Business of Endurance

Part 2: Season 7 Wrap Up

• Charlie Reading • Season 7 • Episode 12

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Hosts Charlie Redding and Claire Fudge wrap up the seventh season of The Business of Endurance. They reflect on a successful season of powerful conversations, highlighting 3 key guests:

  • Lewis Robling
  • Rico Bogan
  • Andrea Henkel Burke

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Speaker 1:

I'm Charlie. Redding and I'm Claire Fudge welcome to the business of endurance. Wow, the end of another season of the business of endurance podcast, season seven. We've had incredible guests, some inspirations, educations, phenomenal stories, phenomenal athletes. They've been like drinking from a fire hydrant the amount of ideas and inspiration we've received. The next two episodes of the Business of Endurance, season 7, were part one and part two, with Lewis Roebling, who came from a professional rugby background and transitioned into ultra running. What did you make of those episodes, claire?

Speaker 2:

We gained so much from that episode it became two episodes. That shows how much information and takeaways there were. The real shining part is his mental health journey. He was a professional rugby player and got support from the Big Moose charity. We highlighted the lack of mental health support in professional sports and I think again that for me is really interesting working particularly with some young performance Olympic potential athletes. Where is this mental health? I think that made me ask questions. For the athletes I'm working with, it was very interesting to see how he was able to transition into ultra running from rugby, but also what he said about the almost kind of like. You know that was therapeutic in nature itself, but was he running from himself as well? What about for you from either the first or the second episode?

Speaker 1:

You're right, it was worth two episodes because there was so much great content. I thought it was really interesting the mental struggles he had on retiring. We only touched on it a little bit and I don't think we delved into it as deeply because he was uneasy talking about it. He doesn't feel like he reached his potential on the rugby field for a number of reasons, but mental health is part of that. And then the mental health challenges of leaving that sport, how the combination of ultra running and big moves really helped him in. I see a lot of people go through retirement and retirement from any job and many of them struggle from a mental health point of view because suddenly they've lost their purpose. The same happens in sportsmen. I know Leon Lloyd, who used to play for England and Leicester Tigers, talks a lot about it. So I thought that was a really interesting conversation and I think let's dive into a snippet of Lewis talking about how Big Moose helped him with his mental health challenges.

Speaker 3:

I proved so many things to myself. I proved that I was capable. Yet when I came back home and I sat at my desk the next day, what I changed? Nothing had changed. I'd run a race like well done, you've completed 125 kilometers. Well, what are you actually done about your life? Nothing, and that I I didn't. I didn't know then what to do with these feelings. I didn't know how to to deal with it. Like I just done this amazing thing, yet I feel even worse about myself. I've just proved I can do these things, yet Nothing's changed. What does that say about me?

Speaker 3:

Um, and so the first time I finished an ultra marathon, I was kind of lost in that period after a race, because I I didn't have the tools to be able to use what I just learned and apply it, and that's where things got a little bit low, to the point where I then needed to reach out for help, and I'm just so grateful to Big Moose. Big Moose, the charity that Jeff Smith and Chloe were there to pick me up, which was then. That was probably the hardest thing. September 2020 was my first experience and I felt like I'd opened my eyes to a new world and I loved it. So, even though it was like, even though it broke me in every single way, I didn't run for eight weeks afterwards. I I knew there and then that I wanted this to be a part of my life because of what I gained from it. And ultimately, after that event, um, I reached out for help with big moose and, and I realized, well, but with that help then helped me reframe how I wanted to use ultra marathons, moving forward, um, I knew my life wasn't in a great state, um, so, with the support of the therapist, graham um, from big moose, I was able to reframe how I saw ultra running and, instead of running away because that's ultimately what I was doing was running. All that time I had no awareness as to why I was doing it, um, but what the therapy helped me do was was gain that self-awareness and realize I've actually I've been running away from these feelings. So how can I use running, something that I love, something that I know that I've always loved and exercise and movement? How can I use it to move towards these challenges? How can I use running as a way to learn more about myself instead of trying to turn down the noise on these voices? Um, so ultimately, 2021 became um a year for me.

Speaker 3:

Um, I had the opportunity to run another um 125k in scotland with ultra x in the may and then I I ran my first 250k race in wales in the august and that was the first time ultra x were doing a race in wales and they asked me to be a part of it because I'm a welshie and whatnot. And that August and that was the first time Ultra X were doing a race in Wales and they asked me to be a part of it because I'm a Welshie and whatnot, and that was, and that was that was a really special race as well. That was kind of the first time in in my career quote-unquote as an ultra runner that I no longer felt the need to prove myself to anyone, which was a key moment in my development as well. It was like I'd finally taken a bit of a ah, okay, I'm good, now I don't need to. I don't feel the need to prove myself to anyone else. So at that point and also what was happening alongside that, with the therapy, with the running, this, this new um mindset towards how it can help me Opportunities were arising in life.

Speaker 3:

Um, were arising in life. Um, I'd got a job working for a different company. I was doing my ultra running qualifications. Um, I ended up selling my coconut ball business because it was no longer serving me and I stopped holding onto it. Um, so lots of change was happening. Outside of running, alongside the running, that was helping me in other ways, um.

Speaker 3:

And then in the 2021, um, I want to say, I was let go from my job. Um, I was there for three months. I was let go, but ultimately that was the catalyst for me to then start my coaching. And the coaching started, went really well, and I was at a point in my life where I felt, you know, I'm ready, I'm strong enough to be able to give back to Big Moose in the way they gave to me, and I wanted to do something special. And it was kind of the start of people doing kind of juggle and challenges.

Speaker 3:

Since then, everyone's doing juggle and challenges. It's amazing, it's a crazy space right now, this world of ultra running. It's really inspiring. But my challenge was and I went to Ultra X because they were there for me as well throughout the whole time and I said to them has anyone ever ran all five of your 250K races before? And they said, no, that's silly, why would anyone want, can I try? So they then agreed to. I explained I was doing it for Big Moose and it was all going to be for charity and I wanted to raise £25,000, which is probably why they agreed to kindly give me the race entries.

Speaker 1:

The next episode of season seven of Business Endurance was with rising star triathlete Rico Bogan. What did you make of that episode, Claire?

Speaker 2:

It was great to interview a much younger athlete. I'm not suggesting all our guests are old, but it was good to interview someone with fresh enthusiasm in the sport, hearing about how in Germany he'd grown up within sport and how that's different from the UK as well. So that was interesting. And I think one of the other areas was around. We've talked quite a lot to guests, haven't we? About sponsorship and actually how difficult that's been, particularly after COVID and that changing landscape of how businesses are working or not working with athletes. So it was really interesting how he's trying to create relationships with businesses that he wants to work with. What came across in particular for you from that interview?

Speaker 1:

I thought for a young guy he just got his head really well screwed on. He was really sensible, focused. I loved where he mentioned about the fact that he could go hang out with his grandparents. He's just a really grounded individual.

Speaker 1:

It's interesting this season feels like we've talked a bit about the US collegiate system, we've talked about the German system and actually it shines a light on how different that is to the UK system and I suspect for elite athletes there is an amazing system there for GB. But I do wonder whether we're missing some massive tricks at a more basic level and a schooling level compared to. Obviously we're just recording this on the back of the paris olympics. Perhaps it isn't as bad as we think. It feels like this conversation highlighted a difference in approaches and I wonder how that plays out. I think rico bogan was a brilliant interview, really switched on athlete. It was interesting chatting about his relationship with q cycles and how his long-term goals are shaping up. So let's hear a little bit of a snippet about rico bogan when he won the ironman world championships or the 70.3 world championships at such a young age I'm the youngest 70.3 ironman world champion, so I started as a young kid in a sports family.

Speaker 4:

So my parents are working but they didn't do sport as a hobby and so they took us on every running competition or triathlon competition in the area around Leipzig. It's great because as a child you have these competitions and can focus on this competition and that's not so easy to do in other competitions. That's very great to get points for the Olympic ranking. We took the decision to go more in the middle stance and winning the world champions title thing. Nobody expected it for me.

Speaker 1:

I didn't expect it too, and it was a really stacked field as well. You beat a lot of the very top names. Tell us a bit more about that win. Tell us what happened. How did you feel before the race, how did you feel during the race and at what point did you think I've got this in the bag? How did that feel?

Speaker 4:

It was a little bit, yeah, 50, 50, 50 chance if I'm responding good on the altitude or not, because it was the first time. But yeah, and also in the age you came, I didn't feel that good at the end last week, although I read that for three weeks in the last week. I was really tired and thought, oh, that's not good, I'm not at my highest level. I came down 11 days before the race and it got better day by day and yeah, then I was there. I think on Wednesday I was in Finland and the last brick session before the race I felt very good. So, there that you're.

Speaker 4:

I was really excited before the race and then I was out of the water in third or fourth place, but on the bike I was all time with the front.

Speaker 4:

We had at the beginning a gap with just three men this is nichelag and matis machia and I was there and we had a gap already and I thought, yeah, here's where I want to be, I, I want to be at the front.

Speaker 4:

And then after 50 or 60 kilometers I thought, yeah, my legs are not that fresh anymore and, yeah, a little bit tired. But yeah, at the end it was a little bit easier and so I got from the bike and third position and then, yeah, my legs were new again, I started to run and instead I I had good cadence and rhythm and there was already my parents was there, the sidelines she had. Yeah, it looks so good. And yeah, after three kilometer I could close the 30 seconds gap and I went in front of the race and, you know, in first place and, yeah, this was really amazing and yeah, the finish line was just goosebumps and, yeah, tears of joy and yeah, this was amazing because, yeah, it was a long way my board career started very early and yeah, everything came down there and yeah, it was unbelievable.

Speaker 2:

Yeah it was absolutely fantastic. I followed you under two cycles actually all day. Yeah, it was fantastic to see you finishing and hear the excitement. So yeah, so absolutely fantastic, win. You've got this background coming from swimming at a young age and then into 70.3 distance. Is there anything in particular that you've changed strategy wise in 70.3 racing that you feel is monumental or really made a difference?

Speaker 4:

yeah, preparation for 70.3 is different to shorter descents. You have to couple, load more. I would say this was something different. And also the nutrition is much more important. And the middle stance, sprinter stance because there's just one hour and you have a bottle on the bike and there you have maybe 30 grams of carbs in the bottle. But if you don't get it in, then it's also not so important. But for middle stance you have to train the nutrition. Then, with the stomach, nothing gets out. Nothing gets out again and so, yeah, this was something new and yeah, with my coach, yeah, we tried to talk about this and trying to train this and and training. So that's. I think that's the most different to the shortest distance and yeah, so I got it very fast with the nutrition, though already in the first race it was okay. And yeah, on the running I have sometimes problems to get carbs in I, me and my coach doing this speed stuff and all the longer stuff, so he makes it very good.

Speaker 1:

You've mentioned your coach a couple of times already and I think actually you share your coach with claire and claire also coached by joe. Given that you're very early in your career, how did you go about picking your coach? What did you look for in a coach? What was it about joe that you felt was a good fit?

Speaker 4:

yeah, for me it's important to have a good relationship to the coach and it was not just what is on the training plan, so I'm asking very many questions or I want to know why we are doing this. So that's very important for me that I can give my. Is it okay if I ask questions? And so that's what I think it's very important in our relationship that he is adjustable.

Speaker 1:

So the next episode of season seven with Andrea Burke, known as Andrea Henkel. What did you make of the interview with Andrea Claire?

Speaker 2:

First of all, it's a new sport that I only watch in the Winter Olympics. So when I say it's a new sport, it's new to me, as in I've never done it. It looks really fast, furious and exciting to do. So it was great to interview an athlete from winter sports, because we often don't have that. So, first of all, that was brilliant. And there was a lot of our questions weren't there in terms of what does training look like? What does a race look like?

Speaker 2:

We learned about the world cup series and the olympics, how important the world cup is to those winter athletes in terms of her consistency and consistently being able to perform at a high level. And we've talked before about different countries. You were talking recently about america and germ Germany and how they bring up athletes in the world of sports, and I think this is another example. Andrea talked about East Berlin and how they all had to do three sports that they all had to do compulsory, so that, to me, is really interesting. Again, there's this culture of doing sports, being involved and, I think, all those things that it teaches you at a young age in terms of what sport teaches you at a young age. So it was fascinating insight and I know, in particular for you, you were really interested by the kind of openness around her answering some questions around doping from other people involved in the Olympics. So what did you think of her responses?

Speaker 1:

It was brilliant. She was willing to have an open conversation about that, because quite often people we interview say I'll talk about anything except doping in sport, few and far between. Obviously, the Sharon Davis episode stands out as somebody that was very keen to speak out about that and the issue around transgender in sport and and actually it's cost Sharon a lot of money over her career because then people run away from her because she's willing to talk about that stuff. And so it was. Yes, I thought that was a really interesting part of Andrea's interview was understanding the impact on the athlete, not just at the time where they're taking drugs, but even if they get away with it, the long-term health impacts of doping in sports. So I thought that was a really interesting part of the conversation.

Speaker 1:

And the other interesting part of the conversation I really enjoyed was the piece around long COVID, because she's obviously developed a program to help people that are suffering from long COVID. But what I loved about it was the sort of balanced approach of that. There was some nutrition, there was some sleep, there was some yoga. This isn't just a training plan for long COVID, is it? This is a training plan for life and health and success and everything else. So I think let's dive into a snippet of the conversation that we had with Andrea around her long COVID treatment.

Speaker 5:

COVID treatment. So we have a program which is a 16 program, like 12 units, and they work people through at first like understanding what's going on in their body, because just this understanding part is already very helpful. We call it in psychoneurology, we call it deep learning, which helps to already understand, be also more likely to do this little exercise because they don't take forever and that's like by purpose, because, again, like some people with long COVID, they cannot do much and then it cannot take an hour a day to use some tools to do so. We do like nervous system alignment with, like feet, breath work, but also eye exercises, connected tissue stretches, like specific stretches to open up the body so that things can flow again and to give again the brain like a safety that feels more, that can like know what's going on in the environment, and then it then it feels safer.

Speaker 5:

It's like people don't want to go out somewhere because it's unsafe. And then it's like the fight and flight reaction and then it's like having tools which calm the system or regulate the system. That's always calming. It's also sometimes regulated. So we do also some mobility work and stretches and put it into like a sequence, like muscle relaxation, using your body, basically to also calm brain and then also diet is a big aspect, like it's using extra stressors for the body and using like really helpful anti-inflammatory foods we have like sorry, I was gonna say can you give me some examples on the nutrition side?

Speaker 1:

I'm guessing that claire was about to ask the same question, because that would be her nature. Um, but what's um? Yeah, so what? What sort of things are you advising people to do on the nutrition, specifically to help them with long COVID?

Speaker 5:

Yeah, we work with what to eat, so basically anti-inflammatory foods, a lot of vegetables and these things and also more of those I sometimes call it vegan with chicken and fish and eggs. This is not specific, but it's like very broad. But we also want to keep it simple. It has to be doable, and when to eat matters, because when we eat constantly it triggers the immune system. We want to try to not eat constantly, but having like eating cranks in between meals. And then also what we hear a lot, what Katie, my business partner, experienced herself. It's like these cravings. And then when we have cravings because of lack of energy, like you really grab something, it's just around the corner. So we help with like having that, so like just taking half an avocado and eat instead like something which doesn't spike the blood sugar. So we like go into this topic. Okay, brilliant, high trend.

Speaker 1:

And before we move on, because I'm just intrigued what results have you seen from this work? How much success are you getting with this and helping people that have been suffering with long COVID?

Speaker 5:

Yeah, so far we had good success. Some feel better like 10 days and then, but then of course it continues. It's just like getting to like like getting like a little bit foundation, in that they're capable of getting to the next step, but then we would go already to like the last step and the foundation is built so kind of like sports, kind of what we do. It like endurance training first, before you put on the next level and we are, the program is pulled together and it's 60 weeks. It's not short but it's we think it's like easy to. It has to be also like easy to do, stick with it and to want to be stick with it and like having like some precise in the front end. It's also more likely to like keep going and it's like simple and easy to put into, like a busy schedule.

Speaker 5:

But we also realized, and people feel better after a while, they're like let go a little bit, this little tool and then they're like comes up and then it's like it's kind of like open mind. I know we want to do this and it's like great, like called it, like managing the symptoms and and also having like an eye work or press real quick. You don't need a tool with it. So like just knowing, also with like self-assessment tools, that people actually find what mobility exercise works best and helps me the most, then can put together their own toolkit that they can take anywhere. And that's for us important and we had for the ones who were the program.

Speaker 5:

Then suddenly everyone got like somehow like out of the world. I was active again and it was really fun to see, and then everyone came back okay, we need to like do this, still do this, and it's in the part of the routine and that's the whole goal, like to have it as a routine to then go from here to here and then other things and splits, use for like even it doesn't have to do anything with long core and that they used to be able to perform better like this. Little things like doing weird eye, foot movements usually don't do just to trigger the brain, to like create more connection. So it's also not just like okay, now I'm good, now I don't have a use for this anymore. No, it's like there's a use for like the next level and the next level I'm just like keeping up if you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the business of endurance podcast.

Speaker 1:

We don't ask you to pay for us. We don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple. Give us a five-star rating because it shows us you care and, if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine, something like inspiring or amazing or something like that, but we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much and Chloe from big moves charity, we featured in episode one of season seven made such a great impact on the both of us, we decided to make them our charity one of season seven made such a great impact on the both of us, we decided to make them our charity sponsor for season seven. Now, they really touched me in the sense that I lost my brother-in-law to suicide in Wales and these guys are working their socks off to help prevent situations like that. Claire, why did Jeff and Chloe really make an impact on you?

Speaker 2:

Coming from a background in clinical nutrition and working in mental health, to me also it hit a spot in terms of the charity and how they are building therapy to help support people with mental health difficulties, and they've saved over 50 lives now and already met their first target of a million and their new target, 15 million, that they're trying to get to.

Speaker 1:

It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a huge target they've set themselves, but they're speeding up help that people in desperately in need get, and this help is needed more than ever and I know how problematic mental health issues are in today's world. So if you think you can help Big Moose Charity and they're particularly looking for corporate partners to help them raise that 15 million, if you think you can help them or link them into a company that can help them, the best place to go to is bigmoosecharityco, or you can find them on Instagram as bigmoosecharity, or you can even email Jeff at jeffatbigmooseco.