In this episode Pastor Sam Colon (Circle of Christ Church) and I discuss the topic Church hurt. How it occurs, how as individuals we can prevent causing hurt to someone & how to deal with church hurt. Key verse : Philippians 1:27.
In this episode Pastor Sam Colon (Circle of Christ Church) and I discuss the topic Church hurt. How it occurs, how as individuals we can prevent causing hurt to someone & how to deal with church hurt. Key verse : Philippians 1:27.
[inaudible]
Speaker 2:God bless everyone and welcome to build up in Christ the podcast and my name is Darby Paris. And in this session, we also have, again with us, Pastor Sam Colon from Circle of Christ Church, hallelujah.
Speaker 1:Hi, well God bless each. And every one of you, I'm so glad to be here. This is my second time in a row, u h, being with brother Darby here, and I'm looking forward to just exchanging ideas and sharing. Amen.
Speaker 2:So, um, as we end the last session with Pastor Sam, we touched a little bit on church hurt, and this is the topic we're going to be talking about today. Um, the title of this podcast is dealing with Church Hurt We have to keep in mind that Most of the writing in the New Testament is about how to live in a church exists because the church has never been perfect. Most, if not all, of the letters were written to solve problems in the church. If it was to look at Galatians, it was to solve legalism. If we looked at Colossians, it was to solve heresy. If we look at 2 Timothy, it was a solve tension in succession and for Philippians it was to solve conflict and selfish ambition, and you have 1st and 2nd Corinthians to solve a whole host of problems centered around the issues of human pride and gift and speaking that lets a Loveless and arrogant religious activity. And that's not even to mention the letters in the churches, to the churches in Revelations, which is covered in chapters two and three one, which is so unhealthy. And we think we have problems! We're going to start off with this session reading, um, the key verse, which is found in Philippians chapter one, verse 27, and we're going to read it in the NIV and the name of the father, son and Holy spirit,"whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one spirit striving together as one for the faith of the gospel". Now Paul knows that the way Christians live is important to their witness for the gospel Paul cause unbelievers to remain faithful to the gospel message through words and actions, which should be Christ-like. We are citizens of heaven and should behave accordingly. And pastor Sam, what do you think about that? The fact that we're considered citizens of heaven and how we should behave?
Speaker 3:Well, I, I, especially at this time, we're just about to enter into an election time. And if that's anything dividing, the church it's it's politics, uh, there are some who favor one candidate and others who favor another candidate and, and others like me who don't favor anybody. Uh, because I see myself first of all, as a citizen of the kingdom. And it's, it's, it's the fact that, uh, we don't hold that principle, uh, and many nominal Christians, um, see themselves first as Americans or as, um, in my case, Puerto Rican, others as African-Americans otherization Americans. And, and if we, if we're born again, we're first of all members and citizens of the kingdom of God. So I think that's a very appropriate and very, very, very real situation, especially now. I mean, our nation is divided. We, we, we have, uh, a crisis that's been going on for quite a while, but so is the church the church has, has been divided. And so this is just another layer of divisions, obviously. Um, you know, the Catholics have a Pope, the Protestants have 15,000 Pope's, uh, the charismatics, I can't even count them and everybody's got a title or another. And I think that it's, it's a sad, uh, it's a sad, uh, assessment of the situation. If we go to John 17, the high priestly prayer, the most important concern that Jesus had and addressing the father was to keep them as a one as he is one. And so unity is a very powerful weapon in evangelism, but, and he says it when, when, when the world sees that they all one, speaking of the disciples, when the world sees that they are one as you and I father a one, then the world will know that you have sent me. That's a powerful, powerful verse because he's, he's, he's making a direct correlation with evangelism, revival, awakenings, and either the unity or lack of if people are not getting saved, the condition and nature of the church may have a big, uh, to do. Um, but if there is an awakening, you will see that people are not worried about their selfish ambitions, but they're there. Their main drive is to glorify God. So this is a very, very common situation.
Speaker 2:And that's what we see going on today in, um, churches, the fact that some people are so fearful of the pandemic and it's due to the fact that, um, they're, they're not sure of when you so fearful of the pandemic. You're not sure that crisis in the making of things, you know, that Christ has his hand in all things. And we have to be careful of that because here's the thing. If I'm a believer in Christ and I carry myself in that manner, how is the person who doesn't serve Christ, going to react to me, who they know I'm a Christian and react in that way that I'm not so sure anymore, we can't have wavering faith. And one of the causes that we see this happening as well is due to people being hurt in their churches.
Speaker 3:Well, you know that that's a Pandora's box. Um, but I, uh, before we get into the hurt, I will just say this, there are many Christians who are not disciples. And so if you're a disciple, you're a follower of Jesus. And as you, as you grow in the Lord, because to follow Jesus is to grow because he's going to get you growing. He'll put you in situations and he'll set you up in directions that will force you to live by faith and trust him. Um, so when I'm confronted with like, say a pandemic, I think the illogically immediately, what does God say? What does God expect from me? What have others in the faith done when plagues have come, when oppression has come, when Wars have raised risen, um, what did Moses do? What did David do? What did Jesus do? What did the disciples do? If you're not trained to think that way, then the fear will take over your life and you lose your testimony. The book of Revelation says they overcame the dragon, which is a figure of Satan. They overcame the dragon by the word, by the power of the blood, right? And by the word of their testimony. And so you have to have a testimony, uh, that, that is based on redemption. The blood delivers us from our sins. And because it delivers us from our sins, we have access to God because we have access to God. Then God can speak into our lives and, and we testify. And then the last part, and they love not their lives, even unto the death. What does that mean? When your rate, when your faith level raises, then the attachments to this life no longer have a hacked, a headlock on you. It begins to release, and you begin to see that your life has always belong to the Lord. That's one thing. Um, but you, you, you brought up church hurt and church hurt is a very, very real thing. One of the things I've found i n, in ministry for the last maybe 20 years is that I've been ministering to a lot of not unchurched people. I do that. When we go out to the street, w e, we look for them and we want to, and we preach to them, but there's a whole of church.
Speaker 4:People who have been burnt out and they have given up, not on God, but on the institution called the church. When the church is an institution, there's a greater propensity for hurt. When the church is an organism, it's an extension. It is the body of Christ they'll will always be hurt. But when N w when, when it's an organism, the life of the head flows through it. When the head says, um, leave your gift at the altar, go and be reconciled with your father, uh, with your brother. Uh, when the head says, forgive those that hurt you. And it says, bless those, that even curse you. And if your enemy, if your enemy asked you to walk a mile, walk to, if that's the way we should deal with the outsiders, how much more should we go out of our way to be reconciled with the insights, but no one can hurt you more than someone you love. That's, that's the, that's the one that really hurts you. I mean, a guy in the street calls me a dead dog. I wouldn't even turn around, but, uh, but if my brother in Christ, uh, my sister in Christ said, you know, you, you really hurt me. I, I never want to see you again. I, that hurts. That hurts deeply. And when we're hurt, we look to protect ourselves. And one of the ways we protect ourselves is either justifying or making the other one, the other person, the bad guy, uh, because then we find relief and that's not what Jesus modeled. Uh, when Peter came out to him, what do I do with my brother, uh, offends me seven times. And should I forgive him seven times? Jesus does the hyperbolic, the hyperbole beyond, in other words, 70 times, 70, in other words, forgiveness should not be an accidental thing that happens in a Christian's life. But when you're connected to Jesus, forgiveness is a natural flow because he who has received much, grace should offer much
Speaker 2:Amen. And keeping in mind that, you know, if we want God to forgive us, then we have to forgive others. And the other thing is, um, I always like to relate this, this, um, analogy. I usually do it with the youth that we all walk around with a backpack. Now, the question is, how much are you carrying in that backpack? If you kind of fact that somebody hurts you and you carrying that burden constantly with you, and then you carry other issues that you have in that backpack, that backpack starts becoming pretty heavy. Um, you should carry the bare minimum in that backpack. Meaning that if someone hurt me, I need to present it to the Lord, set it and forget it. I put it in the Lord's hands, keep praying for that person. And that's it. And forget it and move on and just keep my eyes on Christ. But if I keep letting that carry in my backpack, that burden starts becoming heavy and the Lord asks us to cast our burdens onto him.
Speaker 5:Right. So that's what we need to learn to continuously do. Um, and the simple analogy we need to imagine our backpack being very small, like a Fanny pack, but you see people here who are carrying rucksacks of burdens, of issues of people who hurt them. And they say, yeah, yeah, I forgive them. But yet you carry that crossing. Yeah, but I don't forget. No, no, we're not called to forgive. And then just keeping in mind, we're caught to forgive and let go, and we need to take a look at examples of what kind of church hurt can occur in churches.
Speaker 4:Well, uh, uh, what you said is so powerful and, and it reminds me of, uh, uh, Hebrews where it says, uh, uh, let let go of every weight of sin that, so you see the preset you, because, uh, he uses the marathon, uh, race as the analogy, uh, how are you going to win the race? If you are carrying a heavy load? So Christians should walk light, they should not carry anything, but that that's, uh, uh, I want to go back to, no one can hurt you. Like someone you love. And we're church hurt gets really, really complex is, is, is because we have a distorted view of leadership. We don't have a biblical view of leadership, one of our phones, um, we don't have a, um, um, maybe that's it, um, a real biblical view of leadership. The only one who's Lord is Jesus Christ. Uh, w w because, because much of the institutional church works in ranks and hierarchical. So you have, uh, the arch Bishop, the Bishop, the Monsignor, the, this, or that. And then you have the elder and they had the men's leaders fellowship. It's a lot of ranks and, um, power tends to get to the head. And so pride and power are not good combinations. And so when, when a leader doesn't humble themselves, doesn't recognize that they've done wrong. And yet they'll burden the person who has been wrong. Then the person who has been wrong has an excessive view of importance of that person. And, and so that's caused for them to abandon the faith. There are so many people who have abandon the faith, because they, the pastor or the associate pastor, or the pastor's wife offended them, or didn't care, didn't treat them the way they should have. And because they have an overestimated view of their importance, it hurts deeply. And so that's why, um, we should follow the role model of Jesus. He didn't come to Lord it over us. His Lordship over us is not because he's the all powerful one. His Lordship over us is because he's our ransom. He's our deliverer. He's the one who laid down his life. He said the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. So a lot of times we don't have a good ecclesiology. We don't have a biblical ecclesiology. We don't have a good, uh, idea of what is great in the kingdom. The greatest in the kingdom is a servant of all. So we see that the qualities of a, of a great leaders usually, you know, he's a great orator. Um, he's a fantastic, exegesis, uh, he speaks the original languages. Um, he's amazing. He lays hands and people get healed. All of these sensational great qualities, but biblically the greatest is he who is the servant of all. So then the virtue of humility and Sub as submission and surrender, uh, really the qualities that God looks at to re, to, to raise you into leadership. But we build up what the world looks at the world looks at. You know, the guy who looks good, the guy who talks good, the guy who dresses good, the guy would influence the guy who drives a fancy car, very charismatic, charismatic. Um, and so when that person hurts you, because you have projected onto that person, an overestimated value, that is your fault. Because if you go to the Bible, uh, those things will pass away. The only things that are really valuable are the eternal things. Okay. But we cause we call ourselves Christians, but still have a worldly value system. And that just doesn't work. We have to teach, uh, people in the church to judge and make decisions, not on the world value system, but, um, biblical values. And only the things that are returnable are the things worth fighting for. Everything else will pass away. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall stand forever. So when you have Christians, who've been in church 20 years and don't know the word they're very easy to offend and very easy to let go and quit. So I don't like blaming the victim. And I, I do think that it's, leader's responsibilities to teach and train, but in organized religion, um, there's a whole, there are many, many ways to rise to the top without really knowing Jesus. You could be the number one tither, and they'll put you on the board.
Speaker 2:Hm. And, and that's not the way to run things. And the other thing, when we start realizing is that, um, when we look at things with worldly, eyes is due to the fact. And it's interesting, cause you said, um, you wanted to start a podcast on discipleship. It's the fact is that we have to continuously disciple people and reminding people of the value of their salvation. Um, for example, if I don't continuously do Something, I lose that muscle memory. So then I forget how to do it. And the same way it's spiritual muscle memory, we have to continuously remind people how to disciple so they can continue making other disciples. But also to remember you are a disciple as well, because we can easily forget we're a disciple. Once you come to the Lord, one of the things that happened, and this pandemic has started resetting in churches, is that okay, I'm sitting in a church, I got comfortable. I'm doing things, but only things within church. I'm not going out to the people. I'm not serving the community, but now this pandemic is forcing us to go out. You know, cause now we can't get comfortable. Like I've spoken to a couple of people, as well as you Pastor Sam. This has really reset the church. Cause now you're forced to go out. You can't be comfortable in the pews anymore. Now it's like, Oh my God, was I just really sitting on the pews all these years and not doing anything.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And I, I agree with you wholeheartedly that, and that's a good thing that it actually makes us uncomfortable and, and having, uh, unfortunately the other, the opposite view is also true. There are people who just said, I can't go out. This is too dangerous. And, and so they are for, for all points and purposes, they're living in a backslidden and they're not even taking advantage of the online services and so on and so forth. So it, it is, um, it's something that Jesus said that, um, that one of the signs of his coming would be, uh, as it was in the times of Noah. And, uh, one of the things that happened in the times of know is that, you know, Noah for 120 years was saying the flood is coming, flood is coming, man. Nobody knew what a flood was anyway. So, so what were they doing? They were living their lives the way they felt like it. They were drinking and partying and getting married, nothing wrong with that and giving themselves into marriage. And then suddenly it starts to rain and, Oh my God, no, it was right by the time they get to the, to the arc, the doors are closed. And I think that complacency and, um, and just taking things for granted, the love of God for granted, uh, neglecting the grace of God, the Bible says that we can neglect the grace of God. Uh, Paul says to the Galatians, you know, who be witched? You, you have fallen from grace, you know, like racist and amazing thing, but it can be abused. It could be neglected. And so if you're not constantly nourishing yourself, but I don't know why discipleship is such a big deal because, and it's so complicated and people are not doing it because Jesus said, go and make disciples. He didn't say, go and plant churches or go and start concerts or, or do a lot of things that we do. And some of these things are good. You know, I started soup kitchens to feed the poor. We started drug programs to rescue the addicted, but he said, go and make disciples. So it, you know, you can write a good answer on your essay, but the professor's asking for a specific thing, right? So you could write a very eloquent essay and get a zero. Why? Because he could say, what did I ask you to do? And he said, make disciples, teach them whatsoever things. I have commanded you baptizing them in the name of the father and the son and the Holy spirit. So when churches are not making disciples, but churches don't make disciples. That's the other problem. Churches cannot make disciples. Only disciples can make disciples. This is what you were saying. We're always in the discipleship mode. I'm learning how to be a disciple. I'm trying to become a more committed follower of Jesus and student of his ways. And, and I love Paul's audacity. He said to the church imitate me as I imitate God that's audacity. Now I don't think that he was arrogant. I think that this was one of the most sold out men. He had a, such an encounter with Jesus Christ and Jesus said, you're going to do this and this and this for me. And he realized that his entire life was old to Jesus. And so he could dare say a, watch me come and eat with me. I'm going to show you how our Christian lives I'm going to share when we can say that when we can say to a young brother, Hey, you want to know how to preach, come and follow me. And, uh, you want to learn how to pray, come and pray with me. And when, when, when we're able to do that, then we're beginning to scratch the surface, but going back to church hurt. Um, um, I, I think of, you know, w where, where, where do you see that in the vibe? Well, obviously in the old Testament, you see a lot of drama, you know, I mean Joseph so bias, but his brothers and, and is one of the most powerful stories of the old Testament. Uh, when, when they discover that the guy who's liberating them and getting them in trouble is Joseph, uh, an unholy, panic came upon them. He's going to tell Papa what we did and we're dead, we're out. And he turns to them and he says, don't worry, what you meant for evil. God turned it around for good. He was Christ. Like at that moment, this is, this is the Jesus of the cross father. Forgive them for, they know not what they do. Uh, Steven adopted that as their pelting, him with Paul's authorization and, and the young man's clothes are at Paul's feet. He has a vision of Jesus and he sees him, he says, don't hold this sin against them. The next chapter, Luke concentrates on Paul's conversion. So, so when, when we are really disciples, we find the good in the bad, the good in the bad, like this is the hurt me. Well, uh, to disciple was say, what was God trying to teach me? Hm, okay. A nominal Christian says, I g ot t o go to another church. I can't stand this sister any longer. T hat's w hy.
Speaker 2:And that's why I liked the idea of Paul because Paul, as much as he went through, we know Paul prosecuted Christians, and he saw the light when Jesus came directly to him and selected him. But one of the examples of church hurt that Paul lived was the fact that some of the disciples, they didn't want to accept him because they couldn't believe that he was converted.
Speaker 4:Could you blame them?[inaudible] cautious to try to play the funk. You know exactly what he had to ask. What is God teaching me? And what did he do? He went to the desert for three years and had an encounter with Jesus that changes.
Speaker 2:But the example I'm trying to say here with Paul is that he went through a form of church hurt. Cause he is he's called by Christ to disciple others. And yet when he tried to get with the other apostles at first, they didn't want to accept him. So you don't emotionally and spiritually, that must have hurt, but he understood it. He didn't carry that grudge. No. You know what he did was he continued to work. And for most people who are in ministry, we have to understand that we're easier, easily attacked by the enemy in positions when church hurt affects us, because the enemy doesn't like us to work for the Lord. So he's going to send ways for us to get hurt. Now, mind you, when we were outside of the, when we didn't serve the Lord, there's very little that will normally affect us. You know, somebody upset us. We'll be like, Oh, whatever. But then when we're in Christ, all the same, every little thing bugs us.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I, you know, I'll tell you you're right in picking Paul. It must be my phone. So if you hear a ring, it doesn't mean it's over. It's just the next round. Okay. Um, because Paul, I mean, he had many hurts. Uh, he was the founding father of the church in a cave. That's the Corinthian church. And he wrote them three to four letters. We only have two. And the two that we have, Oh my God, you talk about drama. Uh, there was a whole lot of hurt. And, uh, and, and, and he has to correct them. And then he's forced to telling them, to tell them, um, his own importance. And he says, I'm crazy for saying this. Cause it sounds like I'm boasting, but you're willing to pay and give offerings to these super apostles. And you have many, many teachers, but you only have one father. But one that God sent to bring you into the gospel is me. And you wouldn't send a PA, Hey, it goes a church in Macedonia, which is the Philippians. Uh, and they have much are much smaller church with less resources, but they have never failed. And then he says, and I did you wrong. I should have taught you, but I didn't want you to think that I was serving the Lord for money. And so he had a lot of hurt that was there. Um, Oh gosh, you talk about the Galatians. Um, he said, who be witched? You, he had won them to the Lord. Th this is a church that was built on the skin, on his and the blood. He was left for dead. They pelted him with stones to understand these letters. You have to read the book of acts and then correlate them. He, he, when he won the Galatians to the Lord, he won them, having been pelted, abused, uh, mistreated. Uh, he actually, uh, he actually was, was left hanging by one of the missionaries, a young man named John Mark. He actually got into a severe argument with his mentor, the one who went and picked them up and out of the garbage heap and brought him back into the ministry. Barnabas. They contended the Greek word. There is they, they had fits the literal meaning of the Greek word is they argued too. They had fits. And the resolution was to divide. That was the result. And it was a good resolution. It was a good resolution because Barnabas took John Mark and they covered Asia. And Paul took Silas and God redirected them to Europe. And so God takes advantage of the conflicts in the church and evangelizes the world.
Speaker 5:And I like to pause you there for a moment. The other thing I like to use as an example is how the Lord calls us to forgive. If there's a riff and there's a disagreement, just agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Exactly. And you still have to love each other. So we have no option. So for example, you're serving up the Lord. I'm a servant of the Lord. If we come to a disagreement, we just agree to disagree, but the love doesn't stop. No. And the work doesn't stop. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Well, that's when you find out if it's really love. Cause a lot of people, there's a spanish. The Puerto Rican say that I woke up, they just love you from the mouth. Um, it's not from the death of their heart. Uh, Paul's a great example of that. Uh, and so it's Peter, by the way, um, uh, when he writes the Timothy, he says, uh, when you come to visit me, bring my coat. I think this is the end of my journey and bring the scrolls I need to read. Uh, I'm from Paul's tribe over there. Uh, we can live on books, bring the scrolls, right. Bring and bring me John Mark, the same young man who is 16 years earlier. He said, I ain't traveling with him anymore. He's a punk. And I can't evangelize where people who are afraid you take him. I don't want him. 16 years later, he tells some of the, bring me John Mark, he's useful. And so he was willing to adjust his perception of one whom he had rejected. And that, that takes humility that's recognition. Uh, also he had to stand up to Peter when Peter's, um, you know, when Peter was kind of duplicitous, you know, he was, uh, he was one way with Gentiles. And another way when the Judaizers came and, and Paul saw that as a selling out on the most important part, I've had it just been because of, of food. Uh, maybe he wouldn't have made it a big deal, but he said, there's something that is non-negotiable. And there is something in the gospel that the churches must have a conflict around. And that is what is, what does it mean to be saved? And that's not negotiable. He says, if an angel should come with another gospel with, with, with the good news, that is not really good news, then let him be a cursed. So you gotta know when to fight and when to let go, there are things, you know, uh, Paul says to the Jews I'm Jew and to
Speaker 3:Romans I'm a roman, that sounds like Peter. And when you think about it, that's what Peter was doing. You know, when he was with the Gentiles, well, you know, he ain't, you let us, you know, pork chops, but when, when the Jews came well, you know,
Speaker 4:He has masses and crackers, you know, uh, and, uh, and you think that Paul was getting petty, but he wasn't. Because what he was saying is if you do this, they will force the Gentiles to be circumcised. And so they will be adding to salvation that the blood of Jesus is not sufficient, that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross is insufficient. That you also had to add the keeping of the law. And that's an aberration. That's not good news that, that that's blasphemy. And so he's challenging Peter, and, and here's the humility of Peter. Peter later writes that Paul is easily misunderstood, but he's right. And Peter took it on the chin. He could have said, Jesus put me in charge. You submit, he could have made it a power struggle. And Peter was of a higher rank, but we see the humility when have titles and it's not matched with the virtue of humility. It could be disastrous and much church hurt comes from leadership that is ego tripping and making decisions that control people's lives that are wrong. Totally wrong. I just want to, I know I take, my answers are forever. My wife says I talk too much, but I'll tell you it it's found in Luke. As I studied Luke almost every other day, I'm working on something on Luke and, and I, I that's the title of the sermon would be, but not so with you, but not so with you. And that's the first, um, four words in verse 26 of chapter, 22 of the gospel of Luke, the gospel of Luke, uh, chapter 22, verse 26, and reading from the English standard version. But not so with you. Now, let me go to, to the context, verse 24. So you can understand why I think that those four words are very important, but not so with you, everybody listening to me, repeat with me, but not. So with you now, let's go to the context. Verse 24, a dispute arose among the disciples, Christians fight, Christians offend each other, and they have dispute we're human beings. We're not finished. We were sanctified. We are being sanctified and we shall be sanctified. Okay? So this is a long process and it won't end until Jesus comes and changes us once and forever. So these disciples are walking with Jesus for three and a half years, and they're still fighting with each other. So the, you know, so if you got someone in the church that you don't get along with, welcome to the club, all right. So they said a dispute also arose among them as to which of them was to be regarded the greatest. Can you imagine that 12 guys fighting for one seat, that's a disaster. And then Jesus said to them, the Kings of the Gentiles exercise, Lordship over them. And those in authority over them are called benefactors. I don't know if you get that, but Jesus is doing an analysis on secular leadership. It's all about rank and the higher, the rank, the more influence. And those underneath have to see the guys in high rank as benefactors. But then he comes with these four words, but not. So with you, in other words, you don't run the church, like the Ford company, you run the, you don't run the church, like Merrill Lynch. You don't run the church like the United States. Congress. Yeah. Thank you. Five minutes. Somebody to, Oh, okay. And the Kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them and those in authority over them. Uh, Oh, they're five words, but not so with you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. You gotta be accurate. I failed math, all that, but eight. So that's the Bronx version, but not so with you rather let the greatest among you become the youngest and the leader, as one who serves for who is the greater one, who reclines at the table or one who serves, then he, then he establishes discipleship. This is what he says. Is it not the one who reclines at the table? Yeah. Yeah, that's it. No not, but I, the greatest one, the, I am the Lord of laws, the eventual King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the risen one, the conqueror, none greater than him, God, in the flesh. But I am among you as the one who serves, in other words, the world got it upside down. And so we see a lot of hurt in church because pastors and ministers, aerial leaders, and those in authority, they exercise authority as they do in the world. And Jesus said, but not so with you.
Speaker 2:Amen. Amen. And one thing we have to keep in mind that, um, pastors, elders, including deacons, leaderships are imperfect people. We're all striving for perfection, but we're not perfect people. So we have to keep that in mind. Um, we make mistakes because we're human beings and we're still on this earth and we will make mistakes. Um, the most important thing as leaders is to be able to recognize when we make mistakes and ask forgiveness, when we make them, um, let's look at the, um, some of the causes of hurt and offense. Um, the first one is gossip and that tends to occur anywhere. It can happen in the workplace and so forth. So we shouldn't think there's no gossip in church. Of course it can happen the same way. There are small cliques of people that get together and we have to be mindful of that, that we don't get so involved in little cliques inside the church. Um, if we was to look pro to Proverbs chapter 16, verse 28, it reads, a perverse person stirs up conflict and a gossip separates, close friends. So first of all, we have to remember we're servants of Christ. We shouldn't be gossiping. Does it happen? It does happen, but we shouldn't be gossiping. Um, we should keep in mind, we're servings of Christ. And if our language that comes out of our mouth is not so enlight, then that should not be coming out of our mouth. And we have to gauge, there's so many people that it's easy for them to open their mouth, but they don't think before they speak. And when you're in Christ, you have to be mindful of how you measure your words, especially because sometimes we're not all eloquent speakers and we're not all college educated, so we have to speak the way we can't speak. So for example, if I'm going to speak about something, I'm not going to pretend I'm eloquent. If I didn't go to college, I'm going to be mindful that I use the words that I know I can communicate. If I'm from the hood, then I'm going to keep it hood and be like your brother, you know, Christ loves you and keep it simple. But the point is, is that you speak, think before you speak
Speaker 4:Yeah. Slow to speech. Yeah, exactly. It's a good wise a proverb. And, and, and it comes from the epistle of James, you know, uh, I think that God gave us one tongue and two ears. So we should do double the amount of listening than we do speaking. And of course the other verse that, uh, is in Proverbs is, as with as much yakkity yak, there's surely sin. And, uh, no, I, I think it's one of the wall almost horrible sins. And I think every church has been afflicted with it. I, I don't think there's anything, you know, I wish I wish that evangelical Christians would just get, get so angry about gossip, uh, as they do about abortion or about homosexuality and all the same sex marriage. I think if we would, if we had that kind of animus about it, because it does more damage way more damage, because when you begin to it, this is the way it is. Jesus uses the analogy of the church of a body. It's only one body, only one body, many members, but one body. And what would you say, brother Darby, if you saw a man like I did, I was ministering in an institution who took his head and took the edge of the wall and banged his head until he removed about a third of his skull. Well, what would you say is wrong with that, man?
Speaker 2:You would think it would be something psychologically wrong with that.
Speaker 4:More than that, he's insane. He's insane. They had to have him in prison with a helmet on, because all he did was bang, bang, bang, and he ripped out his eye. He was blind in one eye, partly is the nose, all of his cheek. And over the, uh, the over the eyebrow bone, uh, was crushed in horrible. He looked like a monster, no one sane would do that. But that's what does, when we gossip about a brother or sister we're tearing in and destroying the body of Christ and it's insane, it is insane. It's interesting using
Speaker 2:Insane because there's certain a term using psychological terms. Um, what do you call something you do repeatedly?
Speaker 3:Well, that's Albert Einstein's definition of insanity
Speaker 2:And it continued feeling that and, um,
Speaker 3:Repeating the same mistake and hoping for a different outcome for an outcome.
Speaker 2:And, and we tend to do that. And what we tend to do is we forget that when we gossip, um, it affects the brother. And why would you want to cause that harm?
Speaker 4:I'll tell you why I have found in my experience is that people who lend themselves the gossip of very little people that have a very low self-esteem and the only way they can feel good about themselves is pointing at the faults of others. And they actually, Oh, did you see what happened when you're talking about other people? No. One's looking at you. So people who don't have a good self-esteem people who don't have a good sense of identity in God, people who don't understand what the body of Christ is, people who don't live, the word are given to this. You will find the gossipers are usually people who are hypocritical and they're hiding something. And the more they speak up others, the more they are hiding something in themselves.
Speaker 2:And they're also gaining power because here's the thing. If you notice most people who gossip, it's a power trip, because then people are focused on dump. They're giving attention to that person who spreading that gossip. So it's a power trip. And one thing I've noticed all these years that I've been serving the Lord is that it happens so easily in churches. Like for example, in, um, most, um, African-American churches and Latino churches, um, usually have a church van that transports people right, now All right.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And not here, get to church on your own, but show commitment where you could get here on your own, that shows commitment, right? Nobody gets you in a limo. Everybody gets, you're transporting their own legs. And I remember those days, but there were days, you know, to be, make it accessible, especially dedicated themselves. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Exactly. It's a ministry in itself. Now here's the thing. What I noticed started happening a couple of years back is that people will come out of the church and be praising the Lord for the message that came across from the pastor, whoever was preaching. But then as soon as they got into that transport van, it's like, they left the Holy sanctuary and they said, we're back in the world. Let's gossip instead, considering the van is a church extension because wherever the Lord is, that's that's where is the church? Meaning including yourselves. Then I shouldn't
Speaker 5:Be gossiping in the church van. If in fact, I should be speaking about the message and how great it was, what did you get out of the message? What did you get out of the message, but not be gossiping in the church van. And that goes to again, discipleship, because we have to remind people, you know, what you need to verify over and over again, whoever's preaching from the altar that they're preaching the word of God. And the only way to do that is to take notes and look back at the word.
Speaker 4:I, you know, I I'm beating on a dead horse, uh, people who are prone to gossiping, a very superficial and, uh, they'd have very little depth. And, um, but, but I would say this, uh, again, this is what James says, the most difficult member of the body to team and it's diabolical. The tongue is diabolical. They can light a forest on fire. Uh, again, uh, it's lack of understanding of the Bible. And so, uh, again, you know, I'll tell you the truth. I have a suspicion that the reason it's so prominent and in social circles and the churches are social organism, just like the club, like a bowling team, a baseball team, a softball team, you gather together every Tuesday, every Wednesday, whatever that day is. And you got a click, you go to the gym with certain guys and you talk about other guys, you talk about other people. It, that, that seems to be a, um, it's almost like a sport and, and some people actually enjoy it because it's a sport. You know, you can find out the dirt on somebody, you can find out the dirt on somebody until they find out third on you. And then all of a sudden you're being a spectator and watch the car crash. They're like, yo. Yeah. But I'll tell you why. I think, um, I think it, it doesn't get corrected it's because most everybody does it. And so for me to correct you, I have to like blindly overlook the fact that I do it too. And so what we have is a lot of uncorrected and discipleship is about correcting the things that are done wrong. And so I think it's one of those sins that so many people participate in that there isn't, there aren't enough people to correct them with a clean conscience.
Speaker 5:That's why the leaders, especially elders, deaconship. If you're in a position of correction, you really have to always look at yourself in a spiritual mirror. You need to self-analyze yourself on a continuous basis. If you're in a position of leadership and you affect the overall body, you need to continuously analyze, that's called
Speaker 4:Integrity. I mean, if you're going to call somebody on it and don't call you, don't call yourself, or you don't admit to it yourself. Well, I wasn't gossiping. I was just a, you know, I was just telling them to pray. Well, you could tell people to pray without getting into all the juicy, you know, and all that stuff. So there, there was a little bit of a power trip, you know, I was able to get this information. Uh, so those are, those are the things that lead to a lot of hurt. And yes, there are probably a lot of people who are not in church today because of gossip. They probably are. And it shouldn't, you know, I, I think we could do a whole program. Maybe we should bring some gossip.
Speaker 5:The other issue that occurs is through leadership when leaders are incessant insensitive to parishioners needs or mistreat others in the church.
Speaker 4:I, as you know, I had mentioned that one of the biggest ones is, you know, you, you, you get on a plane, you get on a plane, right? You get on a, on a jet to go to, let's say, you go on Florida and you get on there. You don't know the pilot from anywhere you're depending on the label, the label that says United airlines, whatever that brand is telling you, that that guy took so many hours of flying. He has a license and he's flying and you trust your life. And that whole system of validation, because they would not let someone who rides a tricycle fly a plane. Right? Uh, there are so many people who, who are not called. They called themselves. Yes. And so when you have pastors who have not been trained, um, like the new, I was talking about it last night in a Bible study, uh, almost all Bible colleges are doing this. They're requiring everyone to take a personality test. So if you want to study to be a minister, you have to know who you are. What are your weaknesses, especially your weaknesses. What areas are you strong? But what areas do you lack and challenge? Why? Because if you're not self-aware, um, you can deceive yourself very well, very easily. And there's no worst deception than self-deception. Um, that's that, that, along with pride is the sin of Satan. He'd had no insight as to who he was. He was a puny little angelic figure next to the almighty God. So he had a poor view of himself. You had an exaggerated or minuscule cause sometimes they're both, they're just two sides of the same coin, superiority, complex inferiority complex. Uh, you know, I want to, I want to be like, God, I want that. And so when you have that kind of, of motor in your drive, uh, then you lead by humiliating others by showing how strong you are by showing how powerful you are. And I just read the passage. That's how the Gentile canes lead, um, in Luke 22, but not so with you. So Jesus makes it very clear. Don't follow that style of leadership. The only style of leadership you should follow is the guy who washed your feet. When you came into the upper room,
Speaker 6:He led with
Speaker 4:A towel and a bowl filled with water and he cleaned stinky feet. Um, that is a role model of leadership. So, uh, so there, there that's one thing. And then what happens when people who are not schooled, that they don't go, they don't get trained. They're not mentored, but you know, they they're gifted. That's the problem. Uh, the charismatic gifts are just that gifts. Fruit is different from gift. A gift is like a light bulb on a Christmas tree. You put it on there, doesn't come from the tree it's placed on the tree. And for Christmas it looks beautiful. And then after Christmas, you put it away. Now an Apple tree to produce an Apple might take years and years and years of root, healthy, lots of sun, water and cared for. And then it begins to produce, uh, a bud, a flower and eventually a fruit. It takes time. If you pick it before time, it's not edible. If you wait too long, a bunch of worms in your mouth. So everything is precise. And what we're talking about is good, shepherding good leadership, a good, uh, apostolic leader, a good prophetic leader, a good evangelistic leader, a good pastoral leader, a good teaching leader must be mature, emotionally healthy, and filled with the fruit of the spirit. Now the fruit of the spirit is nothing. Sensational, love, joy, peace, you know, meekness, uh, uh, kindness. Uh, goodness. Self-control nobody wants to talk about that one. Right? Okay. Uh, faithfulness. So we don't talk about raising the dead healing. You know, I preach then 3000 got saved. Uh, you know, I'm the God's man of faith and power. And so when you rule and you govern with sensationalism, you tend to look down on those who are your sheep as if they are your, your beneficiaries, rather than you being equal. Is he, pastors are sheep too. There's only one shepherd and that's the chief shepherd. And he says, it's his not
Speaker 3:Mine.
Speaker 5:And that's sadly what ends up occurring with a lot of pastors is that they forget they're the under shepherd. Um, and sadly also for the parishioners, they also, if a person is very charismatic, they keep their eyes on the person who's speaking, but they're not looking above that. It's comes from the Lord. Sure. That person may speak wonderfully preach wonderfully, but it comes from the Lord. Don't, don't give so much credit to the person, keep your eyes on Christ. And we tend to forget that. And then we're just following people. Okay. We'll just find we're a fan of this person, but you're not, you're not a follower of Christ because you're just following that person whoever's preaching from upfront. Right.
Speaker 3:And you know, it's a fine balance because everybody wants to be appreciated, right? I mean, we're in pastors appreciation month, by the way, you know, and I'm not even celebrating it this year because, uh, the pandemic, you know, everybody's a pastor now, you know, I'm telling everybody, you preach it, you do the visitations, you go out and get out checks. I don't have time to breathe, but, um, but, uh, there's nothing wrong, right? Like I was preaching in the 50th anniversary of love, gospel assembly this past Saturday, it was a church that I was ordained in and they were honoring the founder and Bishop who had passed away. And so I figured since I knew him well from even before he got saved, who better to speak and I spoke and a sister who I didn't recognize because now you can't recognize people. Cause I, by the way, mass, you know, and I, and you know, you know, we age and we change. And she came out to me and says, you know, I got saved, you know, through your ministry. And I'm like, I don't even know who's talking to me. And then she lowered and Oh my God, I don't remember what she got saying. I do remember her. She said, I was sitting right up there. And you said, someone here has a void in their heart. There's an emptiness in their heart and they need to get it, come on now. And she came down. That's when she got saved, I'm telling you, that's what I said, because that's what she told me. I said, I don't remember saying that. So I'm getting all this credit for leading her to the Lord when it was the Holy spirit. I can't even remember saying that. So I, you know, when, when people, when people appreciate you, you thank them. You thank them because it's kindness. And it means a lot to them that God used you. So, you know, I don't know. It wasn't me, you know, pseudo humility. I said, that's really nice. It reminds me that I should always be sensitive to the Holy spirit. Cause I, I don't even remember saying that, you know, I don't even remember saying that, but ego, I mean, we're talking about not being trained as being one of the reasons why leaders hurt. The other part is that is dangerous.
Speaker 4:Uh, as a matter of fact, uh, I can't remember his name right now. It's uh, it's, it's, it's used now in seminary for pastoral theology. It's called the dangerous calling. Do you know the, the author on it? Uh, he's a guy with a weird mustache. I know him, but I can't remember his name, but it's a, it is a dangerous calling because what did Paul say? He says every day I buffet my body. Why I keep it under control? Why? Because after preaching and doing so much for the Lord, In the end, I don't want to be disqualified. And so he lived with not a terror, but with a very real and definite concern that he needed to be close to the Lord every step of the way, right through the end, because he knew, uh, thank you, my friend. Oh yes. Paul David Tripp, Paul David Tripp. Tremendous a scary book. Let me tell you, it's not an easy book to read. He's a counselor to pastors and he really deals with especially marriage because there's one area where pastors really, really get hit hard is in their marriage. Uh, first of all, pastoring is an abnormal. It's not, it's not a nine to five. And, uh, and if you have children, it's, you know, and it's not always with good pay and, uh, not always with good benefits and all that stuff that, that we kind of take for granted in this society because the rest of the world is like, we're, we're millionaires to the rest of the world. So, um, so you know, the ego gets in the way again, diabolical Satan said, I, I will, I will, I will. And that's the, what they call it. The sin of angels. I Oregon's pride. And so lack of preparation, people who call themselves pastors and give themselves titles and they had never been trained. And if they've been trained, they've been trained by other abusers. And so, uh, I have like four or five pastors. I've lost two of them, uh, in the last couple of years that I consider part of my advisory. These are people that I can call and say, uh, it's been rough this week. I'm having problems with one of my elders. I'm having problems with a brother that loves so much, but I put them in leadership and he's not getting it. And if I take them out, I think I'll lose him. And I'm afraid of losing because I have sentiment, but you don't put people in leadership because of sentiment. You put them because of calling. So, you know, you, you can't talk to anybody else in the congregation, right? Because the guy said, so you have to have people you can go to,
Speaker 2:You have to have a good support system. First of all, especially as a pastor. Um, what I've come to realize is that sometimes pastors get so caught up in the work and this will be a topic for another time. So caught up in the
Speaker 5:Work. They don't have a support system. They're so concerned about not being in the temple, because if they're not in the temple, the people won't be in the temple. So therefore they don't take a vacation and they're not taking care of themselves spiritually. They're not leaning on anyone spiritually because they should be leaning on other pastors. They trust to pray with each other to help
Speaker 4:You sound like you've been talking to my wife, you know, where this comes from.[inaudible]
Speaker 5:When you're called into pastorship it, isn't just you it's you and your spouse. Absolutely. And your family. So you have to prepare, like, if you have kids, you have to prepare your kids. Look, this is what the Lord is calling me to do. Be aware that these are the challenges that are going to come, including cause who does the enemy attack through your family?
Speaker 4:Oh, that's your weakest link. I mean, you know, the people you love are the ones who can hurt you the most.
Speaker 5:And that also happens in the church because as a pastor, I'm sure there's some people you greatly love because it happens more than others. And that's how the enemy is going to use that person who loves so greatly that if you build that trust so much upon that person, the enemy can use that person to attack you. Yeah. And that's why, because here's the thing you could be at home and know you're prayed up, but you don't know if that person is at home and prayed up, you know, and that's why you need a good support system. I in sharpens iron, we need to have, so that we could depend on that are trustworthy enough that I could say, um, brother, I'm going to say brother, Mitch, yo, this is my situation I'm going through. Can you pray with me about this situation? You know, so these are things that we need to do and do always spiritual self evaluation.
Speaker 4:I think that's very important. Uh, brother Darby, you hit the nail on the head, uh, w w one of the things that I, I find also, because when I went to seminary, uh, you know, I studied with people who are, I was, uh, in an M div masters of divinity program, which I didn't finish at that time. I, I, I, I went for another program, but, uh, I was, uh, doing a masters of divinity and the first seminary ever in the United States, it's a reform seminary in New Jersey right next to Rutgers. And we we'd have fellowship, you know, and about twenty-five 30 men and women, mostly men and in the class. And they were all either pastors or pastors in training, uh, and so on and so forth from high denominational church. Right. Because, you know, Pentecostal like me, uh, what's he doing, going to a reform seminary, you know? Uh, but I had a friend there and he got me in and usually that's what happens. Right. Uh, and, and so, um, they were all talking about the hike and salary that they were going to get once they finish their masters of divinity, because in these high traditional, I won't mention the denominations, but you know which ones they are, the high Protestant denominational, the, the, the salary for a pastor without an M div. And that's usually because you can't find one, or you can't afford one, um, is much lower once you have an M div it's, you know, back then that was a long time ago was about 50 right now will be near a hundred thousand or higher because the master's of divinity is a 90 credit. This is, you know, most, most graduate masters are 36 to 40 credits. This is a double master. Right. And, um, and so that's a lot of money that you owed the school. And so you're looking to get a pastorate that will give you a salary of a hundred thousand or more today, so that you could pay you back and live. Well, that reminds me of a parable that Jesus Gaye, where he said there were shepherds and there were walls. And then when the wolves came, those shepherds were hirelings. They were pastors, not by vocation, which is another word for calling. They didn't hear the voice of God. They were hired when the Wolf or the bear or the lion comes. They're not ready to untangle themselves. They're not David. All right. So what do they do? I ain't going to lose my life for a few sheep. They jump and they run. Then Jesus says, but the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. And so in many ministries and why pastors hurt people because their hirelings, they're not passed us by calling. They are passed us by salary. And that, you know, is a sad Testament to the state of the church, at least in America.
Speaker 2:Okay. Um, let's go to the next, uh, which is rejection. Um, sometimes we don't feel we belong in churches and that's where church hurt comes in. And I could see examples of that. Like for example, someone can come into church and when they make a call and they'll go up to the alter and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, but they just don't fit in because the people are not welcoming that person as well as they should have. So, for example, sometimes let's be honest. We're a society here in the United States that everything is visual. So if the person doesn't look visually appealing, like let's say a homeless person comes in. And in that weakest moment, they give themselves to the Lord. Sometimes people don't find it visually appealing. So they won't welcome that person, as well as someone who comes in in,
Speaker 5:And they'll hug that person. But the homeless person, they won't hug. And they won't maybe even address, you know, God bless you. Welcome to the Lord. They, they won't say those things. And the person may sit in there for a period of time, but they never truly were welcome. Like, for example, if they sit somewhere in a Pew, no one comes up to him and says, good morning, God bless you. Or when the service is over, God bless you. Um, do you need anything? Are you good? No one speaks to the person gets involved with the person. So the person never finds a sense of belonging. And remember, most people come to Christ because they want a sense of belonging because they feel lonely. So we need to, for example, that could this arm, a person, you being welcoming, that's what you have a good, you need a good ushers group. For example, the violence that occurred. And the Carolinas when, um, a man went into a church, aren't one of the things that almost, he stated this to law enforcement, if people would have welcomed me with open arms, I would have had second thoughts of doing this. And one person did come up to him and hugged him and said, God bless you welcome to so-and-so church. But it won't people would have done that. That would have disarmed him. And he would have felt welcome. And he would have felt like he shouldn't have attacked the church. And that's why we have to be more loving when people come in.
Speaker 3:Well, that that's a real complicated one. He was insane. So I don't know if anything would have worked, but I got, I got your drift. And you know, who got your drift, James? He opens up the Bible. He opens up the letter saying that, you know, someone comes in hungry, not well dressed, probably the, you know, the, the real deal is what does he smell? Good enough. And let me tell you, when you hug someone with a stench of urine or feces on them and you hold them and you cry with them, then you know, God's all over you. Yeah. Because the olfactory repugnant, it's, it's instinctive, when something smells really bad, you can't help yourself. You go like that. You shake and you pull away. Um, it just does that. So if you have that kind of self-control, then you really love the Lord, and there's no doubt about it. But, um, yeah, it's obviously, uh, what you're talking about is church culture and, and every church has its culture. The church that I pass that has a culture, um, very rarely do. Um, people come in with suits and ties. I think the only one where's the ties me, uh that's because I liked ties. I just liked them, you know? Cause you could wear the same shirt, but a different tag. Is it a different look? You can wear the same suit, but a different tire gives it a different look. And, and of course it, I sweat a lot even in the winter. So if I wear a tie, don't even need a scarf. So there's a lot of practical reasons for it. But the great majority of people come in here, uh, some even with shorts, uh, our youth too, and we're baseball caps and, and uh, uh, you know, so th every church has this culture and in that culture, there are some things that they're accustomed to. So if you go to, um, a church let's say in, uh, uh, Greenwich, Connecticut, you know, uh, where the average income is at least six to seven figures and a homeless person goes in there. Well, it's out of place because they don't have it around them, you know, but if you have a church in Crotona, uh, Hunt's point, it wouldn't be so shocking. Wouldn't so there's something, but there's a great book, a great book called in his steps. And it's a true story written by Sheldon, pick it up, tremendous testimonies, short little book, you know, uh, it's called in his steps. And it's from Peter. It's really about discipleship, about following in his steps. And it was a small church in the past, though. It was on the pulpit. And just what you just described, a kind of a homeless guy, a guy who was not in a good looking, he looked really, you know, like, like he had been beaten by the world and people didn't know what to do with them. And then suddenly the pastor realizes that God was giving the church a lesson that the sermon was the man who walked in and what would Jesus do? And that became a book. What would Jesus do? And, and in the past that led the church into let's respond to this man as Jesus would. And so they bought him clothes and all that stuff. And it's a classic, it's a classic Christian book or from way back, that's it and his steps. Okay. So I, another pastor, and this, this, you might see it in the internet. Cause I saw it a few years ago. This guy dressed as in homeless guy, I did, I did. Okay. And he was the guest speaker. He wasn't a PA you know, he was the guest speaker. I think he was a guest speaker or he was the pastor and, and, uh, and they were expecting somebody to come and preach. I don't know. And here he comes in really, you know, he had a fake beard, but dirty, really stinky and, uh, torn clothes and make shoes, one, no socks and really, really a mess. And people didn't know what to do with them. He was going to the front, the usher stopped him. They gave him a seat in the back, you know, they didn't throw them out, but they gave him a seat in the back. You know, he was heading to the front and something of that nature, if I recall. And then, uh, they said, uh, we're expecting a guest speaker, but I don't know if he's here yet. And he gets up. And, uh, and then as he's walking, he says, I'm the guest speaker. And he takes his beard off. And then he preaches about the one young girl who welcomed them and how everybody else didn't and how he was walking to the front. And he was given a seat in the back and my God is there conviction there? Right. So yes, you're right. Rejection. And you know, I mean, the Beatles wrote a song about that. Not so much about rejection. Oh, he's showing you, he's showing you that. Um, the, uh, uh, do you remember the song Eleanor Rigby? I think it might've been John Lennon. I'm not sure if it was Paul McCartney and John Lennon. I think it might've been John Lennon who wrote a great song by the Beatles is Eleanor Rigby. I, uh, uh, and then there's a line that says, father McKenzie preaching the sermon that nobody here, all the lonely people living in the world, this is a woman who went to the Episcopal Anglican church sat in the middle somewhere. No one said hello to her father. McKenzie went along with his long sermon and he finished, she got up and left and nobody knew that she was lonely. And it was John Lennon's criticism of the organized institutionalized church that we are, uh, that religion is leaving people empty, you know? And he was kind of prophetic in that. You know, I know John Lennon, uh, did a lot of crazy things, you know, but these guys had insight. And when they wrote songs, they wrote songs that, that have a powerful meaning. And it's really a criticism to the church of England. And you know, that the church of England has, uh, you know, dropped in and leave some, I mean, not leaps and bounds all the way down in terms of church attendance. Now, churches in England and in Europe and France are no longer churches. Now they're museums because they're beautifully built. And so the nation has adopted them as tourist sites, which is a shame. Well, you know, if there's, if, if everybody there is dead, you might as well have Muslims.
Speaker 2:It's basically a tomb to the faith is not robbed by believers in Christ. But those faithful who were not faithful because basically they were spectators. Yeah. That's all,
Speaker 3:That's basically it. And there's a lot of spectators in the American church too. But in terms of w we're getting off topic, the topic was rejection. Uh, the apostle Paul and the new Testament advises us and tells us in Colossians, he says, accept one another as Christ accepted you. So that's the, that's the litmus test. How do you know how to treat people very simply the way Jesus treated you? And he took you when you were his enemy, he died for you when you didn't believe in him. And he followed you and brought you to himself. You didn't look for him. He looked for you. And so that's, we need, again, it always goes back to these things that are hurting. The church's reputation of the world is because we're not living the gospel. We're not making disciples. We're making spectators and spectators are entertained by an eloquent preacher or a fantastic choir, or a great drama group, or great musicians, and some churches with the smoke and mirrors and all that stuff. It's just like a rock concert. And, you know, I, I don't want to be too critical, but what I'm saying is, if all of that can get a big crowd in and you stopped doing that and no crowds come in, then that's all you got is a crowd. You're not really bringing people to the Lord. And so there's a lot of, lot of, lot of miss opportunities in the world. And these things do hurt. So rejection is absolutely, it's one of the most powerful, uh, instruments that the enemy has to keep people from church sometimes. You know, uh, I remember because I grew up in Pentecost and in my early years, but the Pentecostal faith, not so much now, but back then was very legalistic. Oh gosh, you know, you couldn't even come into church unless you're, you looked a certain way. And especially in the, in the ethnic Pentecostal churches, I won't, I won't pick on any particular group, but the ethnic Pentecostal churches, cause their pastors had less of a chance to go to Bible college and so on and so forth. So they just, basically, they will wild when they were weren't served. So they went the opposite, you know, and, uh, strict about hair, uh, strict about beers. Uh, one denomination don't even allow rings, not even wedding rings, forget about, you know, any extra stuff. And women couldn't have earrings, anything. And the hair had to be below their shoulders and their skirts have to be below their knees and they shouldn't shave their legs. You know? So the women looked like, you know, I, I didn't, you know what I'm saying? So when I was growing up in that, um, it seemed like there was so much rejection that I, I don't know how people made it. Obviously they made it because they adopted to that. And many did, I can't say they didn't because you know, that church is still alive. Um, but it also created a lot of backsliders and it also pushed the next generation away from church. And so they began to, you know, not have youth anymore. As soon as the adolescent was able to say, I'm not going to church or I'm moving out, they didn't follow through. And I think it was Mitch when we were teaching and we have our brother Mitch here. Yeah. You sitting there. Um, well he was teaching on apologetics. He gave us statistics about, about how many young people, uh, who grew up in church are no longer in church, especially when they go, yeah, you can speak seven out of 10, seven out of 10 leave church and don't come back. So that's 70%, 70% that that's disastrous. When you have, when you have about 16 to 17 years to disciple them, that's disastrous, that's disastrous. And, uh, I thank God, you know, no kudos to me, probably more to their mom, but all of my children serve the Lord and you see, my son is here today because he wanted to help me out, you know? And, uh, he finished one class on the drive down. Yeah. Thank God for digital devices. And uh, yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. I got to relax. I got to get closer to the mic. Um, anyway, uh, rejection. It, I mean, when, when, when you, when you have a void in your heart and when you come into the church and you get rejected, that's what the devil was. Yeah. Now
Speaker 2:We're going to go over these last two that cause um, church hurt, which is judgment. When another member forms opinions about you and we have false teachings, which that's something we should always be careful with. If you truly a believer in Christ. Again, if you hear someone preaching, you should be taking notes and comparing with the Holy word of God. We shouldn't just rely on whatever someone preaches up front to be. God sent, verify, verify, verify. And that goes with teaching as well. Some people who have not walked into church and have been getting word from TV preachers, verify, verify, verify, make sure these people are preaching truly the word of God, but we're not here just to talk about what causes churches would also hear about solutions because I'm a firm believer not to introduce problems, but introduce solutions. And let's look at solutions to church hurt. What can we do to heal the hurt as well as avoid offending people? And the first thing is forgiveness. If you're someone who has been church hurt, you have to give it to God. So you can forgive. You have to cast that burden onto the Lord, pray over that person who caused that church hurt to you. And once you present that and you put it in the Lord's hands, let it go. Don't keep dwelling on it. There's some people who love picking at scabs. I'll know as a kid, when you got a scar and I that scab starts itching, and you start picking at it. It's to some people. It feels good when you're picking at the scab, but don't pick at emotional scabs. Let it go, let it heal. So we have to learn to forgive. If we was to look at Luke chapter 17, verse four, it says, even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times, come back to you saying, I repent. You must forgive them. Yeah. And we have
Speaker 7:To be able to forgive. I, I would say that,
Speaker 3:You know, you, you bring it number one. And it's the hardest thing to do, right? When you're, when you've been the victim of a hurt, uh, really smart strategy of the enemy to get people away is the inability to forgive. Very hard to do. I believe it's a miracle. I think that when people are able to forgive, uh, something supernatural is taking place. Absolutely. When I think about solutions, um, uh, for church hurt. Yeah. But you have to create an environment for, um, for forgiveness. And one is teaching what true forgiveness is. As some people feel like forgiveness is forgetting and you have to be brainless to forget, or how about some kind of limited Alzheimer's you don't really have to forget. Uh, as a matter of fact, some things you shouldn't forget because you want, you want to learn to forgive us to pardon, but give us to part in that means you do not demand payment. That's all it is. So forgiveness. We make forgiveness so complicated. And we think that forgiveness is healing. No forgiveness is the first step towards healing. Healing is time. And that's what causes a scab. And eventually, but the first thing we have to do is acknowledge that we're bleeding and stop it. And so, uh, so how do you keep it from bleeding? You, you've got to have an experience with the Lord, Jesus Christ. And you have to be forgiven because if I'm forgiven and God accepts me after I have violated his laws and treated him like he didn't exist. And yet he loves me. So then how can I refrain from forgiving someone else? When I have been the recipient of so much love, forgiveness and grace. So you have to experience what it is to be guilty. You have to experience what it is to repent. You have to experience to re realize how much you have hurt God with your previous attitude of living without him. And when you have been forgiven. Yeah. When you have been forgiven, this is what, when Simon, the Pharisee criticized Jesus because this woman from the street came in and anointed him and poured oil over him. Uh, just before he's going to be arrested to be crucified as if the spirit in her knew that she was preparing him for his burial. And Jesus makes that acknowledgement by the way, uh, he says everywhere for the rest of, for the rest of history, we will mention that woman not knowing her name, why, and, and, and he criticized. He was criticized by Simon. He says, you know, if you're a true prophet, how do you let this woman touch you? And Judas is complaining about how much value this ointment, you know, we could have given to the poor and all that stuff. But Jesus says he who has been forgiven much, loves much. So there's a direct correlation between forgiveness and your ability to love when you don't forgive. The one you're hurting is you, because your inability to forgive does not allow you to increase your ability to love. And if you really want to be loved, you got to give love. Yeah. And if you can't give love, because this thing has hurt you so much, that you're afraid of people, then you desperately need to forgive because the only one you're hurting is you, the one who hurts you is probably in Suzanne, Arizona, never thinking about you one day of their life while you're still caring,
Speaker 2:Maybe getting skinny, cause you don't want to eat cause you're hurting emotionally or you're overeating cause you hurting emotionally. So you know, it could go either way, but we're causing hurt to ourselves. Absolutely. So, um, the other way to deal with church hurt is to confront. If you have an issue with someone you have to address it. Yeah. And um, one of the ways, um, if we was to look at Matthew chapter 18, verses 15 through 17, it says if your brother or sister sins go and point out their fault just between the two of you, if they listened to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along. So that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If they still refuse to listen, tell to the church, and if they refuse to listen, even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. And
Speaker 3:Yeah, these are Jesus's instructions. Why don't we practice this? Because people are afraid of confrontation. Uh, people are afraid of confrontation because we have anger issues and we're a violent society. And, and I don't just mean punching people are very violent with their looks and with their mouth. And you know, if I know that someone's just going to be explosive, you know, I I'm going to avoid that. So we have a lot of, uh, avoidance and even pastors are afraid, but we really do need is to train our leaders on conflict resolution. And, and that's something that you would need to learn. You know, only one person can talk at a time. You have to, clearly when you're an arbiter and many times I've done this as a pastor, when you're an arbiter, you set the rules, you say, one's going to talk, I'm going to give you a chance to respond. Then you talk or a sound spawn, and then let's go to the word. What would God have us to do? We pray before we pray at the end, when, when, when we agree to, um, forgive and be restored, then we make a commitment before a witness, which is the pastor and, and or a leader because it shouldn't be all on the pastor. Um, small churches, usually the pastor in larger churches, you have leaders who should all be trained in conflict resolution. Um, and, and uh, if not, if we're not trained in conflict resolution, then you have unresolved conflicts and unresolved conflicts, unresolved conflicts, it's Moses killing the Egyptian and burying him, but he left his feet out. And the next day, now this is, this is just, you know, this is, this is fiction, but it's the illustration because what he did was visible to his own brothers when his own brothers and I'm talking about Jews, uh, they were fighting with each other and Moses tells them, Hey, I could, you know what? The Egyptians have beaten you. And then you guys are gonna beat each other up. And they said to him, look, are you, you beat it in the, and the other day and you buried him. And we saw you. And when I realized that he became a fugitive. So when you don't resolve your conflicts, you end up being a 40 year fugitive. And, and for 40 years that chased him. And when God calls him his first excuses,
Speaker 1:But I'm wanting for murder and you're calling me to go,
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's where I'm calling you. So I'm very much, and it happens that God will call you to the very place where your wound took place. Why does God do
Speaker 1:That? Well,
Speaker 3:There may still be some venom there, unresolved conflicts turn into cancer and cancer kills. So, um, that, that, that, that's just, you know, it's, it's about integrity and that God doesn't, um, he doesn't just sly over those things. He wants, you healed
Speaker 2:Exactly. He doesn't cover the wound. It, you can't just put a bandaid over a wound. You have to treat it. Um, if a wound is constantly, um, being exposed to the elements and it causes infection, you have to treat the infection.
Speaker 3:When a fly lands on it, he lays them eggs there and forget it. You're going to end up with Mercer or leprosy. I know. Yeah,
Speaker 1:It's it, it
Speaker 3:Really is. Um, God wants and loves genuine authenticity. And when this hypocrisy and, and much of the unresolved conflicts then results in hypocrisy, because you can say, well, I don't get along with that brother because he's in the men's ministry. So I'm going to join the youth ministry and we're in the same church, but we never
Speaker 4:Have to run into each other. Cause when, so you're keeping the peace, that's a lie and we don't get, we don't get over on God. God is genuine. He's authentic. He says, if you go to the altar, which is to worship, and you remember that you have ought against your brother because he offended. You leave your gift there. In other words, don't even worship me until you fix it. Worship is not even possible until you fix it. Which
Speaker 2:Can I touch on? Now that you brought that up, there are people who take communion and still have not forgiven the person they have issue with. If you have issues with someone you shouldn't even be taking commune yet to you deal with that issue.
Speaker 4:Well, well, that's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it Brother darby i s because communion is so important. And because communion is the celebration of your forgiveness, you should forgive quickly. You shouldn't even wait. You should cancel that debt right away. Y eah. And that's the way I prefer to put it because to say, Oh yeah, I know where you're leading to the Bible says that some are sick and some die prematurely. U h, a nd, and, and one way of interpreting that is not that God is punishing you, but your own lack of forgiveness makes you sick. That's been proven that a b itter person dies faster of cancer than a jovial person that a b itter person dies fast o f heart disease. Then this was proven by a medical doctor who had a heart attack. And he, he healed himself back by watching comedies and laughing all day. And, and what he found was what the proverb says. Laughter is like medicine to the bone. Okay? Joy is healing. And so it's you take communion. You're hypocritically celebrating the God, forgives all sins. He forgave yours, but you'll withholding forgiveness from somebody else. It's got to do damage to you. It brings judgment to you. It makes you sick. And being a hypocrite is a dangerous thing that Jesus said, if your righteousness does not exceed that of the Pharisees, like they say in Spanish, not every type of quinoa don't even get dressed cause you ain't going.
Speaker 2:And that's very important for people who are leaders or leaders of ministry models. If you're called to ministry and it doesn't have to be just pastorship, just down the line ministry, you have to be mindful that if you carry that burden and you're not forgiving someone, it's going to affect your ministry and it's going to affect everyone you speak to because you're carrying that burden on your shoulders. Constantly. Every time you deal with people who you trying to bring to Christ. Absolutely. I'll tell
Speaker 4:You, uh, I've, I've cultivated this in my life. It's a discipline and disciplines that don't come overnight. It takes work. I have worked in my life so that I forgive quickly. I think Paul gives us a timeline. He says, don't let the sun go down on your rap. Um, sundown is 12 hours. I'm sunup to sundown is 12 hours. I think basically, you know, depending on the time of the year, right? But basically if you don't solve a conflict within 12 hours, it stops being a conflict and it becomes poison. And the Bible says in the book of Hebrews, that bitterness bitterness was just what, what happens when you don't forgive your heart becomes bitter bitterness, hardens the heart and makes it impossible for grace to come in. It's a very dangerous thing to Harbor grudges. That's why in first Corinthians 13 love believes all things, forgives all things that was all things. And the greatest of these is love. So it does not hold grudges. It does not hold grudges. This it's selfish, but it's a good selfishness. I forgive quickly. Cause I, you know, I got arthritis and I got all these other things. That's enough pain. I don't need any extra. So if Mitch, you know, gets a little huffy with puffy with me, I'm going to forgive him quickly. First of all, he's much bigger than me. I bet he sits out me. I'm crushed. No, I think we crushed each other. Right? But, but the, the deal is this life is so much better when you do it quickly, but we hold onto grudges. Why? Because we want revenge and, and revenge belongs to God. That's none of your business. So, you know, that's why all this violence in the street, it's crazy stuff because all it does. And Jesus said it, he who lives by the sword will die by the sword. So if a cop kills you and you kill a cop, what are we going to have? Craziness. You overcome evil by doing good. So the best thing you could do is forgive, but give quickly and forget completely. Who are you? Blessing? Who are you benefiting yourself? Amen. Amen. It's it's self-preservation
Speaker 2:And the other thing we have to keep in mind about being patient, because now when we present it to the Lord, the issue at hand, we have to be patient enough to let the Lord deal with it. Sometimes as human beings, we're not patient. Um, if we don't see the Lord dealing with it, or sometimes we may want the Lord deal with it in ways that remember, we're not God, we may pray and be like, God, I want you to strike
Speaker 5:This person down. Who are you to ask God to strike this person down? If you have issues with,
Speaker 3:Well, you're going to have issues with your wife because you probably want him to strike your mother-in-law. You know? So it's crazy. I'm just, I'm kidding. But no, you know how the mother-in-law jokes. You want God to get this person out of your marriage real quick. It could be the father-in-law or whoever the annoys. Again, you know, I have a friend who said that every Christian has four enemies. And I said, I ain't know, the Bible speaks of three enemies. You know, the world, the flesh and the devil he says, and the Christian, I said, why you say Christian, nobody gets on my nerves. Like my brothers and sisters, this was a loner. He could do anything alone. And if he had to do a floor, everybody get out of the floor, don't get in my way. And uh, and it's true. Uh, but, but, um, as, as a brother Mitch here, he, he, he has, uh, a Facebook page with men. I think it's is it, uh, iron sharpens, iron? Uh, yeah, it's on, I tell people when they tell me I need prayer because there's this guy at the job, man. He gets on my nerves and I, I need another job. I said, I don't think you need another job. I think you need to understand that that's your best friend and it wasn't bad. How could you call him my best friend? This guy's cursing me out. He's reporting me by this is your best friend, because he's going to lead you to your knees and you're going to so close to Jesus. You're going to love him. Jesus has brought you an enemy. He's identified himself as your enemy. And then he tells you to love him. It's your turn. Everybody has an issue in their life where someone comes to make your life miserable and you don't have no option, but to love them,
Speaker 5:It's constant practice because that's not going to be the first person. It's not going to be the last. Yeah. Um, one of the things I learned from my wife is that, um, to pray for those to be blessed, to be moved out of the position where you're at and deal with that. Yeah. I would like to say, like I had a supervisor years ago who was getting on my nerves and the reason that he kept doing it is because we all started out together. So he knew what buttons to push. And I don't know why he was being annoyed, but he was, and the Lord put him there for a reason. And it's to test my patience. Cause before I serve the Lord, I would just clock out and punch the person out and be like, come on, let's go outside. I can't do that in the Lord anymore. So I have to be like treating this person for his title. Not that he deserved that title, but treat him because of his title. So he was a supervisor. So I have to treat them as such, but that doesn't mean I take everything. He gives me. So if the person's verbally assaultive to me, I cannot continue accepting that. I have to let them know, confront them. Yo, that's an issue for me. Yeah. It's unprofessional. You need to curb that verbal assault language. But my wife said, pray that he get promoted to another position. I was like what? She said, yes, pray possesses the Lord that he gets another position. And I did that for a good six months. Yeah. And it was hard for me to do because first of all, it's about submission. Now I have to submit to the Lord and say, yeah, Lord, I want, you know, I have to really mean that for it to happen. And when it finally did, I was like, damn, he got getting more money please. Out of my life. Please give me more money, but he's out of money, but he's getting more money for being for better words, a bum. I have to accept it. But my wife was right. You know, he's out of my life. He's somebody else's headache. I don't have to deal with him anymore. And then I just forgive and forget and move on. Doesn't mean my interactions stop with him. Eventually I did have to interact with him, but they're minimized. And it's the same way inside the body of Christ as well, outside the body of Christ. Meaning when you deal with people who don't serve the Lord, you just have to present it to the Lord and let it go. Yeah. And that's hard to do, but it's part of submission. And that's the, one of the hardest things for human beings to do is to submit. And it's a daily process. It's like going to the gym. When you go to the gym, you're stressing your muscles the same way. When you get on your knees and you submit into prayer, your submission, it's painful. I mean, there's some people I remember in the old Latino churches, they used to say, you can tell a person who's been praying a lot because they have camel knees. And that's the person you want to go to when you need prayer, they're always on their knees, but that's painful. You know, nowadays you see people come out with a pillow when they getting ready to pray it, throw it down. But back in the days, he wasn't like that. Whatever hard surface he was, you would kneel down on it. You know, now we come prepared with our little pillows. We got knee pads. We'll put them on. But true submission. When you come in, submit your body fully to the Lord and say, I want this burden taken away and not taken away. Help me deal with this burden. And man, cause that's the thing too, to have effective prayer. It's a dialogue with the Lord and it's a back and forth because you can pray all you want. But if you don't give time for the Lord to speak to you I'd accept what he says because that's the other thing. Because when one day I want to do a podcast or a preaching on, on discernment because we are quick to make moves without asking God, if that's the move we're supposed to make, right? Like for example, I love Florida. I wanted to move to Florida, but I didn't move there because the Lord didn't want me to move there. I can travel there. But the Lord said, I can't move there. The Lord says I can move there. I can't move there because if I do it outside, his will, things are not going to turn out. Right. If it's meant to be in his, well, he will open those doors for that to, and I keep that in mind. And I share that with a lot of people. Cause there's a lot of people who really make decisions and don't consult God, they're quick to cast a net and be like, all right, I'm moving here because there's better jobs over there. And then they're not, they don't find a job. Why? Because you didn't consult with the Lord. You didn't ask the Lord to provide a job for you over there. You just made the move and assume that the Lord is just going to take care of you. Yes, the Lord is a provider. But come on, you got to consult with the Lord when you make decisions. And we don't do enough of that. And one way to get past church hurt is to consult with the Lord. We need to have a dialogue with the Lord. Is it me? Or is it that person again, it goes back to self evaluation. Am I doing enough to deal with the situation
Speaker 3:I tell you that there's another, there's another angle to this. And that is, uh, sometimes God wants to move you into another church. Uh, more opportunities for ministry or Mo or more difficulties to sanctify you with. And um, and you, and you resist because you have so many friends and attachments. And so you resist the will of God because of your sentiments. And then you overstay your time and then a conflict arises had you left. When, when you sensed, God was moving, you, you would have avoided a conflict when you stay too long. And I, that, that happened to me once and I've seen it happen to, uh, several people, uh, in life where they overstay their time. And the only way to get them out is, and we see that God uses conflict, that I mentioned that already with, uh, Paul and Barnabas. Um, but anyway, the, the prayer, as you said is perhaps one of the most important things, uh, when you started out with forgiveness, I said, you started out with the hardest one. Uh, usually usually I start out with Lord. I need help. Cause this guy's really is going to take me to a level that I don't want to go. You know, I don't want to sin. Lord Jesus said, deliver me. You know, a lot of times you avoid things because you're scared of your own reactions. And that means you cannot trust yourself. Now, if you can't trust yourself, why should God? And I want to live a life that God can trust me. And I want him to feel like he can use me. Um, but if I can't trust myself, how could God trust me? So we're talking about maturity, we're talking about emotional health and emotionally healthy people. Will you talk about, um, um, people that, that, uh, you know, you work with and make life miserable for you and they hurt you deeply? Uh, some of the people that have hurt us deeply our own parents and we love them and we, we don't do what they did because we learned that what they did was not good for us, but you're still to love
Speaker 4:Them and understand that they did that because they didn't have the knowledge that you have when it comes to raising children. I mean, with my generation, not yours, but my generation, um, our parents were, especially my father he'd be living in jail because the way he would beat up my brothers and I got to feel those to a T in today's day. And he threw a hammer at one of them. He threw a big rock at me cause he couldn't, I was faster than, than him already at 13. And, and he, and Oh, he knew he couldn't catch up to me and he picked up a rock and threw it. And luckily I looked back and I went right up, but it hit my head. It could have killed me and be in jail for murder, the tragedy that that would have affected. So I realized that, although I love my dad, that I couldn't, and I sometimes see my dad in my reaction that I had to work really hard at self control and managing my anger because I would never be an effective minister and God could not trust me. When, when I worked with potential and I've mentored other pastors through the years, one of the first things I find out is their ability to manage depression and to manage anger. If they don't manage anger well, and they can't navigate depression, they're not good candidates for ministry. We're gotta find a w uh, either a way to heal those areas in their lives or find some other, because a pastor who, who doesn't navigate depression well, we'll use the pulpit when he's depressed and hurt the flock. A pastor who does not navigate his temper well will hurt people. And people will feel it like in the name of Jesus Christ allowed this to me, you know? Uh, and it's, it's, it's horrible. It's like, uh, immorality, uh, w when a pastor or priest is involved in sexual abuse, that person is hurt in so many ways. It's not just the physical, it's the spiritual, you don't trust anybody of the church anymore. Um, psychological, it might damage you for life. You may never get married. It might swing you in a direction of more, you know, hurt people, hurt people, abused people, end up abusing people. So I think maybe we can end on this. And that is that, um,
Speaker 8:Teachers okay.
Speaker 4:Have to be careful. And a teacher is, is an office of high rank in the body of Christ. I would say that apostles, evangelists, prophets, pastors, teachers, they all have a greater judgment according to James, because we should be role models. Amen. So we shouldn't really be looking for these things, because if you're looking for a position that has a higher degree of the man from God, then you're going to be judged that way. Uh, I think it's important to, to really be healthy and, and to know, like I had one pastor came to me and said, I'm suffering from severe depression. I can't sleep. I'm not eating well. I told him either find out from your board, if you could, if you could afford a sabbatical or resign. And the reason I said, it's one, there was two reasons. One, I foresaw him being hospitalized against his will. It's depression could be major and a major depression. You could develop suicidal ideation, scandalous that has passed. They'll committed suicide in the last three or four years. We've had an incredible number of pastors who have committed suicide. It's horrible. And the church has confused about that. How could that be? How could they do that? Yeah. Um, and the other side of it is you hurt the flock when you're not that healthy.
Speaker 5:What is it? If you can't take care of yourself, how are you going to take care of your flock? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Um, and, and, and the profits that
Speaker 5:Strike the shepherd scatter, the sheep[inaudible].
Speaker 4:So the enemy focuses on leaders. And this is what usually we tell people who have been abused by leaders is that your leader was the object of a phenomenal diabolical scheme to destroy you. And he used a very important person. And, and we don't know, you know, that their marriage could have been financial, whatever could be that he has cancer. He's not willing to tell anybody, uh, his house is getting repossessed. And he's the pastor, you know, what kind of testimony, the overwhelming that happened to a pastor, his house was being repossessed and he was the pastor. And so he stopped tithing to make, and the treasurer repeated it to the Bishop and the Bishop called him in, how could you be a pastor, not tithing as if, you know, the title was more important than his soul. And that's another, that's another side.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Should we definitely touch on? We make laws and we add more laws that
Speaker 4:Jesus completed and we still trying to fix them, but that's another subject. But what I'm saying is that sometimes we have to leave the position of authority before we do damage to the pig, and we should be evaluating our health. And the only way we can evaluate our health is to have an advisory, have four or five pastors who can speak into your life and say, you know how you're doing and be, you know, I have a really difficult time. Haven't had that many because I've been blessed in this church, uh, to have good people who listened to me. But, uh, there have been two occasions where I really, I couldn't handle it. And I called my overseer and I called, um, uh, pastor Joe Armenia. Who's now with the Lord, I called dr. David wins. They will, uh, Fonzo white. They'll part of my advisory. They can never be pastors here because it would ruin, it would ruin that relationship where I could tell them something. And they're not part of this. So there's no bias in, sorry, there's no bias involved and you need to have that. And every pastor should have someone to go to every pastor shaft, someone that goes, but I tell you the truth. There've been times in my own life and in my own marriage that I went for therapy. I, this Eli Samuel cologne once a therapy with Esther and, and it helped us. And the reason I went to therapy is because it was affecting my ability to pastor. And I said, if I can't pass that I got to resign. So this has to be dealt with. And I went, fortunately, because I believe in counseling and in therapy, I went and then I went up here and I said, I told everybody I'm in therapy right now. The pastor was in therapy. They don't even remember it, but it was probably physical therapy.
Speaker 5:It's good to be transparent because you know what? They can see that you, first of all, human, the other is that, um, we need to, when we have a problem, we need to have people to confide in. If they can confide in you, they got to also have the ability to see that you can confine and dumb. Cause as a congregation, they're family. Now this is a big family. Now, when you're in pastor shit, it isn't just you and your family is you, your family and a church do a big family. When you cry, they should be crying as well. And vice versa when you're in, in that kind of ministry. Like I remember experiencing that as a deacon. And I remember my first year as deacon, I went on vacation and my wife laughed because all of a sudden people were calling me and they knew I was on vacation and
Speaker 4:My wife would have been,
Speaker 5:I want to know how I am. I cannot, it could be an issue sometimes in marriage, I guess me and Pastor Sam could understand that. I can't say no. When someone asks me for help, if I can help them, I'll try to help them. Does that sometimes cause riffs, yes, it does. Sometimes. You know, you got balance and rightfully so, got a balance. Happy wife, happy life. Oh no, that
Speaker 4:Should be the, the, the 11th commandment.
Speaker 5:But you know, in our heart, when we truly connected to the body of Christ, when someone's hurt and you can help alleviate that hurt you, you, you do your best to try. And my first year of deacon ship, I had several people called me. And I remember having all these people, me. And it was the first time that year where you could patch your cell phone through your car. And I had a rental car and I always told them my wife is using the car and you know, I'm on vacation. So it's up to you if you're okay. When my wife listening to what you're going to tell me, they were like, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. And they'll say whatever was going and I couldn't stop crying. And my wife was like,
Speaker 1:Oh my God, like I'm here on vacation.
Speaker 5:I'm just crying and pray for these people in this situation. And I could be at the pool and I'm still calling people, did this get resolved? You know? And when I got back and I told the pastor, everything that happened was like, you weren't on vacation. I was like, no, I wasn't. I was still doing stuff.
Speaker 1:But what I'm telling you is that when you truly have to love, yeah, yeah. You, you do the stuff that the Lord calls you to do, and you're not a Harley.
Speaker 5:Exactly. You're not a highly. And I want to wrap this up cause I know we've been here for quite a bit and I'm going to wrap this up with this. Um, don't blame God for what his children misbehave. We cannot abandon the church. Um, there are many more people dedicated, grace-filled loving and forgiving in most churches than they are not. Um, we have to seek them out and spend time with them. Um, again like the broker proper says iron sharpens iron find someone that you can meditate with in the Lord. Um, if you have a spouse, make sure you pray with them once in a while, um, fast with them. Um, if you don't have a spouse, find someone you can pray and share with someone you're willing to trust us. This is a confidence environment that you don't want to just share with just anyone, especially when you're exposing so much of yourself. Okay.
Speaker 4:I think those are good advice. Darby. I think the who's ever listening to us, uh, should follow those. Um, and, and in the end, let me just say that, um, all leaders have their limitations, the great, the great import of Martin Luther's risk reaction and response to the abuses of the paddock. And when he put the 95, these is on the door of the Berg. Uh, chapel is that, uh, we all as believers have access to the Holy of Holies. And, uh, no, no leader can stop you from going to Jesus. He's the lover of your soul. Amen. And no matter what hurt you experienced in church, uh, the measure of Christianity is not the people who call themselves Christians, but the Lord who Rose on the third day, he is what makes Christianity the truth, uh, Christianity without Jesus Christ is just a religion. Jesus Christ is our salvation. It's not that he saves us is that he is our salvation. And if you can get the nuance of that statement and if you haven't then think on it, ponder on it, he's not just our savior. He is actually our salvation. Amen, amen. And so what we need to do is get hidden deeply in him. He's the way the truth and the life. And we have a Lord who broke through the veil and invited a sin. This is what the writer of Hebrews says. Um, we don't have a high priest that can't be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but it was in all points, tempted and tested like as we are yet without sin. And then it says, let us therefore come boldly before the throne of grace so that we might upturn mercy in time of need it. Doesn't say come meekly and quietly. No, it says run to grace, run to the throne of grace. You have the right to run no matter who abuses you no matter who hurts you, no matter what rank they have, what title they have, you have access to Jesus. That's what in theologists called the universal priesthood of the believer. We no longer need a mediator. We only have one mediator between God and man. And that is Jesus Christ. The righteous, thank you brother, Darby for giving me this privilege and this honor of sharing
Speaker 1:I, it was a pleasure. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for the listeners. I hope you're blessed. Um, always keep your eyes on Christ and may this message podcast heal you and continue edifying you and building you up. God bless and thank you for listening.