EP: 451 | The Story of the Beautiful Cahaba Lilies

This week we are joined by native plant specialist Kyle Lybarger and Cahaba Riverkeeper David Butler and we learn about a really unique and special plant. The Cahaba River Lilies bloom each spring and attract world wide attention. Once upon a time, many southern rivers had these lilies blooming on their shoals in the spring. Today only a few places still have them.  These delicate white blooms create a sea of white along the shoals of the Cahaba River in their remaining places. Why? Because of mans influence the rivers and water levels have changed dramatically and eliminated the habitat these shoal lilies need. Thankfully we have people like David Butler and others that are fighting to help preserve the plants, habitat and the river.  We think you will agree the story is amazing. 

Listen, Learn and Enjoy. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:00

I'm Jeff Foxworthy and welcome to Gamekeeper Podcast. If you want to learn more about farming for wildlife and habitat management, then budget you are in the right place. Join the Gamekeeper crew direct from Australia Land and Haskell Studios based festivals wildlife and habitat management practices. And of course I've no telling what you'll learn, but I will tell you, I've had a temple. Enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

We're live. Three, two, one.

SPEAKER_06 0:28

All right, guys, we're battling the heat today.

SPEAKER_08 0:30

It's summertime.

SPEAKER_07 0:31

Already.

SPEAKER_08 0:32

It's gonna be a long, hot summer. And you did so well preparing us, you know, iced. Not everybody got one of those.

SPEAKER_07 0:37

You've been eyeing my my beverage there, so I thought I'd let you try it.

SPEAKER_08 0:41

What's that mouthwash?

SPEAKER_07 0:42

It's a Baja Blast.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

I opened my cup. Y'all provided me a copy of the latest Game Keeper magazine, and it's got a beautiful, monstrous largemouth on the front, which is very cool. Bobby snuck in there.

SPEAKER_07 0:55

First time we've done a fish on the cup.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

But I opened it up and the page I opened up to it said the significance of the summer solstice. Ironic on a day when it's the summer sweatstice today. It is.

SPEAKER_08 1:07

It's just really humid.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

You know what we should do? We should go recreate in a creek or a river. That's what we should cool off.

SPEAKER_03 1:16

Like the Java River. We need to find a spring-fed river. Yeah, Larry.

SPEAKER_07 1:21

I'm afraid you might poison that river. I could. All the stalk coming off of you. Yeah, and bringing Tom Bigby over there would just mess it all up. So look, let's look, let's get our guest introduced. We've got Kyle Lybarger. We've had him, we love Kyle, our man, no doubt about it. He's just everything native. Yeah. And he's he's talking about flowers and leaning away.

SPEAKER_08 1:46

Yeah. Welcome, Kyle.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Yeah, I appreciate it. Glad to be back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

I remember back in the day when they were trying to get like what I was about out there. I said, just basically I'm not this big, you know, trophy game hunter guy. I'm kind of basically a nature freak. And they were going, no, no, you can't say that to the public. I was like, that's what I am, though. Yeah. Yeah. Everything outdoors about personally, yeah, the plants, the trees, the birds, recruiters.

SPEAKER_07 2:13

Let me get our other guest introduced. And he's very specific about our topic today. This guy is from over in uh uh around Birmingham. Birmingham. Yeah, and Mr. Dave Butler, he is the a Cahaba River Keeper. All right, I mean he's all about what we're gonna talk about. It's a beautiful river, too.

SPEAKER_05 2:33

Yeah, the whole hopefully he'll explain the whole river keeper. I bet you would.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

So, Dave, welcome. We appreciate you being here. Glad to be here. So, did did one of y'all say you've been to the Cahaba before? I've drove over it. I've been over it. I've been close to it.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

I've been close to it.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Yeah, I hunted a place that was kind of on it, but I wasn't. We did go down to the river once and it was like a sandbar thing. But no, I haven't like gotten in it and fished it or anything. Me neither. It's a beautiful long river. It is.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

It's a beautiful long river, relatively small for Alabama standards, but it it's got um amazing biodiversity. It's just really, really special place.

SPEAKER_07 3:13

How did you get so interested in the Cahaba River?

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Well, I was uh out of college, didn't know what I wanted to do. Um, started running canoe trips, taking people out, and um, you know, really didn't know a whole lot about the river then, and so I got interested in some of the organizations that work to protect the river and wanted to do some volunteer work. You know, I was kind of uh putting people on the river all the time, felt like I should give back a little bit. And um that's how I found Cahaba Riverkeeper, and I've been there ever since.

SPEAKER_07 3:44

Yeah, you know, I I like the idea of I'm taking from this, I want to give back. That's being a gamekeeper. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 3:52

Well, you know, rivers are low, and that's where a lot of stuff ends up just because of gravity.

SPEAKER_03 3:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 3:58

And uh, you know, we've said this a million times, but it's it's like the more you learn about something, the more you learn about things that could be going wrong there, and the more you notice things like that. Right, right. And so I'm I'm sure that's how Dave figured it out. He was you know, floating the river and started learning more and seeing things that you know he thought probably weren't right and and needed to be righted, and uh lo and behold, we've got River Keeper.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Yeah, I mean it's really exactly what happened. You know, I I was kind of like I said, didn't know a whole lot about the river and saw the garbage all the time and um thought, you know, that's how I get started. It's just picking up trash and uh started getting connected to people who knew a lot more about it than me. And it's it's fascinating. Whole whole lifetime of learning you could do on the river of you know, fish, turtles, frogs. Um, you you could really just spend spend your whole life just on that river and not know, you know, half of what there is to learn.

SPEAKER_07 4:58

I think it's the longest river in Alabama now that doesn't have a dam on it, if I'm not mistaken. How about that?

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Longest free-flowing river. That's correct. Yep. Um now we're working working around the state to remove some dams, so hopefully one day that won't be the case. But oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_08 5:12

And it's one of Alabama's 10 natural wonders. Yeah, how about that?

SPEAKER_07 5:16

All right, look, let's do this. We're gonna let Dudley do the rapid fires, but before we so we can get to know him, but before I want to start. Land now got another quote. You got a chance to shine and show how smart. It's not 50 seconds. I'm gonna ask you guys who just who said this quote. It's it's very poignant and it's very uh all your cord quotes are poignant. Yes. So this one Kyle, this is right in your wheel after drift on me. I can see you over there drifting. All right, so this guy, who said this? There are some of us who can live without wild things, and some of us who cannot. For us of the minority. Come on, Kyle. I thought you're done. That's I thought you were done. That's called a dramatic pause. For us in the minority, there are us in the minority. The opportunity to see geese or wildflowers is a right as inalienable as free speech. Inalienable. Inalienable as free speech.

SPEAKER_08 6:18

Okay, geez.

SPEAKER_07 6:18

I've messed this thing all the way up from the beginning.

SPEAKER_08 6:20

You did. Kyle knew what it was from the first word.

SPEAKER_07 6:23

Yeah, he did. So who's thinking? Well, Kyle Hit, Aldo Leopold. Yeah, that's right. The Cahaba River is such a beautiful place.

SPEAKER_08 6:34

But that lily is stunning. I've never looked at one before.

SPEAKER_07 6:40

So let's start with Kyle. Kyle, can what tell us about this Cahaba lily?

SPEAKER_04 6:45

Oh, that's what David's here about. I uh we don't have it. Yeah, let's have it in North Alabama. We that we have the swamp lily up here, and I see it everywhere. Uh well, most bottom bottom land areas, so like um creek bottoms, just those like you know, those flat woods that flood when it rains. And what you're calling those swamp lilies.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah, what do you what you're calling a swamp lily? Is that in the spring or is that in the summer?

SPEAKER_04 7:12

Spring. Uh well. Spring, late spring, early summer.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah, but is that what we call Easter lilies?

SPEAKER_08 7:19

The white ones? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

What uh at the dummy line?

SPEAKER_08 7:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Yeah, and I've I've got a bunch of them. We got a place called Lily Ridge because in late April, mid to late April, depending on the temperatures, it's just like a snow is so beautiful. Yeah. With those, and I well I've always daddy always called them Easter lilies.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

What's the what's the genus of this? Isn't it like hymen something?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yes, hymenocalis. Okay. Um and so you have the the species that Kyle's referring to, the the swamp lily is occidentalis, and the the cahaba lily, the the shoal lily is uh coronaria. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

So the the one you're referring to, Kyle, is it look a lot similar to the like a close first cousin to the cahaba?

SPEAKER_04 8:06

Yeah, to the average person, uh wouldn't. You get a lot of confusion. Everybody thinks they have a cahaba lily in their backyard. Right.

SPEAKER_05 8:14

Yeah, I've I've seen it just randomly around here. Uh the the swamp lily.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

Um that's got yeah. It looks just like it for as far as you look at a picture, very, very similar. Right, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:24

And it's funny, sometimes you'll just stumble upon like one popping up on the kind of on the edge of a creek.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

But I'm noticed it's interesting how they they pop up in a spot and they don't necessarily reoccur in the same spot the next year. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 8:39

The ones I've seen have, but it could be that they just float off, you know, the the water changes course and uh it erodes and true goes somewhere down the creek. They have legs.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

I hear people say they have legs when plants do that. Wow.

SPEAKER_07 8:54

So Dave, tell us about the Cahaba uh river and tell us about the Cahaba lily. What can you what shine a light on it for us?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah, so the the Cahaba River is a really special river in a state full of special rivers. Um feel extraordinarily fortunate to get to to work on it every day. Um it's 194 miles long. The watershed's about 1,900 square miles, have 130 plus species of fish there. Um and it's it's right, you know, they call it the Heart River of Alabama, so it's right, you know, central Alabama between the much bigger Coosa River and the Black Warrior River, just right through the middle of the state. Um it's you know, like I said, really fascinating place to work every day. And uh I I was never really into plants at all, wasn't wasn't my thing. And I took my mom out um before I ever started working on the river, really, to see the lilies one year because um so many people talked about what a you know what an amazing time of the year it was, what a great place to go see them. And I took her out there and and got hooked. I mean, it you know, you can imagine that the whole river is just a carpet of these flowers from Mother's Day to Father's Day. Um, and then, you know, kind of what you guys were saying before, as you start to learn more about it, it just gets more and more fascinating. Um, and we've been at the organization I work for, the Cahaba River Coalition, have been in an eight-year effort to kind of restore this population of lilies on the Cahaba River National Wildlife Refuge, which is one of, if not the largest remaining population of these flowers, you know, anywhere in the world. And so um feel like it's a tremendous honor to get to do that kind of work. And um we're we're in the middle of that season right now, and so you know, kind of full of it right now because I've been spending the last you know four or five weeks just taking people out, show it to them, and um really, really rewarding to see um how how impactful it is when people come out and actually see it in person, um, see the river, see all these flowers blooming. Um you know, just a real joyful part of my work to get to see people really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_07 11:03

Oh, yeah, I bet it is.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Where else do they occur? So they occur in a few river systems across the southeast. So they're in the uh Catawba River system, kind of South Carolina, uh, they're on the Tallapoosa River in Alabama, uh, a creek in the Coosa River system, Hatchet Creek, um, and not really a whole lot, you know, a lot of bigger populations anywhere else. They're starting to try to rebuild a population on the Chattahoochee River. Um, but when we dammed all these rivers, we kind of flooded the habitat where these flowers, you know, normally would grow. And so we lost, you know, the vast majority of the populations across the southeast. Um, here in Alabama, we had a population on the Black Warrior River at a place called Squaw Shoals that was um many, many times larger than what we have at the the Cahaba River. Um, but when they dammed the Black Warrior River, they you know flooded that habitat. It's now 40 feet underwater, and so the lilies just can't grow there.

SPEAKER_07 12:01

Wow. Well, so when I was reading about them, it said they bloom for 24 hours.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

Yeah, so each bloom opens up for 24 hours and they kind of bloom sequentially around the head of the plant. So you'll get you know five or six blooms on a on a stalk, but only one bloom opens every day and stay open for a day, you know, get a shot to get pollinated, and then you know, on to the next bloom.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Or the swamp lily that looks like it similar to that, Kyle. Or is that are they a day only? Uh a day lily?

SPEAKER_04 12:33

I haven't I think it blooms a little longer. I thought it did too. I I I think the I think the shoal lily has to because of uh waters the water rising and stuff like that. Like I think it tries to get stuff done a little quicker.

unknown 12:48

Uh that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Yeah, it's a and the swamp lily, all the all the blooms open at the same time um on the swamp lily. But it's really, you know, they look very, very similar, but a lot of really fascinating differences between those two species, just even as closely related as they are, um, you know, significant difference between the the way that those two plants grow.

SPEAKER_07 13:11

So what I read uh on the Cahaba lily that it's thought to be pollinated by night pollinators.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Yeah, so we've actually been doing some work to kind of nail down, uh we know for a fact it it's pollinated by a sphinx moth. Um, but we're you know, we think that it's probably pollinated by more, more species than just that. But um had a photographer out a couple weeks ago, um, spending the night out on the river trying to catch what all was was hopping between the flowers. Um and that's what you know to be honest, it's a really other fascinating part of this work is that um we really don't know a whole lot about lots of things. Um you don't don't really know ideal water quality, habitat conditions, those kinds of things. And so the organization that I'm working for is really working hard to understand better uh what the ideal conditions are, what those pollinators are, so we can really help uh keep that population healthy.

SPEAKER_05 14:06

Hmm. Yeah, it just I've got a lot of questions in my mind. Uh I mean, so like are has anybody gone through, I mean, are they uh I guess rare enough to where they folks have gone through efforts to try to like reproduce them and spread them in that river ecosystem? Like, can you hand pollinate them and make make seeds and go put them in other places? Or is that so?

SPEAKER_00 14:33

Yes, and we that's that's what we're doing right now. We're we're not hand pollinating the flowers. We get plenty of seeds, but they're the habitat is so specific and kind of bracketed by a habitat that is not suitable. So you have you know these shoal complexes in the river that are shallow, flowing water. Um, and if the seeds don't settle there, they they sink um into deeper water and they just won't overgrow. So for the last eight years, we've been um collecting those seeds before they drop and kind of moving them back up to the top of the shoals to give them a better chance to root and grow. Um and then this year we've been kind of engaged in a lot of water quality work, sort of understanding um water temperature, sunlight, um, pollinators, pests. Um, you know, you guys, you you deer hunters, that the these deer have been wreaking havoc on these these lily populations, they wade out and eat them. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 15:26

And so I thought about that.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

You know you know, it it's it's strange. You wouldn't um you wouldn't really think about it, but the um that they they do some damage.

SPEAKER_08 15:37

Um I mean they eat lobsters, I don't know why they wouldn't eat lilies.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Yeah, speaking of that, does the is the cahaba lily require like direct sunlight?

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Or it it prefers direct sunlight, so it can it can live kind of in the margins of the river in a little bit of shade, but it it prefers to kind of be out full open sun. And so um the the big population on the Cahaba River is in a big wide stretch of the river where there's plenty of sun. You know, they're they're in full sun most of the day there.

SPEAKER_03 16:07

Um so the ones here, obviously not a cobble, but that look like them, I guess the swamp leaf, they they'll grow in complete full canopy shade. You know, but I find them all the time. In fact, that's kind of the only place I find them. They're not far from an opening, usually, but I think that's because the water's edge was down there. But uh they definitely grow, you know, differently than that. They grow in complete shade. At least these are that do you think that's the same thing?

SPEAKER_05 16:33

I think so. That's what I I see around here.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

I know I looked it up, there was several that looked that looked like that, you know, different species, but the cobit lily was the most striking. It was kind of interesting the pictures they showed. It was growing actually in kind of flowing water or right on the edge of it. It was really pretty.

SPEAKER_05 16:51

So uh, you know, a lot of folks in your neck of the woods know what a shoal type uh habitat is. Can you describe what shoals are or what this exact habitat is that they're growing on?

SPEAKER_00 17:07

Yeah, so you know, in the cob anyway, it's the shoals are kind of where bedrock is is sort of shallower than um other spots of the river. So the river, you know, go through big deep pools and then it'll come across these um veins of bedrock that stretch across the river. And the cob river, um, where these these particular flowers grow, they sort of run perpendicular to the river. And so you have um these big kind of shelves of rock that that kind of bisect the river. And these flowers just love the crevices and cracks and those those pieces of rock. And so as the water flows through there, they you know it's oxygenating the water, so it gives them plenty of oxygen. And why I said they're you know, kind of the river's big and wide, and so the the shoal complex itself is um sort of the anchor that holds the seeds where they are and allows them to grow out in the middle of the flowing water. And they they grow in big, huge clusters. So you might have you know 40 bulbs and one little pocket of rock where they they're all just crowded in, and um to get these big, huge clusters with maybe I said you'll have uh during peak bloom season, you may have 30 blooms from 30 different plants all stuffed into one kind of crevice of rock.

SPEAKER_05 18:20

That's pretty cool. So okay, I get it now. So if if it's dammed up and the water stays above, then there's the shoals are covered. Right. And they it's too deep. They kind of like that, I don't know, just up to knee height type water.

SPEAKER_08 18:35

Um, and then the water kind of just fluctuates less than so do they do they germinate when the water goes down and then and when it comes up, or will they actually germinate in in flowing standing water in those cracks?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yeah, they germinate in flowing standing water. Um and you'll get you know in late summer when the water's really low, there's not as much, you know, flowing water, obviously, but they're you know, they've already kind of started germinating by then. And um sometimes you know this the seeds get stranded out of water. Um I went out to the Flint River a couple weeks ago and um you know really noticed even the way they grow on the Flint River is a little different than the the way they grow on the Cahava. Um but it's really you know it's kind of one of the fascinating differences between the the shoal lily and the swamp lily is that the shoal lily seed is really heavy and sinks to the bottom. And the swamp lily seeds are they float. And so um when there's a swamp lily, when it the seeds drop, the floodwaters kind of push it up into the floodplain and they they sit, you know, settle in dirt. But the the shoal lily, they kind of bounce along the bottom and get wedged in those cracks in the rock, and then um you know start to germinate and grow.

SPEAKER_07 19:48

So you you mentioned that y'all are gathering seed and taking them upriver. So it it in the way the world works, if somebody didn't do that, um all those seeds are just getting washed fur further south and are going away to an area they can't germinate. So gosh, that what y'all are doing sounds like it's real important to be able to protect that that area.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah, I mean, guys, I'm I'm pretty pretty dumb. And um we we were watching the the population there decline, and um, so we just you know said, well, what what can we do to kind of you know guarantee that as many of these seeds that the plants produce stay here and germinate? And so we just started trying to mimic what nature does. We went out and started collecting seeds and we looked at some of the the upper parts of the shoal complex, you know, kind of isolated shelves of rock where no flowers were growing anymore. And we just started, you know, hand placing seeds there to see if we could get them to grow again. And and the the reason it's so important on that top edge is that those plants ultimately will be the ones that seed the shoal, you know, the rest of the shoal. And so as you lose them from the top edge, you're you're sort of risking everything down below it. And so we just really felt like we could, you know, go do do what nature does, gather up these seeds, start, you know, reseeding the top part of the shoal, and then hopefully, you know, build a population again that could continue to seed everything down below it.

unknown 21:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

So can you um can you can you harvest seed if you just watch one go back and you know whatever it is, bolts or go dormant and turn brown and kind of wilt down? Can you harvest seed and save them? Or can you what's the what's the process if we wanted to be sure that we were helping our population over here of the swamp lily, actually?

SPEAKER_00 21:37

Yeah, so the swamp lily, I think, is a little different. You you know, you can um you can certainly harvest them. I mean, these are not small seeds. I mean, they're a big uh probably something like maybe a walnut or something. I mean, they're they're large. And so what happens is you know, where the flowers are on the the head of the plant, these seeds develop and they get really heavy and and pull the stalk over into the water and then the Current just kind of pulls them off. Um now there are you know there are people that will um collect the seeds and germinate them and keep them you know sort of over winter in oxygenated pools of water and then go back out and try to grow them um the next year. But we we feel like it's a lot a lot easier to just do do what nature does, keep them in the river. Um and and what's you know really changing here in Alabama is kind of the pattern of rainfall. And so typically when when these seeds are ready to drop, we're not getting much rain for the rest of the year, so they drop and kind of stay where they are. And now we're seeing rain a lot deeper into the summer, June, July. Um so when the seeds are ready to drop, we're getting these big you know storm events that are blowing all the seeds through their preferred habitat and just you know getting them deposited in those deep pools where they can't grow. So we'll go watch the weather. You know, when it looks like it's gonna rain, we run out, grab as many seeds as we can, and start, you know, kind of ham planting them and and just making sure they we give them the best chance to stay where they should be.

SPEAKER_05 23:03

Yeah, I guess, you know, with years of you know new parking lots and and soil being more compacted, uh, you probably have a lot of less, a lot less water infiltration. So when it does rain, it probably comes up a lot more quickly than it you know did a hundred years ago. Something to think about.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Yeah, so the Cahaba is what they you know they call it sort of the term they use, flashy. So we get get a rain, we're we're forcing all that water into the river as fast as we can. And then it, you know, the river river rises really quick, drops really quick, and it's violent. I mean, it is you know, tons and tons of water moving really fast. Um it's pulling trees down on the the riverbank, you know, kind of creating a lot of erosion. And um, you know, we'll get these big trees floating through the refuge in these storm events that just rip you know clumps of these flowers up out of the out of the rock and you know, kind of deposit them up on the bank. And so um, you know, just a there's a combination of things happening all at the same time that are really putting a lot of pressure on on these plants. And so um feel like it's important not just that we do it, that that people you know sort of that come to visit and and appreciate them do so kind of in a way that that minimizes the harm to to the plant. Um you know, you get people come out, they see those swamp lilies growing in somebody's yard, and they'll come and take seeds and you know try to grow them in dirt at home. Um I bet we get you know during lily season, we get hundreds of messages of people sending us pictures like, oh, they're growing in my grandmother's front yard or whatever. Um and and that you know, these particular flowers just won't do that. Um and so we, you know, I think you guys are probably well aware, right? We we're super proud of this place where the lilies grow. We do do a ton of work um to to both keep the refuge clean and and take care of these flowers and all the um the aquatic species that live there, the fish and so forth. And we get people that come that just don't respect it. You know, they you know come and think, oh just uh take some home, pick them, stomp on them, you know, do whatever we need to do. And that, you know, on top of all the other things that are happening, um it's pretty pretty big threat to you know these populations that exist.

SPEAKER_05 25:19

So uh I get you know you are a national wildlife refuge there, correct? Uh we are. So what what are the actual rules as far as that goes? Um I mean it's probably not even legal to to collect seed or plant material there, is it?

SPEAKER_00 25:40

It's not. It's not legal to take anything from the refuge, but um, you know, as you've kind of seen over the last 20, 25 years, um we we don't fund public land very well. And so um there's there's rules, you know, you're not supposed to camp, you're not supposed to take things, but there's no enforcement of the rules. So um my organization tries to do our part to let people know the rules, but at the end of the day, I don't have any authority um to stop somebody from doing it. So, you know, it's it's kind of heartbreaking sometimes to go out, you know, spend lots of days on the river during this period of the year, um, and watch people abuse this this public resource and and really not have the tools to be able to hold anybody accountable for it. Um and and you know, in a lot of ways it's it's ignorance, right? People just don't know. They they you know, you see thousands of flowers growing and and people individually think, oh, it wouldn't hurt if I take one or whatever. Um but I I'll tell you the other thing is that we we have this debate all the time. I'm a big public land advocate, and um people people don't read signs, man. I mean you you can put up a million signs, and if people don't read them, it doesn't make any difference. And so we we get uh a lot of people who just ignore the rules, you know, drive right by all the signs that tell them what they can and can't do, um and just do what they want to do. And and so unfortunately, um, you know, this the the wildlife refuge is a place that the federal government owns, it's protected. Um, you know, it'll be in the federal government's hands hopefully forever. Um, but in other places when we have public access like this, um when people come do these things, we lose the access. And so we lose the ability to see some of these things, like this amazing bloom of lilies, um, because people just don't take care of it.

SPEAKER_05 27:31

Well, hopefully we can just you know discuss that more openly and uh lead by example, you know. I I know like uh Native Habitat Project, you know, Kyle may be in some kind of rare plant area, um, and he's preaching to people, you know, just look at it, you know. Um I know a lot of times he'll collect seed, you know, when he knows that something is about to be demolished, but there there's kind of a Kyle, can you kind of go over the the rule of thumb with collecting seed? Um not necessarily on a wildlife refuge, but you know, if you're out on private land, what what are some things you can do to kind of leave no trace and and help the population?

SPEAKER_04 28:17

Uh yeah, well uh luckily most of the sites that that I'm managing aren't frequented a whole lot by anybody else. And so I can I usually try to take no more than 10%, but that's also uh with the understanding that uh the chances of somebody else coming to take seeds is pretty low. And so uh and of the seeds that I do collect, I try to I try to leave some of each plant. So like I'm not gonna if there's one plant making seed, I'm not gonna take all the seeds from that one plant if I can. And I'm gonna get a little bit from each one, and that way there's some genetic diversity when I move it to another spot. But I think that's the that's one of the things with the Cahaba lily, is it seems to be where it grows is also is also it also tends to be areas that people want to frequent because of the the fast moving water and the rapids, and it's pretty and uh those are the places people want to uh you know canoe and swim and and fish and and that's probably pretty true across most of the Cahab lily populations, isn't it, David?

SPEAKER_00 29:25

It is just so we're we're pretty fortunate we're about to buy a piece of property right now that's pretty isolated that that contains a really fantastic population of these flowers, and um, but for the most part they're they're in pretty publicly accessible places. And um, you know, part of the value of public land is people using it. And so it's sort of a difficult position to be in where you know you want to advocate for public land and you want people to come out come out and use it. Um, but you're also you know prioritizing you know the public lands being places that can serve and protect really important things. And the more people you bring to it, you know, the more pressure you put on those those things that you're trying to protect. And so it's a really difficult kind of a balance. And um, you know, I think like you said, I think all of us can just lead by example. And um, you know, I know that a lot of people just don't really understand the cumulative impact of of what we do when we we don't, you know, kind of pay attention to our impact. And so, you know, even just stopping and explaining that a little bit sometimes goes a long way for people who just don't really understand.

SPEAKER_05 30:33

Right. Uh one way I kind of think about it is uh, you know, when when you go somewhere, you you want it to look wild. You don't want to walk up on some area. Of course, I I know that other people may go there, but it's really cool to go to a public area like that and kind of feel like you're the only person that's there. And when you look down and you see a bunch of picked flowers or where somebody cut cut a tree down where they're camping, and you have to look at that and it reminds you that it's that it's being overused. And and by us trying to leave no trace, um, you're making it better for that person that's gonna come after you um to have that feeling of you know, kind of being by themselves and wow, look at this, and it's not damaged at all.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

So, Kyle, and I'll just add real quick to that. You know, one of the things that I've kind of learned to sort of the leave no trace is uh unfortunately, right? Like we can all not leave a trace, but that there's lots of people who do. And so it's you know, we really sort of like erase the trace, right? Like when people come out and leave beer cans and stuff, we'll always try to pick them up. Just you know, because when we're leaving other people's trash, it might as well be our trash, right? I mean, so um all of us sort of have a role to play. There's no public land that is um resourced in a way that there's staff out picking up trash after people every day. And so when we go out and and use these places, I think it's important that we also kind of contribute, not just by not littering ourselves, but kind of picking up after other people. And um, you know, at the refuge, that that refuge is 5,000 acres. And there's not a single staff person from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service that's out there every day. I mean, there's no facilities, there's no buildings, there's and so, you know, if we if we ignore the trash other people leave, um it's still the same, same kind of problem, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 32:33

So, Kyle, being a guy with a big heart toward native plants and wildflowers and whatnot, the first time you got on the river and saw this big expanse of white lilies blooming, can you kind of describe that and how it made you feel?

SPEAKER_04 32:48

Oh yeah, it's it's one of the most scenic uh flower blooms in the state. Uh, and I think it's been that's been true for a long time. I think there's uh, you know, historically people have written about it, and um, I've come across writings from from Georgia and you know, in the late 1800s where people were describing the place uh or a property they owned and how people were coming from from town to come visit it and hang out for the day. And it turns out this is these are properties that have Cahaba lily or not Cahaba lily, shoal lily uh populations on them. And so that's been uh it's been something not just that I noticed, but people have noticed, you know, even in the past, it's pretty easy to appreciate.

SPEAKER_08 33:35

So are these shoal areas all the way from the headwaters, I think, which is north of Birmingham, all the way down to maybe Selma? Is that where it would get close to running into the Alabama River? Or is it just you know certain areas?

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah, so that's one of the really cool things about the Cahaba is you kind of go from that ridge and valley region, you know, so you've got a lot of rock and shoal complexes from you know, kind of Birmingham to a place called Centerville, and then you get to Centerville and you you cross into the coastal plain and the shoals all disappear. There's no more rock, it's kind of sand and gravel. Uh the river gets wider and deeper. Um, so it's a whole you know, kind of whole different river, top, top half and and lower half. So that where this big population is is kind of at the tail end of the the upper watershed. And so you're you're about, I don't know, 15 miles um from the the fall line there before you cross into the coastal plain.

SPEAKER_07 34:30

So can if someone wanted to see these, do you have to do it from a a canoe or a kayak, or is there a point where you can drive and walk and see?

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah, so you can drive. Um there's a road called River Trace Road that runs right along the river at at the Cobra River National Wildlife Refuge, and you can pull up, get out of your car, and and see, you know, see the lilies from two feet from your car. Um, but the best, you know, the best way to see them is certainly in the water. Um it's you know, canoeing's difficult to see them because you the the water level, you know, it's kind of one of the challenges of free-flowing rivers is that the water level fluctuates quite a bit, and so it gets too low where you're kind of dragging through rocks and um or too high where you know the flowers are underwater and and it's kind of blown out. And so um the most consistent way to do it is certainly by by road, and then you can hike. There's a lot of beautiful trails and uh scenic overlooks and stuff out there at the refuge that you can enjoy it from. Um, and if you happen to hit the water level right, it's a fantastic, fantastic session to canoe too.

SPEAKER_07 35:35

You ever canoeed, Bobby? I have, I love to canoe. Yeah, I have I've fallen out of many a canoe in my life.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Anything to catch a bass, he's in love with, he can do.

SPEAKER_07 35:44

Yeah, what's the fishing like on the Cahava River?

SPEAKER_00 35:48

That's fantastic. I think the first time Kyle and I went out and saw these lilies together, we we caught some bass too. Um, and and these shoal complexes are great, great habitat for fish. Uh, not sure if you guys, uh I'm sure you're aware to some degree of the red-eye bass, um, which has really become very popular to target in Alabama. And they don't get big, you know, it's not a huge uh trophy fish, but they're they're specific to different watersheds. So you have a different species than the Cahaba, the Black Boy, the Talapusa, the Coosa, and a lot of a lot of fishermen are kind of targeting um that's red-eyes trying to go, you know, bounce around each watershed and catch catch each species of red eye. Um but it's you know, at the refuge is um probably one of the the best places to fish in the Cahaba River.

SPEAKER_05 36:36

Sounds like a cool really yeah, all those uh you know largemouth type subspecies. I I guess it's not a subspecies, uh, but there's a lot of cool ones that you know a lot of people just think largemouth and smallmouth.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

Yeah, there's a in Alabama have more different ones than any state. I wouldn't doubt it. I think I read the y'all would know. I may have dreamed that up, but I thought I read where Alabama had more of the subspecies than any state.

SPEAKER_05 37:01

Yeah, I was reading about a Bartram's bass the other day. Uh that's the Coosa.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Um Yeah, I said there's one for every there's a distinct species for almost every major watershed in Alabama. So you have the Coosa, Cahaba, Talapusa, Black Warrior. Um, and you know, it's a kind of interesting thing because as people have got more interested in it, um, sort of to your point earlier, we're learning more about some of the challenges that these fish face. So they're they're hybridizing with other fish. And so um we don't have as pure of populations as these red-eyed bass that we used to have. Um, but the awareness, you know, the fishermen that are really enjoying catching them has really elevated those species to get more attention, more protection. And um we're doing doing a lot of work trying to to breed the Cahaba bass and reintroduce pure populations back into places where they historically were.

SPEAKER_07 37:56

That's really interesting. Uh it's it's amazing how people care when people care about stuff, things happen. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:03

While we're on the subject of fish, if you don't care, real quick, I was down there last year in the Cahaba with a friend of mine who uh takes uh he takes a lot of underwater photos of fish and uh and uh he uh we were looking at the rainbow shiners, and uh they're if you've never seen rainbow shiners, it's they're crazy looking. They don't look like they belong in any creek in Alabama. And uh they're I think it's when they're all spawning, they're they're all you know huddled up in like a ball, and he gets crazy photos of them. And uh that's something worth looking looking at. I I think I don't know if they're endangered or anything, but they're definitely uh he doesn't he will not share the spots that he finds them at, and so they're he keeps up keeps that pretty quiet. But they're in the Cahaba and uh they're a really cool looking tropical fish.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Yeah, I'm looking at them right now. Yeah, Landy Landy Googled them up later.

SPEAKER_05 39:01

I must have seen that because of you. I saw it in my feed the other day. Somebody was underwater filming a ball of these, uh spawning, and uh they had their color, their spawn color going on, and there was other species attracted to that ball, and they were also laying their eggs in there. Hell cool. You know, you can put a pair of goggles in your backpack on like a weekend camping trip. Uh you're on a little creek and spend a lot of time just looking at cool little fish that you didn't even know existed.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

You didn't grow up on the Tom Bigby. Yeah, you didn't grow up on the Tom Bigby like me. I've got to feel the fit.

SPEAKER_08 39:40

That one's long.

SPEAKER_07 39:42

It's got to be so uh Dave, let me ask this. So let's just could you kind of explain how many miles of lilies there are today and then take us back in time 20 years ago, what it might have looked like then, and maybe what y'all are trying to get back to. Is it more or less? Uh are we going in a good direction or or in a bad direction?

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Well, so when you talk about the species as as a whole, you know, you probably have to go back a little bit further than 20 years ago, um, probably 50, 60 years, you know, when there's really building a lot of dams. And I think, you know, estimates are we've lost something like 85% of the the populations of these flowers. Um on the Cahaba River, you probably have less than less than a mile total where where these these flowers exist. Um I I feel like, you know, I'd I'd like to say that we're at least holding the line, you know, we're not losing more right now, just the the amount of effort that we're putting in to ensure that the seeds stay where they should. Um but I I'll I'll be honest, you know, it's a it's challenging. I mean, there's um you know multiple kind of threats and pressures, and um every year you're kind of really risking this this big decline when you know the water water level's not right through the blooming season, they don't have a chance to be pollinated. Um, you know, maybe it's it's catastrophic drought. Um and so I I think that we're sort of at least at this point right now, we're at least sort of holding steady. Um there's a lot of lot of people around the southeast that are trying to re-establish strong populations in other places. Um but I I think that if you you were to go back, you know, before we got into that dam craze, um they they were really common all across the southeast. I mean, you would see them in almost every southeastern river and certainly every big river in central Alabama. And I'll tell you what's funny is that you know, Kyle, Kyle knows it being being around uh the river folks, but um, you know, some point long before I was around, people started calling them Cahaba lilies. And uh so people people think that they only grow on the Cahaba River, that they're nowhere else. That um and so I get a lot of grief from my my river keeper uh colleagues because they they think we were claiming them as our own, but um it's just the the population that we have on the Cahaba is so spectacular that that people just kind of have have gravitated towards it. We we just got through this kind of peak bloom about a week and a half, two weeks ago, and um we had people from 30 states, you know, out at the refuge, people from you know different countries like all over the world know about this bloom on the Cahaba River and come to see it, you know, from Mother's Day to Father's Day.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

That's incredible. That's a g that is a geom right there.

SPEAKER_07 42:40

Yeah, it really is. GM GM. Well, we're so thankful that there's people like you and your organization and others.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

Uh I'm sure there's a whole team of folks that uh my question was like, can you and and every species is different? Sounds like the even though they're they're similar, very similar in appearance, the the the flower, the uh they're really different in like blooming and propagation and whatnot. Um the swamp leather. So can you not is there any way to collect seed and store them like we do acorns? You know, you could even store acorns, probably only a year, but some of them you could do two years.

SPEAKER_09 43:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:15

I don't know if you is there, you know, and of course a lot of seed you can. Is there is there a way to store the seed for as a safety measure for some event, you know?

SPEAKER_00 43:23

Yeah, so that's what some of the the kind of research is happening now. We hosted a a partner from Auburn University last year that's doing a lot of of drought research and trying to understand um how we can preserve seeds. Um, but there's also a belief that that these populations are genetically distinct from river to river, too. So you know, moving them from one river to the other river is not you know not what we want to do either. Um and so it's been, you know, I think that's that's really the most fascinating part of the work that I do is um I joke with people all the time that you know, if I I wanted to ask you how many yards the And back had for Alabama against Auburn in 1935. You could tell me that in two minutes, but we don't know there's so much we don't know about these plants, the fish, uh, the things that live in the Cobra River, that that I have a whole lifetime of learning in front of me that I'll never, you know, never be able to know all of it. And um, and I was gonna say, you know, one of the really cool things for us, which Kyle alluded to, is that as technology's advancing, it really gives us the capacity and and ability to do things that we couldn't do. So, you know, 10, 15 years ago to take those underwater pictures of the rainbow shiner um was only accessible to a very small number of people who could afford the equipment to be able to do it and stuff. And now you got people that go drop an iPhone in the water and can can see really cool, amazing things and share them. And so, you know, this this what you guys are doing, sharing this kind of information is critically important because you know I don't think people have had access to it as easily as they do now either.

SPEAKER_09 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:00

Dave, is there a website that our listeners can go to and w and and learn about this or maybe even donate to y'all's cause?

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah, so it's Cahabarivercoalition.org. Um we just you know, in the last year we we merged two organizations to form a a bigger collective organization. Um and and you know, it's kind of funny because we, you know, both organizations talked about how much we collaborate, work with other people, and then we didn't work with each other very much, right? And so this is an effort to kind of really, you know, streamline and and be efficient. And you know, I think you guys won't be shocked to know we we never have enough money to do all the work. And um it takes people, you know, being being willing to invest in that work to really move it forward and and just tremendously grateful for the people who who do that because you know, just like for for Kyle, for anybody that does does this kind of work, it it really takes the participation of of the public to be able to make it make it happen.

SPEAKER_03 45:59

Yes, that's exactly what I was alluding to.

SPEAKER_05 46:02

I know the the first time I learned of of you know your organization, uh I was actually at a concert at Tuscaloosa Amphitheater and and somebody had a booth set up, and I believe it was Black Warrior River Keeper. Um I even uh the band during a break announced them and the person got up and spoke about it. Um and I remember when I came home, I checked it out, you know, followed it on social media. Um I grew up in Jackson, Mississippi, and uh there's a Pearl River River Keeper there. Um so can if if somebody out there has a creek or river nearby, I mean, is that they do they start a chapter? How how does how does that work?

SPEAKER_00 46:50

Yeah, so it's you know kind of depends on if it overlaps the jurisdiction of another river keeper, waterkeeper. Um, but you can apply to be an affiliate, you can start your own organization, and and certainly, you know, always I think any river keeper is is available to kind of help sort of start that process. But you know, the the big thing you got to do first is get some buy-in from the community where you're trying to do this work because you can imagine, you know, people are uh people think I'm some kind of crazy wild uh wacko environmentalist and stuff. And um there's a there's a real tension sometimes between the work we do and um the the way people live their lives every day. And um I I try to tell everybody all the time, you know, I'm I'm just like everybody else. I I own a a house. Um I'm sitting in a car right now, I use a cell phone. I mean, I'm part of the problem as much as everybody else. And and what we really, you know, kind of advocate for is some balance, right? Like if if we're you know, be none of us lives a environmentally neutral life. I don't I don't care you know how much you care about it, how many how much effort you put into it, you you have an impact. And so um, you know, kind of reducing the the um sort of perspective, I guess, to just being um we're we're just people who who want to preserve and protect these places. I mean, I've got a young daughter. I would hate to think that when she's my age, she couldn't take her kids out to see the Cahavalilies because we we damaged them too much.

SPEAKER_04 48:23

Uh I think that's also a good opportunity for if you know hunters and fishermen to get involved with river keepers because obviously the health of the rivers uh is gonna affect uh the fish that live there. And so especially these small streams, uh they can easily get over pressured and like they're even more prone to pollution than than uh the larger rivers up my way, it where it can still happen, especially on the tributaries of it. But um, I think I I where I'd really like to see more fishermen involved in river keepers because it's it's gonna help them and help everybody else.

SPEAKER_07 48:59

So yeah, love the name.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

You know, there should be uh mindfulness for us. You know, we've started something a couple years ago that's very popular with our real estate uh officers, and they have a na uh a day of conserv an annual day of conservation, and you know, it made me think of that because one first or second year a group they took a big public lake in I think Louisiana and they had a fishing tournament, but they had the weigh-in on who could collect the most trash, and they got just I mean, enormous amounts of trash and cleaned that lake up. I thought that was such a cool idea. And a creative way to do it. They literally had a weigh in with trophies and stuff and prizes for who collected the three. You know, who collected the most and had the most, you know, tonnage of trash off the lake cleaning it up. So I mean the little things like that could go a long way if it spreads.

SPEAKER_05 49:49

Yeah, people are just taking it in into their own hands. You know, we talk about this, you know, we're big turkey hunters, and we're kind of doing the same at our places. We're self-regulating, we're improving the habitat, and it's it's kind of the same with what's going on here. Um, I remember seeing a couple years ago um where uh like a check dam got removed in Alabama. I saw it on social media and and folks were all excited. You know, a lot of these little low head dams and check dams don't really serve the purpose that they were put in place for anymore. And so, you know, if you've got one in in your community um and you know somebody with pull or whatever you want to call it, uh bring it bring it to the city council's attention or the or the county or something, and maybe they can do some investigative work. And uh if some of these aren't needed, quote unquote, anymore, uh, you know, we can start trying to remove some of these things and bringing things like the Cahaba lilies back.

SPEAKER_07 50:53

Okay, guys, hang in there with us now. We got a trivia question. And Kyle, you and Dave need to y'all could work together as a team on this trivia question. Dave, I would lean heavily on Kyle if I were you. That's my little tip of the bag. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 51:08

We'll see. Yeah, well. Don't make assumptions, Bobby. So we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

All right, so our uh trivia is brought to us today by our buddies at the Peanut Patch. Love those boiled peanuts.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

Love boiled boilnuts.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

So we had a listener who left a review on YouTube after watching uh episode 439, Snake Bite with Dr. Ned. Oh. Dustin Baker 1852 says, Laney has moved to the top of the class. Can't believe Bobby didn't know the lonesome dove reference. That scene plays in my mind every time I see a water moccasin.

SPEAKER_08 51:44

Nah, thank you.

SPEAKER_07 51:46

Who is that?

SPEAKER_01 51:47

Dustin Baker 1852.

SPEAKER_07 51:49

I don't think they had water moccasins way out there, though. Sure they did. Nonetheless, that's what I was doing. Everything was true.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

I mean, they had a swarm of them. Yeah, Kyle could tell.

SPEAKER_07 51:58

Did they have water moccasins way out in Montana or no? That was in Texas.

SPEAKER_03 52:01

That was Texas, dude. You didn't even know that.

SPEAKER_07 52:03

It was the first river they crossed.

SPEAKER_03 52:05

Yeah, Bobby. Everything was true in Lonesome Dove. That's a fact. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 52:10

Forest gump and lonesome dove. What I do know completely true. Have y'all tried the buffalo flavored peanuts? They are unbelievable. I do know that. I'm kind of hoping they'll come out with a deal.

SPEAKER_03 52:22

They'll set you free like the truth, I promise you. Yeah, they will.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

All right, look, guys, by not coming. Yeah. We messed up by not coming to y'all because last time we left with some buffalo peanuts. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 52:34

We're just like a we're gonna have like a deer feeder over here baiting you over with some peanuts from our buddies.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

All right, so bear with me, guys. Uh Bobby wrote this question, chicken scratch, and I think he's really trying to kind of get me here. So, all right, so who what am I? Okay.

SPEAKER_08 52:52

What am I?

SPEAKER_01 52:53

I'm a perennial that can grow one to six feet tall. I have erect, leafy stems, often in clusters with raciums of flowers.

SPEAKER_08 53:06

A what? What a race.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

A raceme, race. Racine. I googled it. Race. All right, race. Although relatively uh although common, I am considered handsome, and this has resulted resulted in my be resulted in me being scarce in some areas. I depend on hummingbirds for pollination, and I can also attract butterflies. This is the most my flowers are dark red.

SPEAKER_05 53:42

Bright, bright red. Like super bright. So Duddy knows what it is. And you often find them in low areas.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Oh, you think that was the bonus question. Oh, yeah. The low areas. Oh. All right. Would you like me to read that again? No, no. We do not want you to read it. That's way too much information. That's TMI for it.

SPEAKER_03 54:06

He just named it.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

He did?

unknown 54:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:08

Cardinal flower?

SPEAKER_05 54:09

Cardinal flower. He didn't even need the hint.

SPEAKER_03 54:12

Oh, yeah. My only thing, I've we've got them all down through here, and I've never seen one six feet tall, though. Maybe it's on the two feet.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

The flower on the back of the last t-shirt we printed for our organization is the cardinal flower.

SPEAKER_07 54:27

Looking good. They're a beautiful flower. They're awesome. Yeah, and we sell them at native nurseries, don't we? We do.

SPEAKER_08 54:33

I don't think we have any right now, but we have sold out. We're going to grow some.

SPEAKER_05 54:37

There's also uh its first cousin has like this lavender color. Which one's that one? I forgot the common name of it. Lobelia something, but it it looks the same, but it has a purpley blue flower on it.

SPEAKER_03 54:51

That's what I have in my house. We're gonna get Kyle started on wildflowers, and and like we're not gonna stop for hours. Oh, yeah, but what's the uh green blue? The very, it's like the honeysuckles, and you smell the honeysuckles like the saddest time of the year because that means turkey season's but there's the um especially on the Knoxby River, there's the it's it's kind of similar in the flower, except it's got the yellow spray. Is it Indian pink? You know what's called? They're red with the little yellow tongue and all in the middle. Those are beautiful too, but they're like in first of May, you know, time of year. They they look similar, but they they both grow the the around here, all the um cardinal flowers are in the you know, like next to the creek, wet, low, super rich soils, dense shade. Uh this one grows in the big timber too, but it's in drier ground.

SPEAKER_05 55:42

I've got them in my yard, all over my yard.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

I've just always been fascinated by stuff that will grow in beautiful growth in the shade. Yeah. You know, that's that's not that terribly common. Yeah, but that's another one I've that I've remembered in the spring.

SPEAKER_05 55:56

Electric red. Kyle, you look like you wanted to say something.

SPEAKER_04 55:59

Oh, it's hard to seed collect. That one is. It'll those seeds like explode when they uh when they're ready. And uh so which one to be there at the right time. Cardinal flower? No, the uh Indian pink. Yeah, yeah. So you have to put something over the top of the flower ziplocke to catch the seeds. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 56:17

Jewelry bags. Dave, we've been doing a magazine, uh Gamekeeper magazine, for about 20 years, and today we launched our first cover that's got a fish on the on the front of it. Bobby has I'll make sure you get one in the mail. We'll get you a subscription.

SPEAKER_05 56:31

You know, maybe it's under lilies. Maybe someday we can have somebody on the cover uh on the Cahaba River reeling in a Cahaba bass in the Cahaba lilies with the blooming lilies.

SPEAKER_08 56:44

That's all, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:45

Maybe a flower.

SPEAKER_08 56:46

That'd be fantastic. Wouldn't it though? Dave, we're gonna need some help from Dave to make that happen.

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Kyle knows you had to you had to uh work hard to get me to take you out fishing somewhere. So anytime you guys want to come visit the Cava River, I'd be happy to do that.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

Well, you don't have to work hard to get Bobby to go with you.

SPEAKER_08 57:03

That's a matter of fact, don't you have your fishing rods with you? I do, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 57:07

You know, I've ridden over it the right there at Centerville so many times on 82, and you look north and you can see all the rocks, and it just looks like it'd be a fun place.

SPEAKER_03 57:15

He's fishing. He's literally fishing for you to tell him, Oh, that's a great spot, Bobby. Don't give him any information.

SPEAKER_07 57:21

There's a good barbecue place there in Centerville, Texas. It is. Hey, look, uh Dave, I'll give you the last word. So if somebody's coming over there to view them, what are the top two or three things you'd say please don't do?

SPEAKER_00 57:31

Well, I'd say number one, please don't um, you know, please don't ignore the effort people are making to to protect things like this. I mean, I know we we live in a world of extremes and and people tend to think that you know we don't have things in common. And um I I can't tell you how many people started off believing that that I was the opposite of them, and and we sat down and talked, and I I fished, I hunt, enjoy the same things everybody else does. And um, you know, so so I think it's really important, you know, that that people take time to talk to people even even when they don't don't necessarily agree, because you know, I don't think you'll ever find anybody that says they don't care about clean water, right? And so uh I think it's really important to just be open-minded. And then, you know, like I said, I think the the other big thing I would say is is don't just focus on your impact, but um when you're visiting these places, you know, be mindful of what everybody else around you is doing too, because if if we don't all help, I you know, I do a lot of work with um public lands folks, and like I said before, there not not any agency that I'm aware of is fully resourced and and has the ability to take care of the places that that they protect, and so I think we all have to do our part to help them.

SPEAKER_05 58:44

That's good stuff. I wanna I want to add to that. Um one thing I notice at public areas is you know, just because they have trash cans doesn't mean that you have to put your trash in there. Right. Um a lot of those places are understaffed, and uh if you can just put your trash in like a Walmart bag or something and put it in your car and and take it home with you and and save those staff members uh a trip when they could be doing something way more impactful than taking garbage to the dumpster.

SPEAKER_00 59:17

When a lot of times, you know, I mean, and I I would just clarify too, they're all understaffed. There is no public land anywhere that's fully staffed. And so, you know, even when they're not getting out there to do it, animals drag it out, drag it all over the place, and then it, you know, so if you can take it home with you, I think that's always the better, better approach.

SPEAKER_08 59:36

Yeah. I mean, if you can bring it, you take it home with you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 59:40

Hey Dave, where this Shahaba River is flowing, uh, especially up close to Birmingham, are y'all encountering any bears in that area?

SPEAKER_00 59:48

We hadn't seen any yet. We get we get reports every once in a while of people seeing them um around us. I haven't personally seen one yet. Um, but we get that's one of the the cool things about you know, as we've kind of grown, is that we get people sending us, you know, cool observations of all kinds of things all the time. I had had a guy send me a couple videos of some mink yesterday. Um and so that's that's a big part of of what you know helps us be more efficient is people taking the time to to send us things like that where we can kind of keep track of of what we're seeing around the watershed.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:22

Good stuff. Dudley, you got anything else to add?

SPEAKER_05 1:00:25

No. I learned a lot today. Toxic, you got any more questions?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

The more you know, the more you grow. Yeah, it is. No, I just think uh I would say that he talked about, you know, respect how hard they work on that, but I say even more deeply, respect that they do it from a place of love. I mean they genuinely unselfishly love the resource, and you know, it takes everybody's got a calling from God, and it's we're so fortunate that people like him will take care of a particular resource for us, because without that, you know, we might lose it. But anyway, just it hit a nerve with me when when you people that do what they do don't get respected. That really hits a nerve with me.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

So yeah. Thank y'all. I'll tell you, most people that do this work don't do it for the money. That's right. Ain't no doubt about that. It's uh tremendous amount of passion, and and I've been fortunate. I mean, I've you know known a lot of people that that did this work before me that mentored me and helped me, and uh and I was really fortunate that my wife didn't divorce me while I I grew into this career, right? Same thing about turkey hunting in my wall.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:33

I think we're all lucky.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:36

Yeah. Kyle, how's everything in your world? Are you still cranking out uh videos on TikTok and Instagram and all that?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:45

Yeah, yeah. I am about to head up to Virginia this weekend for a uh bio blitz that uh Southeastern Grass and Institute's putting on. Um so that'll be fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:55

Well, we need to we need to get up with those guys at some point. Yep. Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:00

Well, Kyle's got some great videos out there, so if you don't follow him, go and I'm gonna start following you, Dave. Uh really real impressed with what you're doing over there. That's a that's a real pretty important part of the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:13

Loved that Cobble River and the lilies, especially. I remember 10-15 years ago you sending me info on them.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:21

Yeah, that's right. It has been that long, but I've I've been aware of them.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:24

Yeah, and and if uh if you guys have a local wildlife refuge, try to go out there and support it. Um we we have a local, you know, we have the Noxabee National Wildlife Refuge here. It's incredible. And I'm a member of the Friends of the Knoxaby Refuge right here.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:40

He's got the cup. So for God's sake, y'all out there do what listening to all this stuff, don't take it for granted, is that message, too. I mean, you just don't go take from it and abuse it and and take it for granted. Because if you take it for granted, it won't be there for you. That's just how it is. That's right. And the good the last little thing, too, is like we, you know, and especially me, I'll come off a little preachy like I probably just did right now, but it's because we care so much, and sometimes we're just trying to get people's attention. You know, they're out there doing their own thing in their own way, making their own decisions. That's not up to us. But what I will say is that I think people, and that's why I we talk to the masses, people are affected more in behavior changes for the better by the example set by people more than the pointing the finger and preaching would ever do, you know. And so the more everybody out there can become get their own little vein they they run in and do things for the earth that we was created for us, then you're setting a good example. I think it spreads it more that way. So don't don't take it lightly. You could you don't have to have a voice, you can just go set a good example and it'll spread the word. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:50

It's funny you say that. I used to I used to tell people not to litter, right? And um, you know, you got a 50-year-old man hadn't learned not to litter by that time, telling them it's not gonna stop it. But you go pick it up after he drops it right in front of him, and and it does make a difference. And so I think setting that example is really important.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:10

Good point. All right, Dave, thank you for all you do. Yeah that's that's incredible. Thank you for your service. Enjoyed learning about you. Kyle, we know all about you, and we yet we still hang around you a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:23

I appreciate it. Just remember, do remember Kyle, you're in the you're in the fold here in the family, and uh, if nobody's picking on you, you got no friends. So yeah, I think you got a lot of friends. Uh I'm used to it. All right, guys. Why don't you say goodbye, Dudley?

SPEAKER_07 1:04:38

Goodbye, Dudley. Get us out of here, Richie.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:40

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of the Game Keeper Podcast. And be sure to tune in again. Subscribe to Game Keeper Farming for Wildlife Magazine, and don't miss the Mafio Properties Fitzfull of Dirt podcast with my good buddy, Ronnie Coast.