Classroom Caffeine
Classroom Caffeine
Another Conversation with Margaret Vaughn and Dixie Massey
Former Classroom Caffeine guests Margaret Vaughn and Dixie Massey are back to share with us their most recent collaboration, a book entitled Overcoming Reading Challenges: Kindergarten through Middle School. In their book, they address topics like phonemic awareness, decoding, fluency, vocabulary, and reading comprehension, as well as factors like motivation and student agency. Dr. Margaret Vaughn is known for her work in student agency, teacher decision-making, and reading materials for children. Dr. Vaughn is a Professor of Literacy at Washington State University. Dr. Dixie Massey is known for her work in the areas of literacy development, preservice teacher education, and children’s literature. Dr. Massey is a lecturer at Seattle Pacific University. Dixie and Margaret have co-authored many works together, including the book titled Teaching with Children’s Literature: Theory to Practice, which was the topic of conversation in their first collaborative Classroom Caffeine episode.
To cite this episode:
Persohn, L. (Host). (2024, Dec. 17). Another conversation with Margaret Vaughn and Dixie Massey (Season 5, No. 5) [Audio podcast episode]. In Classroom Caffeine Podcast series. https://www.classroomcaffeine.com/guests. DOI: 10.5240/A6D4-18CB-1719-8D9F-CE8B-Y
Connect with Classroom Caffeine at www.classroomcaffeine.com or on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn.
Education research has a problem the work of brilliant education researchers often doesn't reach the practice of brilliant teachers. Classroom Caffeine is here to help. In each episode, I talk with a top education researcher or an expert educator about what they have learned from years of research and experiences. In this episode, former Classroom Caffeine guests Margaret Vaughn and Dixie Massey are back to share with us their most recent collaboration, a book entitled Overcoming Reading Challenges Kindergarten Through Middle School. In their book, they address topics like phonemic awareness, decoding, fluency, vocabulary and reading comprehension, as well as factors like motivation and student agency.
Speaker 1:Dr Margaret Vaughn is known for her work in student agency, teacher decision-making and reading materials for children. Dr Vaughn is a professor of literacy at Washington State University. Dr Dixie Massey is known for her work in the areas of literacy development, pre-service teacher education and children's literature. Dr Massey is a lecturer at Seattle Pacific University. Dixie and Margaret have co-authored many works together, including the book titled Teaching with Children's Literature Theory to Practice, which was the topic of conversation in their first collaborative classroom caffeine episode. For more information about our guests, stay tuned to the end of this episode. So pour a cup of your favorite drink and join me, your host, lindsay Persaud, for Classroom Caffeine research to energize your teaching practice. Margaret and Dixie, thank you for joining me again. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:It's so good to be back with you. Margaret and Dixie, thank you for joining me again. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having us. It's so good to be back with you so from your own experiences in education.
Speaker 3:Will you share with us one or two moments that inform your thinking now?
Speaker 3:Well, since we've had the pleasure of talking with you before, I think it's not just a singular experience for me, but this kind of collection of being in classrooms and talking to teachers for me.
Speaker 3:But this kind of collection of being in classrooms and talking to teachers and I've had the experience recently of several people who are veterans talking about how difficult teaching is and some maybe negatively the idea of I want to be able to retire I just hope I can hold on and some maybe re-entering the classroom. I even have a friend who was a professor for a few years and went back into the classroom and is teaching kindergarten now and her comment was it's just so hard but it's great work and I want to get better at it, and that notion of getting better is really, I guess, what I would say. Notion of getting better is really, I guess, what I would say. The experience shaped this book helping teachers get better and also helping ourselves get better at both our content, knowledge, but communicating that. So I think that's really the kind of bedrock experience behind why we're writing this book now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Dixon and I always love working together, so there's always that piece of it, any excuse to to get to work together and and also to build on that too. Just with this, you know, just with the science of reading, right, kind of this big movement again that's happening and teachers know I mean this is not a new phenomenon. These are topics that teachers wrestle with every single day. They use assessment, informally and formally, to figure out how to support kids when it comes to reading, and so I think we also kind of wanted to pick on this moment to kind of make even more explicit the things that teachers are doing and just trying ways to make that even more accessible to those who teach teachers and also teachers in terms of professional development, to kind of re-hone those skills.
Speaker 2:I know there's so many districts that are hey, you know, you get training in science of reading, and so I think we also thought of this book and how this could be like a really positive book study, because it highlights teachers. It's not coming from a voice of you don't know, it's really coming from a voice of you know these things, these are things you do. Let's talk about how you use them and practice already in ways to kind of adapt them and maybe make them even more explicit in the classroom and what you're doing. So I think it's kind of also to just try to pick up on this movement. We're so tired of, you know, just the rhetoric around teachers not being able to, or they don't know this, or the deep professionalism that's happening again and you know it's just not a new voice. That's happening right. And so I think whenever we write, we try really hard to connect theory to practice in the hopes of elevating what teachers are already doing and what amazingly doing in classrooms that need to be voiced.
Speaker 3:I think one of the frameworks that I definitely operate from as well is that elevating teacher voice and offering a series of invitations to think about something else or something new or something in a different way.
Speaker 3:So that series of invitations is really kind of a phrase that is repetitive for me in trying to write and trying to teach the idea that I can't make anybody do anything, no matter how wonderful I think it is, and the point of requiring something then we lose agency and motivation and all those kinds of things.
Speaker 3:In my classes one of the ways that I try and explain it is if you've ever worked with or had toddlers and you try to make them eat vegetables, you can entice, you can play games, you can do all kinds of things, but you really can't make them eat vegetables if that's not what they want to do. So as we think about working with teachers, as teachers think about working with students, just the notion that we can't make teachers think about working with students, just the notion that we can't make. But we can invite, and that invitation should be warm, it should be inclusive, it should offer teachers a reason to step into that, whether it's thinking about phonics, whether it's thinking about motivation in their classroom. So I always hope that that is something that I can communicate in my writing classroom. So I always hope that that is something that I can communicate in my writing is that this notion of an invitation is to something don't just stop doing something and it's to be a part of a larger group. It's out of that isolation.
Speaker 2:That connection to the invitation and that reflection that you know we want to do in our own practice and I was joking earlier, how you know, I'm in a second grade classroom doing book clubs and I'm also do I've run afterschool book clubs for third through fifth graders and you know it just always amazes me the the times that I bomb as a teacher, right, like you know, I have these grand ideas and you know I want to teach comprehension and I have these points that I'm trying to connect with reading and writing connections and it's such a challenging profession, it's so rewarding but it's so challenging and I think about that often when I write as well just that layer of complexity and making these invitations explicit but also recognizing that they're complex and that you and your specific context are going to handle it completely different.
Speaker 2:And it's when we maybe perhaps fail or you know, those create new pathways for new avenues to learn from and to grow from. So I love that invitations and reflection, just kind of using those as opportunities to, you know, to get better with our teaching just kind of using those as opportunities to, you know, to get better with our teaching.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that that's one thing that's particularly challenging about this moment in teaching is that we know it's complex, we know it's contextualized, we know teachers know what they're doing, and yet we have policies put into place that don't allow for teacher autonomy, really sometimes even teacher thinking.
Speaker 1:Right, it's kind of a one-size-fits-all, everybody's doing this and it ignores the nuance and the complexities of what it's like to work with kids and to go in with the best laid plans and then realize that, oh, that's not exactly what they needed or, oh, you know, the situation called for something different in the moment.
Speaker 1:So I think that having this sort of interpretive lens to concepts like the science of reading or all the topics within the science of reading, it's just so important that we still honor teachers and invite them to use what they know and to incorporate what we know from research, or what we think we know from research, as it is always evolving in order to arrive at student learning, but in a way that feels human and enriching and inviting to your point, dixie. So I think that's a lot of what you all offer in this new book, and so I'm hoping that you'll tell us a bit more about your goals and how you achieve some of that, as well as some of the content of your book, in the response to this next question. So what do you want listeners to know about your work?
Speaker 2:I think one of the things that we really try to talk about, too, is that specific role of assessment, and sometimes I think, with concepts around the five pillars, we don't necessarily associate that with assessment, and so I think what we try to also think about is the role of assessment. When you're thinking about these concepts, how do you observe and look at students, right? How do you? You know what information are they already telling you before you plan this strategic instruction that you do? And so I think that frame of assessment guides the whole book in terms of how we are suggesting that people look at the different components of you know, the science of reading elements, and we also talk a lot about motivation and agency and how that connects with these concepts, right, I mean I don't know if we talk enough about that relationship with those elements. I think there's you know there's so many wonderful scholars who do amazing's. You know there's so many wonderful scholars who do amazing work. You know John Guthrie, and I mean there's just Peter Johnston. I mean there's so many people that do amazing work to connect those concepts, and I think the more that we can also invite and make that explicit in terms of connecting that you don't necessarily have to teach these skills in isolation, devoid of kids' agency and their motivation.
Speaker 2:And I think we tried really hard to connect that as well as to think about what does it also look beyond the elementary grades?
Speaker 2:And I think from a teacher educator perspective, you know, when we teach, let's say, reading methods, we can also focus on those elements in the elementary grades and sometimes we neglect I know I can, I personally, you know it's something I do sometimes is that you can neglect inadvertently those upper grades because you're so focused on those, those younger grades.
Speaker 2:And I think what it does is it helps to look at it across the continuum and to see those foundational skills. And then also, what does it mean when they're in sixth, seventh and eighth grade, right, what happens when they're in middle school? And you know that doesn't that we need to know that, I think, as elementary teachers, because of the work that we do is foundational and it does help to guide and some of the same problems that we see in middle school and secondary are are issues that a lot of elementary teachers may experience as well. So I think we try to make a little bit more of a fluid bridge across those grades, to make that transparent, to give voice to both ends, because I know sometimes they don't necessarily talk in terms of the thinking and the work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I would just follow up and extend that a little bit. So we call it the assessment framework in the book and asked to do it this way. But this kind of we refer to it as the straight line of I test on the first day of school and then I test at a later point and I test, and so you get these testing points all along a straight line, but you don't have this robust picture of a student. So we really invite teachers to think about observing first, even if it's only for a couple of days and we recognize that you know they're often asked to give particular tests but to be thoughtful and purposeful about observing students, and then we put that as a backdrop to each of the areas that we talk about. So what does that kind of assessment framework look like potentially when you're talking about motivation?
Speaker 3:So what does that kind of assessment framework look like potentially when you're talking about motivation? What does that framework look like when you're talking about decoding? How do you observe students when they're decoding? And so that's one piece that we really try to be clear about and give some concrete suggestions and also talk about. Why are those observations and conversations important? We make so many assumptions about our students, both as teacher educators but then teachers of elementary and middle grades students. We assume that we know why they're doing certain things and sometimes we're way off. We take something as a lack of motivation and they're like no, I'm hungry, or I had to go to the bathroom, or you know, we're tributing it entirely incorrectly, and so that framework, I think, was something we just felt like. We can give you a list of strategies, but you can't contextualize it unless you are actually actively implementing it kind of an assessment that includes more than artifacts and testing data.
Speaker 2:That makes me also remember how you know, we really structured the book around children who are experiencing reading difficulties, and so we talk about these concepts in the frame of if children are experiencing difficulties. This might be the lens to which you might want to look at things. Right, this is a helpful framework for all students, but particularly students who are experiencing difficulties students would experience when they're dealing with phonics, or what are some of the common difficulties kids face in comprehension and vocabulary? What are the kind of common things? And personally, like I feel like if I had had that as a teacher, particularly in those early years, it would have really set me up A to think gosh, there are strategies that I can do or there are ideas or there are pathways, and also I'm not alone in what I see. And I think that goes back to earlier conversation around collaboration and connection. Right, like there's power in understanding that these are common reading difficulties that you may see, and here are some potential ways you may want to try that to, you know, to work toward these, and so we tried to frame in each chapter questions, but then also these common difficulties, so that teachers could see, hey, if this is happening, this might be a potential pathway you might want to take.
Speaker 2:When I work with pre-service teachers who are just starting or just even in professional development, that's the stuff that they're craving is okay, yes, this is wonderful information, this is great knowledge, but how do I actually do this? How do I make this theory to practice really more explicit and how do I make it particularly for kids who aren't necessarily meeting what I'm trying to do? And I love the way that Dixie and I work, because we always try. I feel like I don't know if we do this successfully, but we really attempt to try to make that theory to practice explicit, and I think it stems from, you know, our work as classroom teachers.
Speaker 2:I mean that quest of trying to take that research. But then how do you apply it to this particular kid and this particular kid that might not be meeting the needs, or this other student that has these other special, you know, components of what they might need, and so I think when we write, that's really what we try to do is to come from that. Okay, this theory is great, but it doesn't work if it's in a library and a university, or if it's an article that's not read Like it's. How do we make it so it's accessible, so that if you can pick this up and apply it the next day, that would be great? You know that would be helpful.
Speaker 3:I want to follow up on that, margaret, just a little bit. There's certainly content that we want to communicate, but I think one piece of our work that isn't communicated and yet I feel like it's important and maybe it's helpful for people listening is the process that we go through. So this is the second book that Margaret and I have written together and the writing was a lot faster this time. We got better at it. Yeah, yeah, we did. We knew each other how they were writing and I'm going to apply this in a minute, but I'll tell the broader story first.
Speaker 3:So we spent a lot more time editing on this one than we did writing. Like, the writing went pretty quickly and the editing we went back and forth multiple times and one of the things that I really appreciated about the process was, as we went back through, we had some interesting conversations. So one was is that how you define fluency, margaret? No, I define it this way, so I pick on this researcher and this researcher's definitions who are you drawing from? I noticed you cited this person. I didn't cite that person and we had this really interesting conversation around that. And the other one was thinking about how we define and structure decoding and again, margaret was writing that section. So we kind of trade off sections and then edit each other's pretty, pretty strictly right. We also now on a second round and because we've collaborated on several other, things are more and more comfortable, challenging, and we're never uh, I think you're wrong, but we're more um, what about have you thought about? And so we are getting more and more comfortable revising one another's work yeah going.
Speaker 3:I I don't think that wording's right, all All of that, to say that the collaborative part is essential. I feel like I would know exponentially less if I weren't working with Margaret. Same here Hands down, challenge the thinking and we don't really talk about that as content in the book. But I would wish that for teachers that they have a teacher that they work with long enough, that they feel comfortable challenging one another and being able to offer ideas and just generally to make themselves a better teacher, to have this thought partner to make themselves a better teacher, to have this thought partner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that, dixie, that's so true. Yeah, I don't think we've ever really written about that in the preface or any of the parts of the book, but that's a key part of how we work too, so we each pick different topics that we might have been more familiar with and then we yeah, we traded off and I just I think it's so interesting because I'm more of an elementary and, dixie, would you qualify your maybe upper?
Speaker 3:Yeah, upper elementary to middle grades yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so it's a really wonderful balance in that way too, because I was like, oh, I don't know middle school and so, but then reading the chapter that she wrote on that, I was like this is so helpful, like this is really connected to what I would want to know from the elementary perspective around upper grades. And so, yeah, the collaboration piece is huge and you know it wouldn't, I don't think it would have been a good book. Honestly, if you know, one of us wrote individually. I think we really the connection we have in the collaboration, I think is so key. I think it it helps immensely.
Speaker 3:Well, in addition, in this book, we we gave the dedication to Jerry Duffy and Sam Miller.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:They were our professors for our dissertations and so, as we're talking about collaboration, I feel like we were really cognizant of others that have been collaborative with us, that have influenced not just what we think we know but the pattern in which we practice. So that whole idea of moving beyond just getting a test score right we could go back to Sam and Jerry's influence on us in addition to our own classroom teaching. But we really are part of a lineage of thinking and we just try and one do it justice and honor it and help translate that to the next student.
Speaker 1:So I feel like that collaborative piece both between Margaret and I and recognizing where we come from, if you will, is really important to us in our work and our writing things that I would love to pick back up on, but I think that maybe one of the messages that's really ringing most loudly to me is that, of course, collaboration is essential, but more than that, I think that when we do have someone in our lives who can help us to see the gray areas, interpret the gray areas and really inform them with again what we think we know from experience, observation, data, research, all of those elements it makes us better right.
Speaker 1:And I think that for me, the other thing I'm thinking about as we're talking is the ways in which some of the current particularly science of reading, legislative kinds of impacts are being handed down.
Speaker 1:That nuance, that collaborative spirit, is more or less gone and I think that for me that creates inherent problems because you can't navigate something that's black and white in a world that is full of gray areas.
Speaker 1:I wonder if that's what a lot of teachers are feeling, because, back to the story that we started with that you started with Dixie with veteran teachers really having a hard time navigating. I also have friends who are veteran teachers who say I feel like it's my first year, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing and in some ways it feels like some of the heavy-handed mandates have kind of pulled the rug out from under people, so the footing they thought they may have had after, let's say, 20 years of teaching experience has largely been pulled out from under them, because now all of a sudden it's like well, you can't use observation and conversation, we are going to base all of our instructional decisions off of a computerized assessment, and I think that that puts teachers in a really bad spot right, Especially those who are there to support kids as individuals and as humans.
Speaker 2:Yeah that's so true. I think that's such a great connection that it can get lost in translation in terms of how it looks in classrooms and and what a shame, you know, what a shame that we're not highlighting that, and I think you know I've heard this before in different areas and so this is definitely not my, my thought, and this goes back to the spirit of collaboration. But you know, we really need a movement of the professionalism of teachers, right, just as much as the rhetoric on the science of reading and there's that media. We need this outlet of this movement around what skilled teachers are, what the profession is, this uplifting of the profession, and I think we need to counter that and I think we're all teachers, administrators, district people, professors, students, like parents, community members I feel like we need to have our own movement around what teaching is and I think maybe in that way there's a hope that we can kind of speak back, you know, to kind of support those areas that are not necessarily being highlighted and supported.
Speaker 3:And not just in the elevation of teachers, but also the elevation of students. Yeah, the collaboration that we try and hint at is that you work collaboratively with your students, that you don't know a lot of things, and it's okay to say I don't know. What do you think about it with students, even when they're young? What do you think about it with students even when they're young? And to treat them as thinkers along with you who have something to offer you?
Speaker 3:And in some of the current context, I think that's also really devalued, as the teacher should know. If the teacher doesn't know, this is the legislation that's going to tell you what you should know, and students know nothing and we're going to tell them. It's back to that blank slate which I have such a problem with. They are not blank slates. So how is it that we're trying to legislate so much of exactly what student students should know in some areas and then, at the same time, use the rhetoric around culturally sustaining practice and honoring cultures? Those two things don't seem like they should go together, or that they do, and so no wonder teachers are feeling really frustrated because they're asking to do two things that, theoretically, you can't combine, in my estimation theoretically you can't combine.
Speaker 1:In my estimation Exactly and I think that that's really the point I was hinting at is that we have mandates versus experience and the two they don't always intersect, and it does put teachers in a really difficult spot. What else would you like listeners to know about your work?
Speaker 2:I just think that the role of agency and the role of motivation right, it's just so key.
Speaker 3:Margaret and I can't write anything about anything without that motivation and agency, and that I mean. That's the truth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it always comes up, you know, and it's always at the. I don't say it always comes up, but it's always there in the forefront of our minds. In terms of how we view this, and I think when we thought about this book, it's that, you know, it doesn't have to be disconnected from one another. They can and they should intersect and they should always be present. And you know, there's so much research that aligns with, when kids are in motivating context, what happens to their, you know, reading enjoyment, reading for engagement, and some, you know, same with agency. You know, we're starting to see more of that in terms of student outcomes related to higher levels of agency, and I just I think that connecting that as being something that is doesn't have to exist on its own.
Speaker 2:I might argue that it needs to be at the front. Before you even think about these skills, right, I mean, you need to think about your context. You need to think about the books and the materials. You need to think about how much voice do the students have? You know how engaged are they to read that text?
Speaker 3:you know five times, right, like thinking about culturally responsive text, how they're engaged, high, high interest text, and so we talk a lot in the book about that level of you know classroom practice oriented, focused instruction that is agentic and is serves to motivate kids and one of the things we wrestled with in this book was even just the sequence of chapters about yes for margaret I we had one board around that, and so in our book they're not like motivation and agency or chapters five and six, so they're right in the middle.
Speaker 3:But we thought and thought and thought about it we put them as the very first thing, because if we're not addressing those kinds of issues then, at least in my mind, all the rest of it really doesn't matter. If I teach a student to read and they don't read because they don't feel like they have any agency in what they're reading and how they're responding, then I don't think I've done my job and I'm not successful. So you know, we opted in our writing to put them midway for a few reasons. But if you were to ask us maybe how we'd change the book, we would make that even stronger, and even stronger from the beginning of agency and motivation.
Speaker 2:I think part of what we structured it from the order was to provide a backdrop of what's happening you know what's going on.
Speaker 2:And then we talked about some of the reading phases of kids and how that looks like, mainly because we didn't want to make assumptions about the reader's knowledge in terms of you know, how kids develop when it comes to reading, and so we wanted to kind of put up front some of those areas that maybe could make. Also, you know, sometimes that's not really explicit when we talk about those elements of reading, the science of reading, elements we don't necessarily connect the context of what's happening with legislation and also how kids actually develop when it comes to reading, and so we wanted to contextualize a bit more around what reading instruction actually looks like. I think one of the early conversations Dixie and I had was, you know, I have a younger. My son is in second grade, and so I think when we first started writing this, thinking about this book, he was in younger grades and I was just like you know, dixie, like I come across parents who say to me like how is it that my child, already in kindergarten, is behind? You know, how is this even possible?
Speaker 2:And you know, and so that question has stuck with me for several years. And just also, like, in so many different layers, right, the context of like, what are we asking of kids in kindergarten? You know, what do we expect of parents? You know so many layers you can just imagine. And so for me, when we were writing this book, that question was always in the front of my mind is that you know what are these expectations and how? Really how is it that a child coming into kindergarten is who knows the alphabet? Who is beginning to read is already considered behind per se? You know right, in terms of some of these alphabet. Who is beginning to read is already considered behind per se? You know right, in terms of some of these standards to read.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so might have some of that motivational motivation, yeah, and yet the school designates them as behind, and you know we provide examples of.
Speaker 2:You know this is what typically we see is expected at the beginning of first grade and this is the demand at the end of first grade. And so we talk a little bit about making that explicit, which I feel like as a teacher, those are a bit of a nugget, like you know. When I talk with parents now, I make that explicit and I say this is where a child in first grade starts to read typically, and this is where they end and they're like wow, that's amazing, that's so much more reading there's, you know there's. It's just so much more complex and I think sharing that with parents and communities I think is important as well and I think that's in part to pick to kind of go back and explain. That's in part why we made that. That's not necessarily part of conversations when we talk about some of these skills. We don't necessarily part of conversations when we talk about some of these skills. We don't tend to contextualize it in reading development in terms of like motivation and how kids want to have a voice in saying what they're reading.
Speaker 1:Well, this also reminds me of that three-point framework for assessment that we were talking about earlier. In the area where I live, kindergarten readiness is determined by a 27-question computer-based test. In the area where I live, kindergarten readiness is determined by a 27-question computer-based test. In the district where I live, the average completion time is nine minutes, and so in nine minutes a five-year-old is more or less. Whether they know it, they are kind of branding themselves as a learner. And if we are solely basing instructional decisions on that assessment or even labels, for that matter, because it does become a part of the larger conversation about, you know, how prepared our kids for school Well, if this is our measure and I've heard it in fact, a few weeks ago I was at a luncheon for literacy where I heard you know, 44% of kids aren't ready for kindergarten, but we never really hear the rest of the story that that's the tool that determines it and it's not really based on observation and conversation, it's based on computer generated data points only.
Speaker 1:And so I think again, this just sort of reminds me of really our whole conversation about how important it is to consider the context, how important it is to consider the context, how important it is to consider agency and motivation.
Speaker 1:You know, I can't imagine that there are many five-year-olds who sit down in front of that computer on one of their first days of kindergarten thinking, man, I'm going to ace this. Whatever the heck it is, I'm going to ace this test, you know, because there really isn't space for engagement, agency, motivation in that kind of work. So, yeah, I appreciate your frame of assessment. That could help to really contextualize and enrich that conversation about what it means to be ready for school and the kinds of learners we see in front of us in our classrooms. You know, because so often I think they're reduced to red, yellow and green dots on a sheet of paper, and we know that kids bring so much more to their classroom context than that, and to the world, of course. So, given the challenges of today's educational climate we've certainly talked about a few of them what message do you all want teachers to hear?
Speaker 2:You know you're doing a great job at a really hard time in the field and also in the profession, and without you none of us would be here, right? I mean I think that's always a sober reminder to policymakers and administrators and really everyone without a teacher be that your parents, your guardians, in formal settings, in schools there's a good chance you probably wouldn't be. You know, potentially, where you are right now and so I think you know, stay true to your vision and reflect on that vision and find those like-minded people to guide you and support you, because it's not easy. And, yeah, I mean we. There's a lot of people who are cheering you on and I think I can say on behalf of all of us we are, we're cheering you on.
Speaker 3:I would also say small changes.
Speaker 3:I think sometimes it's easy to hear these big policies and think I can't do anything and lose our own agency, and even if I could make a small change, it's not worth it.
Speaker 3:But small changes and I hope this comes through in our book is small changes over time, when consistently implemented, really do make changes, and we see that in all ways of life, whether it's exercise, making the small change of choosing something different to eat or, you know, a few more steps a day, when applied consistently, can really make a big difference. So in teaching, even if these big changes can't happen in the way perhaps you want to teach, there are small changes that can be made, that can be implemented. Even if it's a few minutes of reading, even if it's letting students choose a text once every two or three weeks instead of not at all, those changes matter, those changes count, and to value those kinds of small changes that you are making in your teaching would be something that I would really want to encourage teachers to do would be something that I would really want to encourage teachers to do.
Speaker 1:What an important reminder and I think that in many facets of life, small changes are the ones that are achievable and the reminder that they can really help us to make big changes over time, particularly as I joined a Pilates studio last week for a once a week class thinking I can do this once a week.
Speaker 1:I could add one I could get up at 4.30 am once a week to get to Pilates once a week, but with the idea that those small changes over time they really do mean something. And if that is the way that we get a bite on helping our vision come to fruition or helping to make impactful changes in our lives or in the lives of others, what an important and inspirational reminder. So thank you for that, and I think that does help us to stay true to our vision, because it can be really hard to envision how we get to big changes without making small steps so right.
Speaker 1:Love that, as always, it is wonderful talking with you, ladies. Thank you so much for your time today, thank you for the work that you do in the world and thank you for your contributions to education.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Good to see you, Dixie.
Speaker 1:Thank you, lindsay. Dr Margaret Vaughn is known for her work in student agency teacher decision-making and reading materials for children. Dr Vaughn is known for her work in student agency teacher decision-making and reading materials for children. Dr Vaughn's work has appeared in the Reading Teacher Reading Research Quarterly Review of Educational Research, reading Psychology Theory into Practice, teaching and Teacher Education. Children's Literature in Education Journal of Curriculum Studies. Peabody Journal of Education Journal of Reading Education, as well as other journals, books and book chapters. Dr Vaughn is a professor of literacy at Washington State University.
Speaker 1:Dr Dixie Massey is known for her work in the areas of literacy development, pre-service teacher education and children's literature. Her work has been published in the Reading Teacher Literacy Today, reading Research Quarterly Journal of Adolescent and Adult Literacy. Journal of Literacy Research Theory into Practice. Peabody Journal of Education, social Studies and the Young Learner Social Education, as well as many other journals, books and blogs. She is involved with the Literacy Research Association as the organization's historian and the co-chair of the History of Reading Innovative Community Group. Dr Massey is a lecturer at Seattle Pacific University. Dixie and Margaret have co-authored many works together, including their 2021 book titled Teaching with Children's Literature Theory to Practice. You can reach Margaret at margaretvon at wsuedu. That's m-a-r-g-a-r-e-t. Dot. V-a-u-g-h-n at wsuedu, and you can reach Dixie at massed at spuedu. That's m-a-S-S-E-Y-D at SPUedu.
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