ELEVATED: Preview Show with Kaaren Hall & Matt MacFarland #877

This week we have guest host Joey Romero, SVP of The Norris Group giving you a second taste of what we will be doing at Elevated on June 8th at the Riverside Convention Center in Riverside Ca.  Tune in as Joey interviews Kaaren Hall of uDirect IRA Services and Matt MacFarland of Keystone CPA.

In an effort to continue the educational legacy of The Norris Group we are proud to present our first Educational Seminar of 2024.  ELEVATED is a day of education designed to help real estate investors “elevate” your market knowledge, “elevate” your investor toolbox, and “elevate” your tax strategies.

ELEVATED in an opportunity for real estate investors to learn wealth building tactics from our industry experts.  Join us LIVE in Riverside this June and ELEVATE!

ELEVATED- Tax Strategies, Wealth Building Tactics and Market Update/Forecast - June 8

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In this episode:

• Retirement planning, tax benefits, and IRA investments.
• Common mistakes investors make.
• Tax planning and preparation
• Potential changes in taxes and self directed IRAs in 2024

The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669.  For more information on hard money lending, go www.thenorrisgroup.com and click the Hard Money tab.


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Narrator: 0:01

Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a show committed to bringing you insights from thought leaders shaping the real estate industry. In each episode, we'll dive into conversations with industry experts and local insiders, all aimed at helping you thrive in an ever-changing real estate market. continuing the legacy that Bruce Norris created, sharing valuable knowledge, and empowering you on your real estate journey. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a newcomer, this is your go-to source for insider tips, market trends and success strategies. Here's your host, Craig Evans.

Joey Romero: 0:46

All right, welcome to the show everybody. I am clearly not Craig Evans, and, or Bruce Norris. Sorry to disappoint everybody. I am Joey Romero. I'm the Senior Vice President of Operations for The Norris Group. And today I will be your humble guest host. Today we are joined by two longtime friends of The Norris Group. Kaaren Hall, CEO of uDirect IRA Services and Matt MacFarland, Managing Director of Keystone CPA. How're you doing, guys?

Kaaren Hall: 1:15

Doing great.

Matt MacFarland: 1:17

Good. Joey, thanks for having us, appreciate it.

Joey Romero: 1:19

Well, we wanted to tease a little more, last week, we, you know, we had Bruce on the show, talking about what he's going to present, you know, market update, and, you know, the state of the economy right now, interest rates, the Fed everything. But today, I wanted to focus on our other partners that are going to be there on June 8th, June th is going to be not a full day event. But it's going to be a very fast moving hard hitting, you know, hour of tax advice, hour of can I say tax advice Matt? Or is it tax education?

Matt MacFarland: 1:54

You can say whatever you want. You're Bruce Norris today.

Joey Romero: 1:58

Tax investor education, we're going to learn the importance and why you should have a self directed IRA. And then Bruce is going to give us a, you know, market update, you know, what he sees for the rest of the year, and what he sees for 2025, as well as our new CEO, Craig Evans will be telling everybody what The Norris Group is going to be doing in the immediate future. And what we see for the long term vision of The Norris Group. So I won't say everything now. Because I don't want to give away the whole candy store right now. But so let's jump right into it, guys. This question is for both of you, I think. Does it matter that it's June, when this one is a good time to plan your taxes and your IRA? Self directed IRA? Either one, whoever wants to go first?

Kaaren Hall: 2:49

Yeah, take it, Matt.

Matt MacFarland: 2:52

No, I mean, there's it doesn't matter this June. I mean, June is different from perspective of doing tax planning. Like, the sooner you get started, the better, right, I think one, that's a big mistake a lot of people make is that they think that tax planning happens in March or April, when you sit down with your CPA and give them your tax documents for the previous year. But as we all know, you know, kind of, best tax planning is kind of doing proactive planning ahead of time is leading up to whatever you got going on, what are you trying to accomplish and your goals and your planning and, you know, June is better than doing it in December. But you know, January is better than doing it in June, right? So anytime it's good to get started, just you know, get that ball rolling and kind of start planning ahead.

Kaaren Hall: 3:35

With self directed IRAs. I mean, it's the same thing. You've got to start planning your retirement, the minute you think about it, I mean, you could be a kid, not even 18 and start planning the retirement. So, it's never too early or too late. I think right now, we've just passed the contribution deadline. So the contribution deadline, for a lot of accounts was April 15. And for steps were coming up to the tax filing date, all the way possibly up until October 15, depending on when you file your taxes. So we still have, you still have time to plan for that if you're if you're using a SEP IRA, but it's always a good time to apply for retirement.

Joey Romero: 4:13

Matt think this was more for you. How prepared do folks come when they first come to you? I'm not talking about the next year, you know, a client that you've already seen, somebody who's brand new, like, are they blown away about from like, the standpoint of they're not even close to having everything that they possibly can need to really truly plan?

Matt MacFarland: 4:34

Yeah, it's people, you know, people come to us for the first time to kind of work with us and work on doing tax planning. I think it is, to your point, I think it's a little eye opening to some people for sure. Because they've never, just some people they never even thought about things in this way, right. Like we're trying to look at things holistically like, yes, we're going to talk about tax planning, but we are going to talk about retirement accounts. We're going to talk about, you know, what are you looking to do from your investments, you know, we're not investment advisors per se, but we want to understand the whole picture, right? To be able to give you good sound advice. I need to know kind of what all these areas of business investing real estate, you know, where your income sources, all that kind of stuff. And I think conceptually, people get that, but again, they haven't sometimes they haven't thought of it in some of that regard before. So it's like, oh, yeah, no one's ever asked me that question before, you know, so. But yeah, it can it can be it can obviously, it can be a great, good learning experience for everybody.

Joey Romero: 5:29

Yeah, and the question for Kaaren here, what, why is it self directed different than most investment vehicles, and what's the biggest advantage that it brings to investors?

Kaaren Hall: 5:43

Wow, a self directed IRA is, well, it's different because it's a non market, correlated asset kind of a vehicle. It's not about the stock market, you know, it's about alternative assets, real estate, private equity, it's about precious metals, performing non performing debt. I mean, it just really opens the door to a different variety of investing, and just so many different kinds of assets. And, you know, it's good for real estate too, because, you know, if you've got a piece of real estate in your self directed IRA, and you've got it for a while, and you decide to sell it, you don't recapture depreciation. So that's, that's not too bad. And that's kind of a bite for people that invest personally. So self directed, IRAs can be great for all these alternative investments.

Joey Romero: 6:26

So to piggyback on what Matt was saying earlier about the preparation, like the first thing we say is, did you talk to your CPA? So do you advise that they go to their CPA before they see you so that they have a better like, Matt was saying more of a holistic view of their overall investment strategy?

Kaaren Hall: 6:45

Right. Yes, it's really important for people to have that, yeah, a holistic view of what they want to do and have a real plan. I mean, it's called retirement planning. And you need to have an overall view. And yes, we always say, you know, discuss it with your financial advisor, because people are going to invest in stock market assets. And so they, you know, they need to look at the whole picture. And it's not just, you know, stocks, bonds, and mutual funds and alternative assets, I mean, throw in life insurance, and throw in annuities, it's even Social Security, it's so many different layers of for retirement savings. So we definitely recommend that someone have a plan, and discuss it with their professionals, especially their CPA, you know, because their CPA is going to be the one who deducts things from their taxes or writes things off, and so forth. So, you know, your tax person has to be involved in your retirement plan, so they know what you're doing. And so you can actually get the tax benefits.

Joey Romero: 7:40

I want to talk about crypto, just you want to go down that route?

Kaaren Hall: 7:46

We could go with whatever you want.

Joey Romero: 7:49

This was for the both of you. Can you touch on what the biggest change you've seen in your industry this year?

Matt MacFarland: 7:59

Yeah, I was thinking I say about that. I think from our industry, the biggest thing that we've seen is, is really actually an uptick in kind of government enforcement audits, if you will. You know, I know the Inflation Reduction Act that came out, I think two years ago, now, they kind of, you know, they earmarked about $80 billion to the IRS for them to use in various various sources. And one of them was to hire more agents, one of them to modernize their systems, we're kind of seeing that come to fruition a little bit. Now, that doesn't mean be afraid of IRS audits, it just means to, you know, to do the right things to plan ahead, right, have all your ducks in a row so that, you know, you are taking advantage of all the legal tax incentives that are out there that the government wants to take advantage of, but have all your documentation and support in place so that if you do get audited 2,3,4 years down the road, it's going to be as painless as possible, right. So, but we definitely have seen that on the on the uptake in the last six to 12 months, for sure.

Joey Romero: 8:55

On June 8, we'll, we'll we'll be learning about some certain tools that they or maybe things that they need to be looking at so that maybe they don't fall in the audit pile?

Matt MacFarland: 9:07

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think we're definitely gonna talk about that, because I think with the pending changes, you know, coming up with possible elections and all that stuff, it's all kind of interrelated, right? I mean, it's, so we're definitely gonna, we can definitely talk about that and answer people's questions about kind of what are the best practices to, you know, documentation, retention, planning ahead, you know, you know, getting everything in order so that you can, you know, minimize your audit risk as much as possible.

Joey Romero: 9:35

Kaaren, what's the biggest change you've seen in your industry?

Kaaren Hall: 9:38

Yeah, a couple of changes in 2024. One is that you can take a 529 savings plan, which is a state based plan, and if it's 15 years old or older, so say, you know, your kids maybe had it, they didn't use it for college or there's some leftover, they can actually roll that over into a Roth. So that's something new for this year, also this year in 2024, six new exceptions. to the, to the being able to guess, withdrawal plan, so you can take the money out without a penalty. So penalty exceptions that were called 60 penalty exceptions, adding on to a list of already seven. So it's a lot of penalty exceptions now. But the really the biggest change, it really happened at the end of 2022, and has yet to totally come to fruition. It's kind of frustrating. I'm waiting for this to happen. But that is that the Roth IRA, I mean, sorry, the SEP IRA and the simple IRA can have Roth contributions, you know, contributions where you already paid the tax on them. But the IRS Department of Labor has yet to come up with guidelines. And I was in Washington, DC at the beginning of May, literally talking to the IRS, they were on a panel, and they are trying to come up with guidelines. But it's been what a solid year and a half. And we don't have guidelines on that yet. So it's really difficult to know how to implement but just know that that's on the horizon. And with the SEP contribution going all the way up to a cap of $69,000. Imagine all that money being a Roth money, so it grows tax free for life. I mean, that is on the horizon.

Joey Romero: 11:07

Has anything really surprised you guys in 2024?

Matt MacFarland: 11:12

I mean, from my perspective, I think the thing that surprised me the most is kind of good and bad, how you look at it right is like the lack of tax changes over the last few years. So you know, all political commentary aside leading up to Biden's election in 2020, he had big proposals in terms of changing tax rates change, getting rid of 1031 exchanges, talked about it off and on for the last few years. It's back in his proposal again. But there was something beginning here that kind of piggyback on that with a bonus depreciation, they had this law that came out and said, 'Hey, we're gonna bring back bonus depreciation, make it retroactive, the beginning of 2023.' This came out, you know, talking about this after tax season started, right? That's okay. So this got through the first, you know, the first hurdle the and everyone approved is okay, this looks like it's gonna be fast tracked, and then it's slammed to a slam to hold. And it's like, at this point in time, everything I read is like, it's not going to probably pass prior to the election, because, you know, one side of the aisle doesn't want to give the win for the other side of the aisle and all that stuff. And so that's the biggest change that I've seen is like nothing's actually happened. That's the biggest surprise to me is like that didn't get passed really quickly, and that there hasn't been more action on tax changes, but not to say that that's not going to happen in future because I think that's coming down the pipeline, for sure.

Kaaren Hall: 12:32

Yeah, and in self directed IRA space, you know, it's funny, it's like the opposite. I'm surprised there's so many changes, self directed IRAs, and retirement is a is an area that the government largely leaves alone, because, of course, it offsets the need for social security. I mean, you know, people are taking care of their own retirement. And so few changes. Most of the years, I've been in the in the 17 years, I've been in the industry, but yeah, lots of changes, now, like I mentioned, you know, before, again, with the 529, being able to rollover, Roth, new penalty, exemptions, and, you know, new considerations for Roth IRAs, just lots of different changes like that. So, that's, it's more than more than ever really?

Joey Romero: 13:13

Is it just rumors right now? Or what are you hearing that's coming down the pike, you know, for 2025? Do you expect, you know, serious changes or any changes at all in 2025?

Matt MacFarland: 13:24

I mean, from our side of it, I definitely do, because one of the things I think a lot of people don't understand is regardless of what happens in the election, like, even if you know, nothing changes in the government or changes. If they don't change any tax laws, the things are going to expire at the end of 2025. So top tax rates gonna go from 37 to 39.6%. They're going to, you know, cut the standard deduction and a half, we're gonna go away with a 25 20% of tax free income deduction that people have been using for the last seven, eight years. So that's it, nothing even happens, right. That's just based on how the how it's gonna go. But with pending elections and things, I'd be shocked if there wasn't some changes, whether good or bad coming, you know, depending on what happens to the elections, obviously.

Joey Romero: 14:14

You think they're going to be drastic?

Matt MacFarland: 14:16

I mean, I guess it depends, you know, it depends, right. If I think if Biden holds on to the presidency and can get his way with Congress, I think he's going to keep trying to pass these proposals to, you know, drastically changed the cap tax rate, I think the big change that he wants to do is tax people on capital gains over a million bucks, change it from 20% to 40%, basically. So that would be a huge change. Now, again, it hasn't happened last four years. So is it gonna happen if he if your, he remains in there but then, you know, if Trump, if Trump comes back, I think he's already talking about, you know, extending his tax cuts that he put into 2027 or 2017. So, I mean, it's almost like a you know, are you a betting man in which way gonna go, right?

Joey Romero: 15:01

How about you Kaaren, what do you see in 2025?

Kaaren Hall: 15:03

Yeah, I mean, the self directed IRA space in the retirement, the retirement space isn't a dramatic space. But I think the only thing I see coming up in 2025, that would be of note is that the catch up contribution might be indexed, instead of just being a flat$1,000. It might be indexed to inflation. So that's something we might be looking forward to.

Joey Romero: 15:26

What's, let me get into what's the big, Matt, what's the and then we'll get to Kaaren. What's the biggest mistake you've ever seen made by an investor?

Matt MacFarland: 15:36

How much time do we have? And where do we begi, right?

Joey Romero: 15:42

Well, you can look at it as the the biggest I gave somebody with the jail or the biggest man, it cost them a lot

Matt MacFarland: 15:47

Yeah, it's I think the, yeah, it's, we talked like either one. about this a lot. But I think the biggest mistake people make is just not, you know, not having good records. You know, just from the beginning, right. It's not even good records, not knowing what to deduct, not following the rules, not meeting with a good tax advisor. I think, you know, along those lines, it's, you know, thinking that I mentioned earlier, I thinking that your tax preparer is doing tax planning for you. I think that's probably the biggest mistake people assume is, hey, 'I'm meeting with my tax guy in March and April', and they don't realize or don't they forget that? You know, the average CPA is probably doing 500,000 returns a year working 16 hour days in March and April, you know, do you really think they're thinking about what do you, what's going to be best for you 12 months down the road, right. So that's why it's important to kind of do real tax planning, as opposed to kind of, you know, just thinking your tax planner doing it for you. So yeah, I would say that's probably the biggest mistake we see.

Joey Romero: 16:49

And that's a humongous difference is because tax preparation is just part of your overall tax planning that you guys do with folks, right?

Matt MacFarland: 16:58

Yeah, I mean, tax preparation, or you think about us, right? It's just, I mean, there's an art to it, obviously. But it's putting numbers on a form that for things that already happened last year, right? Real tax planning is talking about what do you guys want to accomplish going forward? And what are your goals? And, you know, are you building this business? Are you going to expand your real estate, or whatever it is, right? So it's definitely two different animals?

Joey Romero: 17:20

Kaaren what have you seen the big mistakes?

Kaaren Hall: 17:24

I think the biggest mistake I saw, was when we had this attorney, and he had a rental property and self directed IRA. And then he had the renters pay the rent to him personally, which is a big mistake, you know, you're not supposed to take personal possession. But then he also well, he said, 'Well, what's the problem? I claimed it on my on my income taxes.' So he filed it as income on his income taxes as well. So he just really, you know, that's something it's hard to unring that bell, you know, but I think well, another big mistake that we see is assets sponsors, paying the proceeds from assets to the account holder directly. So that's a big mistake. And, yeah, so those are two huge things is when the account holder receives the money, personally, that should not happen.

Joey Romero: 18:12

Now, what I like about what we've done in the past, you know, this is more of a condensed and expanded unit, there's going to be a condensed, yet expanded version of our old tactics with Brunches, right? So we're going to do instead of, you know, giving you guys 15 minutes each, and then, you know, everybody kind of talk at the end, we're gonna give everybody a full hour of, you know, Keystone CPA, uDirect the full hour of Bruce Norris, where that's so that's gonna be a little bit different. Now, what I love about you guys, as partners, is that you guys don't you guys aren't just CPAs you're not just, you know, the CEO of uDirect, you guys are also investors. So can you talk about why that's important, you know, running the business is a run, and actually being in the game having, skin in the game?

Matt MacFarland: 19:01

Yeah, that's a great, that's a great question. Because we, you know, I think we see that a lot, right? It's like, people come to us like, I don't, how do I find a good CPA that understands real estate, right? Like, you know, you can have there's a lot of CPAs out there that are probably will call them generalist, for lack of better term, right. And they, but I know we'll be the first to tell you like, I don't, you know, I can't help you if you have a retail clothing store, like I'm not the guy for you, because I last time I worked on a retail company was like 25 years ago or something, right? So I you know, it's just, you know, having somebody that can talk the same talk as you and understand what what you're going through and like, you know, understand your questions. You may not know all the right questions to ask, but like least when you're asking the question, we don't have that glazed look on her face and like I don't even understand what question you're asking, right? Like, because you'll get that a lot. I mean, you know, you're not gonna go to, I don't know you're not gonna go to a, you're gonna go to a specialist doctor to do surgery. You're right, you're not gonna go to your family doctor, right? So it's kind of same same philosophy, right? Is it? I think it just helps, being able to understand where you're coming from and have that conversation to kind of keep your move in the right direction.

Kaaren Hall: 20:13

Yeah, the same thing in the self directed IRA space, when we're real estate investors, we can more empathize with our, you know, with our customers, our account holders or, you know, clients. And so you know, that my background is in, well, real estate, I've had three real estate licenses and also mortgage lending, I spent about 16 years and loan origination and loan servicing. So understanding the note portion, but also I am a real estate investor and understanding a little bit, you know, I mean, not not Bruce level, not Bruce Norris level, you know, but understanding of some real estate markets and micro markets that I'm investing in, but just what's going on, and that it's crazy to see, for example, prices increase when rates increase, and what you know, why is that and so our account holders are facing those same situations. And so it's good to be able to empathize with the account holder.

Joey Romero: 21:03

So before we wrap up, can each of you guys, just tell folks, you know, what can they expect to, to learn on June 8, from your particular perspective?

Matt MacFarland: 21:18

Yeah, no, I mean, we're, again, we're excited to kind of be there, Amanda and I are both be there looking forward to it, as we have for last 15 years doing it with The Norris Group. So I mean, we're planning to kind of, you know, again, we'll talk about kind of what we're seeing in the marketplace right now, from a tax perspective with the audits and how to plan and minimize that risk. We're going to talk about kind of what strategies are working in the marketplace and whatever other clients are doing to take advantage of, you know, good tax planning, and then again, looking down the horizon, right is what, if this happens, what can you plan for? If this happens in the elections, what can you think is going to happen? And so I think it's gonna be a lot of good stuff. And I look forward to kind of, you know, helping people answer the questions, too.

Kaaren Hall: 22:04

Yeah, and when regarding self directed IRAs, I mean, next year will be the 50 year anniversary of the IRA, and, you know, ergo the self directed IRA. And so even even though it's been around 50 years, a lot of people don't understand a self directed IRA, really how it works. So we'll get into the basics. But for the advanced class, there's always, you know, there are always things like, you know, the Roth ladder is something that concepts someone has come up with, and we already know this, I'm sure Matt and Amanda, I've seen this many times a strategy for using Roth IRAs, to invest in, and we can talk about some, you know, we can talk about some strategy as well with self directed IRAs, but we'll have something for the beginner and something for the advanced.

Joey Romero: 22:43

Yeah, what's gonna be great, too, is that, you know, there's only there's going to be the three partners. And so we're going to have some pretty significant breaks in between, you know, half an hour at a time where they're going to be able to visit your table, you know, get information. I was under the understanding that Keystone couldn't take any more, you know, clients, but that's not the case, Matt, like, so if somebody's looking for a CPA? How do they find you guys?

Matt MacFarland: 23:10

Yeah know, best place to find us is our website, keystonecpa.com. We have a lot of good information on there. We are taking on clients for tax planning and tax returns going forward and things like that. So yeah, we're excited to work with real estate investors. That's kind of, that's what our bread and butter is. So yeah, look forward to being there on the eighth.

Joey Romero: 23:32

Kaaren.

Kaaren Hall: 23:33

Yeah. Well, the best way to get ahold of us is info@udirectIRA.com. I mean, all your questions, all questions answered, you know, and our website has a really robust blog, with answers to a lot of self directed IRA questions. How do I do this? How do I do that? There's so many different variables, RMDs, you know, what do I do it with a Roth? What do I do? You know, what's a simple IRA? How does it work? And any question you have for self directed IRAs, we probably have a blog article on it. So just our website is really the best source.

Joey Romero: 24:07

That's the one thing that I've noticed, like recently, you know, I don't know, maybe, maybe I'm just, you know, one of those, like, where you say, Oh, I've never seen one of those cars, then all of a sudden, you see a bunch of...

Kaaren Hall: 24:17

Selective attention, Yeah.

Joey Romero: 24:18

Yes. I've seen you guys out and about way more this year. Like, I see Amanda, just like on all kinds of podcasts. I see, you know, all kinds of clubs, you know, and Kaaren, one of the things that Craig told me was like, 'Man, she's really active on LinkedIn'. So yeah, she's all over the country. She's always posting stuff. So it's really great to see you guys doing all that. So one of the last things I want to talk about is the giveaways that we're doing this year, you know, The Norris Group is going to be giving up some VIP subscriptions, two tickets to I Survived Real Estate which we are doing October 25. And we are going to give away for the first time a lifetime VIP subscription to somebody in attendance. Okay, now, both of you had been very gracious in giving away something too. Kaaren, I understand that for attendees only.

Kaaren Hall: 25:13

Yes.

Joey Romero: 25:14

We're gonna waive the setup fee for any brand new IRA account, right?

Kaaren Hall: 25:19

That's right, yeah, we'll waive the $50 setup fee for anybody who wants to start a self directed IRA. And we also give a free 20 minute consultation anyway. But we will waive the setup fee for the attendees for ELEVATED.

Joey Romero: 25:31

Nice. And Keystone CPA is actually going to give away, what does it call the? Matt, what do you guys call it?

Matt MacFarland: 25:42

Yeah, I was trying to remember because I know I think Amanda has shared it with you. But I think it's giving away one of our strategic tax planning...

Joey Romero: 25:49

Yes, that's exactly it.

Matt MacFarland: 25:51

Consultation. So it's not it's a, it's usually a two meeting thing where I meet with one of our advisors, and we kind of dig deep in what you got going on help you come up with that strategy and things like that. So yeah, we use, I think that's, we usually charge about$5,000. for that. So yeah, I think we're gonna be given that away to 1 free to one of the attendees at the even, so.

Joey Romero: 26:12

That's a very, very gracious of you guys. And Kaaren, just because it isn't, you know, if we get, you know, 100 people, you ready the$5,000... that you give away.

Kaaren Hall: 26:24

I hope to do that.

Joey Romero: 26:26

So the goal is, you know, what Craig wants to do, and I won't, you know, that was too much, because Craig wants to continue the legacy of what The Norris Group has been for the last, you know, 27 years. And that's, you know, a resource for what we used to call it, you know, not mom and pop. But, you know, Aaron used to have this great saying, you know, for Main Street, not Wall Street, you know, so our Main Street investment investor clients that follow us in a follow up, Bruce forever, we want to continue being that resource. And so one of the things we want to do is build it like an Investor Toolbox, and give them a wide variety of resources and strategies that they can use, because not everything is going to work for everybody, you know, you might be really good face to face, you know, you might not, you might be an introvert, but you still, you know, see the value of real estate. So maybe, you know, mail campaign is better for you. So we're going to be building that in the future. We'll be talking a lot more about that on June 8. Guys, I really appreciate you guys jumping on very short notice. I'm really looking forward to hanging out with you guys. Hopefully, you guys can stick around on June 8. And you know, we'll all go to dinner. And maybe we'll just tell everybody that we all hang out afterwards. You know, there's a lot of great places right there in Downtown Riverside. So I really appreciate you thank you so much for being on tonight, today. And if you need anything, you always know where to find me.

Kaaren Hall: 27:58

Thanks, Joey.

Matt MacFarland: 28:00

Thanks again for having us.

Joey Romero: 28:02

All right. Thanks, everybody.

Narrator: 28:03

For more information on hard money loans, trust deed investing, and upcoming events with The Norris group. Check out thenorrisgroup.com. For more information on passive investing through the DBL Capital Real Estate Investment Fund, please visit dblapital.com.

Joey Romero: 28:23

The Norris group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE license 01219911. Florida mortgage lender license 1577 and NMLS license 1623669. For more information on hard money lending go to thenorrisgroup.com and click the hard money tab.