Business of Endurance

Part 1: Season 7 Wrap Up

• Charlie Reading • Season 7 • Episode 11

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Hosts Charlie Redding and Claire Fudge wrap up the seventh season of The Business of Endurance. They reflect on a successful season of powerful conversations, highlighting 4 key guests:

  • Chloe & Jeff Smith
  • Alex Hutchinson
  • Matt Fitzgerald
  • Heather Jackson

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Speaker 2:

I'm Charlie Redding and I'm Claire Fudge welcome to the business of endurance.

Speaker 1:

Wow, the end of another season of the business of endurance podcast, season seven. We've had incredible guests, some inspirations, educ, phenomenal stories, phenomenal athletes. It's been like drinking from a fire hydrant the amount of ideas and inspiration we've received. And we obviously kicked off the season with a really inspirational episode with Jeff and Chloe Smith, who have the Big Moose Charity, big Moose Cafe. What did you make of that interview, claire?

Speaker 2:

Talking about inspiration, I think it was a great one to kick off the new season with, wasn't it? Because I think having daughter and dad to hear their story together, that journey of climbing and the journey of walking, I think that was fantastic. And what they are doing to support mental health in their local area in Cardiff, I think is absolutely amazing, and I don't know if you remember some of the statistics of how many lives they've saved.

Speaker 1:

It was over 50. I agree it was brilliant what they're doing. I love the way they brought it into the community. They've given the cafe Jeff does incredible challenges, whether it's climbing Everest or other things. Having lost a brother-in-law to suicide in Wales, actually that story and what they're doing and how they're helping people touched me. As a result, we made them the charity sponsor of the season. Obviously, they're trying to raise more money to help more people struggling with mental health issues. So let's dive into a little snippet from that episode.

Speaker 3:

I played ice hockey professionally I think I went pro at 21. And my defenseman when I was playing hockey was a guy called Gary Moose Cloonan. He was named Moose because he was a gargantuan-sized guy and he and I were great friends and I was best man at his wedding and we just had lots of fun together growing up and playing hockey together. But unfortunately in 2007, we lost him to cancer. So it was a massive loss and he was the first person that I'd been close to that had actually passed in my life. So it was quite an awful time for me and everything that we've done.

Speaker 3:

We've come up with the charity as you mentioned, the coffee shop and it's about leaving a legacy for him and, rather than having it as a half empty glass and losing my friend, using it as an inspiration to actually do some cool work and give him a memory, and I often bring his family and talk to his widow and she's very proud of what we've done in his name. So it's a legacy. Although he's gone, he's never forgotten and we keep on referring back to him and hopefully shining a light on the inspiration that he's gone. He's never forgotten and we keep on referring back to him and hopefully he's shining a light on the inspiration that he's provided both of us with to actually create the charity that we're with now. Big Moose.

Speaker 1:

Coffee Company in particular. This isn't just a cafe, it's a community hub aimed at supporting people in many different ways. Can you explain what it's all about, explain the business model and explain what sort of impact you're hoping it's going to have, or it is happening having, on the community?

Speaker 5:

back in 2014. Um, we were going down to a soup kitchen and it was during the christmas period, where there was a lot of commercialism, a lot of money being spent, and dad and I were just a bit like we were done with the pressure of christmas and we just wanted to go back to basics and just do something to give back really. So we went, started going down to the soup kitchen and met a lot of the homeless community and very quickly got to know a lot of them, had a lot of conversations and we were taking down food and drink. Then we engaged with some local restaurants and we were taking down some like cottage pie and we had a pizza truck come down and we were just doing as much good stuff as we could to support this soup kitchen. Then we engaged with some local shops, like Cotswold Outdoors, david Lloyd got involved and they were all donating warm clothes and bedding and it was starting to build a little bit and we basically created this Facebook group called Big Moves and we try to encourage people to live happier, healthier and kinder lives. So the soup kitchen was where it all began and then every month we were driving home and every month we were saying somebody needs to do something about this. People were really struggling with their mental health. That became a running theme across every person in the homeless community that we met and we just kept saying it. And then one month, dad was like we just need to do something about this.

Speaker 5:

And at the time my sister had come back from Paris and was working in London at a place called the house of St Barnabas, which was in Soho yes, a four-story beautiful building in Soho where downstairs was a beautiful sort of private members club and then on the fourth floor they had this training facility where they worked with people who'd experienced homelessness, struggled with their mental health, and they put them through a city and guild qualification in hospitality and then once they finished that I think it was a 12-week course they parachuted them into the club. They worked behind the bar, they were waiters, waitresses, reception, just basically working in that industry and just giving them a hand up instead of a handout. So we were really inspired by this case where my sister was working and dad was like we should do something in Cardiff and it was probably one of his first really big ideas. We came up with the idea of Copshop.

Speaker 5:

The idea at the time was that we would create a non-profit where we could employ and train people who'd experienced homelessness, struggled with their mental health, but on the path to suicide, young people that needed just somewhere to give them a chance and just basically using the business as a force for good. Neither of us had hospitality experience. Really, my claim to fame was I worked at Wagamama. You've never worked in hospitality, have you, ever, ever? And it became really clear that other people wanted to help as well, because we had loads of volunteers coming down to this soup kitchen and in the end, there was more of us volunteering no-transcript and in the end, there was more of us volunteering than there was at the homeless community.

Speaker 1:

Alex Hutchinson wrote Endure, one of my favourite books of all time. I really loved this episode. I really loved interviewing Alex. What did you make of this episode, Claire?

Speaker 2:

I was super excited to be a part of that interview because I've read his books from a science-backed evidence base. I love the way that he writes. The pieces of information in that episode were fantastic, from talking about the sub-two-hour marathon and the science that sits behind that to really how do we use kind of our mental resilience in business? What about for you? Because I know Endure was a book that you really loved. Was there a particular bit of that interview that you were really intrigued by?

Speaker 1:

A few things really stand out. Obviously, the sub two hour piece was brilliant. I love talking about the mindset of endurance, the central governor theory and the power of the mind to push past challenges. We have much more potential than we realize if we can harness that by understanding a little bit more. That's amazing. But I love the conversation with him about being a writer, but also with AI and how AI is a really useful tool, but don't let it take away the fun of creative rabbit holes. It was a brilliant episode and I loved talking to. Let's dive into a snippet of the interview with Alex Hutchinson.

Speaker 6:

Ellie Kipchoge in the Sub2 Project. That's the kind of story that was the backbone of my book. In 2014, runner's World commissioned me to do a big, huge analysis of this idea of could anyone run a Sub2 hour marathon, because there was starting to be some talk that we were getting close, talked to a lot of experts, crunched a lot of data and wrote a big 10-page piece, which concluded with my prediction that, yes, we would see a sub-two-hour marathon sometime around 2075, was my guess. So that was 2014. Two years later, I got a call from my editor at Runner's World saying Nike has a big project. They want to break two hours for the marathon sometime in the next few months, and they've offered us a chance to go behind the scenes, follow their progress and write about it. Would you like to be the reporter? Would you like to fly out to Nike headquarters, meet the runners? And I just thought what is going on? This is ludicrous. I've spent a lot of time establishing that sub two, for now at least, well beyond team and capabilities. The world record was just under 203 at the time, and three minutes is a long way for an elite marathoner, and so that was my introduction into what became known as the Breaking 2 project, where Nike spent, I would estimate, tens of millions of dollars trying to optimize everything about how fast a human can run a marathon, including selecting three of what they thought were the greatest runners in the world at the time, one of whom turned out to be Elliot Kipchoge. He's won the last two Olympic marathons. He's pretty widely acknowledged as the greatest marathoner who's ever lived, but still running sub two was a tall ask. But over the course of about six months, nike sort of doled out the various things they were going to do holding the race at a Formula One track in Italy and optimizing nutrition and pacing, having this rotating cast of an arrowhead formation of pacemakers. Most importantly, introducing a brand new shoe technology with carbon fiber plates in it. That has turned out to be, I think, the big difference maker.

Speaker 6:

Anyway, we got to the day 2017, may 6th, 2017, the anniversary of Roger Bannister's first sub-4 minute mile and Kipchoge didn't do it. But he came unbelievably close. He ran two hours flat in 35 seconds. He was on pace until the sort of closing miles and he didn't do it. But I think he and actually that should save us a minute or two, and the shoes should save us some time. You do the calculations and say actually we should be able to do it, but to see someone do it was really surprising. And Kipchoge then went on to break two hours a year and a half later in Vienna at another staged race which isn't world record eligible, because he had pacemakers who were not running the whole race or weren't starting at the beginning.

Speaker 6:

But all of this became sort of a metaphor for the idea of limits. We establish what we think is possible and it's very hard to shake that belief that one thing is possible and another thing is not possible and there's a boundary between the two. Raking 2, I think, really reshaped a lot of people's perceptions about what was possible, and so I think when we saw that subsequent to these staged exhibition attempts is that people became much more aggressive in marathons and the world record is now about 30 seconds away from the two-hour barrier under record conditions. And yeah, it's about the interplay between mental and physical limits and that was a really fun process to watch.

Speaker 1:

I think it's just a fascinating subject and actually I had heard the Roger Bannister story the myth story at a motivational event years ago and I was like, oh, that's incredible, 400 people did it within 12 months of him doing the four minute mile. And then I listened to your book. I was like, oh, that was rubbish. I think it took 20 years to get to the 300, didn't it? I think that's something like that. But equally, we did see that happen very soon after Roger Bannister did the four minute mile and we saw it again and again. How soon do you think it will be until we actually see a qualifying sub two marathon time?

Speaker 6:

That's a sad question because Kelvin Kipton is the current world record holder and in Chicago last year where he set the world record, he looked like he had more in the tank. That was watching Chicago marathon last year was the first time I have sat there and thought I think we're ready. I think there's going to be a sub two hour marathon, if not from Kelvin Kipton, then from someone else, because clearly the question after after breaking two, the question was what is Elliot Kipchoge? Sort of generational talent, a sort of Bob Beeman of the marathon, and it's going to take 40 years before anyone matches his times? Or is, you know, the product of the current generation of training, knowledge, shoe technology, other forms of race optimization? And so other runners are going to come along and keep upping the ante and Kelvin Kipton showed pretty quickly.

Speaker 6:

It's like actually it wasn't just Kipchoge. The marathoners are getting faster. Kipton was killed in a car accident a few months ago, which is super sad. He was 24 years old, tall appearances, just getting started. So now the question goes back were Kipchoge and Kipton two unique generational talents who happened to show up around the same time, or is there going to be someone else who takes that mantle?

Speaker 1:

The next episode of season seven was the interview with prolific author and runner, Matt Fitzgerald. I love this interview. Such a great guy with so much wisdom. Claire, what did you make of the interview with Matt Fitzgerald?

Speaker 2:

Another great episode and, again for me, the science that sits behind. You know how he talks, how he writes, so for me, of course, the nutrition aspect is coming out here in terms of, from some of the books that he's written, the real, simple, practical, science-backed, effective strategies for athletes and really being able to teach in a way that is you're able to implement it. So he was talking about diet quality and actually just thinking about diet in a really practical way and not about all these sort of different diet cults, so to speak. So that for me was great. What about for you?

Speaker 1:

I loved this interview. I loved his book. Iron War again is one of my favourite books of all time and, having interviewed Mark Allen, he's actually not a fan of Iron War because he doesn't see it as a true reflection of what happened. But for those of us on the outside it felt similar to what Mark told when we had him on. And for those that haven't listened to the Mark Allen episodes, you must go back and listen to that. It's phenomenal.

Speaker 1:

So I love talking about Iron War, but the reason that I loved it so much was because, as Matt said, it's just. It doesn't feel like there is another sporting occasion like that. That's the only book of that nature. He's written out of 35 because he can't find another story as good. That's why it's such a brilliant book. So I loved that as good. That's why it's such a brilliant book. So I love that. I love the nutrition stuff and I loved how he's. You know, only did he get to be trained like a pro, even if he runs slow, which is the name of the book, but also then the fact that he's created his own run camps off the back of that. I'm really excited about trying to get involved in one of those at some point. I know we both said it should be one of the bucket list. But let's dive into into a little snippet from Matt Fitzgerald talking about Ironwall.

Speaker 7:

I feel fortunate. I was nine years old when I decided I wanted to be a writer. When I grew up, my father is a writer and he wrote professionally. So when I was a kid I knew that was actually an option for me. I fell in love with it. It was really one of the only things I was any good at. And then I fell in love with running two years later, at age 11.

Speaker 7:

I did not actually expect to marry them the way I did and I realized, wait a minute, like why can't I just put the very best of my creativity into writing about sports? I was several years down this road. I'm slow on the uptake sometimes, but it was really when I sat down to write Iron War when I realized you know what I can write something great about sports. I don't have to hold back the best of myself for the stuff I do at night. I can put everything I've got and pretend this is the last thing I'll ever write. I just exhaust myself. And then that worked out really well. Iron War, I think, was better than anything I had written previously and it gave me sort of a formula to move forward with. It feels like Iron War.

Speaker 1:

I mean of the books I've read, which is, like I say, a few of the 35, it feels like Iron War is a different book, though, because it's about one single story, isn't it? Why haven't you gone back to that kind of format of the book?

Speaker 7:

One reason is that story only happened once. I just had such great material to work with. The rest of it was just research right, I just had to learn everything I possibly could about the story and the backstory and just tell it. But once I told it, I told it. But I have done similar things since then. For example, I wrote my book about my fake pro runner experience, running the Dream. That is one cohesive story. For that one it's not about a legendary talented athlete, it's about a middle-aged average athlete me. But it was narratively similar. And then I did also I ghost wrote a book for James Lawrence the Iron Cowboy about when he traveled all around the US doing distance triathlon in every state 50 days in a row. And so that was a similar kind of story. My name does not appear on the cover of that book, but I wrote it. Part of what makes Iron War special is that it's a completely unique story.

Speaker 2:

I'm thinking also about racing weight. That I've certainly read and, with my background working in performance nutrition as well, what drove you, I guess, to write that book number one and number two the main problem that you see in athletes with trying to reach this kind of race faith.

Speaker 7:

I probably couldn't even get that book published today, just because the way the public discourse around body weight and body image has changed. So I started writing that book in 2009. And that was like the very peak of like diet hysteria. Like it was everywhere, like everyone was obsessed and people were making loads of money off of diet books like South Beach and Atkins and all this stuff. And what I saw around me was athletes like actually going on the South Beach diet, because we live in the same culture and so athletes are like oh, I think I would be faster if I lost some weight and all my friends are doing South Beach, so I guess I'll do that.

Speaker 7:

It's not that it was necessarily a problem for them to recognize that body weight and body composition do impact performance, but they were really muddled on. All right, is it really performance that you care about or is it looking good naked? Can we tease those things apart? And then, what actual methods are you using? Are you doing what the most successful professionals do? Not the ones who just get to the top and vanish, but the ones who get to the top and stay there because they're healthy?

Speaker 7:

For me, my instinct was always like what is actually working at the highest level of the sport, and for me, that was true of gear and technology, it was true of training, it was true of mindset and it was true of diet and weight management. I don't think we get anywhere by lying to people and saying body weight has no impact on performance and for some people, given like their personal history, they just can't go there. I get that, but that doesn't mean that all of us should be forbidden because it's risky for certain people. So, yeah, I was trying to write a book that, if you're gonna do it, this is the way it's done.

Speaker 1:

Good luck trying to get that one published today the next episode we had on season seven was with the incredible heather jackson. I've been trying to get heather on the podcast because she's an incredible lady. When I first approached her she was just a professional ironman athlete. Now she's retired from Ironman racing and gone into Gravena on Ultra Two sports, not one. What did you make of the Heather Jackson interview, Claire?

Speaker 2:

I was going to pick you up on the two sports. I think, if we go back to the episode, how many sports has she ever done and been really good at? I think it started off with was it ice hockey, soccer? There's something else I'm missing here, because there was definitely something else she did before that and then getting into triathlon like her story of her just actually ending up being quite good very quickly and I think one of the things that comes across is one throwing herself into things and that kind of belief that she can do it. The longevity within sport showed a great depth from where she started moving into Ironman, triathlon and now not just doing gravel but actually doing ultra running as well. So two separate sports that she's extremely good at on a professional basis. So she was inspiring to me. What came across for you in particular?

Speaker 1:

there was a lot from this episode. I loved her story of winning Escape from Alcatraz race. On my bucket list again I I know it's on yours, so I loved that. I love talking to her about pivoting from one sport to the next. My greatest takeaway from that episode was when we asked her the question knowing what she knows now, what would she have done differently in her Ironman training? That concept of the long slow run, like the 30 miles slow run before you do a marathon, was really interesting advice which I want to incorporate into my training. So I really like that. There's just loads. She's an inspirational lady that's achieved a huge amount in ridiculous number of sports. But I think it'd be worth jumping to that snippet of ask where we asked her the question what would she do differently in ironman now that she knows what it takes to be a good ultra runner and gravel athlete?

Speaker 4:

Early in my tri career I was just all over the place in terms of nutrition on race day. I mean, I've been with Herbalife as my nutrition sponsor for almost 15 years now. They've been with me since day one. So I use their electrolyte drink for everything in terms of that.

Speaker 4:

But early on in my career I used to always take in solid foods, just random, like everyone says, oh, don't change anything that you do in training on race day. And so for me when we would stop to refill bottles or at a gas station I would grab like a Snickers or a candy bar or who knows what. And it was just, yeah, not very specific, and I think over my career I dialed that in to try to go mostly liquid calories if I could. So I would load my bottles up higher density to try to get the calories in more liquid or gels and that became my Ironman strategy, just in terms of the ease to digest things. And I think you develop that year after year of what works for you. And obviously the last few years have been that higher carb push, getting that in, and I tried that and I guess, refined it. But to your question, like I haven't it's almost like I've kept the fueling plan I learned in Ironman and what I can tolerate as I've come into these two new sports.

Speaker 1:

I think both Claire and I can relate to the craving of salt. When we were doing an ultramarathon down in Cornwall, I was shoveling down salted peanuts as quicker than anyone could give them, and Claire was on the salt and vinegar crisps, I think.

Speaker 2:

I found a packet of crisps amazing. I've heard you talk actually on another podcast about which was of great interest to me. Actually you mentioned that actually there was a point in your career and I can't remember which coach this was with that you learned really that you needed to eat more in training and actually how that really changed things for you. I see it quite often that people under fuel. Can you tell us a little bit about how actually eating enough or fueling yourself enough really changed your training at that point in time?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think it's funny within my like journey. Again, it was I was coming off of ice hockey primarily early on in my career and I was yeah, I mean, I won't sugarcoat it I was probably 30 pounds heavier than I am today and so it was this like transition of, okay, I went through a phase of maybe eating a little bit less. I was seeing the progress as I lost a little bit of that muscle weight from ice hockey. I certainly didn't need to be the same size I was during ice hockey, so it just, I think, opened my eyes to it and then that and it's just showed the importance of practicing the nutrition in training so that when you get to race day you've done that and your body knows what's coming and your stomach can handle it. So it was that, yeah, starting at one point and progressing and then seeing, okay, this is beneficial and this is going to prep me best for race day.

Speaker 1:

Phenomenal season, amazing guests. Thank you to every one of them. If you haven't listened to any of these episodes but you've caught up on a snippet, just go back, listen to the episode and, while we wait for season eight to come out, go back into the back catalog. We've had some phenomenal interviews with over a hundred episodes of the Business of Endurance podcast. Check those out and look out for season eight shortly, if you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the Business of Endurance podcast. We don't ask for you to pay for us. We don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple. Give us a five star rating because it shows us you care, and if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine, something like inspiring or amazing or something like that, but we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much.

Speaker 1:

I'm Chloe from Big Moose. Charity, we featured in episode one of season seven, made such a great impact on the both of us, we decided to make them our charity sponsor for season seven. Now they really touched me in the sense that I lost my brother-in-law to suicide in Wales and these guys are working their socks off to help prevent situations like that. Claire, why did Geoff and Chloe really make an impact on you?

Speaker 2:

Coming from a background in clinical nutrition and working in mental health, to me also it hit a spot in terms of the charity and how they are building therapy to help support people with mental health difficulties, and they've saved over 50 lives now and already met their first target of a million and their new target, 15 million, that they're trying to get to.

Speaker 1:

It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a huge target they've set themselves, but they're speeding up help that people in desperately in need get, and this help is needed more than ever and I know how problematic mental health issues are in today's world. So if you think you can help Big Moose Charity and they're particularly looking for corporate partners to help them raise that 15 million, if you think you can help them or link them into a company that can help them, the best place to go to is BigMooseCharityco, or you can find them on Instagram as BigMoose Charity, or you can even email Jeff at Jeff at BigMooseco.