A Conversation with Peter Johnston

Dr. Peter H. Johnston talks to us about meaningful conversations with students and colleagues, celebrating student’s efforts, the cascade effect of teaching with social imagination, and mutual respect in the classroom. Peter is known for his work exploring relationships among classroom talk, engagement, and children’s social, emotional and literate development. Peter is Professor Emeritus in the Literacy Teaching and Learning Department at the University at Albany – State University of New York.

To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2021, Apr. 13). A conversation with Peter Johnston. (Season 1, No. 22) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/2AB9-B758-8BE3-3B3B-0AEB-B

Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.

Transcript

Lindsay Persohn: 0:11

Education Research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom caffeine is here to help. Each week, I invite a top education researcher to sit down and talk with teachers about what they have learned from years of study. This week, Dr. Peter H. Johnston talks to us about meaningful conversations with students and colleagues, celebrating students efforts, the cascade effect of teaching with social imagination, and mutual respect in the classroom. Peter is known for his work exploring relationships among classroom talk, engagement, and children's social, emotional and literate development. Peter is professor emeritus in the literacy Teaching and Learning Department at the University of Albany, State University of New York. For more information about our guest, stay tuned to the end of this episode. So pour a cup of your favorite morning drink. And join me your host, Lindsay Persohn, for classroom caffeine research to energize your teaching practice. Peter, thank you for joining me, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. From your own experiences and education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?

Peter Johnston: 1:39

Well, most of my work has been spending time in teacher's classrooms. I mean, it's a real luxury to be able to do that and to have time to reflect read research and so forth, that teachers generally simply don't have. And they also don't have access, direct access to research that's published, you know, so they have to rely on the rest of us reporting it and we can be a little unreliable sometimes. So um that's sorta how I spend my time. You know, looking at those small moments of classroom life that have high leverage and children's development, and I try to notice moments of classroom life that, you know, the do that, and those little things that teachers and students do and say that, and I try to bring those into contact with research from different fields, you know, that and show what they represent, and how they rippled through the ecology of the classroom, you know, and through children's development, and so by development, and I mean, all of it, their literal, intellectual, social, emotional, you know, and individually and collectively. So, we might think that we're running teaching literacy, but the ways we go about it have consequences, the rest of children's development, you know, both in the short and the long run, you know, so me know, one of my favorite cartoons is by Betsy Streeter and I use this often in talks, it has a mother talking with her young daughter. And the mother says something like, Honey, you know, when you grow up, I want you to be assertive, independent and strong willed. But while you're a kid, I want you to be passive, pliable and obedient. And of course, people immediately see the irony in that as parents, but they don't see the irony in schools, you know, so. So my experiences that have been useful for me here are all sort of instances from being in schools classrooms, you know, Dick Allington, and I had and a bunch of others had a federal grant to study that teaching practices were referred to as exemplary teachers. I actually protested that term, because I hate the idea of having this the exemplary ones and then the rest of us, you know, but because every teacher I know, is doing some great things and some things that would be nice to, you know, develop. Anyway, we spent a lot of time in, in, in some wonderful teachers classrooms, and it was such a point of privilege, you know, and one day I was in Joan Backus classroom in New York City. And they were discussing a book and a kid on the periphery, offered a comment from somewhere well beyond left field, you know, one of those ones that you think what? And Joan responded something like, that's an interesting way to think about it. I hadn't thought about it that way. I'm going to have to think about it more. You know, her goal was clearly not to correct them, but to keep them in the conversation. And at the same time, her response conveyed to the rest of the class that when people say things that are different, we don't poopoo them we listen up because it might be something you haven't thought about yet. And I heard echoes of Joan's response among the children's conversations. And that was when I started paying more attention to the detail of teachers classroom talk seriously, you know, and I, I wrote that up in my book choice words, which seem to ring a bell for a lot of teachers. You know, another example like that would be from Susie L. Tufts kindergarten classroom in San Diego, virtually all of the kids are on free and reduced price lunch. And but she pointed out to her students that we're all teachers, you know, and as opportunities arose, she said about showing her kids how to teach, and how to learn from and with each other. So, and she would celebrate their efforts to do that, you know, so she was basically distributing teaching so that when kids run into difficulty, they don't have to wait in line for the teacher, you know, help us closer at hand. I mean, whether we like to think it or not, children learn a lot about, well, they learn a lot from each other, you know, possibly more than they do from the teacher. So, you know, we might as well help them do the best they can. And, of course, these kids will sometime grow up to be parents, and if they know how to teach, they'll deliver a different crop of kids, you know, to the school. So Susie also took children's social problem solving seriously. So, you know, if kids had a disagreement, rather than squashing it or punishing it, you know, so they could get back to the academic work, she'd take the opportunity to help the kids figure out a solution, and to learn from the process so they could solve the problem themselves next time. Of course, that meant they could work together more effectively, they'd feel more secure in their learning community and feel more competent, and these are, you know, human needs. But that sent me off studying, you know, how teachers can build classroom learning communities in the the language we use, that helps children know how to learn and live together. And that was sort of the foundation of the book, opening minds. You know, the kids in classrooms like Susie's are happy. And they like being in school, you know, and happy children are better learners. But I also often thought how Susie's teaching wasn't just building a children's, you know, academic and social development, it was also an advance probably saving a whole bunch of marriages and, you know, friendships and, and also be a bunch of workplaces that would appreciate, you know, what they'd learned how to do. It's also the foundation for democracy she was building on and she wasn't thinking about that at the time, but that's what she was doing. And, you know, so that's why the teachers who are co authors on my latest book, then engaging literate minds. They're all, you know, teacher researchers. And they do the same sort of thing. They turn kids attention to the language they use in in social problem solving. I could give an example another example from one of their classrooms like Laurie McCarthy's first and second grade multi age classroom I was there, beginning of the school year and writing workshop time. And, you know, Laurie follows the work of other teacher researchers like Katie wood Ray, Lisa Cleveland and company that, you know, that she, she reads books with the kids talking about the authors and illustrators who made them as ordinary people with intentions and strategies. And then she invites the kids to make their own books or kids love to make stuff. So they take it up with enthusiasm. So the children are all busy making books, doing research for their books, and so forth. And a second grader Aiden, he's busy making a book and I interrupted him to ask him about it. He turned back to the first page of the opening of the book, and which was about pizzas. And then the second page opening, which is about swords. And then the third page opening was about emeralds. You know, I asked him, What's the title of this book? And that's when he turned to the front cover. And, you know, laughing hysterically, he read the absolutely random book, you know, now, of course, he knows books should be thematic. It's the deliberate violation of that rule that makes it funny, you know, and I think it's worth asking what makes that kind of engagement possible or not? Because it's no question that, you know, engaged, happy children are better learners, and they lead to Happy Teachers, you know, who doesn't want that? You know, so. And this was a kid who in first grade when he entered Laurie's classroom, he just wouldn't write. You know, he just wouldn't be part have that whole business for the first two weeks. And then about three weeks later, he wouldn't go out to recess until he'd finished writing down the stuff he had to record before. So he wouldn't forget what he was going to put in his book. You know, so you got to think what makes that possible? You know, I think it's, you know, the that absolutely random book is unlikely to happen when children are all required to write about the same thing, or in the same genre. I'm not even sure what genre the absolutely random book is. You know, in Lori's class, they do study genres. And the children are constantly looking for structures, patterns and relationships, that they're invited, not required to write in the genre they're studying. When children are all writing about and researching their own interests, the work that's meaningful, they have a sense of autonomy. They're also interesting to each other, because they're each bringing something different to the community. And they gain a sense of meaningfulness, autonomy, competence, and belonging, all of which a human needs. When those needs are being met, they not only learn more, but that, you know, we don't have to worry about their well being, you know, they're they feel secure. So if the children were all writing about the same topic, the only interesting thing would be who's better at it. And that would affect peer relationships by creating social and intellectual hierarchies. You know, children, lower on the hierarchy won't experience a sense of competence, or autonomy, or relatedness or meaningfulness. You know, one of life's of Donnelly's cartoons, and a recent New Yorker shows why that's a problem. You know, it's, it shows a kindergartener coming home from her first day at school with a, you know, heavy backpack and looking dejected. And the mother says, It was your first day, why not give it another 12 years, you know, and another 12 years of that, you know, of not being happy, not being engaged, is, you know, a health risk, I guess, you know, those would be key things that, that have made me think about, you know, what's important here in school, and, and, and link those two, you know, I've spent a bunch of time linking those to research and child development, social psychology, and so on, and so forth.

Lindsay Persohn: 12:32

There are several things you say, Peter, that that mean, an awful lot to me, I actually used to teach kindergarten. And one thing I would say, when we would be, you know, handed a dull, lifeless curriculum, and, you know, we're asked to do this with fidelity, or, you know, whatever the buzzword was, said, You know, if kids leave kindergarten hating school, they've got a long road ahead of them. And we know they're not going to make it to to, you know, to graduation, if they spend 12, or 13 years of their life, really disenchanted with what they're doing day to day. I think that's such an important idea that, that there can be happiness at school. And really there should be for the sake of everyone involved. And as you said, it leads to happier societies as well. Kids are learning in an authentic and meaningful way.

Peter Johnston: 13:28

Well, with with scripted curricula, as you're talking about it, teachers can't be engaged either. And they can't be responsive to the kids. So it's not it's not good for, for anybody. Yeah, I mean, it's teaching and learning are absolutely relational. And as soon as you put a script between teacher and student, the relationship has gone out the window.

Lindsay Persohn: 13:57

The other point you mentioned that I want to pick back up on is this idea that words matter. I've spent at least the last several years thinking about how much words matter and how much they impact the way we think the way we feel, the way we act. And I think this idea of of you know, that words really matter in classrooms, and particularly the the way you describe the teacher responding to one student's sort of seemingly errant comment during a conversation by saying, Hmm, you know, I hadn't thought of it that way. This idea of valuing what kids have to say, and treating them as autonomous beings, that I think also can get lost in translation whenever whenever we don't approach the classroom in that dynamic, social kind of way. And I just think that that's such an important point that I wanted to kind of underline in what you said there that that words do matter in the way we interact with our students. They either leave thinking, Wow, I did something right. And I know how to how to continue thinking about that, or how to continue working on that. Or like you said, when everyone's doing the same thing, the conversation turns more to who's better at it. And that that doesn't ultimately serve kids well, because in the end learnings, not a race to be done or finished first or finished best. But really, it's a journey for all of us.

Peter Johnston: 15:24

I think it's also the case that I mean, it goes beyond that it because just being good affects a person in in ways that are important. In our recent book, I unpack a conversation amongst kids about a particular book. And one of the things that the kids are doing is, is saying things like, you know, I didn't think about that until you said that, they actually are interested in what each other has to say. And that changes a person. I mean, it changes who they think they are, it changes them and in what and who they think they are, changes, how they talk with each other, you know, so it's this being heard, actually makes a real difference. That's why one of the things that we do is putting some of those things together is like right at the lake Laurie, I just gave an example from Laurie McCarthy's classrooms. So Laurie will get the kids busy doing something, say working on a math problem and pairs, you know, together, and she'll be going around listening to how they're working on on the problem. But then she's also listening to how they're working together. And the strategies that they're using both to solve the math, but also to, to, to work together, you know, and she'll catch them doing something. Explain to them the strategy she just saw them using, because they don't know that they're being strategic. I mean, they just doing it, because they're busy doing it, you know? So she explains it says why it's important. And then she says, you know, the other kids might want to know about that, would you like to teach them about that, and then she makes space for them, you know, so that they teach the other kids, they need a little help, you know, sometimes these the first and second graders, pretty soon they all understand themselves to be teachers, but they've been heard they they are people who generate knowledge. That's how they see themselves, you know? So I mean, it just makes a huge difference. I mean, gosh, was it last fall or that fall? I think, maybe last fall, that, no, it must be in the fall before the kids were lining up. At the end of the first day, and Lori's classroom lining up for the bus, you know, and one of the kids that first graders because this first and second graders, one of the first graders said, you know, it's the first day and I already taught the class something. And one of the second graders said, I told you like this class, what's not to like, you know, so, yeah, I mean, it matters, it matters to have a sense that you, you know that you're have something to say have something important because you're being heard, you know, so.

Lindsay Persohn: 18:20

And I think kids feeling that value in the world is just so powerful. It's neat to hear that exchange between a second grader and a kindergartener saying I knew you'd like it, you know, that, what a powerful way to show kids how they can can be in the world that they do contribute in some really unique ways. Yeah. So Peter, what would you like teachers to know? Or I should say, what else? Would you like teachers to know about your research?

Peter Johnston: 18:52

Well, I, I've sort of talked a little bit about the foundation of my research, you know, that I'm really what I spend my time doing is really ennobling. what teachers do, you know, reflecting back to them the full importance of their work in a way. And it's, and I talk a lot about the language that we use and how that matters. I mean, one thing, for example, is noticing getting kids to notice stuff. So at the beginning of the year, we tell them, you know, you're all teachers here, and then we help them see themselves as teachers. And that we also say, We're all noticer here, you're going to notice stuff, and you're going to show it to me and I'm going to notice stuff, I'm going to show it to you, and because that's how we learn stuff, you know, so then kids notice stuff, I think left to notice stuff, you know, they just love it. And so as soon as I noticed something, you you build like a, you know, a nano lesson around that. And you know, capitalize on it, and you refer back to it. I'll remember what we learned from Do you know? And when they notice something, they're actually taking control of the instructional conversation? Because it's about their interests, not about the teacher delivering. So that's a small language lesson that puts them in control more in control of their learning. We turn kids attention to the process, how did you do that? How could you do that? You know, and we show them how those processes are causal. So we say, you know, I noticed when you use this, you know, strategy that happened, you know, so we help them make those causal connections. So they become strategic, and then has a whole bunch of, you know, we, we do the same thing, talking about authors and illustrators making decisions about how to do things, and making a direct connection to the decisions kids make as authors and illustrators. And that sort of talk has a bunch of side benefits, you know, it helps build a growth mindset. It builds children's social imaginations, that's, you know, their ability to imagine themselves into other people's heads, you know, thoughts and feelings. And that is a hub of social and emotional and intellectual development. It's also why we, you know, when we're discussing books with kids, we use language that invokes the use of mental verbs and mental state language, you know, how does that feel? What is she thinking? Is she worried? How can you tell, you know, oh, show me what, show me what angry feels like, you know, show me with your face, you know, so we want them to be able to think about what's going on in other people's heads, and recognize that on their faces, because that's going to change their social relationships, it's going to change their self regulation, they come to understand their own feelings, and other people's feelings, through the language that we embed in those conversations, we help them actually come to actually expand their range of thinking about emotions, and so forth. And that leads to self regulation, you know, the language comes up too easily in children's books, you know, and, like, you know, we invite kids to consider, you know, say what elephant and piggy are thinking and feeling, you know, but also why my Willems chose to do this, or is that what he was thinking, you know, you know, in a stronger social imagination, affects everything from general and intimate friendships to, to pro social behaviors, self regulation, you know, and, and children, you know, learn to understand and manage their own emotions through that language. So it's, it's really important, you know, and kids who have a stronger social imagination, you know, have more positive social skills, they cooperate better, they're more pro social, they have, you know, bigger social networks and healthier friendships. I mean, I could go on and on. I mean, it's a, it's a big, it's a big deal. I think I mentioned building a growth mindset Well, aside from attention to processes and decision making, that requires normalizing problems and errors, you know, as indicators of learning, and challenge, and not inbate ability, you know, so, again, and that's in the ways we talk about those things. And I'd also say engagement matters. You know, if kids are not engaged, teacher language is going to tend toward the negative and controlling. We get kids engaged and appropriate language tends to follow. You know, engagement is probably the only way to ensure learning is equitable, because when kids are engaged, they're fully invested. And they learn as fast as they're capable, whatever their capabilities are, when they're not engaged. They tend to show us the left satisfactory sides. And we often assume they're not very capable, you know, and then we treat them as such, you know, making them even less engaged, and they live down to our expectations. I don't think there's any equitable education without engagement. So, you know, I mean, this stuff comes out of the, I mean, Gay Ivey and I studied eighth graders whose teachers decided to focus on engagement. They offered their classes 150 to 200 young adult books that were likely to be personally meaningful to them. But no, no more than three copies of any titles, sometimes only a single title, and no strings attached, no book reports or whatever. You know, they introduced the books at the beginning of the year by reading or having previous students read brief, juicy bits, and inviting the kids to sign up for books they found interesting. And also they stopped asking comprehension questions, because if you want to kill engagement, you just asked comprehension questions, you know, so instead, they they just use open prompts like catch me up or What are you thinking, and they wove instruction into the conversations around a read aloud book, which they chose as something that kids were likely to be, you know, find engaging. But if the kids were fully engaged in the book that they are into, when the read aloud was going on, they didn't have to attend to it. So, you know, anyway. And they encouraged book talk, you know, talk, kids talking about books. And also they distributed like, the other teacher, they distributed teaching within the community. So like if one kid struggling with a book that pull over another kid whose that was his favorite book, to give some support there. And of course, a kid who's really liked the book has an interest in, you know, getting another person to talk to you about that book. So I mean, in the least interesting outcome of this was that the students became more strategic in their reading, and they pass the state test, more of them pass the state test than before. And that's with less obvious teaching. You know, the, I think what much more importantly, there was a cascade of other effects on the students, social emotional and moral development and their self regulation. You know, they were larger and stronger friendship networks develop a stronger sense of trust, a real sense of community, all of which they remembered fondly. And in Technicolor, two, and three years later, when we interviewed them again, I mean, they could tell you, who they were talking to where they were about which book, you know, because and everything in between, after after, that was like, you know, pale. You know, the sheer volume of reading was enormous. mean, in our interviews, at the end of the first year, we asked, I think 71 students about, that's about a third of the class, whether they had read anything that year that they either couldn't stop thinking about, or had to talk to somebody about that, we figured out an engaging book, you know, and they named 71, kids names, about 350 books, including about 150 distinct titles, I mean, 150 distinct titles, you know, you have to think what on Earth makes it think makes us think it's a good idea to have all students read the same damn book at the same time. I mean, in fact, although they were all reading different books, they also read the same books, because as soon as one finished a compelling book, they had to talk to somebody about it. So they often had to persuade someone to read it, which they did with a vengeance. I mean, they were, you know, they forced, you know, others to read these books. Because the alternative was to find somebody who already read it, you know, so they were constantly on the lookout for what others were reading, you know, and if another kid was reading a book they loved, you know, they'd start a conversation even with kids that they would never otherwise talk to. So the, the social cliques broke down. And, you know, students actually found different perspectives exciting. Because each is bringing something different to the conversation, they found each other interesting, and, and finding each other interesting, they also found each other much smarter. I mean, they talked about how the other kids were so much smarter than they thought, you know, and they treated each other like that. So, you know, here again, because they're fully engaged with the books, you know, they actually took up residence in the characters heads. And they struggled with the, you know, moral, relational and personal dilemmas, the characters struggled with all of which, you know, expanded their ability to imagine the thoughts and feelings of others with all the benefits that follow. You know, and research shows us that this happens with adults too. But it wasn't just that they were reading books they found fully engaging it was because having read them, they had to talk to somebody about them. And they talked about what's going on in the character's head, and in their own heads, their thoughts and feelings, you know, in the process, they became more open minded, less judgmental, but also prepared to call out problem behavior like bullying. You know, they had more friendships, more close friendships, and they felt a greater sense of trust. You know, unsurprisingly, they were also happier. I mean, you know, and how difficult is that? You know, I mean, it's not that all of that comes as an add on to reconstruction, all that is just changing a few elements. But it turns out, changing those few elements is a radical change. You know, it changes what kids think they're doing, who they think they are, who they think their peers are, and so forth. And that changes the way they talk to each other. And it's a cycle, you know.

Lindsay Persohn: 29:59

I get a little All excited just hearing you describe these classrooms scenarios,

Peter Johnston: 30:03

sorry to rabbit on about because I just, I just, you know I, I mean, this is I was joining with Gay Ivey and work that that she was doing and bringing the work that I had been doing to bear on it. And, you know, I knew in theory these things should happen. But when you actually hear these kids saying some of the things that they're saying, it's like, why have we bothered even to do all this? You know, other research, if we just asked the kids in the first place, you know, they would have told us, but you know, what, whatever? Well, if that's,

Lindsay Persohn: 30:40

you know, that that is something that I think teachers can do in their own classrooms. Today, tomorrow, you know, talk to kids see what they're thinking about, see, see how they feel, see what they're interested in. And when we begin to, I think, shift our thinking in that direction. You know, we do end up with happier classrooms, happier schools, and, and ultimately a more productive and happier society in the long run. Yeah, you, you talk a lot about engagement. And you've given us some really wonderful examples of what engagement looks like. But I know I often teach pre service teachers, undergraduates who are beginning to spend a little bit of time in classrooms. And of course, they come to our college classrooms with a lot of ideas about what school is based on their own schooling experience. And engagement is a concept I feel like a lot of my students have some trouble with, they don't exactly know how to get there. And and I believe it is largely due to some of their prior experiences in school, and they just may not see another way. Right? They may not see another way to be inside of a classroom space. So what what advice could you give maybe a young teacher or a soon to be teacher or even an experienced teacher who wants to create a bit more of an engaging environment? What What can that look like?

Peter Johnston: 32:09

Well, the difficult thing there is that so many administrators have set up these scripted programs, and so on, which actually make it impossible for teachers to do things that would would get the kids engaged. I mean, we have essentially scripted writing lessons and, and so forth, we have, you know, scripted reading lessons. The examples I've given you are ones in which children have a sense of autonomy, and meaningfulness, doing things that are meaningful to them. Those two things are really quite critical. There are some other properties that are important, but you'll notice that I mean, the two examples I I've referred to really are like Laurie McCarthy's classroom where the kids are actually busy making books. They're all busy making their own books. That gets them engaged. And it gets them talking with each other in in useful ways. And I, I mean, and you can script that away in a second. The same with the with the eighth grade kids, I mean, eighth grade kids, I mean, nationally, you know, eighth graders in, in the US are some of the least engaged in the civilized world, you know, and eighth grade is kind of the bottom of the barrel for that, you know, and here are these kids, you know, with a modest change, and then you get administrators who come along and say, you know, you'd have to stop doing this, which, because they have a sense that in order to have things working, people have to be things have to be under control, and in the, in the but if teachers spend their time controlling, then doing all the work, and the kids are not to, you know, people will, every single administrator will say, you know, we're going to build lifelong learners. But, you know, how do you get lifelong learners? Well, you have to get them to initiate learning. But if all learning is being initiated by the teacher, then you're actually we're back to the you know, but while you're a kid, I want you to be passive, pliable and obedient. You know, so I It's hard for teachers, it's really hard because I know a lot of teachers who find themselves in ethical dilemmas. They know what they could do here to get kids engaged and so forth. But they're being required to do things that go absolutely against that. And I just don't know how to help on that. I honestly, I find it a it's a real problem. Yeah,

Lindsay Persohn: 35:29

I think those those tensions are really difficult to navigate, you know, the the difference between what you know, to be good practice and what you're being asked to

Peter Johnston: 35:37

And that autonomy is, I mean, that do. And when those don't align, I think that is a, that is a autonomy, and meaningfulness are to human needs. I mean, and difficult course to navigate, I think, particularly for new teachers, but also for veteran teachers. And, you know, maybe teachers are human after all, you know, so just like the kids, it takes a different kind of school administrator, to really And ah, I mean, you know, a bunch of my work has been really get to that point where teachers obviously have to have some autonomy and have to, to be able to embed real meaningful work in kind of showing teachers where the high leverage is, but, but their classrooms in order for students to reach that point. So also showing, you know, what's possible. And, and how important yeah, I think this is a another case of, you know, when when that work is, because of that, because of the impact on teachers can't do it, we shouldn't expect students to, children's development and so forth. You know, so I think you know, if teachers aren't engaged, we shouldn't expect students to be engaged. that's important, but, you know, teachers, schools do, like professional development, like, they take a professional development and sort of put it on the teachers, and just like doing that in a classroom, it's not going to be appropriate for a whole bunch of the teachers in that place. You know, so the teachers that, that I like, the, the teachers that I worked with, for the the new book, there, they realize that you can't just wait around for professional development, you've got to design your own, you know, so they built their own little intellectual community to, you know, share and solve problems, learn what's possible, you know, they would share readings that they found they, you know, I realized that when the school system delivers professional development, it just might not be perfect. Or it might be perfect with some but not completely, or irrelevant for others, you know, so they just took control of it, and they were doing that for 10 years, but there's also an intellectual support community, too, it's really hard teaching alone, you know, you you really need that, that, that support community. You know, I mean, just like, just like for kids, I mean, human beings are social animals. You know, I mean, our life form is such that if, you know, we're deprived of social interaction, we can literally wither and die young children, you know, you know, learning is fundamentally social to, you know, self, the students unable to successfully recruit assistance or jointly participate in activities, they're learning is going to suffer. You know, I mean, Social Development's the foundation for intellectual, emotional, physical, you know, but same as teachers, you know, they have to have their social support network, their intellectual support network, and so forth. So, and they have to grab that themselves, because nobody's going to provide it for them. You know,

Lindsay Persohn: 39:17

right. And I think, you know, I've spoken to plenty of teachers who feel as though they've weathered a bit through through their careers because of that lack of an authentic kind of experience of the social learning that that can happen in professional spaces. But but often doesn't. Yeah, yeah. So Peter, given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?

Peter Johnston: 39:47

Well, basically what I just said, I think, I mean, you know, we have to, we we can't just be interested in documenting what children need to learn, you know? We have to consider what helps children take control of their learning, what makes instruction more equitable, you know, what serves children's happiness, and well being, you know, what serves not just their academic development, but also their social and emotional development. And none of that needs to be an add on, you know, I mean, it's just changing some of those things. Now, I said, you know, it's hard for teachers, because they're often put in positions in which, you know, it's very difficult to do that. And then it becomes looking, particularly the more seasoned teachers looking for the wiggle wiggle room in the in, in things, you know, where you can do this, where you can do that. And along the way, if you can show using some of that wiggle room, to administrators, and so forth, look what happened when I did this, you know, maybe you can get some, you know, because it's all about building trust, really, in order to get that base, like people I mentioned, Laurie, McCarthy, the, you know, if the school, the school district might decide to do a bunch of different things, but Laurie's not going to do some of those things is my guess. I mean, she's going to do the things that she knows. But if an administrator says for her to stop it, they would have to be nuts. Because not only do the kids show well on, you know, on academic measures, but I think that parents would be up in arms as well. Because they recognize that the kids are not just growing academically, they recognize that the kids are different when they come home. You know, and I think if parents, I mean, that's one of the things with the eighth grade kids, I kind of regret that we didn't, you know, in our beginning and ending interviews so that we didn't videotape those interviews, because I can tell you, Okay, here's an example, the first time Gay took me into one of those classrooms, the kids were coming in from the previous period, they're coming into their English language arts classroom, and one of the girls was sitting there. I mean, they were in the little group tables, and she was sitting there, she had her book, on the table beside her there, and Gay and I was sitting nearby and Gay and that the girl was sitting there with a blank kind of disengaged face, just you know, in gay leanded in forward and said, where are you in? You know, are you reading? Where are you in that, and the girl tend to face her, and in probably 20 degrees of arc, her face changed entirely, because she knew she was going to have a conversation about this thing that mattered to her, you know, and just to capture those two faces, and show them to parents and say, which do you want for your kid? I mean, you know, maybe we'd have more more parents on board. If we did that, you know,

Lindsay Persohn: 43:12

I think that's a powerful image comes to mind for me when you describe that, just that that moment when a student realizes that they get to say something that's meaningful to them, not just talk about what the teacher wants to talk about, and it does. It changes everything. Really? Yeah, it does sound it really does. Well, Peter, thank you so much for your time today. And thank you for your contributions to the field of education.

Peter Johnston: 43:39

Thanks for having me. Thanks for doing this.

Lindsay Persohn: 43:43

Dr. Peter Johnston is known for his work exploring relationships among classroom talk, engagement and children's social, emotional and literate development. Peter was an elementary classroom teacher in New Zealand before moving to the US to pursue his graduate studies. He has published over 80 scholarly articles and 13 books, some in multiple languages. Two of his most popular books, opening minds using language to change lives and choice words how our language affects children's learning, have been widely circulated and highly influential in classrooms. recognition for his work includes the Albert J. Harris award from the International Literacy association for contributions to the understanding of reading disability, and the State University of New York Chancellor's Award for Excellence in Research. His article voices we want to hear and voices we don't with John Nichols received the learned article Achievement Award from the educational Press Association. Most recently, the literacy Research Association honored him with the Oscar Kazi Award for Outstanding Contributions to reading research, and the P David Pearson scholarly influence award, citing his book choice words, as Having demonstrably and positively influenced literacy teaching in classrooms and districts nationally. He was inducted into the reading Hall of Fame in 2005. His most recent book co authored with six classroom teachers is engaging literate minds developing children's social, emotional and intellectual lives. kindergarten through third grade. Peter is professor emeritus in the literacy Teaching and Learning Department at the University of Albany, State University of New York. For the good of all students, good research should inform good practice and vice versa. listeners are invited to respond to our guests. Learn more about our guests research, and suggest a topic for an upcoming episode through this podcast website at classroom caffeine.com. If you've learned something today, or just enjoyed listening, please subscribe to this podcast. I raised my mug to you teachers. Thanks for joining me