Recipe for Greatness
Recipe for Greatness
Crafting Tenzing: Huib van Bockel's Journey Creating a Natural Energy Revolution
Meet Huib van Bockel, the creative force behind Tenzing, a natural energy drink brand that's turning heads. Journey through Huib's eclectic career, from his marketing roots at Unilever and Red Bull to his initial entrepreneurial steps with a fashion venture specialising in high-end socks. Huib opens up about the vital lessons learned in supply chain management and how these experiences shaped his unique approach to launching Tenzing. This episode offers a candid reflection on aligning personal expertise with business aspirations and the transformative power of passion and commitment.
Huib's narrative challenges the conventional wisdom of spotting market gaps and instead champions the idea of building businesses on personal skills and passions. He argues that honing one's abilities and focusing on areas of deep interest can naturally lead to success, using examples like Fever-Tree and Liquid Death. With Tenzing, Huib draws on his background and love for the outdoors, creating a brand that not only stands out in the market but resonates with his values. Huib's story is a testament to pursuing an entrepreneurial mission that is both meaningful and uniquely tailored to one's strengths.
Explore the nuanced journey from a corporate role to startup life, as Huib discusses the delicate balance between financial caution and full entrepreneurial commitment. He shares personal insights on managing risks, gaining early customer feedback, and fostering a transparent company culture. With anecdotes on empathy, perseverance, and strategic focus, Hub illustrates the emotional challenges of entrepreneurship and how understanding team dynamics can propel a brand to success. This episode promises to enlighten listeners on the blend of personal values and business strategies that power Tenzing's sustainable and innovative journey.
three, two, one, zero, zero and lift off. Lift off. Hello and welcome to another episode of the recipe for greatness podcast. I'm your host, joe greenwood, and in this podcast, we interview the founders behind some of the best food and drink and leisure brands in the uk to find out how they got to where they are. Today's guest we have hub van bockle, the founder of Tenzing, a pioneering natural energy drink that is taking the market by storm. A former marketing head of Red Bull, hub launched Tenzing in 2016 with a vision to offer health conscious and environmentally friendly alternative in the energy drink sector. Hub is also the author of the book the Social Brand. Welcome to the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. Me I wanted to jump into your career before you became a founder and you had quite a big, successful career, and I'm wondering, reflecting back, are there any big lessons you took from that time, and maybe as well, if you want to mention anything that was really exciting, uh, when you're a red bull, yeah, so well, yeah, exactly, I started my.
Huib van Bockel:I always wanted to work kind of in on the creative side, to be honest, like I liked, and then I always considered myself to be, oh no, I just kind of liked creating things, you could argue. And then I went into marketing because I thought that was like then, the most creating creative business side of all the disciplines within business. I guess, looking back, I could have tried other things, you know, but anyway, uh, and then so I started at unilever, which was kind of the, you know, back in the day, when I was from, originally from the netherlands, so that was like the, you know, the the number one marketing traineeship you could get, and I managed to somehow land that job. So that was cool, and I was there for about six years and I loved it. Also, in that time, though, I started my first own business.
Huib van Bockel:So it was, we said, it was like a fashion business that we wanted to start at the bottom with socks. So, and it was quite funny because I remember, because when I was young, there was like the, you know, the boxer shorts were like super cheap, and then, all of a sudden, marky mark came along with this calvin klein boxer shorts, right, and then they were like 50 quid. So, you know, I thought I'm gonna do that with the sock, because the sock was still a very boring item and it was also kind of really an online. So it was like you know, internet just started I think it was in 2003 or something. So it it was like one of the only I don't think clothing was sold online even really, and I thought what's a clothing item that you don't want to try on before you buy? And that was a sock, right. So I think it all kind of made a lot of sense. But, funny enough, back in the day there was no fulfillment agencies. So I remember every sock we sold we had to pack ourselves ourselves, which was just a nightmare. Um, it was a real cool brand. It was called dr finkelbaum.
Huib van Bockel:You'd get prescribed the sock. You'd kind of you do an online psychological test, which was just, like you know, just meant to be fun. You'd see like an aubergine and what, what is it you see here, and then you get all these kind of questions and at the end you got prescribed the socks. This is the sock you need in your life and it was really like in a doctor's package and so it's really, it was really well done and I love that aspect of it, um.
Huib van Bockel:But then actually funny if when we got a lot of press, we're on the you know, we were on the fashion at the fashion show in in amsterdam and the international fashion week uh, we got like literally you know press everywhere, um, but then I found so I learned a lot from that actually, because when I started my kind of second business, tenzing, I really found out that there's three things I learned. One is you have to ideally go into business where you know something, where you know something about right, because I knew about building brands but I wasn't really good at, like you know. Basically my business was a online business and a kind of uh, what do you call it like um supply chain, which both were not my fortes. Secondly, you gotta love it, you know, and I love building the brand again, but I hated, like you know, the supply chain stuff.
Huib van Bockel:You know, packing socks, finding the best way to uh. And thirdly, you know youly, you know you have to go all in. It was, I did it next to my job, but if I did a hundred percent for um uh, a hundred percent for the profits went to an orphanage in Mexico. I used to live in Mexico and you know also that from a business model kind of didn't work. I thought I'm just going to do on the side. Everything goes to uh, you know, to to a good cause, but the business model didn't stack up in that sense.
Huib van Bockel:I learned a lot from that. I sold it. I didn't lose any business. I didn't lose any money, which is quite great. I still have the socks. I have endless amounts of socks. It was about a year and a half before Happy Socks launched, for instance.
Huib van Bockel:I'm listening about Happy, about happy socks, yeah yeah, massive brand now, of course, um, so it could have been a massive success 100. So it also made me realize the, the inside of like every idea or most ideas you could potentially make into a success. But you know, the the real, the real work starts of course when you get going like, when you know so it could have been successful. Yes, could I have made it successful? I don't think so. Right, you know I didn't have the passion, I didn't have the expertise, um, so then I moved to mtv, which is also great. I was like one of the first ever, for instance, first ever social media platforms responsible for before facebook was even around. So I kind of learned like media, social media a lot. Uh, it was a great brand to work for. It was like also like the, you know a lot of like influencers. You had the vjs and then you know I had to like choose which vjs you take, so kind of that, that the model of kind of working with cool people that would kind of enhance a brand.
Huib van Bockel:And then I moved to red bull, because then I had the perfect experience of like both media, because red bull at the time wasn't a media company yet. Um, it was just a kind of you know, energy drinks business. Uh, youtube had yet to start when I joined Red Bull, so it's quite incredible, um, and when I left eight years later, I think we had we were the number one successful brand on, uh, on YouTube. Red Bull it wasn't me, of course, uh, but it was just, like you know, as a just as a total team, we took that kind of you know, from a big media company. So, yeah, that was just, it's been a great journey and, yeah, I loved. I loved working for big companies as well and smaller companies, and you know, it's also cool to launch your own.
Jay Greenwood:At your time at Red Bull was that when you started to see an opportunity in the market? Because I guess, reflecting back on the answer you just gave there when chatting about Dr Finkelbaum, is that the brand, the sock brand? Yeah, it's almost like as well that you kind of noticed that. You know you can see the trend that people are interested in fashion, but you saw the gap that it was an underserved market for, um, the socks is that was kind of. When you're being involved in the energy drink market, you kind of see the underserved market for sort of more natural, not high sugar energy drinks yes, I'm always a big believer.
Huib van Bockel:I'll talk a bit about, like you know, the, the, the markets and what we were tensing does differently, but I always a big believer also, actually based on my kind of sock experience is that it doesn't start with it, doesn't start with why, it doesn't start with a gap in the market. It really starts with your skill set and I think and I think that's if anyone's listening to this that's like you know, still at uni, or like young or ever older, I don't mind. It's all about like finding something that you really love, that you're really good at and that you can become. You know, I always like to think, you know, become the best in the world at, like what could you become the best in the world at? Right, and that's what some of my grandfather always used to say that like, as long as you become the best in the world at that, like okay, okay, you know, I don't think I can look and say I'm the best in the world in this of that, but at least I know what I'm really good at and what I love doing and I think and then strive to become really really good at that and then that will lead you onto an own business or not, or you just stay in the in the corporate world, right, but I think every cool, successful business has that right. So if you think about umevertree, those two guys there was one guy who just sold his gin business, so he knew everything about gin. And the other guy was a marketing executive who came up with three-quarters of your drink is the tonic, so you might as well drink it with the best. And they were sitting around and they were thinking, let's launch a gin. But then they thought, no, everyone's launching a gin, we'll'll launch a tonic. But these guys knew the gin market inside out, right, I could have never launched fever tree.
Huib van Bockel:So the another obviously the marketing darling at the moment is, uh, you know, liquid death. Now that guy, no one else could have launched liquid death but him, right, he's like, he loves his, like he's a tattoo artist, he's like he loves his punk music and he loves sense of humor, like his. His thing is like to become a humor brand, right to create content that is about humor. Actually, he always in his interviews is quite inspired by red bull, that it's a content business. But red bull is obviously built around extreme sports and he wants to be built around sense of humor, because that was always his main passion and that he had an advertising background, a content creation background, you know. So no one else could have built that but him.
Huib van Bockel:And a lot of people make the mistake and say, oh, what can we learn? How can we be more liquid death? How can we be more fever tree? But that misses the whole point. If you've got to be more you like, what is that you do? Right?
Huib van Bockel:And if I look at myself in that regard, like so again, if I was like, was I the best person on earth to launch an online sock business? No, you know, I was in the netherlands like it wasn't. Like if I would have been in silicon valley right, you know that point in time if I would have had that idea there, if I would have loved, like you know, uh, d to c type, you know, challenges I it would have been a massive success. But I don't think I was the perfect guy to do that at the time. And when it comes to Tenzing, of course, like there was no one in the world better suited than me to do that at that point, right, because I knew energy drinks really well.
Huib van Bockel:So, if I look at my personal passions, I'm always about, like, I love the outdoors. I love, like you know, surfing, I love kind of hiking, running. I've always loved the outdoor sports and I've always loved nature a lot and I've always wanted to do something. That was a positive thing that you said. I wrote the social brand. It's all about how can a brand be something positive, you know. So all those things together made me the perfect person to launch that specific.
Huib van Bockel:You know, the first ever natural, low calorie, uh, sustainable energy, drink business, right, energy from nature. For nature was our first kind of, my first kind of insight. So I think that's really where it starts. If you want to start your own business, what are you extremely good at, uh, and what can you just get better and just love doing? Because that's also like you know. Again, I think purpose is also very much overused, because and why? Because I do believe in purpose a lot, um, I believe in making a difference, but but very often purpose then gets confused by like, oh, I want to kind of, you know, make the environment a better place, start there, like, start with your wife, but that doesn't work if your skill sets don't match that right, so you've got to start with your skills first, um, and then kind of build it from there.
Jay Greenwood:Like you know any, any founder, any business you you tell me you can see it that it's just one specific skill set that they were really good at, that no one else could do, and that's where they built their business, not so much a gap in the market I think that's super interesting and it makes me think about an interview that I heard you talking on, where you basically said you know, I think that people, especially younger founders maybe they're over-indexing on like all these business books and just spending so much time of like research and case studies of, well, this is how they did it, so I'll just create something similar and maybe I'll have some success as well. But I guess what you're saying is ultimately, that's not how it happens. It comes from what your skill says that drives you to kind of then build something and then you can create that purpose or mission around something that your skill says designed to actually create yeah, 100, and I think I'm always also very wary of that sense, in that sense like advice or like you know.
Huib van Bockel:So that's why I hate like start with. Why, for instance, because it's like, it's just simply not true. Like the examples he uses in that pot, in that kind of story, is like you know, apple started with they wanted to change the world and then they you know, of course, they didn't start that way. There wasn't like let's change the world, what do we do? Like self-help books, yoga retreats, uh oh no, let's build a computer. You know, it was like Steve Wozniak was this massive computer wizard and he wanted to create like a really good computer that could sit on your desktop, right, that was his insight. And then Steve Jobs was, of course, with his business mind, made that into.
Huib van Bockel:But it started with computers, started building a great product. It's something that they loved. That's where they lived, that they loved, that's where they lived. They were like you know, they're both an intern, just hewlett-peckard or whatever, right, so it wasn't just I'll start with my what I want to achieve the world. It was literally they started with their products right and with their skill set. So so I think and again, it doesn't, I wouldn't be so offended by start with why if it didn't put a lot of people on the wrong direction, like I do. I do. I've done a lot of speeches in the past and I've had stories where literally someone would come to me. So I've got my why. I want to change the world and I want to do this and I really think you know brexit's just happened and I want to bring people together. And then I'd say what's the product?
Jay Greenwood:oh, we didn't have one yet.
Huib van Bockel:But you know, think about cookies. This is a true story, so it's like you know. So it just puts people on the right, on the wrong. So I think, if you want to go for your Everest, if you want to go for your start, the key question is like what can you do that no one else can do, which just seems so logical? But we've lost our connection with that. I think you know, back in the day, whatever before marketing books or anything, you just thought am I a great pot maker? Can I make pots that no one else can make? And then, of course, that would be, you wouldn't think like, oh, where's a gap in the market? And I think that's. We've lost that a bit. No-transcript.
Jay Greenwood:And I want to go back to something you said about sort of like, I think, of some of the key lessons you were talking about, and one of them was you have to go all in, and reflecting on that and kind of what you've been saying now, I guess, is it coming from the perspective, that sort of going all in? That's sort of then the precursor, basically putting the foundational work in. So you referenced it yourself, you know those careers, building that um skill at mtv and then transferring that to, like an energy drink, red bull. So so I guess, do you think it's goal in, or is it sort of putting that work in at the start before you can really commit to the project, or uh well, I'd say those are two different things.
Huib van Bockel:One is just get good at a skill at one bit and I always think actually kind of being a specialist is not a bad thing, like even in for my career, for instance, I was kind of at one point. You know I did mtv red bull and then you become known as someone who is really kind of good at managing or growing cool younger brands, you know. And then again you know, whatever I would get calls from what you know, nikes, and you know you can imagine that right, if I would be more like a broad, skilled set marketing person, you probably would get less headhunted, right. So I think, even if you wouldn't want to start your own business, I think you know building that skill, building that kind of expertise, I think is crucial. Then the second point, which is, I think, a separate point, is that if you start your own business you have to go all in, at least psychologically. And I actually think it's like.
Huib van Bockel:So when I did my sock thing, I just did it on the side, wasn't fully committed, didn't want to spend any money on it. When I started Tenzing I was all in, but I was also careful. So all in doesn't mean like, oh, put all your mortgage in it straight away. So I did it. Like you know, I had a job on the side for a while. We worked in a hotel lobby for about a year, two years. Even so, I was really cautious in the beginning, wanting to prove the model before I, like, started spending ridiculous money or get funding in. Actually, we were bootstrapped for quite a long time.
Huib van Bockel:So and I you know those are also the beautiful examples.
Huib van Bockel:I guess you've read Shoe Dog, where he was an accountant for 10 years on the side, right.
Huib van Bockel:So he went all in and I went all in, but I wasn't reckless, you know, and I think it's good, because in the beginning you make a lot of mistakes anyway and you'd rather make them with five or ten thousand or fifty thousand pounds than with, like you know, if some people go immediately on the market and get a million pounds whatever for their startup and you'll just spend more money making mistakes and lose that money and then lose those shares as a consequence. I mean some businesses. Of course you need capital to start, but a lot of businesses you can actually be be cheaper than you think and I would always kind of recommend you go all in psychologically but be careful kind of uh, with, with, with your own finances and you know finances of the business and I think I read that you going back to the being like not reckless with money, you know you did the uh, the branding, the naming, everything you sort of did in-house at the start to really test that product like, say, before it's.
Jay Greenwood:You know, avoiding these like easy allure of consultancies who can bring you great brand and things yep, no, true, and look I.
Huib van Bockel:I remember it was such a cool moment. I always still remember that dealer. So I had to kind of, you know, because I was obviously had a big job with a big salary and we were also from holland, so we had like a uh, you know, housing allowance tied to my salary. So my wife, luckily, I've worked and works. So that's always been, you know, important for us as well and for me to be able to kind of step back and not take a salary for years because she had a salary. But we did have to move house. We had to, like, you know, loan money, um, and I remember when she said, yeah, let's go for it. I remember I just sat down on my desk and I just googled.
Huib van Bockel:First thing I ever did was, like mistakes people make when they launch their own business. I came up with this amazing harvard business review article about like, which is quite standard, but again, I don't think people do enough is go to market early, which is always like the lean startup, you know, minimum viable product theory, but I think that's very much used in the digital world and too little in the kind of real product world like tenzing is. So and I did that. I went to like you know, before I had the can, I had, like, different flavors. I had different designs. I went to like I went to google because then you know the head office, because I want to get to the offices. I went to pod, which is like a you know qsr restaurants at the time, and I went to king's college because those are my channels. I wanted to go in and I didn't go to sell to them, I just wanted their opinion. I said I've got these three flavors, um, and I've got designs what do you think? And then they are like that design and, looking back, I should have done that way bigger. I should have spoken to a hundred people with that because it's such a different.
Huib van Bockel:I think that would be also my number one recommendation when you start, because people hate being sold to right, people love giving advice, and then it becomes their own baby. You know you always think your own baby is, of course, by far the most beautiful one. So I think you know I should have done that way, because those three customers I just mentioned I think that was like 80% of my customer base for the first year because I thought, oh, this was so easy. They all said I'll take it. But then afterwards I went selling with my actual products. People are like I don't know, so. So if I wouldn't have done that, I think it would be look quite different. So I think that's one of the main things I probably would have done differently, or at least more. Just go speak to, like you know, gym chains and you know I should have just gone way wider with that kind of uh. So you do it also to test it. Like is your product? Is your product market fit?
Jay Greenwood:but it's actually amazing sales tool and you mentioned that sort of like going inside the google's king of college. How were you doing that? Were you sort of just like turning up with some samples, or were you emailing, booking? How did you sort of go about getting those meetings, I guess, to be able to stand there with your product and test it? Or were you just turning up and just giving out?
Huib van Bockel:no, well, you know, I also that in the beginning you have to be super creative, like so again, google was through, uh, someone, a network I'd worked with someone at YouTube at Red Bull, so that was pure network and they introduced me to the head of catering at Google At King's College. I just literally walked in, asked for advice on students. First, you know, I just asked them. You know what they thought because I didn't have any, and then they introduced me to the contract. I had a contract catering and then the the pod was literally just online, just on linkedin, just reaching out to different. So it's like it was a good example of all three. You know you have to try and get, you know, use everything you've got and uh, yeah, don't be afraid to kind of just ask people for, for help and how do you go about creating these drinks?
Jay Greenwood:was this just you in your kitchen, sort of creating these recipes and then how do you then go from right? I think people like this recipe, this string, so actually getting it in like can form ready to actually be sold somewhere yeah.
Huib van Bockel:So I think, look, I think that's obviously the most important thing, like so, in in the order of things, like start with your skill set and then focus everything you have on the product, not so much on the brand yet or the wise or whatever, because I think the product is the most crucial thing, right? And for me that was all about, like obviously, for my own kind of you know, mission and passion was to kind of have it from nature. So that was my only two things when I started, when I before I had a name, anything. I wanted to be pretty natural, low in calories, which was just like it still hardly exists now, right. So it was nothing like that on the market that was natural and low in calories or even natural, um, and I wanted to have like a you know for nature as well. So those were my three kind of you know, plant-based, low calorie, sustainable were my three kind of ways to start. And again, building on network wise.
Huib van Bockel:I just found I went online, I went on linkedin, found an amazing, amazing nutritional doctor. I spoke to professors like what's the amount of cap? So that's the cool thing when you start new into a category, all these other brands, all these old brands are stuck with an old product, right? So I was thinking, like you know, the ceo of co Coca-Cola without any artificial sweetness into his Coke, he would do that, right, he doesn't want to make people have a lot of sugar and become whatever obese, but he's stuck with that product, right? And that's the cool thing when you come to work, you can just start from scratch. You can just start from scratch. And that's the cool thing when you're, when, when you come to work, you can just start from scratch. You can just start from scratch. And that's what I did. I was like okay, uh, how could you just start? And then, what is it? What kind of sugar levels are really good? What kind of caffeine levels are really good? So that was kind of uh, you know, the key starting point, just talking to as many nutritionists and professors as possible. And then on the side, I was traveling and I was in in asia, and then I found out what the sherpas drink in nepal and they drink a really strong tea with salt. It's more like a soup. And then they drink lemon tea. So these are two teas people drink when they're like scaling everest and you know other high mountains. And then I immediately contacted my nutritional doctor and I said is this kind kind of you know, does this make scientific sense? And he says it does, because it's a triple hit of natural caffeine, vitamin C and electrolytes. And that then became the base of our recipe.
Huib van Bockel:And then it was also a key element to kind of go OK, but how much sugar do you put in? And I think that's an interesting element as well, because the whole market so whether it's apple juice, orange juice, coke, red Bull, fanta all have 11 grams of sugar, or they've taken that sugar out and replaced it with artificial sweeteners to that same sugar feel as 11 grams. So again, I couldn't find how this has worked in history, but I can only imagine that when Mr Coca-Cola started his brand over 100, 100 years ago, he probably looked at apple juice and orange juice and thought, okay, 11 grams of sugar is the amount people like. So then when all the energy drinks started, it was also 11 grams, everything. But that's not exactly what you need from an energy perspective, it's more what you need from a flavor perspective, right? So then I spoke to the and we came on this kind of four and a half grams of sugar being that perfect amount, because that's roughly the same as your blood sugar levels, so you don't get that sugar rush or the sugar crash mainly. And then. So then I went to all these kind of you have to go to these flavor houses to make the recipe then.
Huib van Bockel:So I've kind of found as inspired by nippor I was, like you know, speaking to my nutritionist but then you have to kind of make the drink. You have to find someone to make it and all and everyone just came up with that rough, rough recipe and I said, look, it needs to have 60 percent less sugar than you know the red bulls and the monsters and the cokes, and and they all went, okay, cool, what do you want to replace it with? And I said with nothing. And they were like, well, that's not commercially viable. So the whole industry, it still is. And I think that's such a beautiful story because it shows how like single-minded or screwed up or you know, they always just go high sugar or replace it with others. You know artificial stuff. And you were just saying that you've tried a tenzing and in the beginning it was a big. So all these flavor hours, no one wants to do it, except luckily one.
Huib van Bockel:And then we made the drink and then we kind of tested it a bit, but it was more like I liked it. It was one of those you know, scary things I think. I think it tastes great. Of course I let like friends and family taste and I went to the googles, like I said, and I let them taste. So I got feedback.
Huib van Bockel:But the the flavor was a big worry of mine because of that kind of harsh experience that I've had, like with all these people saying it's not commercially viable, and so for a long time was my biggest worry like does it taste? Like? Because if you've tasted it you'll notice that it is obviously significantly less sweet. Right, and it's sweet, but you don't get that kind of sugary mouthfeel because what sugar effectively does and what those artificial replicate. So let's say, an artificial sweetened drink usually has xanthan gum. So if you look at like you know, they've got a mix of like sucralose, asafoetida you can't even pronounce it xanthan gum to give you that, that syrupy mouth feel. So if you take that out, it's going to just taste. So if you a lot more refreshing. But if people talk negatively they say well, it has less taste as well, you know.
Huib van Bockel:But actually funny enough, instead of being my kind of you know weak area, became probably our strongest point, where people just go like. People stay with us. We've researched like why do, why do you keep drinking, tensing? And the number one reason is also the effect. Right, they don't, they all 90. That's really cool because we catered in such a way that you don't have the sugar crash.
Huib van Bockel:You have all natural ingredients, which fits better with your body. 90 of the people say they get the same or more amount of energy than a, let's say, a red bull or monster, but they don't get the crash, which is which is quite unique, I think, because when you're taking a product, it's always like you know how our body's going to react. But then the other piece, why they come back, is just because it tastes refreshing, because they just love the flavor. And I thought that I wouldn't have thought that in the beginning. I would have really thought well, people gonna, you know, are gonna like it because it works and it has effect, and they're going to like it because it's healthier. But actually flavors become one of our you know USPs.
Jay Greenwood:Obviously, now we can sort of see how our tenting is doing, but this is the very start of the early journey. I think it'd be helpful if we talk about the Selfridges story, about when you first went into sort of trying to get your first retail listing, about how that went and sort of the feedback you got yeah, like it's I.
Huib van Bockel:Actually I was at this drinks event the other day and there was a girl who just started a drinks company and she was like, oh, I'm trying to get into that wholesaler and she's like, ask for advice, and I literally like it was like ptsd. I was like I would not want to change. I said I, I didn't, I would try to, didn't want to be too negative to her, of course, but I actually talked to the friends after that with that and it's like if I could go back now I wouldn't change a thing in normal life, I wouldn't have said I would never launch Tenzing. I would have, definitely would have done. But if I had to, let's say, live it all again, I wouldn't do it because it is tough.
Huib van Bockel:And you know, when you read those kind of again, I've always loved, like Losing my Frigidity of Richard Branson or Shoe Dog, and I love those books and I'd read them. Like you know, my favorite books they are, because they're like, you know, they're exciting, and then things go wrong and they all say how tough it is, but you always think, oh, that's like, it's like a romantic tough, you know, but it's not, it is just horrible. Yeah, you know, but it's not, it is just horrible. I just don't want to sugarcoat that in any way, because you know, I remember at my first, very first experience was like again coming from, of course, also quite a big job, you know, or maybe even you could say a really big job where I had like loads of people in the team, big budgets I'd like an assistant. You know, I could say, give the kid my. You know, I'd say I'd love. You know, meeting with sky sports, the head of global head of sky sports, get them to my office next week, and they'd be in my office next week. And then coming from that to literally where no one wants to meet you, it is bigger. I knew it was going to be tough, but it was more emotionally tough than I thought. It's not that you lose friends or anything, right, but it's just harder to get meetings because you're like, oh, I'm launching this new thing, you know so, and I remember when.
Huib van Bockel:So I remember when people had told me, oh, you should go to Salvages, that's your first point of call. So I just launched, like January 2016,. Or maybe it was even like Christmas 2015. So I went there with my cans and I sent the mail, a couple of mails. He said he wasn't interested. But then I heard if you go to Selfridges they actually come down because the kind of the offices are above their kind of the warehouse and the store I mean. So I then I went there, he came down I remember it was that cold and rainy out and he came down, saw me with my cans halfway in the stairs. He saw me and he said's you, I told you I wasn't interested and he walked back up and I actually cried, I actually walked out.
Huib van Bockel:I'm like what did I do? This is like you know, this is never gonna work. I mean, there's the constant doubt, of course, like this is never gonna work. But it also made me, like you know, realize my one of my key insights. You know, because I say this story now and I don't mean it to be demeaning for that man at all, because we're like, about a year later, I thought so.
Huib van Bockel:We were in self-riches, so and I've, we have this, um, uh, this it's one of our key rules, it's actually one of our number one rule in the tenzing team is we call it love your buyer. You know, because what happens if you're a startup, you know. You have to. You know, especially if you're a startup like like ours, or like many people that have to go through supermarkets or other retailers or even try and get on Amazon, you know, uh, you have to, you have to have all these gatekeepers everywhere. And obviously these gatekeepers, they never react. They or they react in an unfriendly way or like you know.
Huib van Bockel:So we always said, you know, love them, because it's understandable. You know that man was trying to do his job. He'd already told me he wasn't interested and he was working right. So, um, and I told, I told him to come down. So it's like I've always been from that position of to really to never judge and really be like be curious. I think you know, be understanding. Why is he saying that? Why?
Huib van Bockel:And um, you know we were talking a bit about the um, the election, you know, obviously, you know, while we're filming this, trump has just become the new president and I think, if I really think, what the democrats fail to do in such a bad way is just not understanding, not being curious, judging that whole group you know, the MAGA people and the deplorables and the garbage you know what they've all called them over the years and not being truly interested in them, truly curious about them, because you can only understand someone and win them over if you care about them. You know it's and, and it's such a big thing and I think it's it's really kind of makes me emotional, even, because I think you know how could you just forget about 50, 60 percent of the american people by judging them and saying, well, they're, yeah, of course they vote for trump, because, whatever they're lower educated, you know there's no way you can understand and I think it's such a great life lesson. And even in business, like I said, you know so we've been shut down so many times by, you know, buyers and I heard so I have, you know, I've had so many stories around me of fellow stars. It was like, oh, that buyer is such an arsehole. I never get back to me when I'm like we never said.
Huib van Bockel:If someone says that in our team, we're like what, what? No, he's not, he's busy, like you know he cares about us, but he's just really busy like. So we always kind of know what we always be. With the biggest respect, we always try to understand where they're coming from and that's the only way you can get things done. And I think you know, we are now available in every single retailer. We're the only one, next to Red Bull, that's available at every single retailer in the UK.
Huib van Bockel:You know, and it's also, of course, I think, the main thing. It comes back to our products, right, it's the only you know. We always say the future of energy is low calorie, plant-based and sustainable. Like you know, I think that's a pretty clear future. No one goes no, not, it's artificial, high calorie and bad for the planet. So, like, the product delivers, it works well, we sell really well. But I think we got there because we were always respectful and we always kind of you don't give up, but you know, just be nice. So I think that's a clear, uh, yeah, a key, key rule in doing business or in life I completely agree with that sentiment.
Jay Greenwood:So well, and things do start to go off ten, seeing you start growing and I think at one point you know there was maybe an attemptation to expand quickly. I think maybe it was. I think you maybe said your dad came in with a newspaper once and was like these, these people are in 40 different countries, why aren't you yet? So what stopped you from going for that rapid expansion that maybe other peer brands you sort of see doing?
Huib van Bockel:yeah. So I think again, if you're listening to this I was, one of my biggest advices is never listen to any advice, but I think there's a couple of, because I always have to think it doesn't work. I always think it's like also, is it advice like, let's say, from the uh, you know, start with why did he ever start a business? No, he wasn't advertising executive. Right, he's a really good speaker, like he's amazing at speeches, like you know, he really knows how to grab attention, but he's never done it before, right, you know. So I think. So just make sure you go like, who do you listen to? Have they done the exact thing that I want to do, because it could be totally different, because there was another thing that was like, um, that was really trending when I was like starting out was like the thousand fan rule. If you got first thousand fans, then you're good to go.
Huib van Bockel:And I heard that so much around other fellows who are entrepreneurs about the thousand fan rule, and then I Googled it. I was like, where does this come from? And it was from a, I think a Rolling Stone editor that said, if you have a band and you have thousand fans, you could probably just about live. So that means if they buy your merch, if they listen to your songs, if they go to an occasional little concert, you could probably just earn like $20,000, $30,000 a year. So that's a whole different than if you've got your first 1,000 fans. The rest will follow, which is how it was then perceived. So I would always be careful with those little snippets and following those.
Huib van Bockel:But I think there's two things that I do think are true. One is that skill set right, which I think is a key thing, and the other one is focus. So, like, if you start, you have to choose a small area, one community where you're going to make a difference, like where you're going to add the most value. Right, and name me any brand and I'll tell you that they focus like crazy in the beginning. You know, and one of my favorite examples is always Strava. Like you know, strava an amazing app and that app could effectively just measure where you're going at what speed.
Huib van Bockel:So you know they could have done any scene. They could have done running. They could have done running, skiing, cycling, everything, but they just said only cycling for years, and I've read that. If you listen to podcasts with them, it's amazing, because their biggest discussion was oh, why don't we open up to running? No, no, we've got to make this richer still. We've got to make it richer. So for years I don't know how long, but I think it's like nearly seven or eight years they just did cycling, know, and I think that's a great example of just focusing on one community, make it work in the one community and only then they opened a second one, which is running.
Huib van Bockel:And that's exactly what we did. We did, okay, we did first of all, london only, and then, secondly, we did, you know, because obviously we were inspired by the mountains, but we're a London-based business and so we're like, I was like in the beginning, how can I kind of, you know, encapsulate that? And then bouldering was just kind of starting. So there was only two bouldering wars in London in 2016. I think now there's about 40. So we really kind of went into these bouldering communities, you know, created drinks together with them, and now we're by far the number one drink in bouldering, you know. So, again, it shows like you know again. And then what? Yeah, we didn't make that mistake. Then it's like oh, we get a great distributor in spain. The guy convinced me that he's gonna make it a massive success.
Huib van Bockel:I made 150 000 spanish cans and well you know we sold 100 or whatever, like thousand or so. So, like I would always just make it successful in your in a small area, and if that's successful, then add another area, like you know, slowly but surely grow it. And now the cool thing is like we're the number one energy drink in all london universities. All right, we're the number one energy drink in in key, like you know, in key offices. You know like, like, uh, we work. We worked at a test between us and red bull and we outsold red bull. You know so. You know, like, like we work. We worked at a test between us and red bull and we outsold red bull. You know so.
Huib van Bockel:You know, in those kind of, you know, in the in our focus areas. So that means universities offices, especially london-based universities, london-based offices, bouldering and the running community and the gym community, we are like the number one, um, but that and we only added like one extra community a year, nearly right. So I think focus is really the name of the game and it's also really interesting because if you're not, if you speak to potential, like people that are funding or, you know, want to fund, want to support you in your business, that's also they care way more about like being very successful in a smaller area than being a tiny bit successful in all over the place. So you know, heavy focus is really, really crucial.
Jay Greenwood:Yeah, I think as well, as you mentioned as well, you sort of see some of the, some founders I guess they try to expand into kind of getting their product market fit correct really, when ultimately just focusing on that one segment and nailing it is then going to be that formula you can replicate as you expand, rather than hoping just if you expand enough you'll find it eventually yeah, 100, you know.
Huib van Bockel:So I think, and like any any business, like you know, facebook is a great example, like one of the fastest scaling businesses on earth. But all they what you have to have a harvard this, you know, harvard, uh, email to get on facebook. First, you know, and then, if you, if you listen to old interviews with sukoberic, it's like, oh, I actually wanted to keep it on harvard because I wanted to make the experience more rich for the students here, like, but then because it scaled so quickly, but you know, for years they had you had to be a student, right. So, um, it was again, you know. Another great example is deliveroo. They just started in one.
Huib van Bockel:The founder I met saw them speak once. He started one postcode in London. So he just got a bike, collected all the stores there and then only when he nailed it he got the second postcode and the third. So I think when I hear someone say I'm going to start a chain of stores, I'm like, okay, well, that's never going to work. I think Brett's had one store for 10 years before they thought let's open a second one. So I think you just have to make sure you get the first bit right and then move on.
Jay Greenwood:One thing that constantly occurs, I think, when reading interviews. Listening to interviews, you sort of really strip things back and think from first principles. So I mentioned this or the idea around the four grams of sugar that you'd go to people and they'd be like, oh, how are you gonna, what are you gonna replace it with? And you were like, well, nothing. And then I guess another example is with the business books about sort of stripping it back about what actually did they mean behind that. I found it really interesting then looking at how your company culture set up in the organization where you go for a very flat hierarchy where traditionally you know that's completely against the grain. But how have you, guys, guys, set up the culture and the work environment and how have you made that work so successfully?
Huib van Bockel:Well, yeah, yeah. So I was like one of the reasons I started my business as well, because I always didn't, like you know, having people telling me what to do. I was very like, looking back at my career. I was, like you know, awful person to have on the team because they tell me, go left and I just go right, nearly out of principle. So I'm very kind of. Actually, my mom was birthday the last week and she always says, yeah, you did kind of. You know, you were never agreed with anything. So, uh, um, I think so then.
Huib van Bockel:But then I thought, if I start my own business, I'd be the only one who benefits and the other rest would then have to listen to me, which is also just not a win. So, you know, I've always, from the beginning, said, like you know, we have a uh, you know, super flat hierarchy. But I also then we thought, okay, uh, everyone chooses their own boss, which we still do. So you come into the office and so if you start new you you get signed someone and then after three, four months, you we ask who do you want to be your coach? We call them coach. Um, that would be, have take roles of a traditional boss, let's say, but also, it doesn't decide your salary on their own. Because that key element is, of course, do they decide salary?
Huib van Bockel:Um, we tried a that was a bit of a mad experience experiment where I said I just everyone choose their own salary, but that that didn't work.
Huib van Bockel:But, um, you know, so it is, it is, it's, it's, it's, it's been you know it's not easy by replacing it with something else. Um, but I think you know, the key element that we always try and have is, like, you know, you can always be opening your feedback. Um, you know, we have speed feedback sessions, which is great, like twice a year. We just like sit everyone down, everyone gives each other feedback at the end of the year. We do like 360, where we talk about your key leadership skills. Everyone gives each other a number, including myself, and then based on those scores and on the amount, so you, you sit down with your coach, like these are the key things I achieved, so what you've done, and then the whole team scores you on your leadership skills and that that combination kind of gives you your, your salary increase. Um, so, yeah, that's kind of how we've managed it in in the team and to give people that freedom.
Jay Greenwood:I think I read like these I'd mentioned it there like sort of um every sort of six months, but then also you do four see meetups. I get the impression there's a lot of radical transparency, like sort of very direct, honest feedback. Is that sort of then gives people the freedom to then kind of you know, I guess work on like select their own coach, their own boss, because at the end of it there is that radical transparency and feedback at the end of it yeah, yeah, we are indeed, like you know, super transparent about, like you know, our finances as well.
Huib van Bockel:So it's a key part of you know, we're a b corp certified business and b corp rates that you know. It's nice to see what b corp really rates really highly and those aspects we have. So it is also about, like, do you know, very often I speak to other, like you know, when I interview people that work at startups and I ask like, oh, what's roughly the turnover? And they have no idea with us, then we know exactly, share everything. Um, and yeah, and I think that is also really makes us. That's's why we've got a really high B Corps scores as well, because we're super transparent. I think transparency is probably one of our key values anyway.
Huib van Bockel:So Tenzing is the only energy drink on earth that has carbon labels. We carbon label our products. So with Carbon Cloud, we check our whole carbon footprint from crop to can and we put it on the can so people can kind of make their own informed decisions. Um, you know, of course we're a b corp. We source our ingredients, you know. So our green tea comes from rainforest alliance certified farms. Um, you know, so we're super conscious of our footprint, um.
Huib van Bockel:So I think you know that whole transparency bit is is crucial and it comes back to you know. You know really being true to what you say, right, and I think that's also. We have extreme high loyalty, so we have like. So the average loyalty of soft drinks is about like 50, early 50s and we've got nearly 85% repeat purchase and loyalty.
Huib van Bockel:And I think that goes because we're just so honest and open to you know our ingredients, you know read, you know it's all open there, it's, it's, it's you know. So I think people realize that there's never a sense of guilt. You know, when you drink a tansy, because you know it's good for your body, it's good for the planet, um, so I think you know that's why people just come back and then of course, they also like the flavor. So I think, but the transparency bit is, um is super crucial with the within our team and also with all the people that kind of pick us up well, I want to finish on one final quote that I heard you love and, uh, it says um to experience, to travel, to learn.
Jay Greenwood:that is live, and you've gone through a crazy journey, you've had a crazy career, you've built an incredible company. What does that quote mean to you now, given everything that you've done?
Huib van Bockel:Well, it's a really good question actually, because so my daughter asked me the other day because I'd been doing Tenzing for eight years and I'd been at Red Bull for eight years and I was having a bit of a bad couple of weeks and she goes dad, be honest, now, what was more, what did you enjoy more, red Bull or Tenzing? And it was a really difficult question. You know, it wasn't like, oh, tenzing because it's my own business, right, it wasn't because I mean, working for a company like that it's a lot of fun and you don't have the pressures and you don't have. And I thought about it for so long and then I actually I actually came up with an answer after a couple of months and I realized, like you know, it's, it's do you have children?
Jay Greenwood:I literally have a three month old daughter.
Huib van Bockel:Well, brilliant, yeah, exactly what it is. So they say, apparently people with children are, on average, less happy. You know I get where that comes from, because you look at you like you're probably like you know you can't sleep as well as you could. You worry about her, right? You think, oh my god, like is she. Like is she? Is her weight good enough? Is she eating well? And that never changes. Like you know, then they are. They do well enough.
Huib van Bockel:At school I didn't have any friends. So your average you, there's worry, there's sleepless nights, but there's a sense of fulfillment, right, there's a deeper sense of fulfillment and I think that's what, that's what, like it was more fun, I would say working at it, you know, or mtv, or, but it's like it fulfills you on a deeper level. I'll actually say I had periods, especially in covid, to be honest, because we nearly kind of didn't make it through covid, to be honest, and I I really got like a serious case of insomnia after that and during that. It was actually not great at all, but I came over that partly because I said to myself look, I've got something to be, I have something that I have sleepless nights about, I have something to worry about, which is kind of a blessing, right, there's a lot of people that maybe don't have a passion point that keeps them up at night. So I kind of kept turn it into a positive. You know, I would rather have my kids than not have them, right, I'd rather lay at night, waking, you know, worrying about them than not having them.
Huib van Bockel:And that's the same when I thought, okay, so that's what, like the experience, you travel to learn seems like fun again and romantic and learning and they. But actually if you want to learn what you're capable of. So again, that's what I missed, that those other companies. I didn't really fully find what I was capable of and I think when you start your own business you really see that better, and not only in a positive way, by the way, you also really oh, I'm really not that great at that bit while in a big company you can just, you know you think you're amazing because just everything goes anyway. Or, like you know, other people do other stuff that you think you're doing. So it kind of really shows you what you can do and where your boundaries are, and I think that's really quite cool about having your own business right.
Jay Greenwood:This really kind of shows you what you can and cannot do and kind of know pushes you to to your your own extremes, I guess well, I think that's a perfect place to wrap the interview and I want to say thank you so much for such an open and incredible um conversation. So much value in there, but also for korean sensing, because I sent it to you off um recording. But it's such an incredible product and it's a game changer for me, so anyone who hasn't tried it definitely go out there and try it because it is genuinely. Just once you try it, it's high opening to what a good energy drink should be like well, brilliant, well, thank you, that was well said.
Huib van Bockel:Thank you very much, yeah, and amazing, no, exactly. And that's why exactly we experience and that's also the joy of it, actually to think about it. After kind of seeing those reviews on I actually saw yesterday, I can't walk out. I see someone drinking a tenzing that you know, being able to offer a product that actually is positive is really satisfying.
Jay Greenwood:As always, guys, thank you so much for listening, really appreciate the support and if you guys like it and you're enjoying what you're listening to, please like and subscribe and write a review. We'd really appreciate it again. We'll be back doing this weekly and, yeah, if you want to know more about starting a food business, head to wwwjgreenwoodcom. But, guys, as always, thank you and be great.