Recipe for Greatness
Recipe for Greatness
From Lawyer to Burger Mogul: Zan Kaufman's Journey with Bleecker Burger | Repost
What ignites a person to leave a prestigious career for an uncertain venture? Meet Zan Kaufman, the dynamic founder of Bleecker Burger, who shares her journey from a corporate lawyer in New York to a renowned burger entrepreneur in London. Discover the moment that turned Zan's passion into a thriving business and how her core values of equality, inclusion, and diversity laid the foundation for Bleaker Burger's success.
From a single street food truck to a bustling kiosk in Spitalfields Market, Zan reveals the strategic decisions that fueled Bleeker Burger's growth. Delve into how her legal expertise played a vital role in navigating business contracts with confidence and maintaining operational integrity during the expansion. Zan's transformation from hands-on operator to strategic leader offers invaluable insights into the importance of mentorship, peer support, and adaptive leadership.
The pandemic posed unprecedented challenges, but Zan's resilience and commitment to her vision kept Bleaker Burger afloat. Listen as she candidly shares the obstacles faced and the strategies employed to overcome them, from managing supply chains to navigating government schemes. Reflecting on both successes and setbacks, Zan provides powerful lessons in leadership and strategic hiring, emphasizing the importance of staying true to one's values. Join us for a heartfelt discussion filled with gratitude for our listeners and practical advice for aspiring food entrepreneurs.
3, 2, 1, 0, and liftoff, liftoff, no Well, hello, boys and girls, and welcome back to the podcast. It's been a nice festive break, but now we're back to bring you some amazing guests and hear all about their stories about how they got to where they are. This week's guest is an amazing guest who I've been wanting to have on for forever. We have got zan koffman, who is the founder of bleak burger. Now you may know all about their world famous burger. They've won countless awards. They've won london's best burger from the young and foodish tastiest burger in the world from foodie hub. Londonist magazine said they were the greatest burger in the world has ever seen and squire magazine said london's best burger. That's just some of the praise they've received over the years, but what you may not know is the story behind Bleaker Burger.
Jay:Zan started off her career in New York as a corporate lawyer, but after pondering some of life's bigger questions, she started working in a burger joint. Now, this burger joint and the food that they were serving changed Zan's life. She left her corporate job and she worked there full-time. When Zan moved life, she left her corporate job and she worked there full time. When Zan moved to England in 2011,. She began her plans to launch her own burger business, bleaker Burger. What started off as a van in a car park has now grown to four restaurants.
Jay:We hear all about her journey. The new challenges that come with scaling Zan dives into the importance of her values and standing for things bigger than the business, about equality, inclusion and diversity. Zan is bloody awesome. I've admired her and bleaker burger for so many years, so this was such an honor. For me. This is a recipe for greatness, and I'm Jay Greenwood Aizan. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Like I said to you before, we sort of pressed record what an honour this is and how much I've looked up to you for so long, so thank you so much for coming on.
Zan:Yeah, no, it's a pleasure, Jay. You know it's always nice to be told that you know a little bit of someone's. You know, inspiration, I guess, or admiration for you. So thank you.
Jay:It's well deserved. So I wanted to jump in and go back to 2010. And you're in New York and you're working as a corporate lawyer, yeah. And then you start working at a burger joint and I was thinking, surely you must have been so busy anyway and you must not have had any time at all. So I was sort of wondering why did you want to go work there and also what impact actually had on you.
Zan:So I mean yeah.
Zan:I mean I was extremely busy. You know, corporate lawyers at least the kind I was sort of work, you know, 60 plus hours every week and the job can become, you know, sort of monotonous and you know not, yeah, it was. I guess I was getting more like substantive value out of my personal life than my work life and there was like a real dichotomy between the two of them and I guess I was just, like you know, wondering, thinking like you know what else is out there. You know, I was just sort of it wasn't like it was like consciously part of my thought on a regular basis, but I think I just needed a little nudge and I probably would have, you know, been able to fall into something. I just needed the right path. So it's sort of, you know, the whole burger thing sort of it found me a bit.
Zan:I had met my, I went to college with someone whose mother ran a burger joint in the East Village and I went to go see her just to say hello and have some food and she didn't really have like much of a brunch. You know, service on the weekends, which is strange because you know every restaurant in New York has really aggressive brunch. You know that they make so much money at brunch. So I asked her if I could, like you know, just run brunch on a Sunday and try to build that for her. You know, and it's pretty easy not to work on a Sunday if you don't want to. So I did that.
Zan:You know, one time at this burger joint and she had a lot of other food there besides burgers and I don't think it was still, like you know, maybe a week in that I actually had the burger and it just sort of it really captured me. You know, I was just so surprised by it, like I didn't really eat that many burgers at the time, I wasn't. I thought they were a waste of time. Most of them, even in New York, were, were pretty poor. So I guess the burger was like the nudge I needed.
Zan:And you know, I guess you know I don't remember exactly, but I probably reflected on it for about an hour and was like this is what I want to do. Um, so within the next few weeks I I left my law job and I started working for for Zaitsev, that's the name of the burger joint full-time, um, all knowing that probably within a year I was moving to London, um, because I was gonna get married, so it wasn't as brave as it sounds just to like throw your career away. You know, I knew I was leaving within a year anyway, so I was just sort of like, let me just see where this goes um.
Jay:So that was the start of it yeah, and you had any cooking experience before you started working there at all?
Zan:no, no, I, like you know, I was sort of a slightly a bit of a home cook, but not really. I hurt my knee like four years earlier and I watched like the cooking network non-stop and that sort of like. Gotten to my psyche, I guess, like I just loved watching these cooking shows, but it wasn't like I really put that into action. So you know, I loved great food but I wasn't cooking any of it.
Jay:And you mentioned there you sort of made the move to London and was it always the plan to launch, you know, a burger venture, or was there a temptation to sort of you know, was the corporate law world like trying to claw you back in at all?
Zan:Like you know, I was dead set on making this burger thing happen Because, you know, at Zaitsev, I was there for about a year, so the passion just kept building, you know, and I was, you know, it consumed my thought process. You know I was on the computer all the time writing menus, like thinking about you know what my place might look like, trying to raise some money to open a restaurant. You know it was. I was dead set on making it happen. Um, when I came over, it was the beginning of. I came over in december 2011. So, um, you, 2012,. You know it was all I could think about. But there was a period, at the beginning of 2012, that I was working for like an American firm, a law firm over here, but that was just sort of biding time. I just needed to wait for, like, how I was going to actually jump in and once I figured that out, it was that was the last you know sort of law I practiced.
Jay:Sure, and you sort of launched in the street food scene and it was kind of at the early stages of you know, that big explosion that happened there. But was it always, you know, going to street food or was there another plan? Did you spend a long time trying to think about what you wanted to do, or did it kind of all just sort of fall into place?
Zan:um, so, like before, I realized that street food was my avenue, like I really wanted a restaurant, um, and I guess the best thing that happened to the business was not getting a restaurant initially, because you know, going through my, you know street food put me through my paces. You know, going through my you know street food put me through my paces. You know I really learned how to. You know the basic operations of running a food business, you know, and building up, like organically building up a clientele or customers.
Zan:So without that, like you know, I hear now people like opening restaurants sort of cold and you know, regardless if they have tons of experience like creating a brand just by opening a shop front is, you know it's so, so hard and with with the street food background, we had to worry about that a lot less. You know people sort of, you know, once we built up a reputation, they followed us around. So it was absolutely the right decision and it was the timing couldn't have been better. You know they say timing is everything and when I joined like sort of this street food movement, burgers were just like burgers had already exploded and then it was like street food that was exploding. So it was like you know, we just sort of zoomed into this perfect, or we we rode this perfect wave, amazing.
Jay:And were you just trading every day, just building up that clientele and just getting your burgers out there? Was that the plan?
Zan:um, yeah, like, so street food like, is really inconsistent.
Zan:You know, it would be like I, I I trade maybe like two, three times a week at times and then, like you know, more during peak, I imagine, as you know, like it's it's, you know, in summer it's more, more like every day.
Zan:Um, you know, so it's, it's a lot about like sort of balancing your stock and forecasting well, or, you know you, if you trade two times a week, it's, it's likely you're going to have a decent amount of waste. So the goal was always to sort of sign up to places where you would get close to sort of being able to sell out. So picking the right events and the right places to trade is a real learning curve and at the beginning it was so tough. You think these places would be great and they're horrible, and then you think like, oh, this is a, this is going to be a slow day, and then you just get, you know, smacked over the head with customers. So you know that that made it. You know, obviously, when you're more busy than you expect to be, that's always a lot of fun.
Jay:Yeah, and what was driving you at that point? You know when you know maybe you had a, you know a day at a market where it wasn't going well and you know you plan to sell 100 or 200, and you don't sell hardly any. You know what's keeping you going at that point full of passion.
Zan:You know, like it was like moment for the moment it was like a bit discouraging, but there was always another day, you know, and it was. I was surrounded by like like-minded people who had just started their businesses as well and you know, we sort of built up a community so there was always support in that arena. So it just like, even if days weren't great, it still usually was fun and one thing I love hearing you talk about is the product.
Jay:You talk about each element so passionately, as if you know one element can't exist without the other. How important is that about being almost obsessed about the product?
Zan:Yeah, I mean, I think so, you know as I. You know, we're sort of like about nine years into the business and I think being product obsessed has, you know, really huge advantages and also some disadvantages. I think the focus at the beginning was just absolutely nailing, like as you said, every element of this product because we were so simple. Like you know, most burger places have a bit more bells and whistles than we do. We have a really limited menu and just like need to execute on every component or else it's just not worth. You know, coming to us.
Zan:So it was like you know how the bun. Well, you know, from starting, from sourcing, like how we found the bun, how we found the beef. You know it was never a question of which cheese to use. That was always the easiest bit, although finding American cheese when I first came over it was tougher than I thought it was going to be. But you know how the bun, the sauce, the tougher than I thought it was going to be. But you know how the bun, the sauce, the patty, the seasoning, the cheese all fits together. You know, because a burger is about the sum of its parts and you know if any part is sort of off, there is no sum.
Zan:And I know the way I experienced, you know, the burger back in Zaitsev when I had that first bite, you know, and it stopped me in my tracks and it was always about creating that moment for our customers, you know, and that's still like my favorite part, you know, in normal times, because COVID is a bit different, but just like sort of watching a customer from a distance, like you know, eating the burger and waiting for the reaction, like that that always still fills me with so much like pride.
Zan:But then, on the other hand, it being so product obsessed and, I guess, lacking experience in terms of like managing people working alongside people, developing people, like I was always advancing sort of people within the business that that excelled on the food bit, um, without giving them the like, the support and training to to be able to manage a team, and just expecting results. And I think that has like repeatedly caught up with us, you know, and it's like how do we break this cycle of really giving, like the people what they need to be able to excel in these positions? Because my default was always like going back to like how the food was right or wasn't right and how we work on that. So it sort of created a pretty big gap in the business.
Jay:Sure, I want to jump onto that stuff in a moment, but I wanted to sort of go into 2015 when you finally opened up the first bricks and mortar site. That was seems like quite a quick period of time to to get one launched. So how did you go about making that um transition? And also, how did you know it was time to go fix premises and get going with it?
Zan:yeah, I mean like when to go, like sort of we made a t-shirt about this but the wheels have fell and fallen off and you know, now we're inside. But when to go inside was like on my brain from the very beginning. Um, you know, and I think some people thought it was too slow, other people, you know it was it was three years or two and a half years, so some people thought it was too slow. Some people thought it was too fast, you know. But you know, I guess there were a couple of opportunities to go sooner.
Zan:But you know, luckily, I think we made the right choice with Spitalfields and it was just. I think why it was a right decision was because it wasn't that big of a step. You know, like we had had our truck in old Spitalfieldss Market and now we were moving from the truck to like a kiosk, you know. So it's almost barely inside. It was surrounded by other kiosks, a lot of other street foods, like really similar environment to what we've been to in the past. All of our suppliers knew how to get there. You know, all these like logistical things weren't that much of a stress because we were just, you know, moving across the market. Um, and you know we built enough uh capital up to to be able to to open the first one without any sort of support from investors or banks.
Jay:So you know it on paper and in my gut it just it made sense one thing I was curious about actually was if you used any of the stuff that you learned in law school and actually in your law job that you use today. Is any of it still useful now? Or any things that you've sort of things you used to do that you now apply to what you're doing now?
Zan:um, I mean. So, like you know, obviously there's a lot of contracts to deal with, uh, whether it's like relationships with, with suppliers or vendors or maintenance people, or new leases, um, so you know, some of the smaller ones, I I look at myself, but, like you know, they, they teach you, uh in law school that only a fool has their, only a. What's the the line? It's something about like, if you're your own lawyer, you're a fool, so that that's sort of ingrained pretty early on.
Zan:So I've always had, like you know, outside sort of counsel look at the bigger things but in terms of, I guess, like you know, going to law school, practicing law it's, I think it, you know, gave me a certain level of confidence, that that that I carry with, you know, within myself through many interactions that I have, you know, and it prepares you. I guess it just it made me grow up a bit as well, you know, like pre-law school I was, you know, even law school. It was sort of sort of you know more in this partying more about me phase and, you know, up a bit, get a bit older, slightly more wise, I think you know, and be able to apply that sort of demeanor and presence around other people yeah, and you mentioned this um previously about sort of as you've progressed, people through the company, how, uh, it's been a few challenges occasionally.
Jay:So I was wondering, as you as a leader, as you've scaled and grown, how has your role changed? And I mean, what is different, how you have your day-to-day role versus at the beginning, um, you know at the beginning.
Zan:You know, at the beginning I was sort of, you know, I was a cook and a cleaner and a supply chain manager and a delivery driver. So you know all the basic. I think at the beginning what I did is what people still think I do now. Because, you know, a common question I get is like, do you still work in the shops? And it's like, no, I haven't worked in the shops for some time, like I'm too old, it's like a young.
Zan:I always felt like, you know, when I was a bit younger it was a bit easier to be running around town lifting things, you know.
Zan:But now you know it's more about, I guess, like pre-COVID, it was like I was sort of looking after the supply chain on a higher level, I was looking after property and then I was sort of, you know, managing our office team, you know, and working on the vision and you know strategy decisions, I guess strategy decisions, I guess, which you know, doesn't it doesn't come as naturally that those positions in the business as it did, just like you know, getting this street food business off the ground. So you know, it's definitely been challenging at times and I think I really needed to rely on, like you know you know fellow team members or mentors. Or you know, you know you know fellow team members or or mentors, or you know you know reading, you know it's just, it's, it's it's really difficult to to transition through a growing business still having the top job because, um, for me at least I was, you know it's on the job training um you um mentioned mentors there.
Jay:Have they played a big role for you and sort of your development as you've sort of scaled with bleaker?
Zan:yeah, I think you know like I've had you know it hasn't always been a just one mentor, but you know it's. It's also like additionally, like like peers are really helpful as well, like I always. Like you know, people that I started with in street food, like that are like might have had different backgrounds, like potentially in hospitality or like they're just I just think of it as like they're ahead of me, like I always think of, like Prue from Daisy Green or the Tom from Pizza Pilgrims. You know, like people whose businesses are much bigger than mine, who you know we all have very. You know, sometimes we have different problems, but a lot of time we have similar problems and some of the things that I am potentially going through at the time you know they've sort of seen the back of, so it's useful to to speak about these. You know common issues and, uh, how you navigate through them and of course now.
Jay:So you mentioned sort of like pre-covid, and obviously I mean your business has been forced to open and close so many times now. How has the sort of vision changed, or how has the vision stayed the same sort of through this time and have you seen a shift in how you operate, maybe to online, or is it just, um, still going to be sort of fixed premises?
Zan:yeah. So in terms of how we operate, like you know it was, I guess it, you know it was a bit of a as for for all hospitality businesses, a bit of a roller coaster, you know, end of March hits and, and we closed for two months and then we opened Spitalfields at the beginning of June, which was actually really tough, you know, in terms of like it's just not like a light switch you turn off and on. And I remember, like, right when we opened, I went to, like you know, taste the, the food, see how we were doing, and like the food was just awful and I was like, wow, what has happened in two months that our food went from something that like inspires, you know, inspired me, uh, you know, excited me to like, oh, what is this? You know, and it was. It took a while to like get the team back up to scratch, like, obviously, like people were stressed, they were, there's so many unknowns like, and then, additionally, um, you know, our suppliers were rusty, the whole supply chains had shut down, you know. So it's like, you know, our meat supply chain, you know it's like okay, they haven't had like deliveries of meat in x amount of weeks. All of a sudden like, okay, meat's coming in, that we have a very specific blend for our patty and a very specific machine and the way it's put through, and that was just like it was just a bit off. Our potatoes, like you know, I think the supply chain was trying to put old potatoes that were sitting around through the supply chain to avoid waste. So it was like we had to deal with all of those issues and that took like a few weeks, um, to sort of get to the point where we were.
Zan:We were happy with the product again, um, and then it was like, okay, now we have to open spittle fields. I mean, sorry, we'd open spittle fields. Now we had to open, um, victoria. And then in the interim we opened a new delivery kitchen site. So that was like a new operation for us. So we opened those two. And then we opened a truck at the. Our truck was open at south bank during the summer, so we were trying to get, like you know, any sort of revenue we could and any way to keep like as many people employed as we could. So doing, you know, back to street food, which we hadn't done for some time at that point, um, and then Westfield opened. Oh, then we had Eat Out to Help Out, which was just manic.
Zan:Going from like okay, everyone is sitting at home to everyone is like the busiest we've ever been, and it's like the strain I guess that that puts on. You know, people like it's really positive, obviously because we're taking money, but you know it's it rattles people's, you know mental health and well-being a bit. You know it's just like it's just up and down. And then westfield came and but it's still open and then it closed and now it's closed again. Um, and then through the midst of all this, there's like so many different, you know, like new guidance from the government, government about like grants and rates and that.
Zan:And then like then also licensing was really complex during that time. Could you sell alcohol, could you not? Where could you sell it? Do you have to do table service? So it was like my head of operations turned into an HR guru during this time and she was like seven months pregnant, you know. So it was like she, she was absolutely amazing, susie during this time like just to be able to like inform the business of what we're allowed to do and when we're allowed to do it at such short notice. And then in terms of the vision, our vision didn't change but I mean it was tweaked a bit, not not in terms of this sentiment, just in terms of its wording, but it got totally put to the side.
Zan:Like you know, right before covid, like we, I just hired a new md, like, like you know, sort of five, six weeks before, and we were really getting to the place where we were focusing, you know, on the business fundamentals and and, most importantly, people. And then covid hit and it was like all that went out the window, like no longer could the business afford the MD? Um, we had to, like all we were talking about was forecast how to keep COVID secure, which I think is just like a bullshit line, like COVID, how to keep like as safe from the team and the customers from COVID as you can, um, and then, how do we have enough money in the bank to, you know, keep us operating Because you know sales, luckily, sales. We're really ingrained with delivery and that's what people wanted and they want to take out food and we have click and collect. So, like the sales were there but we needed to get to the point where the money was there to allow us to sell. So that was a really tricky balance. And then convincing the bank that, like we needed a C bill loan, you know. So that took like 10 weeks and that was really stressful. So that became the most important bit.
Zan:You know how we keep this place open, how we keep people safe, and and the values and the vision just dropped to the side, dropped to the side, and I think now, you know, from sort of August to December, we had a pretty good run at things. You know, it was like we we had made up our losses that we experienced from being closed and now, like with the latest lockdown, sales have dropped again. So it's like the, the amount we had erodedoded is now being built back up. So you know, we're teetering between, you know, doing well, not doing well. So it's a bit of a roller coaster.
Zan:But you know, since we've gone through this before, we're a bit more calm and like being like we need to really focus on our people and our vision. You know, and it's not our vision, isn't? It's a bit. It's just not about being a burger restaurant, you know, it's, I guess, for for Bleeker, like we want to, we want to live in it, like we want the world to be equal and we want to be, like, the best burger in that world.
Zan:Um, so to do that like, we really have to focus on um. You know who we are and who we're hiring and what sort of events we want to do. You know, like, our values are about being united, being passionate, being empowering and being diverse, and that's it. It's a big like. You know we have a lot to live up to and it's, I find it like, positive in the sense of like you know this is the right thing to do and we now have a platform. Are we you know the burgers have given us a platform to to be able to like, promote, you know, diversity and challenge, like systematic racism and um, work with like-minded businesses and promote, like people of color and the lgbtq plus community. Um, so you know it's. It's like how do we keep this vision at the forefront at all times? Now, because we've been through these roller coasters, we know we can. We can challenge the, the highs and lows, like we can. We have a, you know, a viable business that people want our products.
Jay:So, like, let's use this product to do some some good in the world yeah, and when you stand you know you mentioned so many great values there when you really stand for them, does that help shape business decisions to make them a lot easier. Where you know you, you've got that kind of north star guiding what you want to stand for, so it just makes the rest a lot easier it.
Zan:It does if, like, they're at the forefront right, so like, as they slipped away, like we were making decisions without those at the heart of our business. But like you know now that, like you know, we've spent the last few months dusting the you know the dirt off and like be like okay, you know like we're treating these people like this, but like we're supposed to be empowering you know, so it's like they're now like living more and they need to.
Jay:You know, be living, yeah, with every decision, like it should make decisions easier, uh, but then you know, just because you make a decision doesn't mean there's not still a lot of work to do behind that sure, and I want to speak about your partner sorry, I don't know her name, but I heard you mention that, um, when you're a corporate lawyer, she was constantly pushing you to ask bigger life questions, sort of about yeah, what you wanted. So I'd love to find out first, what were those questions you asked yourself, and then how did you go about answering them.
Zan:Yeah. So Chloe, I'll tell you she has to listen to this podcast now that she's featured. She, you know, she was, she's an academic. She was, you know, at the time she was getting her PhD, like really passionate about what she was doing, you know, and she, like she didn't really understand why I would spend so much time doing work that I didn't enjoy, like it just didn't resonate with, like her, her sort of compass, you know. So she would, she, she repeatedly peppered me about like what do I, what do I want to do? Like you know, where do you want to go, what your goals? And I, just like you know, no, I guess no one had really challenged me on that front before, because previously it was just like, you know, I wanted to be a lawyer, I was going to law school, like it was just like I was going, you know, through that, I was on that journey. So it wasn't like anyone was challenging me about the journey at the time. So I guess it was just like anyone was challenging me about the journey at the time. So I guess it was just like.
Zan:I guess initially maybe I felt like a bit inadequate. You know, I'd really, like respected her. I respect her and her career, you know, and it was like, okay, like I guess I just, you know, wanted I wanted her to respect me and what I did for a living as much as I did her, I guess. But that I guess that ticked away in the background, you know, and then that I guess that more allowed me to jump into this burger thing, like maybe it felt a bit safer, like it didn't really feel like a risk, it just felt like, oh, this is the right thing to do and this is my path now.
Jay:So and one thing I'm really curious about is, as you've, you've grown, the business has grown. Um, you've got a beautiful boy, I think, otto. Now and I'm just wondering how those well researched, yeah, how the answers to those questions have changed over time, because I'm thinking selfishly from my perspective I'm really curious to see. I have these sort of values and ambitions now. I'm wondering how they're gonna change, sort of as I grow up and I experience different things in my own life yeah, so sorry, what what I?
Jay:I lost the question, sure so basically so I was just curious that as you've grown up and sort of you, the business has grown. You've experienced beautiful things in your life, like Otto, yeah. How has your answers to those big life questions changed, or have they still stayed the same?
Zan:I think I think the answers are still the same in terms of, like you know, I really believe that you know, because I've experienced it myself I think it's it's important to have like a career and a passion, but at the same time, I know that I was able to have those because I, you know, I had a privileged upbringing. I have white privilege. You know, like things, things weren't a challenge to me, like I was given a lot of things on a silver platter and I just took them. And I know the fight for those things for a lot of other people is, you know, they can't even begin to like think about their passion or where they're going in life, because it's it's, it's so day to day and they don't have like the support that I had had. So I think, from from that perspective, it's like you know, this is, this is great. I think everyone should have the opportunity to experience that. But how do we get sort of everyone on that playing field where they can have those opportunities?
Zan:And I think, in terms of auto, like I, I want to make that very apparent to him from a, you know, very early age. You know I I do that now when I read him like we've inherited a lot of books like thomas the tank engine and you know peppa pig, which I unfortunately he loves, but you know aren't aren a pig, which I, unfortunately he loves, but you know aren't aren't the best examples of like you know the world we live in. So I sort of make up different stories about you know disparity and these privileged white men, how you know there's a lot of white men in Thomas the Take Edge and I sort of make up stories how these are evil people and you know the train needs to save the world from them. But I think I think it's just important to instill these values in otto from an early age. But in terms of the values being what they are, I guess now they're only more what they are because of him uh, wonderful.
Jay:So I think that's a brilliant point to move on to a few quickfire questions before we wrap up the interview. So one question is do you have any books, or just an individual book, that have impacted your trajectory in business the most? Um?
Zan:I read like there was this book called good to great that I read a few years ago. Um, uh it's. It's by Jim Collins and it like it looks at similarly situated companies in same industries and like one of the companies goes up and the other, sort of just like, goes sideways, and he does a lot of comparing of these companies and why. Like you know, he finds themes across industries of why the ones are going up versus sideways.
Zan:But I think that what I took away from that book was like he talked about like getting the right people on the bus. You know you might not necessarily have like a position for them, you know you're hiring for X but they're Y, but like they're really, they're like culturally it's a really great fit, you know, just put them on the bus, you know. So you know, there's been times in the past where I just don't have a position with someone, but I just know that they are the right thing for the company. I'm not sure how, but like, get them on the team and we'll figure that out later and that's. That's really stuck with me.
Jay:Um, yeah, and are there any failures or perceived failures that stand out for you, and what did you learn from them?
Zan:yeah, I mean I think there's been so, so many mistakes. I don't know failures. I don't know if I don't really think in failure terms. I guess it's just not my mindset but there have been so many mistakes that have been made about like you know where to open. It went like yeah, I think I'm quite um rogue within boundaries, but I I'm like I go for things and I think at times I just wish I was a bit more patient and like understood the implications of these decisions. You know, like opening certain places.
Zan:Like I was dead set always in opening canary wharf and we had the opportunity to to to open a container there. And I think, in terms of you know, if we hadn't have opened that container, I think the business now would be a lot further on than it is, because it took so much steam away from us and it like we were so ill equipped to deal with it. It set us back like a couple of years. So I mean that's one that always sticks with me, but also in terms of people, because I was like so inexperienced in this field and not in terms of like you know the, the, the cooking, or you know how to build a restaurant, none of those sort of more obvious things, but in terms of, like you know, um, different roles within the business, like you know, finance or, uh, you know what an md would bring to a role like. So I had, I was lucky enough to have, like, really experienced a few really experienced people throughout the time and they did have so much more knowledge than I did, but the problem was that they didn't fit.
Zan:And you know, if people don't fit, eventually it falls out. You know, the relationship falls apart. But I was so tied to these people because they had so much expertise and I really, I guess I really relied on them and you know, I was scared to get rid of that knowledge. So they became more ingrained in the business. But eventually, like, we parted ways and those relationships you know, a couple in particular really sent shockwaves through the business that I thought we could get over a lot sooner than we did.
Zan:I mean, there's one person that hasn't been in the business for like 18 months and we had a bleaker office meeting yesterday and someone brought up a point how it's still affecting them, you know which, which really surprised me. So, like, I think you know, you know selfishly I kept these people on because of my, like my, my huge gaps in knowledge, but it had a seriously detrimental effect on the, the right people that were in the business. And I think you know and I you hear people say this a lot when you know, you like, you know right away, you know, you know within the first few weeks and you really just need to follow that, that that gut feel you get I think that's a great point sending into you and I just want to say again thank you so much for one coming on the podcast and two just for being so awesome standing up for such great values and it's just.
Jay:I really appreciate you and the things you've done. So thank you so much. As always, guys, thank you so much for listening, really appreciate the support and if you guys like it and you're enjoying what you're listening to, please like and subscribe and write a review. We'd really appreciate it. Again, we'll be back doing this weekly and, yeah, if you want to know more about starting a food business, head to wwwjgreenwoodcom. But, guys, as always, thank you and be great.