BLOC Podcast

41: BLOC Party with Heidi Ranganathan, Elsbeth Seymour, and Sarah Natalie

January 11, 2022 Episode 41
BLOC Podcast
41: BLOC Party with Heidi Ranganathan, Elsbeth Seymour, and Sarah Natalie
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, I talk to three of my favorite former educators who now have a successful career in learning and development. We talk about how they got there and what they've learned so far!

Heidi Ranganathan pivoted from bilingual classroom teacher to corporate instructional designer in 2021. She specializes in the alignment of organizational needs with learning objectives and partnering with stakeholders and subject matter experts to achieve the greatest organizational impact. A career transition is possible AND remember that you are the hero of your own story! You can read all the books, listen to many podcasts, and experiment with various authoring tools, but in the end it is how you take action, reflect, and keep moving forward to support your career transition.  Outside of work, Heidi enjoys traveling and cooking up new recipes from around the world with her family.

Elsbeth Seymour started her transition journey in eLearning around January of 2021, while working fulltime as a High School Special Education Resource teacher. Elsbeth was finishing up a Master of Educational Technology, and has added a certificate in Workforce Learning from Boise State and is slated to graduate in 2022. Elsbeth also attended Tim Slade's eLearning Designer's Academy before landing a local position as an Instructional Designer at a community credit union in June. From there, she has continued to learn and grow and now works as a contractor for Winmax Systems at Apple Inc.  With a diverse background, Elsbeth enjoys creating dynamic and visually pleasing eLearning that tells a story but is also accessible. 

Sarah Natalie taught preschool, 3rd grade, and 4th grade for 10 years before transitioning to corporate instructional Design in June 2021. As a teacher, she worked with students who were identified as gifted, specifically advocating for students from underrepresented groups to access gifted education programming. This work informed a lot of who Sarah is and what she believes about learning as a tool for social and professional mobility. As a teacher, and now as an L&D professional, a core value of Sarah's has always been advocating for and enabling others to gain access to something that might enrich their lives. To learn more about Sarah, connect with her on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahnatalie/) and take a look at her website (sarahnatalie.com)!

Heidi, Elsbeth, and Sarah's recommendations for people who want to make a career change to L&D:

Connect with Heidi on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/ or on my website: www.heidikirby.com

Thanks for listening to the BLOC!

Connect with me on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidiekirby/

Or check out what I'm working on over at https://www.getusefulstuff.com/

Heidi Kirby:

Hello friends and welcome to the block the building learning and organizational culture podcast. I'm your host, Heidi Kirby. And on today's episode, we have block party number two, I'm chatting with not one, not two, but three educators who found new careers in learning and development. I talked to how do you rank it oven Elsebeth Seymour and Sarah Natali about their journey. Without further ado, let's get started. Hey, everyone, how are you?

Sarah Natalie:

Hi,

Heidi Kirby:

I'm here with Sarah, Heidi and Elsebeth to talk about their journey from education to instructional design. It is the second ever Block Party and I'm super excited. So we're just gonna dive right in. And I'd like everybody to just kind of tell me about their career journey, where they started out and where they are today. And we can start with Heidi.

Heidi Ranganathan:

Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having me other Heidi. My name is Heidi Ranganathan. And I now an instructional designer in a corporate setting work fully remotely, which is awesome. In my previous life, I was a Spanish dual language and ESL teacher for six years before pivoting into the corporate instructional design setting. So super excited to be chatting with my LinkedIn friends, LinkedIn friends here today.

Heidi Kirby:

Great Elsebeth. How

Elsbeth Seymour:

about you? So I was a bit of a late bloomer, so I started teaching probably around 30. So I have a lot of weird and odd experience before that, mainly in gaming and content creation, things like that. And then worked as a special education teacher at the high school setting. And then also an instructional aide also for three years. So all together about 10 years in education. And I made my transition this past year, and made it now all the way into corporate learning development as well. So it's been a journey.

Heidi Kirby:

Great. And last but not least, Sarah. Yay.

Sarah Natalie:

Thanks for having me, Heidi. So I'm Sarah Natalie. And I taught a combination of preschool third grade fourth grade for 10 years. And towards the end of that time, kind of started getting into creating professional development for teachers, which led me down the path to l&d and so I have been in corporate instructional design for six months now.

Heidi Kirby:

Awesome. Yeah. Very cool. We're excited to have you for sure. So I want to ask you all, first and foremost, what would you say is like, the best thing about l&d that you didn't have before? Or it could just be about like working in corporate too.

Sarah Natalie:

I will say one thing that I've really appreciated is working as the learning expert on like a cross functional team, like knowing that I am the person who knows what are good practices and learning and being able to being able to, you know, like, present my solutions for a problem. And just like being given the autonomy to take, whatever it is, whatever the content might be, and apply the best learning solution to it. That's been really great. I love it. Yeah, great.

Heidi Ranganathan:

For me, this is Heidi, for me, I like being able to not only be considered the learning expert, but people trust me, in my new position. Like as a teacher, I felt like I needed to always come with a guard up and to advocate for my students and talking with principals or parents that this is the best approach or this is how we're gonna do things. And then here's a huge stack of research that explains this one decision that I'm making in a minute, it's best to move students forward. And like Sarah was saying, they're like, oh, like, that's the best approach. You're the expert. Great. And but they're also give the resources in order to make it happen. I'm like, I need this one book in order to help me plan the best learning solution. They're like, Great, awesome, here you go. At first, I was like, what, like no proposal, don't have to wait six months and do a case study on it. Because as a teacher, you have to fight for all the resources that you need in order to teach students so just having that level of support that you're the expert, but then they'll also give you the tools that you need within reach In because they trust you as a professional and as an adult. And for me that's, that's everything. Yep.

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah, absolutely. And I would say to on that point that I feel like l&d hasn't always been that way that they've also made you fight for resources a lot. But I feel like, the more prominent it gets in organizations, the more they realize that it can impact their business, and it can impact revenue with things like customer education, I think they've become a lot more willing to spend the money in that area. So yeah, for sure.

Elsbeth Seymour:

I guess I would add in that I really have enjoyed so far, that they're very supportive of like your journey. So if you're, I want to go this way, or I want to learn more about this. They're like, let's give you some time during the week. And I'm like, Why, like, and I'm like, Hey, time to like, you know, practice for him or something. And they're like to learn

Sarah Natalie:

something.

Heidi Ranganathan:

During my lunch, and also running copies and going.

Elsbeth Seymour:

Yeah, and just slamming through podcasts at lunch while I'm trying to scarf down and grade. You know, it's, it's, that's been a really wonderful part of it. See that side of things? Yeah, for sure. And

Heidi Kirby:

how do you mention something that I recently in my previous job, hired a former educator into an instructional design role? And one of the things she said that she liked most was like, she's like, I don't even have to ask anyone or have someone come cover my class when I have to go the bathroom. Like, I can literally go to the bathroom whenever I want. My high school changed. Yes. Drink more water. Now.

Heidi Ranganathan:

I feel more healthy. afterwards. She said, amazing. Coffee throughout the day, not just around planning time. It's great.

Heidi Kirby:

I love it. That's so great. And working from home, it's even better, because you're like, two seconds away from the bathroom and the fridge at all times. Yes, yeah. Yes. Or you're right next to coffee. That's amazing. Elsebeth has a coffee maker on her desk that you won't be able to see. But trust me, it is awesome. Yeah, that's a great idea. It really is

Unknown:

2020 to Office goals.

Heidi Kirby:

Yes,

Elsbeth Seymour:

I live on a split level. And it was one of those things where it's like, I didn't want to keep getting up and down, up and down. And I'm like, I'm just gonna bring it up. And then I've got like that my coffee box and it's got all my stuff. And I've got my grinder, it gets a little messy. But for the most part, it's

Heidi Kirby:

good. Oh, my gosh, you're there. And everything's amazing. I didn't even notice the

Sarah Natalie:

grinder is going to become a coffee podcast.

Heidi Kirby:

That's quite all right. So let me ask you this. What have you found the differences to be from teaching and education to working in Instructional Design at the corporate level? Because I know, there'll be a lot of people listening that are curious about bridging that gap.

Sarah Natalie:

I would say for me, and that this is Sarah. Just the project management aspect of it has been the hugest learning curve for me pushing a project through from start to finish. And managing my subject matter experts My sneeze. That's something that I that that's a new a new muscle for me that I'm working. Certainly, you know, as a teacher, I knew what made good learning, I knew how to create an engaging learning experience, but I had never managed the process of it. Sure, getting other people to meet my timelines. So that's something I would say I'm still working on. But that has absolutely been the steepest learning curve.

Heidi Kirby:

Okay, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, it was for me too, in a lot of ways. Especially like, when you have to work with sneeze or stakeholders who are like VP of sales, or, you know, director, director, VP and above levels, and you're like, I need this person to review this content within two weeks, and they're insanely busy. How do I make that happen? Right? Yeah.

Sarah Natalie:

So a little bit of like, letting go of that, like, you know, very, I think, I think as a teacher, you have a very personal kind of emotional investment in the learning. And so learning to let go of that and also like knowing what to let go of like, okay, so if I am managing this project, and my sneeze, don't meet my timeline, that's, that's okay. That's how this project is going. And all I do is continue to push it forward. So that's just sort of been like, you know, like a mental emotional adjustment. Sure.

Heidi Kirby:

That makes sense, too. Because, yeah, I mean, that's one of the big things that makes it different in my experience, because I came from from higher ed, is that you know, Oh, I used to take it really personally when my students would want to leave class early. And, you know, try having to step outside of that in education first, I think was helpful to realize that like, no student wants to be in class period ever, including myself in my PhD program. So, you know, having that mindset and going in, but also talking to like people who are interested in instructional design, a lot of times, like, I'll ask them what they like best about teaching. And if they say, like, the lightbulb moment, I'm like, you don't want to do instructional design? Stop, wait, no, because you don't really get to see that right? Very rarely do you get to see that? So Good answer, good answer.

Heidi Ranganathan:

One thing that I think was different is changing my mindset. Like as a teacher, it's all about knowing your learners and building that relationship and fostering that parent and home connection. And those things exist in corporate learning and development, it just looks differently. So in the classroom, setting your stakeholders is your principal, your district leaders, the parents, or even like your grade level department team. Well, in the corporate setting, that's still your management or your hiring manager, your team, but you're also working with subject matter experts or your external vendors and partners, and then learning or continuing to learn how to switch my language and have a foundational knowledge of what they're talking about. So I can make the best learning experience like as a teacher, well, I needed to, you need to know the content and material because half the time the curriculum that comes to you is either so outdated, or in my case, I needed to create a new and from scratch in Spanish to support my students and learners that I had to be the content expert. And I needed to facilitate the instruction and do the assessment reporting and everything. Where in this case, I'm not the subject matter expert. And I get to really change my viewpoint as truly the instructional designer, what's the best way to present this to my learners. But it was very interesting at first, because I'm like, Oh, I was getting way too in the weeds, like a subject matter expert, because that's what I had to do. So it's learning how to take those different roles and when to step into them, so that we can make the best learning solution possible.

Heidi Kirby:

Right? Yeah, that's a really big one is finding that balance. Like there's a happy medium of knowing enough about the subject matter expert to be the instructional designer?

Heidi Ranganathan:

Do you need to fly to your station to do your needs analysis? You

Heidi Kirby:

need high? You have to have foundational knowledge of it, but you don't need to learn it at the level this me knows it. Right? Absolutely. Yeah, that's another really good one.

Elsbeth Seymour:

Um, I guess, coming from specialized, I kind of was lucky enough to be working on a lot of timelines and federal guidelines and things like that. So A, the transition for project manager was a little bit easier. But I did take a college level course in my master's program for project management as well. And that was extremely helpful. So that when I went in to my current position when they start talking about Gantt charts, and planning out and everything is, you know, we have a lot of ticket systems and all of that. I was doing okay, I'm still learning a lot. It's one of those things. I'm like, oh, yeah, okay. And then I'm like googling on the side while they're talking. But, but yeah, I think that that was a very important piece, but kind of what everyone was saying, like we have like, as a teacher, you have like, 25% of it is actually making the content, right? 75% is really like classroom management. And then when you go to corporate or it's pretty much 25% is doing the content. And then 75% is dealing with humans, adult humans and building relationships that way and things like that. So it's it's similar, but then very different, because it's corporate. And yeah, in each place is different. And you can learn the theory of instructional design, but it never seems to play out the way that you read it in a book at any of the places that I've worked. Oh, yeah.

Heidi Kirby:

100% Yeah, I really, I seriously thought as a new instructional designer who had just taken a Ph. D. Course on needs analysis that someone would be like, Okay, let's start the needs analysis. Go ahead and ask me the questions. And that didn't happen. Like, right. They're like, we need a training. And I'm like, wait, hold on. I think we're supposed to do something here, right. Wait a minute. I think there's supposed to be a step here. But for me, one of the big biggest things was like visual and graphic design. and not realizing how bad it was. I thought all the stuff that I made for my students was really cute. And then like once you learn more about like, color theory and spacing and alignment, and you know, color for accessibility and all those different things, I'm like, this is ugly, this is bad. I know nothing.

Heidi Ranganathan:

I've looked back at some of my previous like anchor charts that I made for my gosh, like classroom rules. I thought that I was doing so good about playing like, a visual like laptop, and then no food or drink next to it. And it's just like floating out in space. I'm like, Oh, my gosh, Heidi.

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah, yes. So I always recommend the non designers design book, that's a huge one that was very, very helpful. But I also had the absolute honor and privilege to work with somebody who had a background in news media production or something close to it, where she was like, it was basically like graphic design for like mass communication and news media. And so I just made her look at everything I ever created, because she had such a good eye. And I learned a lot from her. So I think that's another thing is, I always tell people who are looking to get into instructional design, to ask during interviews about like the makeup of a team, because I always encourage people to have someone that they can learn from and not to be like on an island as the only ID because it's so hard without somebody to learn from. Yeah,

Sarah Natalie:

and that was new for me to incorporate, like, you know, I think, as teachers, you know, everybody is a generalist, in corporate roles are much more specialized. And networking is huge, especially if you find yourself in a big, bigger organization. So that's something that I've like, been learning in my time in corporate is that, you know, if I make something and I'm not sure if it looks good, I shouldn't be reaching out to a graphic designer to get their feedback. And so that's another shift, because that's never a resource that you would have had available to you as a teacher. So like knowing what to ask to get that expertise. Yeah, and

Heidi Kirby:

just having people not even necessarily at your organization, but just having people like in your network with different like specialties, like, accessibility is not my strong suit, because I have not worked at places where it was valued or incorporated. So I know who in my network, like, when I need accessibility help. Those are the people I go to and ask, you know, questions of, and you can do that to a certain extent, if you're the only ID but having that person they're working on the same project, speaking the same language at the organization, you know, that is just, it's critical. I bothered my manager so much in my first instructional design role. Luckily, she liked me.

Heidi Ranganathan:

But with that, too, like I found with like the Learning Development Network, not only within my current position, but also people that I've chosen to network with on LinkedIn, they've were so helpful and instrumental in my career pivot to wanting to support where sometimes in teacher it's like, oh, it's like very competitive, like, like, oh, with their classrooms, Pinterest, readier oh, this person had custom made furniture for their classroom over this summer. And I'm like, trying to tack post it notes everywhere. fied but I was good at what I did, but it doesn't feel like there's any type of competition this way, and that people truly do want to help. And but with that, you also need to advocate and, but also be willing to give back yourself, you can't be a constant taker, you also need to be able to give back and that's what makes the learning development community so great.

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah. So on that note, what are some things that you all suggest to make that career pivot? You know, where do you tell people to get started? What advice do you give them? What kind of tips because I'm sure people are like in your DMS the right eye asking how you how you successfully did it right.

Elsbeth Seymour:

I usually try to point them towards the tools first, you know, get into the free trials of the different programs, get into Articulate Storyline, sign up for creative, you know, Adobe Creative Cloud. Start looking at like what you can build and I think the biggest thing that I recommend is the E Learning heroes website, especially with the forums and then the weekly challenge because when I was working at my first position, I had some downtime or which is normal it not normal teaching, but normal and corporate. And so I was able to kind of go in and try those challenges and that really pushed me and helped my portfolio as well to kind of land my next position. So I'd really try to push that like get in there, figure out if that's what you want to do like, because I've talked to teachers, and they're like, I hate PowerPoint, I'm like, then you're not. This isn't for you, like, go look at it. Go look at sales, like there's lots of different positions. But if you don't want to work in computer programs all day and do design and kind of jump around, like, you're not going to like this, and I never realized how much I would be in Excel.

Heidi Kirby:

Yes, in the corporate world. And I don't want to instructional design, the Excel part, like I think being an even PowerPoint, I think that's just like corporate, right? Like, Oh, I hate it. So what else? Sorry, that was a random.

Sarah Natalie:

I usually recommend that people start by looking at job boards and just reading through job descriptions. You know, after I've, you know, everybody goes and does that Google search, what other jobs can teachers do? Instructional design comes up, you know, as does, you know, maybe customer success or UX. So I say, like, read those job descriptions. Think about what in those job descriptions like, first of all, like squares with your experience, like, okay, so this thing that I did did as a teacher is kind of like this thing in the job description. But then more importantly, like, what are the gaps, and then once you've identified those gaps, then you can start coming up with an action plan to address them. Whether it's working in the tools, like Elsbeth said, or listening to a podcast, that was like a huge part for me. So here I am on a podcast, but I listened to like every l&d podcast out there reading books. I mean, there's a million ways you can fill those gaps.

Heidi Kirby:

Absolutely, for sure.

Heidi Ranganathan:

And I agree with what you've both said, Sarah, and Elsebeth. And whenever teachers come and ask me, like, how did you do it or whatever, I say, a career pivot is not passive, it's active. It's not just listening to the LinkedIn courses, because now you have a certificate, or using the samples that you've made in your classroom using Google Slides, or something you did for remote teaching online, or an example that you did in Canva. It is so much more than that. And if you want to break into, let's say, corporate instructional design, you need to sell that you have those skills to back it up with your experience. But just like as you would in teaching, in your evaluation with your Danielson Framework, I'm choosing to do this instructional strategy, because of this research theory, or I'm grouping my students in this way, because of this best practice, you also not only you need to have that, in addition to backup, your design work in instructional design. And so it's bridging all those gaps to put it together. So then that your resume your LinkedIn profile, your portfolio, and when you're talking in interviews, it's all going to play together. And then you're going to be an instructional designer. It's not just oh, I took the course and I have a LinkedIn certificate on instructional design or adult learning theory, you have to prove it just like you have to prove it in teaching every single day.

Elsbeth Seymour:

Yeah, I think that that was a really important point. Because a lot of teachers would be like, Well, I have all these, you know, things I've done. And I'm like, honestly, like, and I don't mean this in a mean way for corporate doesn't care, right? They came from the classroom, they don't want to see it, you don't. And I've had interviews that have gone south, when you just start trying to talk about the classroom and the links between the two. And it's in that's fair, they want you to have corporate experience, they want you to show that you can make it and that. And I think that can be hard to almost like, realize you have to close the door on that past life. If you're really truly ready, and then walk through the door into corporate and you have to close it, you have to leave it it's got to, you know, be done.

Heidi Kirby:

I think that's a good point from the hiring manager standpoint. Something that I'm wary of when I see it is like people that I'm not convinced are ready to really do this as a career, right? So like people who might have in their like headline on LinkedIn, ready for the next step in my journey or something that just kind of says Irene. Yeah, like even aspiring is okay. But like, there's still like this era of like, you're just experimenting, right? And are you really going to want to do this long term because as a hiring manager, I'm not trying to hire somebody for like six months to a year. I'm trying to hire somebody for a long time to launch multiple programs and curriculum and things like that. And to your point as best like some hiring managers don't have an education background, I think I'm, you know, not necessarily unique, but I do have an education background. So when I'm talking to educators, I get the translation. But if you've got a hiring manager who doesn't understand what K through 12 teachers do, yeah, they are not going to be able to make those connections with certain portfolio pieces. And that's the other issue with like, the resumes too, is that if you don't talk about your skill set, and how that makes you qualified for instructional design, a recruiter who's in charge of 50 100 200 wrecks, depending on the company, they don't know the nuances of each wreck that they're trying to fill they are looking for, do you have what is on this bullet pointed list that the company has created for this job? And if they see things that they can't translate? They're not going to pass your resume on?

Elsbeth Seymour:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I definitely had an interview where they're like, Are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? And I'm like,

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah, I'm sure.

Heidi Ranganathan:

They're like, What makes you say, you're gonna do this as a teacher. And I had to keep going back and saying, like, I never lied on my resume. I wrote, I was an educator, and then I reframed my experience. But they're like, Well, how do you know like, well, yes, I served as an instructional designer and education setting. However, I was able to do X, Y, and Z. And I'm ready to do this, this and this, because of my upskilling, as evidenced by the work in my portfolio. Like, nobody was waiting at the end, like, and here's the job for you, like, had to work for it.

Elsbeth Seymour:

Yeah, you really had to convince like, not only yourself and your family, that's a large part of it, too. But then, you know, when you're in their view, like it's a lot, it's yeah.

Heidi Kirby:

Oh, II Absolutely. And as somebody who just went through like the job seeking hiring process, trying to fake that optimism, and like, I'm ready to go, when like, you've got your fifth rejection of the day, and somebody just flat out told you that you're not right for the role. And, you know, you're running out of money to pay your bills. And like, it's really hard to keep that, that optimism sometimes when things aren't going well. So, but I think it's important, and I think it's important, how you how you sell yourself to, and I know, there's been a lot of conversations about that on LinkedIn lately. Of do I put that I was an instructional designer, on my resume to get the job? You know? And my answer is, definitely don't say that. That was your title. If it wasn't your title, write and make your bullet points explain how you designed instruction, you know, that, but that's just what are your guys's thoughts?

Heidi Ranganathan:

I was talking to somebody, a teacher on LinkedIn the other day in the conversations, and they were asking that question about why do I put instructional designer, I can do this because I do so many things as a teacher where I thought that too when I first started my career pivot, but I was explaining like, Have you ever babysat before? And if you've ever babysat? Can somebody go from babysitting a family of three kids? And then all of a sudden just be a classroom? Teacher? They're like, Oh, no, of course not. Because teachers need to do this. And this and this. Same thing with instructional design, while you have that experience of caring, of caring for kids, three of them, but in a small, confined environment, it's different in when you're teaching them against the academic standards, and going with standardized testing and building relationships. Same thing with corporate instructional design, you have experienced using some of the authoring tools, or maybe some of the adult learning theories, and but there's also more upskilling that needs to happen before you can land that role.

Sarah Natalie:

Yeah, I totally agree. And, you know, sometimes I wonder, because I know, it's a great practice on your resume to put under your name, the title that you're aspiring to, and so sometimes I wonder is that where the mistake is happening? Or people are, you know, best intentions. But I yeah, I totally agree. I mean, you don't want to open yourself up to the type of situation where HR calls your old principal, your old boss and says, okay, so so and so it was an instructional designer at your school. I mean, it's just it's not worth going down that road. And it's, it's not honest. It's not what your job title was. You know, I wouldn't trade my teaching experience for anything like the skills that I honed as a teacher. Were so instrumental to my success as an instructional designer now. So it's certainly like so I would never want to hide that. That's part of my like my career path. But my title In my last job was not instructional designer. I mean, I was a teacher. That's what I was. The skills that I had are so helpful in my role now. And I'm very grateful for them. But I was not instructional designer in that role.

Heidi Kirby:

Yeah, absolutely.

Elsbeth Seymour:

Well, and I think it's interesting too, because if you think about it in the school setting, like, as a special education teacher in California, I could not teach general education. I was specialized in only special education. And there's two different types of special ed in California. And I could only teach one type which was mild to moderate. So when we and we all have our, our personalities to like, I like high school, some people like elementary some and so you have these specializations. So it's weird to me to, to hear people that are like, Well, I'm an instructional designer. And like, just because maybe we're all in the same realm. Like I think I love the analogy of, you know, the babysitter and the teacher. I think I've said, Well, if you're an Olympic pull water polo player, yes, you play in the water, you have a bathing suit, you swim pretty well. But that is a completely different workout system outfit team. You can't just go and be like an Olympic swimmer, it's just not going to work. They're not going to pick you up just because you're an Olympic water polo player, like, Yes, still same water. There's some similarities, but still totally different. And I think that's the same thing in this space as well, is there are similarities, but it is a different job. It's not the same job. And it takes a lot of work to get there. And it and I would worry about the teacher that if they made it all the way through saying that their instructional designer, then they get into the job, and then they've got smears that are like, where's this? Where's my Gantt chart? How long is this going to take? You know, What materials do you need? You need an asset list? What program you know, and then they're like, overwhelmed.

Heidi Kirby:

And I which business objectives? Is this aligned with? And yeah, ROI on this? And yeah, like there's, there's a big learning curve. And to give credit, you don't have to upskill everything, before you're able to start getting into the entry level roles. But at least like you guys said, like, look at the job descriptions. See what keeps popping up that you're like, Man, I don't know if I could do that. You know, and three of the biggest questions that were telling for me, when I was interviewing potential candidates, were number one, what's your design process? That was a huge tell for people who did their homework or didn't? Because knowledge of instructional design models is huge? You know, you don't necessarily, could you argue that people have done instructional design without knowledge of models, of course, but do they make your life easier? Absolutely. Do you typically modify them and come up with your own thing that works depending on where you work? 100%. But you can't do that unless you have that foundational knowledge to work from. So that's a really successful question to kind of see what work people have done. And then the other question that I asked was, What is one thing that you recommend all new instructional designers need to know? Because that showed if they had done any sort of extra homework or research or you know, something like that? And if you get an answer, like learning styles or something like that, then you know that maybe, you know, the research hasn't been done. And I said, there were three questions. And I think I lied on accident. I think there were only because those are the only I did ask, like, what book they most recently read. But that's not really an indication of I mean, I guess it is if they're using books to upskill. But not necessarily could Yeah, they could just be a

Heidi Ranganathan:

read. It could be listening to podcasts or horses. Yeah.

Elsbeth Seymour:

I love that

Sarah Natalie:

question about the development process, though. Because to me, that's very telling of how somebody might fare in the project manager management aspect of the role. I mean, as an instructional designer, like you are, like we said before, you are often the expert on learning, working with a team of people who don't really know about learning. And so you need to be very clear about what what your process will be upfront at the kickoff of a project. And whether you're using Addy Sam or something that kind of works for you. You need to be very intentional about communicating your process to the stakeholders and then checking in with them throughout the process. That's definitely not something I did as a teacher. And so that's something I would highly recommend anybody who's looking to get into instructional design, really think hard about what that would look like for them. Yeah,

Elsbeth Seymour:

yeah. The last two places I've been at being new. I thought that I would be you know, mentored and there would be help. And it's kind of been the The opposite where I'm the SMI, almost four processes, and I'm helping build processes in our departments. And if I hadn't taken Tim sleds Academy, read a bunch of books have a master's program that I'm working through right now. I mean, I would be completely 100% lost, and I probably would have quit on my own regard because it would have just been so overwhelming. And, and that's definitely part of it too. Like, you have to be ready for, for anything to just be the lonely man on the island, because you can ask about teams, but usually, especially in the remote setting, it's very remote.

Heidi Kirby:

True, true. And just because there's a team doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to have time to take you under their wing or that they're going to have time to teach you what you're missing or what you need to know. Like, I've worked with other instructional designers that definitely did not have time to answer all my questions, because they were super busy. So yeah, I think it's, I think there's a lot to consider and think about, and it's definitely not as simple as Okay, Google, tell me what I should do, because I've got to get out of the classroom. Right.

Sarah Natalie:

Yeah. And I think a lot of teachers are feeling that way right now. Which, like, I get it, I totally, don't blame them. Yeah, yeah. Like I was there a year ago. And actually, my partner is a teacher. So like, I'm still full, I still have a foot in that world. But I just think like with any career pivot, it just, it's going to be easier for you if you're super intentional about what you want. Yeah,

Heidi Kirby:

absolutely. Okay, so my last question for you is the same one that I asked all my guests and I'll ask you each separately, it's okay. If some of you have the same answers. But what is one resource book podcast, LinkedIn learning chorus, whatever, that you would recommend for people who want to make the career pivot.

Elsbeth Seymour:

There's so many, it's hard to choose

Sarah Natalie:

the first one that comes to me and I don't, gosh, now, I'm gonna sound uninformed here because I don't know if she's making new episodes or not. But for me, Nyla spooners podcast, I'm new here. extremely helpful like to, like when we talk about being intentional in your career pivot, like, that was extremely helpful for me to really think through every step of the process, like, what is like my elevator pitch? And then when you unpack that, it's like, Well, okay, so what is what are my core beliefs? What is it that I believe in? And how does that shape me like as a job applicant, so that to me, like those, and if you haven't listened like they're really nice, bite sized 10 to 15 minute episodes, I for sure, listen to her first season. And now I cannot remember if she did a second season. But that was extremely helpful for me

Heidi Kirby:

say that there isn't newer episodes, but the ones that exist are so worth it to go ahead. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I went through them, even though I was already in instructional design. And I was kind of mad that they didn't exist sooner. Because though, it would have been super helpful. But yeah, I mean, that's, yeah, the last episode was in August, and then before that, it was August of 2020. But they are still worth going back and all linked totally, for sure. Did that give you guys enough time to think? Yes.

Elsbeth Seymour:

I took a course over the summer on scenario based elearning. And that seems to kind of pique anytime I talk about it, especially in a hiring or interview setting, pique ears, and a lot of places are kind of moving towards that. Yeah. And so I've read a scenario based e learning by Ruth Clark and Ruth Clark is amazing. All of her books are on Learning Designer just great. But that one really just it just kind of made ever made so much sense. And it led you through the whole process and gave you lots of resources of what you can do in your courses. And yeah, it was just very helpful. So I would definitely recommend that one. That one was a game changer for me. Great one. Love it nice.

Heidi Ranganathan:

For me, I would say it's not just one resource. I feel oftentimes, teachers are like, what's the one book that I need to read? That's gonna give me all the answers or tell me what's the one course like I'm a hard worker, I'm going to take that course. And once I get to the end of the course, it's a yellow brick road to get me there. And it's not just one thing that's going to make you an instructional designer, just like there's not one thing that makes you a human or one thing that makes you a teacher. And so with that I'd really say like step into your power. and take action. And use yourself as a resource. One of the best learning opportunities that I had was connecting with others on LinkedIn, what kind of jobs did they have, but and send them a personalized request. But then I would ask them specific questions because people are busy, just like you're busy as a teacher. And if somebody was gonna come up to you and just be like, what do you do as a teacher? They're like, Where do I even start? I do all this before 810 in the morning. So the same thing like ask specific questions, what does a day in the life look like? What would your design process be like? Have you read any books recently, and that's just going to open your eyes and mind to anything great. But one book that I did read that was really great. It's called graphics for learning. And it's by lions and Clerk 2000. And the book what I really loved about it is it brought information on how to take words and create them into graphics or using different instructional design methodologies. And it gave the actual research behind it. Because I feel like right now, there's a lot of blog posts or YouTube's out of it, and as people's interpretations of original sources, were it sure specifically, I liked how it originally referenced that original source knife.

Heidi Kirby:

I like it. Well, thank you all so much for being here today and for helping future instructional designers. I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much. Thank you, Heidi. Thanks again for joining me on the blog. If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with friends and review us on your favorite podcast platform. I hope you'll tune in again soon.