The Fine Line: Discrimination and Personal Choice in Hair Care

Bree and Cassy discuss possible and historic prejudices in the hair industry, and the difference between that and a clients individual preferences, along with many other points.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome back to Philosophy of the Barber. Hello, Cassie. Hello, hello. Welcome back to another week where we're talking about topics. This week's topic, uh, I came across the scrolling of the Instagram and one of the professionals uh asked an interesting question that I saw and I thought was worth talking about. And their post uh from Bottle Blonde76, she asks, uh, do you feel the industry favors men? Are they the better cutters? Um, I kind of wanted to pull back a little bit from that, and we can cover that, but yeah, yeah. Also, like talking about uh prejudice and favoritism in general, whether it's client to professional or uh employment environment or um the the industry as a whole. Those types of things. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Um I feel like my brain automatically navigates to more the the gender side of things. Sure. Because that is something that I'm easily my brain easily can relate to that just from even minor experiences. Like in my first shop, um, I had a gentleman who preferred female barbers for the comfort of his experience, and he was very respectful. It wasn't even like it was in a in a creepy kind of way. Right. You know what I mean? It wasn't just because he was trying to have a woman's touch, but in a way that is what he wanted. He felt more comfortable, he felt like he could relax more via sitting with a man versus sitting with a man. And so I thought that was very interesting, and that's something he touched upon from the jump, like when I was gonna like reference him to another barber when I left there.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

I'd say more often than not, I've had the opposite. Uh, in my early years of barbering, there were select uh men who would come into the barber shop and specifically wait for one of the male barbers. Um I think that was probably more of a maybe a generational thing, but also that was before the huge influx of crossovers and women going into barbering. Yeah. So that's kind of changed. And I haven't had that in a lot of years.

SPEAKER_05 2:23

Well, and I will say I was I was shocked when he was so um open about having that like preference. Because I didn't I certainly didn't expect it, even though I've been in the height of the big boom of women in the industry. Like I've been that I was a part of that, I've been in the industry almost four years now.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

I do also think that depending on the woman's haircut they wear, it also has an effect on people's preference. Like, I think somebody's a lot more willing to sit into a female barber's chair or a female haircutter's chair uh who wants a shortcut if that female has a shortcut. Yes. Which is, I mean, I can kind of understand that because we are our own billboard. But at the same time, we're not cutting our own hair the vast majority of the time. Yeah. So it's very much like, oh, the whole, you know, riddle of there are two barbers in town, one has a really great haircut, the other one has a really crappy haircut, which one do you go to?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

But as far as um like employment situations, I the first barber shop I worked at full-time was uh owned by somebody who had an opinion on the subject that initially, before I started working there, was totally against having a female in the shop. Now, this was a shop that was uh military, police, and fire themed.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

And it was based on his family and you know his background and all of that stuff. But that was that was his opinion at the time, and I just would go and hang out and watch my friend who worked for him part-time cut uh, you know, a couple days a week. Yeah. And I got to the point where like my friend, for whatever reason, couldn't fill in during a weekend, and I was like, I can cut. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was like, seriously? Like, can you? Sure. Why not? Yeah. So I was able to do that, and you know, it was a little bit of a test. And I worked for him for almost a year. And by the time I left, his opinion had done a total 180. He's like, honestly, I would not want to continue to own a barbershop without a female working. So I was I love being like a catalyst to like change people's perceptions and prejudice.

SPEAKER_05 4:41

Yeah, oh absolutely. Absolutely. And see, I didn't really it's interesting, the I didn't deal with a lot of um difference like that because like I said, I came in with the boom of females in the industry, even more so into the very first shop that I went in. The ratio was way female dominant. We had two when I started there, we had two male barbers there, and one of them was the boss, so he was only part-time to the six women that were there.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

I feel like that might also be indicative of the educational institution that your employer had a relationship with, as well as where they got the lion's share of their students from for the barber program. Because as I said, you went through with uh a lot of the insurgence or resurgence of females, but crossing over. Like your entire barber class were crossovers, right?

SPEAKER_05 5:42

Yes, yeah. So it was an all-female class.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

Yeah, so I mean they're getting two programs out of you instead of one. Yep. Whereas um my barber class was twenty percent female. So, like, pretty average for what one would expect.

SPEAKER_05 6:00

Realistically, that's about the percentage for the barber class that was there at my time in the crossover program. Yeah. I think there was three girls to the twenty something.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Sorry, I still consider that a big class.

SPEAKER_05 6:17

How big was your class?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Uh, twelve. Oh, okay. Full time. Because there's only twelve stations in the school. Uh, there also have been other establishments who have gained reputations over the years about generally having that discouragement of females to work in their establishments.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

Oh, yeah, there was um a pretty set rumor on one of the shops that came to visit us in my crossover class. Um in fact, the comment was even made, I'm not sure why they're talking to our class if they're not gonna hire female barbers. And the establishment, I guess, has a hair salon in the upstairs area. And that his I believe his wife owns or runs, however. And so when asked about if he has female barbers working there, he said that he hasn't, but that um it's because they normally just end up going upstairs. And I was just like, so you're talking to the barber crossover class for your wife?

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Like, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Well, that really is the question of like, are you trying to give yourself plausible deniability? Like, are you trying to I don't know not be visibly like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like have it continue to be like a hush-hush rumor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:45

And just a coincidence that all you guys work here.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Right, and have for the last 15 years. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm not a fan of people that are not direct. Yeah. And that doesn't seem very indirect to me. And I certainly wouldn't want to be represented as a as a barber professional by somebody who has that opinion. Yeah. I'm wondering if there are any shops that like do the opposite, like places like uh sports clips or you know, those that have like the we'll say the Hooters style business model. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm wondering if they like actively will only hire females. Or it's like, yeah, we'll hire a male, but you gotta wear the uniform.

SPEAKER_05 8:30

Yeah. Yeah, because I've only ever seen females in there.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

But it's also like indicative of the the natural ratios of who enters cosmetology school, because I'm sure that's the majority of what they hire.

SPEAKER_04 8:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Just like supercuts or hair excitement or any other chain, gray clips, you know, all those. Because I mean, the industry is still, especially in this area, dominated by cosmetologists as far as licensure goes. Like even like when I became a barber, there were 12,000 hairdressers to like a thousand barbers in the state.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

So it's a twelve to one. Now, those are licensed, it's not necessarily saying they're actively working in the industry.

SPEAKER_05 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

But still.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

Yeah, it's still a lot.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

And I'm sure the ratio for that has maintained, even though uh barbers like license have gone up, because you do have to remember that there's a lot of crossovers that hold both licenses.

SPEAKER_05 9:28

There's still technically lots of licensed cosmetologists, though. Yes. So for every crossover there's one for each side.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yep. But I don't think you get nearly as many barber crossovers to cosmetology. And it I kind of actually wonder, does Empire even offer that kind of a program? Do they have a crossover program for cosmetology?

SPEAKER_05 9:48

Hmm. No. No, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

It's the only only one.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

That's a little prejudice, isn't it? Yeah. Or maybe it's like, oh well, there's not a market for it.

SPEAKER_05 10:00

Well, no, in theory, because of crossing over that way, you would need the whole cosmetology program anyways.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Why?

SPEAKER_05 10:07

Oh wait, no, never mind. If you did Master Barber Never mind. I'm forgetting that they comped my scores, so I didn't redo a lot. I was thinking about like all of the things that I did during barber school compared to, but I forgot it's because they took all my grades.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:24

I wasn't counting my crossover.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Cause all Master Barber would have to learn would be the nails and makeup portions.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Because I'm sure the the legislation covers like going both ways. You just need the 300-hour um crossover.

SPEAKER_05 10:40

Yeah, it'd probably be some weird divvy up for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Right. Well it's I mean, when you've literally covered everything else. 300 hours isn't that long. But what was your crossover program hours? 500? Five or six hundred?

SPEAKER_02 10:55

Five hundred.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah, I've and that's a a business decision. Like I feel like there are some programs for schools that go a little bit more hour requirements for their program than what the state requires. Yeah. I've seen that in different things before. What does the state require? For crossover, 300 hours. Oh, okay. Minimum. Yeah. Which is not a lot of time. But I mean, for going from cosmetology to barbering, technically speaking, shaving's the only thing you have to learn.

SPEAKER_04 11:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

So 300 hours between the chapter bookwork and on the floor practical clinic hours. As opposed to two chapters that we would have to cover for cosmetology. Though I feel like it's a probably at least with the makeup, aside from sanitation and basic application skills, like that's that's a low risk thing to learn. Oh yeah, for sure. Unlike shaving, where there's like, oh no no, you really gotta learn technique. Yes. Otherwise, cuts happen. Yeah, they do. Males, though, would be the higher risk one as far as that goes, I would think. Yeah. Fungus and sanitation.

SPEAKER_05 12:10

Which unfortunately, my brain is one of those brains that really caters to the whole if you don't use it, you lose it. I don't hold on to information that I don't need anymore. So, like, nails, no no no. I don't that part of my license is basically non-existent. It's it's like it almost didn't even happen. The information that I know about nails are things that I've known about nails. You know what I mean? It's like the the hardcore stuff about nails. Is which uh for girls, a lot of that is the basic knowledge. Like if you've ever gone and gotten your nails done, you've watched the process and seen what's going on. But like the diseases, the the all the different weird things that can happen to your nails. I know what can happen. I don't know what it's called.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

Like none of that is couldn't answer that test question.

SPEAKER_05 13:04

You in fact, it's a good thing we don't have to like retake a written to like renew our license. I mean, don't get any ideas.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

It just means that uh you don't offer services of which you are not confident in your skill set. Correct. We just don't do any of that stuff. I know somebody asked me if I did perms uh the other day. A couple different times, yeah. But this this was an older lady, um you know, the historic demographic for perms. Yes. Not the new. Uh and I was like, uh, I'm sorry, but I though licensed to do them, I am morally opposed to giving perms. I refuse to put chemicals of that strength on people's heads.

SPEAKER_05 13:52

Yeah, it's intense.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

I would also want a like commercial grade air filtration system if I was ever dealing with perm fumes or nail stuff.

SPEAKER_05 14:02

Yes. It's too much, especially the perm stuff that used to tear up the school. I hated perm bay. For no matter who was doing it, because it didn't matter because you smelled it throughout the whole school.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

I would I think it reminds me more of like going to the high school uh science wing and just the smell of formaldehyde permeating the entire corridor. Only it's herb solution.

SPEAKER_05 14:31

Yeah. It's funny, what it reminds me of is when so we live near a lot of phosphate mines down in Florida. So that means the water in the area is very phosphorus, which means it smells like rotten eggs. So when people have sprinklers in their yards, it's just spraying that phosphorus water all over the place. So you'll just be driving down the road past someone's house and just get a whiff of all that. That's what perm solution reminds me of.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

I can I could understand that, sure. Just with a tinge of burnt. Sulfates. Yes. God, yes. Ammonium thyoglycolate, solve it.

SPEAKER_05 15:18

Mm-hmm. More words I don't retain.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

You don't use it illusion. You know why I retained that phrase?

SPEAKER_05 15:28

Legally blonde.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Oh my god. Stop. Some things you just don't forget.

SPEAKER_02 15:36

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

So, what other examples could we think of of possibility of uh showing prejudice in in the industry? Someone in in uh Bottle Blonde76's comments on her post mentioned the number of products you can think of that are a man's name versus the number of products you think of that are woman-owned that aren't a woman's name.

SPEAKER_05 16:02

Ah. Now I'm like racking through product names in my head.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

I mean the first one that pops into anybody's head is Paul Mitchell's. Yeah. 100%. But like guys will use their name. Yeah. Whereas women are looking to build a brand that is separate from who we are. Like somebody will, you know, open up a barber shop and call it, you know, Moe's barber shop because it's Mo. All the time. Yeah. But or, you know, Rick's or anything like that. Yep. Whereas I always wanted to make sure that I opened a shop with a brand that was separate from me. That way it was more able to be sold to somebody and still retain its own identity without my presence.

SPEAKER_05 16:44

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Because polished and proper was always polished and proper.

SPEAKER_05 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

I didn't have to be there for it to continue to be that.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05 16:53

Whereas Rick's is weird because there's no rig.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Anymore, yeah. Rig is sold and like that's not the only Rick's barbershop I know.

SPEAKER_05 17:01

Like, I know because there's a couple different rigs.

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Well, and there's also like we're in this little tri-state of tiny states. Yeah. So not everybody registers their trademark nationally. Is that a thing? It c yeah. So the the podcast is registered. Oh, cool. And trademarked and all that. Cool. But most people only have to do with their Secretary of State's office.

SPEAKER_05 17:26

Um, quick side tangent. Did you know that um a lady was trying to get a passport for her daughter, and she named her daughter after a character off of Game of Thrones, and so they denied her getting a passport because the name was trademarked.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

That's odd.

SPEAKER_05 17:41

They ended up having to jump through a bajillion hoops, they ended up getting it, but it was a process. What happens when you name your daughter Khaleesi?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, but at the same time, like a trademark should not be infringing upon people's name. Correct.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

I feel like that should have priority.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's the I I I'm not part of the screen actors guild. I'm not like not getting profit off of having this as my name. I like that child had no control over that.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

Birth certificate. Well, are you gonna pay to get that changed? No, because I don't want to change my name. Yep, done. So I get that. What other examples can you think of?

SPEAKER_05 18:23

Well, not so much a prejudice, but like it is interesting how often, no matter how many times I say barber, no matter how many times my name is Barber Shop for my shop, no matter how many times it is out there that I am a barber, that I'm always called a hairstylist for the sake of just me being a woman. Yes. It it literally does not matter. Super common. So many people I mean, a lot of people call me a barber, but a lot of people also do not. And sometimes it like peeps me a little bit. And I will say one time, um, this was just a man on the internet. A guy decided to message me on one of my dating apps I was on once upon a time. And he said, Oh, he's like, Do you mean hairstylists? He's like, I didn't realize women could be barbers. And I was just like, that's not a great way to start a conversation. We should we shouldn't do this.

SPEAKER_00 19:35

It's you're gonna start off talking to me by correcting me? Yeah. As though you know more about my profession than I do? Oh, is that a does that count as mansplaining? Yes.

SPEAKER_05 19:45

I think so.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

I will say that yes, I've had that over the years, but every time that has been said in my chair, I have promptly corrected them. I still have to do it once in a while. But for the most part, I think I've gotten that point across in my intimidating way. It works. It does.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Trauma teaches quickly.

SPEAKER_05 20:14

You're not wrong.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

I think I think that's unfortunately that's such a long-held belief. And I don't I don't think media helps that at all. Uh I I think it'll that'll always be around. Until people start educating themselves and people around them.

SPEAKER_04 20:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

I will say one thing about my clients, they're really good at educating people around them. Like once they've learned something, they're gonna share that knowledge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Oh, for sure. Make sure everybody gets the memo.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

That's part of the referral uh orientation. Yeah. Do not call her a hairdresser. Those eyes look round, but they are f stabby. Did you have any issues like going through school? Most of my issues were not really um gender-based, I don't think. Aside from like being at a disadvantage when it came to trading services with fellow students. Yeah. Like that is real. I mean, unless you have the luxury of either being on hormone replacement therapy or um like having CPOS.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

Then, you know, sorry, you can't shave me because I have nothing to shave. Until until the concept of my uh dermaplaning came in. But that was after my time. Like that didn't become a thing until after I already graduated all my programs. So like today, I mean if you want to get dermaplaned, it's a little bit different, but it is something you could offer as like a trade service. Because like I I wanted all the practice on shaving, so I wanted to make sure I did at least one shave a day. Yeah. All through school. Like probably. After the first. Once I got the green light to be able to shave, I did whatever I could to get one shave a day. And sometimes that meant I had two friends and had just alternate. They get a shave every other day. There you go, yeah, yeah. If I couldn't convince a client to get one. Yeah. And so some of my classmates felt as though I was hogging the shaves. But at the same time, they weren't, you know, hopping out of their chair to greet a client or you know, trying to talk them into getting a shave or like really putting forth that effort. Yeah. So those were more of the issues that I had in barber school. Not so much the, oh, she's a girl, she can't cut hair. But I also already had short hair. Like people could have haircut practice on me. Yes. Whereas the other two women had long hair. One started to get a little bit of a nape undercut, but um, like couldn't do a full fade on her.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Right? So a couple of the girls at my program also got undercuts.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

But like just little ones, just to have a little something. But like they couldn't offer any service other than a long haircut. Yeah. Which don't get me wrong, we needed practice on because the vast majority of the time we just had mannequin work for long hair.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

Yeah. You're one mannequin.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

But I I'd get had getting uh had short hair and gotten barber shop haircuts since I was a freshman in high school.

SPEAKER_05 23:29

Yeah. Yeah, I will say that was kind of one of the perks of barber school for me was the free haircuts. And I always volunteered to be someone's demo for like any time a barber was coming in from a shop to like do and talk to us if they didn't have a model already. I was like, I got you. So I used to get cool skin fades all the time. It's great. Love that. I will say there's been a couple times more so at the beginning, and I think it might have also had to do with like the confidence that I was emitting at that time because this was at the very beginning of my career. Um, but a couple old school people sat in my chair and almost like questioned if I was sure that I was gonna be able to do this. And again, I feel like one, yes, my gender was a factor in that, but also like I wasn't the most confident gal running around. But luckily, I feel like it's all since it has become more and more popular, I feel like it's just it's just kind of normal now.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

I definitely had some of the old timers question me, but I had the luxury of not having a lack of confidence from the amount of time I was at my school, the the the environment my school um produced, like all of those things that kind of factored into that. So by the time I was like cutting people in a shop, I was like, yeah, I got you. And I wasn't like taking offense to that question. I was just like, of course I do. Yeah. Yeah. What's your problem? Why don't you know this? Not I. Well, and it's fair, like uh I'd say the vast majority of people have that like growth that needs to happen. Yeah, yeah. And realistically, I would be concerned if people didn't have uh a bit of like self-consciousness because it means they're not open to learning anymore. Yeah. And especially in your first barbershop environment, you still need to be open to learning.

SPEAKER_05 25:31

Very open. I'm always so open to learning new stuff.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

We can get off of gender-based prejudice here for a second. And go with I wouldn't call it prejudice, but it's certainly marketing tactic. Left-handed people. The most discriminated against group of people that don't complain about it too heavily.

SPEAKER_05 25:58

Well they're your tools are more expensive, correct? Shears are more expensive. Shears are more expensive.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

I just I still don't like that um nobody's ever come out with an adjustable clipper for a lefty.

SPEAKER_05 26:12

No, it's not thought about.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Nobody cares.

SPEAKER_05 26:15

Suck it up. I feel like it would be better.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

To use your index finger to adjust the lever? Yeah, it would, wouldn't it? Yeah. So really it would be benefiting the righties.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah, really. That's what would happen.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Hey wall, take a hint. I have seen some uh ambidextrous adjustables, but they're like the the clicky uh twist ones.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Clicky twists.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

You've never seen an adjustable clipper that has their adjuster is on like the the neck.

SPEAKER_05 26:52

Oh interesting.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

I want to say Oster made one that I had for a bit. The the juice, yeah. It was called the juice. They had some really great guards for that one though.

SPEAKER_04 27:03

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

The guards were really great because they were metal teeth.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

The juice? That's alright. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Uh metal teeth with a plastic attachment part. Okay. But and they slid on rather than clipping. Yep, yep, yep. So they stayed a lot better, and it was metal, so it was it was way thinner to you wouldn't have to do as many passes to get all the haircut. I'm pretty sure I had that in barber school. And that was when like lithium ion was f first rolling out. And makes me feel old.

SPEAKER_03 27:39

Those are the batteries that blow up, right? Or had issues blowing up.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Well, it depends on the clipper we're talking about.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

Fair.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

If you're a styleclast uh user, then they had one issue with one of their clippers. Not that long ago. Really? Oh yeah, they're like blowing up on people's stations.

unknown 28:01

Ah. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Some sort of faulty battery sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

So I would freak out.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

They they made everything right though, I guess they rolled out uh uh an exchange and like part repair sort of thing. I mean, I would not trust that clipper again, that's for sure. But I mean, at the same time, I've also seen people's hair dryers, you know, blowing fire because they gotta shorten them. Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

I have a cheap blow dryer. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

I think as long as you keep hair out of it, you'll be fine. Just make sure you clean it. Sorry. Oh, well, alright, well, so we touched on this in previous episodes that I can't think of at the moment. But tell me if you consider this to be prejudice. Um the retail market in barbering is exclusively targeted to men. Hmm. Whereas, as you and I are evidenced of, there are plenty of females that have short hair.

SPEAKER_05 29:06

Oh yeah. Plenty.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

The same though could be said, and it's really the industry perpetuating the stereotype of women are hairdressers and males are barbers by the retail that they sell. Yeah. It's like largely, you know, Paul Mitchell products are typically towards women. Most salon products are towards women.

SPEAKER_05 29:25

And there's usually sometimes like a men's line. Right. Like the Mitch line. But like it's always much smaller, obviously. It's it doesn't even come to scale.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

Yeah, but I understand that from a marketing perspective without it being like gender prejudice, because the reality is men don't buy as many products typically. And women, or at least people with long hair, usually need more products to maintain whatever style they want that hair to be. Because the more hair you have, the more maintenance it is.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Whereas most men are wearing short hair, so they really like low maintenance low to no maintenance solutions. Yeah, yeah. So like a single product, or like hence the two-in-one creation and all that crap. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. But a lot of that I think is also a lack of offering or education, like in the case of my retail section here, like because I offer these other things to my clients, they get educated on what they are, what they do, and then they're interested in them, and some people are like, yeah, I don't I want that. So I guess it might be a question of more chicken or the egg, like what comes first, the the interest, or you're gonna create your line based on the statistics.

SPEAKER_05 30:45

Yeah. I also will say that it's interesting to see when women finally make the jump to going to a barber. Like women that do have shorter hair, when they make that jump to going from a hairstylist to a barber. It's usually I usually find it interesting to see that nine times out of ten, it's because the person that was previously doing their hair was wouldn't go short enough. Like wouldn't go as short as they wanted. But I feel like that those kind of things happening will also help, like, the female hairdresser thing as opposed to male barber thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

Yes and no in the cross.

SPEAKER_05 31:34

I think the client the cross of clientele also helps.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

I'll s I'll say yes and no, because it's it's evident that when those uh women go from their hairstylist and seek out a barber, the amount of relief that comes across their face when they discover that their barber is a female.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Huge.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

Yes. I will, yes. I can agree to that.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

While at the same time, if that woman would have sat in a male barber's chair, the likelihood of them turning her down also rather high.

SPEAKER_05 32:20

Yeah. I will say I didn't ever because I grew up obviously going to a salon, and so like salons still do men's cuts, and so like I never even considered like denying somebody based on gender to cut their hair. I didn't realize it mattered. But it doesn't matter. There's a lot uh yeah, correct, correct, it doesn't matter. Um, but there's a fair amount of barbershops that will not touch women's hair.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

And that's one thing that irks me to death. Uh not to mention the price difference. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's wild. Talk about prejudice. Yes. Sexism at its worst is the price point of most salons when it comes to men's cuts versus women's cuts. And I go, I'm getting the exact same cut as that guy. And I had to pay more than twice as much because I have indoor plumbing. Nice. I don't understand how they even get away with that now in 2024. Right. Right. Like you can barely have the different bathrooms at this point, but I'm still having to pay a totally different price. And bathrooms have a lot more to do with my plumbing than a haircut does.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Literally.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

Yeah, because I remember when my mom her hair was growing back out from chemo, and she, first of all, it came back super, super kinky, curly. She had no idea what to do with her little mini afro. And she had been going to a stylist down there for a while, and it just wasn't doing anything that she was liking or wanted it to look like or anything like that. And so, like, the barber that I was seeing was already kind of hesitant of my hair, but since I started there with a buzz cut, he he couldn't really fear that because like I was already buzz bald, like just work with what's there. But like, I had to almost kind of persuade him to cut my mom's hair, and then when he saw her hair and saw how short it was, was a little bit more comfortable, was but was still very hesitant, and I'm just like, treat it like you would any other haircut, like it's just a kinky, curly, short haircut, just taper it down, trim the top, but it was just like this whole almost like an unneeded pressure.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

I feel like. Do you think that has something to do with men? Like just men being more self-conscious when offering a service to a female than to a male.

SPEAKER_02 35:05

The pressure of the judgment of a woman.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Right. Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Yep. They have they don't want to be critiqued by a woman, that's fair.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Or, you know, if based on past experience they've had, you know, the unfortunate situation of being emasculated.

SPEAKER_05 35:19

Mm-hmm. Working with men is their safe zone. Love getting to pull in different sp perspectives on it being Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Well, I mean, gotta ask the questions. I think that we both have a heightened sense and focus when we have a female in the chair for the first time.

SPEAKER_04 35:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Because for the first time, like we're trying to get to know things because female to female dynamics are totally different. Totally different. So like we have to be on our A game and be very, very aware of details of the experience.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

So, like, I don't consider that to be prejudice, I consider that to be knowing how to, you know, operate with females. Yeah. Yeah. But like once that initial one is complete, we don't have that heightened sense in the future, because it's already been taken care of.

SPEAKER_05 36:10

Yes, agreed. Sometimes, honestly, for me, you can s sense the pressure, especially when they're in the waiting area. Like if you're still with a client and they have to sit there for a minute. Not that it's like a not that they're doing anything wrong, but like you can s you can feel the like they're watching you. Yeah, and like the the the tension almost in the room tightens up. And that almost changes a little bit once like the cape goes on, and they kind of just get to sit and relax for a second, it almost starts to like build that trust a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Well, especially when the consultation happens, because then then the communication happens because that's what's causing the tension prior to is like communication isn't occurring.

SPEAKER_05 36:57

And I feel like so many women have issues with women just as a whole, it's just the history of us, we're not nice to each other a lot of the time. And so I feel like I still instinctively run on the side of caution in that some people might not like me. And so I feel like if anybody has a similar mindset to how I used to, which is that nobody liked me, I didn't know what kind of female I was. You know what I mean? Like if somebody doesn't know what kind of female I am looking at me, but like once you once that consultation does happen and that communication does open up and you're just like, oh, you're just like really chilling down to earth too. We just we can we can just chill and vibe, and it's not gonna be some lady competition here in the room in the chair. It's like a safe zone.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:48

Nobody's at war in here. There's no one-uppers.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Yeah, no. I feel like most people like you though. You're you're a very likable person. I cannot say the same thing for myself. I am under no illusions that I am a for some and not others.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

An acquired taste.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

I don't even think that that's the case. I don't know as I grow on people as much as it's more of like either you can handle me or you can't. Like a fireball. I said a fireball, not a fireball. There's a difference. The candy, yes. I love the candy. Either you love it or you don't. And that's why you're still here. That's why this works. You can handle my spice. Do you think of uh any opportunities you had to maybe disperse with people's prejudice by being an example of like proving it wrong?

SPEAKER_05 39:00

Actually, a little bit. Um, I feel like there's sometimes a assumption that women are in this profession, like more geared on the barber side of things, to use our gender to our benefit and like sexualize the profession. Like better tips, better dirty men. Yes, being flirty, getting better tips that way, taking advantage of the fact that you do work with men all the time.

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Oh yeah. I you see that on Instagram of like the super tight pants and you know big booty and all that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05 39:35

Women that wear heels in the shop and stuff like that. Which no dig to them, if that's what you like to wear, more power to you. I don't wear that outside of the shop, let alone inside of the shop. That's just not my forte. Um, but I feel like that's an assumed practice for some people, and I like to prove them wrong in that aspect, and that like I'm building clientele based off of my communication skills with people and my ability to cut hair. It has nothing to do with how I look. It has not Okay. I can't say that for sure. It unintention it does not intentionally do with any way with how I look or how I present myself to people in any way, shape, or form. Um so that's a that's a point that I like to prove. In fact, my brother made a comment on it when he was here. I had um my brother was visiting town a couple weeks ago and he came by the shop and I gave him a haircut. And I'm like a jeans and t-shirt kind of gal in my shop. I'm very comfortable, very lax. I'm usually not wearing makeup majority of the time. And but like outside of here, I do wear short shorts, crop tops, all the things. I dress a little bit cuter and all that stuff. But like that's just not something I choose to bring into my shop. One for practicality, and two, I just don't feel it's professional. Yeah, it's just not necessary. Um and so my brother had made a comment that he was proud of me for not having my tits out. He was like, he was like, you know what? He's like, good for you. He was like, he's like, I wasn't really sure. He's like, but good for you for not having your tits out, cutting hair. I was like, you know what? Thanks, Dale. Hi, I appreciate you. Thanks for noticing.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Your sibling dynamic is entertaining.

SPEAKER_05 41:30

Yeah, that's just not but it is something that's assumed sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Well, we certainly covered the practicality of that in our clothing clothing episode of like, uh, hair splinters, you don't you don't want them there. Yeah. That is unfortunate that that would be assumed.

SPEAKER_05 41:49

Yeah, I remember one time a friend of I don't remember who it was, I can't even say a friend of mine, but somebody made the passing comment that we should get a group of girls together and wear just aprons and cut hair. And I was like, that's no gross really uncomfortable. Yeah. For me, for you, for everybody involved. Unsanitary. Yes. The areas of the hair we go.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Spoken like somebody who'd never cut hair before. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:22

Honestly. Somebody was like, oh yeah, that'd be a great idea. I'm like, for who? Who?

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Well, and then there comes like the insecurity of significant others. In the case of like what we have set up here when one of us is here alone, because we do have slightly different schedules. Um that's actually one of the reasons I put up Pierre. It's like it's not just for my safety being here by myself, not knowing who's gonna open that door. It's also like if heaven forbid there was a insecure partner.

SPEAKER_04 42:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

I'm like, yes, I'm here alone with your spouse. Yep. But you can drink the tape. Nothing happened. I cut his hair.

SPEAKER_05 43:06

And I feel like if you present yourself that way, it makes it more open to those sorts of things happening.

SPEAKER_00 43:14

Yes, it's much more. I want to say it's kind of like daring someone to say something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 43:22

And like honestly, I'm already a very friendly and like charismatic, animated kind of person that gets misconstrued for flirtation often. Men, just because I'm talking shit and a lady take my shit talking like I'm a man. It's not me being cute, like it's me talking shit.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

I I do feel like that's an unreasonable expectation.

SPEAKER_05 43:47

I know. I know. I'm just I'm just like to throw that out there.

SPEAKER_00 43:50

It's the this is what she wishes w would be the case. Yes, but I but understands that that is not reality.

SPEAKER_05 43:56

Correct, yes, correct. Um, but like So that's already something I have to be considerate of when I interact with people. And throw my cleavage into that mix? That is the last thing I need. We'll just keep all the bits covered, keep everything good, and we'll be fine. I do appreciate when sometimes I cut a guy's hair for the very first time, and the significant c other comes the next haircut.

SPEAKER_00 44:27

As opposed to the first one? Mm-hmm. Why do you appreciate it more when they come the second time?

SPEAKER_05 44:31

I did well, I say appreciate in the sense of uh gives me entertainment.

unknown 44:35

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05 44:35

It makes me giggle. Got it. Because they obviously liked the haircut and wanted to come back, but obviously the wife needed to see what kind of lady was going to be regularly cutting their husband's hair or partner or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Right.

SPEAKER_05 44:48

And then I usually never see them again. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Yeah. I have more of the um experience that either I meet the significant other and we're good and I'm happy to see them whenever they come. Um and they'll usually end up being people that refer people to me. Yep. Or I never meet their significant other. Ever. Ever.

SPEAKER_05 45:16

They're just in their own bubble.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Which is also fun. Oh yeah. Any other thoughts on like gender prejudice?

SPEAKER_05 45:25

No, I feel like it's getting better.

SPEAKER_00 45:27

Uh agreed. I mean, it's an uphill battle, but I think we're making progress. Alright, well, we will see y'all next week. Have a good night.