S6E87 | Justin Riggs - Willful Deviants: Utah's Elite and the Roots of Ritual Abuse

Today I’m honored to have back on the show, LDS abuse whistleblower, survivor, investigative researcher, journalist and reporter, creator of LDS Abuse, excommunicated lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, loving father, nature lover, and a man on a mission to help members of the spiritual body known as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints know what to expect from their church if they become victims of abuse: Justin Riggs aka @ldsabuse

In case you are new here or missed any of Justin’s previous episodes, here is a quick recap to catch you up as well as a teaser about what we will be discussing today:

Justin, also known as LDS Abuse across social media platforms, has become a singular voice for truth in the quiet corridors of history and the hidden vaults of institutional records. What began as personal curiosity about how good people could fail victims of abuse evolved into a rigorous, evidence-based mission. This relentless pursuit came at great personal cost: Justin’s work led to his excommunication from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints after being a life-long member. Yet he continues, driven by the conviction that sunlight is the best disinfectant and that secrets only allow abuse to metastasize. His research has connected the dots between ritual abuse allegations, historical infiltration efforts, and the LDS corporation’s prioritization of brand protection - revealing a system where victims are funneled into therapy modalities that undermine legal recourse, and where even prophets and apostles have been implicated in shielding perpetrators.

Justin stands as a model of intellectual courage and moral clarity. Through painstaking research, he has transformed private pain into public knowledge, given voice to the voiceless, and offered a roadmap for accountability. He carries righteous anger for the victims, especially the children, but refuses to dehumanize even the perpetrators, while acknowledging that most abusers do not repent and that justice must come. He speaks of chain breakers and he believes in a God of both justice and mercy. He weeps with survivors, fights alongside them, and extends grace even when it comes at a personal cost. He is living proof that one man, armed with truth and an unbreakable commitment to the vulnerable, can shift the Overton window. He has turned personal trauma into collective awakening, he has transformed whispers into documented history, he has modeled what it means to be a true disciple - not blind obedience, but fierce love that protects the innocent and vulnerable. He is not merely a survivor advocate. He is a researcher whose dedication to facts has become a beacon of hope for all who seek the light in the darkness.

The last episode we did centered on the bizarre and atrocious case of Gordon Bowen - a world-famous advertising executive whose alleged decades-long ties to church leaders, patterns of abuse, financial misconduct, and institutional cover-ups illustrated precisely the systemic failures Justin has spent years documenting. On today’s episode we will be expanding on that discussion and some topics we touched on at the end of that last episode: secret societies and their deeply-embedded and occulted ties to the very infrastructure of power, corruption, and ritual abuse coverups we witness from the top down in todays’s society. What starts as a measured examination of quasi-religious oaths, humiliation rituals, and patronage systems becomes a clear-eyed look at why justice for survivors remains so elusive - and why Justin’s evidence-based courage continues to light the path forward.

Justin remains what he has always been: a survivor who refused to stay silent, a researcher who turned personal cost into collective light, and a beacon for every person still searching for truth in the darkness. His courage continues to shift what is possible. His humanity continues to heal. And his unwavering stand continues to remind us that one dedicated soul, armed with evidence and fierce love for the vulnerable, can help break the chains for generations yet to come.

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https://gordonbowencourtdocuments.com/

🔗CONNECT WITH JUSTIN:
X: @ldsabuse - https://x.com/ldsabuse
Website: https://ldsabuse.info/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ldsabuse_on_x

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What's up, you guys? Welcome to The Imagination. I'm your host, Emma, and today I'm so honored to have back on the show once again LDS Abuse Whistleblower, Survivor, Investigative Researcher, Journalist, and Reporter, Creator of LDS Abuse, Excommunicated, Lifelong Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, loving father, nature lover, and a man on a mission to help members of the spiritual body known as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints know what to expect from their church if they become victims of abuse. Justin Riggs, aka LDS Abuse, if you guys are on social media. In case you're new here, if you missed any of Justin's previous episodes, especially the very last one, here is a quick recap to catch you up, as well as a little teaser of what we will be discussing today. Justin, also known as LDS Abuse across social media platforms, has become a singular voice for truth in the quiet corridors of history and the hidden vaults of institutional records. What began as personal curiosity about how good people could feel victims of abuse evolved into a rigorous, evidence-based mission. This relentless pursuit came at great personal cost. Justin's work led to his excommunication from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints after being a lifelong member. Yet he continues, driven by the conviction that sunlight is the best disinfectant and that secrets only allow abuse to metastasize. His research has connected the dots between ritual abuse allegations, historical infiltration efforts, and the LDS corporation's prioritization of brand protection, revealing a system where victims are funneled into therapy modalities that undermine legal recourse and where even prophets and apostles have been implicated in shielding perpetrators. Justin stands as a model of intellectual courage and moral clarity. Through painstaking research, he has transformed private pain into public knowledge, given voice to the voiceless, and offered a roadmap for accountability. He carries righteous anger for the victims, especially the children, but refuses to dehumanize even the perpetrators, while acknowledging that most abusers do not repent and that justice still must come. He speaks of chainbreakers and he believes in a God of both justice and mercy. He weeps with survivors, fights alongside them, and extends grace even when it comes at personal cost. He's living proof that one man, armed with the truth and an unbreakable commitment to the vulnerable, can shift the Overton window. He has turned personal trauma into collective awakening. He has transformed whispers into documented history. He's modeled what it means to be a true disciple, not blind obedience, but fierce love that protects the innocent and vulnerable. He's not merely a survivor advocate. He's a researcher whose dedication to facts has become a beacon of hope for all who seek the light in the darkness. The last episode we did centered on the bizarre and atrocious case of Gordon Bowen, a world-famous advertising executive whose alleged decades-long ties to the church leaders, patterns of abuse, financial misconduct, and institutional cover-ups illustrated precisely the systemic failures Justin has spent years documenting. On today's episode, we will be expanding on that discussion and some topics we touched on at the end of that last episode. Secret societies and their deeply embedded and occulted ties to the very infrastructure of power, corruption, and ritual abuse cover-ups we witness from the top down in today's society. What starts as a measured examination of quasi-religious oaths, humiliation rituals, and patronage systems becomes a clear-eyed look at why justice for survivors remains so elusive, and why Justin's evidence-based courage continues to light the path forward. Justin remains what he has always been: a survivor who refused to stay silent, a researcher who turned personal cost into collective light, and a beacon for every person still searching for truth in the darkness. His courage continues to shift what is possible. His humanity continues to heal, and his unwavering stand continues to remind us that one dedicated soul, armed with evidence and fierce love for the vulnerable, can help break the chains for generations yet to come. So, you guys, without further ado, please help me in welcoming back today's guest of honor, writer, creator, business owner, and content creator, survivor and whistleblower, victim advocate, voice for the voiceless, courageous warrior, passionate purveyor of truth, and institutional lie detector and dismantler, the one, the only, Justin Riggs. Justin, thank you for coming on again today. It's an honor to have you back.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Oh Emma, thank you so much. Uh, I'm I know it's only been a couple weeks, and so I feel uh so grateful and honored to be back so quickly. So thank you for having me again. I think today's gonna be a great show, so I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

I do too. And it's awesome seeing these stories start to make the rounds that you've been researching, watching bigger platforms, create videos, seeing you on We The People We Are the People Utah, which if you guys listening aren't following them, you guys should. They're another amazing podcast that covers this type of content we do here. Um, but your work seems like it's it's starting to roll, the snowball's starting to get bigger, more and more people are starting to jump on board with seeing what you've seen for a long time, which must feel really good for you.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yeah, it's great. I mean, it's uh I was just talking to a friend right before the show, and I was telling her that uh it's hard because I feel like I'm about to lose control of the narrative. For a long time, I was one of only a few people that was willing to talk about Gordon Bowen. And so I was able to sort of tightly control what information was being released and when it was being released, and now we're seeing some of these larger um platforms pick it up, and I realized that like I'm not gonna get to tell this story for much longer. So so now I'm gonna start telling this new story, Emma, and I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to controlling the narrative if I can't. But no, but honestly, like I mean, you know, as you talked about in the intro, what we're gonna talk about today I is really like the underlying substructure of why we see the Gordon Bowen situations, in my opinion. And so I'm really excited to like start broadening if people are open now to the idea that like the church shouldn't be affiliating with men like Gordon Bowen.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Have you heard of the Mormon Jeffrey Epstein? Let's talk about Gordon Bowen, a man who's also been coined as the punisher for his obsession with torture. Gordon created advertisements for many influential people and companies, such as George Bush, Mitt Romney, Coca-Cola, Disney, Crayola, and Staples. He was constantly moving jobs because of his bizarre sexual behavior. Here are some of the allegations. And here is a script he wrote for the LDS Church when they asked him to screenwrite a film about Jesus. It contains weird sexual themes about Jesus and children. As you can imagine, they never used it. It's been speculated that he may have joined the LDS Church because of his infatuation with Barbara Boyce Timothy, a woman from his school who he believed would cure his homosexuality. She had three children with her first husband before he died, and then she married Bowen and had two more. Eventually, Barbara discovered through phone records that Bowen had propensities for gay escorts and gay pornography. During the divorce proceedings, all of his crimes against children and other members of the church were brought to light. In his own journal, he writes about how one of Barbara's sons needed tough masculine love and felt sexual desire towards Bowen. Barbara's other son recalls a time where he was molested in his bed while on vacation with Bowen. He was excommunicated publicly from the church in 2003, but behind closed doors, the church was still associating with him. Gordon was one of the main creative contributors for the Salt Lake City Temple open house, even after all church leadership was made aware of his involvement in ritualized sexual abuse. Recently, he was even seen hanging out with high-level apostles at Disneyland. Both of his close friends Mitt Romney and Apostle Russell Ballard knew for over a decade that Bowen was accused of pedophilia and they still chose to associate with him. David Hamlin was a member of the church and Gordon's therapist on and off for 30 years. Hamblin admitted on tape to raping his own daughters. He claimed that the cult within the church would use tactics to split members' personalities and even implant evil entities into their bodies. In Hamlin's daughter's testimony, they both claim that Gordon Bowen tortured and raped them in a room next to a corpse and multiple skin suits. They also accuse David Levitt of being involved. Somehow, after all of this, the church remains affiliated with Bowen and he hasn't been charged. I think it forces us to beg the question: is church leadership also trafficking children? Do they own the local justice system? Or do they just have morally no problem hanging out with a child rape?

SPEAKER_02 9:48

Now I want to start talking about the next question that everybody asks, which is, how did this happen? And I think that that what I'm going to offer today is really explanatory. And that's my opinion. You know, one of the other things that I'm having to talk to a lot of people about is like I put dots on a page, and everybody gets to take those dots and draw lines between the dots and create their own picture of what they think reality looks like. And I'm going to present my version of like how I connect the dots, but everybody else gets to do that for themselves. What we can't argue about are the dots, right? The dots are things that happened in real space and real time. How we process that, how we filter that information, what stories we build around that is up to each of us individually. And I think that's what we're going to see with the Gordon Bowen story really quickly. Here is that there's a lot of dots out there. And now people are going to start connecting those in different ways, and we're going to start seeing some really interesting things happen out there as it relates to how that story gets told. So, but yeah, it's a it's it's an exciting time for me.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

So and I just want to say too, you know, despite so many more people jumping on board and wanting to have their own hand and helping share this information, people always know where it began. You know, you were the root of it. And we're all really grateful for all of your years that paved the way for more researchers to have the opportunity to help disperse it further, you know, and and it's awesome. And nobody can duplicate that. And the same thing's gonna happen with everything that you research. It's always gonna be the first, and then other people are gonna pick up pieces. And, you know, it's just really cool watching that with you. And one of the things that we were talking about before we came on that I wanted to mention, you know, the the work that you do specifically began with talking about the LDS church and talking about corruption around it, built into it, infiltrated outward from it. You know, but what I want the audience to take away from this is that the micro model that you're talking about in a specific state, even um with specific organizations, specific people involved, that model is duplicated in every state, in every country, everywhere all over the world, even in small towns, big cities. And it's not even just in a church. You could take that same model and put it in politics or you know, elsewhere. But what you start to see is that these webs extend, extend outward and the connections just keep going and going and going. And so that's what I really love about your research, Justin, is that it helps us understand the world on a macro scale from looking at a model on a micro scale, because this information, when heard, you know, in just a TikTok video and not just specifically what you're talking about, just that these topics in general, they're so big that it's really hard for people to wrap their minds around understanding how that fits into the world that they live in. But if you take a pocket of that and you can really break it down in details and with people and where it stretches out to, it's really easy to take that and then start to understand it on a bigger scale. And I think you've really helped open that door for people to have a greater understanding of how this works and is built into our society.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah, boy, I love that. And I I hope that's true. I hope that, you know, people can take this. The the sign of a good hypothesis is that you can take it and you can generalize it. And I think that this hypothesis holds together very well for Utah and Mormonism. And I hope that other people take this and take the patterns because there's nothing that we're talking about here that's specifically Mormon. It's about human nature and human organizations and that kind of a thing. So I hope people will take it and test my hypothesis against the organizations that they're a part of, where maybe they see that there's a standard out there that's not being followed by people that ought to be following that standard and seeing if these same characteristics and attributes that I found inside the Mormon church apply outside. I think that what people will find is that they probably do. So along those lines, um, you know, whenever you're ready, we can hop in and I will start uh presenting this for people to take a look at. Great. All right. So I wanted to start today um along what you were talking about, Emma, in terms of like the macro versus the micro, because the reason that this research worked so well is that there's a macro organization called Skull and Bones, and everybody knows about Yale Skull and Bones, and they know that they're this powerful group, and they know they have these very strange initiation rights, and they know that these guys go to the Bohemian Grove and that they have presidents, and that like if you're in Skull and Bones, your chances of success in the worldly sense are way above anything, you have a comparative advantage. But what most people didn't realize, and I didn't realize until a few years ago, is that Yale University chose the University of Utah to start up a second chapter of Skull and Bones there at the University of Utah. And so we can look at the microcosm of the Utah Skull and Bones story and how that all works and see if it applies across the macro of what we know so much about. And so um a lot of people like to uh uh accuse me of being uh what is that, Q anon, Q adjacent? And um, and I did watch Q quite carefully when it first came out and and uh spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out what was going on there without really coming to any firm conclusions. But I thought today I would start my presentation, but with this symbolism will be their downfall, so that all those people who who say that I'm um a Q guy can now point to this and put it out there for the world, right? So look at me, I'm a Q guy. So um anyway, the point here is that um, as you can see, the University of Utah Skull and Bones Society gave this um picture to the um uh University of Utah school newspaper for a story that they were doing on um Skull and Bones at the University of Utah. And I think what they didn't realize is that somebody was going to come along and look at this and look at it from the symbolic standpoint, not just the literal standpoint. And we've talked about this a little bit in the other show and in a couple of other shows that I've done, but I want this is so important, okay? And I do have a little bit of new information about this that I want people to understand. So as you can see here, they gave them a picture of a skull sitting on two books, or three books, actually. Um you can hardly see the third book, but it's down here, um, and it's the index of that encyclopedia. And if you just look at it like that as you're glancing through the paper, you think, oh, okay, cute kids. They have their little club, they have skulls, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when you look at this symbolically, what you see is that it's not a human skull, right? It has a tooth that's not a human tooth. It has a nasal cavity that's not the human nasal cavity, it has the skull cap, which means that the brain has been removed. And then they place this on top of these two encyclopedias that are the M-A-L and S-A-R encyclopedias. And then just barely down here, you can barely see it, it's the index. And so if you look at this symbolically, is what you're seeing is that we have something not quite human sitting on top of a body of knowledge. And in terms of the part of the body of knowledge that they care about, it's the M-A-L and S-A-R parts of that. What's interesting about that, of course, is that everybody knows that words that start with M-A-L, like malcontent, malignant, malicious, it all means evil, bad, corrupt, right? What we just sort of figured out, and uh, I have to really tip my hat to Alexia over at um We Are the People Utah for helping me really um figure out what this meant because I thought it probably meant prince, because in the in the Hebrew language, S-A-R means prince. But what Alexia said in our last show is she said, Oh, well, so because she's uh from a Jewish background, and she said, Well, Tsar Shalom is the Prince of Peace. And so what you have here is the Prince of Evil, right? And what they're basically trying to tell you is we have knowledge about the Prince of Evil, and it turns us into this not quite human sort of thing. Okay. And I'm not saying that that's the exact interpretation. The whole purpose of putting things into symbols is for plausible deniability when somebody says that they understand what that what that symbol means, right? And so I'm sure if you were to talk to some skull and bones guy, he'd be like, oh yeah, that has nothing to do with it. But I think it's a pretty compelling explanation for why they gave this particular picture and what they're trying to tell those who are initiated as it relates to like what kind of people we're dealing with. Okay. So inside of that, the really surprising thing is that you have members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, including all the way up to apostles and prophets, who joined this organization, this Utah University of Utah Skull and Bone Society. And so for my in my world, you would not expect to see that. And so I titled today's presentation Willful Deviance. Utah's Elite and the Roots of Ritual Abuse. And the reason I called it Willful Deviance is what I want to talk today is about standards and deviations from the standard. Because as we talk about taking this outside of Mormonism and applying it to other organizations, every organization has their own set of standards. And then inside of that organization, everybody kind of has to decide how far are we willing to deviate from the standard before we decide that something is good or bad, right or wrong, legal or illegal. And I think, Mike, my point in in terms of the research that I've done is that my personal feeling, Justin Riggs's worldview, does not include men who deviate from the standards of the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints to the extent that these men did, and look at it and say, yeah, they're within that range of where we want our people to be. To me, these guys willfully stepped outside the standards and deviated from those standards, in my opinion, for the purpose of gaining power, influence, and gain in business, political, ecclesiastical structures, and so on and so forth. And I think that that probably applies across other organizations as well, where you have a standard, inside of that, a small group of people decides that they want to deviate from the standard, they form a clique, they do some secret things, and all of a sudden they have this distinct advantage that other people don't have inside of the organization. And I think I can prove fairly conclusively that that's what's happened inside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And what I'm interested in moving forward is does it apply across societies, across the world, right, in in terms of human organization and human behavior? So to show that there is a standard um inside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, um, I actually just received this yesterday from a really good friend of mine. Um they were going through some old stuff and they said, Hey, Justin, uh, we just found this book called Priesthood and Church Government. Would you like to see it? And I said, Absolutely, I would like to see it. So they sent me some pictures and now they've mailed it to me. So I'll be able to go through this and really establish what um the rules are for holding the priesthood in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and how church government should look and compare it to what we see in terms of how um these priesthood leaders acted and how they've governed the church. But for today, I just want people to understand that there is a standard. Okay, this book was written under the guidance of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. It was written by John A. Whitso, who we're gonna talk about a little bit more in a second. But it's it's not what they would consider canon of the church, like the scriptures, but it's about as close as you can get to that because it was produced under the eye of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. So there is a standard, this kind of thing. And then of course, we have what are called the standard works, which are in in the Church of Jesus Christ or Letterday Saints, that's gonna be your Bible, your Book of Mormon, your doctrine and covenants, and your pearl of great price, anything that's been canonized, and a few um other um statements that were voted on as canon by the church. I'm gonna go through some of this rather quickly because I know that a lot of your um audience isn't Mormon. Some of this is very Mormon specific, but I so I'm just gonna cover sort of like high level what's going on here, because I don't I know that people don't necessarily want to get down in the weeds. But what I want to point out is that back in 1886, the first presidency of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, so the highest governing body inside the church, the one that sets the standards, gave a talk in the General conference or sent an epistle, excuse me, to be read in the general conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So that's like if you're in a company, once a year you're gonna have, or twice a year you're gonna have a board meeting and everybody's gonna come, or you're gonna meet with your shareholders, or you're gonna have an all-employee, all hands meeting. And that's what's general conferences. And so they pull everybody together on April 6th, 1886. And the message that the first presidency wanted shared was about a conspiracy to overthrow Mormonism and the state of Utah. So I'm just gonna read this. It says the scenes which we are now witnessing in this territory are the result of a deep-laid and carefully planned conspiracy, which has been in process of formation for years. Its originators knew the elements they had to deal with, and by cunning contrivance, they have effected a wonderful combination. Religious and irreligious, ministers in sacredal robes and atheistic scoffers, businessmen of integrity and black legs, temperance men and drunkards, men of strict morality and pimps and harlots are crowded together on the platform they have constructed, and they find no inconvenience from each other's companionship. Each is made to believe it is to his direct interest to combine to destroy Mormonism. Okay? Now, anybody who knows anything about Mormonism knows that what this is mostly talking about is um Mormons and polygamy. Uh, this is right in the heart of the battle that the church was fighting um against the United States of America regarding polygamy. And so I want to acknowledge that a lot of what they're talking about in terms of this conspiracy is the United States government, in their view, infringing upon their liberties to marry who they wanted to, when they wanted to, and to raise families the way that they wanted to. But that wasn't the only thing that they were talking about. They were also talking about concerns that they had about the children being exposed to what's called sophism. Okay. Um they said here in Idaho territory, the usurpations of the officers have gone from bad to worse. They there out Herod Herod in that disregard of the people's liberties. One of the latest movements has in view the revocation of all certificates given to school teachers who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ, which means the placing of our children by the help of our taxes under the tuition of those who would gladly eradicate from their minds all love and respect for the faith of their fathers. The duty of our people under these circumstances is clear. It is to keep their children away from the influence of the sophisms of infidelity and the vagaries of the sex. So what the leaders of the church are saying is hey, they're trying to take over our education system and force us to pay them to educate our children the way that the world wants to educate them versus the way that we want to educate them. So it gives us a standard, a baseline of what church leaders expected people to do. And now we can look in a few years and see what happened and whether the church held the line or whether those who were trying to take over the education system were able to do so. Okay, and we're going to talk about that in a second. Um they were also worried about this delusion that members of the church could mix with what they called the Gentiles. And they said, many of the young of both sexes, when all was peace and no war was made upon their parents and friends, seemed to be of the opinion that they could, without any danger to themselves or their faith, be in full fellowship with the world. And I want to stop and I want to really, really have people focus on that statement. Full fellowship with the world. Because I think what I'm going to show is that in 1886, church leaders were teaching that you couldn't be in full fellowship with the world. But today, in 2026, the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ specifically are in full fellowship with the world. And they didn't do what these leaders in 1886 taught that that was the duty, the standard that they were setting out for members of the church. Okay. It goes on to say the names Latter-day Saint and Gentile were alike to them. They appeared to see no reason why they could not be on terms of perfect friendship with both classes. And then here's the important part. They said every Latter-day Saint of experience knows how dangerous it is for children to stand upon this ground. So if I had to sort of encapsulate that into one sentence, what they were saying is beware who you associate with. Okay, so now we have a benchmark, a standard. The first presidency says, be careful who you spend time with. Make sure that you don't let the world educate your children away from the teachings of Mormonism. And then, of course, they want everybody to have to be pure in their morals and have a high standard of honor, of truth, virtue, and integrity, that they should be obedient to their parents and their God and cherish a reverence for everything holy. So in 1886, the first presidency lays out several standards for um members of the church. And now what we need to do is look and say, did the members of the church follow these standards or did they deviate from the standards? And if they deviated from the standards, exactly how far did they deviate from the standards? So, sort of a spoiler alert is that they deviated extremely far from the standards, as far as I'm concerned. And everybody is free to disagree with me about that. But I think today, by the time we're done with this presentation, I'm going to show you that they didn't do any of these things. In fact, they did quite the opposite. Government-run schools became a part of Utah very soon after this, and children were sent to those schools. Um, they they really mixed and mingled, especially inside of the Greek living system at the University of Usah, Utah, between Mormons and Gentiles, and were educated away from their beliefs. And they sort of didn't really have like they didn't cherish a reverence for everything holy as um the brethren had asked them to. And so only 10 years after the brethren give this talk in general conference or have this epistle read in general conference, they become a state. And the biggest thing that people need to understand about that is that they had to give up um polygamy uh in order to become a state. And there's a whole story behind that. But that's sort of like the big compromise that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make in order to become a part of the United States is we will give up polygamy if you will let us be a part of your union. Okay. So once they're a part of the union, the union begins to try to assimilate them. Like they they don't want, like they call them the twin barbarisms of polygamy and slavery. And so once you're a part of the union, you're now under this power structure, based out of Washington, D.C., of course. Um, and and so they're gonna try to integrate you. And of course, the way that they want to integrate you mostly, secularism mostly works through self-interest. And self-interest is mostly related to finance. And so inside the church, um, they start to get integrated and through this. And as uh non-members of the church gain positions of power, they end up in places like the Board of Regents for the University of Utah, an educational institution, including like actually the flagship educational institution in the state of Utah. And so you have this mix of Mormon leadership and non-Mormons running the university. And in around 1916, we don't have the exact date of when this happened, but John Widsow, who ends up being a Mormon apostle, but at this time was the president of the University of Utah, he writes in a book called In a Sunlit Land about a time where he overheard two members of the Board of Regents say this. He says, It was actually shocking when I accidentally overheard two non-Mormon regents among the most eminent men of the state conversing upon this subject. Said, one, we must take over the university and train the young people away from Mormonism. Yes, answered the other, you are right. That's our next job to secure full control of the institution, secure a non-Mormon president and teachers, and educate the students away from Mormon beliefs. The state will then be ours. And then John Whitso says, for the moment at least, these men forgot their oath of office as regents of the university. Or was it just for the moment? Now, one really weird open question about this is that John Whitso almost certainly knew about the 1886 um warning about the conspiracy to overthrow Utah. And so the fact that he overheard this only 20 years later, but didn't tie it back to that earlier statement, is a bit of a mystery that I haven't been able to solve yet. But no matter how you look at this, it makes the first presidency in 1886 actually look quite prophetic. Okay, because what you have here is two men doing exactly what the first presidency in 1886 described, which is trying to take control of a universe, uh a university, which is an educational institution, for the purpose of taking people away from the teachings of Mormonism so that they can then um uh take over the state, right? They say the state will then be ours. And so you actually have John Whitso overhearing conspirators, and they're not nameless conspirators. We can actually tell you exactly who they were. The reason we can do that is that there were only three non-member, um non-Mormon members of the Board of Regents at the University of Utah at the time of John A. White so's presidency, but at the time that he would have overheard it, there were actually only two. And the reason for that is described here. The basic idea is that there was a big um uh controversy at the school where the Board of Regents was trying to remove the previous president by the name of Kingsbury. And to me, it appears that this was a part of their conspiracy, but I can't quite prove that. But they were successful in getting rid of Kingsbury. And so immediately the Mormon members of the Board of Regents proposed that John Whitso becomes the president. There's a there's a um there's a vote, and it says here the board split along ecclesiastical lines with Regents Bamberger, Armstrong, and Whitmore, none of whom were Latter-day Saints, voting against the measure. So there's our three, okay? Bamberger, Armstrong, and Whitmore. But what you see is that um two of them are especially strongly object to this, and it says Regents Armstrong and Bamberger later issued a formal statement protesting the vote. And then you finally see at the end, the same day after they bring Whitso and they choose Whitso, it says the same day Regent Whitmore, one of the dissenters, announced his resignation from the board, which only leaves Armstrong and Bamberger. So when when uh Whitso says that he overheard two non-member, um, two non-Mormon members of the Board of Regents conspiring to overthrow the university, the only two to choose from are Armstrong and Bamberger. I'm not going to spend a lot of time talking about Armstrong, but what people need to understand about Bamberger, the Bamberger family, is the Bamberger family was a Jewish family that came from Bavaria and came into Utah and found a lot of success inside of Utah. Um, in fact, this is Ernest Bamberger that we're talking about as the Board of Regents member. But um, one of his relatives was actually the first Jewish governor of Utah right around this same time. Okay. Um, and so you have this Bamberger influence. They started this really big um amusement park called Lagoon. They built railroads, so they were tied in deeply with men like Brigham Young and John Sharp and others who were involved in the railroad business and that kind of a thing. And so, but the point is that they were extremely influential. And if they were conspiring to teach children, you know, to take children away from Mormonism through the education system in order to take over the state, these are the kinds of people who had the resources to do so. Okay. So this last part for the for the introduction is simply this. My question is did the eternal devolve into the fraternal? And is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints led by Jesus Christ as they claim, or is it led by elitist, willful deviants, those who are willing to deviate from the standards, using their agency to do so? And then the really big question just becomes is how far they deviated from the standards acceptable to people? That's really the only choice that's left. Okay. I'm gonna pause there for just one second, Emma, because I've been talking for a while and I want to make sure that I let you ask any questions that you have or make any comments that you have.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

One thing I did want to note just from listening to survivor interviews on We Are the People, Utah. For people who haven't watched that, Justin mentioned a location called the Lagoon. That is sort of like um on this channel, how Disneyland gets brought up a lot. It's a similar type of location that children are allegedly taken to. And so Justin's bringing up all these powerful people involved with that. Um, and so I just wanted to bring that up because I think that that's also, you know, it ties into the testimony part, which I'm always like putting together the pieces for. And it's really fascinating how you hear a testimony from a survivor and then you go all the way up and you see how even these locations are intertwined into these webs of people and what they're creating and involved with.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

Yeah. No, I mean it's it's a great point. And so, like Lagoon is like Disneyland for um Utah. And the interesting thing is that in the show I did with We Are the People, they actually stopped me and said, Did you know that we have many victims who claim that they were abused in underground tunnels beneath Lagoon? And I said, I actually did not know that. Um, but it very closely matches what you hear from survivors at Disneyland and that kind of a thing. And so um, I'm not saying that people have been abused under Lagoon or not. What I'm saying is that these are the types of people who have the resources and the ability to build underground tunnels, underground amusement parks, under amusement parks, excuse me. Um, and so like, and it just so happens to be a place where people claim they're abused. We're gonna see that the same theme with American Heritage School that's out in American Fork, Utah, that where it gets mentioned as part of this, it gets wrapped into all of this through a guy that was a part of the Bohemian Grove who had a son that ended up being Mormon. And I'll show you that. And so it is interesting to me that like as I do this research and I present this, people will stop me and say, Oh, that's really weird. That guy built an amusement park. It just so happens that all of our abuse, not all of our abuse victims, but many of our abuse victims are telling us they were abused under that park in underground tunnels. And there's all these kinds of connections that happen in that way. So it's a really good point.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

Yeah, it's just fascinating how the same names, the same locations, everything gets repeated. There's patterns that are extremely obvious when you look at everything as a whole instead of just a piece of it.

unknown 36:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

And it's just it's fascinating how you've mentioned these names so many times. And when you actually look at what they're all involved with, it goes all the way to the bottom of what we're hearing from people like survivors and victims that have, you know, alleged that these people are in those abuse circles.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about, like in Utah, from my perspective, based on the research that I've done, what I think the pipeline really looked like starting in the early 1900s, that led people to be in these positions where they were in power, we're in positions of power, influence, and gain, and co-mingling with these this group of people that the first presidency had set a standard to not commingle with. And that story really starts in 1904. And I'm going to go really quickly through this because it's really just history. But what people need to understand is that at the University of Utah, around the year 1904, fraternities showed up. And the very first one that I could find a record of was Delta Sigma. And it just says here, although the youngest fraternity in the university, the Delta Sigma does not lack the interest and fellowship necessary for a good organization. So it sounds to me like there were fraternities before Delta Sigma because Delta Sigma is the youngest fraternity in the university, but this is the first record I can find. And all I wanted to establish is around the turn of the century, fraternities take root inside the University of Utah. Okay, so um 1904 it starts, and then the big fraternities, like the national fraternities, start in around 1909. And Sigma Chi is sort of the first fraternity, the first big fraternity, national fraternity that decides that they want to be a part of the University of Utah. And so they're established in 1909. I'm not gonna really go through here, but all I'm basically trying to say here is that based on Mormon standards, like the way that they, the Frads advertise themselves would not lead you to believe that strong members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or faithful members or those who are following the standards are going to be a part of these fraternities. But what we're gonna find is that many members of the church do join these fraternities. And it's not that it just happened back in the day in 1910. If you were to go to the University of Utah Sigma Chai's Instagram page today, you're gonna find pictures of Sigma Chai guys doing what we know Sigma Chai guys do, right? They dress up funny, they go drinking, they try to hit on girls, they do whatever that fraternity guys do. And everybody has, you know, a pretty good idea, I think, of what happens inside of a fraternity. And we're gonna show explicitly what it takes to get into a fraternity, which I also think deviates from the standards of Mormonism or Orthodox Mormonism, I guess is what you could call it. So immediately on the heels of Sigma Chi coming in 1909, Skull and Bones shows up. And as we've talked about sort of at length, Skull and Bones at the University of Utah is a secret society. It says so right here. The society is a secret one, and their ways are deep and mysterious. And they say we're gonna, we propose to establish this organization in the class of 1911. And it wasn't just a bunch of guys from the University of Utah saying, whoa, look at that cool club over in Yale. We should do something like it. No, the head of Skull and Bones at the University of Utah was a former Bonesman from Yale. And as we're gonna see a little bit later on, they they explicitly acknowledged that Yale set up a chapter at the University of Utah. We can also see that it's from Yale because my friend Ben the Clintock of Tree of Liberty Society, that everybody should take a look at, um, was actually in touch with somebody, an initiate of the University of Utah, Skull and Bones chapter, who offered to give Ben his invitation to when he got tapped. And so here on the left-hand side is Yale's insignia. You can see it has the skull, it has the crossbones, and it has the numbers 322.

SPEAKER_04 40:22

You were both in Skull and Bones, the secret society. It's so secret we can't talk about it. What does that mean for America? The conspiracy theorists are gonna go on. I don't know. I haven't seen the web. Number 322?

SPEAKER_05 40:35

I don't even know. You both were members of Skull and Bones, a secret society of the Yale. What does that tell us? Uh not much because it's a secret. Is there a secret handshake? Is there a secret code? I wish there were something secret I could manifest. 322, a secret number? There are all kinds of secrets, Tim, but one thing is not a secret. I disagree with this president's direction that he's taking the country. We can do a better job than I intend to do it.

SPEAKER_06 41:01

Tim Russett, the moderator of Meet the Press and NBC's Washington Bureau chief, collapsed and died early this afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 41:11

The University of Utah envelope, you can sort of see that this is an envelope here. The wax seal in the school colors of the University of Utah, red, has the Skull the Bones and the numbers 322. They were an official chapter of the Skull and Bones Society at the University of Utah. Okay. So the reason I cover that so closely is that that's the very first thing that people want to fight about is that Skull and Bones at the University of Utah was an honor society that didn't have anything to do with Yale Skull and Bones. And that's just absolutely not true based on the historical record. And anybody can go find everything that I found. I didn't like find some secret treasure trove of documents somewhere that I only have access to. Simply by looking at the historical record, we can very carefully establish, or very conclusively establish, that University of Utah Skull and Bones was directly tied to Yale Skull and Bones. At the same time, um, Allen Key gets set up. And the way that this works is that Skull and Bones originally is for the juniors, and Allen Key is those juniors who graduate on and become Allen Key in their senior year. At the University of Utah, excuse me, there's a little bit of a backstory here. I don't know that I'm going to really get into it, but sort of the point is these things seem to struggle quite a bit at the University of Utah to the point where Alan Key, um, in the 1930s, after Skull and Bones got caught up using their initiates, um, everything was kind of dwindling. And Alan Key had to open up membership to people who weren't Skull and Bones. And I'm just gonna leave it at that for right now. But what people need to understand right now is that in the early 1900s, Sigma Kai, Skull and Bones, Alan Key, and then a group called Pi Kappa Alpha all set up shop at the University of Utah. And these are sort of the power players at the University of Utah. And the way that I know that is that when you do the research and you find out who all the members of Skull and Bones were from 1911 through 1970, it ends up that there's an equal amount of Pi Kappa Alpha members and Sigma Chi members, and then a smattering of other fraternities like beta, theta, pi, um, and so on and so forth. But it's very, very clear that Sigma Chi and Pi Kappa Alpha were really running the show. And that's really important as we move on with our story because what we're gonna find is that most of these prominent elite Mormons, um, as we go through the story, we can trace them back to membership in Pi Kappa Alpha or Sigma Chi, who then some of them get passed on to Skull and Bones and Alan Key. At the same time that this is all happening at the University of Utah, there's another major university in Utah called Brigham Young University. And this is like sort of like the flagship university for the church inside the state of Utah. And so you even have this sort of split in the state of a secular university at the University of Utah. And a religious university at Brigham Young University, but even at the religious university, they didn't have Greek fraternities, but they wanted to be like those guys. And so they created their own fraternal organizations, including one that we need to be aware of, which is called the Gold Brickers or the Sam Hall Society. And what you can see here in this picture is that they were definitely a fraternity and they were definitely paddling people into the fraternity, like the Greeks were paddling their people in, because on their website they have pictures of all their old paddles that they used to physically abuse their initiates into the Brotherhood. A lot of people want to argue with me the same way that they want to argue that Skull and Bones is an honor society. They want to argue that Gold Brickers is not a fraternity, but all you have to do is put it in Google and you'll see it says former BYU fraternity celebrates 100th anniversary. Student off-campus fraternity struggles to preserve heritage. And then here's the Samuel Hall Society leaving their mark. Okay. So since there's nobody here to argue with me, I'm just going to keep moving. But I just want to point out that this is an actual fraternity. Although it's not Greek living, it is a fraternity. And like I did my last show, and immediately somebody comes in the comments and says, Hey, I pledge with Gold Breakers, and those guys weren't cool at all. I brought my non-member girlfriend to an event as I was being initiated, and they had turned a hotel room into a casino, which for those who don't know, gambling is largely frowned upon inside of Mormonism. And so these are guys who don't want to follow the standard and set up a secret society, a social society inside of Brigham Young University so that they can drink and gamble and do the things that they want to do while pretending to be pious members of the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter-day Saints. Okay. In addition to the fraternities, there are also sororities. And I won't go into this too much, but the basic idea is as late as 1997, we have a girl by the name of Christy Curtis who's joining Phi Delta Gamma. She says that it was the induction requirements were demanding and humiliating. And she decides that she's not going to do it. She says they call it bonding, but Christy didn't feel like it was bonding. The idea here is just that at Brigham Young University there were fraternities and sororities, although it's a much different environment than the University of Utah where they have the frat houses on campus. At BYU, that was never the case. There's a guy by the name of Ernest Wilkinson, who was the president of BYU, who really didn't want that stuff. And he's the one who eventually kind of purged BYU of its fraternal and sorority organizations altogether. Okay, this is another sort of stopping point, Emma, if we want to, for you to ask any questions that you want to before we move on to what I really consider the problem as it relates to how far Mormon men and women had to deviate from the standards of the church in order to join fraternities and sororities. You have any questions or anything?

SPEAKER_01 46:49

One thing I did, I just wanted to comment. I was noticing while you were going through your slides, I didn't attend a formal college and I didn't, I was never in a for a fraternity sorority. I was never around that. And the names of them I have never really like paid attention to until I have these conversations. And I realized how many times I know Greek is such a big part of the language that they use for naming these uh fraternities and sororities, but it's fascinating how often beta, epsilon, theta, um, all these Greek words that are also MKUltra programs come up in the names of these fraternities, which are super highly uh involved and intertwined as well with government mind control families, um ritual use families. It's fascinating that that's almost like um a programming trigger for setting people on a path to go there. They're entering fraternities and sororities with the same names of the programs that they have had their whole lives through MTL trees. So just wanted to comment on that because it's it's kind of fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 48:02

Yeah, that's very interesting. So one thing since you brought that up, that I do want to point out is that for the initiated, the P, K, and A mean something totally different to them than they do to us. And I don't have an example of that in front of me, but basically they've in their encoding, right? And so to the world, it's pi kappa alpha, but to the initiated, it means something totally different. And that's one of the things that they do in with in terms of their symbolism, is that they're they're sharing messages that what they call the barbarians don't understand because they're the enlightened and the initiated. And that's one of the problems to me, with for me with fraternities and sororities, is that it creates this sort of class structure and like, and hey, we're smarter than you, we're better than you, we're that, you know, all these kinds of things. And one of the ways they do that is through encoding things, including the very names of their fraternities. So I would encourage people, if you're interested in that, just go on Google and type in what does Pi Kappa Alpha, what does PKA actually mean to the initiates? And you'll see that it means something totally different because a lot of these secrets are leaking out into the world now.

SPEAKER_01 49:04

Fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Okay. So we don't know a ton about skull and bones initiation. Um, Jason and Alexia Preston did a really good job. They found a really great video about um the outside portion of the initiation for members of Skull and Bones at Yale University, and I would encourage everybody to go look at that.

SPEAKER_03 49:30

What you're hearing is the first recording ever made of the Skull and Bones initiation ceremony. It has never been broadcast before. Fifteen new members of the club are being introduced into the macabre rituals of Skull and Bones by the senior students who are about to graduate. The club has what some might see as a strange fascination with death, skulls, and bones. There's the chance, too, difficult to hear first of all, but including the devil equals death, and death equals death.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

What we know is that it's like really crazy stuff, like they're pretending to murder each other, they're yelling things, like screaming things like devil is death, death is death, doing all kinds of weird things, but we don't know a ton about everything that happens in that initiation. What we do know is everything that happens inside of a Sigma Chi initiation. And the way the reason that we do that, we know that, is because WikiLeaks leaked that, their formal ritual document about 20 years ago. And so we can now look and say, okay, what are these Mormon men doing when they join Sigma Chi or Pi Kappa Alpha or Skull and Bones at the University of Utah? But specifically, we know what did these guys who joined Sigma Chi do? And does it align with gospel standards, or is it outside of gospel standards? And if it's outside of gospel standards, how far is it outside of gospel standards? And are we comfortable with how far outside of gospel standards these men went, or do we feel uncomfortable about that, right? So let's go through this a little bit more slowly than we have the other stuff. First thing is to note that it is a secret society. Their very own document says the ritual is part of the law of the fraternity. The ritual has equal force and validity in all respects with the constitution of the fraternity. The matter contained in the constitution, however, is not secret in character, while that contained in the ritual is inviolably secret, accept the special services as therein specified. So here's our first deviation from a gospel standard as far as a Mormon would be concerned. Because you can't have inviolable secrets that you're not allowed to share with like a priesthood leader, for example. Okay. Inside the church, the things that are sacred and secret that you're supposed to keep come from the temple, right? And those kinds of things. But to have an organ, another organization where you're keeping inviolably, you're keeping things inviolably secret is a deviation from the standard of the gospel of Jesus Christ, insofar as I can determine from the governing documents of the church. Okay. So, but it is a secret society. Another problem, in my opinion, is that inside of the church, they'll often talk about mixing the flaw, the philosophies of men mingled with scripture, is what they say. And all that means is hey, as the church, we have the pure gospel of Jesus Christ, and we have to keep the doctrine pure because we don't want to mix it with the philosophies of men. And they'll often point to things like the Nicene Creed, right? Or that kind of a thing. And so when a Mormon goes to join Sigma Chai, though, they are automatically introduced into a system that is mixing the philosophies of men with scripture. And here's how this works: here's the philosophies of men part. It says within that hour, talking about the initiation, there is to be inculcated in the minds of the initiates a rule of life that has its foundation in the philosophies of time. Okay, those are the philosophies of men. The philosophies of time are the philosophies of men. Philosophies that have lived through the ages because they tell the fundamentals of true brotherhood, out of which the founders of our fraternity chose the ideals to which we aspire. Now, what does the gospel according to the Mormons say about this? Okay. Oops, did I choose the wrong thing? No, here we go. Okay, so here's where they mingle it with scripture. At the Black Supper, the consul says, the consul's the person who runs the fraternity. He's like the highest guy in the fraternity. He says, My friends, be seated, remove your blindfolds and place them on the table before you. Candidates eat um the bread, they drink the water. And then the consul says, My friends, we meet with quiet solemnity to honor one of our founders, Franklin Howard Scoby, who said, A man is responsible to God, to his friends, and to his own best judgment for the way he makes up his mind. And then they try to do this thing about Jesus. And I'm going to blow it up for everybody to see. It says, Jesus was the founder and leader of a brotherhood. He chose different types of men from the common walks of life and pledged them to a lifelong devotion to his cause. He met them in secret places. Together they shared certain spiritual truths and practiced noble virtues. In solemn secrecy, Jesus revealed the deepest purposes of his heart. He outlined a philosophy for a good life and announced the ideals for a better society. Secret signs, symbols, and solemn ritual character, solemn ritual characterized their brotherhood. Okay, and this is the first place that alarm bells should be going off like crazy for members of the Church of Jesus Christ and Matter-day Saints, because basically what Sigma Chai is trying to establish is that Jesus established a fraternity. And that what they're doing is modeling what Jesus did and trying to draw people in under the auspices of following Jesus' example. Okay. This is like exactly the opposite of what you're taught as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And I'm going to show you that here right now. So in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, up until very recently, we were we were expected to use the King James Version. Just this year, they announced that we could use other versions. But the King James Version is the version that I grew up on. And here's what Jesus said in the King James Version in John 18.20. Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world. I ever taught in the synagogue and in the temple whither the Jews always resort. And in secret have I said nothing. So again, from the perspective of an organization that has a standard of following Jesus, who says that he has he's in secret he has said nothing, you're now attending an initiation that's telling you that Jesus had a secret brotherhood with secret sign and secret oaths, and you start splitting into what like the church would call a double-minded man, right? And I think I said in the other presentation, like you can't walk two directions. And so at this point, if you're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, particularly one who holds the priesthood, you now have to start choosing which direction you're going to walk. And you can't walk in both directions. You can only walk towards accepting what Sigma Chai is teaching you, or walking towards what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is teaching you. But what these guys try to do is they try to walk both directions, and you just can't do that. Okay. Um, there's also this issue that, you know, in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you have standards for what a prayer should look like. Okay. I'm not going to go over this one very carefully, but basically the idea is in a Sigma Chai prayer, they talk about worthily wearing the cross. And inside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the cross has been sort of a not controversial topic, but like the idea of wearing the cross has definitely been controversial and to the point where like there are no crosses on LDS churches, just like for so people can understand. So again, you have Sigma Chai telling you one thing and you have the church telling you another. And as a member of the church who has the priesthood, you have to start choosing between, am I going to do what Sigma Chai wants me? And they're not talking about worthily wearing the cross physically. That's not what they're talking about. But this, even this idea of symbolically wearing a cross, the Church of Jesus Christ says, look, that's not how we view the cross, right? We view the cross as an instrument of torture and death, and we want to focus on Christ's resurrection and the good news of that resurrection. And so you're just sort of torn philosophically here if you're a member of the church joining Sigma Chai. A bigger problem inside of this is this idea that in Sigma Chai prayers, they end those prayers by saying these words, so mote it be. And it was actually your show where we talked about this for the first time, Emma, and one of your viewers reached out in the comments and said that it's really weird that they use that because those are the words that witches, neopagans, and masons use when they're trying to seal a spell. So after they cast their spell, the words that they say to seal that spell is so mote it be. So again, in terms of like this mixing of like the occult and the philosophies of men mingled with scripture versus the pure gospel of Jesus Christ as presented to you by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Sigma Chai, as you go through their initiation is constantly putting you in positions where you have to choose whether you're going to compromise your standards in order to become a part of this brotherhood. Um, there's also the issue of uh the fact that Sigma Chai has its own sacrament. Okay. Inside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we we partake of the sacrament of the Lord's Supper every Sunday. It's a white cloth, and you put bread and water, and the priesthood holders bless that water. There's set prayers for that. But inside of Sigma Chai, they do something that is like the exact opposite, basically, of what you do as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So what you can see here is they they show you exactly how it's supposed to look. You have your candidates at the front of the room. All the members are around the other part of the room, and the consul stands about three feet away from the candidates. And here's how it works: it says the purpose of the Black Supper in the fraternity, or excuse me, it says purpose. The Black Supper in the Fraternity is a serious and solemn ceremony used as a preliminary introduction to the formal initiation. The primary purpose of this ceremony is to impress candidates with the seriousness of our teachings. It is a lesson in personal responsibility. The ceremony sets the scene for the quest, which is a wild goose chase. It's to go look for a cross that doesn't exist, a white cross that doesn't exist, and gives the candidate the encouragement of the chapter for the symbolic mission he will undertake. Well, what do you need to do a Black Supper? You need tables, a chair for each candidate, two or three candles for table, goblets and saucers, black cloth, bread and water, and black robes for members. Ideally, this ceremony should be conducted in a room large enough to accommodate the entire chapter, standing at one end as a group, and the candidates seated at a long table at the other end. So just as a like inside of every LDS chapel is what's called a cultural hall. And the cultural hall usually has a stage and a basketball hoop and that kind of thing. So theoretically, you could hold a Black Supper inside of a cultural hall of an LDS meeting house. And I would just suggest if that makes you, if you're a Mormon and that makes you feel slightly uncomfortable, there's probably a reason that it makes you feel uncomfortable. But theoretically, Sigma Chai could hold their Black Supper inside an LDS cultural hall according to their own rules. It says the members are to be dressed in black robes with hoods drawn over their heads. They should stand as a body facing the candidates with arms folded. Okay. And so again, you just have this dichotomy between what the sacrament really means to a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints versus this deviation from the standard of what the sacrament is into this kind of creepy thing where, as we go down further, you'll see that there is absolute silence throughout the ceremony. This is the first time the candidates should see the members in ritualistic robes. Conducting the ceremony in a place other than the chapter house is permissible, provided the secrecy is maintained and the place chosen is large enough to accommodate the entire class of initiates seated at one time, as well as the members of the active chapter standing. The consul, clad also in a black robe with his head bared, will stand alone approximately three paces in front of the chapter and deliver the Black Supper address from memory. The table is covered with a black cloth, okay, versus the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper, where it's covered in a white cloth. And for further effect, the walls of the room may also be draped in black cloth. Two or three candles placed on the table provide the only light in the room. Before each candidate is a small glass or a goblet of water and a small piece of bread cut in the shape of a square. The bread is placed on a small plate. The practice of certain chapters of providing special wear for the ceremony is commended. Okay, but the overall idea is is the Black Supper closer to the sacrament that these men were taking? So, like you have to imagine a Sigma Chai initiate from the member from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints going to a chapter initiation on a Saturday night and partaking of the Black Supper, and then on Sunday morning going and taking the Lord's Supper at the church, and it's two completely different experiences. And what I would ask is is the Black Supper closer to the Lord's Supper, or is it closer to something like the invocation of Abaddon, which is a satanic ritual, which is something that we're going to talk a little bit about a little bit further down, because Abaddon is closely related to soul and bones, I personally believe. And I would say that like you have deviated far enough away from the actual sacrament of the Lord's Supper by partaking of the of the Black Supper, that in my personal opinion, you probably shouldn't be holding the priesthood of God at that point or entering into a temple like a Mormon temple at that point. And that's just my personal opinion. But we just see that they're continually put in positions where they have to compromise their standards. Another issue is the issue of patronage. So inside of Sigma Chai, they have a patron who is our ancient patron, Constantine, who conquered by the cross. And then the consul says, brothers, guard well the honor of the cross. And they all say, the in hocksigno winches. And the consul says, brothers, we part in unity. And then again, they all say, So mote it be. Okay. So inside the church, in terms of the standard regarding patronage, is inside the church Zion, which is what the church is supposed to be building, there is no patronage. Everybody is equal and you share your things equally. Inside of a patronage network, you have a patron who favors you and gives you things like money or influence or power or gain if you're a part of the patronage network. And what I would propose is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints runs far more like a patronage network and far more like a fraternity than it does Zion. And that's largely because this group of men at the University of Utah from the early 1900s up through the present day have come through this fraternity system and have decided that they like the governance system of fraternities and they're not really interested in establishing Zion because fraternities do some things very, very well, including this patronage network, which really puts you into a pipeline where you have an advantage over other people in terms of like what career you have and what wife you get to choose and all these different kinds of things. And so, but it's another deviation from the standard. There's also this idea of graven images inside of Sigma Chai. Inside of Sigma Chai, they talk about lift your eyes heavenward and look. Well, first of all, they make you drop to your knees, and then you say, Lift your eyes heavenward and look. When disaster was imminent, in my despair I was inspired to forsake the gods of stone. I besought the God of the Christians for mercy. In answer to my prayer, the white cross appeared unto me in the heavens, and an angel said, Thou shalt make a representation of the sign thou hast seen. Of gold and precious stones shalt thou make it. It shall be thine emblem and the emblem of thy followers henceforth and forevermore. So they're talking about this sign of a cross made of gold and precious stones that God is commanding them to make. But what do the standard works say? Right? The standard says, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. That would include a cross. Okay. Sigmactai has its own signs and tokens. Um, one of the interesting things is on a forum where uh members Of the church or ex-members of the church hang out, there are some people who are in fraternities and sororities. And what this woman says is hey, just so everybody knows, the temple handshake, so inside of a Mormon temple, they have signs and tokens, and she says the temple handshake is nearly identical to the handshake for my sorority. And I think the really critical thing for people to understand here is what we have is a third witness to the fact that both fraternities and the Mormon temple are largely based on Freemasonry, because this temple handshake that's nearly identical in the temple and the sorority is also nearly identical to the handshakes that they do inside of Freemasonry. And so we have sort of a common route to all of these things, none of which is the gospel of Jesus Christ. Um, we have a problem because Sigma Chai members have to enter into what are called death oaths. The death oath in Sigma Chai is as this this requires more of you than the world requires of other men. Is it still your desire to become a member of this fraternity, knowing that your obligations are of lifelong duration? Okay, the candidates must make an affirmative answer. So no matter what happens in your life, to this day, if you go to the Sigma Chai's Terms and Conditions page on their website, it says membership in Sigma Chai is lifelong in duration. You can be expelled for good cause, but you cannot resign or disaffiliate. Once you accept the invitation to membership and proceed through the fraternity's ritualistic initiation, you cannot resign for any reason or circumstances. So they become like, I don't know how to exactly explain this, but like I think the best way to describe it is this Russell M. Nelson, who became the prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, had a governing body over him, even as the prophet, that would not allow him to disaffiliate from an organization that he had joined as like a 16 or 17, he was really young, like maybe 17, like when he joined Sigma Chai. And because he made that decision when he was 17, even though he was the leader of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, he still couldn't disaffiliate or resign from Sigma Chai because he had made an oath with them that allowed them to govern over him even more than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did. And if you can't see the problem of that as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I would really ask you to stop, pause this video, take some time and really think about what that means, especially when I showed you the kinds of decisions that were being made by these Sigma Chai guys inside the church. The last few things here really have to do with like false traditions. So I talk about Russell M. Nelson. Here's Russell M. Nelson in a picture smiling while they engage in this tradition, this Sigma Chai tradition, where Beverly Felt or the Sigma Chai sweetheart gets kissed by every Sigma Chai. Okay, not to get into it too deeply, but this is not up to gospel standards. This is not how men treat women inside the church of Christ, or how they're not supposed to. This is not how men are supposed to treat women inside the Church of Jesus Christ of Literary Saints, particularly priesthood holders. But in Sigma Chai, Russell and Nelson, a Melchizedek priesthood holder, is seen in the background grinning from ear to ear as Beverly gets kissed by every member of the fraternity. So to telling people what the standard is regarding that, it says the wicked one cometh and taketh away light and truth through disobedience from the children of men and because of the tradition of their fathers. Okay, so in my world, as a member, a former member of the church, when I see this happening, I start thinking about the idea that light and truth is being taken away from the church through disobedience of men like Russell M. Nelson. Okay. There's also this idea of robes. This is a Sigma Chi picture from Utah State University. These are the actual robes that these guys are wearing during the Black Supper and that kind of a thing. And I think really the main points I want to make are that what you have here is a situation of the blind leading the blind. Okay, I was told that this 23 is symbolic of the scapegoat. I don't really know that I exactly understand what that means, but we all know that fraternities call their initiates goats and make them do all kinds of crazy things and bad things related to goats as they're being initiated. And what we can see is that this fraternity brother is blindfolded and he's leading this goat straight off the plank instead of leading him on the path that goes up to the kingdom. And I think that's a really perfect um example of like what's happening at fraternities. And it's not that they don't know it, they're the ones who made this picture. They completely understand they're willfully deviating from the standards that they've been taught and living a different kind of life because that's the kind of life they want to live at this point. In other words, they're kind of rebellious as it relates to Mormons. Okay. So other people in other churches, I don't know what a fraternity is like, but inside of Mormonism, if you join a fraternity and you're doing these things, you're willfully rebelling against the standards that you were taught as a young man or a young woman. To sort of drive this home, there was an article written by a member of Sigma Kai at Michigan State. And I just want to go through this a little bit, um, where he talks about, he says, like all conformists, we did not think of ourselves as conformists. We were men, individuals and individualists. We knew what we knew. We prized life's lonier roads, we were hard guys to convince of things. We meant something and we knew it. Yet we also knew how to let down the gates for a good time when the right times came. We knew how to treat a woman, how to confide. We were easy in the company of men, we knew where to draw the line. Imagine our surprise then at finding an entire group of guys who felt as we did about practically everything. Now, notice that he says we knew where to draw the line. But now listen to this. It says, our bunch had standards. Okay, we've talked a lot about standards today. Here were the standards for Sigma Chi at Michigan State in 1963. It says to be initiated to Sigma Chai Michigan State 1963, you were still required to pick up a stuffed olive off the chapter room floor using nothing but the naked cheeks of your behind. And while many actives watched and cheered, deliver the olive to a small waiting Dixie cup. You still had to sit six hours straight on the hard edge of a hard chair, knees together blindfolded while someone played Ravel's bolero fortissimo directly into your ears. You had to do many, many, many painful push-ups. You had to let the older boys scream obscenities and insults into your face, blow cigar smoke in your eyes, and breathe on you until they were tired of it. You had to tramp out into the frozen Michigan night in search of nothing less than a white cross, the fraternity's sacred emblem, which of course wasn't there. You had to bray like a donkey, buzz like a fly, bleat like a goat, be scorned, scourged, ridiculed, and insulted until they let you join them. It must have seemed like a good idea. And so what I need people to understand is that as we move forward here and we talk about the men who lead the Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter day Saints, or led, who joined these, they were doing these exact same types of things. Okay, for example, I talked to a member of Sigma Kai from the University of Utah in the in the 1960s, late 1960s, early 1970s. And one of the things that they did is that they would take and they would fill up the chapter house with bubbles and soap up the floors and require all of the men to get naked and walk around and slide around inside the chapter and grabbing whatever they could grab and doing whatever they could. And so, like, as a member, as a former member of the Church of Jesus Christ's Lattery Saints, as a former priesthood holder inside the Church of Jesus Christ Lattery Saints, it makes me highly uncomfortable to know that the men I was blessing the sacrament with were potentially doing these types of things and then showing up the church on Sunday and partaking in what I consider sacred ordinances. Okay. So the question here becomes for me is when a person deviates from the standards to this extent, because they're engaging in what are called humiliation rituals, picking up a stuffed olive off the floor and transporting it to an olive cup is a humiliation ritual. The entire purpose of that is to humiliate you to a point where you are dependent on that person, like to not tell what happened, right? And so they're engaging in these humiliation rituals, and they're also engaging in what is called shame bonding. And so at the University of Utah, they're doing this shame bonding that leads all the way up to physical abuse. And this is about skull and bones. It says the order has a very distinctive pin, a gold skull and crossbones holding two ruby eyes. The senior society's pin, that's owl and key, depicts an emerald-eyed owl guarding a key. During initiation week, an attempt is made to humble the goats. Okay, so all this humiliation rituals and shame bonding is supposedly to humble people, which again is not the way that you humble people according to the gospel of Jesus Christ. But they say this is to humble the goats by a public display of unique and bizarre costumes. Everything from grass skirts to patch dresses and ancient roller skates will be worn by the hapless victims who are elected to this year. But it's not just that. It says the fraternity's colors are red and white, but some of the initiates of other years claim that they should be and in fact are black and blue. And of course, what they're referring to there is the fact that in order to become a member of Sigma Chi or a member of Skull and Bones, you have to be paddled or beaten into the organization. And so they're saying black and blue for the bruises that they get as they're um physically abused in order to become quote unquote brothers or part of the quote-unquote brotherhood here. The next question that always comes up in these conversations is Is hazing a form of ritual abuse? The answer is yes, it is entirely fair and widely accepted by psychologists, legal experts, and advocacy groups to categorize hazing as ritual abuse. So at We Are the People, they talk about like an entirely different kind of ritual abuse. Like they're talking about satanic ritual abuse, which is, I would I would propose is one end of the pole. At the other end of the poll, if you want to pick up both sides of that poll, you're gonna start with hazing. And I think that fraternities and the hazing, the emotional, mental, spiritual, and physical abuse that they perpetuate against their initiates is what I would consider like the most tame form of ritual abuse because it happens inside of the ritual process and the initiation and that kind of a thing. So now we have a bunch of men in Utah, at the University of Utah, participating in all these things, deviating so far from the standards that I'm not even sure that you can see the shoreline of the gospel of Jesus Christ anymore. And yet, despite that, they're still going to church on Sunday. And what we're gonna see is that they not only are at church, but they they get into positions over the years where they're literally leading the church. And then we can observe the fruits of what happened as it related to that. Okay. I have just a couple more things. We're gonna move from Sigma Kai to Skull and Bones, and then I'm gonna stop for questions again or comments. So just to drive home the point that University of Utah Skull of Bones was um directly descended from Yale. This is from the yearbook, the Utonian. It says Skull and Bones was founded at Yale University, and it they have a typo. It was 1832, and on May 18th, 1909, 11 men of the junior class of the University of Utah became charter members of the society at this school. Straight from Yale to the University of Utah. Okay. It's the most prestigious of the honor societies on campus. Skull and Bones boasts administrators and a United States ambassador. Okay. So then it becomes a question of is it really an honor society? And I would propose to you that it's much more than that. Because here's a picture of University of Utah Skull and Bones members showing up to an interview with the paper. And I've been a part of many honor societies in my life, but none of them have ever asked me to conceal my identity by putting on death masks and black robes. Okay, that's just silly. And anybody that thinks that an honor society is the type of organization where they want you to dress up in black robes and death masks in order to conceal your identity doesn't understand what an honor society really is. In addition to that, we're back to the point where we started here, where they're giving the university this picture of the mall sar skull. Okay, and we've already talked about how mall, these are the words that start with mall. It means bad or evil, malfunction, malaria, malformed, malnutrition, malnourished, malignant, malpractice, dismal, and malicious. And how the word sar in the Hebrew word means prince, ruler, leader, chief, captain, official. And the question becomes well, who are they referring to? And I think since the last time that we did a show, and even since the time that we did the show with um We Are the People Utah, I think I've identified who it is that they're referring to. And I believe who they're referring to is a character in the Bible by the name of Abaddon. And Abaddon is a bit of a tricky word, and I may not even be saying that right. So please forgive me if I'm if I'm mispronouncing that. But Abaddon is both a place and a person. Abaddon as a place is like Sheol. It represents hell. Okay. And Abaddon, at least according to apocryphal writings, um, according to the Catholic encyclopedia, Abaddon is a Hebrew word signifying ruin, destruction, place of destruction, the abyss, realm of the dead, it occurs personified as this and is rendered in Greek by this, denoting the angel prince of hell, the minister of death, and the author of havoc on earth. Okay, what I'm going to propose right now, and what I would like everybody to consider is that those who graduate from the minor leagues of Sigma Chi and go into the major leagues of places like um Allen Key, um Skull and Bones, and all these other sort of higher-level secret societies, what they're telling you when they show you this picture is that they are the chaos agents. They are those who are creating havoc on earth and serve the angel prince of hell, the Malsar, right? So I don't know of anybody else that has proposed this or believes this, and I'm open to people like sort of fighting me about it. It's a conversation that needs to be had. The thing I want to point out is that this book was published in 1907, okay, this encyclopedia, but it was already well known long before Skull and Bones was um put into uh Yale University in 1832. This concept of Abaddon as the angel prince of hell and the author of Havoc on Earth was well known to the founders of Skull and Bones at Yale University. In fact, they would have been uniquely positioned to understand who Abaddon was. And the thing that really makes me think that I'm right about this is that Abaddon shows up in the scriptures in in uh Revelation chapter 9, verse 11. So 9-11, which is Abaddon's demonology numbers. And Revelation 9-11 is what they call a mirror scripture of Genesis 3.22. So I think what you have here is some really clever guys, and you have to give it to them. This is very clever, but they have on their insignia the numbers 322, and then so that's their insignia, and then their mascot, if you will, is Abaddon, who points to Revelation 9.11. And the reason that those are mirror scriptures is that it's in Genesis 3.22 that sin enters the world, and it's in Revelation 9:11 that death or death, excuse me, death enters the world. And in Revelation 9:11, Abaddon, the angel of death, is the one who terminates death. Okay, as a servant of God. He's an angel of death, an angel prince of hell. So, anyway, that's a little bit off track, but I want people to understand that I think there's a real reason that the University of Utah Skull and Bones chapter used this specific picture. And I think it really does have to do with Abaddon and Revelation 9.11 in Genesis 3.22. So I'll stop there, Emma, and let you ask any questions or make any comments that you want to.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:36

Whew, man, this research is just, it's so it goes so deep. And it's really amazing how much you've put together with this, tying it all together. I can't even imagine the task at hand that you had doing this. But it is very fascinating just to see how so much of the research you in particular have done in the past, like how right you were on how these things are connected and how you can physically prove it through fraternities and the affiliations that some of these people that you've been exposing had long before you began researching their stories at the allegations of ritual abuse. And as adulthood, you know, it's it's just really fascinating. It shows how important history is and why they need secrets and secret societies and to change things and to leave things out and to alter things and invert it. They need to do that in order to keep all of this on the hush-hush and to help the cover-up of it. It's the exposure of all of this that ultimately leads to the root of ritual abuse. And so it's really fascinating uncovering it and tying it all together and seeing the relationships. And I mean, even just tying it to Yale, you know, again, that's a school that was that had MKUlture funding. That's a school that a lot of people were abused at that have been on my podcast. Um, so it's it's fascinating seeing, you know, all the interconnectedness of this and how you said these secrets, it's sort of like a testing ground. You know, how far is somebody willing to go? What are they willing to compromise? Are they willing to? Can we trust them? Are they going to be obedient? Can they keep a secret? You know, so you can see how these things look fun, like how you showed that picture of people partying next to that character behind them. They're holding beer. That's like the outward cover story that they want us to really latch onto with fraternities. There's just there are these benign, innocent, fun party houses, you know, like kids have fun at school, you know, but there's always that duality when you look at things that are occulted, and just when you look at the occult in general, there's always the duality of the cover story and then what's really going on, you know, and sure. It's very dark what's happening behind the scenes. And really, whenever you dissect these things that, and these are, I mean, these are these are still kids that are doing these rituals, like Black Suppers and wearing robes and death masks. I mean, it's just it's insane that that's even being introduced to 17 or not 17, you know, 19, 20, 21-year-olds, 18-year-olds, you know, college level. You're so young then to like be permissive to do this, you know, and it's just it's wild looking out of it, looking at all of it. So thank you for putting all this together.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:17

Of course. Yeah. I mean, so to your point, I was 17 when I was tapped to join um Capus Sigma at the University of Denver. Okay. So it is, it is literally like young, young boys. And I didn't join, I chose not to tap because of what they wanted me to do, these kinds of things. And I think one of the things that's just so weird about this entire journey for me is that I wasn't even really an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a 17-year-old boy when I went to the University of Denver, but I had grown up in the church. And when I got tapped to join this fraternity, I saw in front of me a path to power, influence, and gain. But then they're like, hey, we want to touch your private parts. And I was like, eh, like, I don't think I like if I ever want to go back to church, this is something I'm going to have to repent of in order to go back to church. And I didn't want that to get in my way of going back to church because I knew that within a couple of years I was going to have to make a decision about whether to serve a mission for the Church of Jesus Christ, the Literary Saints. So there's just sort of this irony that, like, at 17, I was confronted with this choice and made a choice not to join because of the church, even though I wasn't active, while active members were making the choice to compromise their standards and then ended up leading the church. So, anyway, that's sort of like a personal aside. But there's sort of this like weird thing that happened over the course of my life where like I was sort of ready for this research when it came because I had had that opportunity to join um this fraternity. I also went to Pepperdine University where I was working with a bunch of Braganites and I had access to the corridors of power. Like my professors worked for Governor Schwarzenegger, my professors worked for foreign countries doing policy analysis. And I got there and I got the same feeling I had when I was ready to join a fraternity of like, if I want to be a member of the church, in order to join this group of people, I'm going to have to compromise my standards in order to have access to that level of power, influence, and gain. And I turned away from that at Pepperdine. I left Pepperdine University. I didn't join a fraternity only to find out when I was 45 years old that all of these leaders of my church had made the opposite decision and had partaken of the Black Supper and said the secret prayers and pledged Constantine as their patron saint and then gone to Stanford or Harvard or Yale and made those compromises in order to gain access to the halls of or you know, these pyramids of power, I guess is what you could call them. And right now, what we're gonna do is we're gonna look at exactly where this led people to inside the church, like specific people, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:44

And interestingly, too, like you get excommunicated for doing the right thing, for speaking out, for trying to follow the standards of the church. Well, the people that rose were the ones that deviated.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:56

That's also literally, literally, the people who excommunicated me are the People. So uh Russell M. Nelson was the president of the church when I was excommunicated. He was Sigma Chai and claims to be uh Skull and Bones. I know he was Alan Key. I think he lied about being skull and bones. Long story, not going to go into it. Um, Elder M. Russell Ballard um specifically told me in an email that there weren't secret societies operating inside of the church, which I think technically is true. But at the time, seven of the 12 members of the of the Corona of the 12 were members of Pi Kappa Alpha, um, Sigma Chi, Skull and Bones, um, and that kind of a thing. And so, like, you can say that they like there's no secret society, but secret society members were running the church. So, yeah, there's an irony there that like I ended up getting excommunicated by these very men, right? Which is interesting. So, but it is what it is, and uh, and we are where we are. So um, so let's now look at some like some historical events. Like in this in the church, we have this saying, by their fruits ye shall know them. So we now we've established that there was a standard set out by the leaders of the church. We've established that there was a group of men and women who chose not to follow that standard and compromise themselves, which does not necessarily mean that they're corrupt, but we know that they compromised their standards. And everybody has their own opinion about like how far they compromise and how comfortable you are with the compromise. But we but everybody should be able to agree that they compromised their standards to be a part of this. And now we give it a couple decades and we start seeing the fruits of those choices. And we're gonna start um with something that's Mormon um sort of adjacent and tangential, and that's here at the Bohemian um Bohemian Grove, and its connection, its Mormon connection to the Stanford Research Institute. So you mentioned Yale and its um MK Ultra Connections. Stanford is another university that has lots and lots of um MK Ultra connections. And there was one person in particular, this is like a really cool uh website that shows like, you know, what percentage of the top uh companies had uh Bohemian Grove members as directors and that kind of thing. But what I want to point people to is right here. Down here it talks about the Stanford Research Institute was originally organized at the Bohemian Grove in 1939. The idea for SRI had been discussed for several years by three bohemians, Robert E. Swain, Philip Leighton, and Dudley Swim. And this is the one I want you to hold on to is Dudley Swim. Okay. Now, for those, if you don't understand what Bohemian Grove is yet, you really need to go to this website and take a look at it because what it's gonna show you is sort of the organizations like Atlantic Council, the Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, the Hoover Institution, Bohemian Club, and the Bechtel Complex, and all the people that are involved with this, and you're gonna see that it's the most powerful, wealthy people in the world. Okay, and including, you'll see that they actually explicitly show you. Can I find it? They actually will, oh yeah, here you go. So this guy, I don't even know who this is, George H. Foo Jr., what? Skull and Bones. So as we're going through this pipeline, you understand that it starts with Sigma Chi, Pi Kappa Alpha, something like that. It goes to Skull and Bones. Once you graduated, what I'm going to propose is it goes into organizations like Rotary International on the local level. And then depending on how good you are at this, and depending on how much you're willing to compromise your standards and potentially how much you're willing to corrupt yourself, you end up in places like the Bohemian Club at the Bohemian Grove, where they're burning effigies of children and lighting owls on fire and doing all kinds of strange things, doing things that you would not expect to find Mormons to do. So Dudley Swim himself was not a Mormon, but he lived in a place where he was surrounded by Mormons and he loved Mormons. And so he actually ends up hiring a man by the name of John Huntsman. John Huntsman was Sigma Chai and a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Okay, so hold on to that because we're going to come around and show you what happens when you get a Sigma Chai guy meeting with a Bohemian Grove guy in just a little bit. We're only two decades away from it. Before we go there, inside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints specifically, there seems to have been a major pipeline between Sigma Chi, Pi Kappa Alpha, any Greek organization, Skull and Bones, Alan Key, and Rotary International. And there's a really critical moment in church history where the church's president puts his thumb on the scales and he says there's a man, an apostle of the church who was Pi Kappa Alpha. His name is Richard L. Evans. And Richard L. Evans is a member of Rotary International. And he becomes sort of a regional leader of Rotary International. And President McKay stands up and says, the aims of Rotary are compatible with those of the church. And it would please me to see Richard rise to the top of Rotary International. So you have Pi Kappa Alpha, Richard L. Evans rising in the ranks through Rotary International, and David O. McKay throws it. So David O'Maye's son is also Pi Kappa Alpha. So President McKay is very closely tied to Pi Kappa Alpha. So you have these guys that are closely tied to fraternities and Rotary Initial saying, hey, this organization reflects the values and the standards of the church. At the same time, on the other side of this conversation, you have a man by the name of Ezra Taft Benson, who is really rising through the ranks of an organization called the John Birch Society, which is very conservative. And President McKay puts his thumb on Ezra Taft Benson and says, no, no, no, the values of the John Birch Society do not match the Church of Jesus Christ, Walter Saints. And I don't want you to rise to the top of that. And they take Ezra Taft Benson and they ship him across the world. He's also an apostle, and they assign him to Europe. And I think this is a critical hinge point in the history of the church that like 99.9% of church members have no idea. And the reason that that tipping point happened is because these men had joined Pi Kappa Alpha and then went on to be parts of organizations like Rotary International, which is the lapdog for the United Nations. One last thing I'll say about that is that this is like not a small disagreement. Ezra Taft Benson, an apostle who eventually became the prophet of the church, called the United Nations a satanic organization that was set up on the face of the earth to take away the agency of man. And so this idea that President McKay would say that the aims of Rotary are compatible with those of the church, while one of his apostles is saying that the United Nations is a satanic organization, creates like it shows you a picture of a divided kingdom. And what I'm proposing through my research is that this Rotary International Greek living group of people ended up dominating church leadership and controlling men like Ezra Taf Benson, who was no angel by any stretch of the imagination. But if we look at it historically, what we find is that this group of fraternity Rotary International men largely ended up running church governance. Okay. So here in 56, David O'Mae says it would be great if Richard L. Evans became president of Rotary International. 10 years later, that's exactly what happens. And here's a picture of Richard L. Evans right here, and he's with Prince Frainier and Princess Grace of Monaco. Okay. And they're in Nice, France. And so while this man is serving as one of the top 15 men in terms of power and influence inside the church as an apostle, he's also making inroads with like secular power in Nice, France, with princes and princesses. And that's what Rotary International does. Rotary International is really like there's a guy on Twitter who says it really well, and he says, local reach, international influence. That's not how he says it. I just messed it up. But the idea is basically you get a group of really prominent people from your community, and you can control that community, but then you're also part of a larger wheel that wields influence across the entire world, including at places like the United Nations. So the Mormon Church is deeply, deeply, deeply embedded in Rotary International through David O'Mackay, Richard L. Evans, and a future prophet called Spencer W. Kimball, who we're going to talk about. But before we get there, we're going to talk about Bohemian Grove again. So we already have Dudley Swim, who came up with the idea for Stanford Research Institute. And he has a son by the name of Gay Lord Swim, who converts to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and goes to Brigham Young University and becomes a really important part of this conversation a little bit later on. At the same time, we have a man by the name of David M. Kennedy, who I've done entire three-hour presentations on, who like magically rises through the ranks of everything that he does. And he ends up being at the Bohemian Grove, too. And so David M. Kennedy, the most important thing to understand about him is that he was the chairman of the Continental Illinois Bank, which was the first too big to fail bank, then went on to serve in the Nixon administration as the secretary of the Treasury. And that Nixon administration is extremely important, as we're going to show here coming up. But you can sort of see this all coming together in terms of like frat boys and people at places like the Bohemian Grove rising through the ranks of Mormon leadership. So in 1970, David M. Kennedy's at Bohemian Grove, but in 1971, the swim, the Dudley Swim connection to Bohemian Grove kind of comes to fruition because Dudley Swim gives John Huntsman his first job. Then Huntsman leaves that job and ends up in the Nixon administration. In 1971, Huntsman joins the Richard Nixon administration as a White House staff assistant and special assistant to the president. Because of their history, Huntsman acted as a bridge between the White House and the California industrialist, meaning Dudley Swim. Now, I'm going to stop here for one second because I just want to go back and remind people. Not everybody that joins a fraternity is corrupt. Everybody who joins a fraternity that's a member of the Church of Jesus Christ for Latter-day Saints has compromised their principles and deviated from the standards that they were taught, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're that they're corrupt. But what I want to show you is later down the road, when they get into positions of power and influence, here's the kinds of things that can happen. John Huntsman becomes a part of this bizarre plot inside the Nixon administration where they're selling ambassadorships to people like Bohemian Grove Dudley Swim. Says a bizarre twist in their story is documented in Nixon era records. President Nixon wanted to nominate Dudley Swim to become the U.S. ambassador to Australia. In exchange for the nomination, Swim was expected to deliver $100,000 in cash to the administration. The White House task fell upon John Huntsman, who was ordered to fly out to California to personally pick up the cash from his former boss. According to historical accounts and campaign logs, Swim initially resisted but eventually consented. Another way of saying that is that he compromised. However, the cash exchange never happened. Dudley Swim passed away suddenly at his home in Carmel on January 31, 1972, reportedly just a day before Huntsman was scheduled to meet him to collect the funds. I want to be really clear about a couple things. First of all, what John Huntsman was willing to do here was highly illegal. He's what they call the bagman for the Nixon administration. And what the Nixon administration was doing was highly illegal. And if Dudley Swim hadn't died the day before John Huntsman hopped in a plane and collected $100,000 in cash from him and brought it back to the Nixon campaign to use his campaign funds for his presidential campaign, John Huntsman would have been in federal prison for what he was willing to do. Okay, so we've gone from compromising to say, like so moti be in a prayer and partaking of the Black Supper to being willing to go to be the bagman for the Nixon administration. The other thing I want to make clear though, just in the sense of fairness, is that John Huntsman tells this story very differently. And John Huntsman uses this story as a sort of a faith-promoting story, where I, John Huntsman, was in the Nixon administration and I was asked to pick up $100,000 in cash from my mentor, Dudley Swim, and I had no idea what was going on. I couldn't, I couldn't figure out why he couldn't just write a check. But I was willing to hop in a plane and go do it. But luckily, Dudley Swim died a day before I did it, which kept me out of jail. And isn't God so good? Okay. And I'm going to let everybody sort of decide how they want to do that. But I am going to put my thumb on this too, because what everybody has to remember about John Huntsman Jr. is he's not a stupid man. Okay. He went to the University of Pennsylvania. He was a member of Sigma Chi. He was extremely successful in everything that he did. And I have a very hard time believing that John Huntsman didn't understand why he needed to go pick up $100,000 of cash versus having a check written to the campaign. So I'll also point out that John Huntsman started a cancer research society while producing products that cause cancer. Okay. John Huntsman is their biggest part of their business was like clamshales for Big Macs made of polystyrene, which is known to be a cancer-causing agent. So when John Huntsman says something, you have to kind of pass it through this filter of like what you're actually getting, knowing that John Huntsman is very good at keeping secrets because that's what you do when you're a member of Sigma Chai. The reason that this is so important as it relates to the Church of Jesus Christ with Latter-day Saints is that because he didn't get thrown in jail, John Huntsman becomes unbelievably influential and unbelievably rich and powerful to the point where he is. Okay, I said lending his plane to John Huntsman. And somebody hopped on in the comments and said he wasn't lending the plane. He was using the plane to pay his tithing for the church. So, like, okay, the point is John Huntsman becomes so powerful and influential that he's literally giving his jet to the leaders of the church who are also Sigma Chi members to travel around the world and open up countries like Russia at the behest of men like Armin Hammer, who was best friends with John Huntsman. Okay, so Huntsman is a like probably the central spoke. Huntsman and Marriott are the two Mormon Sigma Chi guys. And on the Pi Kappa Alpha side, you're probably looking at Richard L. Evans and Franklin Covey. Okay. And they're not enemies, like they're all friends and they're all part of the same network, but these are sort of the powerful people. But John Huntsman really should have probably been in prison. He got very lucky that he wasn't put into prison and ends up being sort of the concierge to the prophets of the of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The generation down from Dudley Swim is Gay Lord Swim. And Gay Lord Swim takes over Dudley Swim's Foundation and renames it to the God Family and Country Foundation. And you can see that it's directly tied to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, not in the sense like that they're legally tied to each other, but here's what they say the Utah-based God, family, and country has transmitted its donor intent across three generations with a common denominator of faith as a key ingredient. In this case, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Okay, so by the time Gaylord takes over in 1972, right after his dad dies, this is a very Latter-day Saint foundation. And one of the ways you can see that is that they set up this Sutherland Institute and they start donating money to themselves, basically, because the Sutherland Institute is Gaylord's institute. They also set up a school called American Heritage. Now, if you're here from We Are the People, Utah watching Emma's show today, you're going to recognize the name American Heritage immediately because American Heritage is another institution that has many, many abuse claims named against it. It's also the school where many Mormon apostles send their children and grandchildren to get their education. It's a very, very, I don't know if it's a private school. I don't know how you would classify it with all these different classifications of schools now, but it's a very exclusive educational institution. And it's all, its genesis is way back with Dudley Swim at Bohemian Grove and the Stanford Research Institute. One of the people that the GFC gives money to is another group called the Irene Institute, which is at Brigham Young University, which is basically modeled after the Stanford Research Institute. So Dudley Swim has the idea for the Stanford Research Institute, which is basically doing work for the government in all kinds of areas. And Gaylord sees that opportunity and says, hey, let's do that at Brigham Young University. And BYU gets involved in all kinds of military contracts related to all kinds of things that you wouldn't expect to see a church-run institution a part of. But this is the effect of compromising as young men, being given access to positions of power, influence, and gain. And all of a sudden you look like Stanford, you look like Yale, and you're making the same kinds of compromises as part of these organizations that are venerating, you know, Abaddon. It's a really bizarre, kind of hard to wrap your mind around situation, but the historical record is 100% clear that this is exactly what happened. Okay. So we could spend an entire three hours talking about the Irene Institute. There's a substack called um From High to Kolob, um, if I remember right, that talks about this in great detail and did a great series on this. So I would encourage people to go find that, but we just don't have time to cover it today. But you can see that this is just building and building, and these Sigma Chi guys are in positions of power in the church and in business and in government. They're in the Nixon administration, they're at Stanford, they're at Yale, they're doing all these things, and they're just getting more and more power because they made the choice to compromise their standards as young men by joining Greek living society, by Greek organizations. Inside the church, you have Rotary International president, um, or excuse me, Rotary International Mormon prophet Spencer W. Kimball, who decides that things aren't progressing fast enough in terms of the growth of the church. The church was largely set up for two purposes, if you read your scriptures. One was for the spreading of the gospel across the world, the second was for the establishment of Zion. Spencer W. Kimball is not happy at all with the pace of the growth of the church in terms of spreading the gospel across the world. So he gives this speech where he talks about lengthening your stride. And at the same time, he sets up several programs. Listen to who is inside of these programs. This says until the closing decades of the 20th century, Mormon or LDS was a term that meant little or nothing in a vast international arena. Political, religious, and social circumstances, inimical to missionary work, abetted this situation. However, beginning in 1974, the church mounted three unique initiatives to expand the outer edges of its stakes and missions. The appointment of who? David M. Kennedy, the guy who was in Bohemian Grove in 1970 with Ronald Reagan, gets put into the church as the church's ambassador at large. That is not a priesthood calling. Okay. What Spencer W. Campbell does is he sets up this church ambassador at large, and he sets up the International Affairs Office in Washington, D.C. And he puts David Kennedy and a woman by the name of Beverly Campbell in charge of these organizations that are what they call outside of normal priesthood channels, right here. These three unpublicized, so they're doing this secretly and quietly. These three unpublicized initiatives functioned outside normal priesthood channels, quietly renegotiating the outer boundaries of the church's international presence. This is sort of inside baseball. And so I don't know if people who aren't members of the church really even want to listen to this or follow along, but this is a huge problem. Everything inside the church is supposed to run through priesthood channels. But these men who joined fraternities and so and these women who joined sororities and these guys who were part of these commerce clubs like Rotary International and so on and so forth did not feel like doing things inside priesthood channels was delivering the results that they wanted to see. And so they start setting up programs inside the church office building that are outside priesthood channels. And lo and behold, when you run a church like a fraternity, it turns out that you can spread the gospel a lot faster because you have patronage patronage networks. So the church starts fulfilling its mission by running itself like a fraternity, and by the middle. 1970s, you are in full swing because you've had since 1910 to grow two or three crops of leaders that are now running the church, but it no longer looks like a church anymore. It now looks like a multinational corporation that in the year 2026 has over $300 billion in assets and is the second largest landowner in the United States of America. What they failed to do is do anything that looks anything remotely like establishing Zion, which we'll get to towards the end. But you sort of get the idea of what's happening here. Let me stop here, Emma. I've been talking for a while. Is there anything that you want to talk about where we stop here in 1974?

SPEAKER_01 1:50:37

Oh my gosh. My mind's just like blown at everything that you've pieced together because it's like piecing things together for me, too, on my end, that I didn't really realize like the depth of connection to, and then how it relates to the church and how you've researched how the LDS corporation is in cahoots with the CIA and just all the different webs to it. It's just like really painting like this big picture of like how in deep this religious institution is with very, very bad things. Um, and even like tying it into like Rotary Club, like you can go look up and try to piece together how Rotary and Freemasonry, quote unquote, like are directly connected. And you're gonna see that there's not a lot online with that. But one thing you can find is that among the founding members of Rotary Club are Freemasons. And so you can see that there's a link there, despite, you know, it's clear through testimony that these clubs all work together. Like they are all, you know, per testimonies. If you want to trust a million testimonies that all say the same thing, which I do, um, you can see that there seems to be a direct link between some of these smaller clubs, all the way down to the fraternity level, to Rotary Club, to Freemasonry. Um, but it's very fascinating how this all ties into what you're doing and how you can see like all these different stepping stones and how the same people have been taking all the same steps and like all the clubs are like working together. Like it's like this synergistic um that's above everything else that only they like really know about. But it's clear that like if you look up and you see it, it's super obvious that it's there, it's just hidden, it's occulted, and so it looks invisible to everybody. But it's just amazing, like looking at it from an overhead perspective, how you're doing, like you're bringing us up to the big picture of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:34

Yeah. So I mean, I think a very fair way to describe an organization like Rotary International is a group of men who belong to separate groups who have different standards, who want to appear as though they are reaching out to each other, but really it's all about self-interest. So they don't want to follow the standards of the organizations that they're a part of. So they form a rotary club so that they can deviate from those standards to achieve their purposes, which are largely financial and governance related. And so, like, I think that's an extremely fair way to describe rotary international. And you're gonna find, like you said, Freemasons, you're gonna find Episcopalians, you're gonna find Lutherans, you're gonna find Baptists, you're gonna find Mormons. But what you're gonna find about all of those is they're not the most faithful Mormons, they're not the most faithful Lutherans, they're not the most faithful Catholics or the best Masons. They like those organizations, but they want to deviate from those standards because they want to make money or they want to be a part of the United Nations and govern things, like the world, right? I think that's entirely fair to put that out there. And it's it's it would be a really interesting um thing to get your hands on a list of Rotary International members and classify them by these other organizations that they're a part of, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:53:44

I agree. And then one more thing I want to comment on before you move on, and this is just all so fantastic. You had brought up Stanford Research Institute and how it's tied into um government mind control, MKUltra. And that has probably been the university that has come up the most on my podcast in particular, as survivors having some type of affiliation, whether they're a little bit older and that uh and Stanford Research Institute still existed, and that was where they were taken for programming.

SPEAKER_07 1:54:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:54:17

Or if they were um later on born and the research done at Stanford Research Institute was used on, you know, like the the 30-year-olds, 20-year-olds that are coming out. Um, a lot of the things that that they're going through today were developed through universities like Stanford. And so it's just it's fascinating. And on that graph you brought up, um, you brought up it's it said Bechtel Corporation, that has come up on my show as being an organiz a cover organization for human trafficking. Um, so it's just it's really fascinating, just like seeing all of this and how it ties into a bigger picture.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:52

Yeah, and so what people need to remember is um the mayor of Palo Alto, where Stanford is, was a Mormon apostle by the name of David B. Hate, who was a member of Pi Kappa Alpha. Okay. So it just kind of like it just never ends, right? Everywhere that you you have these abuse stories and these MK Ultra things, you're finding, and the whole Stanford thing started with the railroads. Okay, like it was Leland Stanford that drove the golden spike in the Transcontinental Railroad in Salt Lake City. It wasn't Brigham Young, but Brigham Young was the one who made the deals with Leland Stanford and Union Pacific, the Harriman. Harriman was skull and bones. So it goes all the way back to the founding of Utah, and then you end up with the Stanford Research Institute and it's little mini-me, the Irene Research Institute, and you have Skull and Bones at Yale and it's Mini Me in Utah. And Utah is this incredibly important piece of the puzzle. And I think people are just beginning to understand this in 2026 because they see Utah making all these really weird decisions related to immigration and 15-minute cities, and they were so big on the um, the church was so big on vaccination during the pandemic. And what I'm saying is you don't have to be confused about that because we've now done the research that shows, well, yeah, like Stanford Research Institute and Irene Institute look the same because Dudley Swim started Stanford Research Institute and his son Gaylord Swim gave millions of dollars to Irene Research Institute. And yeah, like MK Ultra stuff happens a lot inside the Mormon Church because the mayor of Palo Alto, where Stanford is, was David B. Hate, who was a Pi Kappa Alpha member, along with Stephen Covey. And Dudley Swim was funding Stephen Covey's work, right? The the seven habits of highly successful people, as well as the Huntsman work, you know, and it all fits together if you'll just take the time to look at the actual history. Instead of like a big problem inside the church is that they whitewash all this and they just tell you, we were pilgrims and we're industrious and we stand apart from the world. But what you find is they don't stand apart from the world at all. They are so deeply enmeshed in all of these sort of dirty, nasty things that like I consider are those Abidonian, if you want to, institutions that are creating chaos and war and trying to control people's minds and overthrow governments. And right in the middle of it is Utah and all of its leaders. And now we've traced it back. We know the genesis of it is the Greek living system at the University of Utah, by and large.

unknown 1:57:29

Okay?

SPEAKER_02 1:57:29

100%. Yep. All right, let's keep rolling along. I know this is a long presentation. I appreciate everybody hanging in here.

SPEAKER_01 1:57:36

It's so fascinating. It's awesome. Thank you for putting this together.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:40

Of course, of course. So in April 1974, Spencer Kimball announces hey, we're not moving fast enough. I'm going to introduce you to David Kennedy. He's going to help us open up the doors. And of course, he can do that because he was the Treasury Secretary. So he knows all the highest leaders around the world. It's just not through the church anymore. It's now through this um this program that's outside of priesthood channels. By October of 1974, they're meeting with Nelson Rockefeller, the vice president of the United States. And Rockefeller is telling them: hey, the Arabs are the world's new capitalists. And who's he talking to? He's there with Wallace F. Bennett. The Bennett family is like the biggest fraternity family inside the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints. They're Sigma Chi, they're Pi Kappa Alpha, they're skull and bones. And of course, the Bennett's like they were senators for Utah for years and years. And pretty much anything you can tie to Utah politics is going to go through a Bennett at some point. But that's who Rockefeller is meeting with. He's meeting with, where is it? Here it is. Rotary International Kimball, BYU president, and gold bricker. Remember the gold brickers? Dellon Oaks is a gold bricker, so he was willing to physically abuse people as a youth. Other Mormon leaders, who else are we talking about? Where is it? It's Garn. Where is Garn? Oh, yeah, here we go. President Ford has scheduled a trip to Salt Lake to campaign for Garn. And Rockefeller leaves this with a Garn for Senate. Garn, what fraternity is he a part of? Sigma Kai. So now you're really seeing this congeal into a very coherent picture and a very easily understandable narrative. The world sees that the Arabs are the world's newest capitalists. Fraternity guy Rockefeller, like Council on Foreign Relations, I don't know if he's Council on Foreign Relations, but he's a part of all of these organizations. Comes to Utah, spends time with all the frat boys, the elite Americans, and he's going to clue them in on hey, this is how this is going to work. And how does that look in Salt Lake City? Well, by 1977, the president of the church is leaving church-related meetings at the temple to meet with CIA assets, the Khashoggi family. Okay. The story behind this is that last year or two years ago, now they released Spencer W. Kimball's journals, and I was reviewing them, and I had another researcher reviewing them. And at the end, we compared our page count, and we were one page different. So we had to go through every single page. And what I found is that in my copy, there was a Wednesday, June 8th, 1977 entry that says, held a meeting of the first presidency at 8 o'clock this morning at 9:45 a.m. I excused myself from the meeting and met with a Dr. Mohammad Khashoggi and members of his family from Saudi Arabia who are here for the dedication of the new international center that is being erected out west of the Salt Lake City Airport. These gentlemen contributed 11 million two years ago towards the construction of this center. Okay, this is really important. Who are these gentlemen that contributed $11 million in 1975? Well, I'll tell you who it was. It was Adnan Khashoggi, who was the most notorious CIA asset from the Middle East because he was a gun runner. Like he was he was the center of Iran Contra, the Iran Contra scandal. And so what you have now is the president of the church leaving church-related meetings to meet with CIA assets who are known drug drug users, like not drug users, like drug um dealers, arms dealers, um massive prostitution and human trafficking problems. And this Rotary International president of the church is leaving church meetings to meet with the Khashogis. Not only that, but if you'll remember, one of these programs that they started outside of priesthood channels was run by a woman by the name of Beverly Campbell. And look what Beverly Campbell was doing in 1977. In her memoirs, she says about the sale of a house. We needed to proceed. Our Saudi Arabian investor had put up $50,000 in earnest money. So in 1977, after Nelson Rockefeller tells everybody that the Arabs are the new capitalists, Beverly Campbell, who's running a program for the church that includes buying a house that's that backs up to CIA's Langley in Virginia, that they call the embassy, has Saudi Arabian investors giving her $50,000 in earnest money as a partner to purchase plantation land in Virginia right around the Central Intelligence Agency. So make of that what you will, but I see a pretty um, I see like those dots don't seem too hard to connect to me. Okay. By 1981, it all kind of blows up. Um, this deal where Adnan Khashoggi was the founder and primary investor of the triad center. Um, it all falls apart because he gets caught um as an arms dealer as part of the Iran Contra um scandal. The other thing to know about Adnan Khashoggi is that he is a known associate of Jeffrey Epstein. Okay. So one of the first people that Jeffrey Epstein sort of cuddles up to and is doing work with is Adnan Khashoggi. So now you've got sort of a tenuous link between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Jeffrey Epstein, but I'm going to show you an even better connection coming up here in just a second. Before we do that, we could ask the question: was the church ignorant about who Adnan Khashoggi was? Or are they complicit in utilizing Adnan Khashoggi to develop Salt Lake City? It says, with these deep ties acknowledged, the probability shifts significantly. If the church's network was that tightly intertwined with federal and intelligence landscape, it forces a different interpretation of the Khashoggi relationship. One, plausible deniability versus ignorance. Institutional intelligence is compartmentalized. While the first presidency as a formal body might not have been handed official CIA briefing binders, individuals within the church's leadership and advisor networks almost certainly understood who Khashoggi was, not just as an arms dealer, but as a crucial Western asset in the Middle East. Two, calculated risk. Khashoggi was heavily protected by the U.S. government through the 1970s and early 1980s because of his backroom deals, explicitly served U.S. Cold War interests. For Utah and LDS leaders, partnering with a man who was essentially a shadow extension of U.S. foreign policy wasn't seen as a risk. It was viewed as a venture backed by the highest levels of global power. Number three, the unforeseen betrayal. What likely did blindside leaders was that Khashoggi did backroom deals, but that he got caught in a massive scandal, Iran Contra, that collapsed his liquidity, forcing a sudden and public bankruptcy. So the question that arises from this is was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints tightly intertwined with the federal and intelligence, it's the federal intelligence landscape? And I think pretty much anybody who's watching this is going to know that the answer to this is yes. From the very moment that the Central Intelligence Agency was in existence, because largely because of their ties to Yale, like the Central Intelligence Agency is largely known as a Yale uh school reunion. But because Utah had such deep ties to Yale, the CIA became a place where a disproportionate number of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints became a part of the CIA and the FBI and eventually the NSA and the DHS and anything to do with American intelligence. One document that shows this really quickly comes from 1984, where CIA, Office of Personnel Representatives, traveled to Brigham Young University to recruit and meet with senior officials of the Mormon Church. Okay, please note they were meeting with senior officials of the Mormon Church. Those are the pot the apostles of the church who have responsibility for Brigham Young University. They were there to discuss agency recruitment of church members. Those church leaders indicated its endorsement of the agency's mission and its elders' plan to meet and address any concerns about our recruiting effort and its undercutting of the church's image. And they did it anyway. And they did it knowing that they were dealing with men like Adnan Khashoggi. Okay. They knew that eventually you end up with a situation where I don't know if I have it in here, so let's just talk about it. It undercuts the church's image because the man responsible, one of the two men responsible for the torture programs at Guantanamo Bay, was a Mormon bishop. Okay. The lawyer who made it all legal, who declared it legal, was a Mormon lawyer who then got a job as a federal judge by the name of Jay Bibe. So this is not a casual thing. This is not a casual relationship between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Central Intelligence Agency. They are deeply embedded and they understand each other and they know what's going on. The CIA was very aware of Dallan Oaks. You can find documents from the CIA reading room talking about Dallan H. Oakes is the president of Brigham Young University. At the time, the Irene Research Institute is being spun up. And hey, he's somebody that we can work with. And in the end, Dallan Oaks doesn't accept the invitation to that particular meeting. But Dallan Oakes is definitely, definitely known by the CIA. Not only that, he's also known by a really good friend of President General Gerald Ford, excuse me, who is on the record saying we should use clergy as intelligence gathering assets for the Central Intelligence Agency. And Dallin Oakes' mentor talks about this relationship between this lawyer and Dallin H. Oaks and how well Dallin H. Oakes is known to this guy. It's not a casual one-off thing at all. They're deeply embedded. Dallin H. Oakes is on the Union Pacific Board of Directors, just like Brigham Young was on the board of directors, just like so many members of the church, leaders of the church have been on the board of directors for the Union Pacific. And then we get to a place where things get really kind of spooky. In 2004, um, there were there was an extra apostle during the year because apostle number 82, David B. Haight, dies, and apostle number 94, David A. Bednar, is called. But if you look at the year 2004, in that year, the quorum of the 12 apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints looks exactly like a University of Utah Skull and Bones chapter. And let me tell you what I mean. At a University of Utah Skull and Bones chapter, what you expect to see is an approximately equal number of Pi Kappa Alpha and Sigma Chi members, somebody outside there that's like really popular, a guy that maybe has a really good reputation as a smart guy, that kind of thing. And what you have in the quorum of the 12 is David B. Haight, who's Pi Kappa Alpha. You have James E. Faust that I didn't highlight, but James E. Faust was the leader of the Cottonwood stake of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints that has the highest per capita number of men who joined Sigma Chi than any other stake in the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day Saints, except for maybe the Harvard Yale um uh group. So James E. Faust knows all the Sigma Chai guys, and he's like this one of the senior apostles. Neil A. Maxwell was a CIA employee, Russell M. Nelson was Sigma Chai, Dallan A. Jokes was a gold bricker, M. Russell Ballard was Sigma Chai, Joseph B. Worthland was Sigma Chai, Richard G. Scott was an extremely brilliant man who worked on nuclear submarines. Robert D. Hales was Pi Kappa Alpha and Stolen Bones. And then Jeffrey Holland, Henry B. Iring, Dieter Ukdorf, we don't know as much. Jeffrey Holland went to Yale for graduate school. Henry Benyin Iring. Benyon is a huge fraternity name. And his dad was a Princeton professor. Um Dieter F. Uchdorf was one of the first foreign apostles that was called from Germany, worked for Luthanza, who has intelligence ties, but I don't know if there's any tie to Dieter there. And then the last one is David A. Bednar, who was a gold breaker. So your quorum of the 12 apostles, the highest governing body of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, looks exactly like a University of Utah Skull and Bones chapter in the year 2004. Now, I happen to be an analytics guy for my profession. And so I created a stochastic model to identify what the probability of having any at any point in history, having seven members of the quorum of the 12 be explicit members of fraternities, one a member of the CIA, and one like the leader of all the Sigma Chai guys in the church. And I can tell you, I've run that thing several hundred times now. Through random selection, there is a 0% probability that you would ever see a quorum of the 12 apostles constituted in the way that it was in 2004, which leaves us with only a couple options. The church claims that the apostles are called through revelation. What that means is that God favors people who engage in humiliation rituals, shame bonding, mental, emotional, and physical abuse, and then compromise their standards all the way through their careers to join organizations like Bohemian Grove, start things like the Irene Research Institute, start programs outside of Priesthood Channels, so on and so forth. And that was God's. Plan. That was like God chose these men. The other option is they chose each other, which I think is probably the more realistic choice. If we're just going to use Occam's razor on how to explain how you got a corn with the 12 apostles that looked the way that it did in 2004. I'm going to stop here because this is a really important piece of information. I want people to understand. So, like let me before I stop, Emma, I'm just going to I want to explain this. I am left-handed and blue-eyed, Justin Riggs. I'm left-handed and blue-eyed, which makes me like there's like 1% of the population. Having a quorum of the 12 like this is like a hundred times less likely than having a quorum of the 12 apostles that had seven left-handed blue-eyed members in the quorum of the 12 apostles. Because there's that less, like there's like there's only like 10,000 people to choose from in the entire population of the church that were fraternity guys. And there's more of us that are left-handed and blue-eyed. So it's more likely that you would find a quorum of the 12 apostles with seven left-handed blue-eyed apostles than finding a quorum with seven fraternity members in the quorum at the same time. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 2:13:17

Oh, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And it especially when you look at the second part of the question of the hypothesis that you presented of is this God's will or is this people choosing people like them? And historically, that is what that's just how people are. You know, birds of a feather flock together. There's a reason why there's that saying, you know, and you see that over and over again in these networks, too, that these people, you know, when we're introduced to these crimes being exposed in the news, let's even just say, you know, the David Hamlin case to relate it to things that we're talking about today. You know, they sort of paint him out to be this like Lone Ranger that went out and committed all these horrific crimes, and they they focus on him and don't connect it to the rest of what people like you have have connected it to. And so society has this idea when they see a crime that this one person did these horrible things. What an evil mother effort, you know. Thank goodness that they either put him away or exposed him or whatever it is, you know, and now that he's taken care of and he's exposed, we can just wipe our hands clean and get on our way, even with Epstein, you know, and they fail to show the big picture, and that is all by design. But when you look at all of this and you see how intelligent these networks are, like you said, these aren't stupid people, you know, these aren't the homeless people on the street hanging out in the alley waiting to jump out and you know, steal your wallet and traffic you like these are very resourceful people. You mentioned somebody that was lending a jet or had a jet rented by the church. I mean, these are like very resourceful, wealthy, successful people that have all the resources in the world. And those types of people can do a lot of good. And that's what we always hope, and that's how they present themselves that they're doing all this good with what they have. But what we find often is that with you know, you get people, you get money in the hands and resources in the hands of the wrong people, and they do the exact opposite with the cover of going to church and doing all these good things, philanthropy through the Freemasons or Rotary Club, you know, they can put on a good mask to make it appear that way. And that's where we see them flocking together, like, wow, look at this group of upstanding men doing these great things for our church and our community. But when you look at it from this perspective, you see how it's so inverted and that bad good people can flock together to do really bad things too, very corrupt and evil things to continue with their power and success.

SPEAKER_02 2:15:49

Yeah, such a great point. And I think like it's it's it's it's it's unbalanced. In the case of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Utah, what you end up is in a very unbalanced situation because you had two goals. One was to spread the gospel to all the world. And the fraternity guys just they just they deserve all like all the credit in the world because they exploded that. And the church, the church explosive was, it was like the church growth was explosive. The real estate holdings was explosive. All the things that frat guys are good at, the church excelled at during this period because the guys running the church were frat guys. But there's an entirely other part, like there's another another goal about establishing Zion. And the thing that frat guys are the worst at is establishing Zion societies because they believe in chain bonding. They believe in humiliation rituals, they believe in mental and emotional and physical abuse, leads to humility, which leads to brotherhood. And that is the exact opposite of what a Zion society is. So what you have now in 2026 is a church that is terribly imbalanced. Okay, and it's run almost exclusively like a fraternity and not at all like a religion anymore, which is how I got sucked into this because I couldn't understand why the church, quote unquote, was treating abuse victims like CEOs instead of like Jesus Christ would. Okay, that's what started this entire thing, is my observation and my lived experience of dealing with church leaders who were acting like frat bros. And I didn't realize it at the time, but that's what they were acting like. They were acting like fraternity brothers instead of representatives of Jesus Christ. And so you just have this terrible imbalance inside this organization. And you start seeing things like ritual abuse comes up inside the church in 1991. Well, who's in charge of looking at ritual abuse? It's uh Russell M. Nelson, Sigma Chi, and it's James E. Faust, the state president, over all the Sigma Chi guys. If I was a victim of ritual abuse, the last person in the world I would want investigating my ritual abuse would be those two men. Okay. But that's what you have inside this fraternal church. You also have uh the church breaking laws, and they get caught eventually. So for like 20-something years, they're breaking the law, and the SEC finally catches them because they're using the church's money to invest in things like pharmaceuticals, weapons companies, um, like fast food, like I mean, just all the kinds of things that you would never expect to see a church investing in. So they made the church hundreds of billions of dollars, but they did it using the widow's might to do it, which is something that a fraternity guy would do, but maybe not a disciple of Jesus Christ potentially. You get them changing the definitions of of religious words. This is a Mormon by the name of Connor Boyak, who's fairly well known inside of church circles. And he he made a video not two weeks ago about how the church has changed the definition of the word apostasy. And what does apostasy mean in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now? It doesn't mean abandoning your faith, it means going against the leaders of the church, which is exactly how our fraternity operates. So now you have a religion that's running itself like a fraternity and kicking people out of the church, not because they've abandoned their faith in Jesus Christ. Um I didn't get kicked out of the church of Jesus Christ on Saturday since I was kicked out for apostasy. That's the official reason that I was kicked out of the church. I wasn't kicked out of the church because I lost my faith in Jesus Christ. I was kicked out of the church because I wouldn't follow these men who partook of the Black Supper. I wouldn't follow these men, I wouldn't sustain these men who hopped in bed with the Central Intelligence Agency, I wouldn't fall in line and get in my lane when I started realizing what they were doing and started talking about the fact that they were protecting a sexual predator by the name of Gordon Bowen. So, but because they changed, they have the right to change that definition of the word because they run the church now. But am I truly an apostate? Did I lose my faith in Jesus Christ and the faith that I grew up with? Um I did not, but I do not trust these men who run the church or who ran the church during this time period. And and I cannot be a Zion people with them. I cannot see, I am not of one heart and one mind with people who believe that you should have somebody bend over and smack them on the ass so that they'll be your brother and your friend. I will never be of one heart and one mind with you. I don't agree with getting in bed with the Central Intelligence Agency while they overthrow governments and try to control the minds of my fellow brothers and sisters. We will never be of one heart and one mind. I won't break laws on your behalf so that you can make $350 billion. Okay. So when all is said and done, uh I unfortunately got tossed out of the church for apostasy by a bunch of apostates, it appears. And that like the irony there is so thick that I can cut it with a knife, but it is what it is. These are the kinds of things that they're doing. They're changing the definitions of scriptural words. As they start to die off, you can sort of see that things start falling apart a little bit. John Huntsman goes to Armenia after a this is how the church got access to Russia. There's an earthquake in Armenia and it kills a ton of people. And this opens up the door for John Huntsman and Armin Hammer to do some philanthropy over there. And the church says, Hey, John, because they have the Sigma Chi connection and all these and these government connections, they say, Hey, we really need to get in there to preach the gospel. Can we come along? And John Huntsman ends up really regretting this decision, but he lets the church come along and they kind of take over the show, and John Huntsman gets upset about it. He writes about it in his um autobiography. Anyone can go read that story. Um, and they set up the church in Armenia, which actually becomes a flourishing community. But when their patron dies, remember patronage? When John Huntsman, Armenian, the Armenian church patron dies, that that part of the church completely collapses. And when you dig into that a little bit, what you find out is the return missionaries are saying, oh yeah, the Armenian version of the mafia was using the church as a front for all of their organization. And when their patron dies, the church just completely collapses and goes from having a stick to being three tiny little branches because it wasn't set up properly, because it was set up like a fraternity network, not a church. Okay, you end up with a prophet, a Sigma Kai slash maybe skull and bones prophet, Russell M. Nelson, calling the vaccine a literal godsend and telling the members of the church that in order to be quote unquote good global citizens, they need to inject an untested product into their bodies that the church just happens to be invested in at like four times what they were invested in it before the pandemic started. So he's telling people to take a product that they're invested in that they made hundreds of millions of dollars off of. Is that what a leader of the church does, or is that what a fraternity guy does? And now you're in this horrible situation, an awful situation where once you know these things, you don't know who to trust anymore because Russell M. Nelson is famous for saying there are 15 men on the face of this earth that you can trust completely, meaning him and these other guys that all end up being fraternity guys that have been keeping secrets about abuse, shame bonding, humiliation rituals, doing business with the Central Intelligence Agency, meeting with arms dealers, so on and so forth. And now as a member of the church, you're out there looking and you're saying, he says I can trust him, but he's telling me I have to be something called a good global citizen. It sounds a lot like Rotary International in the United Nations, which I was told by another apostle is satanic in nature. And you don't know where to turn anymore. You don't know what to do. And that's really the fruit of these decisions that these men made is a lack of trust. You also have them going to Disneyland with men like Gordon Bowen, the sexual predator. Here's Gordon Bowen. This is an apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. His name is Elder Cook. This is an apostle to the church, his name is Dieter Uchtdorf. This we think is an apostle by the name of Elder Anderson. This is an apostle by the name of Gary Stevenson. This man was not an apostle while he was at Disneyland with the sexual predator, but he's an apostle now, his name is Gerald Cosey. He was in charge of all the church's temporal affairs as the price presiding in the presiding bishopric. Okay. So, but why are these men hanging out at Disneyland with a sexual predator? Well, it's because he's a world-famous advertising executive that gives them access to all kinds of resources that they wouldn't have if they didn't protect him. But the problem is, this man abused children in the Church of Jesus Christ without these things, the very children that these men are supposed to be protecting. And instead of meeting the needs of the children that he abused, they're telling people that come to them and say, Why are you doing that? They're saying, Well, we really need Gordon. Gordon is the only one who can help us improve the image of the church. And I would just propose if you get to a place in your life where you think the only person that can help you improve your image is a sexual predator who preyed on the very children that you were supposed to be protecting, you have lost sight of the goal. The last piece here, and then we're almost done, is we're going to come back to Epstein. I actually have the unredacted version of this, but we've been talking about the Huntsman's a lot. It's not just John Huntsman's scene here that we've been talking about. The next generation down is John Huntsman Jr., who some people might know about. He's been an ambassador, which seems kind of interesting when you realize that his dad was the bad man collecting money for people to become ambassadors. He's also Sigma Kai, and it just so happens that he's in Epstein's black book. This is the redacted version of the black book. I have the unredacted version. So maybe one day I'll call John Huntsman and ask him about why he was in um Jeffrey Epstein's little black book. But this is sort of the terminus. Okay. We started back with church leaders laying out standards, and then we saw a bunch of church leaders not follow those standards, and then we saw things get worse and worse and worse. And where we end is with John Huntsman, Sigma Chai John Huntsman, inside the black book, the little black book of the worst predator that the world is knows about, probably not the worst predator ever, but the worst one that we've known about in the last decade for sure, Jeffrey Epstein. And that's sort of where our picture wraps up there. Before I do my conclusion here, which is sort of geared towards Mormon people anyway, is there anything else you want to add or any questions that you have, Emma?

SPEAKER_01 2:27:20

I just want to commend you, Justin, on your integrity. I think anybody who's watched you over the years, as I have, and and as others have followed you, and I'm so grateful that your following's growing, you've never been one to compromise, no matter what. And you have a story of your own. I know you haven't told it on this podcast, but it's out there for people who want to hear it. You could have easily turned into one of these people. And your whole life you have been fighting to do right and to overcome. And I'm just so impressed with you. And I think it's a badge of honor that these people took your research and the things that you were digging into and wanting to make right, and that they gaslet you because of it, because it just shows who they are. It's never showed who you are. And your devotion and your willingness and desire and passion to want to make things right, even despite that, you could have just like moved on and you're still fighting to make things right for the people who are still in that church, for the children who are still in there, despite that church betraying you. And I just want to commend you on that because you're right. It is, there does beg the question, is this a church or is this a fraternity? And I think your research makes it very clear what it is. And it also is very sad because it's almost as if it's like hearing these versions of stories of survivors talking about narcissistic and psychopathic relationships where they idolize their parents or church leaders just to find out that they were abusive. And that's the problem that we have, right? We have been so brainwashed in so many ways to idolize people for who they show us as their cover. And it's heartbreaking for these people who have followed these people their whole lives who were born into this, as you have, to possibly face the fact that people that they admired and that they followed their whole life and looked up to could possibly have even one of their fingers dipped into one of these crimes and corruptions that you and others are now exposing. And you could have easily looked away too and just went with it because this was your beloved home, because this was a place of comfort for you, because this was this was your community, and you risked everything to help do right, knowing that there's still victims in there that went through things like what you did and what these survivors speaking out did. And I just really want to commend you for that because there's not many people who would do that. Even the leaders of this damn church would rather shake shake hands with each other than help protect the innocent and vulnerable. And yet the people that they are excommunicating from the church, you and I know there's many others that have tried to step up and speak up against one issue or another to make something right in the church, and the same outcome for them. You know, you look at Jason and Alexia going through all these lawsuits and and being criminalized and gaslit by the church, you know, and it takes a really amazing, incredible person with the highest morality and integrity to still stand up to all of that, knowing that they could lose everything that they know and loved. And I know how passionate you are about this. Nobody loves this church more than you. And they betrayed you in every way, and you still fight tooth and nail to make things right for the people that are still in there and not in a malicious way, in such a like a compassionate and caring way, despite the fact that they tried to criminalize you and make you sound like you were doing wrong. And I'm just like, I'm always so impressed by you. And I just want to shine a light on that because I hope other people see that, you know, like these presentations are not these malicious things. They're they're there's such a deep caring that you bring to the table of knowing that there's still so much suffering happening and that we can all come together and make like we could all come together today and make this right in an afternoon if we wanted to, if we all work together, you know, like it could be restored and there could be a wonderful place that people could go without having to worry about their children being harmed or people, you know, hard commun hard conversations being excommunicated, you know, like and I just I I really pray that people continue to rally around you and see that your intentions for doing this are genuine and with integrity, and that you do it because you care so deeply about what this church means to you and what you know it could be. And so I just I just wanted to take a moment to just shine a light on you. Um, because I I get emotional listening to you talk about a lot of this stuff because I feel that more than anything else. I feel your love and passion for the people in this church and for this organization, despite what they did to you. And um, my I just tip my hat to you.

SPEAKER_02 2:32:18

I mean, I I appreciate that so much, Emma. There's like a couple things I want to say as I conclude. I mean, the very first thing is like, I don't ever want anybody to think that um I'm any different like than I mean, like I appreciate like this whole thing about the integrity. I I consider myself a person of high integrity. Other people have noticed it. Like, I there's a guy who wrote a book and he put in his in his in his foreword of that book, he mentions my integrity. And so I appreciate you recognizing that. And like, and I I want to like, I don't want to say don't say that, but like what I don't want people to do is like turn me into something that I'm not. Like I'm a deeply flawed human being. And at some point, a lot of that might come out because like I'm involved in some really messy situations in my personal life, and and there's some people who don't think that I have a lot of integrity, and they're and that all might eventually pour itself out. And what I don't want is people to put me on some sort of pedestal that I don't deserve to be on, only to have that pedestal knocked out by these fraternity guys who are so good at doing that and taking your attention away from the facts that I'm presenting and putting your attention on me as a human being. Like I am, I am not what's important here at all. What's important here is the history and whether or not these dots that we've put on the map for you create a coherent picture that looks anything like what I think it looks like. So that's the first thing is just please, whatever you do, don't put me on any kind of a pedestal because eventually that pedestal will get kicked out from underneath us. Not because I'm a bad human being, but because, like every other human being on the face of this planet, I've done things that I've done.

SPEAKER_01 2:33:53

That just means you're human. We all have that. That's not just you, like we all do, but that doesn't mean that you're not doing Things for the right reason and continuing to try to get better and grow and make things right.

SPEAKER_02 2:34:04

Yeah. So that's and that's I think that's the second piece is that while like those things have happened in my life, like I don't think anybody can question my intent. And it really bothers me when people question my intent because I am sincerely here for the right reasons. I'm not here to hurt people. I'm not here like people have started saying just and you're becoming influential. What if people leave the church because of the things that you're saying? And like all I can say to that is like I am here to teach people the truth the best way that I know how. And I never expect anybody to do anything based on what I'm what I'm putting out here, except to use their God-given gifts and talents and abilities to think it through carefully. And then, like my church taught me, pray about it and take it to the Lord and be like, hey, this guy is putting this stuff out here. It seems kind of real, but kind of crazy. Like, help me, God, know what I need to do about this. So, like, I really want people just to do what I was taught growing up. I'd like, don't make a decision based on this presentation today. If you're if you're religious, take it, pray about it, because I what I'm telling you, the definition of truth that I was given as a member of the church is things as they are and things as they were and things as they shall be. And all I want you to do is take that and say, is this how things were? Is this how things are? And how are things going to be if we don't do something about this? And then act according to your own conscience. I am not here to lead people. I don't want a following. I don't uh I don't enjoy doing these shows. I don't like being out on Twitter fighting with the Mormon Priestcraft Podcast Network. It's very against my nature. But somebody has to stand up and do this. And and and I need you to go find out what your part in it is. And we're seeing that happen. And that's what's so beautiful right now, Emma, is that people are starting to show up and they're like, Justin, what should I do? And I say, I don't know what you should do. Like, go pray. Go ask God what you should do. Because I don't know like what God has in store here. I'm not a prophet. I don't pretend to be a prophet. I don't want to lead people, I'm not a leader of people. Go pray and do what you need to. I just want to be a conduit of true information so that you can make wise decisions for yourselves and your families. Okay. Because, and I'll fall, I'll end here. I'm gonna take less than 10 minutes to finish this up. And it is sort of religious. So if you're not into that, you can turn it off right now. You can be done. But from my religious upbringing, this is how I see moving forward from today. Okay. In the other presentation, I give five reasons that priesthood holders shouldn't be fraternity boys. I'm not gonna read those five because nobody cares because most of the people watching this aren't Mormon. But I have five very specific reasons why I believe that members of the church who hold the priesthood shouldn't be fraternity boys. But then I want to get into like the standard again. And what I was taught growing up is that there is nothing covered which shall not be revealed. Okay. And Christ himself, if you believe these scriptures says, Therefore, whatsoever you have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light, and that which you have spoken in in the ear of in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops. And I say unto you, my friends, be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. So I just need these fraternity brothers to understand. Justin Riggs is not saying that everything that you did is going to be known. Jesus Christ said that everything that you did and every word you spoke in closets is going to be known to the world. So I would invite you to just get it over with and repent of what you did. Okay? Not that I have the authority to call anybody to repentance, but like if I were them, I'm just saying if I were in your shoes and I read that scripture, the very first thing I would want to do is tell everybody what happened so that it doesn't get exposed and I can just get on with my life. There's also scripture that talks about how the sinners in Zion are afraid. It says, this is Isaiah, hear ye that are afar off, what uh what I have done, and ye that are near, acknowledge my might. The sinners in Zion are afraid. Okay, not the sinners in Babylon. The sinners in Zion are afraid. So what does that mean? That means there are sinners in Zion, and I think we've identified some of them. The sinners in Zion are afraid. Fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. I think we've surprised some of these hypocrites with this research and what we're doing. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. The point is, again, if you believe the standard that you were given, you shouldn't be surprised to see that there are sinners in Zion, and you shouldn't be afraid, you shouldn't be surprised to see that they're afraid and that that they're fearful because you've surprised them based on their hypocrisy. That's all part of what I was taught growing up that this would happen. So sort of my final thought uh thoughts are if I had to to describe these men and women who joined fraternities and sororities in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in one word, it would be a Hebrew word. And the word is hanef. The word hanef means to be profane, defiled, polluted, and godless. Or godless. It shouldn't be and godless or godless. I don't think that these men and women are godless. I don't think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is led by godless men and women. But I think that they compromise and they became profane, defiled, and polluted through the choices that they made. And I think in order to move forward, we're gonna have to do something about that. Now, nature is taking care of a lot of that because most of these men that we've talked about today are dead. And so maybe God is presenting us with an opportunity to do better moving forward. But in order to do better moving forward, we have to look backward and acknowledge the mistakes that we made. And maybe that's the opportunity that's being presented to us right now. But if I had to describe them in one word, it would be hanaf. I think it fits them perfectly. And then the very last thing that I'll say is simply you know, my soul yearns for deliverance, Emma. This world is not a kind place. Um and in 2026, I think more people feel that than maybe at any point in history. I don't know, we've been through some really terrible things as humanity, but this is a very difficult time to be alive. And so for those who are looking for deliverance, I would just offer that that that answer comes from our standard works too. And this is what I believe that Jesus Christ told us that we need to do if we want to be delivered. He says, Therefore, we did pour out our souls in prayer to God that he would strengthen us and deliver us out of the hands of our enemies. Yay. And also give us strength, that we might retain our cities and our lands and our possessions for the support of our people. Yea, and it came to pass that the Lord our God did visit us with assurances that he would deliver us, yea, insomuch that he did speak peace to our souls and did grant unto us great faith, and did cause us that we should hope for our deliverance in him. So I just want to tell those of you who are watching today, if you feel hopeless and if you don't feel peace, and if you don't know if God has the power to deliver us from these awful situations that we find ourselves in, I just want to tell you that I believe that you have reason for hope, and that the way to get that peace that you're looking for is to do what it says in this scripture, which is to pray and to ask God to deliver us because of the bad choices that we've made. And that if we'll do that, I would invite you to join me in doing that day and night so that we can receive the faith that we need, that we so that we can have hope for our deliverance through Jesus Christ. And I understand that not everybody who's watching this believes in Jesus Christ. I understand that not everybody who's watching this even believes in religion. And so please forgive me for taking the time to do this. But if you're in that position, I would invite you to join me because that's how I'm approaching this. I do not see a way forward where human beings can deliver ourselves from the awful situation that we've put ourselves in. And so I'm putting my faith in Jesus Christ. That's what I choose to do. And I would invite you to do that with me if you'd like to.

SPEAKER_01 2:42:22

That was a phenomenal presentation. And I thank you for putting all of that together. It's it touches on so many levels from the institutional all the way down to the abused. And you've done it in just such a comprehensive way and a fearless way, and naming names that other people won't name or even feature on their platforms until it becomes more socially acceptable. It's really hard being before your time with things. You know, you started researching this before anybody even wanted to listen and accept it as being something to even hear or to see. A lot of people just completely had blinders on and just wanted to block it out and you know, wanted you to go retreat back into a corner and and not talk about it anymore, you know. But it's it's really fascinating watching people start to take their blinders off, even if it's just one eye or one year at a time, you know, and just kind of peek in and listen and then to see something bigger than them, you know, because I think ultimately like so many people fear losing the things that that make them who they are and and religion, religious institutions, community, all those things mean so much to people, you know. And I think one thing that you do really well is you help people realize that you don't have to lose that, you know. We just have to really filter out the things that are corrupting the communities that we love and the safe places that we have to go, the places that we that we bring our children, the people that we trust them with. And I think that that's like a really important lesson for people. And even how you were saying, don't put me up on a pedestal, you know, and we shouldn't do that with anybody, including church leaders. You know, everybody's human. We all have flaws, we all have things that we've done, we've all sinned, you know, and and think thankfully we have a loving God that, you know, died for our sins, you know, but at the same time, the difference between you, Justin, and these people is that you admit to being a sinner. They don't, they show up and and pretend to be the all-knowing, all-seeing eye, you know, they're the God and they can do no wrong. And anybody who accuses them, there's no conversation had. They're just out of sight, out of mind. And that's not fair. They too are human. We all have sinned. And we should not hold anybody up on a pedestal to the point where we're willing to sacrifice our own children and their safety to protect the image that we have, that we've been sort of, you know, brainwashed to envision and imagine that that that's what these people are. It's okay to take people off and to realize that they're human, you know, and to realize that it's okay too that for change, you know, change can be so good if we can get the right people into these positions to help lead in a way that is with safety and protection of the members and not just the reputation of the institution itself. Like imagine what are what what changes that would happen in our world if we like really dialed in everywhere where there's this type of model and demanded, you know, good leaders that that lead from the heart and that put people first, you know, that are servants to their community. Like it would be a beautiful thing, you know, and and I think that that's like a good thing to remind people of that we're not just trying to get people to leave a church. And anyways, that's not your responsibility, Justin. You're delivering information. That shouldn't be a question people put on you. Everybody's able to make their own decisions based off of that. If you leave the church, great. I'm happy you made that decision if you feel that's right. If you want to stay, I'm still happy for you. And I'm sure you feel the same way, Justin. You know, that's not anybody's responsibility who stays or goes. It's just we're trying to get information out. But the point is we should want to make these places safe and we should want to make them um communities that that we don't have to worry about our children and what happens to them. We don't have to worry about hard conversations being had and accountability being held. And that everybody should open up to that possibility that we can make things better than they already are. If you already love your community, imagine how much better it could be without any rot or filth sitting at the top, you know, and no secret handshakes to protect one another. It's everybody's an equal here. We all have each other's backs, and we know from the top down that everybody here has, you know, the integrity to protect one another and to do the right thing, you know. And so I just really appreciate you leading from that place and being able to encourage other people to do the same and to help people understand that there's something better around the corner. This is all really dark, what we're uncovering, but shining a light on it is the first step to making a change for the better. And I think all of us should want that for ourselves, for our communities, and especially for our children and people who have been harmed by these institutions. And so I just I really thank you, Justin. I I love listening to you. I could listen to you all day. I think a lot of people agree. I'm grateful you haven't given up, despite I know that this has been a really hard journey in many ways. And um, you know, I also just want to encourage you. One of the things that the enemy does best is attacking character and attacking us for our sins. You know, never your work. They can't, they're not gonna come and talk about that all your work is wrong. They're gonna try to pin that on you. I've had that done to me a million times, and it's it's been really hard for me too. Picking up things from my past or photos that I've taken and you know, blasting me, making whole podcasts and videos, blasting me as a person and making me look like an idiot. And it's like, okay, but what about my work? Like you just said nothing about my work. Like, go ahead and pick me apart. Like, I I put all that stuff on the internet myself, like I did it, you know. Like I'm a sinner too. Like I've done things wrong, and there's things that I, you know, if I would have known what I know now back then, I wouldn't have done. But like I'm a human too. But that's all that's a tactic of the enemy is attacking the person who's trying to do a good job, you know, and so wear that as a badge of honor too. It's not easy to go through that. But you know, like I said, the difference between you and some and these men is you you can admit that you're a human being who has faults and who's growing from them and learning. They can't. And I would take talking and trusting a person like you any day over shaking hands with people like them. So just I I thank you for everything that you've done.

SPEAKER_02 2:48:35

Well, thank you so much. It's just uh it's always an honor to be here. And uh, you know, you gave me kudos, and I don't mean to turn it into a mutual admiration society, but people need to understand how difficult it is to find people that will put this online. And so thank you for having the courage to let me be here and say the names that I say. I I can't tell you the number of times I've heard people say there's a real story here, but we can't take the chance of being sued if you mention so and so. And so thank you for your courage.

SPEAKER_01 2:49:02

It's my honor. I'll take being sued any day. I've actually been threatened with so many lawsuits. Like not one person has followed through, not one single person has actually sued me. I've just gotten all these different letters and threats and not a single one. So if somebody wants to go to court with me all about being child molesters and child rapists and programmers, let's go bring it up. Do it. I'll happily sit in court and face those people. Um, but it's an honor to be here with you. And I can't wait to have you on again um as more of this unfolds and hope you continue doing what you're doing. And is there anything that you wanted to close with or anything you want to share, especially how people can connect with you?

SPEAKER_02 2:49:41

Uh, I mean, it's just LDS Abuse uh on X at LDS Abuse. And then I am on TikTok, I am on Instagram, but I'm finding it very difficult to keep up with. I don't have like a social media manager or anything like that. So if you want to, yeah, if you want to talk to me, um, go to X at LDS Abuse, and um, I will definitely, I would love to hear from you. And thank you to everybody. It's for two hours and 45 minutes into this. So thank you for giving me two hours and 45 minutes of your time. I know that it's it's not easy to do that in these these days and in these times.

SPEAKER_01 2:50:11

And I'll have the um Gordon Bowen document website below too. Keep circulating that as well. It's awesome hearing Justin seeing the analytics like really fly up from all the people visiting that website uh from all the different platforms that he's been on. So keep that up, you guys, and keep sharing that. And you guys listening are the backbone. And again, we can all be the change that we want to see in the world. Um, it takes all of us. We all have our part in this. As Justin said, we can't tell you what that part is, but you know in your heart and pray about it and figure out what that is. And you know, there's no action that's too small to help with this. So I ask you guys to pray over Justin. We'll be praying over all of you and just bless you guys and thank you so much for listening. God bless you all, and we will see you next time.