Investing in Yourself (with Kevin Craig West & Susan Spain)

This week we're remembering a simpler time with actors Susan Spain and Kevin Craig West. Join our discussion on fighting art burnout, trying new things, and how to be more introspective.

Special Thanks to Our Incredible Guests:
Kevin Craig West: IMdB, Instagram
Susan Spain: Website, Audible, Instagram

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Transcript

0:49

Welcome to the Wednesday, January 25th, 2022. It's the 26th. Today's the 26th? For real?? Yep. We already messed up. All right. What exactly? 25th. Okay, so take seven. All right. Welcome to Grandpa and Chill. That's all that needed to be said. Is. I love that. I think that's good enough. The best one so far. We got straight into the intro. Yeah. Hey, Kevin. Hey, Susan. Brandon. You guys have been on before, but have just been killing it. And we've never. Since we moved to more long form stuff. We've not had you guys on. And I just, like, dying to have a long conversation, so we'll be really happy you're here. He's not going to be here. Thank you. Thanks. It's always. Good. If you could reintroduce yourself to our audience and just, like, give, like, a brief synopsis of your back story, what you guys do, and I'll allow. Me to reintroduce myself. My whole career is over. I am Susan Spain, and this is I guess I'm supposed to say the whole the whole thing, right? Well, I'm from New Jersey, Michael Jersey live in Manhattan. And I don't know what else you want to know. I should have written it down, as you were saying. What do you what do you do? Let's see. I'm an actress. I just actually, my TV show. I just finished up the season of Our Kind of People. I played Rose Franklin on Our Kind of People on Fox, and we had our season finale last night. Oh, my God. Fingers crossed for a second season, we haven't heard yet whether we're getting the green light on that show. Was was that through Gil? Sorry to interrupt. It was! It was through Guild Talent Group. Fuck. Yeah. Brandon actually helped me get into Guild Talent Group. He told me about this great audition and I went to audition. They were opening up an office in New York City. It was just before COVID. Wow. And Angela gave me a contract just around the time the world shut down. But they're awesome. They stuck with me and I stuck with them. And then as the waiting started to open back up, I got an audition for a TV series. Actually, they, they, I've. I've been really busy auditioning. Last year was this fleshy audition for the and they're great. Well, thank you, Brandon. I love them. They're awesome. They're they're an awesome agency. And Kevin. Yes, my name is Kevin Craig West, an actor and filmmaker and she failed to mention that she's also a singer and a book narrator. And she just I don't know if you follow her posts on social media, but she just did a birthday party. Well, I don't know if you can talk about private events in Denver or how you posted it. So it will always. Be a birthday party for. Well, you. Me. I love how he does that, though. He to me. I love that. Yeah. I'm also in a motown tribute group called The Shadows of the Sixties, and we just got back from performing in Los Angeles last week at Paul Stanley's birthday party. Some kids and that's a big folks. There was a lot of fun. And I narrate audio books, have an ear phones award for a book. I narrated that actually a friend of mine from college wrote that book sales kind of an entrance called Aptitude Pack and defrosting. Earphones is. What it's it's an award that there are actually I think there are two different awards you can get maybe three or four audio books. There's the Audi's and then there's the Earphones Award and I want to get things award. You get the earphones. I've already said. I have an ear phones award for the nominees. Wow. I've been married to audiobooks, which I've been doing for years and who to and. What is the difference? The difference in. It between audio books and earphone awards? I'm not familiar with these. Earphone awards or —they call them Earphone Awards because in order to narrate an audio book, you have to wear headphones. It's it's just the name of the award that's given for, for that branch of acting like like the Oscars are for film and the Grammys are for music and the Emmys are for daytime television. The earphones are for audiobooks. But what. Are the. Awards and the other. Ones? The difference between they're the same. It's just yeah, they're the same. It's just like like, like our Golden Globe awards for films and there's Oscars for films and their SAG awards and film. It's all you know, they're just different awards for the same thing. I see. Yeah. Cool. How. How did you guys both get into acting? We met doing. Doing a play. We. We did a play together. Oh, like heaven tell that story because we have different stories on how we actually met. I know. How do we know which one? I thought you said, how do we meet? No, but I like. I like the meeting. Better by, you know, performing with a band in front of all those loud instruments. My hair. And you guys are. So cute and so amazing because I asked Kevin, like, tell me about yourself, Kevin. And then he just talks about you. And then I'm like, Susan, how did you get in? And then. I met. This cute. How did you guys meet? We met during pre-COVID way back in pre-COVID times. And it's in a play in Vermont that was what was it like? Five, six, six of us on stage, six of us on stage the whole time playing our whole town of like 20 something people or something. Wow. Yeah. And we didn't have any. None of. Our. Work on stage yet. And so we didn't interact with one another. I tried to, like, start cheating my blocking for her to like flirt while on stage. But yeah, we did a show together and hung out every day and. And Kevin was living in Los Angeles at the time. Right. And I wouldn't let him go home or. Or and yeah, we were the only Melanie folks of the cast. So it was a kind of an easy attraction there. That's the only reason that he decided to date me was because. They met on the set. All right. I've been in the set. I've been in six weeks, and I finally found somewhere. Exactly. Thanks. Go there. But yeah. Yeah. The place called Judah VI, it was a phenomenal play and fun work and and yeah, interestingly, on the way to the we actually were on the same transportation to get to the theater but didn't know excuse me one another. Nor did we know that we were both heading to the same place. In fact, I. I thought of speaking to her and telling her to come see my show, but decided against it. And why do you feel that you guys tell the story differently? Susan? Well, it's it's all in the ride to the to the to the to the venue that we have slightly different stories. We ended up on the same on the same bus or scuttle from from Albany to Vermont. And Kevin will tell you that I got on the bus and I threw my bag on top of his and that I showed that way. And I tell like she didn't throw her bag on top of mind and bus driver did. But he thinks that I that I that I don't know that I ignored him or something or I saw him speak or whatever. And I was just I started in addition to the job I was going to, I had just started another job with the job that I was leaving. I was kind of that I started another a new freelance job and when I got on the vehicle, I was just sort of like focused on getting a job done. And so I sat down on my laptop and my iPad with me, and I just I just don't God, I didn't notice anybody else on the vehicle. And when we got off, I got off before he did. And you said he was kind of crazy himself for not telling me about this plane that he was in. And I think that always makes me laugh. But, you know, he would tell people that, you know, we we were on the same vehicle and saw each other. And for him, I won't tell anybody else that, I guess that they didn't put that part in the story because I like when he says that sort of thing, so I like him. It's so even though I didn't see him. Yeah. And then you guys ended up being in the same place. Yeah. Same play. And, and. And. I. Get together and it's. Pretty interesting. Yeah. It's crazy how many mutual friends we had throughout all of these years and never, never met each other before. Why is it? Yeah. Within the right time. Oh, wow. So switching again. What do you tell what you. Oh well we haven't. Kevin's been killing it I so I'll say I, I just randomly saw this movie. Don't Look Up, which is one of the biggest movies of the year. This happened to see my friend Kevin sitting next to Meryl Streep and Jonah like the biggest actors in Hollywood, is is insane. It was really cool. It was a lot of fun. That was I was surprised that I was watching and I was like, I hope they get my face. I'm like. Yeah, no, that was a phenomenal experience. And that was that was a nice treat for the show that I was doing. I was doing a play up in Boston that that shut down, you know, closed early because of COVID and the last performance of it prior to us being closed down or the second to last performance, a casting director that that called me in for that for that role, stole the show and sent a message a couple of weeks later saying, hey, saw your show and we're casting this thing. And yeah, I was then. That was awesome. But the audition happened like, you know, like as soon as the shutdown happened pretty much. And I never thought anything about it or whatever. And then the end of 2013, the end of their the end of 20, they reached out to me and said, Hey, remember that thing you auditioned for? We want to use you, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, Holy smokes, one. And yeah, so it turned out my, the because of COVID and COVID protocols that were being put into place once they started filming, it was the first thing that it was the first thing that I been involved in. I think it was one of the first it was one of the first projects that had started filming after COVID, and they had. Been doing all this super. Super strict protocol. Well, prior to anyone going on set, they had a they had a COVID hotel. So everyone had to go and and have this cadence of COVID tests. But quarantine in the hotel for ten days prior to going out on set and and getting tested there. And I mean, just doing everything their your your laundry, food, everything you had to be delivered there and into a special section. No visitors, nothing. It was it was it was pretty strict. But but yeah, it was the first live. So I turned out I ended up shooting that in January of last year. And yeah, it was, it kicked off a great year. So it's a wonderful. Lovely piece of work. Yeah. Kevin, it sounds as though you're getting jobs, getting acting jobs just by meeting the right people, the right time. And is there any point in belonging to a union, an actors union, or having a manager or an agent? Or do you just generally find work otherwise. Well prior to having representation? I do have both manager and an agent, but prior to having those, I, I was able to work mostly through networking so it it and still with having those it does help, you know, the right place, right time, meeting people, you know, being out, networking, all of it, all of it helps. Having representation though, is, is, is it's it's necessary for me for the types of jobs that I'd like to do. There's some that that without representation and talent can't have access to, unfortunately, or it's harder to gain access to, you know, without actually knowing someone. So a lot of the studio work and, you know, bigger budgeted films and and network television, all of that. In order for me to do the roles that I'd like to do, I'd have to have representation. So. And when you say representation, are you referring to a manager or an agent? Right. Well, yes, either or both, but yes, I have. Well, I'm fairly new with my my management team, which I absolutely love is it's interesting. I just recently signed with them actually and and forgot that there was a trial period that I had been working with them under. I'm not sure what it was six months, nine or whatever it was, whatever the trial period was, they sent me an email saying, All right, well, the trial is over. And, you know, we'd love to read for you if you like to be read by us. You know, here's the contract signed. But I was like, Oh my God, pardon me. But I totally blank that forgot that I, you know, was, was, was not already signed with you guys because they've been working, you know, like super hard for me in my opinion. So. Wow. Yeah. Mapping into what they have. Yeah. So, so yes, you could certainly get work without having a representation, without having an agent or manager or both. But it it's definitely helpful to have that. What about the belonging to the union? Is that. Yes. And and that as well. There's lots of nonunion work that's out there. It's a lot of a lot of really cool nonunion work out out there. But for the types of work that I like to do, like in the bigger budget films, clean network television, all of those you have to be a union member to be in excuse me, and I've been part of the union since the 1900s. So way back before the time back in the 1900s, I remember those. And so so yeah, it was it was something that when I when I did get started in this business that I learned early on that if I wanted to do this professionally, it was something that I should, should join, should be a member of. So yeah. And what is it? Is it sag or what. I'm not I'm a member of both SAG-AFTRA as well as Actors Equity, which is the union for working on stage SAG and after. When I joined, they were two separate unions. Once the Actors Guild was specifically for working on film and after the administration, television, radio artists was geared more specifically to do television as far as actors or news reporters and then radio as well. Does does your lady friend sing to you? She has. She does. Her mom sent to. Me my mother in song. She loves Kate Snow. And she made a song for her. But. Yes. And you sing quite well. Yeah. Yeah. It's got to check her out on an I. Whatever. She's near your city. Thank you. Yeah. They're everywhere. So they'll be in your city sometime this year. Next year, I'm sure. This year. Early in the. Year. Nice. Yeah, we've been blessed. We've traveled a lot with the band, with my director. Would kill me if you heard me say band on the podcast. Is there a big a big production we know where sequined gowns and gloves and and such. And it's a really big production with choreography and everything. And we do the Supremes, the Martha and the Vandellas, The Four Tops, Temptations on a little bit of everything in our show. And we've been to Hawaii this year, and we did a cruise in Mexico and we're all over the place. So when when you when you get like a new song, one that you're not familiar with, how long does it take you to to learn it and be able to sing along with the band or whatever, the old chorus or whatever? How long does that. Well, it, it, it sometimes it takes a while to learn a song and sometimes the words just sort of they, you know, I don't know if it's the way that they're written or the the meaning of it. Sometimes the way they flow it, it's it's a little easier to learn a song. But as I get older, it takes a little more time to learn anything from words to the song, words to a script. It, you know, it takes a little bit longer to commit to memory. Well, that's a good question. This last show that we did no, not the one in Los Angeles, but prior to that, we were in where do we go to Florida? We were in Florida and we performed there every year in January for it's a fundraising event. And this year he wanted to mix it up a little bit and have a sing some different songs. And so he asked me to sing us to learn a new song and I really only had like a couple of days to learn it. And I was nervous. I was afraid I might not remember all of the lyrics, but they actually ended up cutting the song for other reasons. But so we'll never know whether or not, whether or not it was all committed. But yeah, you know, I don't know, couple of days a week. All depends on the material. Speaking of that, when you guys have done your respective huge acting gigs recently, is there like a nervousness or a pressure tonight club line? Like, do you get anxious like that on the election or yes. Yes, yes. I mean. I did something with one line, a one line this year. And one of the things that I was like lucky enough to grab and for like for like two weeks, I would just like repeat it. Was make these pretzels are making. Me. Literally, literally. And I'm like, I'm going to plug in, I'm going to do like this. And then I get to set and I'm like, Fuck it, I'm so nervous and I want it because it's with someone who's like very famous, whatever. And I get there and I stand on my mark and the director comes and he's like, Hey, let's. Go take a moment. And like, and like the one line I. Felt completely different. And I was. Like, Oh. Okay, okay. That happened to me too. And just a few weeks ago, really, they changed that. They changed the script. And I had been working on it and working on it and and actually they changed my shoot dates and TV show. Oh, and they kept changing them. And, you know, I had the script for a while and I'd been working on it for a while. And when I finally got in like the night before, they changed my lines. And one of the lines I don't know if I ever got it right this the script supervisor kept coming up to me and going so that that line is actually so, you know, that line is actually so the line is like, I know I don't know why I was like I kept rain freezing on that one line the one one of the lines of the change and they changed that changed a few lines. But that one I just couldn't I don't know when I got to it, I'm like, Yeah, maybe it was just that I was in the moment, in the scene. And I just I wasn't thinking about it until it came time to say the words, and the wrong words just kept coming in. But you didn't you didn't bomb the take. You were in like, oh, fuck. And then no, I would just say the wrong line. And afterwards she'd come up to me and say, So the line is, Look, I can't you I don't know what the line is now. No but hopefully, hopefully nobody but the script person. Yeah. I mean everybody on set knew because she kept coming up to me and telling me, but I think they at least got one good take out of it where I think what everybody saw on last Tuesday was the correct line, or maybe it wasn't all of them. But when you're when you're doing these where it's not just like a small costar and you have more than one line and you're sitting next to whoever it is, Jonah Hill, whatever, like the there's the there's the pressure, the nerves go away after you get there. Now, is it a constant and interesting? I, I can't honestly say that I, I mean, I felt nervous too to, you know, like while in wardrobe, while in the trailer, while, you know, getting on set and then, you know, being introduced to everyone. Like there was I was nervous up to then, but I guess, I don't know. I guess after introductions. Yeah, it then there was an ease because once seated and you know, go through a rehearsal or whatever it then I don't know it just but I don't know, maybe I was still nervous. Maybe I was still nervous and shell shocked. But yeah it yeah. People are really nice to you. You don't you don't like you were saying how nice Meryl Streep was like when they when when they come up to you and and they're cool with you, they sort of break the ice and you feel a little bit more relaxed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, but once it became about the words, like, you know, I've listened to the words in my head and then, you know, like hearing everyone say them or whatever, I mean, I guess it was that definitely was a difference between how I was saying them in my head to, you know, having everyone else say them, oh, my God. Especially Mark Rylance. My God, he's he's brilliant. But like once that whole process is going on and it's just about me listening and responding. So, I mean, that eases some of the nerves of of me being in the mode of, you know, of my job. But leading up to, I guess me saying, you know, or hearing action or whatever, I'm in my head about, you know, what's the line with the lines? Interestingly, though, on a project that's coming up that that I had a number of lines that the the so sometimes film is shot in sections where or like in like groups like you know that you can like just say this group of lines for like the next hour and so they switch over you know, that you're not going to like go through a number of pages. Well, this particular thing the director decided or asked if everyone was okay with doing ten pages straight. Now, like that's a lot to like dialog to film continuously because it's yeah it's not normally done. You know. Isn't aren't scripts usually prepared like so that. You know hopefully. Each page is a. Minute correct. Yeah. So this was yeah. So this was, was and shooting on film. So they were doing it again using mags, you know. I mean it's 20 minute mags but, but so they were shooting anyway. So it worked. But because. Of. Being used to it being done one way, I was not a number of us weren't prepared for that, but it worked out. But so initially I thought, oh my God, I don't know all of the lines on this. I was waiting till we got there because of repetition. Then you learn it, you know? Yeah. And yeah. So, so that initially threw me and I was in my head about it like, oh, when we get to this part, what is that one that keeps for me or what is that? But again, it all, it all worked out. But, but, yeah, that, that it made me more nervous. That was why that made me more nervous than the, than working with the celebs and don't look up I mean mind you this also had celebs so you know, I could have been nervous from from the people that I was working with. But but more so because of the big block that we were about to tackle that we successfully did, too. By the way. Have you have you worked with any particular actors that you are enamored with because they you feel like they're so talented or is everybody just pretty much the same? I've been blessed to I would say that I mean, everyone that I've worked with witness lady next to me, I've had that, that, that feeling about like this the past year where it was it felt like it's not like masterclasses that I got to sit in on and and and have this out-of-body experience with because yeah. It's just, you know, like continually pinching myself like, wow, I'm actually sitting here, you know, having scripted lines with so-and-so or, you know, or then having a conversation about blah, blah, blah, whatever, and being able to, you know, just like watch their process and incorporate it into my process. And, you know, all of it. It's just been like, wow. And it's an it's quite interesting. There is I can't say that there's any current living artist that I'm like starstruck over that I would that I can't quite talk or be myself around the Cicely Tyson was one such person that I couldn't be myself around. What was that name again? Cicely Tyson, the first black woman to win an Oscar for best actor. And yeah, she's is uncertain now. She is one of but yeah. So aside from aside from her I've never been I mean there I mean, I'm in awe of trans folk but yeah, I've always felt comfortable around, you know, great talents. But yeah, it's, it's to actually get to, to interact with them, you know, in directed scripted scenes it's pretty cool for glass. Does getting a good night's sleep affect your performance or not getting into. That? I don't know. I can't really say that. Honestly. Had a good night's sleep. I sleep have a weird sleep schedule that happens. Like I could sleep like a couple of hours and be fine. I get up late Zero Dark 30 every morning. Yeah, I can go to bed late, but I take a lot of naps throughout the day. Once I became a senior citizen, I notice that started napping a lot. But you don't fall asleep on the job on the set, right? No, I have not fallen asleep on set yet. That's a that's a concern of mine. Then you fall asleep. Yeah. Narcolepsy hasn't hasn't quite setting that. You know, if that I don't know if that that just sets in I think you. Know, it doesn't. Know, right. Yeah. Kevin is full of surprises How are you doing, Phines? I'm doing good. I'm good. How about yourself? I'm good. I'm, um. Yeah, I wanted to ask you guys because you've had just such, like, an amazing success for, you know, since we last seen you. How do you navigate the successes with, if you've ever had them, the not so great times or, you know, the actor dry spells? Any time that I'm not on set, it feels like it's a dry spell to me. Speaking for a friend of mine. Yeah, I. I mean, I don't know. I guess internal hope and belief that more is, is, is coming. I love the word the New York State motto, Excelsior ever upward. And yeah, I just believe that if I keep my belief, then that to keep me going, then there's always going to be something coming. And it just. Yeah, it just seems to to just pop up out of nowhere. All I mean, it all depends on the length of time in between jobs. I mean, if it's a really long time, it's, you know, it can be discouraging at times. But I try to consider myself between jobs while, you know, when I'm not working and just, you know, you just have to believe that the next job is right around the corner. Otherwise sounds as though you guys do a lot of traveling to get to different jobs. Now, does the studio or your manager or whatever make the arrangements for for you or you have to do that yourself, you know, as far as motels and getting there and all that kind of you know, they. Make their. Own they issues. Yeah, yeah. For every job that I've ever had that I've had to travel, travel for, they gave me the job, the transportation for me is provided that they pay for it, they book it. And in fact, the last this this TV series, I had one instance where I had to travel from the TV shoot to a job with my band, and I ended up having to change once they were trying to book me, actually choosing the location where we would performing with the band. But they, they ended up because the dates were sort of mixed up, ended up bring me back home, but they handled everything I thought I might have to take it over, but they handled everything for me. They changed the flight for me. They, they booked everything. They booked cars to get me from home to the airport. They're really wonderful about that. That's a big deal. Getting from, you know, getting around and getting a place to stay and not having to worry about those issues. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's really a relief, and I have to take care of anything that I do. Children's theater was one of my first union jobs. My first union job. They actually got me my Actors Equity Association contract. And it it was a you know, the cast members were also considered assistant stage managers and Sam's and we part of our job was to load and unload the set and to drive the vehicles around. And although they booked our hotels and stuff, we drove all the cars. It was, you know, you get up in the early morning shows, you get up early in the morning, you drive to the venue, you do the show sometimes two shows and you break it all back down. After you build the set, you break it all back down, put it in the van and drive to the next venue. And that was that was quite a tedious job. I don't think I want to do that now. But, you know, when you're when you're a kid trying to get your equity card, that's that's paying you dues and all get it. But it was the next the next tour that I got, I was like, I don't have to drive to either, like new, you know, you don't have to drive whole all just bad or it depends on the job you did. Did you audition for our kind of people? Was that a self tape or was that in person? It was self tape, yeah. I don't I don't know that there. No, actually I think I have had a couple of in-person auditions since since the COVID shut down and since things opened back up. But yeah, almost all of my auditions are or self tapes as well. As I've been a hard transition for you guys. Sometimes. You know, when when. I'm. At home, but when out on the road somewhere or vacationing or whatever it can, it can prove a test. You can prove that challenging. Wall or whatever. To to get, you know, make to ensure good sound and lighting and, you know, without having to, you know, without, you know, bringing a bunch of gear. But in the beginning, I hated it. I hated some taping. And I mean, that was before COVID. That was when it you know, when people first started getting into self-hate. When was that? I don't know. It's been maybe five or six. Well, I had to self tape for the job that I did with Kevin. That was 2019, probably like 2000 1718. It started to become a thing. Everybody wasn't doing it for stage here in New York. Most of our auditions, most of most of the work in New York City for ever has been stage and stage. We would always do live auditions. We didn't ask myself what it's for if it's just something that wasn't here. Like the show that we did together was a stage production, but it was in Vermont, and because I couldn't go and do it, the audition live, I had to send the self tape for that. But I used to hate self tape and I discovered after after dating Kevin that I was doing them wrong anyway. But not everybody has a Kevin and Kevin is very adept with cameras and lights and you know, so he'll set everything up for me. Meet my auditions and your read with me. And, you know, it's made life in that department very, very much easier. Yeah. So now self taping is not an issue. But you know, before I started seeing him, it was, you know, setting. I didn't have a real backdrop. I used a curtain like a little valance for my for my curtains. I would take that and tack it to the wall in front of my desk and make sure it was straight. And then I would set my cam, my, my phone up on and I went on a tripod and I would use sometimes I didn't even have a reader. I would use my iPad and I would say the opposite lines and you know, and I just push play on that. And I'd be reading with myself, which people still do occasionally. But, you know, it was just this. Do you not use your iPhone just to give context, anybody that's listening that we're nerding out on acting right now, but the I guess three years ago ish or longer, everybody used to go into a room. So if you wanted any job in television or theater, you'd go in and read with the casting director. And before COVID, it felt like there was like a slow shift where we were expected to sell a tape, like send in the actual auditions. And since the pandemic, it's I haven't been in the room once. It's all been self taped. But do you not use your. We do we do. I always use my iPhone. I used to do it like the the vertical. And I suppose that is supposed to do horizontal. And because of my backdrops, because my backdrop was narrow, I always set my phone up narrow that. Yeah, yeah. No, they, they, they, they don't mind you using your phone. So we do use our phone. Although for a while Kevin was setting up an actual camera. He has magnificent camera equipment and we would set up an actual number for it. But we've discovered that it's pretty simple to just use. And because the iPhones photograph so well, now we are able to use those for them, you know, we can airdrop them to each other. And it just it's it has made life a lot easier. And to be able to do that, we can even. So it's the the wrong stuff that Kevin is teaching is that it's just all technical things. Wrong cell phones to. People. What are doing right. And he was doing awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Stopping you from doing wrong. That was also it's not. The stuff that you that he corrected in my behavior like that. Yes that was yeah like you know in fact now most of the break breakdowns will tell you to set your phone up horizontally on a tripod, because that's that's the direction of film. It's it's you know, it's always like, why is like that? You know. Do you find you guys have you found that you're adjusting your performances or your auditions from a self tape versus when I was in the room? Absolutely. I do. Because because well, I'm I used to be primarily a stage actor. And although I know that, you know, there's a difference between, you know, auditioning for film and television and not just shooting the stage. My auditions have always been my auditions. You know, it's just I've never I adjusted for film and television auditions, but, um, but my auditions are definitely different now that, that I have this little tiny camera in front of me than they used to be in the room with you. So what would you say to someone that is still has still only done theater and wants to make that switch? Years ago, I was accused of doing what they call mugging, which is, you know, if you're many, many stage actors, you you you want your performance has to reach people up in the rafters. And so people that perform on stage generally perform much bigger. It's just a bigger performance. And when you're performing for film and television, it's it's it's really the lens of the camera that's capturing you. And so if you're performing that big, it just looks almost clownish. And you almost like if you're seeing, like, you know, sometimes people in smaller roles and and of things that are shot in New York, you know, sometimes see that they're, you know, maybe may not have really made the transition very well yet, but you really just kind of try to do the same get the same thing across, but in smaller proportion so that it's not so big. You're not trying to reach people in the rafters. You're trying to just it's just this little tiny lens that you're getting into and you want to sort of dial it down a little bit, if that really made any sense. You know, you can basically you can be you can you can be too big for film on the television. And that and the other the other way around also translates to, I've seen people who are traditionally stage and film actors. I mean film and television actors get on the stage and be too small for the stage. They do. They don't. They don't they're not used to, you know, having to reach the people in the back. And so they don't. Yeah, I saw a movie or I think it was of Mice and Men and James Franco. And James Franco, but he was very successful in film. And then he did like one Broadway play where I don't think he's ever done this before. And I saw him live and he was like terrible. Like, really like he was, he was like trying to play with cards and whatever and you couldn't hear him. And it just like he like, shrill. And it. Was very. Interesting. And that's another thing. I mean, people in this world stage like that, I mean, that stage and film, I'm confusing myself in film and TV. You're told to speak softer and you'll notice it, or you may not. But some people whisper almost for film and TV and that you can't do that on stage. You have to be and you know there are there are there are. I mean, Meryl Streep and Denzel Washington, they're classically they're trained for theater and they you know, they manage that crossover very well. You wouldn't know it. But they're you know, they're they they're they're theatrically trained actors. And so, you know. So is Mark Rylance you. Oh, my God. We as well that. I love how you were you you're acting with Meryl Streep Jonah Hill I think Leo and then you're like Mark Rylance is a good. Phenomenal. Good. Well. I don't know. I'm kidding. But obviously they're the great. Well, I watched the the the director Adam McKay gave a lot of leeway for like after we did what was scripted. He then allowed for four alternate versions of it and a lot of outwitting and was encouraging, you know, a bunch of I mean there's lots more footage, I'm sure with any film there's always a lot more footage than you get to see on the edited version. Anyway, so we did all of this extra stuff and there was this one point where he had given a suggestion to Mark, along with a couple of extra multi syllabic words that were part of the, I guess, list of elements that he was saying was part of this asteroid that this media that was going to to to kill it hurt. You know, I might have had a problem with this branding. So yeah. So and saying, okay, yeah, do it this way or whatever is like, do you need time to work on it? And he took like literally 30 seconds and then just like ran it off and it was like, oh my God, it was just he yeah. I mean, they're all brilliant. I mean, Jonah Hill. Oh, my God. His he's so quick witted. It's it was just yeah, as I said, it was like a masterclass. This not everybody in that scene is one of my favorite moments. Be right back. Talks among yourselves. Yeah. I'm sure you guys, you know, people that are in the cast like yourselves are always almost always very nice people, but they ever have a problem with any cast members or or a director that you know, is offensive to you, is that. I'm usually the offensive one right now, but I'm like, I'm going to be there. So no, I I've actually not had that I can think of not on camera. Have I worked with. Yeah. You don't want to, you don't want to name any names. Oh I would if I had. An home. But no I yeah I mean I would, I could certainly, you know, say, oh I had a bad experience with so-and-so and. I don't think that it's, it's I mean, if, if I had a bad experience with someone, I don't think that I think that it's okay for me to share. I mean, as long as I'm not, you know, badmouthing and bashing him or whatever, but to share what my actual experience was. But especially in all of the work that I've been blessed with this past year, I it's they've, they've been masterclasses for me. It's just been absolutely amazing. I'm next this coming Tuesday the first I'm on an episode of FBI Most Wanted and filming that that experience was just like again this nominal cast of people are. You the cop or the fugitive? I'm a I'm a you have to tune in. Oh, okay. I. I, I was quite surprised to, in conversation with the cast while not while it not being scripted to hear their native accents, it just it blew my mind and yeah, that's that's blew my mind that not one person sounds the way they sound when they're in their character. It's like. Wow, wow. But yeah, phenomenal, phenomenal cast. Oh, my gosh. They were just they were the that's the bee's knees. Yeah. That's this coming Tuesday, February 1st.

10: 54:35

00, I believe in. In. In CBS. Same the same show that the fellow whose son was killed or killed is like the host in the show, or is that a different show? And this is a it's a Dick Wolf series. They have FBI comes on it, A, and then there's FBI International and then FBI most wanted. Yeah. For Homeland of FBI. All sounds like you're getting a lot of work. I think I've been accumulating some questions in my head as I've been listening. I guess the first one is how long have you guys been together? You might have said the last time you're on, but I just just wanted to say. Well, it's grown since the last time we've been on. It's 1472. It looked like. In 17. Hours, I guess. And that's why we've been together, right? Yeah. One, two, three years now. Wow, modulations. Thank you. My next question was, you said you finished the series recently, both of you. But but I just went. This is your first this is like the first series. You start it from beginning to end. Have you done multiple like TV series compared to other acting? Like, are you is it is it normal for you guys to have like do a series from like a TV series? You No, this is normal. This is this whole covert year of work has been yeah, it's been abnormal. And we've had different experiences in our series. Kevin's been in a number of TV series this year. He was in New Amsterdam law and Order. Law and Order. Organized crime, FBI's Most Wanted. He's you know, he's he's done a number of series. I was yeah but and nothing is normal like Kevin said. I mean, I'm sort of transitioning from stage to television film and we've actually done our own thing to it. You know, I wrote and directed a short film that Kevin and I costarred in Get we're in post-production. It's just we're just finishing out. We want to sort of submit it to film festivals. And then we have another short film that Kevin starred in that I directed, and that one is in post-production. So we, we, we filmed the whole thing and we're having it edited right now. It's 1 to 3 times the length and the one that I wrote. But I have also written a pilot. I've written that hasn't we haven't done it yet, but we acted in a pilot that that's being written for us and so we've been keeping busy with all kinds of things. And, and I've been I've done a lot of writing and trying to complete a play, this theater that we both worked for, Kevin and his work for them a number of times, Capital Repertory Theater in Albany. They have this playwriting series, everything, where they try to, you know, they take submissions for new plays. And there's a January 31st deadline. I'm trying to meet with a play that I've written, so we just kind of keep ourselves busy doing all sorts of things. Well, I mean, this kind of it didn't answer my question, but this wraps around tomorrow. He's going to say, yes. It's no big deal because it actually goes right to where I really the most important question or something has really been kind of sitting in my head more than anything is I've been thinking about I've been listening to podcasts too, about like meaningless jobs or jobs that are meaningful and, you know, just like jobs and just don't think are important, like working in an office and you feel like you go home, you go, I don't know what my job is for, right? So I hear you guys talking and I'm like, Now this is meaningful work, right? Because this is something that you get up and you would do regardless of if someone was paying you or not, I would think. Maybe it seems like you've come off fairly passionate. I I'm wondering if you've ever worked two jobs you felt like was B.S. or have you been lucky enough to kind of just been been writing the meaningful way? I have worked in restaurants from that actor for over 30 years and although it has paid my bills and I would say when I was younger, I might have found it challenging that that's work to me. And they say if you you know, if you have a job that you love, it's you never consider at work. It's you know, it's just something that you love doing and you do it stage and film and television. And my audiobooks are are never work to me. You know, they're it's something that I love doing. And I it's it's more like the next project rather than, than just some sick job that I'm doing. Okay. Yeah, but, I mean. But is it. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm just kidding. Yeah, no, go ahead. WILLIAMSON All right. That was all of it was all I had. No, no, that was. Not for me. I, I interestingly vacillate between whether or not this is a job with purpose or not. I sometimes like I have to, to, to, to. And sometimes I feel guilty about having a job that I don't feel is a job that I love to do. And, and it to the point where I think, wow, well, there are all of these like meaningful jobs out there, first responders, you know, doing work, teachers, you know, all of these meaningful things. But, you know, I have a job where I make people laugh or cry or smile or whatever. And, you know, I have to remind myself that that does give meaning, you know, to to because there is meaning behind it. There are times where I can easily get caught up in the the stigma of of being an actor, an actor that's not, you know, and on TV or on anything that's that's visible where yeah. It doesn't where it where it doesn't feel good to be an actor because you know friends will unknowingly same things, you know, that, that that, you know, are are hurtful you know to actors and I can't think of. Even family. Yeah yeah yeah so so it's easy to from that I guess conditioned myself to to easily think that that acting is, is a hobby or that acting is something to the extracurricular thing, that it's not a career to be taken seriously. But thankfully it is. And I do believe that, you know, I bring myself around to realize that, yes, it has great meaning and it it does a great deal for people. So, you know, there's a lot of education that happens through you. I mean, I think that the majority of of of what we get to learn and I think that it's one of the best ways of of of teaching, of, you know, seeing people's experiences lived out, you know, through comedy or drama. I've also had projects that I've been on where the script was just horrible and condescending and, you know, just it it doesn't shed a good light on black people or not not a good light, but just like, misrepresents people. And I'm not I'm not going to do that, you know, I'm not going not if it were a true story and something bad happened, I get it. Or if it's a well-written story and you know, I get it. But if it's just something that is just misrepresents people, I'm not I'm not doing that. I'm not going to let you, you know, make us look like crap just for your benefit or. So I just turned down some work because the scripts just weren't this one. Yeah, well. There's something interesting that. Well, you guys said everything interesting, but. Well, given the talk about meaning for his job for being an actor in in film, like, is it meaningful? Because I'm looking at it as an aspiring artist that wants to do something and I'm thinking like, yeah, of course you're you're meaningful work because it's meaningful to me, right? But I get what you're saying because probably so many times if someone does what we think is a meaningless job that someone may be looking at and go, Oh, that's something that, you know, I might want to do. I'm sure maybe somebody is looking up to someone in a cubicle and go, I want to do that, man. I want to I want to sit around, do nothing. And I don't think there's any such thing as a meaningless job. I mean, every job. I mean, I think, you know. And what about the pyramid schemes? What about like what about like when it is like it just feels like they're just sometimes I just think that it's a job just for capitalism. Yeah, that's that's a good point. I was speaking more like, you know, people who do what's considered kind of grunt work as yeah, those, those are necessary jobs that maybe nobody likes doing, but I mean, meaningless. But you're. Right. I think these are not they're not made for jobs. I also say for the psyche of people, too, because I think people know when they're doing something that's not very meaningful, I think, and they don't feel good about it. And that's like a good argument. So I'm going, Oh no, not universal health or universal income type of thing. But I don't think people are going to just sit around and do nothing. If they have if they have opportunity to do nothing, they would probably do something. They they made them for meaning because I get sad when I'm doing something that is not meaningful. When I do a job that I feel like is not needed, I get depressed about working. But then if I'm doing something even, it's a hard. If I'm doing something, I'm like, even if it's running food, at least I know I'm running food like this. It means something. So compared to like, I don't know. Yeah like doing like pyramid scheme stuff makes me sad cause I'm like, what am I doing here? What is this? What a job is this? Who's getting paid from all this? Right, that's it. Yeah, but I sit corrected. No, no, no, no idea what you're saying, because at this, in the same breath, it's like you're saying every job that if is given someone something to do is a meaningful job. I shouldn't be rude. Somebody's been crying right now. No, you're right. I mean, you know, a job that is, you know, people making their living off of off of stealing from other folks that's in my might be considered a but that's not a meaningful job that's horrible right? Well entertainment certainly enriches people's lives. I know all the time that my wife and I spend watching acting on television so, you know, it brings a lot into your life. And also takes you away when you wouldn't. Otherwise. I think life would be kind of boring without it, without entertainment or music or whatever, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask to what you guys were talking about, like to to people that are, I don't know, even high school or whatever it is. Like younger people that, like, do find it very meaningful. What what's your advice to them? Like, what would you say someone that's listening that is like wanting to pursue dream. A. Go for it if I mean if it's a dream that is fulfilling and is not harmful to anyone else or yourself, go for it with one life and start to live it, you know and regret. Evan and I grew up know we're a little bit older than you, but I do not have the means that kids have today. I mean, you can put yourself out there doing whatever it is that you want your love to do. So if you're you know, if you if you're I if your if you imagine yourself being a filmmaker or an actor or a singer or whatever you have, all you need to do is pick up your phone and start recording yourself, doing whatever it is that you enjoy doing and you're out there. It's so much easier for people nowadays to create. And that's the biggest thing if you're if you're artistically inclined, no matter what it is that you enjoy doing, whether it's, you know, drawing or painting or acting or singing or whatever or writing poetry, anything you have, you have so much at your fingertips, at your disposal to use. And I say, use it, use it all. Do whatever you can to put yourself out there. And that it's it's such a blessing to have those opportunities. I had an opportunity to get a scholarship when I was in high school, but in order to get that scholarship, I had to send I had to make a videotape of myself performing videotape. And in order to do that, I would have to hire someone to filming I to pay for a studio. And it was that all this money that my family didn't have so I lost out on the opportunity of getting a scholarship to go to college because I didn't have the means to get the scholarship. So, you know, any time anybody's interested in doing anything, even if it's just a little interest, even if you just like, you know, what it would that would be like this this young man that was in this is what that young man that was in this this thing that Kevin found. And he loved it so much that he just started reaching out to Kevin like, you know, how do I do this? How I do this? What do I do with my doing? You know, Kevin's been sort of trying to mend not not really meant to him, but try to encourage him, you know, well, try this. We'll do this. Well, next thing you need to do is do this because you have to put the work in. Mhm. You have to work at what it is that you enjoy doing. You know there may be 1% of performers that actually just things fall into their lap. Most people you have to work to get what you get. Yeah. And I think that number. The 1% is even higher. Percentage I think 1%. But then from the other side of the coin is that there's a lot more competition, isn't there? A lot more people want to be in the acting field or want to be a singer or whatever. I don't I don't know that that's true. I don't know that there's any more people in that. Well, there are. I mean I mean, if we would look at the census, there's probably more people, period. But I don't know that there's any more people now than there were then that would be interested in it. I just think that everybody has the same opportunities now that didn't them for. Yeah, I think that will because of. The. Access because of the available resources to create. Now I think that not that there's more interest there's more examples of interest that are out there now. You know, floodgates are open. You know, it's like back in the day when, you know, before, you know, this digital world that we're in, someone you know, it wasn't that everyone couldn't be a writer because pens and pencils were sold everywhere. But, you know, you didn't see that everyone wanted to be a writer. You know, now with everyone having access to, you know, the and, you know, photography gear via their phone, it's easy for any and everyone to just say, okay, I'm going to be a filmmaker and then show you the work that they're, you know, being a filmmaker with or whatever. You no longer have to move to the big city. You can live in the smallest rural, rural town and create on your device. And and then we're planning to do that. Yeah. Yeah. As well. Like before, you know, even if everyone wanted to be a writer and went out and bought pens or whatever and pencils, didn't have the platforms for people to self-publish as. We do today. To produce a show, whether it's for television or stage or whatever is I'm is expensive. How do you get the backing? Is it necessary to get backing for, you know, whatever production is to do it for whatever. It's going to be, if it's going to be on on anything that's controlled by, you know, if it's going to be on on a major network or if it's going to be done by, you know, a major studio or something, that backing comes through specifically in television, comes through sponsors, you know, paying for the commercials, for the ads that that air during that timeslot is is what it's paid for. So you could essentially, like, not have have a budget, not have any money, and but have a great product or a great script or a series or whatever, but have connections to, you know, a number of sponsors that are willing to to pay the at times. And you can walk into the studio and say, hey, I want this show to air at this time. And these are the ads that are going to to to pay for it. And as long as those ad, you know, the airtime is covered, you know, you've got yourself a show. I've watched it also, like if you're trying to anything you're trying to create cost money. I mean, if you're if you're trying to do it yourself or like a film, you know, it depends on the budget. But if you're doing like a web series, it might be a lot, a lot less of an investment than it would be to. Well, the reason I gave that example is because in in this industry, I guess with anything barter can can take the place of actually having fun. So again, you know, and and knowing people. So if I if I know, let's say I know someone that works at DuPont and and I also know someone that works at Lockheed Martin. And I know someone, you know, like if I if I have friends in these places and I can say, hey, would you guys do a commercial sponsored me for commercial during this time period or whatever. If I can get people to to run a commercial to promote their stuff during a specific time period, I don't have to come in with any money for a project, at least on television, because that's that's what television is about. It's about, you know, airspace selling ads. If you've got great ads, then you get great, you know, prime spots. If you got, you know, if I can only get Bronco or Kato to to sponsor something as opposed to getting Madden NFL or PlayStation to sponsor something, then I'll end up, you know, in like 2 a.m. time slots or the time slots where, you know, you know, the, the commercials run for gambling debt. Or. You know what I mean? So it's a I mean, I guess everything is barter are both bearable. But yeah, it, it costs money to do all of these things. But now. Sponsorship can you can get that without having. And I. Enjoy listening to music on on the TV and I've noticed that like every song that I pull up has a sponsor and they're usually pretty substantial companies. So there's a lot of money, I guess, out there to, you know, to sponsor, sponsor all types of production. Phines and I were talking about this on the phone literally last week, but just like making stuff and just like doing it even, like it's so hard to make anything and and not because not a means version of like, not being able to make it, but like a, it's so scary, you know, it's like make a work of art or something like that. And then once you do it and like the fear is it'll be terrible. And then if it's terrible, then it's heartbreaking. But then you do it again and you do it again and you do it again and it gets like a little better. And it's, like, so satisfying. And I feel like recently I don't know, I don't know. And Phines had really good insight in this, but like, just like doing because you love it until it starts feeling good, you know. That's great. It's interesting when you when you were just saying that the things that I heard were were you said scary and and and I didn't say fear, but it amounted to fear. But it did. I thought to myself, wow, it sounds like fear, fearing hearing disapproval and putting out the art. Like, that's the hard part about making it. Is that okay? Well, will it be accepted? Or like I was thinking about that and like there are a number of things that, that I want to do or that I've thought to do or that I may have started doing and having completed because I didn't think, Oh, well, the world doesn't need another one of these, or so-and-so has already one of these out. So like, you know, am I really going to be improving this or, you know, and I start thinking of all of these different ways of of discrediting myself as opposed to just believing in myself and just doing it. I start judging myself from what? Oh, well, so-and-so might think that that's stupid. So, yeah, I shouldn't do that. And instead of just saying Making art, for heaven's sake, you know, then do that. Then it's done and it's out there and it can it can receive whatever judgments, you know, are up or because it's already done, you know. But like people, people from the outside don't know how how everybody here is an artist but like how vulnerable it is. Like if someone comes and sees your play, like as you're getting off the stage, like, you know, like they could say something like a dagger where any other time I fuck, you know, I don't care at all. It's very yeah. I think we're also very sensitive folks, actors. We are, we are. You know, in order to be able to tap into those feelings, you have to have the feelings know. And we're highly critical of ourselves and you know. Yeah. Any any kind of bad vibes that you get from something that you've done can, you know, it hurts very deeply. And I think that can be true for even the hardest person. You know, someone that's not really in touch with their feelings would never admit how effective they are by the things that people say about them or to them. But, you know, it's got to hurt to some degree. But to us, yeah, you know, it's it can be a huge setback can mean, you know, you sitting in your place depressed rather than putting yourself back out there the next the next day or, you know. Yeah. Very vulnerable. Phines Yes. Phines As you're making art, since like I forget when whenever we were talking about this, but like now day. Right, right. Wow. Oh, my God. I. That's awesome. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with what you guys are saying. I think I agree with Kevin a lot. A lot today. I mean, not that any other day, but I definitely was and still am afraid of doing art. Ah, make yourself vulnerable. But also what you said as well. The we're also human though and we're all in that same. I really noticed that even the hardest person since we're all human, we're all communicating. That means we care about people's opinions because we're social and stuff so I think everyone's afraid of the environment, but we also like seeing it too. So the more you do it, the more people I don't know if people like it, but the more I think at least it's like shock therapy, basically, where I kind of get used to it and just go like at first I was really afraid of it and afraid of what people are saying. But now I just do it so much that I'm like, fuck it. Like, I mean, it is, it is more about me and less about what people think about me is more like how I can articulate myself better and stuff like that. And the little bit of being the fear is still there, but in a way, you know, it goes and comes. It depends. You know, you can you know what I'm still going right now is you can hear a bunch of people say, wow, and it better be that one person and be, like you said, sucks and. You. Just look at it. It's just for days. Now, I kind of maybe I'm wrong about this, but I feel like you get more of that through you kind attitude from some people who who their whose art form is to your right or whatever. I feel like many, many I feel maybe it's because that art form you do because it's something that's in your heart. You put that out there because it's because you appreciate it and you're like, screw you. You know, I, you know, I love what I created. I feel like more, more artists that that whose medium is, you know, canvas on paper. I hear that from, you know, that f use or attitude as opposed to know did I do okay or what do you think where Kevin I torture him with my like whenever I do an audition I make him like you please help me with this. I don't know which to send. Like, I just, you know, I, I, I need that. I need somebody to tell me that it's good. It will is good to which one is right and that but I feel like people whose art form is canvas or paper, they, you know, they, it's. There's, there's a little bit of a like anonymous anemone, whatever, like anonymity isn't that so? Even though it is me when I'm drawing and stuff. But there is I can at least cover it up a little bit instead of when you're acting, even though you're acting as a role. Still people I think I think, I don't know because I'm an actor, but I can assume that when someone tells me my acting is bad compared to like my drawing is bad, I think I would take the acting a little bit back. It's like you're kind of saying, I'm bad. I mean, right, right. Where if I'm if I'm drawing, someone tells me that my drawing is bad. I go for now, you know, or are just for the second, you know, I can get better at math. You can get better at acting. But I could I could see the difference. I could I could definitely see. But also, maybe they don't like it, but, you know, somebody will. You know, interestingly, it's awesome to hear, you know, art the the. The. Interestingly like if someone were to say and I wish people would were more forthright and and you know giving honest assessments of of of plays or or words. But if someone were to say, yeah, my sister would say that like you were horrible. You're bad. My sister would tell me that. But what it would do is she she sees said things like that to me in the past, but it will make me that kind of honesty. Well, like, if it were said to me about acting, I would then I probably have already felt something similar. To myself. Already. Right. But I think that what I know that what would mean for me as far as acting is that I was in my head or that I was was was, was not true to a character. I wasn't being vulnerable. I was instead being self-conscious and and judging myself. And because I was getting in the way of myself like that, it could appear bad or inauthentic. So so that can be a very valid critique from someone to me. So, so yeah. So I would, I would appreciate that would see me, that sort of thing. And like you're acting suck. Yeah. I can't imagine. That sounds like to me like she, she believes in you and knows your potential and she's like, you didn't meet the potential that I know that you have, which is different from the sometimes where it's like the person that is like you're not it for you will never be it for them kind of thing, you know. So yeah, yeah. This is a question too for I mean, goes back to that shock. The more you do it, the more you get criticized more or the more you just put it out there. It still seems, though, like you know what it means pigeonhole you. Actors am, I guess, still soft, basically, is what I'm hearing that you still that it's no I'm just don't get it I don't mean that I mean, I'm just poking fun. I know that you guys are sensitive. I but it still it still affects you pretty pretty hard. Some some of you. I think it's all different. It seems like maybe it gets a little easier for some of you or some of it does are what what do you feel about criticism? I. I I guess it depends on where it's coming from and what's being said, how it's being said. I mean, it's, you know, oh, my God. As Brandon said earlier, well, you know, it's like, you know, coming off that stage, you know, someone can say all kinds of things to you any other time. But that in that one particular time, that it can affect you that way. So, yeah, it depends on the circumstance and depends on what's being said. What would you rather have it being someone random or someone close to say something? Because now I'm thinking about it. I don't think I only I care about other random people, but it would probably hurt my feelings if like someone of my family was like, that's bad. Yeah, I guess it would. It would depend on the situation. I mean, I can make a case for, for both situations. So yeah. I guess it would depend it then though ultimately does go back to me to, to correct it to make it feel better for myself and that it's about, you know, and knowing that art is subjective, whether or not to, you know, judging the how it was delivered, you know, what the intent was. If it were a stranger, you know it can. Yeah, there are too many variables. Yeah. Yeah. And it would have to, I'd have to just judge it based on the situation. I feel. But constructive criticism to me if it's, you know, whether it's family or friends or completely straight, complete stranger, you know, if somebody is telling someone if the criticism the criticism that I'm getting is, you know, it's not not coming at you with daggers, but from an actual positivity, it's it's, you know, it's easier to take. It's usually like that, you know, like help you to do a better job next time or to see something differently. Yeah. What were you about to say, Brandon? Oh I don't know. I just I had this one the, when I went to acting school or whatever the very last class and the very last day, I had a really Kathleen McManus, an amazing teacher. The last thing she said was, this is the one advice I want you all to take is if you go and you see someone show and it was the worst thing you've ever seen and you hated it more than anything in the world. I want you to walk up to that person and I want you to say thank you. And that's it nothing else. So I don't know if I exactly agree with the but yeah, but I hear both. I think I disagree with that a little bit. I think I think sorry I'm agree with Kevin. So I mean it it really is all contextual like I it depends I want someone to tell me what they think so I can improve but then the same time. Yeah, but, but, but, but what, what, what, what do any of them know. And they could be completely right but it's, they're on the outside and then what you're doing, whether you're. Honestly they. Could be going up on stage, that's from the inside. I mean, it's it's a different experience when you're like, I. Personally try not to say anything negative about somebody's work anyway. You know, I there's an old saying, if you have nothing good to say, say anything at all. You know, I guess I don't lie about it. And that's what you're that's what your professor or mentor was telling you. You know, don't don't you know, if you do a bunch of bullshit, if someone tell them that was great, you know, if you have if you can say something constructive constructively, if you feel like, you know, the person's close enough to you to pull them aside and say, hey, you know, that was, you know, that was whatever. But yeah, you know, I see what both of you where both of you coming from. I think the both of you are saying that idea that, you know. I just you know, no, I was going to say agree I was going to say something else that you guys said that I was like sometimes sometimes not. Oh, about I'm sometimes the most sensitive to criticism things that I know. Like if I know that there's something wrong on like a drawing or whatever, a standup bit or a podcast, I know I said something wrong is when that person calls that out is what I'm though. Even though I knew about it the whole time, like, yeah, I knew that I was doing it wrong. But when you said it, it really hurt. I definitely fall prey to that same thing with like, yeah, I want my I want I want my audience. I want to please my audience. So I want them to tell me if something is like if I can improve on something, you know, so I want them to tell me. But then I don't know. I don't know. We'll see. I'll let you know as I go. Well, when you do a comedy, you can kind of you know, you can judge that by the laughter or the lack of right. And, you know, that's kind of a bitter like, you know, people will be painfully honest after that like that jokes, stuff like that. People, you know, they don't as if you have no feelings. But yeah, all right. Like if the if if you already weren't laughing, I knew the joke sucked. And then you go, Well. Let's make it funny. Yeah, but. Someone, someone could walk up to you and be like, that joke sucks. But then you were there and you heard a big laugh, right? Right. Like, right of that. You know, it's funny. Oh, yeah? What about you with your art, Sierra? What do you think I would? I love getting feedback. Like I had a professor in college that would just, like, honestly, like, we would thrive together in class because they would just rip apart like everybody shared. And it pair some people off just. Just hearing it, like, kind of rapid fire. But like in that sense, it was a learning atmosphere. So my, my viewpoint, I was just like, well, I don't want to graduate and then just only know how to make shit because, you know, nobody would tell me, you know, you kind of made some shitty shit. So. So that was like, so I loved that when I was, you know, learning. And now I kind of I like feedback. I just like it, you know? I feel like there has to be a certain point where you are able to take any kind of take almost any kind of feedback. Obviously, there's going to be like a there's a line where, you know, she gets out of pocket, but there's a certain point where you got to be able to take the criticism or be able to have something that you can of yours that you can really pick apart. And like, I have stuff that I make and stuff that I used to make old stuff that I make. And there's some old stuff where I'm just like, I just want to repress this memory. I don't want to look back here. Yeah, but then. You know, I also have a lot of I feel like most of my work I can look back and be like, you didn't know, you didn't know how it tripod worked, but now now you're a tripod mat, now you're a tripod master, babe. And I can I can you can still I can still find like either in hindsight looking like man you know, you really I can see the growth, I guess now or I can at least see, you know, man, you were really in your bag that freshman year of high school. You just you were really happy that you were really happy with this work at the time. You know, you got to be you got to be honest with people because there's some real great stuff out there, because sometimes we just be can we just be going with it? We just go with it. Well. That's a tough one that's a tough one. Do you do art for yourself or do you do it for you? I feel like you just most time I'm just very I'm just projecting them like I do art for my peeps, you know? So, I mean, I'm doing it from audience. I, I mean, not that I wouldn't probably draw. No one was around, but, you know, I make art for people most of the time. People do art in general. I think. Well, I mean, I'm sure some of is for other for themselves, but a lot of it. So someone to hear it one day or see it one day or so, that'd be the case. I should be a little bit open to criticism. Yeah, but. But it's hard because I'm like, who do you what do you know? This is my. Thinking that maybe. That is the difference between looking and seeing like like sometimes I'll get upset if I do get feedback on something because maybe in the moment you're thinking like, damn, I really like worked hard on that. But it's also I got to think of it more in terms, of like, I can do this a lot better. Like it's within me. I have that capacity to I have that capacity to, you know, exceed this bar of someone's, you know, critique. Like, you know, if I am doing a photo shoot, I can be like, no one can say that I didn't have, like, this flair or no one can say no one can challenge me on this lighting. No one can no one can challenge me on my dialog writing because, you know, I know that that so I guess it is kind of like a it's like a confidence thing. Yeah. And like a fear thing because you don't want to be afraid to. You don't want to be afraid to not even fall but just trip. Yeah. I feel like yeah, you have to have confidence to be like this is the best I'm doing right now, but also confident enough to be like, I'm going to approve, so please let me know what's going on here. Hmm. And there's a lot. If you guys. I'm sorry I wouldn't read the letters. I said in the sense here the difference between looking and seeing that. Mm mm mm mm mm. Flowers and then. Oh no just the there's this thing I read letters to a young poet where they talk about like this exact thing and like the first page or whatever um, yeah, it's a really good read if you want to check it out. Grandpa, how you feel about criticism? Well, I think it's, I think it's good. I prefer to to have a critique on what I'm doing. It helps me to, you know, to understand whether I'm doing the right thing or not, you know, whether I'm doing a good job. So it depends on, you know, to what degree the the critique is, you know, if it's if it's helpful. But, you know, acting the media is a tremendous in our society. And I'm just hoping that it can help to make this society more peaceful because we have a lot of issues right now. And we do. On a lighter note, Missy, are you a Pittsburgh Steelers fan? Oh, no. I've got some little YouTube or merch on. Or I asked only because not just because of the YouTube merch that you wear, but because of the colors. And I see that you're you're a super cool chair that you're sitting in as well as the behind you. They seem to have those colors there. I guess it's not really gold, but yeah. Don't worry. Don't worry, Kevin. I will never understand sports or. I'll never know what's going on. Gotcha. Just a nice color coordination. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got a whole motif of the black and yellow. And Phines, are you freezing since we we've since you turned your heat off? Yeah. We're it is time for the hood on right over here like nullifying live hang on any later bloviating I'm mad at him. But in case you need to the heat obviously. The hero is and I would not wanna do that I appreciate you cared about me over here like. Oh. Bigger man to me. SHAPIRO Bounce these like, man, I'm gonna go sit by the oven or something. I got a crack in my window, too, which is the worst on the winter time. Oh, my gosh. You do? Oh, no, the worst summertime is I don't know which one was worse to have it during, but they're both terrible. Yeah. No, don't do that again. We hope you will be fine. I came to the apartment this late. They were just like, Sorry, yo, I got a crack in the apartment. What are you gonna do? Nothing is actually not paid. Is a lot of money for this New York apartment. You notice the crack in the window, and you're like, Oh, that's art. So it's actually going to be $50 and stay there for the me we're charging you for behind. Implying to me. We just did 2 hours like it was nothing. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know we started this. Was considering how late we started with the dinner break. Yeah. Thanks for letting me. Yeah. Yeah, no problem. We always do. Last thoughts. If you guys are cool with it, I would just like to go around and then just end and the show. Will be answered. Since that last one. Everybody has started. So thank you guys so much for having us back. It's I you know, I'm when you're when you're an actor, you're you're you know, you're trained to be out there in the public and, you know, and you but you don't. My first band was a rock band, and I always had a hard time speaking in between songs. Like, I just never you almost have to write a script to say the right things. Otherwise you step there and all of a sudden there's crickets and so there's this moment that you need to first. Well, I'm trying not to have crickets, but to say something meaningful. Thank you. Thank you very much for having us back. And it was almost a year to the day I. Think last year was my birthday. Yeah I was one of the 13th is my birthday was last week but I think you know it's today thank you if that were the people's more yeah so so yeah that's sort of our anniversary or anniversary with you guys. Not our anniversary. It's like our anniversary passed. We were. Like, I missed your birthday and the anniversary. What about you? Last thoughts? Get out there and just do it. Nike has the best slogan. Go. I'm truly let's do it. Grandpa. Well, I will be watching for your acting on screen. And you have a smart lady there. Kevin, are you guys will both succeed. Very well. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, another last start this Tuesday, 10 p.m. on CBS. FBI Most Wanted. Check me out. All right. Totally appropriate. For. Cut out. Hopefully I'm in it. And we'll be in the. Sierra. Grandpa in jail. Gang, gang. I'm sorry. I couldn't quite hear everybody. Just hang in there. I said, grandpa in jail, gang gangs. Were the gang. And you tonight, everybody. All right, minus. And a good night, everybody.