Business of Endurance

Part 3: Season 7 Wrap Up

• Season 7 • Episode 13

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Hosts Charlie Redding and Claire Fudge wrap up the seventh season of The Business of Endurance. They reflect on a successful season of powerful conversations, highlighting 2 key guests:

  • Ben Rosario
  • Dean Karnazes

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Speaker 2:

I'm charlie redding and I'm claire fudge welcome to the business of endurance.

Speaker 1:

Wow, the end of another season of the business of endurance podcast, season seven. We've had incredible guests, some inspirations, educations, phenomenal stories, phenomenal athletes. They've been like drinking from a fire hydrant the amount of ideas and inspiration we've received. So the penultimate episode of Season 7 of the Business of Endurance podcast was with Ben Rosario, who founded and runs the Hoka Northern Arizona running team. What did you make of that interview, claire?

Speaker 2:

It was really interesting because I don't think I've ever interviewed or spoken to somebody who runs a team like that, so I think the actual kind of ins and outs of that team was really interesting. Although he sits on the outside, directs that now. That was really interesting to learn about, and I think also the part around how it's been created through sponsorship by poker as a shoe company. The olympics recently ended in in paris and there were lots of conversations about athletes being sponsored and being being paid, should I say, to win, or if they won medals, particularly within athletics. I think that was a new area. So I think it's really interesting to hear of this different model. I say different because I guess, being in the world of endurance sport, we don't see it like that. So that for me was just really interesting to see where potentially sport is actually going in terms of where money is going to be generated within sport. What about for you? We talked about marginal gains and where shoes were a good conversation.

Speaker 1:

I agree that part was fascinating as a big fan of shoe dog and the story about nike sponsoring michael jordan. The impact of sponsoring athletes seen winning by a company like hoka is really interesting. But then counter to that was the fact that when nike brings out the vaporflies, suddenly all their athletes are significantly quicker Then a team like HOKO. They can't just suddenly go OK, we'll go run in Nike shoes because clearly that's not going to work for a business model. So suddenly they're not running on a, they're not competing on a level playing field, are they?

Speaker 1:

And I think that was fascinating in terms of where that conversation around? Where is innovation in the sport? Good terms of where that conversation around, where is innovation in the sport good? Where do we put the line to say, okay, but we can't have an athlete that was coming 20th a week ago suddenly going up to first because they've switched running shoes. I also love the conversation around training people like a pro, like they did with matt fitzgerald. Let's dive into the snippet from Ben around the shoe and how important having the best shoe was, but also how difficult it was running a team sponsored by a shoe company.

Speaker 3:

There was a time when Hopa was behind in racing shoes. We did not feel behind in training shoes. We felt like we had unbelievable training shoes, as good or better than anybody else from 2019 to 2022, when we were behind in racing shoes, and it really came to bear in 2020 and 2021. In 2019, we were definitely behind Nike, but I don't think any other brands had caught up to Nike either. The first moment it became obvious was the 2020 Olympic Trials Marathon in the US, where we went first, sixth and eighth on the women's side. We had a great day on the women's side, but we were fortunate that only one Nike-sponsored athlete on the women's side that year was in good form and that was Sally Kipiego, and she got third. It didn't affect the women's race much because other brands weren't there either. On the men's side, nike brought their new Alpha Flies to Atlanta and allowed any runner to wear them if they wanted, and on the men's side, even if you were sponsored by another brand, a lot of the other brands let their athletes wear those Nike shoes, and so our top athlete, scott Faubel, was 12th place, but he was the second guy not in those Nike shoes, and the times those athletes ran on that course blew my mind. That's when I realized we're way behind here. And I'm not saying that Scott would have made the team. He also had gotten sick five weeks out, but he wouldn't have been 12th. I'll tell you that I think what we did as a team was healthy and, I think, was the right thing to do. I don't know. We just moved forward. We didn't talk about it, we didn't let it bother us, we didn't complain about it. We just moved forward. But as time went on, again, I think we've been way fortunate in 2020 because there wasn't much racing after those trials, because those trials happened in February and then the world shut down in March and there was limited racing in 2020.

Speaker 3:

Myself, josh Cox and Matt Helbig put together a race called the Marathon Project in December 2020. And Chandler, arizona, was a pro-only race for 50 men, 50 women, and in that race, our men got fourth and fifth or fourth and sixth, something like that, and they ran 209, but they got beat by a couple of guys who more power to them. I just didn't think they should have gotten beaten by and, of course, they were wearing the shoes. So that was another moment where I was like man. And then, when you went into 2021, we had tangible moments where we had a guy run the same time. He ran the year before on the same course against the same field and in 2019, he had been second, I would say by the fall of 21,.

Speaker 3:

It was out in the open, causing problems To their credit. Hoka realized that, changed course and by 2022, by the spring of of them to come up with this technology and not share it. But it's not their job, it's the governing body's job to police it and set regulations. All sports that have technology involved have regulations for that technology, and the regulations need to stay in front of the technology. What we can't have is another period of time where one brand, whoever it may be, comes up with some technology that's far greater than everybody else and creates an unfair advantage.

Speaker 1:

The last episode of season seven was just a brilliant episode. Somebody I've been wanting to get onto the podcast for ages the author brilliant running books. We've had great authors this season, but this guy produces incredible running books that have me laughing out loud. Incredible runner and that was dean carnasas. What did you make of the interview with dean?

Speaker 2:

I love his story of how he literally one night, when he'd had quite a few I think it was tequilas, was it, or beer, or maybe both decided on his 30th birthday to run 30 miles. To do that off the background of you know, not running at that point in time was incredible. But then waking up the next morning and saying, oh my god, what happened? What did I do? I'm going to do this again today.

Speaker 2:

One of the things for me that we started to talk about in ultramarathons how does he keep going when there's pain? How does he keep going when he knows he's got miles and miles to go when he's on his own? And he mentioned there about being quite in his head, literally put one step in front of the other. And I asked him about this quiet mind, because that's come across in many of our episodes, hasn't it? In many of our seasons of ultra endurance, athletes talking about this quiet mind, and I was really interested to hear that he actually does both. So he will.

Speaker 2:

I'll call it multitasking. He'll listen to things, like he listens to some books, which I know you're a great fan of and actually have taught me to do that so that I can consume more information now, which is brilliant and that was just fascinating, that he's able to have a quiet mind. But he's also able to train with listening to things as well, and I believe, from the beginnings of what he was saying, that's where his book writing comes from. He has these great ideas and then can detail them down. I think he said on his phone, but I can't recall he can write when he gets back. I don't know. Like, when you're doing long runs, do you ever have any amazing ideas? Because I know that's where a lot of my ideas come from, good or stupid.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. I haven't done this lately, but if I need to plan a keynote talk, I'll block out time to run. I find it's almost as good cycling, but most effective while running. There's something about moving and seeing the scenery. Finally, I was running at lunchtime listening to a book and then my mind went that's a great idea, but it's not come from the book, it's not even relevant to the book I'm listening to. Yeah, I've come back with an amazing idea for one of my businesses. Yeah, combination of caffeine and running just brilliant for the brain.

Speaker 1:

But I love the interview with Dean because I literally has me laughing out loud at his books. There's something about running that attracts writers. I know I remember asking him about that. Running allows you to think a lot and come up with ideas more than almost any sport. I think it's not like running has stories like you would expect from like football or rugby or whatever, but it does generate a lot of books that are very good and I can't recommend highly enough his books. But the other piece I took from it was how his fueling has changed over the years. I love the idea of the pizza guy pulling up alongside him as he's running along, going here's your pizza and he rolls it up into one massive burrito and shovels it down, chucks the cheesecake in his backpack and takes a pint of Coke and goes thanks, I'll see you in another 30 miles or something.

Speaker 2:

I mean it takes training up to extremes.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. But it's amazing. It shows how clearly he's got more scientific as he's gone on, and he's gone on to win the ultra marathon in Death Valley. But it shows that you don't have to be as scientific and structured to get through ultra stuff. It definitely got me excited about doing another ultra marathon, even longer than I've done before. We should give the listeners a snippet of Dean telling the story of his re-entry back into running on his 30th birthday and doing those 30 miles in his boxer shorts.

Speaker 4:

I used to love to run when I was a kid. Some of my earliest childhood recollections were running home from kindergarten and I ran competitively until high school. At 15, we won the cross-country championships and I thought that's as far as I'll take my running career. So I stopped running at 15. Fast forward to my 30th birthday. A couple university degrees later, a business degree, comfortable corporate job in San Francisco, and I'm in a nightclub on my 30th birthday celebrating. At midnight. I told them I was leaving and they said why? It's your 30th birthday, let's have another round of tequila to celebrate. And I told them no, I'm going to run 30 miles to celebrate. They said but you're not a runner, you're drunk. I said I am, but I'm still going to do it.

Speaker 4:

And I literally walked out of the bar, just humiliated with my life as a businessman, even though I was successful. I just wasn't happy and I started stumbling drunkenly into the night, heading south, knowing there was a town called Half Moon Bay, 30 miles away. I thought run there tonight, set your sights on that and that'll be an accomplishment. I sobered up about 10 miles down the road and I thought well, what the hell are you doing? This is crazy. But something felt right. I kept going and I made it. It wasn't pretty, some blistering and chafing, but I made it 30 miles and I decided that next morning that I was going to become a long-distance runner. I quit my corporate job and dedicated myself to running, and that was three decades ago.

Speaker 1:

And since that time you have done the most incredible amount of running. There's no point in me trying to work out where to start in terms of which ones to pick, so I suppose the question I'll ask is which do you think is your most proud achievement in your running career? Which one of those incredible events challenges, races do you put at the top of your roster?

Speaker 4:

You know, I've run on all seven continents twice. I've run across the hottest place on Earth, death Valley, and I've run a marathon to the South Pole, the coldest place on earth. But I think running 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 consecutive days was probably the most difficult challenge and perhaps the most rewarding, because there was no blueprint for doing it. It had never been done before. Figuring out logistically how to do it, how to get sponsors to help cover the cost. This is back in 2006. So it kind of set in motion this idea of taking on these self-conceived challenges. Now you have people doing all kinds of crazy events that are outside of competition but nonetheless challenging and rewarding.

Speaker 1:

You're right. There is so much going on now. Obviously, the world of ultra running has changed massively since you started. What are the things that are still in ultra running that were then and that are dear to your heart, and what's the unexpected new thing in ultra running that you also love that wasn't there when you?

Speaker 4:

started. The challenge and the expansion of what you conceive as possible is expanded when you run an ultra marathon. I live in the world of ultra marathoning and I just think everyone knows about ultra-marathoning but they don't. And you know, when someone hears you ran 100 continuous miles, they can't wrap their head around it, like I couldn't wrap my head around it when I heard about 100-mile foot race the first time. So I think that thrill of doing the impossible is still there. It's certainly become a more competitive sport. Since I started the numbers have grown exponentially.

Speaker 4:

So the growth of ultramarathoning has blown my mind. It's still a relatively small base when you compare it to marathoning or running in general, but it's more commonplace. The word ultramarathon or ultramarathoning is more prevalent in the everyday lexicon. You read about it in the paper once in a while, so there's a greater understanding of ultramarathoning in the general public. The demographic has shifted, which I like. When I first got into it it was primarily men and now it's about 40, 60 men and women. You look around and think this person doesn't look fit. There's no way they're going to run 50 miles or 100 kilometers. But what I've learned it's more up here in the head there's people that are not wanting the podium, not even mid-pack, but just to make it. You know their goal is just I want to finish this race. And then you know they're slow and steady and they do it.

Speaker 2:

I think it's amazing to see so many different types of people from different backgrounds now actually taking part in these events. As you've seen, things evolve over time with the event. How has your nutrition changed over that time? Because it sounds like the first 30 miles you ever did, potentially fueled by beer and tequila. So how has that fueling strategy changed over time?

Speaker 4:

I mean that's a good question. You know, the first time I ran 200 miles it was a 12-person relay race but I just signed up as one person. I told them I didn't have 11 friends left. So, famously, in the middle of the night I was alone and hungry. I had a cell phone and a credit card. I ordered pizza delivered to me as I was running and I ate a whole pizza. I rolled it up into a big burrito log of pizza and ate it. I just thought early on. I just thought calories were calories. Just get in as many calories as you can. It was just a numbers game burning 10, 20, 30,000 calories. Just consume that amount in whatever form. I've now become much more precise about the types of calories carbohydrates, fats, protein, simple sugars, complex sugars, branched chain amino acids so I's become much more sophisticated and scientific. As far as fueling During these really long runs longer than 24 hours I'm still having pizza. I still love solid food and it's a mix now of sports nutrition and food I love to eat while I'm running.

Speaker 1:

So with that it concludes season seven of the Business of Endurance podcast. We've had some incredible guests, some incredible themes running through it. I think the theme of seeing how different countries groom their youngsters into athletes I think has been fascinating. Particularly memorable was me saying to Ben Rosario that the US team hadn't done as well as expected, given their amazing collegiate system. And then they seem to win every gold medal in track and field in the Paralympics thereafter. So that made me feel very stupid. Really interesting theme. Some great things around mental health and how Big Moose have helped athletes. Like guest Lewis Roebling on the podcast. We've had some great authors as well, haven't we? Dean Karnasas, alex Hutchinson, matt Fitzgerald. What a season. What was your biggest takeaway, claire, from season seven?

Speaker 2:

Do you know, I think, because this season was slightly different in terms of really talking about and taking this into kind of a business world. I really loved how each and every one of those guests was able to talk about actually how do some of these things apply to business, so that for me, I think, was no matter who we spoke to, actually some of these real transferable points into business, I thought was fantastic. I loved though I really loved speaking to Alex Hutchinson, particularly because of the science base and that for me, I'm all about evidence-based information, science, teaching that it's a great episode.

Speaker 1:

If you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the Business of Endurance podcast. We don't ask for you to pay for us. We don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple. Give us a five-star rating because it shows us you care and, if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine, something like inspiring or amazing or something like that, but we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much, and chloe from big moose charity, we featured in episode one of season seven, made such a great impact on the both of us, we decided to make them our charity sponsor for season seven, and it really touched me in the sense that I lost my brother-in-law to suicide in Wales and these guys are working their socks off to help prevent situations like that. So, claire, why did Jeff and Chloe really make an impact on you?

Speaker 2:

Coming from a background in clinical nutrition and working in mental health, to me also it hit a spot in terms of the charity and how they are building therapy to help support people with mental health difficulties, and they've saved over 50 lives now and already met their first target of a million and their new target, 15 million, that they're trying to get to.

Speaker 1:

It's absolutely incredible and 15 million is a huge target they've set themselves, but they're speeding up help that people in desperately in need get, and this help is needed more than ever and I know how problematic mental health issues are in today's world. So if you think you can help Big Moose Charity and they're particularly looking for corporate partners to help them raise that 15 million, if you think you can help them or link them into a company that can help them, the best place to go to is bigmoosecharityco, or you can find them on Instagram as bigmoosecharity, or you can even email Jeff at jeffatbigmooseco.