The Norris Group Real Estate Podcast

Property Data, AI, and the Future of Real Estate Tech with Seann O'Toole | Part 1 #890

• The Norris Group, Craig Evans

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Sean O’Toole is CEO & Founder of PropertyRadar, the property data and owner information platform real estate pros have trusted since 2007 to drive billions in deals directly.

Sensing another change in the market in 2005, Sean sold all his real estate investments and set out to build his “dream application” and satisfy his desire for better data and easy-to-use software to find, analyze, and manage deals.

Sean launched ForeclosureRadar in early 2007 to a market that had no idea what was coming. The credit bubble burst shortly thereafter landing Sean on 60 Minutes in January 2008. Host Steve Kroft concluded in the interview that “to get a real overview (of the market), you need to look at a map from Sean O’Toole’s web site, foreclosureradar.com.”

 In 2013, Sean relaunched ForeclosureRadar as PropertyRadar.

Today, PropertyRadar remains the go-to platform for smart real estate, mortgage, and title professionals, but now also serves a broader base of residential and commercial property focused businesses intent on leveraging comprehensive property data and owner information to grow their business directly.


In this episode:

  • Craig introduces Sean O'Toole, CEO of PropertyRadar.
  • How coding and tech shaped Sean O'Toole’s career.
  • Challenges in the property data industry and Sean’s insights.
  • PropertyRadar: A top platform for real estate investors and Realtors®.
  • AI integration and innovation at PropertyRadar.
  • Teaching students the importance of AI prompts and tools.
  • Sean O'Toole’s vision for PropertyRadar’s future.



I Suvived Real Estate is on October 25, 2024

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The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669.  For more information on hard money lending, go www.thenorrisgroup.com and click the Hard Money tab.


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Narrator:

Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a show committed to bringing you insights from thought leaders shaping the real estate industry. In each episode, we'll dive into conversations with industry experts and local insiders, all aimed at helping you thrive in an ever-changing real estate market. continuing the legacy that Bruce Norris created, sharing valuable knowledge, and empowering you on your real estate journey. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a newcomer, this is your go-to source for insider tips, market trends and success strategies. Here's your host, Craig Evans.The Norris Group, proudly presents, I Survived Real Estate. industry experts discuss evolving industry trends, real estate bubbles, inflation, and opportunities emerging for real estate professionals. We want to thank our Platinum partners. uDirect IRA Services, San Diego Creative Investors Association, White Feather Investments, MVT Productions, Inland Empire Real Estate Investment Club, and Realty 411 Magazine. See, isurvivedrealestate.com for event details, information on all our generous sponsors and to connect with our speakers.

Craig Evans:

Hey everybody. We're so excited today. We have got a great show today, a good friend of The Norris Group, and someone that I've come to know over the last few years, and really admire Sean O'Toole is with us. Sean O'Toole is a CEO and founder of PropertyRadar, the property data and owner information platform real estate pros have trusted since 2007 to do billions of dollars in deals. Sean got his start with data in Silicon Valley during the dot-com boom, after the dot-.com bubble, kind of busted, Sean flipped properties for five years with data, informed insights he got right out before the housing bubble burst. Sean launched ForeclosureRadar in the early 2007 before anyone had heard of the foreclosure crisis. In 2013 he relaunched ForeclosureRadar as PropertyRadar, a greatly expanded property data and owner information platform serving a broad audience of real estate professionals and property centric businesses today, PropertyRadar remains the go to platform for Data Driven Real Estate Professionals intent on leveraging comprehensive property data and owner information to grow their business directly. Sean, I hope I got that right, because that's a mouthful. You're on the healing. Man, listen, it is so good to see you again. It's what I guess we're like a week shy of almost a year since we've seen each other. I know that it is exactly on your birthday, and so I'm sad that you aren't going to be on the panel this year, because Sean, you know, the bottom line is, you are always a crowd favorite, and you're a dear friend of The Norris Group.

Sean O'Toole:

It's such a great it's such a great event. It's so great to see you know, all those familiar faces, and I'm not going to the local clubs as much anymore, and you guys have such a great turnout by all the great clubs around the state. And so it's all it's also great to see all those people as well. It's a really great event. And I'm sorry I'm missing it.

Craig Evans:

Yeah, it's going to be good this year. So we're excited. You know, obviously it's my first year as the host, so it's going to be interesting of being a panelist for the last several years and being interviewed by Bruce to now being interviewing Bruce. So it's going to be a fun switch.

Sean O'Toole:

We'll see how that goes. He may turn the tables on you.

Craig Evans:

Exactly. Hey, well, listen, so you know, we're coming up to the time of I Survived and this podcast, Joey and I'd kind of plan things really working on this, knowing you weren't going to be to be there. So this will be the last, you know, show or so, coming up to the event for I Survived Real Estate. So what I want to do, listen, you know, the people that listen to us, they know you, they know a lot about you, so, but we're kind of doing things a little different. So there's a few things I want to dive in about you. Who you are, you know, we want to pull the curtain back and who's Sean O'Toole, right? So, but with that, really, I want to get back into what people listen to us about real estate, and then for your situation, you know, what's going on with PropertyRadar and but one of the things that I found interesting, and I remember last year, you know, we were writing back from the event, and you were telling me about your dad and your son and some things that happened, where your dad gave you an Apple II, at 10 years old, and then, at. 10 years old, you gave your son a 3D printer and all the fun he was having with it, stuff like that. So, you know, I'm a dad. I got two girls. My question to you is, what would you encourage your son to give his son or daughter at 10 years old?

Sean O'Toole:

Yeah, so right now, at this moment in time, right? And it's, it's such a big question, and a lot of the things that applied to with my son, with the 3D-printer, right? Like, so, I guess just one, you know, obviously getting that computer when I was 10. I'm a two time college dropout. All of my opportunity has come from learning how to code when I was little. And I've had a lot of opportunity. I had a lot of opportunity in Silicon Valley, even flipping houses, you know, when I wasn't writing software for anyone else, I wrote software for myself that made me more efficient, more competitive than the other people you know, that I was out there up against. And so it's just given me nothing but opportunities and to have the money to flip 160 houses, you know, came from that as well, all from that one one thing. And, so as I thought about my son, and I think this is all largely true today, with one exception, you know, it was like, what, what skill set is going to be important? And I don't know if you just saw the musk, you know, iRobot, you know, thing, event, you know, he's talking about us all having a personal robots at home doing the dishes and stuff like. So, you know, I was already of that mindset, and was like, we're gonna need fewer humans to work. And the other thing that I think, like, if you think about software, ultimately, software has taken over tasks that used to be done by people, you know, it's just reading a book about, you know, the early creation of like airplanes and even like the atomic bomb and that kind of stuff. And most of these calculations were all done by hand, and they literally had rooms of people doing this communication, you know, these calculations by hand, which can now be done on your MacBook, right? And you know, so like, what's going to change here over time? And I think we're going to continue to see technology displace people, and in that the people that create those technologies, you know, if you create a piece of technology that replaces 10 people, well, you're not going to charge nothing for it. You're going to charge something for it. It's going to be a percentage of that. So the more prolific your piece of technology is, the greater impact on that productivity, is a nice way of saying it versus displacing people, the more rewards you get. And we've seen that right, that you know, Bill Gates, Larry, Ellison, Elon Musk, etc, like at the end of the day, their incredible wealth has come from the advancement of technology, and the advancement of technology comes to displacement of people. So you want to be on the right side of that trade. Um, so I'm going a little deeper here, but it's important. I think background.

Craig Evans:

That's why you're always a fan favorite.

Sean O'Toole:

And, you know, so then the other thing you know is the pendulum is always swinging right? And we're swinging from globalism back to, you know, nationalism. And I would rather, I think bigger picture, better for everyone in the long run, is the swing to globalism, but it has its downsides, and I understand why people want to swing back to nationalism. And in that, though, right, we can't do that like to make a TV in the US today is going to probably cost three or $4,000 right? We talk about slapping 60% tariffs on China, and it sounds great,China's scary, like there's reasons to want to do that, but we're paying that 60% you want to talk about something inflationary. There's nothing more inflationary than that concept and but that's where you swing when you swing nationalism. And so the only way we kind of can do that and survive, right, is if we continue this technology curve, right? The the computer I have on my desk for whatever it was$2,000 is more computing horsepower than there was in the entire world in probably 1960, right? And at at billions of of cost in in today's dollars, right? So that's how you can can help, is through automation. And I really felt like 3d printing and those types of technologies were on the right path of how we can actually bring manufacturing back to the US, because it's not our kids aren't going to sit in sweatshops and, you know, solder components and assemble little things for, you know, 18 hours a day. They're not going to do that. That's not coming back to the US. And to the degree it did come back to the US, it would be at 10x the cost, and we'd have inflation like you'd never seen. So I don't think we have any sign of leadership anywhere in the political spectrum for how we actually make that transition. You know, we did have the CHIPS Act, which at least starts bringing some of the chip manufacturing back to the US, which I think's a good step bipartisan and, you know, so, you know, little bit of trend that way. So that's, the big thesis right under which I chose a 3D printer. Now, the next step we have right now is large language models, right? And so you think about the education it takes. It's not like, you know, okay, you can give your kid chat GPT, but they're just a user. The amazing thing about the Apple II back in 1978 when I got it right, was it was still very much a do it yourself. You had to really understand the thing. And if you wanted to do anything advanced, like, you know, my dad came home. I was probably 12 years old. I had the cover off, and I was soldering inside, you know, this machine in 1977 was $4,000 like, so whatever, like, $40,000 like, you got a $40,000 piece of equipment at home today, $20,000 piece. And you come home and you're 12 year old, soldering on it, like you freaked out. My dad freaked out. And, you know, so it's but you kind of had to be that hands on. And 3D printing was that way. You know, when, when, 10 years ago, I got my son a 3D printer. I mean, they were a bear. These days, they're pretty easy. You can just buy one, download something from the internet, and print it, right? It doesn't require that care and feeding and work that it did even 10 years ago, but the the level of knowledge you need today to, like, build a large language model. Like, I don't know how you give that to your kid, so I think it's a really good question. Like, what you do for your kid today at 10? I think it's harder. My son's now just about to graduate mechanical engineering from Cal Poly. So it worked. He took that on. I think, you know, that will give him, and he's specifically in mechatronics, which is robotics, yep. So, you know, I think that'll give him the skills for like this, to have a pretty good career path and be ahead and be in the right spot. So it's really, that predicting, that where that next spot is today. It's certainly, you know, robotics, AI thinking about, you know, how we become more productive as a society, so that we can accomplish some of these goals. Well, that's the technology curve is still, is ramping is this going to get worse before it gets it's going to just get worse.

Craig Evans:

And everything we touch, you're right, I mean, and that's one of the things that you know. I wanted to, you know, I think we've only known each other, what I don't know two or three years now, and but, but what, as I was prepping for this to meet with you and stuff today, I started thinking about so many times through our conversations, it's gone back to what happened to us and what have we done for our kids? What, you know, it's come around to, what are we doing for our kids? What are we doing and not just our kids? I mean, I've got a, you know, obviously, I got two girls. I want to see them grow. You want to see your...

Sean O'Toole:

...next generation overall.

Craig Evans:

Yeah. But what do we do for that next generation, right? And, that's one of the things I was wanting to, kind of dive into that and just kind of, you know, work through that and open that up. But so let me ask you this. So, what's new with you? What's going on with Sean O'Toole?

Sean O'Toole:

Well, I think I'd already done this at last year's. I Survived event, but I hired a CEO for PropertyRadar, and I've I'm spending all my time now meeting with customers, consulting with customers and really working on our product vision.Large language models have changed the game a bit. And, you know, rethinking our entire product and product strategy and all of that with that in mind is where I spending a lot of my time. Large language models, chat, GPT, you know. Took me a little bit by surprise. I knew we'd get there, but just how good they were, how quickly, you know, yes, they hallucinate. Yes, you can get bad, whatever, but, you know, but they're surprisingly good for, you know, for the early iterations that we're still in, and they're advancing really quickly, and it takes a lot of thought to just stay ahead of that and focusing most of my time there right now.

Craig Evans:

You know, is your makeup to to create new companies, or to say, how do I make PropertyRadar bigger, better, maybe wider.

Sean O'Toole:

So, yeah, you know, right now it's hard to believe, you know, 17 years in almost 18, you know that I'm still so fully engaged in PropertyRadar, but I have a very big vision for that. And, you know, and there's just a lot to do. And, you know, I am slowly replacing my, I replace myself as CEO, replace myself as VP of engineering. I still have yet to replace myself as VP of Product Management, you know, and I don't see myself ever replacing myself as kind of visionary chairman, you know, there and we have a lot, a lot, lot stuff we want to do. And, you know, whether it's more data sets or new capabilities or things that just, I've got some stuff right now, I think it's going to blow people's minds. So, you know, lot of work there. But yeah, I have a lot of interests. And, boy, I thought a lot about our conversation and you having multiple companies. And, you know, I see Elon Musk with his multiple companies, and that's definitely, there's a lot of appeal to that to me. So I would love to get to that point. At some point, I do. I'm getting a little bit of that, of being able to flex that muscle by doing consulting for customers. You know, a lot of times, like one day, in person, no charge, you know, whatever, right? You know, it's somebody who really wants to advance, put systems in place, use our software to the next level, things like that, like that allows me to flex that entrepreneurial muscle, but on other people's behalfs, yeah? And then I do do some, you know, advisory work for other people's, you know, companies in exchange for stock or that kind of thing. So very, love those kinds of engagements, and so I do a little bit of that. But ultimately, yeah, I could see myself being Craig and having multiple companies and but with CEOs and teams.

Craig Evans:

Yeah, yeah. And I was, I remember I was telling Bruce one time, I guess I was almost surprised that, you know, with the way you think and the way your mind works. I was, I guess I was surprised that you didn't have a stack of six companies sitting out there that are all in different directions and obviously a lot of technology. I love to listen to you talk about technology and your mindset on that. And so...

Sean O'Toole:

I probably do have six companies I'm working on in my head at any given time. Just, yeah, the people side of it, and hiring the teams and all that is like, you know, I'm gonna wait till I really have time. Because I, you know, I'm definitely working more than full time.

Craig Evans:

Yeah. So, what do you think is the biggest change that PropertyRadar has made? The innovation a pivot and company direction that you've made in the last, in the most recent years, let's say.

Sean O'Toole:

I mean, we've had two major pivots, right? We started off in the foreclosure information business, and we really own that market on the West Coast. Like I would say, we as near 100% market share at the trustee sale auctions. You know, we were recommended by the California Association of Realtors for realtors for short sales like we just owned, dominated the West Coast, and I started to expand nationally, but then realized the foreclosure crisis was going to come to an end and put that on hold. You know, if you want to start a data company, which I probably won't do again, none of my ideas now are data company where I have to go out and source the data, because it sucks, like it's not a good business to be in. It. You know, if you do want to start a competitor to PropertyRadar just go do what all of our competitors do and go buy first American stuff and just resell it. What we do is so much harder and you know, but, you know, we've been doing it in the camp. Can't go back now. And it has a lot of benefits. So anyways, you

Craig Evans:

Right. know, if you're going to start a company like that, start in California, where there's only 50 counties out of 3142 yet it's probably 20 to 30% of the revenue, like I'd say 50% of a revenue for a property related company is California, Texas, Florida, right? I mean, it's half the revenue you're going to get nationally, right, those three states. So, you know, to start very focused. And you know, Texas is much, much smaller in terms of potential revenue than California, but it's 254 counties versus 52, yeah, 58 so, you know, like even there, like, it's much California's easiest place to start. So it's the right decision. It did allow some other competitors, though, to come along who just bought that first American data and resold it to be national and get to be pretty well known. So that might have been a mistake in hindsight. So we made the switch to property information still on the West Coast. And then, you know, the property information business sucks. Everybody's got a different use case. Some people are willing to pay a lot. Some people are willing, barely willing, to pay anything. If you're going to do it, you kind of need to do it the way, like a CoreLogic, or a First American or those kinds of companies deal with, like a data tree, a real quest, etc, where you'd nickel and dime people to death to hopefully get them to where they're paying 1000s of dollars a month, and you got a sales team that goes out and, you know, gets big accounts and things like that. And it's not the business I wanted to build. I wanted to build something more for smaller players, more accessible, flat fee. And it's tough in the property information business, we built a great product there. It's still a great product there. But in 2018 I realized our best customers were actually using us essentially for sales and marketing, right? So the investors were using us to find doors to go knock on people, to send direct mail to folks to call, right? And that was a big aha moment for me. And, you know, really pivoted the company that direction. So we started bringing in demographics data. We got nationwide, brought in a lot of the stuff that's super useful. You know, there's a big difference between a landlord over 75 years old and a landlord who's 30 years old, and now you can market to each of those independently. And that was, we were the first to do that, and it really kind of changed the game. We've got other people following us now there, but it was just a different way of thinking about these things. And so, you know, and then we've continued to add, you know, bankruptcies and liens and other data along that line, to give you this wider pool of folks to market to. You know, you're a realtor, somebody who's got an HOA lien, they freaking hate their neighbors right there. They're moving, or an investor, right? They are leaving that homeowners association. It's just went so, you know, those are great leads, but they're leads, right? It's less about property information, and it's more about finding that lead and going and making that connection. So that's been our focus. We've been building out our marketing tools with a dialer, with the direct mail marketing, with email marketing and like, what we're still not very good at, because I'm a product guy, I'm not a sales and marketing guy, is explaining to folks just how powerful and how differentiated those tools are, right? So our direct mail tool has all these abilities to, like, create templates. So let's say you're a franchise. You can create templates that are locked down, that have franchise level stuff that the agent can't change, right? But then the agent can have their brand level stuff, their headshot, their team name, their kind of thing, automatically fill that template right at the brand level. And then you can have order level variables. So you're doing a just listed card, you can put in the address and the price of the just listed house and the photos of the just listed house for that one order. And then there's the piece level variables that say Dear Sean, you know, at that level were the. Only company ever, like at any direct mail company, to have those three different levels and the ability to lock things down. Really?

Sean O'Toole:

Yeah, so a lob doesn't do that. No competitor does that. None of the the big, you know, any of the big mailing houses you go to, they'll have variables, but they're not separated into those three levels that can be used, you know, in three different ways. So, really powerful tool, online web editor, anyways, just a lot of thought goes into the things we do.

Craig Evans:

I mean, do you see AI starting to potentially play a role in what you do with PropertyRadar?

Sean O'Toole:

Yeah, I'll give you an example. So, you know, it's, we've built this really powerful tool, but because it's so powerful, it's harder to use than some of our competitors, or at least it comes across. You know, you have, we have 250 criteria. There's over a Google, which is G, O, O, G, O L, Google, it. It's a very large number, number of possible combinations within our criteria. One of our, I calculated this after a competitor brag they had 40,000 combinations. So compare the number 40,000 to a Google. It's a little different, right? We've got a lot. I think we're getting even closer to maybe 300 criteria now, because we keep adding stuff. But um, you know, it's really daunting as a new customer to wade through 300 criteria like and then there's industry terminology. So we talk about owner occupied, non owner occupied, which some people call absentee, and non owner absentee, right? So, or whatever, or owner occupied versus absentee. But there's different language around that. And then I can take that a little further and say second homes versus short term rentals versus the criteria we use underneath that is same mailing address as the side address is the way that's done in the industry, everybody does it or tax exemption. So like in California, you have a homeowner's tax exemption. Not all states have it, but a lot of states have a homeowner's tax exemption. So we use those two things to predict whether the property's owner occupied or non owner occupied, right? It's a likely thing. People think this is like, you know, we go knock on the door and is it? Is there an owner here? Is there a renter here? Like, nobody does that, right? We're all modeling data, and that's industry standard. Everybody does it the same way, but there's differences, right? And so if you're a user, and you come in and you say, Well, I want second homeowners in Tahoe over the age of 50, who've lived there for more than 15 years, but you've got to figure out, okay, live there for more than 15 years is purchase date before today minus 15, right? You got to figure all this stuff out, and it's really hard. So we used, and I've been working on natural language processing, which is kind of the precursor to large language models. I try to come up with a way to let people type in their queries and suggest the criteria. Well, large language models solve that for us. We have that now we have what we call our criteria bot. His name's Radar. Radar comes says, Hey, tell me what you're searching for today, when I knew this was going to be great, is I put in a query, and it came back and it suggested a criteria that I hadn't thought of for that that was dead on the money. So second homeowner, right? I would say non owner occupied equals true, right? There's no owner there, or owner occupied equals false, depending on how you want to say it, right?

Craig Evans:

Right.

Sean O'Toole:

And but it came in, and we also have another field called, how many properties does the owner own? Right? Multiple properties owned? And it said two plus, right? Because if they're a second homeowner, they technically have to own another home.

Craig Evans:

Right.

Sean O'Toole:

I may not, may or may not want that, but that it suggested it, and I never, even, never even occurred to me. I knew we were onto something really good.

Craig Evans:

It's interesting. You know, so I was at an event last month in Vegas for about a week, and we spent probably half a day at this event talking about, you know, AI and larger language on its effects on Google's search algorithms and SEO as kind of as a whole, right? And we're talking about how, you know, AIis really learning the search algorithms much faster than anybody thought, and that people are also beginning to use the AI to actually create all of their SEO. So, you've got the SEO being created by the. AI that is also reading the algorithms and knowing the best way to create search data well, that kind of hold that AI can have on the data. Do you believe that there's any part of society that won't be affected by AI?

Sean O'Toole:

Hopefully, what you do in your bedroom like hopefully there's parts I'm hoping, that's probably optimistic. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's going to be pretty pervasive. And you know, that is the one thing you know I tell my son, and I think it's a mistake our schools are doing. Our schools are putting in tools to catch the use of chat GPT, you know. But I think we're kind of teaching the wrong thing right, because, it's going to be a lot less about your ability to write, you know, than it is going to be about your ability to prompt. And, you know, I think, you know, put me in charge of a school district, and I'm introducing curriculum on how to write prompts, right? And I'm thinking about K-12, the advancement of how to write prompts and find answers to things and how to learn and just how to be curious, right? Those are the skills that are going to keep you ahead of the game right at the end of the day. So, you know, instead, our schools are punishing kids for using these tools instead of teaching them how to use them. And I think, at the end of the day, that's giving them the wrong skill set to survive as we move forward. And, you know? And that's long been the case. You know, I remember having to type a report and use a typewriter and use it. I had a computer at home, like, let me use the computer and but I could go back and I could edit and change, whereas, in the typewriter, you made a mistake. I had a teacher that if you made a mistake on the page, you retyped the whole page. But that wasn't the point of that class. Wasn't a typing class, right.

Craig Evans:

Right.

Sean O'Toole:

You know? And I think that was a mistake by that teacher, right? Like that teacher should have let me be more efficient get more done. Wasn't a good use of my time. And, you know, whatever. And I think we're making a lot of those same mistakes right now.

Craig Evans:

I have long said, you know, I was on the the Finance Board for our education department here, and got so frustrated with the mindset of how we were going from an educational system. And, you know, because I've always said, listen to the things that we don't do well is we don't teach technology and we don't teach finance. I'm not talking about how to write a check. We just don't teach finance. We don't understand that, you know.

Sean O'Toole:

Basic business too. You know, most people, they're either going to be working for a business or starting a business, and in either case, if they don't fundamentally understand how business works and why it works, and the rest like they just have all these misconceptions and they're not doing a good job for their boss, even if they don't want to own a business. And they get themselves in a lot of trouble when they start a business and don't know what they're doing.

Craig Evans:

So many people don't understand a profitability model that if you don't pay attention to that, the business ends, you know so well. So let me have...

Sean O'Toole:

...a profitable business that doesn't cash flow, or an unprofitable business that does cash flow like and that doesn't even make sense, right? But both are true.

Craig Evans:

That's right. That's right. I teach about that a lot of times in construction, that some of the best business models, that people are, some of the best businesses they have, will run out of cash because they don't understand cash flow. But I've got so much profitability, sure, but you don't have cash flow, and so you're going to be out of business in three months, you know.

Narrator:

We'd also like to thank our Gold Sponsors, Inland Valley Association of Realtors, Keystone CPA, NorCal REIA, NSDREI, Pasadena FIBI, PropertyRadar, The Collective Genius. See, isurvivedrealestate.com for event details.For more information on hard money loans, trust deed investing, and upcoming events with The Norris group. Check out thenorrisgroup.com. For more information on passive investing through the DBL Capital Real Estate Investment Fund, please visit dblapital.com.

Joey Romero:

The Norris group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE license 01219911. Florida mortgage lender license 1577 and NMLS license 1623669. For more information on hard money lending go to thenorrisgroup.com and click the hard money tab.