A Conversation with Pamela Mason

Dr. Pamela Mason is known for her work studying the role of culturally sustaining pedagogy in promoting literacy achievement, the interaction of text complexity and background knowledge, qualitative and quantitative literacy assessment, and the efficacy of the roles of Reading Specialists and Literacy Coaches. Dr. Mason collaborates with colleagues nationally and globally on preparing reading specialist teachers and literacy coaches, developing the capacity of school leaders as literacy advocates, and evaluating school-wide literacy programs. Dr. Pamela A. Mason is a senior lecturer on education, a Co-Chair of the Literacy and Languages concentration, and director of the Jeanne Chall Reading Lab at the Harvard Graduate School of Education.

To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2023, Oct 10). A conversation with Pamela Mason (Season 4, No. 4) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/6ABE-99B5-0CD4-14EA-290B-K

Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.

Transcript

Lindsay Persohn: 0:10

Education research has a problem. The work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom caffeine is here to help. In each episode, I talk with the top education researcher or expert educator about what they have learned from their research and experiences. In this episode, Dr. Pamela Mason talks to us about poetry in the science of reading, empowering teachers learner discovery and agency and relationships and connections. Dr. Mason is known for her work studying the role of culturally sustaining pedagogy and promoting literacy achievement, the interaction of text complexity and background knowledge, qualitative and quantitative literacy assessment, and the efficacy of the roles of reading specialists and literacy coaches. Dr. Mason collaborates with colleagues nationally and globally on preparing reading specialist teachers and literacy coaches, developing the capacity of school leaders as literacy advocates, and evaluating school wide literacy programs. Dr. Pamela A. Mason is a senior lecturer on education, and a co chair of the literacy and languages concentration, and the director of the gene Shaw reading lab at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. For more information about our guest, stay tuned to the end of this episode. So pour a cup of your favorite drink. And join me your host, Lindsay Persohn. For classroom caffeine research to energize your teaching practice. Pamela, thank you for joining me. Welcome to the show.

Pamela Mason: 1:57

Thank you, Lindsay. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

Lindsay Persohn: 2:00

So from your own experiences and education, will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now,

Pamela Mason: 2:08

one or two moments is a hard ask, but I will try to comply

Lindsay Persohn: 2:14

it is feel free to tell us about as many moments as you'd like.

Pamela Mason: 2:18

Right? I think that in in looking at the big picture, just the power of being included for learners and really having an opportunity to respond to text across modalities. We're talking a lot about multimodal multi literacies now, and people think multi literacies is about just technology. But it really is going back to the language arts of reading, writing, listening, speaking. And now we're into the technology and the viewing, and I guess, the texting and every other way that we are using to communicate with each other. So I think that that is top of mind right now, as well as just the power of discovery. Discovering literacy is so important to learners. I remember when I was supervising one of my reading specialist interns, and she was working with a learner and doing word sorts and the young person was seeing patterns and it just burst out with Why didn't anybody tell me this before. And I think we have the curse of knowledge that we are skilled readers. And so there's a lot about the reading process that we've forgotten, it would be like having us teach an infant or young, you know, a toddler how to blow their nose, I mean, you know, we just kind of like put the Kleenex there and it happens, but there is actually a process and so it is hard. So really giving learners the scaffolding to discover discover language, language patterns, their structures, as well as giving them the skills and the agency to to to move forward without us you know, to apply this knowledge to other texts and to enjoy those texts. So I think that those are the things that you know, are top of mind right now, for me, as we you know, enter in this era of looking at, you know, early literacy and early literacy in the United States and I'm working globally and looking at early literacy especially in the global south and the blunt language structures that are important to understand in order to unlock the code. You know, we we all most most of us live and speak and read and write and listen in code based languages we have the logo graphic languages, which are different, but in in in these other languages. The code is important as a key to unlocking meaning, meaning of the text, meaning between the text and the reader, meaning between the text the reader and other readers in terms of a community of readers and writers and thinkers. So I think that that's really important to me right now.

Lindsay Persohn: 5:20

Something in particular that you said, Pamela, it kind of brings me back to this moment in education. Right. Now, you mentioned that not only, of course, is it important for learners to understand patterns and language and to have that ability to discover but then the agency to use it, in my view, I think that's where the conversation has gotten lost a bit, particularly around concepts like the science of reading, because it seems as though we're giving learners the message that I'm going to spoon feed you information. And unless I spoon feed it to you, I don't want you to do anything with this knowledge. But really, when we add discovery and agency to that equation, I think our students, they will take it so much further than if we were to just limit them to the skills we're teaching.

Pamela Mason: 6:05

I agree, Lindsay, I agree, I think of a young person. Again, I'm supervising their reading specialist in turn, and he wrote the word. Again, I'm from Massachusetts, and we have a thing about ours. So I have to like preface give the listeners that context. So he wrote the word, p, r, k, e. And when asked what the word was, he said, he looked at me like yours from Harvard lady Park, because the E makes the R say its name. And I did I mean, just trying to hold in my laughter, my joy, he was given a rule, he applied the rule. When we say pa, you don't hear an A you all hear are and the sound at the end. And so he had this rule. And he was applying the rule to the wrong letter.

Lindsay Persohn: 7:05

That's right, keeping it within those boundaries he was given right, rather than taking in, perhaps signs he'd seen right? When you enter something like a park, right? So yeah, putting those pieces together, it's just it's so important for learners. It's a great story.

Pamela Mason: 7:21

So they say a child shall lead us.

Lindsay Persohn: 7:23

That's right. But you know, it is, in my mind, it's those moments that help us as educators to uncover the misconceptions. And then to think about how we teach that concept differently, or how we potentially do provide caveats or, you know, other other ways of seeing this or, you know, applying it to what we notice in our environment and those kinds of things. And if we're so locked in if we're lockstep in teaching the rules of the English language, I think we can miss the forest for the trees to extend the park metaphor.

Pamela Mason: 7:53

Yes, definitely.

Lindsay Persohn: 7:57

So Pamela, what do you want listeners to know about your work?

Pamela Mason: 8:01

My work is really around empowering teachers. And I believe that, you know, good teaching, good first, teaching is so essential. And I want to empower teachers to do two things to have an effective and motivating literacy instruction. So to understand what that means what that is, and this literacy instruction to all learners, but also about seeing and valuing their learners so that the learners feel connected to the enterprise of school and learning, which means including their background, their languages, because all of us even if we think we only speak English we speak Englishes we don't speak the same English, I hope to our elders, as we do to our youngers, or in different contexts we speak our Englishes differently, whether we're in a knitting circle, or a bowling league or skydiving, you know, we have different context for the language that we use, that's appropriate. And that is, again ties into their interests. And so what what makes these these learners click what what engages them? What do they want to learn about? What do they want to read about? I know that when I was an elementary principal, we looked at our intermediate data driven instruction. We looked at our state tests, as we were to do, and I said, Wait a minute, we did really poorly with poetry. And in Massachusetts, there was this passage at that particular year, where the students were given a poem and an informational article and asked to compare them. And my teachers looked at me and said, the test is given in March. April is Poetry Month. We hadn't taught poetry yet. So our data was saying something about our learners, which actually was saying more about our curriculum and our teaching. And it was like, you know, one of those, oh, my goodness, you know, duh moments. And so we made a commitment that we would take your poetry throughout the year, and then celebrate it maybe in a more intense way, in April. But, you know, like, not just confined poetry to April,

Lindsay Persohn: 10:32

you know, I think that those kinds of things happen more often, and maybe in less obvious ways, all the time in schools, we just haven't gotten there yet. You know, the test calls for us to do X, Y, Z. Well, that's not how our curriculum is aligned, or that's not what our kids need. You know, that's a blatant example of how you can make those shifts in order to meet an artificial or an imposed deadline. So you know, it does help me to think a little bit differently about what data tells us right, and what we can actually glean from that.

Pamela Mason: 11:05

Yes. And I just, we, I think we all felt a little badly that our learners were being categorized in a way, it's not that they hadn't learned what we had taught, we hadn't taught. So they hadn't learned it.

Lindsay Persohn: 11:18

Right. Yeah, yeah, it's, like I said, it's a really obvious example, I think that can help us to see those types of potential implications of data a little bit differently. And to think about them differently.

Pamela Mason: 11:29

It had also, for me emphasizes the importance of analyzing the data, like digging deeper than just looking at the numbers, and looking at the items and looking at the standards and the skills that are tied to those standards. And, again, how and when they're being assessed.

Lindsay Persohn: 11:47

Yeah, that context is so very important. What else would you like listeners to know about your work?

Pamela Mason: 11:52

Well, I think that again, we kind of a segue into poetry, I think that poetry is kind of the perfect genre, and yet it is somewhat, you know, kind of segregated to one part of the year when, in fact, it really can address what is on top of mind for many teachers in terms of, you know, the science of reading and the emphasis on code, and what the code is, and English, but also, it really, it's about meaning as well, because, you know, we have all kinds of symbolism that we can use in poetry, poetry can be short and sweet, or long and sour, and, and everything in between. And it offers this kind of variety for our learners, especially our early literacy, learners to engage in meaningful language, looking at the code, looking at meaning and having some fun, some joy, some silliness, some laughter. And that is something that I want, you know, that is really kind of top of mind in terms of our of our work, you know, and it really made me kind of think, again, about teaching as a science as well as an art. And I think poetry allows the artfulness to come to for both for the teachers and for the learners. And I referred back to learn to read the great debate by Jeanne chall and my mentor, and just want to share a little bit of a long quote, but kind of make a segue into how it might relate to the use of poetry in classrooms. And she stated the beginning code emphasis will not cure all reading ills, it cannot guarantee that all children will learn to read easily, nor have the results of meaning Emphasis Program has been so disastrous, that all academic and emotional failures can be blamed on them as some proponents and publishers of new code emphasis programs claim. I reread this book all the time, and it was like, Oh, my goodness, she is sitting on our shoulders, watching what's going on right now. You know, and I also was amazed that you kind of put in that emotional piece because we are very much in tune with the social emotional learning of our students. And now also, hopefully, the social emotional well being of our teachers, because teachers who are hurting who are feeling overwhelmed who are feeling blamed, cannot be good at their craft or their or their art.

Lindsay Persohn: 14:40

When was that quote published?

Pamela Mason: 14:42

That quote was published in in 1967.

Lindsay Persohn: 14:48

And it could have been published today, it seems you know, so here we are again, and you know, a great debate another pendulum swing, which I know some of my mentors told me a bit about when I first started teaching, you know that we do what's right for kids, regardless of what the flavor of the day is. But you know, I think it does just remind me that we've been here before. Unfortunately, we'll probably be here again, in this sort of great debate around whether reading is a science or whether it is an art. And I think this idea of poetry is so impactful. Because as you were talking about teaching as a science and an art and poetry as a science and an art, it did really make me think about how poetic teaching is. Right? It's not, it's not easy. It's not always formulaic. Right. So I think there are lots of parallels there. But I think one thing I've noticed in years of working in teacher preparation, is that sometimes I think our pre service teachers don't have much experience with poetry, and therefore they are reluctant to try to teach with it because they don't necessarily understand it themselves. Have you had some of those same experiences?

Pamela Mason: 16:07

Most definitely. Lindsay, you know, short of Roses are red, violets are blue, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so do you can kind of kind of pick anything in the middle. I think people are very intimidated by poetry, you know, they think of Langston Hughes, they think of Shakespeare, but poetry, it's always poetic, but it can be just very rhyme oriented. So if you know if you're teaching word families, you know, you can use the ending rhymes, you know, a BB Baby A, B, that whatever, you know, kind of whatever rhyme pattern you can. And so we really are focusing on the letter sound relationships, but it's the music of the language, we're looking at the print, but poetry is meant to be said out loud. So you're thinking about the the rhythm of the of the language, as well as the mechanics of word families, and what rhymes and then we know when the learners can move forward to write these words, sound like they rhyme, but they don't look the same. So then we're building in again, more phonics, more code based investigation of what letter patterns make what sounds and is it? Is it boom? Or is it broom? And, you know, and then is it? You know, is it read or read? You know, I used to tell people that I love those kinds of things. Because, you know, it's, is it reading or reading or, you know, leading or, you know, letting you know, we the context matters. And so really helping students use poetry, which is also can be short, it's not necessarily text heavy. But it can also be meaningful, and powerful and symbolic and for fun, and so it's not, you know, it's doesn't overwhelm the early literacy learner.

Lindsay Persohn: 18:02

This, this really makes so much sense when you situate poetry among not just phonics. But you know, I feel like you've really talked across the five pillars of literacy, you know, that, right? That this is about phonological awareness. This is about phonics when we put it on paper, but it's also about fluency. When we read it, and we rehearse it, it gives meaning to repeated readings, right? It's not just read it read it five times, because I told you read it five times, so that you can read it fluently, right? Writing poetry, reading, poetry, all also relates to vocabulary, choosing the right word for the job at the right time that conveys the meaning, right? So it's also getting to comprehension too. I don't know that I've ever thought about poetry in this expansive sort of way that I think could help us to tie those concepts together in ways that are authentic and meaningful, but also address social, emotional kinds of aspects of a really complex thinking. So you've really got my wheels, turning about how I might be, how I might be able to incorporate poetry a little bit differently in the way that I teach. Of course, we talk about poetry and children's literature, but just like the month of April, it probably shouldn't be relegated to one genre of literature.

Pamela Mason: 19:24

No, definitely. I as you were asking about pre service teachers and with my master's students, I introduced them to Don Holloways, demonstrate, participate, practice perform model of dealing with poetry, and I've used it also when I was an elementary principal I've used it with with students. And again, another very poignant story was I love the poem, honey i love by Eloise Greenfield, and the bridge is the word and between each stanza, is the word and, and I was covering a fourth grade class and there was a young learner there who had learning issues and executive functioning issues and but had been fully included since kindergarten. And I gave each of the groups a stanza because we went through the demonstration. So we read the poem aloud together. And then we did participation. They heard me read it. Then they participated by reading Chorally. And then I gave each of four groups, a stanza and the and, and when he we were reading it together, Chorally really kind of latched on to the And. And each of the groups said, No, he needs to be in our group because we need him for the end, we need him. And he was like, walking three feet above the classroom floor because everybody needed the And, which was the bridge the cement between the stanzas Okay, I'm getting goosebumps. Now. It happened a long time ago, I called his mother I said, she said, He is the poster child for inclusion. So they, they really resonated with the And. And I've used this poem with my master's students. And they come up with all kinds of ways to act out. So again, multimodal, you know, act out the stanzas act out the action within the poem, I've done it with teachers, and one of the groups actually had a sign language translation of their stanza. So they really brought in a lot of different ways of presenting the same poem, and even just one stanza, and each group goes, Oh, we hadn't thought about doing that, what that way. And so it really is a fun and they really enjoy that activity a lot. And then we go back and I give them little word cards and say, okay, find a, you know, a word because I have a big display of this poem, you know, find, find this word in the poem, find a word that rhymes with this word. So we're doing our word study, along with just the poetry and the imagery, and the performance. And it really has been very impactful. Because we have, you know, the onsets and rimes you can bring in alliteration with beginning sounds, you know, the repetition and the patterns and always my favorite the onomatopoeia. You know, I love saying the word, we love doing the word and everybody likes to chug, chug, chug along.

Lindsay Persohn: 22:44

Yeah, it is so much fun. And the kind of intellectual engagement that you're describing, I think it reminds us of how much fun words can be, you know, whenever we get beyond just sort of reducing them to on sets and rhymes. But instead of applying that to something that is meaningful, not just in one context, or it's not just, you know, so often I think comprehension in schools is reduced to the right answer, right? And what what is the right answer anyway, you know, I think about those things fairly often, particularly when it comes to things like accelerated reader in some of those programs, where you're asking kids to identify meaning, but it doesn't really necessarily have anything to do with them, or the meaning they make. It's the meaning that, you know, a test writer has made of that. But with poetry, right, you can introduce new stanzas, and you can build off of each other and have that really rich conversation around will will it meant something different to me, or, Oh, I thought about this word, or this concept a little bit differently, and just the kind of intellectual engagement and also social engagement that comes with those kinds of conversations. I just, I don't know if you can beat that, you know, I don't know if you can top that with with anything else.

Pamela Mason: 23:55

I hope that your listeners will will reconsider poetry, you know, and not be intimidated by it. I know when I was in school, I always thought that the teacher had the right answer that there was a right answer in responding to poetry and, and sometimes it is taught that way. But I'm encouraging your listeners to think about, you know, divergent thinking, critical thinking, and you know, can we how does this these concepts as this imagery relate to you and your family? Thinking about again about Honey, I love Eloise Greenfield does do many of her poems are about family and friendships. And so I think our poems provide a nice entry point for most children, regardless of their ethnicity or their background, or their language and they can always talk about family and friendships, in their language and bring in things that rhyme in their language in their home language, their mother tongue and then see how it doesn't or does kind of translate into to English and do the concepts translate, because our words are not just, you know what they mean in the dictionary, they're they're denotation. There's all these connotations, these contexts. And, you know, when you use these words and the motions that they bring forward, and again, that's kind of going to the social emotional learning part that we've, we've known that was important for many, many decades. But with unfortunately, the pandemic, it's really kind of smacked us in the face, like, Okay, we can't get very far if we're not feeling safe, if we're not feeling protected. And I think that those are so important in our, in our classrooms, and providing poetry is a way of, of seeing and hearing and valuing our learners in very authentic ways.

Lindsay Persohn: 25:57

Well, so often, I think we try to do more in education by doing more, instead of doing things that are interconnected and working smarter at building these constructs, helping students understand concepts in a way that you're talking about. It's so interconnected. And I feel like this happens to me a lot on the show, but it seems so logical, like it was right there in front of us all along. But instead, we try to, uh, well, let's add this program, right, let's add this specific program for social emotional learning, let's add this program for phonics instruction. I know, as a classroom teacher, I always felt like, as those things are added, nothing's ever taken away. So you're just doing writing. So you're just doing more and more and more, instead of thinking about how we can focus on a couple of things, and do those really well, and identify the connections across those different subject areas or concepts that we're trying to teach. So you've really got me thinking very differently about how these ideas can fit in ways that don't feel like doing more, but instead feel like doing better?

Pamela Mason: 27:02

Yes, and I think there's, you know, and again, debunking the idea that poetry has to rhyme. So there are two templates that I've used that, and others have shared with me, you know, kind of the I am poems, and so there's a little bit of a scaffolding of, you know, I am and what you like, and so it's a nice way for for students to share who they are as little or as much as they feel comfortable. And for teachers to learn who their students are. And Lindsey, they're writing,

Lindsay Persohn: 27:36

right? Oh, by the way, they're writing

Pamela Mason: 27:38

They are writing, and they're writing about themselves. And so we're learning about them. But if you want to look at their writing, you know, how are they representing sounds and symbols? What do they know about the code, how is that demonstrated in their writing and what words they choose to use. And then there's another template is I am from, so it really talks about, you know, who they are, and where they feel they're from, and that really broadens the classroom to bring in all of the students backgrounds, be they you know, just recent immigrants, or second or third generation, but they still may have connections through elders to other places, and where are those other places? What emotions are evoked by thinking about or returning to those other places,

Lindsay Persohn: 28:29

that also gives us opportunities to identify when maybe students don't feel solidly anchored to a place or a people or a culture, because I think that's just important to know, also, you know, if you do have someone who maybe doesn't know a whole lot about their family, or is living in a foster care situation, or something like that, where you know, where they're from, might tell us something very different. And so that idea of personalizing the writing, the learning the thinking, I just think it can take us so far. But without feeling like we're adding a lot to our to do list. It's like I said, it's just, it just all seems to make so much sense to me.

Pamela Mason: 29:06

And also, it's not, it doesn't feel as intrusive, you know, for a teacher, right? Tell me about yourself. No, we're writing poems and you know it, it creates a little bit of a distance. It's not a confrontation about telling me everything I need to know about you. But more, here's an opportunity for you to share what you want us to know about you. Right?

Lindsay Persohn: 29:31

No, I love that. I think that's, it's just such a smart way to work at so many things at once. So you've mentioned a couple of starts to poetry that you have and that really caused me to think Do you have any resources that you might want to point listeners to particularly if we are thinking about teachers or pre service teachers, even experienced teachers who don't feel like they have a whole lot of their own experience with poetry? Do you have any anything you can point us to?

Pamela Mason: 29:59

Well, I Georgia heard awakening the heart. It's an oldie but goodie, I think that she has kind of revised it a several times. But she talks about six areas of using poetry that she has and the music and the meaning in her poetry toolbox. And so she also has ideas for poems in your pocket, and children writing short poems to each other as a morning greeting, so I would definitely suggest awakening the heart, and then just reading poems, in their in there everywhere that personification multiple word meanings, their song lyrics, again, some some songs you can't bring to school, I understand that. But, you know, there are songs and their little rhymes their jump rope chants that the children may use that's poetry.

Lindsay Persohn: 30:58

Right, that

Pamela Mason: 30:59

poetry like, oh, it just seems so kind of like out there. But there is musical language around us all the time. So I would, I would say that, again, finding some poem poetry that that, you know, poetry books, anthology, consulting with your school librarian, hopefully you have one, they are your friend. And you know, there's also a lot of poetry around informational text, you know how things work, and historical events. Paul Fleischmanns, joyful noise is a book of poems about bugs, insects, but talks about their habitats, their eating patterns, you get a lot of information about, you know, when you're reading these poems about insects, and their poems for two voices. So you have to kind of share and the whole burden isn't on one reader, you have to cooperate, and you get that rhythm and that interchange. And as you mentioned, the fluency and you get to practice it, and you get to laugh and have fun when you kind of mess up and read somebody else's line. Because you know, the world, the world is not going to stop stealing, it's not going to fall to the floor, you'll be fine.

Lindsay Persohn: 32:18

Right? Right, there is a YouTube video of two high school girls who are performing joyful noise. And it's something that I've shared with my children's literature course, they act it out, they do the movements. It's absolutely incredible to see, you know, and I think that also speaks to how useful poetry can be across age levels, grade levels, right, because we would typically think of the book joyful noise as, you know, maybe something for elementary age students. But as you mentioned, the the length of the text doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the depth of the meaning. And so, you know, I think that that that is also really important reminder is that sometimes we might look at a text and think of it in one way, but it can be interpreted in multiple ways and in really rich kinds of ways as these girls have done with joyful noise in what I found to be an extremely entertaining and lively video. So I may see if I can find the link to that and post it with this conversation because it's just so good.

Pamela Mason: 33:18

Yeah. I am not familiar with it. I do that there are a couple of great videos on YouTube of young people in classrooms, reciting Honey, I love and it just always kind of brings me to tears and it's it's fun, right? It's fun.

Lindsay Persohn: 33:36

I think these are the kinds of resources that can potentially help us to kind of break the ice if we're feeling like we don't really know where to go with poetry or how to incorporate it there are so many resources out there that we can go to to see how other educators how other teachers how other young people are using poetry in their lives in ways that we may have never considered before.

Pamela Mason: 33:58

Yeah, they're they're listening to spoken word. They're listening to songs and you know, we could investigate them or get the kids bop version. And talk about you know, the symbolism that's, that's inherent in those songs. I just read listened to to India Arie's, strength, courage and wisdom. And there's just a lot of alliteration and repetition, as well as rhyming patterns within that one song. You know, kind of going to date myself give me Holland Dozier in Holland and give me some of those Motown you know, ain't too proud to beg. And there are lots of rhymes and stuff all in there. And but it's you know, you don't think of it as poetry but that's what it is. You know, we've got Nikki Grimes, I just finished reading her book Between the Lines and it's a very clever and way up. There's a narrative story and within the narrative is poems by each of the different characters, because the characters are in high school, and they're building up to a poetry slam. So it's talking about the two groups of students, they're in teams. And then they're getting to know each other. So the narrative is around who they are and how they're interacting. And then there's the poems that they, as characters have composed, talking about themselves, or the issues that they are addressing. And it is, you know, spectacular, it's really great writing. And it's a good read, it's a good ya read as well. But it just almost seamlessly encourages the poetry and the foil is that the protagonist wants to be a newspaper reporter. And his counselor says, you need to know about poetry. Because if you want to be a good reporter, you need to connect with the story and the storytellers. And you need to be able to come up with headlines. So you need to know poetry. And it's just like, everybody, I was scratching my the character scratching head at that advice, I'm scratching and then you read the rest of the novel, and you go, Oh, yeah,

Lindsay Persohn: 36:20

yeah, yeah, I get it. And I, you know, I haven't read that book yet. So that will certainly be added to my list. But I think it also helps us to think differently about what writing can be, and the different ways that we express our ideas, and inherent in writing like that, there's so much agency for kids. So kind of back to that idea of discovering an agency and really opening doors for kids when I think, unfortunately, so many school opportunities can closed doors for kids.

Pamela Mason: 36:50

Yes, yes. And I don't think intentionally No, but they but they, but but that's how it's received. That's how it's received. For the learner and or their families.

Lindsay Persohn: 37:01

Right. Yeah. I mean, we could we could talk about family involvement, that might be another episode.

Pamela Mason: 37:06

Yes, but in terms of other resources, you know, Jason Reynolds is a great writer and poet. And he's got a couple of great YouTube videos that talk about the power of of using poetry. You know, and of course, there's, you know, Amanda Gorman and her are wonderful. She does a lot with rhyme, but also a lot with metaphor and symbolism. Yeah, kind of push that up, you know, to the middle school, high school level.

Lindsay Persohn: 37:38

And I think there's something about seeing poets read their own poetry that is so impactful. And I, I think particularly of Amanda Gorman and her her reading of that poetry, it adds a motion that we might not get otherwise, it adds meaning that we might not get otherwise. But I think that also leads to some really rich conversation with students about what poetry is and how it how it can potentially work in our lives and how it can convey a message to someone else. So yeah, this is all really great stuff. And I'm with you, Jason Reynolds has some outstanding videos out there. And some of them are really just snippets. Right. There's something about Jason Reynolds, I think you feel like you feel like you get to know him. Even in a minute and a half video, you feel like you know something about him, there's something so personable about him that I think can also help us to think about what poetry is and how it could be used in classrooms.

Pamela Mason: 38:31

Yes, he she, he's vulnerable, and he shares his vulnerabilities and in that way, maybe encourages and inspires sports, our learners to be vulnerable in ways that they might not have thought of.

Lindsay Persohn: 38:47

Right, be it and it gives them permission to, I think to see, you know, to see an adult doing that they can be vulnerable to. So Pamela given the challenges of today's educational climate, what message do you want teachers to hear?

Pamela Mason: 39:01

That you are important that you knowing your learners is important, as well as knowing what your learners need to know. And unless your learners feel seen, heard and accepted and safe in your classrooms, you can be giving the best lesson you can you can be following the script to the tee and unfortunately, it might not get you the results that you were hoping for.

Lindsay Persohn: 39:33

That's so important. Those connections are everything. I think I felt that in every grade level I've taught every student I've worked with the connection makes such a difference.

Pamela Mason: 39:45

And I've I've really had to bring that lesson to my work with master's students. You know, and it always reminds me when we do this poetry unit, you know that then watching them giggle and have fun and I'm going Yeah, Okay, we can be scholarly and we can be rigorous and we're using, you know, research based instruction. But you can't do it without the joy.

Lindsay Persohn: 40:09

Right. Right. What an important message. Well, Pamela, I thank you so much for your time today. I've really enjoyed our conversation. And I thank you for your tremendous contributions to the world of education.

Pamela Mason: 40:22

Oh, thank you, Lindsay. It's my pleasure, and it's a blessing to be able to do this work.

Lindsay Persohn: 40:27

Dr. Pamela A. Mason is known for her work studying the role of culturally sustaining pedagogy and promoting literacy achievement, the interaction of text complexity and background knowledge, qualitative and quantitative literacy assessment, and the efficacy of the roles of reading specialists and literacy coaches. Dr. Mason collaborates with colleagues nationally and globally on preparing reading specialist teachers and literacy coaches, developing the capacity of school leaders as literacy advocates, and evaluating school wide literacy programs. Dr. Mason has extensive experience as a reading language arts curriculum coordinator, and as an elementary school principal serving in both urban and suburban districts. She's active in the International Literacy Association, the literacy Research Association and the National Council of Teachers of English, serving on the standing committee against censorship. Dr. Pamela a Mason is a senior lecturer on education, a co chair of the literacy and languages concentration, and director of the gene shell reading lab at the Harvard Graduate School of Education. For the good of all students classroom caffeine aims to energize education research and practice. If this show provides you with things to think about, help us spread the word. Talk to your colleagues and educator friends about what you hear. You can support the show by subscribing liking and reviewing this podcast through your podcast provider. Connect with us on social media through Instagram, Facebook and Twitter, on our website at classroom caffeine.com You can learn more about each guest find transcripts of our episodes, explore topics using our drop down menu of tags, request an episode topic or potential guest support our research through a listener survey or learn more about the research we're doing on our publications page. We would love to hear from you. As always, I raised my mug to you teachers. Thanks for joining me