going. Um that this conversation is probably a lifelong one.
SPEAKER_00:Um it's uh Absolutely, I think so. I think there's a fantastic quote because you say this is a lifelong uh journey for us. Um one of the great early church fathers, St. Augustine of Hippo in North Africa, he said, Our hearts are restless until they find their rest in you. And so I think we are a bunch of restless people, and we long for rest. And I guess I hope that a restless world, rather than becoming indifferent, will actually find a home in the arms of God.
SPEAKER_01:Don't dig your heels in, keep walking.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So to become healers of indifference, we have to embrace empathy, we have to find hospitality, and we have to live prayer, not just pray for and at people. We have to embody prayer with our very lives. So maybe, maybe a prayer for us would be to say, Lord, awaken us, um, awaken uh in us a quiet compassion for those around us who might have grown indifferent. And Lord, when we become indifferent, Lord help us never to uh to fail to drink from the cups that are all around us every day. Um, and and maybe most importantly, help us to see people around us in the world who are indifferent, not as lost souls, but help us to see them as longing people, longing for fellowship and community and belonging. Um man, can you imagine a world um where people are so dang tired because all they do is love their neighbor? It sounds like a lot better place to me.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we're not lost. I'm gonna hang on to that one. Yeah, not necessarily lost. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, thanks. Thank you so much for uh for joining me on this little journey today. And and I I didn't even say that you're in uh in the beautiful Alsace country in France uh today, talking to us from the beautiful wine country of France. And uh so I'm so delighted that uh that you were able to pop in and and share some some great wisdom for us, and uh, and hopefully people will get another coffee pot from Lisa and myself here in the coming days. And uh, but even though it's you and me and not Lisa and me, we still want people to like follow. Hello. All right, and hello to Simeon and Volco, your two beautiful fantastic. God bless.
