EP: 449 | The Story of de Soto and Mabila

On this episode we are joined by Dr. Ashley Dumas again and she explains the fascinating story of when Hernando de Soto's expedition met the Mobilian people in October 1540 at the Battle of Mabila in present-day Alabama. This violent clash—triggered by a hostage standoff with Chief Tuskaloosa—led to the destruction of the palisaded town and remains one of the largest, bloodiest battles fought on North American soil. As Gamekeepers, we love the land and this story intertwines over much of the South. Their survival and dependence on wildlife speaks to the abundance that was once here. She expertly tells the story.

Listen, Learn and Enjoy.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I am Jeff Foxworthy and welcome to Gamekeeper Podcast. If you want to learn more about farming for wildlife and habitat management, then buddy, you are in the right place. Join the Gamekeeper crew direct from Baltioak Land Enhancement Studio as they discuss the latest wildlife and habitat management practices. News, and of course, honey. There's no telling what you'll learn, but I'm going to tell you, I bet it's interesting. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

All right, everybody. We're talking about some really interesting stuff. We we last uh episode we had Dr. Ashley Dumas on uh from University of West Alabama. She taught us all about Native Americans and some pots, and it's Dudley's really it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_04 0:49

Yeah. It's getting to learn about their lifestyle and you know how they survived and thrived, all that cool stuff.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

And they were original gamekeepers back in the day to taking care of the the the habitat and hunting and fishing, and it was just uh it's interesting to learn about how they did things. It is. So we've asked her back. And uh Ashley, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

My pleasure again.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Well we uh uh Ashley grew up in South Alabama near Fair Hope, guys. She uh she teaches at the University of West Alabama, so you can go check out some of the papers she's written. She's a really interesting person. Uh I I guess a living uh version of a female version of Indiana Jones here live in our studio. But yeah, we've asked you to come back and tell us about this mysterious uh I don't Dudley, how do you pronounce the name of the city? Mobila. Mobila. And would you tell us about that in this the in this Spanish uh Hernando de Soto and uh all that that you what you guys have learned? It it seemed like there's a lot that's bubbled out lately, mate, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah, yes. In the past five or six years, there's been a lot of a lot of new discoveries regarding Hernando de Soto and his route through the Southeast. So DeSoto was a Spanish conquistador, and he um had originally been with Pizarro, Francisco Pizarro, in conquering the Inca in South America. So by the time he had his eyes set on the southeastern part of North America, he was experienced in um sort of subduing native peoples and extracting from them wealth and capturing leaders, and he was very wealthy himself as a result of that expedition in South America. Um so he got a contract from the king of Spain to come to the southeastern part of North America, landed in La Florida, and they sort of called the whole region La Florida. Um, of course, Ponce de Leon was the first one to land there in 1519. Um, DeSoto landed there in 1539, somewhere around present-day Tampa-ish. Um, he had um around 600 men with him, um all kinds of professions and skills, skilled traders like blacksmiths and priests, and you know, um uh there were some uh soldiers on horses, so there were some um uh horses as well. And famously he had a herd of pigs with him that they were to keep along the trail with them um as food.

SPEAKER_03 3:43

He must have had a bunch of ships to bring all that.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Uh there were several, there were several ships, yeah. It landed there and dropped them off. And um the goal, you know, in like fourth grade history class, you learn that it was God Golden Glory. And then that was the goal, right? To Christianize the native people, to discover gold and to get glory for the Spanish crown. But it's a little bit more nuanced than that. Um DeSoto was given very specific orders. He was given 18 months to go into the southeast, subdue the native populations, to look for any kind of wealth that could be extracted, not just mineral wealth, but you know, um perhaps agricultural wealth or um anything that they could they could find, and to construct forts on the coast, uh specifically stone forts, I believe, which you know they'd be a bit disappointed to look along the the northern Gulf Coast for stone these days. But um in any case, this was in 1539 that they landed and they made their way up uh generally through uh Georgia and into the Appalachians and then back down through uh northeast present-day Alabama and then on across into Mississippi. Um, eventually um finding the Mississippi River. DeSoto dies, and the expedition wanders for a little bit. They do end up in present-day Arkansas. Um, and in I believe 1542, basically the stragglers, uh, whoever's left of this of this expedition, um, make their way back to Mexico. Um overall, it was a failed mission. Um, they did not discover great mineral wealth, they were unable to subdue um you know, en masse the southeastern Indian groups, and they certainly didn't acquire much glory as a result of it. It was also an especially cruel expedition. Um, the Soto expedition was the last to use chain to um chain together um native peoples that they enslaved. Um they uh Soto himself had some uh mastiff fighting dogs that they would often use to chase down uh Native people. And as they moved through the territory, they would they would approach a leader who they perceived to be the leader, the chief of this of a particular territory, and they would make several demands. They would ask for information um about potential mineral wealth, they would ask for food, they would ask for women, and they would ask for burden bearers to help carry all of the the um equipment that they brought with them. Um sometimes they were received um with, you know, certainly with caution. Sometimes they were received and um entertained or for a a period of time. Um sometimes they were received with outright hostility from the from the beginning. Um but one thing that I think Soto came to learn is that it wasn't going to be easy to subdue Southeastern peoples because they weren't all of a one culture. They were they were not united under one king, say, like the some of the Inca territories were. They were, you know, um from one part of a river valley to another, you might have two completely different chiefdoms, which may or may not have been united.

SPEAKER_04 7:41

So it was almost like they had to start over every time they ran into a new group.

SPEAKER_01 7:46

Right, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

That was a big traveling party, too. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

Huge traveling party. And you got to think about, you know, um, there they're also they have these native burden bearers who, you know, many of whom are chained at the neck. So they're not a fast-moving party either. They're probably, by the time they got into a a new territory, they were had probably had been some warning that they were approaching, would I? Um so for many, many decades, one of the you know, favorite pastimes or serious, serious pastimes of a lot of historians and a lot of a lot of just you know, people who who've grown up in this area is to reconstruct the route of DeSoto through the southeast. And that route has um, it's important historically to understand where they were. Um, there are several ways you can go about doing this. There are written records from the DeSoto expedition. Some of them are secondhand, but some of them are firsthand. And they mention place names, they mention distances traveled, they mention days traveled between places, they mention major landmarks like major rivers or mountain ranges or great plains. Um, and so many people have studied all of this and um attempted to put together a route for the soto expedition through the southeast. Like a lot of things that are historically important, it has been politicized over the years. Um and um there have been soto commissions, de soto commissions funded by governments to to try to reconstruct the route. And um in some parts of uh, I'm sure you know, is uh in Mississippi as in Alabama, and you know, everybody feels like they could put up a sign in their yard that said Soto slept here, right? Yeah, so it's a big, it's a big deal. Um one of the turning points of the entire expedition was at a place called Mabila. Uh sometimes it's Mabila or Ma Villa or Mavila. Um but this was a a big native uh province or say chiefdom. Um and it's it's uh understood to be in present-day Alabama, and there was a big town of the same name within this chiefdom. And here Soto was was uh brought by Chief Tuscaloosa and they uh had a major battle on October 18th, 1540. Now, um Soto entered the the town of Mabila with all of their supplies, with the only evidence of any mineral wealth that they had found so far, which was um some freshwater pearls they had acquired from uh probably in present-day South Carolina. And um a fire erupted in the battle and they lost all their supplies.

SPEAKER_05 11:10

Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

So this is what we would call a Pyrrhic victory in that they won the battle, but they kind of lost the war. Thousands of Native people were killed in the battle. We don't have a close estimate, but several thousand Native people were killed. We never hear of Chief Tuscaloosa again. But the Spaniards are left completely demoralized and without all of the material that they had brought with them. So that was a major turning point. And it was such a big turning point in the settlement of interior southeastern North America that some people have said if it were not for the Battle of Mabila, if it had not been for this big resistance put up by Chief Tuscaloosa and his people and the fire, that we could all be speaking Spanish today. Because after the Soto expedition, there was not another uh expedition like that far into the interior and throughout the southeast uh until the French came in 150 years later, with one exception. And that is in the 1560s, Tristan de Luna left Mexico with several ships of colonists, um, men, women, and children, and entered Pensacola Bay and attempted to establish a colony there, but a hurricane struck his ships, and they lost many of their supplies. And um, they made a couple of inroads up the Alabama River looking for food before they too eventually had to leave. Um so the Soto expedition itself is extremely important in the history of colonization of this area. It was the first major expedition into the interior of um this, you know, this portion of North America. And the Battle of Mabila was a major turning point in in um in how how the story played out. So a lot of people have called the the location of the Battle of Mabila to be like the holy grail of Alabama archaeology.

SPEAKER_04 13:34

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

And and there's uh we've just always heard that there was like a maybe nobody would speak as to where this was.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Um sort of um near the Delta. Um, and then the other, and that's because um there have been some 16th century Spanish artifacts found in that area. The other leading theory, uh, or in my opinion, the leading theory and the correct theory is that it is somewhere in central Alabama. And um a lot of these theories hinge on how far, that is how many miles they can go in a day. So there's there's a lot of agreement about the the route until they get down into central Alabama. And that's where people begin to disagree about where such and such place was that was mentioned or where another place was that was mentioned and how far they march. Um, one piece of evidence that we've relied on are World War I infantry training manuals. How far can you march when you're fully geared up in a day in particular types of uh weather? And if you look at all of the scholarship on this question, and there have been probably a dozen different scholars who've who've researched it, the average is about 12 to 13 miles a day.

SPEAKER_04 15:34

That I mean, I'll just say one time I I wanted to figure out how far I could walk in a day, and I started at, you know, sun up and walked till sundown, and it was about 23 miles.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Sure, right.

SPEAKER_04 15:47

But uh I didn't have a chain around my neck. Um, you know, I wasn't, you know, I didn't take a a break to eat, or there wasn't anybody sick traveling with me, or you know, we weren't carrying a bunch of heavy gear or crossing a river for that matter.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Exactly, exactly, right. So you're only gonna move as you're only gonna move, and and you're talking about, you know, 600 people moving, and you're only gonna move as far as the slowest member of your group is gonna move in a day. And then you've got the herd of pigs to think about. Right, right. There's even been some some talk about, you know, how fast can you can you herd a herd of pigs?

SPEAKER_04 16:29

Yeah, 12 to 13 even seems like a bit of a stretch.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Right, right, right. So let's say, let's say that there's there's pretty good agreement among among um most scholars and archaeologists that that uh Soto met uh Tascaloosa at his primary town of Adahachi, somewhere on the Alabama River. And from the time they crossed the river to the time they made it to Mabila, it was two days and they arrived in the morning of the third day. So they describe the crossing as being at high craggy bluffs. So if you're on the Alabama River, the high craggy bluffs are near Selma. Right? Near five high craggy bluffs near Selma. And if you march using preferably native trails um through the least difficult territory, and you're going but you're you're going to my Bila um and you're going about at most 15 miles a day, you're gonna be marching through the Black Prairie. And that regardless of which one of those bluffs you use, if you stick to marching through the Black Prairie, you're gonna end up in west central Alabama in the Black Prairie. So that's where my team began looking in the fall of 2019.

SPEAKER_04 18:12

That's really cool. Um I know here where I live in Starkville, Mississippi, um, it was hush-hush for a couple of years. Uh, but I knew they were um maybe some of your students, some of my my friends' students, uh, and and others have been working in this area basically across the street from where I live.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:35

Um in Starkville. And I've read an article about it.

SPEAKER_01 18:38

That's right, yes. Yeah, there's been a lot of big discoveries regarding Soto's route in the last five or six years. Um, and that really helps us in our search for mybila because with the discoveries in Starkville, um, it's pretty clear that some of the metal that they've discovered there is 16th century Spanish metal. And based on the the pattern of of native farmsteads in that area, um matching the description of that area in the chronicles of the Soto expedition, the the eyewitness accounts to what they're finding archaeologically is a good match. And so um archaeologists and you know, Tony Boudreau can can at uh state can tell you more about this. Feel like it's a pretty good candidate, if not the candidate for the province of Chicaza that is mentioned in the Soto Chronicles. That's important for us because after the Battle of Mabila, Soto um the Soto expedition marched about another 30 days before they got to Chicaza, and incidentally um were defeated. Um and um that matches 30 days uh with our 12 to 15 mile estimate matches the distance between where we propose Mobila to be and where Starkville is today.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Can you tell us where you propose Mobilia to be?

SPEAKER_01 20:19

It's it's near Demopolis.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah, near Demop Demopolis would be the nearest large town. Yep. We're we're um we're real uh um I mean, word is more or less out about where we think where we think it is. And we've got um, you know, I've had lots of presentations where I show general maps. Um, but you know, um just to reassure anybody out there who's listening think they may have it on their property, we're really, really good about um anonymity with landowners. And, you know, we don't we don't post on social media with with tags, you know, about you know where we are, when we're there or anything like that. We try to keep that on keep that.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

Kind of like we do our hunting spots.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Yeah, there you go. There you go. I totally get that. People in the know that it's yeah, we're we're very respectful of of the the the people and the places we go because it is it is kind of a big deal.

SPEAKER_04 21:21

And um, you know, it's it's you know, it is a big deal, and and there's a lot of folks that it's a big deal to that aren't even necessarily in the profession, but that are amateur.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

And uh like I was at a uh I guess it would be a presentation uh a couple years ago where they were talking about this, and uh a gentleman stood up and uh you know it was obvious he was a knowledgeable person, uh, but uh he was very headstrong. It's like, I know exactly where this is, y'all are wrong. But uh anyway, it it's a big deal, and a lot of people are are just Fascinated with it.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

It's true. A lot of people, archaeologists and non-archaeologists, and historians, and and just, you know, your average folks who are interested in history have very strong opinions about it. Not everybody agrees with us. And uh I and I guarantee you there are people out there who know more and remember more about who have studied more the DeSoto Chronicles than I have. I mean, I'm I'm in a way that I think that's it's um, you know, I've been studying this for the past five or six years. Um, and I I still feel like I'm kind of playing catch-up to some of my colleagues. I think in a way it's kind of good that I'm leading this study because I don't have I I didn't come into the wrong way. I didn't have any preconceived notions. I didn't come into it with the dog in the fight, so to speak. So um but but here's the clincher. We have found in the area we're looking over 100 pieces of 16th century Spanish metal.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

That has that says something. So this mobilia, what was it a giant community? It seemed like I've heard that it was one of the, if not the biggest cities around, like a modern day Atlanta.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

I don't think so. I think it was just a a moderate to large size town with a few thousand people. It was um described as being a palisaded town or a walled town. Um there's some debate about whether, you know, the the palisade was thrown up because people heard that Soto was coming or whether it would had been there already. Um, those are the kind of questions that can be asked, that can be answered when we find it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

So how did DeSoto die in Arkansas?

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Um, we don't know exactly. We just know that he was sick and and and died. He I don't know. That's a good question. Going back to our previous episode, however, I will say that uh there is a report of the of the Spaniards in Arkansas having a major salt shortage and getting really sick because they couldn't find a source of salt and they were marching through the hot uh humid climate.

SPEAKER_04 24:30

With no electrolytes in their system.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

With no electrolytes in their system. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

That happened to me one time. I was out in the field doing some forestry work in the summer and it was just extremely hot, and I was marking property lines, and uh I basically fell down and my my legs and arms didn't work.

SPEAKER_05 24:49

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:50

It took me a while to come to and I dragged myself out of the woods and was fine. But yeah, yeah, salt is important.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah, it's a real, it's a real thing. So, but yeah, I don't know exactly how how he died, but um there are re you know, apparently he was put into the Mississippi River ultimately.

SPEAKER_03 25:08

But um, that had to be tough to cross back in the day.

SPEAKER_04 25:12

All these rivers had to be tough to cross with uh and and just you know, thinking about how they all got along, uh, you know, just probably didn't eat a very well-rounded diet. Um, all of that stuff comes into play.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

And I don't know why no one's made a movie about it yet. Wouldn't that be a fascinating movie about about the expedition? And yeah, that would be great.

SPEAKER_03 25:35

Yeah, you could be the director.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

I could be I could be uh technical director, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

We've referenced these pigs a couple of times. Are they thought to be some of the original pigs that Florida now has?

SPEAKER_01 25:47

That's what people say. That's what people say. I'd I would be really interested to know if there have been any biological studies, you know, collecting DNA, right, to see, you know, what kind of mutations there are and comparing them to modern pig populations or modern, you know, wild boar populations.

SPEAKER_04 26:08

You could probably trace it back to some heritage breeds of of pigs, uh, you know, where soda was from.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Wouldn't that be interesting? Yeah, that would be a fascinating study.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

You know, the whole thing is really interesting and even to the point where it amazes me that somebody can be in Spain and say we're gonna we're gonna sail to Florida and or to the to the wherever the Incas are on Central America, and then sail back to Spain. Uh and and get back there. W back in the day in the 1500s, they were probably using stars.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah, right. Stars and astrolabes, and yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 26:46

No mosquito control. Well, no modern mosquito. I mean, I I think about all the modern conveniences and it's just insane to think about what what they went through.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Can you imagine traveling through the through the Black Prairie in the rain?

SPEAKER_03 27:02

No. You know, so when I was like in high school, I grew up in Montgomery, and Fort Toulouse was becoming a uh a big thing. It was a really big French settlement. It was, yeah. And they were at I got to go witness them excavating it, excavating it. And uh had a friend whose dad was like in charge of the project, and I just let me see a lot of stuff and open my eyes. But that was, I mean, they talked about that being so many Native Americans lived in that area that where the Alabama, where the Coosa and the Talapusa came together to form the Alabama. That just that was just a real rich area right there.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:44

And but you're saying this mobilia was further south than that, further south and west, potentially.

SPEAKER_01 27:51

Yes, yes. And you know, what's kind of interesting about this story is is a story of discovery and of science and how science works. You know, um, because we know that the people in the 16th century, the native people in the 16th century were corn farmers, um we kind of assumed that we would find a big town like Mabila in a river valley, in a major river valley, which is where the big towns like Mounville were, right? Or Bottle Creek, right? Big, big rivers, lots of fertile field, lots of fertile land for growing, growing corn. Um, and that's where archaeologists have been looking. But that's not where we found it. We found it in the prairie.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

Yeah. Well, I mean, before we came in and planted cotton everywhere and ruined it, you know, there was a lot thicker organic layer than there is now.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Much thicker organic layer, yeah. And um I mean the and a lot more a lot more uh cane thickets, so you cane breaks, you know, full of wildlife, full of game.

SPEAKER_04 29:02

Right. You know, uh fire was in full force back then, so there was all kinds of cool plants and weeds everywhere, and it, you know, a lot of it wasn't completely covered in trees.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Right. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

Um so maybe you could have farmed it.

SPEAKER_01 29:16

Well, we found um in our excavations in the past couple of years, we found lots of evidence for corn farming. Um, in some of the pits we've excavated, we found lots of charred uh corn kernels uh and corn uh pieces of pieces of corn. So there's they were they were absolutely uh they were gathering wild plant foods and hunting too, but they were also farming corn, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Ashley, I was told a story about 25 years ago by a man that I really believed everything he ever told me, Mr. Joe Champion. He was at he worked for a number of paper companies that along the Alabama River around Camden for a number of years. And he he was just a he was a really interesting guy, he had a lot of stories. But he told me that when they were putting in dams in the Alabama River, that the Corps of Engineers were were going out and looking at different sites to make sure they were documented before that water was. That's right. And he tell told me the story that he was with another couple of guys and it was late one evening, and they were the guys were di he was there to show them around where to go and to get them to where they needed to be. And late one night they were were excavating and found a whole solid conquistador helmet. And he said it started getting dark, and the the guys said, Look, this is about to get dark, honestly. Let's get out of here and we'll come back in the morning and finish you know digging this out. And they went back to their hotels. Mr. Joe went back home, they met up the next morning and went back to that site and it was gone. And I mean, that's the story. And there were according to m Mr. Joe, it was that happened just like that. Is that a like a believable story?

SPEAKER_01 31:15

It's it's believable in the sense that they're not that far off of the route of where, say, uh Luna might have traveled 20 years after Soto. Um it's believable in the sense that you know, a lot of people like to go out and do that at night.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

Yeah, glute at night. Even official people, man. I mean, you know, and Mr. Joe said I remember seeing it.

SPEAKER_04 31:49

Well, you can imagine the temptation. I mean, humans were not perfect. Would that be valuable?

SPEAKER_01 31:57

It would be hugely valuable scientifically. Yeah. Just to see it and to know where it came from. I don't want it. I don't I don't want it. None of my colleagues want it, but to see it and know exactly where it came from would be hugely valuable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

He told me that story. I it's just always held in my mind.

SPEAKER_04 32:18

So what what are some other things that uh archaeologists look for uh to prove the the Spanish were you know we're here? I mean, I I know it's the the the their metals, but was there anything else that was found that would allude to being from overseas?

SPEAKER_01 32:39

So uh there are there are several several lines of evidence you need to to say Soto was here or to say this is the battle of Mobila. And and incidentally, if if it if the site of Mobila hasn't already been destroyed, when it's found, it should be fairly obvious. So there should be very little question. And here's why. Um you've got the distance, right, that we've discussed already. So it's gotta be two and two days and morning of the third day distance from the crossing of the Alabama River, where the high craggy bluffs are.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

What is craggy? I meant to ask you, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:22

I think craggy, I think just sort of not a smooth face. So chalk bluffs. Okay. Chalk bluff. You gotta be 30-day march to Chicasa, and we have a point on the map for that now. Um it has to be the remains of a large village. So lots and lots and lots of native artifacts of the right age. You gotta have Spanish objects. Um metal is we're focused on because we can because it's easily detectable with metal detectors and it survives in the archaeological record. Hopefully, also some Spanish ceramics. Um objects of warfare. So uh, I know crossbow bolts, um Howard, you know, uh spear tips, metal spear tips, things like this. There should be that. And there should be evidence that the village burned all at one time. So we're talking about a field of burns, daub, and clay from the houses that burned. So it should be fairly evidence. Taking all that together, what we've got where we're looking now is the right distances, the right general location. We have Spanish artifacts of the right age, excuse me, native artifacts of the right age. We have Spanish artifacts of the right age. What we don't have yet is the big burned village, and we don't have yet the objects of warfare. So what we're proposing is that we have found the province of Mabila. There's really nothing no other way to explain it. There's there's not there's nothing else, nothing else fits what we have found except for this to be the province of Mobila. Um I think we're probably close to the battle site, um, within a few miles. And um I have to give a major shout out to the landowners and to the farmers and the hunters of that area. They've been super generous and so uh enthusiastic and helpful about letting us, you know, look on their property. So I've learned a lot about farming, incidentally.

SPEAKER_04 35:47

I bet.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

About timing of planting and spraying um herbicides and how fast you can run in front of a tractor and all kinds of fun stuff.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

So this could be a wooded site now, if it potentially potentially, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:04

Potentially. Yeah. I I suspect it's in the prairie. Um, there's no mention in the chronicles of there being a large river. There's no mention of a mound. They talk about mobila as being on a plane and of the houses being spread out from one another, one to two crossbow shots apart. And that's the pattern we found.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

What what does the word mobila, what does it mean?

SPEAKER_01 36:31

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

And is that where we get modern-day mobile?

SPEAKER_01 36:35

It is, yes, it is where we get the the modern name mobile. So we're proposing, my my um Jim Knight, my my um uh partner in this in this endeavor, um, who's retired from the University of Alabama, we're proposing that after the Battle of Mobila, after a couple generations, these people migrated to the Alabama River. And if you look on one of the earliest French maps from the 1700s, there is a label on the Alabama River that says Vieux Mobilian, which old Mobilians. Old Mobilians. And then you'll see that they have moved down to the Mobile Bay Area, Mobilians down there. So these are the same people.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

The history, uh I'm so glad that there are people like you that are trying to understand and preserve because history is we've got such a rich history.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's it's such a um such a great story, right? Such a meaningful story, not just for colonial history, but also for native history, you know, and what it means to in you know, native peoples. I mean, the the you know, the Chickasaw people today say they've never been defeated in battle, right? And they're they're starting, you know, they're they're counting Soto as one of those losers.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

I've never, you know, you've enlightened me today. I never realized it was such a uh I'm searching for the right word, but it sounded like they were some pretty rough and tough mean in the way they handled people. I can't imagine putting people in chains and making them march, burden bearers. Just this the word burden bearer.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

Yeah, it was awful. It was this was the last time that that this was that this was allowed on an expedition. By this time, really, the the Catholic Church had some say over how indigenous people were being treated throughout the Spanish colonial regions. And um, Chain was not employed after the Soto expedition again. Yeah. So um one of the questions that we get about this is how do you know if the metal you find is Spanish metal? And I think that's a perfectly legitimate question. One way is that um, say uh if well it just looks like 16th century examples that we know have come from photocytes. So it looks right, the measurements are similar, you know. The horseshoes, for instance, don't look anything like a 19th century or a 20th century horseshoe at all. Um, they look exactly like you know all of the other 16th century Spanish horseshoes, for instance. Um, the other way that we tell is by doing uh sort of a chemical analysis or um um an elemental analysis of the metal itself. And in two weeks, I'll in two weeks, yeah, two and a half weeks, uh, I'll be meeting up with other archaeologists who have discovered Spanish artifacts from around the southeast. And we're gonna bring all the artifacts together into one space, and we're gonna use a machine called a portable X-ray fluorescence that is sort of looks a lot like a ray gun from like a 1950s alien movie, and it zaps, it shoots sort of like a laser at the the material.

SPEAKER_04 40:18

Like they use at a pawn shop.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

Yes, yeah, and it it reflects it floor, you know, different elements will re fluoresce or glow or shoot back energy differently. And so the machine records that and it kind of gives you like a compositional analysis of the metal. What's significant about that is that anything from the 19th or 20th century is going to look totally different recipe-wise, right? So we and we're really good now at distinguishing like 19th and 20th century farm material from stuff that's older, generally. There are plenty of things we're uncertain about. But what's cool is that the soto expedition was supplied out of Spain. And so we know generally where that metal's coming from. It's all brand new stuff. The Luna expedition 20 years later, the stuff's not gonna appear any different in form. It's gonna look more or less the same style, same technology, but they're supplied out of Mexico. And so it's gonna have a different recipe of iron than the stuff coming from Spain. So um, how do we know it's 16th century? Well, based on the style and the technology, how it's made, is it hand forged, et cetera? Um, comparing it to other known pieces from that era. And the second thing is we're actually gonna look at the chemical composition and and get at um uh, you know, the the recipes for these irons and be able to distinguish them.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Hmm. You know, I keep coming back to the in my mind, um I'm thinking about 600 people traveling, horses and pigs, and it had to be a burden on a community when they showed up just to overwhelming.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Absolutely. They would empty these villages' uh grain storages, their corn storages, yeah. And they they would send um soldiers would go out into the countryside scavenging food, taking food from from people.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

It's a dog-eat dog world out there.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Were there any uh like written accounts of um what the what the indigenous people thought when they when they saw horses for the first time or pigs or saw these men with these helmets on, or was there any Yeah, I don't I don't know if any specific to the Soto expedition.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Um I mean it was said that that Tuscaloosa was particularly big and uh um particularly big, dark. There's one legend that says he sat astride a Spanish pony and his legs touched the ground. Um so I I'm not but I'm not sure about it, you know, native perceptions, but they certainly would it have been it would have been like aliens landing in your backyard. Yeah. Yeah. That different.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Wow. How can we how can we help you guys with what you're doing? Is there are y'all trying to raise funds or or or awareness or what what could we do to that?

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Oh wow, I appreciate that question. Um yeah, so we have had a couple of grants to support the work. Um and we are also uh fundraising. We we got started, in fact, the first year and a half of the whole project was uh through private donations. Um and those are made to um to UWA to The archaeology fund. And it all goes directly to supporting our work in the field. One thing that we're doing coming up is we are going to look in South Alabama where we think the Mobilian people ended up and hopefully find pottery from that village location and be able to compare it to the stuff we've been finding there and really confirm that migration story of the Mobilian people. So the research is ongoing. In addition to donations through UWA, we're always happy to look into people's tips and ideas. A lot of people think that, you know, it would be a liability to have a site related to this on their property. Honestly, archaeologists are very respectful of private property. It belongs to the landowner. The artifacts belong to the landowner. Nobody would want to, you know, take your land. It can't be condemned for any reason because of any of anything like this found on it. We would just love to work with people as to what, and honestly, once people see what it is that we're interested in finding, like these bits of broken pottery and stuff, they're they get into it too. They either get into it too or they roll their eyes and go and say, Wow, you know, I'm not interested in that.

SPEAKER_04 45:41

I can't imagine somebody being interested in that.

SPEAKER_01 45:44

I've had some landowners tell me, ah, you ain't gonna find nothing out there. But uh, you know, so I mean, not everybody is as into it as as we as we might be, but um yeah, it's gonna be it's it's fun. It's a it's a fantastic, fantastic search and it and generates a lot of interest.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

I could see a landowner being hesitant. Sure, sure. I'd but you've explained it in a way that they're it should help.

SPEAKER_01 46:10

Right, right. And and again, we've been working for the past five years with multiple landowners and farmers and hunters, you know, people who are leasing land. Uh to and once they see what we're doing and how we how we're going about it, they're generally like, oh yeah, that's that's fine, that's interesting, and they're interested and want to help.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

And they might even be able to give you some like these tips you're talking about. They might be able to say, Well, I found this.

SPEAKER_01 46:36

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Right, right, yeah. So we've we've made a lot of good friends over the past several years.

SPEAKER_04 46:44

And uh I mean that's that's an interesting field to go into. I I want to encourage some of my listeners that are younger, you know, thinking about going to going to college or whatever, or maybe getting a master's. Uh, this would be a great opportunity. Um just sounds like a like a fun field to be in. It is. I've got some friends that are in that field and uh they all love their job.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yeah, it's great. And we love to work with volunteers. We really do. We love to work with volunteers. Um, you know, nothing that we're doing is, you know, I think I've mentioned before, it's not rocket science. You just have to know how to gather the data, uh, label everything, keep good notes, and um, and we love to, we uh most of our work has been has been done with volunte a lot of our work has been done with volunteers.

SPEAKER_04 47:32

Okay. What are some of the schools, I guess, in the southeast that have a archaeology, anthropology school?

SPEAKER_01 47:42

So for undergraduate, um, that would be um University of Southern Miss, Southern Miss, uh, Mississippi State, um University of Mississippi. I don't know about in Jackson. I'm not sure that they have anthropology there. Um in Alabama, uh South Alabama, Auburn, uh, AUM, and University of Alabama. Um, and those are undergraduate programs where you would get a degree in anthropology, which is like the study of all humans, right? Everything about humans. Um it's kind of like if you, you know, if you wanted to be, say, you know, a wildlife conservationist, you get your degree in biology, general biology, right? And then at the master's level, you would focus specifically on archaeology. Got it.

SPEAKER_04 48:39

Yeah, that was a question I wrote down and forgot to ask. What's the difference between anthropology and archaeology?

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Yeah, so archaeology is a part of anthropology. So my degrees are in anthropology, but I specialize in archaeology. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

Well, this m mobila, I hope I'm pronouncing that right. It's it's uh it's an interesting story, and it's interesting to me that it's 2025 and we still don't know for sure where it is because so much has been learned and is known, uh, but that's still has a question mark on it. So much has changed too on the landscape.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Yeah, a lot has changed in the landscape, too. I mean, there I I wouldn't, you know, be terribly surprised if there's somebody out there, you know, a landowner who maybe has a hint that it might be on their property, but they're just, you know, maybe afraid about coming forward because they don't know what that might mean for their for their ownership of the land or their you know, their herd of, you know, cows on the land or or whatever, you know, however they may be making a living off of it. Sure. And that's something that we certainly respect. Um so um, yeah, I think it's gonna come down to just getting on the right piece of property and and reassuring folks that you know we're we're here to learn not to take and and uh share that story with everybody.

SPEAKER_03 50:07

So to kind of circle back, so the soto came in around Tampa somewhere, traveled up through Georgia, maybe into South Carolina to pick up those pearls, yes, and back down through Alabama, down to this Mabilah. Yes, and then they left there and struggled their way up through across the Tom Bigby River. The and the thought is somewhere not too far from here, probably into where Dudley's lives, then startwell.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

And eventually went on to find the Mississippi River and then he crossed it and dies.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

And then the rest of the group doesn't make their way back to Spain, they just assimilate into Well, no, they they kind of straggle on um double back a couple of times and then straggle on back down through, say, present-day Texas and make and back into Mexico.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

Do they ever do they make it back to Spain and tell the king?

SPEAKER_01 51:09

Some of them do, yes. Some of them do. Yep, some of them do. And tell their tale many years later and it's written down. So um you can read all about the Soto Expedition. There are two big books that I would strongly recommend for anybody interested. Um if you're if you want to read the chronicles themselves, there are four of them, and they've been translated from the Spanish into English, and the books are just called the DeSoto Chronicles. Um, and they're published by the University of Alabama, and you can probably pick up a couple of copies online for pretty cheap. And then the other one is more is was by a man named Charles Hudson out of the University of Georgia, and what he did is he kind of took the chronicles and he put it all together in like a narrative story. So it's a bit of an easier read.

SPEAKER_04 52:02

The Cliff Notes.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

The Cliff Notes version. And that's called Knights of Spain Warriors of the Sun. And that's a really good read if you just want to kind of have one account. And he tells you, you know, they went here and then they did this, and they went here and they did this, and then traveled on. And yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

No, I'm I'm just smoking it all in. Is there anything about this subject that we should have asked you about that kind of bubbles in your mind that's interesting?

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Um I I can't think of it anything immediately. I guess the main thing is just that, you know, it's uh it's a big mystery still, but we are making progress. We're making progress. You know, we're we're we're getting closer.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

Well, when they left Mavila, how many were in that group?

SPEAKER_01 52:56

Uh I think the the it's about the same size. They they lost a few dozen people at the in the battle, but they kind of hung around for about a month um licking their wounds, and um Soto kind of had a decision to make. He had to decide whether to head south to meet up with some potential supply ships and possibly face a mutiny from everyone who was very unhappy at this point because their 18 months were up when they got to Mabilila, or to continue on, and he chose to continue on. And, you know, then met with a similar bad fate at Chicasa.

SPEAKER_03 53:36

So, Dr. Ashley Doomas, University of West Alabama. We'll have in the show notes uh just maybe your email address or if so if a landowner or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 53:46

Yeah, that'd be fine. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

Um th this has been fascinating. The work you're doing, we're it's it's uh it's amazing and it's important stuff, and we appreciate you sharing it with us. Yeah, thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

Oh, yeah. It's my that's that's why they pay me the big bucks.

unknown 54:01

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 54:02

So, what's a day look like for you? Are you mostly teaching?

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Are you excavating something or mostly teaching right now? Um yeah, mostly teaching. And um but the cool thing about the job is you get to do some field work and then you get to do some lab work and then you get to share it in the classroom. So it's always different.

SPEAKER_03 54:22

Yeah, I bet it is. I bet a class is uh that I bet that's a fun class. Oh, indeed. Yeah. Well, I tell you what, we stay in touch if y'all when y'all find out more or find anything exciting. If you want to come up here and tell us, we'd love to hear about it. Yeah, I'd love to share it. Yeah. All right, Dudley, you got anything else to ask? No, I think I'm good. Richie, I learned a lot. I'm good. Y'all hit everything. You got any burdens you need to bear today? Now we've uh now. All right, Ashley, we've enjoyed this. Why don't you say goodbye, Dudley?

SPEAKER_04 54:55

Goodbye, Dudley. Get us out of here, Richie.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Game Keeper Podcast. And be sure to tune in again. Subscribe to Gamekeeper Farming for Wildlife magazine, and don't miss the Mossy Oak Properties Fistful of Dirt podcast with my good buddy, Ronnie Cud Strickland.