In our first episode of the new golf season, we are joined by Dr. Jim Afremow, a renowned sports psychologist. Drawing on his extensive experience working with professional athletes and teams, Jim shares an inside look into mental performance and what successful athletes do in preparation for their success.
We also discuss working with junior players, teaching them the skills for success whether it be in golf, sports in general, or more importantly, in life. "The younger you are the more of a sponge you are . . . So if a parent is acting calm, confident, playful, having fun in the sport, its more likely we pick up on that."
It is a great episode for parents, golf coaches and aspiring elite players to learn from one of the leading sports psychologists on developing the mental skills for success.
Of course, in the last segment Jim shares some tips and ideas on what the recreational golfer can do to prepare themselves for the upcoming Spring season -- how to practice more effectively, to prepare for your round of golf, and how to shake off the bad shots and prepare for the next one.
In our first episode of the new golf season, we are joined by Dr. Jim Afremow, a renowned sports psychologist. Drawing on his extensive experience working with professional athletes and teams, Jim shares an inside look into mental performance and what successful athletes do in preparation for their success.
We also discuss working with junior players, teaching them the skills for success whether it be in golf, sports in general, or more importantly, in life. "The younger you are the more of a sponge you are . . . So if a parent is acting calm, confident, playful, having fun in the sport, its more likely we pick up on that."
It is a great episode for parents, golf coaches and aspiring elite players to learn from one of the leading sports psychologists on developing the mental skills for success.
Of course, in the last segment Jim shares some tips and ideas on what the recreational golfer can do to prepare themselves for the upcoming Spring season -- how to practice more effectively, to prepare for your round of golf, and how to shake off the bad shots and prepare for the next one.
Hello, good afternoon, and welcome to our podcast show. We're talking golf. My name is Douglas Maida, and I'm your host. Now in today's show, we have a very special guest joining us. His name is Dr. Jim Afremow. Jim is a leading sports psychologist having worked in multiple sports fields, ranging from the NHL hockey, Major League Baseball, and, of course, golf, amongst others. He's also worked in the sport pardon me in the Business Management Leadership arena as well. Now, Jim has been a very prolific author in recent times. Some of the books he's written include the Champions Mind, the Champions Comeback, and the Young Champions Mind. His most recent book is called the Leaders Mind. And as you can appreciate the old deal with mental performance and human performance issues. Now, Jim is currently in Portland, Oregon, he was formerly in Phoenix, Arizona, and he'll be joining us via zoom to our show. Now before we get going into our show, we just like to take a very brief message from our sponsors. And then we'll get right into the show. Hi, welcome back to our show. Thank you for staying with us. Let's get right to our guest, Dr. Jim Afremow. Jim is a sports psychologist who's been performing in or working in various sports industries including baseball, hockey, basketball, golf, and various others. Now Jim is joining us via zoom from his home in Portland, Oregon. He's relocated to Portland, from his former location in Phoenix, Arizona. Jim had attended university or grew up in the Portland area attended University of Oregon, where he had his bachelor's degree in psychology. He then attended Michigan State University where he completed both a master's degree in counseling psychology, and then completed his PhD in sports psychology. Thank you for joining us, Jim. And a big welcome to our show.
Jim Afremow:Thanks so much, Douglas. Great to be with you today.
Douglas Maida:Ya know, it's great to have you here. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your background and what goes into sports psychology and mental performance?
Jim Afremow:Absolutely. So I grew up in a very sports oriented family, a very active family. I grew up in Portland, Oregon, we go hiking and mountain climbing and you know, I'd play all the different sports, ran track and field played a little bit of golf. I wish I had played more when I was younger, but I'd be a little bit better than I am today. But I played a lot of different sports. And I was always fascinated by you know, the mental side of the game, even though no one really talked about it back then when I was growing up. And so I'd asked questions like, hey, if I get nervous before a track meet, what can I do? And I never got satisfactory answers. It was always just relax or don't worry about it. And you know, if I was in a slump, how do I get out of this slump? And it was just well just keep working hard. And so what that led me on my own personal kind of exploration and journey into studying the mental game and, and I went to University of Oregon studied psychology fell in love with the field, you know, what makes people tick? How can we perform our best? How can we overcome, you know, challenges in life. And then I went on to study sports psychology as kind of my main emphasis at Michigan State, a great program in sports psychology. But along the way there as I started working with teams, one of the first teams that I work with was the women's golf team. So that was a lot of fun. Nick Saban was the football coach Tom Izzo and basketball. So I got a lot of great experiences there. But as I started working with athletes, they started mentioning, well, my parents are going through a divorce, or I just broke up with my boyfriend or girlfriend, or I have a history of depression or anxiety, or, you know, I might have some substance abuse issues. So I started realizing in order to work with the 360 degree person, I need to get a master's degree in counseling as well. So I did a double degree in sports psychology and counseling. And I've loved every minute of it.
Douglas Maida:Well, that's quite the course, courseload you had there?
Jim Afremow:That's right. Yeah, a lot of great classes. And it was fun just learning about, you know, most, most of us tend to think of psychology is more when things are going wrong. But it was really fun just focusing on a lot of psychology where, hey, everything's going well, how can we even get better?
Douglas Maida:Right? Now, I understand you used to be in the Phoenix area, and you've now relocated back up into the Pacific Northwest.
Jim Afremow:That's right. Spent a lot of time in Phoenix, working at Arizona State University. My wife and I moved out there, I met her at Michigan State. And she did her internship. She's in psychology too, but more research, kind of clinical counseling. So she worked at ASU. And then I started working at ASU. And it's kind of a funny story where I reached out to the sports medicine department when we moved to Arizona. And the sport med Doc said, Hey, we don't have anyone right now. But we could probably use someone so stay in touch. About two weeks later, he called and said, Hey, we have a catcher on the baseball team with the yips and do you think you can help them? And I said, Well, let's let's give it a go. And so I ended up meeting with the catcher. Baseball team was one of the best in the country. And, and he was just feeling a lot of pressure and expectations and really struggling. And so he had trouble throwing the ball back to the pitcher. And you know, we can all sometimes relate to that in golf, or sometimes, you know, like, the easier shots or almost the harder shots for us. And anyway, we ended up working really well together. He got over the hips and started playing the way he knew how to play. And then they offered me a job. So I was able to work with all the teams there at ASU and including the men's and women's golf teams. And so that was just a blast.
Douglas Maida:Wow. Wow, fantastic. So, Jim, you worked in Arizona State University for a period of time working as a sports psychologist. You've also worked with some professional teams and whatnot. I see one of the more recent ones was the San Francisco Giants organization. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that experience?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, what an amazing experience. What a great organization. So I was the peak performance coordinator for the whole organization. And then also, you know, mental skills coach. And basically what that meant was that I was available to all the minor league players and the Major League players. And I would also travel through the system. So go to San Francisco, or go throughout the minor league system. And I think there were about 500 total baseball player. So that's a lot. I think, when I was at ASU, there's about five or 600 total student athletes. So that was a lot with the Giants. And that was a lot of fun. Incredible coaches, incredible players. They won three World Series, you know, with a lot of just amazing, amazing games and performances, you know, just a few years ago, and not only that talking to these great players, but the legends would come around during spring training. So I got to meet Willie Mays and all these, you know, legends of the game and talk about the mental game with them.
Douglas Maida:So you also got players like Willie McCovey, and
Jim Afremow:That's right with all those as well. That's right, with Gaylord Perry Will, Willie McCovey, you know Jack Clark, all these guys and, and Will Clark and and and they were so generous, so So you know, humble, and they all love talking about the mental game. So, Willie Mays, I said, you know, Mr. Mays, did you? You know, did you use a lot of visualization when you played and he said, he said, Yeah, we didn't call it that. But I like to visualize myself playing the whole game before I played it. And then he winked at me. And he said, from every position on the field, and so yeah, he said that, you know, he'd kind of be in the hot bath or whatever and, and just visualize himself playing and he said it really kind of, you know, helped him to feel like he had been there, you know, when the game started,
Douglas Maida:Jim, what is the difference between? I mean, you, you talked about the visualization. And Willie Mays saying that they didn't call it visualization in the day. But is there a difference between mental performance and visualization? I mean, or is there overlap? Or is one part of the other? Or how does that come together and work?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, you know, there's different terms for, for some of these things that we talk about, you know, I look at mental performance, or the mental game or even, you know, mental rehearsal as being a little bit more of a umbrella category. Whereas visualization would be a specific skill within that category. So for example, you know, Jack, Nicklaus said, I never missed a putt in my mind. Tiger Woods said, you know, I see the ball going, where I want it to go before every shot. So they're really specific about, you know, feeling the shot, seeing the shot, and then executing the shot. Or it might be off the course, thinking about how they want to play each hole that next day, or that or later that day, one PGA Tour winner that I worked with, he said that, what he liked to do is, you know, be staying at, you know, stay at a hotel. And in the morning, he get up early, before his round, take a hot bath, and just close his eyes, turn off all lights, close his eyes and visualize himself birdieing every hole. So you know, so there's different ways to do it and visualization skills. So the more you use it, the better at it you get, the more it helps your game. But you know, kind of more in the mental game, I look at it as just those, those those small, little kind of challenges that we have with ourselves. So, you know, can I be comfortable over the ball? Can I, you know, let go of distractions quicker, can I believe in myself to an unbelievable level, when I'm playing? Can I keep my cool when things around me aren't going as expected. And so, you know, simulation training on the range is kind of similar to visualization. And you could call that mental rehearsal. So playing holes or shots, you know, in your imagination, when you're on the range, as if you are on the course can be, you know, something that get, we can help us get a lot more out of our practice.
Douglas Maida:When you're a high performance athlete like that? How does one start to begin the process of preparing mentally? I mean, is there a certain step that you would take? Or is it just be an area that you're familiar with? Like say it's the visualization concept? You start with that? Or how does that come together for for an athlete, Jim?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, I think it's usually, you know, what we tend to gravitate towards. So what might feel more comfortable or more fun at first. So some players might gravitate more toward mindfulness and meditation and, and breathing techniques, others might gravitate more toward visualization and picturing themselves being the player they want to want to be and playing the way that they want to play. But I think we're doing all these, it's just how disciplined are we with them and making them part of our actual, you know, program of excellent. So, you know, so dedicating time to work on these mental skills and strategies, I think, is really important. The other thing too, that's really interesting about the mental game is we can do a lot of these skills and strategies work on them in parallel with working on our physical game. So for example, you know, when we're on the course, we could work on maintaining good body language when we're, you know, when we're at practice, and we start getting distracted about okay, what do I have to do later today? Or what am I going to have for dinner later, you know, mindfulness, come back to the moment be where your golf clubs are, take a deep breath, be back in the moment. But in general, though, I think that all the mental skills and strategies are things that we probably do somewhat spontaneously, it's just being a little bit more deliberate with them, and having a solid improvement plan around them.
Douglas Maida:So when you're talking about mental performance, we've been talking a lot about the preparation of it. all. What about the aspect of say something happens that you're not expecting? And, you know, you have that bit of adversity that pops up? And I'm thinking now within a golf context, because I think, I mean, you told me what you think I think Golf was a little bit of a unique sport in that it's so individualized. And it's not like you're playing against a competitor directly, it's you playing the course and you playing your best performance. So let's say for example, you're you're playing and you put a bad swing on a shot, and you say, miss the Green on a par three, and you put yourself into some trouble or you put it in the pond. How does one start to come back to how would you say re-right the ship if you will, after an event like that?
Jim Afremow:I love that because, you know, righting the ship is is something that we're going to have to do every round because, you know, no one's ever stepped on the golf course, and played, you know, a perfect round of golf. And so You know, at some level, we're always trying to write the ship. Sometimes some rounds, you know, more than others. But I think one is, you know, it sounds a little paradoxical. But you know, you know, kind of expect the best, but be prepared for everything before you even go out there. And so when challenges or adversity or poor shots pop up, you know, one of the little phrases I like to use is that it's only a poor shot if you react poorly to that shot. And so we're going to hit shots that are offline. Ask the best players in the world, how many shots did you hit exactly the way you wanted to, during around a golf and it's not that many. And so for, for the rest of us, it's going to be most of the shots are not going to come off exactly the way we want them to come off. But if we can react positively, instead of negatively to those shots, number one, is we're going to maintain our composure, we're going to maintain our sense of calm, and we'll be much more prepared mentally, to hit the next shot. And, you know, there's no better feeling than, you know, feeling like you know, we're almost dead and buried on a hole and then finding a way to still make par or at least salvage the hole, and then get them that momentum back again. So I would look at, you know, when when things pop up on the golf course that, you know, when adversity strikes a man, this is great, this what I was expecting, let's show it I made up lets you know, it's almost think of it as a character defining moment. To show what you're made of, rather than, Oh, there goes my chance of breaking 80.
Douglas Maida:Yes, so focus on the opportunity, as opposed to the downside or the negative of
Jim Afremow:Yep. And And remember, the goal is, you know, I think at the end of the round, like when you take off your golf shoes, and you know, maybe get back in your car or whatever the situation, you have it, you know, you're hanging out with your buddies after the round or a tournament play when you you know, sign your scorecard, you want to be able to look yourself in the eyes, you know, look yourself in the mirror and be able to say I posted the best possible score I could post today. And and if you could say that, then to me, you won the mental game, whether you won or lost, you know, in terms of the tournament, or in terms of what score you wanted, but it's really getting the most out of whatever you do have that day. We could all live with a tough day on the golf course. But what really stings is when we know that you know what I got in my own way, I got too distracted. I had too many doubts. You know, I got too frustrated out there. So that's what we're trying to work against.
Douglas Maida:Right. A couple of moments ago, you mentioned about dealing with the adversity and getting ready for the next shot. And it just reminded me of something that Ben Hogan was famous for saying that apparently the the most important shot is going to be the next one.
Jim Afremow:Yeah, I love that. And and, you know, we're talking about San Francisco Giants earlier, you know, we talked about baseball, like, you know, have almost like a, you know, be a one pitch champion, you know, like, it's just this pitch. And the only thing I care about, let's say you're a pitcher in baseball, the only thing I really care about is this next pitch, you know, what's my strategy for this next pitch? And how well can I execute it? So that's perfect for golf. It's the only thing I care about, is this shot at hand, and how well I can execute it. Nothing else matters the past the future. Who's watching? You know, anything else is just noise?
Douglas Maida:Yeah, yeah. At the a&e earlier this year, well, last year, the eventual champion, Patty Tavatanikit, it was talking a little bit about struggling in one section of the tournament with staying present and not getting ahead of herself and, and dealing with a little bit of adversity and whatnot, and was talking about the fact that she was able to, to overcome that. And, you know, it was a sign of self satisfaction or a little bit of pride that she was able to meet that challenge and overcome it. Is that something that, you know, I guess part of it is is when you're training is the ideas to develop that type of behavior over and over again, so that you get familiar with that feeling and realizing that you can compartmentalize that a bit of adversity and that it's not as bad as it seems.
Jim Afremow:Well, that you just made a really important point there that the things that we fare most on the golf course are usually not as bad as we think they're going to be. So we hit a bad shot, we, you know, we go through a rough stretch of holes. Well, guess what? You might be ready for a good stretch of holes, or that bad shot might lead to if you handle it right might lead to a really cool recovery shot. And so I think the thing that we need to do is practice radical acceptance out there. And it sounds kind of counterintuitive because As we, you know, we're so ambitious when we're on the course we want to score as low as we possibly can, that to accept not so great shot just feels like we're accepting mediocrity. But really what you're doing is you're accepting, you know, you're not falling in love with what you just did. But what you're doing is you're accepting that it happened. And that the sooner you can let go of that, the more you can be back in the present and enjoy this shot this moment. So I think that's really important. That thing about being present is is such an important life skill as well, most of us are living in the future, and afraid of it, or we're stuck in the past and angry and upset about it. And so I love the sport psychology saying that there's no pressure in the present moment. So the more present we can be, the more pleasure we're going to experience and the better we're going to perform.
Douglas Maida:So what you're saying, the piece I'm picking up on, one of the aspects is that letting go is obviously an important aspect, particularly in a sport like golf, where your little errors are going to be very mindful and present, because it is such an individualized sport.
Jim Afremow:Yeah, absolutely. And though, and the way to look at that is practice, you're letting go muscle. So each time you could say, let it go, let it go, you know, next shot, best shot, whatever little phrase that you have, you're practicing developing, you're letting go muscle, and the best athletes in the world are masters of letting go.
Douglas Maida:Okay, so what you're saying is basically that, affirming what you're saying about the best athletes, then it's the ability to let go of, of the adversity and, and just get yourself back, righted, in back into the moment then. And letting go is a key part of that.
Jim Afremow:It's a huge part because, again, you know, Dr. Bob Rotella, my colleague says, you know, golf is not a game of perfect things are gonna happen out there. And so it's not about being perfect. It's about how quickly can you recover from those mistakes, or that adversity? That's a real big sign of mental toughness right there.
Douglas Maida:Right. So somebody like a Sevi Ballasteros would have had a strong sense of mental performance and mental strength to be able to deal with a lot of the shots that he put himself into.
Jim Afremow:That's right, and you almost look at it as advantage. It's almost like, Man, I hit it, you know, I almost hit that ball off the property. I'm the only one that could get up and down from there. So let's go have fun with that shot. You know, I think that's the that's a great attitude.
Douglas Maida:And I suppose the flip side to it is it can be incredibly demoralizing. Whoever you're playing with?
Jim Afremow:That's exactly right. Yeah, you definitely, there's some gamesmanship there, where it's like, Man, this guy could get up and down from anywhere. So,
Douglas Maida:Jim, what does a high performance athlete -- What does a high performance athlete do that's going to be different than from the recreational golfer?
Jim Afremow:Well, you know, one way to look at that would be for a high performance athlete, you know, that the competition is so stiff, you know, for example, when as with the Giants, there were players from all over the world. So, you know, Venezuela, from Dominican Republic, from, you know, South Korea, from Canada, from the US from Mexico. And so, you know, for an elite athlete, elite golfer, you need to your whole life almost has to revolve around your game. Whereas, you know, for us recreational players, for those that are listening, golf revolves around our whole life. And so, you know, like, so, you know, we don't get to play or practice as much. But the neat thing is, although we might not be able to play our practice as much as a pro, what we can do is learn how to think like them. And, and, you know, I might not be able to hit the ball as far as Bryson Dechambeau, but there's nothing preventing me or you or anyone from thinking like a champion. And so that's what I love about the mental game is we could all no one is born with like a Champions mind gene, we could all develop it. And it not only will help us play better golf, have more fun at golf, but it'll help us in all areas of life.
Douglas Maida:So mental performance skills that we're talking about, they're pretty much going to be the same processes, regardless of what sport you're playing. Is that correct?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, high performance is high performance. So it's really interesting. I've been fortunate enough to work with just you know, pretty much every sport every you know, every type of sport out there and of course, there's you know, some difference differences between individual sports or team sports or you know, combat sports, versus you know, more stick and ball sports. But the really neat thing is that we end up talking about confidence. We end up talking about concentration, we talk about composure, we talk about commitment, competitiveness, you know, clarity, what do you want, what are your goals, how bad do you want those? What price are you willing to pay? And then a lot of the mental skills are the same in terms of have gratitude visualization, positive self talk, breathing techniques, you know, having pre performance routines or pre shot routines to help us get in the greatest state of mind and mood that we can be in when we when we're performing. So that's a lot of fun and working with athletes from different sports. They like hearing examples from, you know, hey, what are what are the baseball guys you work with? Say? Or what are the softball players that you work with? Say? Or, you know, what are the golfers say they love hearing stories from other elite athletes, because again, high performance is really high performance,
Douglas Maida:And high performance from the sports field would tend to dovetail quite nicely into the business world, would it not? Organizational Leadership world?
Jim Afremow:Absolutely. I love working with corporate athletes, because when you think about it, sometimes, you know, I'll say, Hey, you have a harder job than these pro athletes, and, you know, in college student athletes that I work with, and they're like, Well, what are you talking about? I'll say, well, they, you know, they might only be on the golf course at worst, you know, four or five hours, you know, where you're at work 10 hours, you know, like, you're you're on, you're at your desk for 10 straight hours, or they might have more time off, or, you know, they might have this whole support system around them, where you're kind of off on your own trying to do the best you can in the company. And so I love working with corporate athletes and they love, you know, again, kind of thinking of themselves as, hey, you know, I'm an athlete in my own right, how can I have a, you know, kind of a gold medal mindset as well.
Douglas Maida:Let's use that as a bit of a segue, Jim, when we come back. And when we come back from our short break, where we'll talk a little bit about the fact that we're coming into springtime, or at least here in the North, the northern hemisphere and with that the meaning of a or promise of a new golf season. So let's pick that up. When we come right back. We're gonna take a short break, and we'll see you shortly. Alright, we're back. Thank you for staying with us. Now let's get right back into things. As I mentioned, it's springtime, and the promise of a new golf season is upon us, at least here in the northern hemisphere. So, Jim, let's talk a little bit now about junior players. Because there's been a lot of focus in recent years about junior players developing and becoming better golfers and athletes in general and in other sports. So let's chat a little bit about, you mentioned in your one book, the young champions mind set, I believe it is about what the winning mindset is, and maybe you can explain what you see the winning mindset consisting of.
Jim Afremow:Yeah, well, I would say that we're all on our own personal journey of excellence. And to me, we all all of us have two choices. One choice is to settle for silver. And that's just kind of go through the motions, you know, kind of hold back, play it too safe. You know, and kind of almost at times be our own worst enemy with negative self talk and you know, behaviors that aren't really working for us versus thinking gold. And so to me, you know, winning mindset is someone who thinks gold -- that I want to find out how good I can get, you know, at my sport, I want to you know, I want to be vitally involved in my life, doing the things that I value most and making a positive difference around me. So you know, that's thinking feeling and acting in ways that help you to be the very best you can be. And so that's what I would use as a metaphor for being a champion. We all might not be the champion on any given day, but we can all be a champion if we can you know, when our head hits the pillow at night I you know, I like it. I like it's often referred to as the pillow test. Can you pass the pillow test, which means when your head hits the pillow at night, you know, can you smile and say, you know, I got the best out of myself today, you know, I had a gold medal day to day. And if you can do that, more often than not, you're going to live a gold medal life. So what I love for in working with junior athletes is, you know, when I work with college athletes, a lot of them will say, after two or three sessions of talking about these things, and working on these, you know, mental skills and strategies -- Man, I wish I started this a lot younger than it would be more automatic. Now I want to hit that wall, my first year of college, this would be just more about kind of how I think and how I feel and behave. And so in a lot of ways, the younger the better in terms of working on the mental game.
Douglas Maida:Well, that leads us into the question -- how young is too young to start when it comes to things like mental performance and developing a mental attitude and preparation?
Jim Afremow:Well, I think that, you know, the younger you are, the more of a sponge you are. So one of the sources of confidence for all of us is modeling seen other people, you know, do what they're doing. And then we kind of mimic or mirror what they're doing. So if a parent is acting, you know, calm, confident, playful, having fun in in the sport, or, you know, when they talk about sports, it's more likely we're gonna pick up on that, but I had a great story. My wife and I, we have a 10 year old daughter, and when she was about two and having a temper tantrum, which we all tend to have at that age. And, you know, unfortunately, some of us have that on the course still, but, but she was having a temper tantrum, and, you know, I was kind of just watching her and, you know, just trying to, you know, stay calm and, and, and be there to support her. But my wife walks by and says, Hey, why don't you teach her one of those breathing techniques, you teach your athletes, and it never even crossed my mind, you know, it's like, Whoa, I would have never thought that that would you know, she was too young, in my mind. So anyway, what I did is I just lay down on the floor next door, started belly breathing, you know, put my hand on my belly and just, you know, in and out nice and slow. And my daughter looked over at me and started doing the same thing. And then all of a sudden, she started laughing and smiling and the temper tantrum was over. And then what I would notice is when she would get frustrated, when you know, she's playing with a toy, and something wasn't working, she would lay down and do the belly breathing herself. So I think those, you know, kind of fundamental rudimentary skills, we can practice as young as one or two years old, you know, kind of in a watered down fun, playful way. And that's why I like, you know, breathing and body language and those things, we could practice those at a really young age.
Douglas Maida:Right. So it's, it's basically learning to walk and then by the time you get to an older age, and more mentally developed, you can be into the running stage?
Jim Afremow:Yes, you can be a little more sophisticated with it. And, and, you know, practice it for maybe a little bit longer. You know, obviously, when some, you know, real young kid isn't going to sit, do 20 minutes of meditation, but but they can do a minute of, you know, kind of thinking about their breath and focusing on, you know, the inhale and the exhale and seeing how that feels. And you know, what was that like for them?
Douglas Maida:In your book, you also mentioned the term personal responsibility. So, when we chat about that, I mean, what does it mean, particularly in the context of a junior player, in terms of what does personal responsibility mean, and in the terms of learning how to be more mentally prepared, and to improve their level of performance?
Jim Afremow:Well, one thing that I think that's important for all of us to learn and to realize and learn and accept is that no one is going to take us to that promised land, we have to do it ourselves. And so whatever our goals and dreams are, we want as you know, a circle of excellence around us, we want as much support as we can, I'm always, you know, recommending performers, you know, any resources that are available available to you take advantage of it. So you know, whether strength and conditioning coaches, whether, you know, sports, nutritionist, sports, psychologist, family, friends, coaches, obviously, take advantage of all these resources, but think of yourself as sort of the President of your of your performance. And, you know, how good do you want to be? How badly do you want it? And what do you need to do each day to get one step closer to those dream goals. And so, one of the things that I like to talk with all athletes about is the idea of, you know, tell me what your dreams and goals are. But you know, as important or maybe even more important, who do you want to be? What are your values and so we kind of create this hierarchy of values, you know, is competitiveness a value to you is excellence, a value to you, is mindfulness of value to you. So, start thinking about what's important discipline, hard work, those kinds of things. That should be something that should be, you know, kind of first and foremost in your mind each day of, you know, kind of like, you know, That's those on your eyelids. And that's your roadmap for who you want to be and how you want to go about your business. Because when you think about goals, they're outside of our control. Whereas values are things that we could live daily and breathe life into them each day. So one exercise I'd give for anyone listening today is write down who you want to be, you know, make a deal of who you want to be as a person as a performer. And then look at ways to make sure that you're breathing life into each of those values. That's going to really, really help you to almost set the stage for you to really rocket up there to you know, your best performances.
Douglas Maida:Right. Okay. You mentioned about having a circle of support or a team environment. I mean, we're really noticing that a lot more particularly in individual sports, like tennis, and golf. You talk about Jordan Spieth, for example, a few years back when he had that incredible season, he was thanking his team, and it was a "WE" type of. . . description of everybody around him, you know, himself and his caddy, Michael Geller, and how important nowadays, I mean, you've touched a fair bit on that already. But at a younger age like this, is it really important that the parents and the junior players, the children start to think about putting together a team environment?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, I mean, I think we want every edge we can get. And so I think that, you know, at first, we might balk at that idea, and think, Oh, that's a lot of pressure and stress, and it's too professional, but I would just look at it as you know, it doesn't have to be uptight, you know, it could be it could be casual, it could be playful, it could be fun. You know, it's just like, you know, a child having, you know, a tutor, or, you know, for math, it's not like, -- "Oh my God, why are they doing that? They're never going to be a mathematician," -- you know, it's like, well, no. They're learning how to learn, they're learning how to do things. They're getting extra support. And so as long as it's kind of, you know, not shoved on them. Sometimes I think, you know, I like the same, you know, it's okay to push your kids just don't shove them. I think there's some times you know, where it's like, you know, let's, let's provide the best resources we can. Now having said that, though, kids, really, you know, have an idea that what a mom and dad really want here. And if it's really to, you know, bring out the best that could possibly be, that's one thing, if it's, well, the reason we're doing this is because you better get a scholarship, or you better make the tour or, you know, they're better be straight, you know, they're strings attached to it, then that's when I think it could all you know, kind of blow up on everyone. And that would be something that would be super contra-indicated. But if it's more about, Hey, these are some extra resources, if you're really serious about, you know, seeing how good you can be at this, you know, let's make sure that you have some, you know, special people special skills that can help you with those goals.
Douglas Maida:Right. And there's a lesson in there, too, that you've just mentioned about the parents, it's okay to push, don't shove and coming back to the fact that expectations need to be realistic. And those expectations should be more around your child learning how to play their best or perform at their best rather than having an end goal down the road that they have to be tour winners or the next Tiger Woods or the next so and so.
Jim Afremow:Yep, absolutely. In my you know, counseling and sports psychology work, I'll ask, you know, younger athletes sometimes or even college student athletes, you know, hey, what does mom and dad think about, you know, your gymnastics or your golf game? Or, and, and the immediate response is always, oh, they just want me to have fun. And then I'll say, Well, how do they really feel? And they'll say, Well, they're, you know, they're expecting me to get a scholarship or, you know, they think I should really win this or win that event. And, and, and, you know, again, it's, it's not beating up on parents here. Because, you know, again, I'm a parent as well, you want the best for your kid, and you want to do everything you can for your kid, it's just sometimes helping isn't always helpful. And so sometimes parents, if they're helping in the wrong way, could actually do more harm than good. And so you want to be, you know, I like the analogy of kind of a rowboat, you know, you want to be in the boat with your kid. And you want to be rowing in the dir ... in the same direction at the same speed. But you got to make sure that the direction you're going is where the kid wants to go, not where you want them to go.
Douglas Maida:Yeah, okay. What do you say about the thoughts about say, for example, the parent who wants to coach their child, I mean, at the young young levels, that tend to be more of a more common thing as children are starting to explore themselves, and explore their athleticism and develop some athletic skills and whatnot. But is there a point that you think that comes where the parent and the child need to have a reassessment as to how much fuurther the child can go with the parent being a coach like that, and that the parents have to come to terms with understanding a role change for themselves?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, that could be pretty tricky, right? I mean, on the one hand, I think sometimes what parents will do in That situation is if they're coaching their own child is they'll be extra tough on their kid, because they don't want anyone else, you know, especially if it's a team sport to think that their kid is getting an advantage. So it'll be too tough on the kid, which isn't helpful. Or maybe they will provide a lot of extra, you know, advantages for their son or daughter, which again, might separate that player from their teammates and, and lead them down the wrong path in terms of expectations in terms of how they should be treated. I think it takes a lot of, you know, self understanding, and, and, and being very thoughtful about how to approach those kinds of situations where it's like, okay, when I'm here, I'm dad, when I'm here, I'm coach, but I love you no matter what, and, you know, we're going to have to keep this dialogue going, you know, in terms of feedback, you know, in terms of, you know, how's this for you? And is this something that you want? I think if it's handled really well, then it can be a beautiful thing
Douglas Maida:You mentioned about getting into an area of consistent performance and whatnot. I mean, we've heard a lot of the term "being in the zone", particularly with professional athletes, you know, who are on a streak of some sort, whether it be consecutive games hitting streak, or, you know, hockey with a goal scoring streak, or golf with wins, or, you know, how many birdies have they been able to get on -- Get on the birdie train, how many were they able to record or things of that nature? So can you explain for us a little bit about the term "the zone"? Because I think it's kind of implied, but not really discussed much as to what does it mean to be in the zone? And and I think it's kind of something that is measured by results, as opposed to? What makes it up? Does that make sense?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, a lot of times, you know, we might really, you know, play well, or win a game, and we're not in the zone, we just were better that day. But we're fighting ourselves on the inside. Whereas other times, everything clicks. And and the zone to me is when, you know, our flow state is that optimal level of human functioning, where it's almost like there's, this "is this" you're not separate from the performance, you are the performance. And instead of like, you're trying to give a performance, it almost feels like the performance is giving you you're almost just observing it as it's happening. And it's a wonderful experience, you know, time seems to slow down or speed up, depending on you know, what is indicated, you're having a lot of fun while you're doing it, it's not silly, or goofing off fun, it's, you know, more intense and, and fun with a purpose. And you're, you know, you're really 100% focused on what's happening right here right now. So the zone is one of those things that the athletes that I've worked with, they will say, you know, the better ones that I've worked with, will say, you know, five 10% of the time they're in the zone, the other 80, 90, 95% of the time, what we're really doing is just trying to hang in there, you know, and adjust and, and, and compensate and, and, you know, find a way to get the job done. And so it's kind of like, okay, I got my B or C game, you know, let's try to get 100% out of my B or C game and see if that's good enough today. But yeah, the zone is a lot of fun. I think we've all had that, where it's almost like, you know, the club feels like an extension of us. And, and, you know, the targets just seems like right there. And, and, and the swing almost happens on its own and, and what a great experience. But we can't necessarily force it, you know, the more actively you try to get in there, the more you kind of pop yourself out of it. So when you're in there, just ride it out for as long as you can. And when you're not in there yet, you know, that's where routines and a lot of the mental game skills and strategies are designed to help bring us a little bit closer to being in the zone, or at least create the stage for us to get in there more often.
Douglas Maida:And is that because we get into things like our pre shot routine and thinking about exactly what we have to do at this particular point in time and not getting ahead of ourselves? Or, as we've talked about already about being stuck in the past about a bad result?
Jim Afremow:Absolutely. So the for the zone, you know, that's experienced as, okay, you know, I'm just thinking about my breathing, I'm looking at my target, I stepped over the ball, I allow the swing to happen. And I enjoy watching my ball fly right at my target. Whereas, you know, you know, kind of the opposite mindset is, man, you know, if I miss this shot, it's going to be embarrassing, you know, like, or I'm going to ruin my score. This was an easy birdie hole. And now I'm going to double bogey it and, you know, we're thinking, Wait, we're overthinking. We're over trying. You know, we're just not in the moment. We're not enjoying the moment. We're either way in the future way in the past, or we're thinking about They kind of impression management, how am I looking? You know, what do people think I'm a good player? Do they think I'm a bad player? You know. So that's what I love about the zone or trying to get, you know, set the stage more for the zone is it's just simple. It's just a simple, playful mindset. versus, you know, the average state of mind that we're in where it's just, there's too much garbage in there. And so garbage in garbage out kind of deal.
Douglas Maida:Yeah. Let me ask you about that. You mentioned about how do I look and things of that nature. I mean, there is a sort of stream of thought out there that if I look good, I'll play good, or I'm more likely to play good. If I look good. I mean, is that a real concept, I mean, in terms of the confidence that you start to develop yourself, or the self belief?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, I think I like to say that if you look good, you'll feel good. And if you feel good, you'll play good. And then and then you'll get paid good. But I look at that, you know, if I look good, it's more about how you feel about how you look versus thinking about how others are, you know, looking at you, and what they're thinking. So to me, it's just looking good just means that you you're comfortable in your own skin, you're, you know, you just like your posture, you like the way you're dressed, you're just kind of enjoying who you are. And then feeling really good about yourself and your game and the preparation that you put in and, and then just enjoying, you know, playing the game one good shot in a row until you run out of shots. But that's a lot different than impression management, which is, you know, not trying not to embarrass yourself or trying to impress others that are watching. And if you're doing that, then you're really playing two different games, you're playing golf, and then you're playing golf, golf reputation or something, there's just a totally different game. So you got to pick one or the other. And so, but if you it's, it's, you know, again, it's it's it's paradoxical, but the less you think about other people watching it, the more they're going to probably be impressed because you're going to probably play better,
Douglas Maida:Right. Yeah, I could see that. A couple of minutes ago, we were chatting a little bit about self awareness as being an important aspect of it. How important is it to an athlete, even if it's a junior player, and particularly if it's a junior player, like, because I mean, the amount of self awareness that a junior player tends to bring to things is going to be wide discrepancies between individuals, even of the same age, I guess, how important is it for a child or a junior player to have a certain level of self awareness in terms of being able to perform mentally and prepare mentally?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, so self awareness is the key to change. And for all of us, and one of the things that we could do as friends or you know, family, or coaches is ask better questions of our, you know, junior athletes, instead of Hey, What score did you shoot? Or did you win? Is what did you learn? Or, you know, what, what was the challenge that you overcame out there? Or what would you do different on that last hole? And so, or, you know, when you're playing your best, what are you thinking and feeling and doing versus maybe when you haven't played your best? And so asking, answering those types of questions really gets us thinking, and then even journaling the power of the pen writing those down. Okay, you know, here's what I did well, today, and it could even be just a few minutes per Junior golfer, what are two or three things I did well, today that I want to keep doing? What are two or three things that, you know, I can do better that I'll do different next time that will help me to be a better golfer. And then I always like to kind of the question of always thinking that in every round of golf, you play for any of us, there's always some lesson in there, some some little kind of like, you know, gold in the mud that we want to make sure that we find and so always thinking what was the lesson today, and it might have, you know, sometimes the lesson might be, be more patient out there, stop trying to force things, you know, trust your talent. Other times, it might be, you know, be kind to yourself, you know, after after a rough patch of holes or or, you know, poor shot, you know, being a better coach to yourself in those moments. So, think about every round of golf, you play as there's a lesson in there. And the more you can find those lessons, write down those lessons, and you're going to be a better player. Otherwise, you're just an older player. The next time you play, you're not wiser, you're just older.
Douglas Maida:Speaking of older players, Let's chat a little bit about the recreational player, like we mentioned at the top of this segment where we're going into Springtime and what can we do as recreational players to start preparing ourselves mentally, in terms of having a good season or wanting to have a good season this year?
Jim Afremow:I love that Douglas because there's so many fun things that we can do. You know, one idea is to create a you know, sort of a dream golf board and where you project you know, what do I want to do this year in golf, you know, what courses do I want to play? How do I want to play? Who are my role models in the game, you know, maybe my favorite quotes or mental tips, put that on a board, you know, create this little collage of images and pictures and quotes that get you excited about the season and conserve as you know, kind of, you know, this kind of external source of support for yourself that when you see that it gets you pumped up. And in a good frame of mind, I think another idea is, you know, start practicing some of these mental skills now. So when you're driving focus on just driving instead of the tendency to check out your phone at every stoplight, you know, just be more in the moment when you're eating, just taste your food. So practice mindfulness or even meditation, practice visualization, spend a few minutes, you know, every day or every other day picturing yourself playing some of your favorite golf holes, or your home course. See yourself birdieing some of those holes. I think that really helps you, when you get back out there and go, Man, it feels like I haven't been gone from the game as long as I thought I had been so So visualize visualizations important. listening to podcasts, such as yours to kind of keep you fresh in terms of the mental game, even when we have to leave the game physically, because of the weather, we don't have to leave the game mentally. And so that's part of what I'm talking about is find different ways to stay in the game mentally. And then when you're back out there, it's almost like getting back on the horse again, and it'll be a lot easier than you thought, then you think it would be
Douglas Maida:Right. And could preparing yourself mentally for this, you know, spring approaches, could that even focus on things like what you're going to practice on and focus on practicing and what what skills you want to enhance a little bit better, or things of that nature?
Jim Afremow:Absolutely. And look for opportunities to you know, get a little putting in on the carpet, and you know, and start thinking about a practice plan. Most of us tend to just go out there and just start machine gunning balls will go in and on the driving range instead of thinking, Okay, how do I want to break up my practice time so that I could get the most out of that time. And what I would say is most golfers, well just think mechanics the whole time they're practicing. And then you know, they'll tell themselves, okay, now that I'm going to go play, let's not think about mechanics at all, well, what you practice grows, you know, stronger. So you need to also practice time where I'm just going to look at targets, let the ball fly to those targets, and resist the urge to get judgmental or mechanical. So I think it's good to end every practice with just more of that trusting reactive mindset. And that will help you to kind of prepare to think that way when you do actually play.
Douglas Maida:Yeah, yeah, I could see that being very important. We're coming close to the end of our segment. Jim, before we get there, and our wrap up, I wanted to ask you, how important is it for recreational player and perhaps for any player, you know, recreational players, we tend to have a lot more variance in our game, from good to bad, at from shot to shot, how important is it for us to say, recognize our wins and celebrate our, our wins as recreational players?
Jim Afremow:I love that Douglas, I think you you really hit the nail on the head there is we want to celebrate what we want to see happen more often. And most of us have a lot of energy and emotion around the bad shots or the poor shots. And you know, I can't believe I did that we get angry, we get frustrated. And then you know, we really, you know, either ruin our moment, or, you know, really create a edge that memory in our mind that we that we don't want. And so let's do the opposite this year, let's make you know, let's let's try to love every shot we hit this year, especially the good ones and really say that was like me to do it. That was you know, that's what I do. That's, that's who I am. And so make it part of your identity when you hit a good shot, and put some emotion behind it. You know, obviously, you know, you don't want to go too high with that, because you still have some more play to do, but give yourself credit where credit's due. Whereas when you don't hit a great shot, you know, almost Hey, you know, just needs a small correction or a little adjustment that wasn't like me. So kind of almost distance yourself from it take the emotion and the energy out of it, I think is really important. But yeah, most golfers tend to before they play, they tend to almost set themselves up for failure by saying Oh, my back hurts I haven't played in a while they're thinking of all the bad things that can happen. And then when they do hit a bad shot, I knew that was going to happen. So but it, but in a self defeating way instead of like, okay, even the best in the world to have trouble sometimes or a lot of the times. Let's handle this like a champion and let's champion myself out of this situation where I could still finish the hole or still finished the round. on a high note.
Douglas Maida:You mentioned them saying yeah, my back's not hurting. Or my back's not doing too well so but is that not at the same time a way of allowing yourself to escape the pressure and say you know what, I should just go into this and play because I can go into with no expectation and and if I hit a bad shot, I hit a bad shot. So
Jim Afremow:what Yeah, I mean, I do think When we say it out loud, what we're doing is we're trying to save a little bit of face. And again, that goes back to the impression, impression management, we want everyone around us, you know, we're almost setting it up. So if I don't play well, then my friends or, you know, my, my Foursome, they'll know that I'm a better golfer than this. And, and again, that just shows me that we're worried too much about what they think instead of what we're trying to deliver out there on the course. So, but I agree with you, too, it's, you know, it's kind of like when you when you show up with the course, you know, let's focus less on expectations and more on targets.
Douglas Maida:How about some words of wisdom for any junior players, or parents out there that may be contemplating mental-- introducing their players, their junior players to mental performance?
Jim Afremow:Yeah, I would say for parents and junior players is, instead of looking at the mental game, as an add on to what you're already doing, look at it as the core of what you should be doing. Again, you know, the mental game is your game, the body is just what you use to, you know, to hit the ball or to make the putt. And so, the mental game is something that will help you on the course, but also in the classroom, and all you know, and for your whole life. And so, just like we were talking about earlier, you know, kind of the best ways to, you know, I think the best golf tip ever is pick up the game early on instead of later on in life. Because you know, you're going to learn faster at a younger age. And so if you could start working on the mental game, and again, not in a stressful, you know, overly dramatic kind of way, but just where you start playing around with visualization, and self talk, and routines, and all these good things, you're going to pick it up faster, you're going to get more out of it, and it's going to serve you well in everything that you do.
Douglas Maida:Right, Jim, so if somebody's interested in learning more about mental performance, and how to start familiarizing themselves with it, any suggestions on what they might be able to do? Or can they contact you, or would be picking up one of the books be a great way of starting the self exploration into mental performance?
Jim Afremow:Absolutely, I think books, there's, there's a lot of great resources out there. So books, definitely. And then also, too, in terms of just the work, there's a lot of good sports psychologist or mental coaches out there and, and so I'm on online, I'm on Twitter at"@goldmedal mind". And, and I love working again, with the younger athletes, because, you know, really sets them up for the next you know, 3040 50 years of their life in anything that they do. But and then I love sharing some stories, not necessarily the names, but stories about, you know, the pro athletes and the gold knows that I've been fortunate to work with, you know, kind of how they approached the mental game and and how these younger athletes could start learning it now.
Douglas Maida:If anybody wanted to contact you, is that something they could do?
Jim Afremow:Absolutely. Absolutely. So through Twitter, www.goldmedalmind.net is my website. And then on Instagram, GMF remote.
Douglas Maida:Okay. All right. Well, I appreciate that. Jim, that was a fantastic. I know, we could probably go on a little bit longer here. It's a interesting topic. And it's one that's grown in, in prominence over the last several years. So perhaps in future, we can invite you back if you'd be willing to join us again.
Jim Afremow:I would love that, Douglas. Great questions. Great topic. Thanks for having me on. And, and I do think that mindset is the final frontier. So let's all let's all go boldly toward that final frontier.
Douglas Maida:We're hopefully the goal is to have more people go in that direction.
Jim Afremow:Exactly.
Douglas Maida:All right. Well, thank you so much, Jim. Appreciate it. And great to have you on the show.
Jim Afremow:Thanks so much. Okay. Bye. Bye.
Douglas Maida:All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, that concludes our show for today. Thank you for staying with us. And we look forward to chatting with you again or coming to you again in the very near future with our next episode. So thank you very much, and have a great day. And remember when you're out there playing. Let's try and keep that golf ball on the short grass. Take care.
Amy (Studio):You have been listening to our podcast show. We're talking golf, produced by the world of golf. This episode was recorded on Tuesday, January 18 2022. If you have an idea for a future show, please send us an email to: info@worldofgolf.org-- Please include podcast show in the subject line. This show is the copyright of the world of golf. Thank you for joining us