S.7 Ep.8: Rethinking Black Locust

Black locust doesn't have many fans among foresters in North America. It's often criticized for growing crooked, spreading aggressively, and producing poor-quality stems. But is the problem really the tree, or is it how we've been growing it? In this episode, Zsolt Keserű, Ph.D., Head of the Department of Plantation Forestry and Senior Research Fellow at the Hungarian Forest Research Institute, University of Sopron, shares how decades of European research and silvicultural innovation have made it possible to grow straight, high-quality black locust timber. Join us for this episode of SilviCast as we talk about the genetics and management practices behind successful black locust plantations, why the species has become such an important hardwood in parts of Europe, and what North American foresters can learn from that experience. If you've written off black locust, this conversation might make you take a second look.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:08

Welcome to Silvicast, the podcast on all things silviculture. I'm Greg Edge, retired silviculturist with the Wisconsin DNR Division of Forestry.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

And I'm Brett Hutnick, a Wisconsin DNR Silviculturist, still working until BMP stands for Urban Management Practices. And we're your host for today's show. Howdy do, Gregor. Ready to go?

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Oh yeah, come on in, Brad. I'll be ready in a couple minutes. Uh have a seat here in the living room.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Ooh, Cassa Edge. Is that a patchouli diffuser? I've never seen one made out of a Birkin stock before. Uh hey, don't touch my stuff.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

All right, right. And anyway, I want you to come in the backyard here. You gotta check out the new stonework I put in last summer. Giddy up.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Hey, what what are you guys doing here? Hey, is this some kind of surprise party? Let's see. Susan, Tom, Devish, Eli, Colleen, Heather, Carmen, Corey. Wow, everyone is here.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

Well, it's kind of a surprise, Brad. We're all your friends, right? Sure, sure. Wait. Wait, what? Well, and as your friends, uh, we're worried about some of the choices you've been making recently. What wait, what? Brad, Devish found this in your van the other day. Do you recognize it?

SPEAKER_01 1:34

Yeah, yeah. Black locust biology, culture, and utilization. That's a classic. It's a conference proceedings focused on resurrecting black locusts here in the U.S. You know, black locust is a good tree. It's just gotten a bad rap. Oh boy.

SPEAKER_02 1:49

Uh Brad, we're worried about you. This is how it starts. First, you're a little curious. Then you get the charismatic pitch. Next thing you know, you'll be paranoid about locust bore coming for all your trees. Wait, wait, wait, have you seen a locust bore here?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Oh, it's worse than I thought. Well, lucky for me, this week on Silvicast, we get to dig into this. Our guest this week is Dr. Jult Kesheru, a senior scientist, experimental station manager, and head of the Department of Plantation Forestry at the University of Stopron in Stopron, Hungary. Dr. Kesheru is a noted expert on the silviculture of black locust. You know, it's not a perfect tree, but it's not the devil either, Gregor.

SPEAKER_02 2:34

This isn't working. Hey, Carmen, get the electrodes. Thank you to our seasoned sponsors, Family Forest Carbon Program and Nelson Paint Company. You make the Silvicast world go round.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Dr. Jolt Kesharu, welcome to Silvicast. Now, I'm guessing most of our listeners haven't heard of you because you're kind of in outside of the sphere of the people that normally listen to Silvicast. So for those not familiar with you, please tell us who you are, where you are, and what you do.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

Thank you. My name is Joel Kasharu. I am a senior research fellow at the Hungarian Forest Research Institute of the University of Chopron. I work at the Pishpöklodan Experimental Station and Arboretum. Pishpek Lan is a small town that can be found in the eastern part of Hungary. I have been leading the Department of Plantational Forestry since 2016, and since 2024, I have also been serving as the director of the Pishpek Lani Experimental Station and Arboretum. My primary research fields include the development of growing technologies for plantation tree species, besides agroforestry research and afforestation challenges on marginal sites.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

I noticed in getting ready for this episode that you've done a lot of work with black locusts in the past.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Yeah. I think we can say that black locust in Hungary can be considered as a based uh tree species regarding the plantation forestry. And black locusts, I can say that the most important uh and prominent tree species in Hungary. Because it covers more than uh almost uh half million hectares of the total forested area.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

Greg, I don't know about you, but that's kind of wild to me because like when we see black locusts in Wisconsin or wherever I've been, I'm not sure people go, oh, let's plant some more of that.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Yeah, Brad and I have had an argument about black locust a little bit. In Wisconsin, we're outside of the natural range of black locusts, but people have planted it here for years for fence posts or erosion control. And so many times people are you know trying to get rid of black locust here. So Brad's fascinated by the species, so we thought we should talk to you today to find out how people actually use this species.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

So it's and I find it fascinating that when we want to talk about a species that's native to the United States and how it's utilized, we're actually talking to someone in Hungary who's done a lot more work with it. So that's just it's a a really interesting world.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

A little ironic. So I think, Brad, you have some questions right up front so we can kind of get the ball rolling.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yeah, and maybe this one Joel, you can tell me if this is right or wrong. True or false. Black locust was the first tree species introduced from North America to Europe at the beginning of the 17th century.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

That's exactly. So at the beginning in the 70th century. Yeah, and uh initially people grew it as an exotic ornamental tree. Black locus is one of the most important fast-growing, stand-forming tree species in Hungary, and its importance is increasing in many countries today. The species itself is indigenous to the eastern and central part of the United States, between latitudes 43 degree and 35 degree north. I can say that its wood material can be used a lot of different purposes. It can be used wood production, honey production, ornamental purposes, and lucky that there is a low incidence of pests and diseases in Hungary.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

It was first brought over, you said, as an ornamental tree, but then they started to use it for all these other purposes.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah. In Hungary, while present all over the country, its largest contiguous populations are found in regions with loose sandy soils. So the black locust in Hungary requires warm, loose sandy soils. In Hungary, there are two different main growing regions of black locusts, the the sand ridges of the Great Hungarian plain and the Transdanubian hills. The most extended locust black locust forests are located in the Kishkun Shag and Nirch regions. Kishkun Shag can be found between two big rivers, Danub and the Tisa rivers, in the middle part of Hungary, and the Nircheg region can be found in the northeastern part, close to Ukraine and Romania. So in the in the Great Hungarian plain, it was massively planted during the eightieth and the nineties centuries, primarily to stabilize shifting windblown sand dunes. Soil protect proposites.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Erosion control, yeah. That's interesting that you planted mainly on those loose sandy soils.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

You know what's interesting in doing a little research on this, a lot of planting, like say here in Wisconsin, was done during the starting in the 1930s as a response to that same thing, like erosion control efforts. And so it was kind of introduced based on evidence of success in Hungary, where black locust was used for that. So it's another place where we were looking to Hungary for guidance on black locusts.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yes. As I mentioned earlier, black locust has played a role of great importance in the forest management for more than uh 300 years. Today it's covering uh almost half a million hectares of the total forested land and providing about 20% of the annual timber output of the country. Wow. In Hungary, in the lowlands characterized with forest cap climate type, annual precipitation is not more than 500 millimeters, most of which is outside the growing season. Thus, drought is a frequent phenomenon in the summer period, coupled with a very high atmospheric temperatures. And due to these facts, about 40% of the black locus stands in Hungary grow under marginal site conditions.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

So it's interesting. So you're growing it on maybe not the best sites. You know, you're growing it on those marginal sites, you're growing it in sands, which is similar to conditions we might see here in parts of the United States and in other areas. But you guys are still working with quality in those sites, right? So it sounds like you guys have done a lot of work to improve the varieties that you have or the genetics that you're working with. And so you've identified different cultivars and done a lot more work on that. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

I can say that in Hungary, the black locust selection uh programs, we can say about two different uh selection programs. The first one was implementing uh in the 1960s, uh, was led by uh Bela Karestashi. He was uh an academician, I think the biggest uh black locust researcher in Hungary. So the first selection program uh were uh in the 1960s. The main goal was to select new clones and cultivars, providing good quality and volume of industrial wood. According to the basic selection goal, cultivars can be classified into three groups. The first groups, the main goal production of looks suitable for show milling. So the target product was the show looks. The best cultivars uh are uh I will say its Hungarian name, uh Nir Shagi, Kishkun Shagi, Yaskisheri, Ulloi, Epalachi, Penz Penzes Dumbi, Roitok Muzai and Gori.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

So Brad, can you repeat those please? I'll memorize them for later. Yes, yeah. Those are saw log cultivars, Zolt, is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 11:55

Yes, uh Shaolak's Shoulag, yeah. The stem form was uh straight and the growing rate was very high.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

And then there are cultivars for other purposes too?

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Yes. The other groups, the main goal of selection was production for poles and probes for the agricultural using. Main products I can say that pit props, wine and orchard props, fence poles, hope poles, and so on and so on. And uh in these groups, the best cultivars is following uh Zoloi, Soiki, Richikoi, Chasar Turtishi. So so it's it's the Hungarian name, of course.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

It is interesting when you mention the posts. My experience here is that a lot of like and Greg, you mentioned it earlier. I've seen a lot of farms here that had locusts that they used for posts. Back when I was in the field, we had operations where we were trying to eliminate it, but there were pot producers here that would actually seek out locust because it was fairly inexpensive. They didn't have to get a pressure-treated pole, they could use that locust at a fraction of the cost. And it was really rot resistant, so it was really good for those purposes.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yes. Black locust has an excellent wood material because its wood material is really durable and hard. We can use it for a lot of different purposes. Yeah, yeah. And the third goal was uh improvement of bee pastures and decorative planting. Best cultives uh rosacine artsy, Hungarian Rosacine, in English, pink. Pink. It's it's a color.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Pink, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, yeah. Debreceni, debriseni harumnight match, and so on and so on. And uh some cultivars are suitable for both forestry and honey production. Such a double-use cultivars, for instance, zoloi, kishkunshagi, chasa, egg levelu, and ish awati neglevan hotush uh uh uh egg levelu uh one-leaved black locust.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

It's interesting, Greg, maybe you've had this experience, but when the locusts are blossoming here in Spring Green, like you know it, like because you can smell it every place. And I remember turkey hunting a couple years ago where I fell asleep, and I woke up and the wind shifted, and all I could smell was the the locust blossoms. It was like I woke up in Bermuda, it was fantastic.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yeah, it's very strong. It's interesting, Jules, that Hungary has done so much work to breed for saw log, the straight form that you're talking about, because here our black locust, at least my experience, has been very poor form, so it's very crooked, very difficult to get a good solid log out of it.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Yes, uh very interesting. Uh there are a black locust group, uh Robinia pseudoacatia variatas rectissima, a so-called sheep must tree, sheep must stem form. And it's very important from the selection program point of view, because uh in the past Baylor Carastashi and his colleagues uh selected such a stem form which had a very straight stem form, sheep must stem form. So they selected these trees and uh established uh with these a lot of different experiments, and these stem form uh very suitable for uh show locks production.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

If I got it right, some of the cultivars that you guys have been working on, some of them I think are coming back to the United States, or people are buying them and bringing them over here now, too. So they're basically bringing it back in a better growth form. I think here they're using it in agroforestry, so they're using it for a lot of different purposes. But it's fascinating that you know there's this interaction of locust not where it normally grows, but somewhere in Europe where they're doing much better work with it than we are here. So it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

I was in the US one time in 2017. I was Virginia Tech Blacksburg.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Blacksburg, yep.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

There I've met uh Dr. John Fyck. He organized and collected a lot of uh leaf samples uh for providing us these samples, and we can uh started a genetic testing in our institute. So here I would like to say uh many thanks for Professor John Feich. Without whom comparative genetic testing uh wouldn't have been possible.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Those studies are always very interesting. And Joltz, because Hungary is working with these cultivars, I assume many of the stands of black walnut are established through tree planting, artificial regeneration. Can you say something about what does that look like in Hungary in terms of tree planting? How do they establish plantings? What is the spacing look like? What does that initial planting look like?

SPEAKER_00 17:21

In Hungary, uh black locust plantation can be considered as uh the traditional uh saviculture, and uh the other group, the industrial wood plantations. According to the traditional black locust stands plant uh planted, the planting spacing is uh 2.8 by 0.7 meters. Black locust stands planted for industrial purposes, the planting spacing is uh wider. For instance, three by one point five meters.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

So there's two different planting spacings, kind of your standard, and then the industrial you're saying is that wider spacing.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:13

Are those industrial plantings for saw logs mainly?

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Yes. So the advantages of the wider planting spacing is lower seedling costs, of course, and wider row spacing, allowing trees to reach target diameter size much faster.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

I suppose that allows you to do less early interventions in the stand then, too. You can just plant it and let it grow for a while. You don't have to come in and do some release right away or things like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Yeah. The traditional afforestation and reforestation of black locusts, the goal is to produce locks posts or high-quality firewood fuel. Yeah. And of course, the initial density is really high. Uh 4,000 to 6,000 seedlings per hectare is used.

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Once those plantations are established and then managed, is the next rotation oftentimes regenerated through copice then, or is it replanted?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

According to the traditional saviculture of black locusts, the rotation period is about uh 25 or 30 years. But in the case of industrial black locust tree plantations, the rotation period is lower. It's only uh 15 years.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Wow. Somewhere, Greg, someone listening to this, to their ears just picked up and said, wait again, wait, that that's pretty short compared to what they're working with here in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yes, because a very important uh step, because uh usually in the industrial uh tree plantations, uh using a very intensive cultivations, I mean uh irrigation, nutrient supplement, and pruning, and so on and so on.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

With those 15-year rotations, what is the size that they're growing those two?

SPEAKER_00 20:09

The diameter at breast it's about 30-35 uh centimeters, and the height of trees uh can reach the 20-25 meters.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

Okay. Are those being used for poles at that point?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Yes, poles and probes.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

It's great that foresters can talk the same language in terms of like diameter at breast height. We just Brad and I just have to do the metric conversion in our heads.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, I was just doing that. The uh 35 centimeters is uh it's almost 14 inches. So it's right in that small saw log kind of range for what we would see here.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Of course, uh, these uh parameters can be reached under optimal site conditions.

SPEAKER_01 21:03

Season seven of Silvicast is made possible thanks to sponsors like the Family Forest Carbon Program. The Family Forest Carbon Program pays landowners to improve the health of their land and increase the long-term value of their property. The program equips landowners with resources and support to implement sustainable practices that help them reach their own goals for their woodlands while also improving the health of their forests and our planet. To learn more about how you can access these benefits for our forests, visit familyforestcarbon.org.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Are some of those plantations then cut and coppice back so they allow them to just uh re sprout?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yes. Regeneration and uh afforestation of black local stents can be down by coppicing or by planting seedlings.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Is it common to use coppice in Hungary on the sands?

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yes. According to the traditional black locust cultivation, yes, yes. The management of black locus copice forest is a key aspect of Hungarian forestry, especially on the Greek Hungarian plain. Black locust possesses an extraordinary vegetative reproduction capacity, making it the primary species for copice management.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

So when you're doing it in that maybe in those traditional places, you're doing it with copice. Are there other species that get mixed in in those stands? Are these really just pure black locust stands?

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Yes, uh we we can use it only for black locust stands because there are uh two different copies method.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Yep, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

For instance, root suckers, regeneration from root suckers, and stamp spruce. But the stamp spruce are not too very good method because these grow from the remaining stamp after harvesting. They grow extremely fast in the first few few years due to the existing root system, but are more prune to hard rot from the old stamp. So functional infection can be occurred. Yeah, yeah. But the but the root suckers, these emerge from the shallow lateral root system, they are highly volued because they develop independent root systems quickly and produce high-quality straight timber.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

From what I've read, you go back into those stands then after a copice, you actually go in pretty quickly to start working on the thinning and establishing and identifying trees that you want to grow in the long run.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, we can do uh so-called uh uh tending tending operational methods, yeah. So thinning and uh clearing in the first few years, yeah, according to the tending operational method, and we can say about yield classes. The first and second yield classes of the final harvest volume can reach 218 to 380 cubic meters per hectare under optimal site conditions.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

So high volumes. Do any of those stands do you do pruning for quality or is pruning not necessary?

SPEAKER_00 24:30

It's a very good question. Pruning is a critical step, I think, because to reach the quality of the wood material, I think we have to prune the stamps. Yeah. And it's very important the time pruning. I think we have to do that early spring or late uh winter.

SPEAKER_01 24:53

So you've pruned the stands, and a lot of these that were starting with copice, are they then thinned at some point before the end of their rotation, or do they just grow them to the end of the rotation at a higher volume?

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Yes, sir. After the clear cutting, we can regenerate the baclocus plantation by poppies, or after uh total soil preparation, we can plant by seedlings.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

So site preparation and then replanting them again. It's really interesting to talk to you about the species that many of our foresters try to get rid of, but you are managing it very intensely for a whole wide range of products. So it's just a really uh interesting difference from what we do here in the lake states. So you're going to get Brad starting to grow black walnuts plantations.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Well, I don't know if we'll grow plantations, but we might not ignore it. I think here in the United States, Joel, I think we have a love-hate relationship with it. I think some people I think more now we're seeing some people really kind of thinking about it, but we've seen it kind of, and I've read about it in Western Europe and other places, they talk about it like that invasive, you know, the the weed that that gets established every place. You guys, though, you've been able to approach it and actually concentrate on the good qualities and then basically producing new cultivars and then being intensive about your production, which uh which seems to avoid a lot of those problems, at least in for you.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

The perception of black locusts in Europe is highly polarized and represents one of the most controversial topics in modern European forest and nature conservation. As you mentioned, a lot of people can be considered innvasive tree species. It's a classic example of a conflict between economic utility and ecological preservation. A lot of people say that the black locus is the enemy of biodiversity. From a strictly environmentalist and EU liberal conservation viewpoint, the black locus is classified as an invasive alien species of significant concern, and the oceanological street conservationists' critique is it because it spreads aggressively, displaces native European tree species, for instance like native oaks and beaches, and alters soil chemistry because it fixes nitrogen, it enriches the soil which destroys sensitive nutrient-poor native ecosystems like carcass grasslands. I can say that the European regulations is very strict regulations. The EU has strict regulations regarding invasive species, discouraging their planting and funding projects to eradicate them from protected areas, such as Natura 2000 areas. But Hungary, I can say lucky, Hungary stands out in Europe as the primary defender of the black locusts. When the European Union considered placing tire restrictions on these species, Hungary successfully lobbied against the total ban. So maybe you know that uh in 2014, the Hungarian government declared both the Hungarian black locust and its honey uh as Hungaricum, granting them symbolic national protection.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

Which is fascinating. I mean, because that's that's kind of really embracing something, but it but it's been around for so long in Hungary that it's effectively, you know, almost like you might consider it native in a way there, the way you're using it.

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yes. Really it's very important re-species in Hungary. Because, for instance, in the eastern part, in the Nearshake region, a lot of people live from black locusts uh growing. So it's very important three species.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

Economically. Do the products get shipped out of Hungary to other places, or are there restrictions in the European Union on that?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

I think in case a lot of different countries uh the situation is similar, considering the black locust. But I have to say that today, in the age of uh climate change, the interesting uh to black locust growing is increasing uh continuously in many countries too. For instance, I can say we have a really good uh uh professional relationship, uh, for instance, with uh Korea, uh with uh French, Germany, Serbia, Bulgaria, so a lot of different uh countries. Interesting, and uh coming to Hungary for a study, the Hungarian black locus uh cultivation.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

It was interesting, Greg, in preparing for this episode. We don't see it here, but you guys, Hungary, you're the leader in working on it, but like just like you mentioned, it's like one of the most common plantation species around the world, which is just fascinating. It's got this whole story outside of our experience here, and we know nothing about it.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Jules, you mentioned that there's a renewed interest in the species, maybe from a climate standpoint. So is the outlook for black locust good under climate change scenarios?

SPEAKER_00 30:53

We can say that uh today uh black locusts, at least in Hungary, side conditions, can tolerate the negative effect of climate change. I mean that black locusts can tolerate the dry sandy sites and uh can tolerate the high uh air temperatures. It requires the well-erated and loosy sandy soils, but black locust also can uh can plant it in the heavy compact uh soil types, also. So the the site plastic is very very wide, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:32

A wide range, yeah. That's what I would think of that species, and like you said, from a climate perspective with hotter and drier conditions, that seems like it would fit. So maybe people's impression of the species is they're rethinking it, as you said, in many different places.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Yeah. Today more and more uh colleagues call us uh from the uh northern part of Europe, for instance, Germany, uh United Kingdoms, and so on and so on, because uh, of course, the the climate in these countries will be similar than today in Hungary.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

It's always interesting to talk to someone who's an expert on something that I know nothing about. I'm guessing a lot of foresters in the United States have had had a perception of locusts that you know maybe this is something that or we just we start with the negative outlook. If you could give advice to foresters who are kind of maybe rethinking it or just looking at locusts for the first time, or you know, like talking to North American foresters about it, what would you what would you want to tell them? What would be something you'd want to leave them with as uh something that you would say, here's my advice on black locust?

SPEAKER_00 32:44

That's a key message to deliver to North American foresters who are uh thinking black locusts it would be, for instance, the following the genetic selection. The genetic selection and intensive silviculture are the difference between an invasive V tree and the industrial gold. While black locust is still widely viewed in North America as an invasive kruged and low-volution species, European and particularly Hungarian forestry has proven that targeted management can transform it into one of the world's most voluable, naturally durable and chemical-free hardwoods. I think personally that the genetic selection and the breeding work is very element and important. And the other one, if I can say that the management cannot be left to nature. For instance, the European experience shows that the best defense against pests is explosive early growth driven by intensive silviculture. And I think that uh foresters, and uh not uh only in North America, but uh I think all over the world, the foresters must recognize that black locusts is a pioneer species, pioneer tree tree species. It is highly tolerant of shade and cannot regenerate or spread inside a closed major forest canopy. Yes, I think uh it would be the the important things and step.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

Brad, if you're gonna take that step, in North America we have a lot to learn yet about that species because Hungary is much further ahead on that.

SPEAKER_01 34:32

Well, you know, Greg, part of this discussion comes from looking at a lot of sites where we have locusts growing, and and this is my personal experience. We've done a ton of work to eradicate it in some places, but they're very degraded sites, they're very degraded forests. We don't I don't see a lot of black locust in high quality, high-value sites, at least in my experience. And so we spend a lot of money to treat all of this dump and to try to make sure it comes we don't get it. But then because it it's got the it's that legume with that with the seed coat that makes it sit in the soil forever, you still have a ton of seedlings that come through. So it's very hard to eradicate. And so Greg, what's the the song? If you if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with. So in some places here, we might want to consider is there a way to work with it and are there benefits or are there things we could do to to actually use it instead of you know pouring m tons of herbicide on the and but it's it's all on a case-by-case basis. It's not every place. There are lots of places where it's maybe growing in a prairie wouldn't want it, but if it's a but maybe maybe a lot of landowners here wouldn't have the the wherewithal to kind of to try and eliminate it even if they wanted to.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Unfortunately, due to the negative effect of climate change in Hungary and uh I think of course uh in other uh many countries the the pre breeders have to find such uh other tree species that can be planted uh under Hungarian side conditions, for instance, because uh unfortunately in the future we can reach that era when uh black locusts cannot tolerate the changed uh side conditions, for instance. So we have to find the uh native tree species, indigenous tree species, that we can uh plant uh the under the uh changed side conditions.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Well, that's a great challenge for all of us. And Jolt, I really appreciate you um coming to speak to us about one of our own native species, which we don't know I know which we don't know much about. So it's really great to share that knowledge with us. So so thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Jolt, yeah, again to to reiterate, thank you. I Greg, next time we're together, we will uh raise a glass of and and Jolt, I'll probably get this wrong, palinka. Uh-huh. And we'll do it in your honor, so it'll be good. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's a Hungarian brandy.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

And Greg, maybe we'll flavor it with locust blossoms. It'll be better yet.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Yes, a palinka is as well hungarikum in Hungary, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Yeah, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Different fiwit palinkas, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Thank you very much for your kind invitation and uh it's it's really honored for me. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Thank you too. Yep, thank you. Thank you. Greg, that was a really interesting conversation. And you know, in preparing for this, in reading some of the literature that comes out of Europe, I noticed that they used terms that maybe we don't use very often, so it's kind of really cool to do that. So you're thinking about terms, are we? I'm thinking about terms, so you know what that means. Yep. I'll cue up the still dictionary music here. All right. Well, or you're gonna ride the silver source, right? So the words I was thinking of were low forest and high forest. Okay. Now you probably think of a high forest as you know, like when you're out there and you're working and the trees start to talk to you, you know, and you've got that kind of you've got maybe that cannabis alley cropping going on.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

I was thinking more of my friends in low places, sort of low forest. That's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yeah, or maybe just you know, doing stuff like that. But in actuality, so high and low forest actually refer to the origin of the stand. So a low forest is a forest that's basically of coppice origin. Okay. Some kind of think of like our aspen stands would be low forest. Okay. Um, maybe some of you know, any place that we're using that. But if we're looking at seed origin uh for our stands, then we would be or basically a planted stand, then we would be looking at something like a high forest.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

And so historically authors would use that distinction in trying to talk about the origin because some of these might be used for different purposes. So low forest could be more intensively managed, or maybe didn't have that if they weren't worried about diversity. They they were basically just worried about getting something quickly out of that stand over and over.

SPEAKER_02 39:21

What if it's a forest that originates through a combination of coppice and seed?

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Then I guess they would have to take their pick on that, wouldn't they? Oh and actually you don't hear about that very much. It was interesting. We asked Dr. Keshiru about what I'm always curious about is there must be some combination, even in Hungary, of other species kind of slipping into those, say those copuses that they do on at some point, they must be there.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Yeah. Oh, I'm sure, but it sounds like you know, much of that management is very intensive, right? Plantation culture. So, you know, it's probably uh other species get eliminated, I would think.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of interesting just to think about, and I don't use those terms, but now I think I had to go actually the reason I brought it up here is when I saw it, I had to go, wait, what are they talking about? So one less mystery in the world.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Yeah, and you see it a lot of times when you read old stuff, um, particularly as you said, from Europe.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for listening to today's episode of Silvacast. If you have ideas for future episodes or a question for the drop box, please let us know. Greg, have you seen any questions in the drop box recently? Not recently. Not recently. So we could use more questions. Send us ideas, send us thoughts, send us artwork you're working on, send us anything you want. Okay. Send us beer. Well, we'll do anything. We'll take it. The drop box is big. Uh you can reach us at UW Stevens Point Wisconsin Forestry Center by emailing wfdsp.edu. Uh feel free, if you have a question or if you have any thought at all, to create a sound file of your comment or question, pass it along, we'll put you on Silvacast. And I think that would be pretty cool, Greg, if we could get one. We've used that line how many years? Have we ever gotten one? No, we've never gotten a sound file. No, we have not. So you, if you're listening to this, you could be a pioneer, you could do that. And always remember, we learn best when we wrestle with questions.

SPEAKER_02 41:35

So please keep them coming. And take care, everyone. And as always, thanks to our team, our executive producer, Susan Barrett, Joe Rogers, editor and IT Jedi Master, Theme Music by Paul Freder, and of course, UW Stevens Points, Wisconsin Forestry Center.