EP 33: Pythagoras - Man or God?

Welcome to Episode 33 where we meet Pythagoras, a 6th century B.C. genius. Was he man or god? Not even his contemporaries were sure. Pythagoras himself once said, “There are gods … and there are men … and there is Pythagoras.”

Avowedly the son of Apollo, he is known today as the father of mathematics. All modern science and logic sprung from his original insights.

Yet he was also a mystic and the founder of a revolutionary society. Men and women were equals, and all followed Pythagoras’ strange rules of behavior and diet.

Narrated by mythologist and best-selling author, Patrick Garner, Garner's Greek Mythology is unlike any other Greek history series.  Here these divine beings are viewed as if they were anything but mythical...

Transcript

EPISODE 33-- Pythagoras: God or Man?

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PYTHAGORAS ... IMAGINE A CHARISMATIC GENIUS WHO EASILY ACQUIRES MASTERY OVER ANYTHING THAT INTERESTS HIM.

FOREIGN LANGUAGES ... ASTRONOMY ... SORCERY ... MATHEMATICS OR EVEN THE STRUCTURE OF MUSIC ... ONE BY ONE, ALL OF THESE FALL UNDER HIS DOMAIN ...

THERE WERE NAMES FOR MEN LIKE THIS ...  MASTER, PROPHET, MAESTRO OR SIMPLY TEACHER ... EACH WAS APPLIED TO PYTHAGORAS.

HE LIVED IN THE 6th CENTURY B.C. ... AND NO ONE KNEW WHAT TO MAKE OF HIM.

FOR PYTHAGORAS WAS A PUZZLE ... IF WE LISTEN TO ANCIENT WRITERS, HE WAS EITHER A GOD OR A MAN.

PYTHAGORAS HIMSELF SAID HE WAS NEITHER. INSTEAD, HE CLAIMED TO BE SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. 

HE'S BEEN COMPARED TO EINSTEIN, & CALLED ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT MEN WHO EVER LIVED.

YET, WE KNOW LITTLE ABOUT HIM — & SOME OF WHAT WE DO KNOW MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY.

AN EXAMPLE? HE HAD RULES FOR HIS FOLLOWERS, ADMONISHING THEM FROM WEARING WOOL CLOTHING OR BREAKING BREAD ...

EATING BEANS OR WALKING ALONG HIGHWAYS ... & EVEN TOUCHING ROOSTERS.

DESPITE THIS, MATHEMATICS BEGAN WITH HIM. AND IN REALITY, THE MODERN WORLD WAS BORN FROM HIS INSIGHTS. 

WE MAY NOT KNOW IT, BUT WE NOW VIEW THE WORLD THROUGH HIS EYES ... 

AND HOW DID THE OLYMPIC GODS, ALWAYS HYPER-AWARE OF HUMAN ENDEAVORS, VIEW PYTHAGORAS? 

HARDLY WITH SYMPATHY. PYTHAGORAS WAS A THREAT, THE FIRST MAN TO SERIOUSLY PUSH THE ANCIENT DIVINITIES OFF THEIR PEDESTAL & INTO ... WHAT?

HE BEGAN PUSHING THEM INTO ... MYTHOLOGY ... 

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THIS IS EPISODE 33 OF GARNER'S GREEK MYTHOLOGY. WE HAVE LISTENERS FROM 148 COUNTRIES & HAVE HAD MORE THAN 100,000 DOWNLOADS.

SO WELCOME TO EVERYONE, WHEREVER YOU ARE.

I'M YOUR HOST, MYTHOLOGIST & BEST-SELLING AUTHOR, PATRICK GARNER. 

THESE STORIES ABOUT THE GODS HAVE BEEN TOLD FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS. BUT NOW THERE ARE NEW STORIES THAT ARE AS COMPELLING.

IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE SO ALREADY, CHECK OUT MY BOOKS ABOUT THE GODS IN THE CONTEMPORARY WORLD. 

YOU CAN READ ABOUT THEM & ABOUT THIS PODCAST AT PATRICKGARNERBOOKS.COM. 

AND AS ALWAYS, THIS PODCAST FOCUSES ON ONE THING ... GREEK GODS, OF COURSE. THEY, LIKE YOU, ARE HERE, NOW ...

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AND NOW WE RETURN TO PYTHAGORAS. HE IS SAID TO HAVE THRIVED AROUND 530 TO 500 B.C.

WE KNOW HE WAS BORN ON THE ISLAND OF SAMOS, WHICH LIES OFF THE COAST OF MODERN TURKEY.

BEYOND THAT, HIS BIOGRAPHY BECOMES CLOUDED, EVEN FANCIFUL. FOR INSTANCE, MANY MAINTAINED, BOTH DURING HIS LIFETIME & AFTER, THAT THE GOD APOLLO WAS HIS FATHER.

HE WAS QUICK TO SHOW OFF A LARGE, GOLDEN BIRTHMARK ON HIS THIGH, A SIGN OF BEING APOLLO'S SON.

PYTHAGORAS HIMSELF IS QUOTED AS SAYING, "THERE ARE GODS & THERE ARE MEN ... & THEN THERE IS PYTHAGORAS."

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AT SOME POINT HE BECAME DISENCHANTED WITH SAMOS. SCHOLARS SUGGEST HE TRAVELED TO SYRIA, BABYLON & EGYPT.

SUCH A JOURNEY SEEMS PROBABLE. THESE COUNTRIES HAD A CULTURE THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLDER THAN THAT OF GREECE.

A GREEK WRITER NAMED Diogenes Laërtios, WHO LIVED IN THE 3rd CENTURY A.D.,  TELLS US,

“Now, he was in Egypt when ... he learnED the Egyptian language ... he also entered the Egyptian sanctuaries, & was told their secretS concerning the gods.”

PYTHAGORAS EVENTUALLY LEFT FOR SOUTHERN ITALY, SETTLING IN A THRIVING GREEK TOWN CALLED CROTON, WHERE HE BEGAN TO TEACH. 

HE FOUNDED A SOCIETY & ACQUIRED FOLLOWERS WHO BECAME INFLUENTIAL THROUGHOUT THE REGION.

IN TIME THE LOCAL POWER-BROKERS TURNED AGAINST HIM & HE WAS DRIVEN AWAY ... 

SOMETHING ELSE THAT'S NOTEWORTHY IS THAT, ALTHOUGH HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT MEN IN ANTIQUITY, PYTHAGORAS LEFT NO WRITINGS & FEW TRACES FOR HISTORIANS.

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LET'S PAUSE FOR A MOMENT & EXPLORE WHY PYTHAGORAS IS SO IMPORTANT TO US TODAY ... IT'S QUITE SIMPLY, BECAUSE OF MATHEMATICS. 

BUT WHAT WE THINK OF NOW AS THE STUDY OF NUMBERS WAS VERY DIFFERENT IN 500 B.C.

I SAY THAT BECAUSE PYTHAGORAS WAS A MYSTIC, AS WELL AS A MATHEMATICIAN ... CHARMINGLY — OR TYPICALLY FOR THE TIME — HE SAW NO CONFLICT BETWEEN THE TWO.

YES, HE BELIEVED THE WORLD WAS NOTHING MORE THAN NUMBERS — A CONCEPT THAT, IN A TIME OF OLYMPIC GODS, WAS COMPLETELY ORIGINAL  — 

BUT SEAMLESSLY, HE ALSO BELIEVED THAT WHEN HUMANS DIE, THEY ARE BORN AGAIN AS OTHER LIVING CREATURES. 

TODAY WE CALL SUCH A BELIEF TRANSMIGRATION. BUT AT THE TIME, TEACHING THAT THE DEAD DID NOT DESCEND TO THE UNDERWORLD ... WAS BLASPHEMY.

BE THAT AS IT MAY, LIKE ST. FRANCIS, PYTHAGORAS PREACHED TO ANIMALS, INCLUDING BIRDS, SHEEP & OXEN ...

FOR EXAMPLE, PYTHAGORUS WAS KNOWN FOR WHISPERING TO OXEN TO THE GREAT AMUSEMENT OF FARMERS.

BUT TO THEIR SHOCK, THESE LUCKY OXEN FAR OUTLIVED THOSE THAT HAD NOT ENCOUNTERED PYTHAGORUS. 

IN ANOTHER STORY, ONE DAY ON A WALK HE CAME ACROSS A MAN BEATING HIS DOG. As the dog whimpered & yelped in pain, Pythagoras recognized THE SOUNDS.

He COMMANDED the man to release the dog, SAYING, "STOP!  YOUR DOG IS AN OLD FRIEND OF MINE. I KNOW HIS VOICE!"

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IN THE SOCIETY HE FOUNDED, MEN & WOMEN WERE EQUALS & PROPERTY WAS HELD IN COMMON.

THEY WERE CALLED  PYTHAGOREANS. THEY MADE NUMEROUS MATHEMATICAL & SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES WHICH WERE ALL WERE CREDITED, EVEN AFTER HIS DEATH, AS MYSTICAL REVELATIONS EMANATING FROM PYTHAGORAS' GENIUS ...

... THEY, LIKE PYTHAGORUS, BELIEVED THAT EVERYONE SHOULD BE PURIFIED. THIS IS A CONCEPT THAT PYTHAGORUS PROBABLY PICKED UP FROM HIS TRAVELS. 

IN THE FAR EAST IT'S REFERRED TO AS THE WHEEL OF BIRTH. 

A FOLLOWER COULD BE PURIFIED — THAT IS, RELEASED FROM THIS ENDLESS CYCLE OF BIRTH & DEATH— THROUGH THE STUDY OF PURE MATHEMATICS. 

AND LIKE PYTHAGORAS HIS FOLLOWERS SAW NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SPIRITUAL & SCIENTIFIC REALMS.

AN EXAMPLE? PYTHAGORAS WAS ENGROSSED IN THE MOVEMENT OF THE MOON, STARS & PLANETS. 

HE INVENTED THE PHRASE, 'THE HARMONY OF THE SPHERES,' BELIEVING THAT ALL CELESTIAL THINGS WERE NUMERICALLY IN A 'HARMONIC PROGRESSION.'

YET HE EQUALLY EMBRACED ASTROLOGY, CERTAIN THAT THE ALIGNMENT OF THE PLANETS DIRECTLY INFLUENCED HUMAN AFFAIRS.

AT SOME POINT HE APPLIED HIS NUMBERS THEORY TO MUSICAL STRUCTURE, DISCOVERING THAT THE INTERVALS BETWEEN NOTES HAVE SIMPLE NUMERICAL RATIOS.

THE PYTHAGOREANS BECAME CONVINCED THAT, IF THESE RATIOS WORKED SO WELL WITH MUSIC, THEY MUST APPLY ALL OTHER THINGS.

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TODAY MOST STUDENTS HAVE HEARD OF THE PYTHAGOREAN THEOREM OF RIGHT-ANGLED TRIANGLES. IT'S LIKELY THAT THIS THEORM ORIGINATED IN EGYPT.

BUT PYTHAGORUS POINTED OUT THAT THIS FORMULA COULD BE SCALED UP BY SQUARING THE NUMBERS.

THIS REALIZATION ALLOWED THE AXIOM TO BE APPLIED THROUGHOUT ARCHITECTURE, ENGINEERING & SCIENCE.

SO POWERFUL WERE HIS INSIGHTS THAT THE PYTHAGOREANS BEGAN TO WORSHIP NUMBERS RATHER THAN THE GODS ON OLYMPUS. 

AND AS A RESULT, HIS SOCIETY WAS FORCED TO BECOME more secretive.

WE'VE SEEN THIS BEFORE. SUCH HERETICAL BELIEFS OFTEN LED TO THINKERS BEING BANISHED OR KILLED.

AND REMEMBER: IN 500 B.C. ONE DID NOT SIMPLY DISMISS THE GODS, WHO, ALL KNEW, MADE THE WORLD TURN & THE SUN RISE.

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LIKE PYTHAGORAS, THOSE WHO FOLLOWED HIM WERE VEGETARIANS.

HIS BELIEF THAT THE HUMAN SOUL PASSES INTO OTHER BEINGS AFTER DEATH LED HIM TO AVOID MEAT.

BUT AS WE'LL SEE NEAR THE END OF THIS EPISODE, HIS PLANT-BASED DIET LED TO HIS DEATH ...

AND WHY DID HE AVOID BEANS? ONCE, HE'D DUG UP SOME FRESHLY PLANTED SEEDS & THE SWELLING BEANS LOOKED LIKE HUMAN FETUSES.

SHOCKED, HE BECAME CONVINCED THAT BEANS WERE RELATED TO HUMANS ... & THAT THEY MUST CONTAIN HUMAN SOULS.

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PYTHAGORAS ALSO BELIEVED—LIKE A FEW OTHER EXTRAORDINARY THINKERS OF HIS TIME—THAT ALL THINGS ARE COMPOSED OF ATOMS. 

FOR PYTHAGORAS, SHAPES WERE MADE UP OF ATOMS THAT, LIKE ALL PHENOMENA, WERE NUMBERED IN A PERFECT ORDER.

ALL OF THESE THEORIES WE'VE DISCUSSED — IN FACT ALL OF PYTHAGORAS' BELIEFS — ARE PRE-SOCRATIC, MEANING THEY PREDATE SOCRATES.

SOCRATES IS ONE OF THE MORE FAMOUS OF THE PHILOSOPHERS WHO FOLLOWED HIM. AND ONE OF SOCRATES' PUPILS WAS PLATO, WHOSE WRITINGS REFLECTED MANY OF PYTHAGORAS' NOTIONS.

AND BECAUSE PLATO WAS A SUPERB POPULARIZER ... AND MANY OF HIS IDEAS WERE LATER PICKED UP BY CHRISTIANS ... PYTHAGORAS' BELIEFS SPREAD TO THE PRESENT ERA.

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AS FEW DETAILS AS WE HAVE ABOUT PYTHAGORUS' LIFE, WE HAVE NUMEROUS STORIES ABOUT HIS DEATH. 

HERE'S ONE THAT'S SOMEWHAT IRONIC ... IN THE RETELLING, WE RETURN TO BEANS, & HOW PYTHAGORAS' IDEALISM MAY HAVE ENDED HIS LIFE ... 

IT GOES LIKE THIS: ONCE THERE WAS A WEALTHY YOUNG MAN NAMED Kylon ... Born into nobility, he was used to getting anything he desired. 

When denied, he BECAME VIOLENT & demanding. AT SOME POINT, he desired to become a MEMBER OF PYTHAGORAS' SOCIETY. 

KYLON believed that he COULD bypass the training, silence & deep contemplation which preceded ACCEPTANCE. 

WHEN HE DEMANDED FULL MEMBERSHIP, Pythagoras bluntly turned him down, REFUSING TO EVEN GIVE HIM AN AUDIENCE.

Like THE GODDESS Hera, Kylon BECAME angry & vengeful. He BEGAN giving PUBLIC TALKS mockING THE TEACHER'S ideas & beliefs.

HE DESCRIBED PYTHAGORAS' FOLLOWERS as MERE CATTLE & AS BLASPHEMOUS DENIERS OF THE GODS 

Kylon manipulated THE townspeople, until, FINALLY as a mob, they descended upon the ENCLAVE WHERE THE SOCIETY lived. 

TheY torched the buildings ... & many OF THE PYTHAGOREANS were KILLED. 

Pythagoras HIMSELF ESCAPED WHEN his followers formed a human bridge to help him out of A blazing building. 

several of THE ATTACKERs PURSUED HIM. PYTHAGORAS had a significant lead. BUT SUDDENLY THE GREAT MAN came to aN ABRUPT stop.  

A vast bean field stretched before him. HE SAW THE BEANS inches from his feet. CRUSHING even A SINGLE ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN EQUIVALENT TO MURDER. 

he FROZE IN PLACE. his pursuers caught up with him & KILLED HIM WHERE HE STOOD.

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THE STORY MAY BE A CONCOCTION, BUT PYTHAGORAS WAS DRIVEN FROM CROTON BY ANGRY CITIZENS WHO BELIEVED HIM TO BE DANGEROUS.

AFTER ALL, HE TAUGHT THAT THE GODS WERE AN INVENTION, & THAT ALL THINGS WERE THE CREATION OF NUMBERS & ATOMS.

ANY GOOD GREEK KNEW THAT ZEUS ALONE DICTATED THE MOVEMENT OF PLANETS & STARS.

EVERYONE COULD SEE THAT APOLLO, ARTEMIS & THE MUSES WERE THE SOURCE FOR ALL SONG & DANCE. 

MUSIC WAS ORGANIC, CHAOTIC, JOYFUL — NOT A STRANGE NUMBERS GAME LIKE PYTHAGORAS WOULD HAVE THEM BELIEVE.

INDEED, ALL THAT PYTHAGORAS TAUGHT WAS AN ANATHEMA TO THOSE SEEPED IN THE STORIES OF HOMER & HESIOD. 

THEY KNEW BETTER. THE GODS WERE EVERYWHERE.

YET AFTER HIS DEATH, PYTHAGORAS' TEACHINGS BECAME EVEN MORE INFLUENTIAL ... IN THE BEGINNING OF THIS EPISODE I DESCRIBED HIS LIFE AS A PUZZLE.

I DID SO PARTLY BECAUSE, AS HIS SWAY OVER HUMAN UNDERSTANDING INCREASED, AN ACCURATE SENSE OF THE MAN HIMSELF BECAME INCREASINGLY OBSCURE.

IN TIME, ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT MEN TO HAVE LIVED BECAME BETTER KNOWN TO THE PUBLIC FOR HIS DIETARY RESTRICTIONS THAN FOR HIS LOGIC.

THE MAN SCHOLARS HAVE COMPARED TO EINSTEIN WAS EASILY MOCKED ...

YET WHEN HE LIVED, HIS CHARISMA WAS DAZZLING. THOSE AROUND HIM CONSIDERED HIM GOD-LIKE.

AND EVEN TODAY HIS MATHEMATICAL INSIGHTS — WHICH DIRECTLY LED TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF SCIENCE & LOGIC — ARE CONSIDERED REVOLUTIONARY.

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