The Norris Group Real Estate Podcast

Real Estate, Retirement & Self-Directed IRAs with Kaaren Hall | Part 1 #905

• The Norris Group, Craig Evans

Share episode

Kaaren Hall is the founder and CEO of uDirect IRA Services, LLC, a leading provider of self-directed IRA accounts since 2009. With over 20 years of experience in real estate, mortgage lending, and self-directed retirement accounts, she has helped thousands take control of their retirement funds by investing in alternative assets like real estate, private lending, and precious metals. A sought-after speaker, Kaaren has shared her expertise at top industry conferences, including BiggerPockets’ BPCON22, 23 & 24.

In addition to leading uDirect IRA Services, Kaaren founded the Orange County Real Estate Investors Association (OCREIA) in 2012, fostering education and networking among investors. She is also the author of Self-Directed IRA Investing: A BiggerPockets Guide, a comprehensive resource for investors looking to build wealth through self-directed IRAs. Passionate about financial education and advocacy, she serves on the boards of The Council on Aging Southern California and the Retirement Industry Trust Association (RITA), promoting transparency in the retirement industry.

Take control of your future and discover a powerful retirement secret for real estate investors: Self- directed IRAs
Self-Directed IRA Investing: A BiggerPockets Guide with Kaaren Hall. Get it HERE



In this episode:

  • Craig welcomes Kaaren Hall, CEO of uDirect IRA Services LLC
  •  From radio to real estate, how managing an apartment building led to a thriving career.
  • Launching uDirect IRA Services – Kaaren’s path to founding a leading self-directed IRA company.
  • Partnering with The Norris Group – Her long-standing collaboration with Bruce and Aaron Norris and their shared impact.
  • Aaron Norris’ Influence – how Aaron played a key role in uDirect IRA Services’ success.
  • How OCEREIA supports the local community.
  • Self-Directed IRAs Explained – Key benefits and how they empower investors.
  • Understanding regulations for smarter investing.
  • How self-directed IRAs shape long-term wealth strategies.




The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669.  For more information on hard money lending, go www.thenorrisgroup.com and click the Hard Money tab.


Video Link

Radio Show

Narrator:

Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a show committed to bringing you insights from thought leaders shaping the real estate industry. In each episode, we'll dive into conversations with industry experts and local insiders, all aimed at helping you thrive in an ever-changing real estate market. continuing the legacy that Bruce Norris created, sharing valuable knowledge, and empowering you on your real estate journey. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a newcomer, this is your go-to source for insider tips, market trends and success strategies. Here's your host, Craig Evans.

Craig Evans:

Hey everybody, we have got a long time guest and a friend of the show, Karen Hall. Karen is the Founder and CEO of uDirect IRA Services LLC, a leading provider of self directed IRA accounts since 2009, with over two decades of experience in real estate, mortgage lending and property management, Kaaren has empowered 1000s of people to take control of their retirement funds and invest in alternative assets such as real estate, private lending, precious metals and more. Her expertise in Self Directed retirement accounts has made her a sought after speaker, and she's been a featured panelist and presenter at industry leading conferences, including Bigger Pockets, BCON22,'23, and '24 also the founder of OCREIA, where she fosters a vibrant community of real estate investors through education and networking since 2012. Adding to her accolades, if the list isn't long enough, Kaaren is now the author of the newly published Self-Directed IRA Investing a Bigger Pockets guide, the definitive source for investors looking to unlock the power of self directed IRAs to build wealth. This book is published by Bigger Pockets Publishing. This comprehensive guide combines actionable insights, real world examples and Kaaren's extensive industry knowledge to help investors confidently navigate the world of self directed retirement account. Beyond her professional achievements, Kaaren's entrepreneurial journey has enabled her to support meaningful charitable giving and inspire others to take control of their financial futures. She also serves on the board of directors for the Council on Aging Southern California, as well as the board for RITA, the Retirement Industry Trust Association, where she continues to advocate for transparency and education in the retirement industry. All right, Kaaren, we need a break just after that is a list of accolades on your behalf. So, it is great to have you, and it's good to see you. I haven't, but it's been four months back in October since I saw you last.

Kaaren Hall:

I think so. I think so, you guys did a great job. I Survived Real Estate. Oh, man. What Awesome questions. Great panel.

Craig Evans:

So, but before we get into uDirect, because I want to talk about what you do and uDirect. I want to talk about your book, but I want to give people, you know, one of the things I always try to do is give people a chance to know who you are a little is that all right?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, that's great.

Craig Evans:

I've heard and know that you were a radio announcer in Seattle. So is, first of all, is Seattle where you're originally from?

Kaaren Hall:

No, no, I was born in California, you know, and moved around a bit, and then ended up in Seattle. I was promoted from a radio station that I was working at in Phoenix at the time, and promoted to Seattle, and I worked, I did mid days, and I after Jimmy Kimmel. Jimmy Kimmel did the morning show, and then I came on after that, and so I was in Seattle for a few years, and really loved it. What a great town.

Craig Evans:

All right, so I gotta ask, how in did you land a job in radio? Was that a career path that you thought you were like, was this your goal or...?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, it was. It was, I was in college, and I got into first journalism, print journalism, and then it kind of led into broadcast journalism, and then they called me 'the voice' in college. So I was on the radio, and I did a lot of radio commercials, you know, locally, just at the campus station, but then locally, and then ended up having a 17 year career as a broadcaster.

Craig Evans:

Wow, everybody that really knows me knows that I'm a complete goofball. I hope you'll work with me on this. I want to put you on the spot a second can you do a radio intro for our podcast?

Kaaren Hall:

You want me to?

Craig Evans:

Yeah, let's do something. Throw something out there for me.

Kaaren Hall:

Oh, god, okay. Well, all right. Well, let's see. The Norris Group Radio Real Estate Show. It's an award winning show, hosted by Craig Evans and you will understand real estate when you listen to the program. We'll cover regulation, legislation, and economics and investor trades and really no nonsense education, so you'll learn what's really happening in real estate investing today.

Craig Evans:

That's awesome. That's great. That's so much fun. All right. Now, I've done my silly stuff because I'm just as I say, I goofball, right? So, what was your first job in the real estate industry? How did you get from radio to real estate?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, I like to say I made the logical transition from radio to real estate. Because, like, how do we all get into it? A lot of us, don't start there, right? It's, you decide, well, I decided I wanted to make some money. Radio wasn't high paying industry broadcasting, unless, you know, unless, of course, you're the star.

Craig Evans:

Right.

Kaaren Hall:

So, I did a lot of good things, but that was not I didn't become a star. So, I got into real estate, and let's see, how did I do this? I say, Oh, well, I started managing an apartment building. That's how I did it. I started managing an apartment building. I made friends with someone, and she worked for a big Property Management Group. She says, Hey, manage this little building for us. S,o I managed a 10 unit building, and it's like, oh, she does this pretty well. So then a bigger building and a bigger building. And so, that was very educational, having to evict people. We had someone die in a unit, you know, and when they with the eviction, I went to court and but, you know, collecting rents, taking care of the property while I was also a radio announcer in Seattle. And then I got a real estate license, and for one year, drove people around in my car, and, you know, and I learned that that job's kind for somebody else, you know, God bless them. That's a different job. Not that I didn't really, you know, take to so. But then I got, I was engaged, and we moved around. I was a trailing spouse for a while, and I got into mortgage loan servicing, and that put me in the mortgage track, which I loved. It was so interesting. I would say, you get a little beat up as a loan officer. Eventually, I was started in servicing when I was a loan officer, but learned so much about the lending business, and what you could, you know, you know this when you look at loans, you look at them all day, and you can tell, like, how do people get wealthy? What are their 1040s look like? And how do they do it? And so really taught me how I could build my wealth.

Craig Evans:

Right.

Kaaren Hall:

So, it was huge education. And then, I mean, fast forward lots of years, and in, what was it, 2007 or around that the time that there was the, you know, we had that great recession, you remember that?

Craig Evans:

I think everybody that was breathing remembers that.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, you know. And so in living in Orange County, all the radios in LA wasn't going to do radio, wasn't going to do real estate living in Orange County. So I got in, I walked into the self directed IRA space and interviewed with a company. They hired me, and they said, open our office here. So I did that. I did really well. In fact, I opened, after two years, I opened my own company, and this is it, uDirect IRA Services and we've just taken up. We have, like, over a billion dollars.

Craig Evans:

Wow.

Kaaren Hall:

Like $1.2 billion in assets. So, yeah, so, it's gone really, really well, you know, go 15, 16, years later, and, and here we are just really helping a lot of people build their retirement.

Craig Evans:

That's fantastic. When did you become familiar with Bruce, The Norris Group, this whole process? When, when did you learn about us?

Kaaren Hall:

I think it's right. When I opened uDirect like 2009 Amanda Han and I. Amanda Han, if you don't know where she's at,well, you know her. She's a wonderful CPA, she and her husband, Matt McFarland, so Matt and Amanda and I each started our separate companies in the same executive suite, and Amanda just called Bruce and called Aaron, and we started working with them, and it was just a love match. How many events did we do together? I couldn't even count you know. I Survived Real Estate. We did that, the Financial Tactics Brunch annually, and just so many different events, and we really became a trio that our three companies of doing events

Craig Evans:

So, it's interesting, you mentioned together. Aaron, and you actually had talked to me this past year that I Survived about Aaron, and lot of the impact that he had had on your life and your business. Tell our listeners some of that that, you know, you don't have to get every detail, but I would love for our listeners to hear, how those are the unsung things that most people don't ever know about Aaron,you know.

Kaaren Hall:

Well, everybody who knows Aaron knows that he'd give you the shirt off his back. You know he was never too busy, you call him. He always had time. And he acted like you were the only friend that he knew, you know, you just always felt so special. And I thought, oh, I thought I was the only one. Everyone knows it's quite about Aaron. It's so great. But one, Aaron did something especially amazing that was so helpful to me, starting off this company. And we were at the Mission Inn in Riverside, and we did one of our Financial Tactics Brunches there. It was so fun. We were on the big stage there, and so historic. And, well, he would always want to broadcast those lives. So, they've got on video. And Aaron in 2011 got it, you know, chopped up into a video, and got YouTube to accept it. Now, YouTube wasn't broadcasting videos that were that long. I think it's like 40 minutes long, and it's still out there. We'd have something like 66,000 hits on that video.

Craig Evans:

Wow.

Kaaren Hall:

But the things that put me on the map, put uDirect on the map, and and helped us, you know, gave us a name and gave us more of a national presence. You know, we're a national presence now. We have account holders in every state, but it was because Aaron, he took his own time editing that video, negotiating with YouTube without even telling me. I mean, like, what a giver, what a giver, man. And I'm so grateful, so eternally grateful to him. And then when he said he was sick, well, that was quite a blow. But we, you know, we just love him. We always, he's someone who will never go away. He's always with me.

Craig Evans:

You know, legacy is important to me. I mean, it's in, literally, in the name of my companies, you know, everything we do is about trying to create legacy. You've always been a great supporter of The Norris Group, but also, and, you know, probably, probably because of the friendship that you and Aaron had, things like that, but... But you've always been, you know, started looking

Kaaren Hall:

Oh yeah. back. You've always been a really big supporter of our event, I Survived Real Estate as well. Tell us, why is that important to you to give back? I'm sure you give back in a lot of the ways. But why is that one facet important to you? Wow. Well, first off, I want to support anything The Norris Group does, and when I could afford it, I went from a like a Gold Sponsor to a Platinum Sponsor, just out of the gratitude for all that The Norris Group has done for uDirect, and it's really, you know, Aaron. It's for Aaron's legacy as well. And, of course, Bruce, of course, as well. And but it's such a wonderful event. I think there's just nothing like it locally, you know, in Orange County, or it's in Riverside County, I suppose. And it's like a homecoming of everyone in the local Southern California real estate investment world. And then you can see, normally, these real estate investors. They're all looking at properties all day, and they're in their grubby clothes. But it's when you could see somebody like, I don't know, Bill Tan in a tuxedo, you know, just so many great people. And so it's a homecoming, is what it is. And I just love that event. It's wonderful to see everybody and support, of course, Make-A-Wish, and all the various charities that The Norris Group has supported over the years, raising, what, over a million dollars. I mean, it's crazy.

Craig Evans:

Yeah. So listen, you know, we read your list of accolades, the, you know and it's never ending stuff, and that's awesome to see, right? Because, you know, I've kind of decided, we've talked a lot about, you know, in the industry, we even talked about it at I Survived this past year about being able to pivot right? And it's clear that you have pivoted through your career at different points to whether it was for sheer desire, whether it was necessity, whatever it was, you've pivoted and into a pocket that now you found like this, is it, right? So, but one of the things, and with all the stuff that you do, I find this one interesting, you know, you've got the Orange County Real Estate Investment Association. When did you decide that that was going to be the brainchild and the really good idea.

Kaaren Hall:

Well, you know, I was approached by National REIA, and they said, 'Hey, we want you to open at Orange County Real Estate Investment Group.' And I said, 'No', you know. And then they came back again, 'No, really, really do.' I said,'No'. And then, so then they invited me to the event that they have national, the national event, and that happened to be in Bellevue, Bellevue, Washington, beautiful city. Love it. And I was there sitting in the back, and it was toward the end, and they said, 'Oh, and we'd like to announce our newest chapter leader, Karen Hall.' I hadn't even said yes. I was like voluntold, you know, it's like,'All right, I'll do it', you know. And I'm so grateful that I did. I'm super grateful to National REIA and I formed OCREIA. I didn't think I'd have time, because my kids were still in school at the time, and my attention was divided enough, but I brought them in on it, and they would work the registration table, and so it gave them that experience too. So I brought the kids in, and just started bringing in local real estate investors. It's great to see that some of the people, like White Feather, who also sponsors, I Survived Real Estate, you know, The Rushings, and when they were first, you know, new real estate investors, having them speak. In fact, Buddy was deployed and Kimberly was there at an event when the Orange County Register showed up and interviewed Kimberly, and she was a feature story about being a military wife, and her husband was deployed, and what she was doing. And of course, Kimberly is so brilliant that she just was talking all about her real estate investing, just experiences, and it was a wonderful article. So it was great to see those people and where they are now, because that was 2012 so that's been a hot minute, right?

Craig Evans:

Yep, and yeah, Buddy and Kimberly have done a great job. We do a lot with them now, and their Financial Freedom events that they put on several times a year. Super excited for them. But as I was looking and reading through your bio and everything that you do right, I thought to my wife and everything that she does in our family, and I had to sit there and think, 'How in the world does Kaaren balance everything between uDirect, OCREIA , Speaking, her own investments, everything that she does, you know. And I wanted to get into that and ask that a little bit talk about that, because I want, especially for the young investors, to hear, hey, listen, here's how you can do this and still have a balance, right? It doesn't have to own you.

Kaaren Hall:

No, that's true. That's true. And you find your balance. I mean, you make your balance, and you make things work, and you divide time. Because if I thought, if I was going to do this all fresh, I think I'd flip out to get organized. But it's just, it's been like, like, adding little things, one at a time until it just flows, you know. And of course, at uDirect IRA Services I have staff, and they handle the majority of working with our customers and helping people. And so then a couple years ago, I hired an operations manager who handles a lot of the day to day things, but it's just, you just make time. I don't know how it all happens, but it does. I'm sure your wife feels the same way. Perhaps she does it. You don't think about it. You just wake up and do it.

Craig Evans:

So, when does your club meet? When does OCREIA meet? Is it live? Is it on Zoom? What's the layout of that now.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, for years and years, we were live. We've always met at the Avenue of the Arts hotel in Costa Mesa, California, until COVID. So, March of 2020, was our last meeting, but we did have bring Bruce back in January of this year of 2025, and then, but we're on Zoom again until we can find another speaker of Bruce's ilk. You know somebody who bring, who draws a big, big crowd, but it's so wonderful to meet in person, and when we did in January, it was wonderful, because, again, it was a bit of a reunion. People coming, even we're driving down from Los Angeles, driving up from San Diego to Orange County to hear Bruce speak, and again, a bit of a reunion. So, we're hybrid now between zoom and between the Avenue of the Arts Hotel. So just if you go to our website, which is ocreia.com you'll see whether we're live or on either way we're live always, but whether we're in person or on zoom.

Craig Evans:

Right. Now, I want to get into the meat and potatoes of who Kaaren Hall is now, right? Let's talk about what you do. And really, I want to get into uDirect IRA, and I wanna hear about the services, right? So give me, what do you guys do?

Kaaren Hall:

Right. What do we do? You know, we help people. You know, we're a service company, and we help people. So, there's this enormous need to have retirement money, you know, to save for your retirement. I mean, can you even address me? Imagine just all of a sudden the faucet of your income just stops, and now you're retired, and so you're not earning money. What are you living on? And to really think about that reality like, hey, there's no employment. So what am I living on? And kind of start with that thought in your head. And so when I thought about that for myself, I thought, well, what's, what is that going to be? So, it's a they're like layers, you know, one layer is maybe Social Security, but still around, see, you know, another layer would be retirement accounts. You know, would be, whether they're self directed, or there could be your employer account, maybe you've got IRAs and and they're crucial. But it's another layer. Another layer, maybe annuities or life insurance, or if you've got a defined benefit plan, which is another kind of retirement account, you know, maybe it's your real estate portfolio, but you've got to start building multiple strains of income for your retirement. And so self directed IRAs are a huge piece of that puzzle, because you don't just want to rely on one thing. And when you do, we've seen in our lifetimes that we think, 'Oh, this, you know, too big to fail, right'.

Craig Evans:

Right.

Kaaren Hall:

And then fails, right? So with the self directed IRA, you can have some IRAs in the market, you know, where they're stock market based. And the market has always gone up. Maybe not every stock has gone up, but the market itself has always increased. And so there's, you know, there's a good case for being invested in the market, but you want to diversify. And so what our account holders do, what we help them do is to take their retirement where it is, move it into a self directed IRA, and then maybe invest, well, the really the number one asset class of syndications. So, someone like yourself gets a Reg A, Reg, B, C, D, offering, puts that together, raises capital to build buildings. You know, maybe you're going to build multi family. Maybe you're going to buy a portfolio of single family, maybe it could be a lot of different things. You could have a syndication for mobile home parks and store multiple you know, multi units, storage units, to all different kinds of assets. So if you're an accredited investor, you can use a self directed IRA, and you can get into these kinds of assets that normally only the uber rich used to only be able to get into, syndication will help give you that ability. So just starting with the basis that it's incredibly important to save for retirement. Self Directed IRAs help you do that through alternative assets. And it's very rewarding to see our account holders, you know, build, you know, and have enough to so that they can retire. And it's a huge service that we offer.

Craig Evans:

Correct me if I'm wrong. But like different types of self directed. Is that correct? I mean, because, like, you even just mentioned, like, okay, let's say somebody wants to invest in a syndication, right? You're just talking about syndications. Is that a different type versus somebody that wants to invest in precious metals or in gems? Or are there different scenarios and IRAs that help in those avenues.

Kaaren Hall:

Right. Well, a self directed IRA lets you invest across the the gamut of assets. Now, precious gems, by the way, are not considered, you know, allowable into a self directed IRA. It's considered a collectible. So I'll throw that out there. But okay, so the kinds of IRAs, they're not categorized by the asset class. They're categorized as a, and really by their tax treatment. So it's a traditional is a number one kind of IRA, traditional IRA, where you can contribute this year, $7,000 if you're under 50. $8,000, if you're 50 plus per year, and build or you can take your old employer plan, move it into a traditional IRA. So there's a traditional, a Roth, where the proceeds, if you follow the rules, come out tax free. That's really the brass ring.

Craig Evans:

Right.

Kaaren Hall:

If you're self employed, there's something called a SEP IRA, a Simplified Employee Pension. There's a simple IRA. And so, you know, we all know that if the government Yeah, you really want to dig into that, but so

Craig Evans:

Really. calls something simple, it isn't. Savings Incentive Match plan for employers. Okay, so it's an acronym, but the SEP really replaced the SIM, because it's got so many more bills and whistles, higher contribution limits. So traditional Roth steps simple, if you were working, or say, your spouse is working and you're not, you can have a spousal IRA, which is really just like a traditional or Roth, but you can still it's the IRA class, but really, one of the super accounts in contribute to it, even without an earned income. And then self directed IRA world is the solo 401 (k). So for people who there's the inherited IRA. Okay, so someone who named you a are self employed, have no full time employees in any of the companies they own, right, they can have this solo 401 (k), beneficiary passes you inherit their IRA. Now you can still which has got a huge contribution limit to $70,000 a party could make part of the contributions Roth. You could invest and still self direct with that. And there are lots of even take a plan loan from a 401(k), which you can't from an IRA. You can actually personally borrow money you have to pay the rules about inherited IRAs, which you probably don't want to account back. But you could take a personal loan from that account of the lesser $50,000 or 50% of the account value. So, get into today. I take continuing ed, and that's a full the solo 401 (k) is really kind of a, you know, favorite in this self directed IRA world. So, it's really the account type. eight hour day of nothing but the inheritance, because they're And then when you've got the account types, now, what can those account types invest in? And those are alternative all, if the moon is full on a Tuesday, then you do this. I assets. So the IRS said that you can invest in anything except life insurance contracts and collectibles. So it leaves it mean, lots of specifics. wide open. But precious gems are collectible, so. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting on the solo 401 (k), because even for young investors now, that means they could start putting money and pouring that into avenues that really help protect them.

Kaaren Hall:

Right. And get a tax break too. That's the other thing. I mean, when you have a self directed IRA, or when you're an investor at all, you really need to work with a good tax person and having a good attorney who is looking at your contracts, but your good tax person needs to be working, you need to work closely with them about your contributions and about your investing so that, first off, your tax person can give you those tax deductions.

Craig Evans:

Through these processes. I understand the different counts, things like that. How does uDirect, help investors and navigate these channels? You know? What do you guys do in that process?

Kaaren Hall:

Well, I mean, we don't grow up learning about self directed IRAs at all, right? And most people don't understand them, so there's just a lot of misunderstanding, like,'I have this real estate property?' People will say, 'Can I put my real estate house? I already own my rental into my IRA?' No, you can only contribute cash. So, you have to build an IRA large enough to, if you want to own a house, you have to have enough money in the IRA. Or you can partner with somebody to put a house in an IRA. Or you could even take on a non recourse loan to invest, but you don't, your IRA does not invest in assets you already own. So, there are rules that you need to follow, and prohibited transactions you need to avoid. So, the average person is an expert at that, but we are. So, we'll ask people, we do we offer a 20 minute free consultation. Tell us about your deal, you know, and also tell us about your retirement account. Where is it now? Do you have a traditional Roth so that it gets into and you know? And like a new account with a very same tax treatment. That's important. So there are a lot of questions and a lot of sorting out about what you can and can't do. So, we walk people through that.

Craig Evans:

Can you have debt service inside an IRA?

Kaaren Hall:

is an account, but a it's like a commercial loan. And, well, you know this, you know, but an IRA can take on this debt, and when it does, the IRA is going to be paying a tax on any proceeds earned because of leverage. So if you borrow, say, 30%, then 30% of the proceeds you receive from that deal are taxable, called the UDFI, Unrelated Debt Financed Income Tax. And if you want to read about it, it's irs.gov, Publication 590, right? And there are a lot of people listening to you, listening to this program, and that's one of the rule books is the is irs.gov that website. So publication 598 talks about UDFI and also UBIT tax.

Craig Evans:

Well, and those are things I want our people to hear is because I think so many times, especially if you're young investors or young you know, professionals in any venue, you know there are any avenues, so to speak, that they're looking at. Well, I don't have enough money to put into an IRA I can't do anything. Yeah, I want them to start understanding that there's a lot to this world and having that professional in your corner, is what makes it different.

Joey Romero:

Okay, everyone that's going to do it for this week's episode of The Norris Group real estate podcast, be sure to tune in next week for part two of our interview with Kaaren Hall, CEO of uDirect IRA Services.

Narrator:

For more information on hard money loans, trust deed investing, and upcoming events with The Norris group. Check out thenorrisgroup.com. For more information on passive investing through the DBL Capital Real Estate Investment Fund, please visit dblapital.com.

Joey Romero:

The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE license 01219911. Florida mortgage lender license 1577 and NMLS license 1623669. For more information on hard money lending go to thenorrisgroup.com and click the hard money tab.