Business of Endurance

Building Community and Business in Endurance Sports with Ed Chang

• Charlie Reading • Season 8 • Episode 9

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Today’s guest is a master of endurance—not just in sport, but in business and life. Ed Chang was a successful lawyer, an Ironman triathlete, and the co-founder of Varlo Sports, a rising force in endurance apparel. But what makes his story remarkable isn’t just the accolades—it’s the mindset, the strategy, and the lessons he’s learned along the way. How do you balance a legal career, a start-up, and training for one of the toughest endurance events on the planet? What can triathlon teach us about building businesses, and what can business teach us about racing smarter? Ed breaks it all down. Not only that, but Varlo as a business really know their 'Why' and they are on a mission to change the sport for good. Stick around to hear how Ed applies endurance thinking to every area of life and how you can do the same.

Highlights:
 - Ed's Journey into Endurance Sports
 - Building a Community-Centric Brand
 - Advocacy and Community Engagement
 - Balancing Law and Endurance Sports
 - Embracing Challenges and Growth
 - The Role of AI in Endurance Sports
 - The Irreplaceable Human Touch
 - Utilizing AI in Business Communications
 - Balancing Endurance Sports and Busy Careers
 - Memorable Triathlon Moments and Highlights
 - Books That Inspire: From Triathlon to Business
 - The Power of Community and Mental Endurance
 - Reflections on Personal Growth and Future Goals

Links:
Connect with Ed Chang through Instagram.

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Ed Chang:

The apparel is designed to fit very, very comfortably and the goal is to that, when you put it on, that you feel empowered, it feels like a super suit and you feel ready to conquer whatever goals that are set.

Charlie Reading:

Today's guest is a master of endurance, not just in sport but in business and life. Ed Chang was a successful lawyer, an Ironman athlete and is the co-founder of Valo Sports, a rising force in endurance apparel. But what makes his story remarkable isn't just the accolades. It's the mindset, the strategy and the lessons he's learned along the way. How do you balance a legal career, a startup and training for one of the toughest endurance events on the planet? What can triathlon teach us about building businesses? And what can business teach us about racing smarter? Well, ed breaks it all down. Not only that, but Valo is a business. Breaks it all down. Not only that, but VALO is a business. They really know their why and they're on a mission to change the sport for good. So stick around to hear how Ed applies endurance thinking to every area of life and how you can do the same.

Charlie Reading:

So I know you're going to love this interview with Ed Chang of Valo Sport. So, ed, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast, really looking forward to chatting to you about the world of endurance, sport, but also the world of business. Today, I think we're going to spend more than our usual share talking about business, which I'm excited about, but really I'd like to just kick things off and understand more about your sort of. How did you fall into the world of endurance sport? Just to start things off, what's your story around how you fell into the world of triathlon and endurance sport and what was sport like when you were growing up?

Ed Chang:

Yeah, I'm super excited to be here with you. Charlie and Claire, thanks for having me. Endurance sport. You know I kind of fell into triathlon through the running side. You know I ran a little bit of cross-country in high school JV, nothing serious. I stopped running because my grades weren't great starting out in high school and parents were gotta stop rafi so focus on school. So I quit pretty early on but really loved the experience of being on a cross-country team, being on that team and going to going to meet. That that team camaraderie feel still stuck with me years out of the year.

Ed Chang:

I would say I got back into running. Probably I think it was around. I ran a little bit throughout, you know, just college recreationally. But it's really when we turned, I think, about 25 or 30. I can't remember the date, but my wife was really the instigator. She was like you know what, we're hitting this milestone, we want us to continue to stay fit while we were being in our professional careers. And she's like we're going to sign up for a race. We're going to sign up for a.

Ed Chang:

In Philadelphia, which is where I'm from, there's a race that was called the 20 and 24. It was an ultra relay to benefit, a nonprofit back on my feet, which was a homeless charity that helps homeless people get back on their feet through running, and there's a 24-hour relay. That it was in the middle of summer, it's every July. I think it ceased at some point in the years. So it's an ultra run. So there are people that run for 24 hours consecutively or even doing relay teams. We chose to do the midnight run, which is one loop. It's the loop around Philadelphia Art Museum, around the trails. It's a river loop. We call it the Kelly Drive loop, which is the trail. It's an eight-foot, four-mile loop. So we just signed up for that.

Ed Chang:

Before that I hadn't done anything more than say a 5K. So that was just a fun kind of wacky goal goal to do run at midnight, people dressed up in lights and you're running in the pitch dark, kind of tripping along routes and things. But that was our first goal and it was really just a fitness goal to kind of um, you know, stay fit and have a goal from there. It just kind of did your standard kind of running progression. You know eight mile. Then the 10 mile broad street run was just really well known, phknown in Philadelphia. Then you have half marathon, marathon.

Ed Chang:

And after that I was like kind of like, hi, you know what's next, right, and then I think, like many others, I found triathlon. So it's nice, you get, you know, watching the NBC coverage you know the annual NBC coverage on Kona it was really inspiring. I said, let's, let's give it a go. I hopped in the pool, never knew how to swim, you know, I swam, knew how to swim, not drown, right, I think, like many people never, never, swam a lapse or anything and stopped in the pool of my local gym and at least tried to land. It was terrible. It was terrible slipping from one end to the other, but I thought it was something like it's something I could learn and do and it wasn't horrible. But then I started training for my first triathlon and that's kind of my journey. That was probably around 2012-2013 time frame.

Charlie Reading:

Amazing. So to switch then to business, because we're going to come back to that and your sort of your triathlon journey, but to switch into business, obviously we're here because you have a business called Valo, which is very much, and I'll let you tell us a bit, a little bit more about that business. But you came in from a legal background. So how did you end up going? Tell us a little bit about your legal background and then how did you end up in Valo and how did you kind of end up doing that full time?

Ed Chang:

Yeah. So legal background, I was an attorney for 20 years, a partner in a large global law firm, and towards the end of my career and the journey was really I think endurance sport was really a diversion. It was kind of a way to kind of exercise your way around the stretches of the job when I fell in the triathlon we're going to get back to that but I really fell in love with the community. I love the camaraderie. I mentioned high school cross-country. That feeling of a team, the feeling of camaraderie, was something that was really just what I loved about triathlon. As a brand Barlow, our mission is to empower all humans to conquer the goals of tomorrow and I think a lot of people when they hear triathlon, they think you know the sexy aero carbon bike, the carbon wheels, the aero helmets that look like Darth Vader, all that fun stuff, which I love. I'm a big tech guy. I love all that. I geek out on that stuff as well. But I think what people may not acknowledge as much is the community around. The sport was just so amazing. And it comes to waking up at zero to 30, and it could be your local sprint triathlon. You smell that dew of the grass, the butterflies in your stomach. And then you see a friend in transition. You're nervous, they're nervous and hey, good luck today. Good luck today, claire, have a good race. Then you get to see them on the course, slap a high five, cross through and slap a high five. But it's that feeling of community that I truly fell in love with when I did my first triathlon. I met more and more people in the sport. I was doing this on the side and I really, you know, after I finished my first Ironman, like class in 2016, I wanted to see how I could give that for it.

Ed Chang:

As a triathlete kind of, we tend to be terrible cyclists, so a lot of our training in the US, a lot of my training, was on the local trails which are off. You know, they're kind of paved trails, no cars. I spent a lot of time on the Schuylkill River Trail, which is a long trail from Philadelphia all the way out to the suburbs. You'll see a lot of triathletes train there because they're safe, there's no cars, you can run on it. And I joined the Philadelphia Bicycle Coalition of Greater Philadelphia, which is the local nonprofit group that advocates for trail development as well as road safety, because I was like hey, as a trail user, I did my Ironman training a lot on the trails I wanted to get back and try to advocate for building of more facilities and infrastructure. So I joined the board.

Ed Chang:

That was on the board for a number of years and at an event in 2020, that's when I first met Sajiboh, the founder and CEO of Volo, before he was just getting started with the company, he actually came to an event, a Vision Zero conference, which is a road infrastructure safety event. He came to a cocktail hour to find me because and I learned this after the fact you know, there I just happened to bump into him, but he tells me after the fact that he came to find me just because of my connections in the local cycling and triathlon community. At the time, he came up to me and said hey, I'm founding a apparel brand for triathlon. I was like, well, that's amazing. Well, triathlon, let's talk. So that's when we first got connected and it was literally the week before the COVID shut down. So I met at this big, large event which was there was some COVID thing in the background. I was like should I even go to this? I was like should I even go to this Probably isn't, but whatever Went to this event with, like you know, 100, 200 people. And then that was Saj. We met for a lunch meeting where he kind of did a little mini presentation on what I wanted to be. Again, that was another meeting, literally the week of COVID.

Ed Chang:

Covid was Friday, the 13th March. Shutdown that was probably Tuesday. I met with him. He was the last person I met in person before the COVID shut down for months. But I followed along the journey. The company was founded in March 2020. So around that same time launched operations, launched sales in September 2020. I followed along the journey, kind of set up with connections and folks that I knew in the sport and kind of followed along. A lot of my friends were involved in the brand as well and jumped all in and kind of became an investor and co-owner in July of 2021. It was kind of the the time frame there it.

Claire Fudge:

It seems like you had so many plates spinning at that time from doing your, you know, working in law working which will come back to the bicycle coalition, because I think that sounds really interesting and the and the connecting the trails as well. What does, as a brand, what does VALO represent?

Ed Chang:

because it's it seems from you know certainly what we've read it's VALO seems to represent something more than just a triathlon brand of, yeah, clothing yeah, so you know, I saw that question and actually we just went through a strategic planning process to kind of regroup, which we do annual internally. But it's about, you know, our three uniques and I think that was one of the questions you all were looking into. Really, our three uniques are, you know, number one it's a community-built experience and we create a welcoming and supportive environment where everyone is encouraged to bring their full selves, encouraging meaningful connections. So it kind of goes back to what I I was talking about, my cross-country days, the, the triathlon teams days. It's a community where we seek to uplift one another. We always say at barlow, like if we, if we sell apparel, if it comes down selling apparel, we've already lost. We don't sell apparel, we sell empowerment.

Ed Chang:

I think the way size was put in to others before is, I don't know, player or Charlie, if you think of, think in your mind right now a moment where you committed yourself to achieving something maybe it was to qualify Kona, as you both have qualified. Think about how that felt, you know, when you set that goal. Think about the commitment and sacrifices you made. Think about, maybe, people who may have doubted you and said, hey, that's crazy, you're never going to qualify for Kona. Think about maybe people who may have doubted you and said, hey, that's crazy, you're never going to qualify for Kona, that's an unreachable goal. And then think about when you actually cross that finish line, the feeling that you felt when you crossed that finish line and how empowering that was. That feeling is what Varlow is selling.

Ed Chang:

That is really the purpose of why Varlow was founded and we believe everyone should be entitled to experience that feeling. It's a privilege to be able to do that, to train to achieve and really to have belief in yourself. It really is a privilege to achieve something, to be able to achieve and have the community support you to achieve that, and we believe everyone is entitled to it and that's kind of the genesis of Varlo. So it comes from that community-built experience. Yes, our apparel is great. You know we feature in technologies and we want to make things comfortable and high-performing, but it's that inspirational personal growth, that achievement when we say conquer the goals of tomorrow. It's that and that's why, if you look at more social media and the people that follow us and ambassadors, it's a very, very common theme behind the brand.

Charlie Reading:

So how do you hope to achieve that? So is that a reflection on kind of how you run the company, how you're building the community? Is it a reflection on the design of the product? How do you look to deliver that through an apparel company, because that's not an easy thing to achieve.

Ed Chang:

Yeah. So I think it comes in terms of the messaging. It comes in all those things. It comes in the brand community. We have a team of very low brand communities or brand ambassador community or 500 members this year. That's part of it, Having seen the people within the community, the designs that we create, how the apparel is crafted and how it feels on body.

Ed Chang:

The apparel is designed to fit very, very comfortably and the goal is that when you put it on that you feel empowered, it feels like a super suit and you feel ready to conquer whatever goals that are set. So it's a mix. It actually has to come in from all aspects. It has to come from a place of authenticity. You can't just say it or just say it in ad copy, say it in your social posts. It really has to come from the heart. It has to come from authenticity. But I think you know, as from the founders, it really comes from the top. You know, when you talk to Saaz or myself or anyone in our leadership team, it's speaking those words to reality. It's speaking that empowerment and it comes through, it comes alive via the actual physical apparel. But it's if it also comes from every aspect that surrounds the brand and do you?

Claire Fudge:

I was. I was reading actually as well that you know through your brand, that you'll also attend races and have this. You were talking about community, but is that also how you try and create that community so that you're supporting other other people?

Ed Chang:

absolutely so. Yeah, we do attend various races throughout the course of the season and that's our opportunity to really reach out and and meet new, meet new potential customers, meet new potential community engagement members. We also have in our team barlow specific focus races where we that, where we attend, and I'll speak a little bit about this because I'll get to some of the other questions. But you know, we have annually a live event. We used to hold it in boulder, we've had in philadelphia and now we're going to have in chicago next year, this year at the super chain chicago. So, yes, community being present and we always say you need to be present to when you can't just building a brand, you're're building a new brand. You can't just be kind of posting Google ads, posting social. It really comes from that engagement that's kind of pressed in the flesh, as you know, from the politician's standpoint of view, but meeting people and just telling them about the mission of what we're trying to do, you know, in the sport.

Claire Fudge:

I'm just thinking about the community as well and the rails to trails. So I was interested to know, because you were saying that actually that's how you met the founder of VALO as well. So how has that developed into what you're doing with Rails to Trails, if you don't want to tell us a little bit about what that is? Yeah, absolutely so there are two non-profits.

Ed Chang:

I'm on the board of Philadelphia Bicycle Coalition as well as Rails to Trails Conservancy. The Bicycle Coalition of Philadelphia is our kind of local advocacy group so we advocate for safer streets, traffic infrastructure improvements. We have a youth cycling program that works with inner city youth throughout the city to get them on bikes, teach them healthy habits and also how to race and engage in the sport of cycling. So that's kind of a city-centric advocacy group. And then Rails to Trails is more of a kind of national group that advocates in the United States for the construction of trails Probably over 44,000 miles of trails throughout the country and where we advocate with local communities, local government systems to advocate for funding as well as development there.

Ed Chang:

From the Spice Coalition portion you know through my work is that also stemmed through my love of triathlon. I know I was engaged with many of the local triathlon groups in Philadelphia and the greater Philadelphia region, which is Pennsylvania, new Jersey and Delaware as well. So I had a lot of connections just kind of advocating through the work we do with the coalition but also had a lot of friends and teams and groups and clubs that I've worked with, engaged with. So that was kind of the formation of my kind of community that was building throughout, let's say, 2015, 2016, all the way through 2020. And those were kind of the networks that I leveraged ultimately to. You know help grow, grow the brand at the outset.

Charlie Reading:

I think you're, you're, you're really right with the. So the community in in the triathlon world and the cycling world and the running world, is just, it is really very special and we've talked about this with quite a few of the guests over the years. How do you like, where do you see the future of this? So if we, if we look at three from now, how do you think you can have made that community even stronger, both for the business but also for the sport?

Ed Chang:

Yeah, because we're selling what we. The purpose of Varlo is that community-built experience. Our purpose is to grow the sport. Yeah, we're at this point. We're beyond triathlon. At this point we're beyond triathlon. We sell cycling apparel in REI Co-op, which is the largest outdoor retailer in the United States $4 billion in annual revenue, and that's cycling. So our goal is to kind of grow the sport by bringing more people into the sport and bringing more eyes into the sport. We intend to actually do that through our partnerships with REI as well as SuperTri.

Ed Chang:

Currently, and it all comes kind of post-COVID. I mean, we're kind of Marla's, kind of a COVID baby, shall we say. Right, we kind of came from the turmoil of COVID, but that also brought so many new people into the outdoor space. You had people realizing for the first time the benefits of being outside. Maybe it was they took their first walk outside on the trail, maybe they did their first 5K, maybe they started cycling for the first time, for kind of the mental elements, the physical elements. So you're really, I think, post-covid, riding this big wave of people really new to the outdoors, new to endurance sports. So people are starting to get outside for the first time and say, hey, what are these things to do? And maybe they started running, maybe they started cycling for the first time, and then that's usually what leads into triathlon. Is that similar to my journey and the journey of many others? So, from a community aspect the growth aspect our vision is to really to grow the sport to by bringing more people into the sport, by showing them that this is really for everyone.

Ed Chang:

I think it comes down to some of the things, the challenges of triathlon. I think triathlon gets a bad rep because it's viewed as elitist, it's used as expensive but in. But in fact, what draws people there is the complete opposite is that it's it's welcoming, it's. I've spoken to some of our pro athletes and others about this, this, this concept. Everyone you meet in triathlon, they could be from a beginner to the very tops, the pros, the elites Bob Babbitt, you know who we have a great relationship with at the very top. They're so welcoming, they're so amazing.

Ed Chang:

You ask them a question, they'll answer it, they'll help you in any way they can, and I really do believe it stems from this aspect that if you're a triathlete, somebody helped you along the way, like nobody knew how to swim, bike and run, period If you were a collegiate swimmer, you're a great swimmer, but you probably clipped in and fell over the first time on the bike and there was someone there to teach you and help you out, right?

Ed Chang:

If you're a collegiate runner, you know, or a club runner, then maybe you never knew how to swim and someone taught you to do that. And I think that humbleness, that empathy, is really instilled in almost every triathlete that you meet, because they remember that someone helped them get to where they are. So I think that's one of the kind of not so emphasized points of truth on this care I love and it's part that we try to bring and that's that kind of comes into that community, because you really need a community to help you get into the sport. And it doesn't have to be expensive, it really doesn't. You can throw on some running shoes, get some goggles and ride your you know kind of bike you bought from Macy's right for your first sprint. It really doesn't have to be expensive, it can be very fun.

Claire Fudge:

I think you're absolutely right about that triathlon community and I think if you speak to anybody, you know we've all got a story to tell about. You know who helped us with certain aspects and I can think now you know some of the big, you know memories that I have of people helping me to get to where I've been and that is just purely because they love the sport. So I think you know, I think that's that's really true. What do you think there's two sides to this question. What do you think that your career as a law career has has? What have you brought with you, I guess, into the world of your own racing and sport, and what do you think endurance sport has taught you in terms of business and the business that you're in now?

Ed Chang:

yeah, I would say the career. You know, the irony is, now that I'm in the sport I'm probably the least trained, that I've been probably over 15 years. Just because you know, I think your triathlon when I was a lawyer was a diversion, you know, I kind of it was my way of kind of releasing the pressures I was under. I actually was just reminded of this because I actually raced my first 70.3 in Wilmington Ironman. My three last October was my first race and serious race and probably, geez, the three or four years since, since getting involved in varlo.

Ed Chang:

But what I loved about triathlon was that mental space. I think triathlon when I was racing specifically it was one of the few moments that I would have where it was pure focused mind, body and soul into the moment. You can talk about going out for a run and you're thinking about work. You're thinking about who you have to call or you forgot to do this or that. You know every single.

Ed Chang:

You know you could do that same thing cycling and swimming on its own, but when you're in the race there is you have no choice but to focus specifically on what your body is feeling. You know what really feeling at one with your body and your mind, and it was one of the few moments that I've ever experienced, that I've ever been able to kind of let go of everything that's going in your head and really just focus on the now. So I think triathlon really kind of gave me that focus and kind of chasing that feeling also to that feeling of calmness and zen, right to be able to meditate and release almost everything in your mind. But what you're in in this very moment, I think, is what's what has taught me the and I still not to say I still don't fall into it, but you know, from that worrying thinking but I think triathlon really gives you that piece of zen, because when you're in the racing it's really one of the few instances that you can experience purely being in the moment.

Charlie Reading:

Brilliant and to flip it the other way. And so what have you taken from your business life and how's that helped you in the world of endurance sport?

Ed Chang:

I think the business life is just a level of professionalism and communications. All of us that kind of involved in barlow we actually come from very professional backgrounds, professional degrees. Saj, our ceo, ceo he's you know, he came from 20 years of sales and you know, with major medical devices bringing new products to market. I came from 20 years of sales with major medical devices bringing new products to the market. I came from a legal background but a professional background and Lens it just gives that, I think, an aspect of professionalism to the brand and how we conduct ourselves. For me and my work and my everyday business it's just communicating. It's actually not that much different than what I was doing as a lawyer is just being very communicative, working with clients, learning to understand what the needs are and fulfilling those. It's kind of listening, asking behind the whys and executing upon that.

Charlie Reading:

But it must feel quite different going from a partner in a big law firm to being in a startup, zero salary. How has your entrepreneurial journey been since taking that brave leap?

Ed Chang:

It's been amazing. I would say it's funny because it's not as different as you would think, because a big part of being a lawyer is being able to communicate articulate arguments, but also just communications and clearly communicating and understanding wants and needs from the client. And that's kind of what you know, what we focus on here at Vrlo in my specific areas that are focused, which is, you know, I work with major partnerships and also manage the custom side of our business, which is working with a multitude of custom teams, clubs, organizations such as you know Colin Cook at Top Guns, supertri, you know REI. So it's about communicating and also just serving.

Ed Chang:

I think when I first became a lawyer, it was kind of I wanted to help people, which is a big thing. I enjoy helping people, I enjoy serving and it's why I got involved into nonprofits. But you know, from a business perspective, it's really understanding and learning about the customer's needs and fulfilling them. It's not as different as you would think and it doesn't feel that different. I tell people like my job's not that different, except that I don't need to deal with lawyers on the other side. I can deal with inspirational people such as yourself, charlie, and Claire, coaches Everyone's on this journey of self-development, I think, in the sport, and trying to push the boundaries and kind of push beyond their comfort level. And that's why I love triathlon and triathletes. It doesn't matter, you know what level you are, you can be just getting into it, you could just be, you could be a Kona qualifying or a pro, but it's, it's that same characteristics of being willing and able to push beyond their comfort levels and seeing what the human body and mind are capable of achieving.

Claire Fudge:

That leads perfectly onto my next question as well. I'm wondering like in you know your career in law, you obviously experienced times when there was a lot of stress and suffering in a very different way from running an Ironman triathlon. So how, as an entrepreneur now, but also in the world of endurance sport, how do cope when times get tough? What do you? Did you have any specific tactics or perhaps mantras like how do you cope in that world of of stress when things are really hard?

Ed Chang:

I think it really, again, triathlon does come back to it because it comes back to and it's a very stoic philosophy but you can control what you can control, right. That is that that's critical. And when my wife was learning to, she was getting, she dabbled in triathlon and like many, including myself, she struggled with the open water, the panic right Kind of getting into her first open water swim. And she went to a local swim clinic in New Jersey which is really close to our office and who we work with, eta coach. It's an open water swim venue at a YMCA camp and this coach, jason Kildare, who was also ultimately my RMA coach.

Ed Chang:

My wife went to this pond. It's a lake in Medford, new Jersey. Dark water, it's cedar, I think. So the water is very, very brown. I think it has to do with the cedar or something with the trees there. So kind of weighing in waste first.

Ed Chang:

And you know, my wife is like asked the coach, coach jay, how deep's the water? And he says and he says, don't worry about it, you control what you can control because it doesn't matter how deep it is, you still got to go in there to your swim, right, so don't worry about. And that actually mentally helped her quite a bit, just like, well, it doesn't matter how deep it is, like, can you control that? No, but you can control how you're going to feel and how you're going to react. And you know when things get stressful, you know it's kind of you go back to that right, think about the things that you can control, right, how you will personally react to things, how you will allow things, how you will allow yourself to react to things, and it kind of goes back to that stoic philosophy which I think pervades in the sport brilliant and and I love the control, the controllables saying I think it's so powerful in so many aspects of our life the.

Charlie Reading:

The person I always think of on this podcast when somebody says that is mckeely jones, who is, you know, just absolute legend of a triathlete, but she reiterated that so many times when we interviewed her. But she, she is also one of the people that has embraced tridor, which I know colin has, obviously for those. We've mentioned it a few times on the podcast because I use tridor. But bringing ai into the triathlon coaching, how do you see ai helping your business and do you see it as a great, amazing threat or an amazing opportunity, or is it both? To Valo, how's AI going to impact it?

Ed Chang:

Yeah, I mean, I think it's a tool. I think you know we already have a brand. You know, as a company, if you're not using AI, you're probably leaving things on the table and it allows us to accomplish things that it may be taking longer to do do. So you definitely want to be using ai to the extent possible. I don't view it as a threat. I think it's just a natural progression of things. It's a tool like any other and needs to be utilized to the extent possible because all of our competitors are using it. You know, I think, in terms of the ai training I, I just, you know, I was recently introduced to com to through to eric har, who's the founder of Maxium, which is an AI-driven coaching platform, but also nutrition. So I actually started using their platform a little, dabbled in it a little bit. They just released it earlier this year.

Ed Chang:

I think it is a very powerful tool, right. It gives you the learning ability, the capabilities. It's kind of mind-boggling, but at the same time, you still need to maintain that human connection. At the very least, it needs to be tempered with that human connection. Maybe it's through a coach reviewing the data, reviewing, providing guidance on more of the specifics where the AI can assist and serve as perhaps a baseline. But I think that having that human connection is still so important. But again, ai can never replace that community experience. Right, you can chat with the, although I think there's that documentary or that movie, there's that movie with Joaquin Phoenix where he interacts with them, kind of get lost in that world.

Ed Chang:

I think AI can't replace that community, that sense of support and it's a tool.

Charlie Reading:

I agree, agree, I think so. When we talked to colin about it, we, we, you know, we said you know it frees the business up to to focus on the things that humans do best, to be more human, and you know whether that's in coaching, whether that's empathy, creativity, leadership, that sort of stuff. If, if they're not, you know typing emails and writing letters and designing training plans and they're freed up to do the empathy, creativity and leadership, it's much more empowering. You gave me a really good example of how you've played around with AI in the training world. Can you give me a specific example in business, how you've utilized AI to help Barlow?

Ed Chang:

Yeah, I think just in the communications draft you have certain communications in a daily business. Again, it's not. I feel like ai is to a point where you can tell and I can tell like someone, someone replies to me like that was an ai reply, so you can't just rely on it solely. It can get you started. I think at this point everyone's utilized it so, like they can get, you can think I you know, we were interviewing people. I think someone sent me a. It was either a cover letter or a thank you. I was like that wasn't ai, it was generated and kind of put that to the side. So I would say it's a tool. I think it's in the communication aspects. I utilize it in some aspects, but again it's. It really serves as a starting point and needs to be revised and needs to be refined at this point at some point maybe, maybe it will be. You can type it in and just get a response.

Ed Chang:

But I think, because all of these AI platforms utilize similar baseline databases, data sets, I think it becomes obvious you can't social media posts. It becomes obvious when someone's just using it straight up to do that. So you can't just plug it in and go. But I think oftentimes it creates a starting point to get you going in terms of getting the juices flowing, getting the writing flowing, and you can kind of work with it from there. So I utilize it to really get the starting point going. As a writer, I think, as a lawyer, you oftentimes have to write. Sometimes it's that initial bar, that kind of like oh, I don't know what to say, or I just I just kind of want to you get stuck in that kind of writer's block, whereas I can just type something in AI. Let me start it and then I can refine it and work on it from there. At least it gets that. It helps get the ball rolling much quicker than if I were to do it myself.

Claire Fudge:

Yeah, I think you're absolutely helps with clarity, doesn't it? And then you can kind of direct your mind a little bit better. Yeah and yeah, and keeping the human for being human, in terms of you know, whether that's coaching or you know, with your, with your community as well. We've got lots of listeners who who juggle, doing endurance sport of some sort, whether that's ultra running or triathlons, but they're also business owners or work in in really busy jobs in business. Have you got any advice or tips that you could give? Like, how do you juggle? You know all of these different spinning, all these different plates and doing your.

Ed Chang:

You know your sport and doing endurance for us yeah, I would say I would say at the moment I don't. I'm focused right on more on running right now and indoor cycling. Do I conserve time running just because you can throw on a pair of shoes wherever you go? We travel a lot I alluded to. We travel a lot during the race season so it makes it really hard to get in those long workouts, either on the bike or on the run a little bit less, so it's hard to get to the pool. So the short answer unfortunately, because I'm in the industry, I'm probably the least well trained. But when I was a lawyer and I was training for an Ironman, it really just and also a lot of the people in the community and people just wake up at really early hours.

Ed Chang:

I think it's funny when you're training for that Ironman, you find the time somehow. You wake up really early, or you're working out late at night after work or after family obligations, and you really have to first of all find the why right. You have to understand why. Why am I doing this? What am I trying to do with by doing this? Is it's that important to understand that? But you make it happen. I remember like after I finished my first iron man yeah, after you finish those races, all of a sudden you're like sitting around, like I don't know, I found the time. Somehow you do it. Where there is a will, there's a way, and I think it comes down to the why. Like when you, when you identify that why it's, you will find the time to do it. And, uh, it's about squeezing it in at all at all hours. I think is what I would say it's, it's when it becomes important.

Charlie Reading:

Enough, isn't it? If you know your why, that's why that's when it becomes important, and then you're right. You just sort of cram it in. Coming back to your triathlon career, is there a particular highlight? What's the, what's the, the moment that stands out that you're most proud of, or the that is most memorable so far in your craft, your triathlon journey? It sounds like you might need to come back to this, this ironman journey, in due course, but what's the highlight so far?

Ed Chang:

oh, it's got to be. I mean, my first time I was hiring like plasma 20 and kind of crossing the finish line. Hearing Mike Reilly call you in is really just and again, so something I want. So I have a box set of all Iron man DVDs. I think it was like from 2008 to 2012. Iron man used to give out these box sets. They used to sell not give out, sell these DVD box sets of all the prior kind of NBC coverages. I don't know why they don't sell that anymore, but I have a DVD box set in my kind of pain cave and watching all those. You know Chrissy Wellington and Chris McCormick, you know Trolley and just all the kind of greats. Just hearing Mike Riley, you are an Ironman, yeah, so that was something that was just tremendous.

Ed Chang:

I think I remember Lake Placid.

Ed Chang:

It's a two-loop run on the marathon, if you're familiar, and I remember because when you do the first loop you can hear because I'm the middle of the package group I could hear Mike Riley's voice calling people in Like you are an Ironman, charlie, you're an Ironman, claire.

Ed Chang:

I remember thinking at that point you know that's not my time, that was not my time. I gotta, I gotta do this one more time. But but it's like that, you know that's, that's that hearing that voice and going back out onto the blue river river road and coming back and kind of coming around the oval for that final time into that finish, was like a very emotional moment for me because, you know, it was something I had thought about for so many, so many, so many, uh, so many months, you know, training, but also years of imagining myself as an Ironman. And it was, it was, I would say that was definitely my peak. And then I love that course, that Lake Placid is just such a magical course, such a magical city. I've gone back every year since the training box here, you know watch, you know they. Just I just love Lake Placid.

Charlie Reading:

That's really interesting here, actually, because I I have. The only race I've done in the US is Kona, and Lake Placid is the one that I'd earmarked as the one to do, because that stood out to me, as you've sold me on that being the top of my bucket list. Us races Is there a particular race that stands out for you? Is there a particular race that you would you would love to get to or race?

Ed Chang:

You know, I always wanted to race in Europe. I have not raced in Europe, I don't know, I haven't specifically identified one I love. I've only ridden in Europe, ridden in Europe, cycled in Europe, once in Girona but I would love to race out there. Maybe it's Nice, maybe it's Switzerland, but Europe, I love Europe. It's just so gorgeous and beautiful and I would love to do a race out there someday, and it's just the time, obviously. But Supertry Toulouse is now an age-old race, so maybe I was thinking maybe Supertry Toulouse that's going to be, I believe, october or November time frame, that's a mass participation race this year and that's a beautiful French town where people are just crazy about transplants, so maybe I can start there.

Charlie Reading:

Well, there is still spaces at Ironman Austria in June, and I know because it's not that long since I signed up. So if you want to bring Valo to Ironman Austria, you've got like five months to get you. Well, six months, six months it's actually six months and two days, I think. So that's loads of time. You'll be fine. Austria would be beautiful, gorgeous, I can imagine. It looks like a beautiful course, and it's not too. It's a rolling bike, flat run, beautiful lake swim. It's. It's a race made in heaven. So so we one of the questions we ask every guest that we get on the podcast is for books that have inspired them on their journey. So are there any books that you find yourself recommending to other people, or books that really stand out as helping you on your journey, and that that can be business or sport or life?

Ed Chang:

yeah. So I would say both tris mccormick's I came to win is is my favorite in triathlon. It was almost my bible as I was getting into triathlon just because of the training tips. But the inspiration, but even his journey, is inspired myself. There's a story in there that he tells in the beginning about how he was trained as an accountant. After university his mom and dad were saying do the reasonable, sensible thing right, become an accountant. You give up this triathlon because you've been racing as a youth a little bit and having success. Give up that and do what's sensible. So he would take the train or the bus to work and he'd look at these people and just say these people all look miserable. I guess that's why it's called work and not play right. But his journey of how he kind of left, you know, he kind of quit his job as you know, a stable accounting job, moved to Europe to train on the ITU circuit In my law office.

Ed Chang:

Actually this was before years before Varlo actually had like a triplet of Macca's photos that I had blown up and that was my law decorations. I didn't have diplomas, I didn't have law degrees, I had Macca's. There was a swim, bike run triplet of his I think it was the 20, his second win at Kona and you know, I think it's it reminded me. You know, always dream, try to dream big. You know, think of what's possible. And that book especially, I think, really, really inspired me. And as long as it's training tips, I feel like a lot of the triathlon books you read from other folks. They don't really delve into the training. Maka's very specific. You learn a lot, a lot about how to train, how to listen to your body. He's very, very open and sharing a lot of his, his tips. So I I followed that book to a t and actually his on my um, on my what is it? The? The road id actually I think claire you mentioned like mantras I embraced the suck was my mantra for my road id for years and years. So I still follow that and through through varlo. I actually got to meet maca last summer at Supertri, at the Boston and the Chicago event. So that was huge for me and again, he was just amazing. It's just kind of meeting the people you know, heroes. He was just amazing, so open, so friendly. So my favorite book. I definitely came to win.

Ed Chang:

But from a business perspective I enjoyed biographies, walter Isaacson's books. You know Steve Jobs, um, elon musk's are two of my favorite I just find fascinating. Steve jobs is a real was a real source of inspiration for me, just even in the varlo journey as well. You know his idea and a quote, I'm gonna probably paraphrase it. But basically, to be great at anything, you really have to love what you're doing. And it kind of goes back to like the lawyer and I read that and it was like really meaningful to me because you know I was. I was a good lawyer and I felt like I was successful, but I didn't have a true love and passion behind it. I didn't feel like I could ever be great at it. I wanted to do Barlow, I wanted to get involved with Barlow because I had a true passion behind the sport and I truly believe that it's something that to achieve greatness, it's that passion behind it and that's why I sought out something like Barlow that I truly love and want to make it great and achieve greatness through it.

Charlie Reading:

Well, if you're passionate about what you do for a living, then you never work a day in your life, do you from a business life of being a lawyer? And triathlon was your escape from that to now not feeling like you need the escape because because your business is based around the thing that you're passionate about. So I mean that's amazing. I also love the Chris McCormack's book. I think it's. I hadn't really picked up because I wasn't really following triathlon when he was at the top of the sport, but the mental games that he played with the other athletes was, I mean, I get the impression they all hated him and yet they all, like, respected him because he was so good at just kind of getting in their head. I mean it's just incredible, isn't it? Did you? Did you? What did you? What was your take on his mental strategy? Because you obviously been following him for a lot more than than me what, what were your take on his mental games in the sport?

Ed Chang:

It was more of, I mean definitely the embrace the suck was meant as huge. I think from an age group perspective it's just like embrace the suck comes from recognizing, hey, you're going to suffer out there. This is not an easy sport if you're going to push yourself. But really when you feel it know, believe in your training, believe in what you've been doing up to that point and embrace it. It's going to suck but you're going to persevere and go forward. So I think that's definitely a mantra.

Ed Chang:

I love the kind of mental games People. I think he gets a. I would say Chris Smaka gets a bad rep because you know he was known as this brash kind of trash. He was kind of the first trash talking person if you can call it trash talking, but in triathlons there's a very much obviously. If you can call it trash talking, but in triathlons there's very much obviously in your civilized sport. But I think you know he talks about in the book. It's just you know he's professional.

Ed Chang:

And then I think what was really interesting when he described, especially in the Ironman racing, like as an Ironman pro you're racing out there, the same as with the age group. So if you have a bad day you can have age groups beating you Right, and it happens all the time. Right, people walk and you know age groups passing you, but for them this is professional, it's a livelihood. So he's going to use every advantage that he can, if that means kind of, you know, putting a little seed of doubt in the mind of his competitor. I think there's one story of him and norman statler, I think was the german, you know, pro athlete, two-time winner of kona and, I think, career race. I love this story where he would say they're on the podium talking, you know, you know on the podium, but on the on the press circuit he's like oh, norman Stadler, he's got a great race, he's got, you know, he's really well trained and but he's got the weight of, like Germany on his shoulders for this race. You know, they're really have big expectations for him, for him, because you know he's he's he they expect in the women that's a big weight to carry through throughout, right. So they'll say these little things. But you never know.

Ed Chang:

And it kind of comes back to Varlo, I think for Varlo as a brand, we talk about empowerment, but it's not just a tagline, it's not just like a selling point when we have a brand, ambassador, team meetings, what we tell all of our ambassadors and communities like we don't ask them. We don't ask them. We don't ask that you, you don't have to win the age. We don't ask them the wins you have, you know, to join the team, join our ambassador team. We don't ask that you make X posts per month. What we do ask is that you look to your left and look to your right and help and support your fellow human being. When you see them, so when you put on that piece of Varlow apparel, you feel supported and empowered and it's something as a partnership. When we, you know, we organize a get together. When we're at a race at Lake Placid, I get together all of our custom teams that wear Varlow apparel and we work with all the coaches and make sure that all the teams get to know each other, because they could be from Top Guns, they could be from no Limits or RTA Triathlon, but they're all wearing the Barlow. So when you see them, support each other.

Ed Chang:

But it comes from that mental bit. You know all the training, all the aerodynamics, all the lightweight carbon fiber is not going to do you a single bit of good when your mind goes to that deep, dark place in the middle of the course and you just give up and it's maybe that one little piece of Charlie or Farrah passing me and say, ed, keep it up, right, keep it up, mate. You know, keep going and keep pushing. And so it's those couple of words that you can hear.

Ed Chang:

That's the empowering, that's the secret weapon, it's what Mach identified. It's that secret. When Norman Statham's in that deep, dark place and he's thinking of the weight of Germany, kind of looking at him, maybe that's going to send him the other way, for Varlo is the opposite. We hope it'll bring you on the other side. You think about all the people that are empowering you. Maybe you see someone on their course and they gave you that slap on the back. But that that, it's that extra piece of performance, is that mental endurance that's so critical in, in, in the, in what we do.

Charlie Reading:

That's brilliant and that is why the triathlon community is so special. I remember when I'm in an early triathlon what it was my probably was my first off Ironman, I think and I was cramping up horribly on the run and I was and I made the mistake to stop the stretch and somebody just said, just keep moving. And I was like, oh, that's actually really. And I remember getting to the end thinking thank God for the advice that he gave me. And in fact, in Ironman South Africa in last April, which is where I qualified, somebody was doing the same thing and I just said to him just keep moving. And the following day I bumped into him at a cafe and he just was like, so grateful, I mean, mean, it felt like it's the easiest thing in the dude world to do, isn't it? But actually it's, it's, you know, it's a really lovely thing to receive.

Charlie Reading:

So we also have a tradition on the podcast where the last guest asks the next guest a question without knowing who that is. Now our last guest was this amazing south african guy, richard wright. He's recovered from terminal cancer diagnosis four times, but he's done five Ironmans while he's been going through four terminal diagnosis. So I think Claire's got Richard's questions, rather than just a single question.

Claire Fudge:

Yeah, these are good ones, Ed, so prepare yourself, OK. So the first one is who are you? And the second one is what do you like and dislike about yourself the most? So the first one is who are you, and the second one is what do you like and dislike about yourself the most? So the first one is who are you?

Ed Chang:

So who am I? I would say I'm a human being. I think that's something that one of our other co-founders, jake Brown, always says. I'm a human being, but I think it's because it relates to Varl, in the sense that, as a human, I think, as a brand, this is what we look towards. It's a very all humans seek a very basic thing, which is to feel like they're supported and they're seen and that people believe in them, right.

Ed Chang:

So, as a human, that's what I seek. I think that's what most humans seek, and it's something that you know as a brand we try to seek to empower. It's just that you know we want to, we want everyone to feel seen included and seen included, and we want to instill that sense of belief in everyone that we believe in you, we can, we believe you can achieve those goals that maybe others may not have believed in you or may have doubted. So it says who am I? I would say I'm a human. Those are, those are the things I I seek and those are the things that I try to kind of instill upon others fantastic.

Claire Fudge:

Yeah, I love that part about being being human and actually what that means, like what do we need as as as human beings? So the second part was what do you like and dislike about yourself the most?

Ed Chang:

it's a hard question yeah, that's a hard one, I would say. I would say I like myself because I am a community person. I'm more. I believe in getting back. I think those are the parts that I enjoy the most, I think, wherever I am.

Ed Chang:

It was actually when I left my law job, I think I thought about when I walked in my office, like literally the last time I walked in to unpack, bring my stuff home, and I had this odd feeling like what was I leaving behind? Was I leaving something behind? It was, you know, I didn't feel any particular sense of pride in cases that I've won or things that I've achieved as a lawyer per se, because as a lawyer, like it's really a thankless job because if you win something your clients say, oh, you should have won, I paid you a bowl of honey, so you should have won. So you don't really get much satisfaction of that and usually on the tail end of it is usually you probably spent too much money on like bill that comes in, so you end up kind of cutting the bill down. So there wasn't much of a sense of achievement there.

Ed Chang:

But I think walking out there it was the connections right I enjoyed. I made a lot of friends at the firm. I still am friends with people. It's that human connection. So I think that community aspect of myself, and it's something that carries forward through barlow, is what I like about myself. I'd say what I dislike is probably, like many triathletes, anxiety or just things. It's something you know. One of the mantras of our, of our company, is you seek progress, not perfection. It's something I have to work on, because sometimes you want to like perfect everything, or what's this or what could happen, what can that, and you kind of you'd become frozen into not inaction or overthinking things, and it's something I would say I tried to get myself out of. But I think it's also probably common to a lot of triathletes we tend to be focused and neurotic on certain things.

Charlie Reading:

I think those are very wise words. I remember I think I first saw progress, not perfection, perfection in a Bob Dr Bob Rotella book about golf. And that's my golf, my golf, golf, golf. Mantra is pro I'm now closer to the hole than I was. I'm not as close as I wanted to be, but it's progress, not perfection. So, and that is a great mantra for life. Where dovalo ship to the uk in europe as well is it? Is it a global brand?

Ed Chang:

yeah, absolutely yeah. So one of our major partners is super tribe, who's based in london. So you are you're kind beer kind of outfit with all the olympic athletes this year, which is pretty cool to see.

Charlie Reading:

But yes, we ship all over there all over the morning absolutely brilliant and if and if listeners want to find out more about varlo and also more about you, where's the best place to to direct them to?

Ed Chang:

check out varlo sportscom. That's our retail site if anyone's interested. In kind of that's the retail work that we do, but there's also links to custom apparel.

Charlie Reading:

So varloesportscom is where we do amazing. And then just one last thing to finish up what's the the single biggest mission for varlo? Where are you going next? What are you excited about in the future?

Ed Chang:

I think we just continue to grow the brand, I think, beyond triathlon, and kind of we were the growth. The goal is to grow beyond triathlon but also bring people back into it. So as we grow beyond, triathlon is still our roots, it's still where our passions will always lie. But I think it's kind of we want to grow it, grow the brand outside of the sport so that we can redirect people back into and bring visibility into the sport. Triathlon as a sport is very small. I think there's only a couple hundred thousand annual participants in the USA. It's probably a lot, I know it's a lot more in Europe, but as a sport it's a fairly small market. So our intention is to kind of bring more people into it. But even companies like, say, rei Co-op we sell cycling gear and they don't sell triathlon gear but we've heard a lot of interest from store managers, employees and staff. People ask about triathlons in certain markets, whether it be San Francisco, chicago, washington DC. So because we're in these places where other triathlon brands are not, we have the ability to drive interest and growth into the sport. And that's really, I think, where our passion lies.

Ed Chang:

And it also comes down to how we view partnerships. I mean we're partnering with, say, for example, supertri and REI. We're looking at ways to bring those two together. You know, talking to you know SuperTri purchased a lifetime triathlon in the US which encompasses Chicago Triathlon, long Triathlon, which is on the US Olympic course in Long Beach. So we're in talks with seeing how we can collab with REI and SuperTri.

Ed Chang:

Maybe hold events at an REI you bring more people into REI so that achieves their goals of you know they always need traffic and visibility into their REI stores, but often the SuperTri perspective it brings people outside of the sport with eyes on it. If you have an event at an REI Chicago, you have a lot of people who may be interested in cycling or running. They know that Super Tri Tri Chicago is the largest triathlon in North America with over 7,000 participants. Like, oh hey, they have a sprint triathlon, they have a kids race, they have a city bike category where you don't even need a bike. You ride the chicago city bikes to do your bike. You don't even need your bike so anyone can jump in and do it and that that's. That's kind of where varlo sees herself.

Charlie Reading:

We see that we see ourselves at that as a hub of knowledge, the hub of community connection and we want to grow the sport by bringing you know kind of visibility from outside and growing in the sport from the outside in Amazing and I mean it's such an amazing sport for reasons we've already talked about, but it's a sport that needs brands doing that because, as we've found over in the conversations we've had with lots of people, actually there was, it almost seems to have meant that a lot of people have gone away from triathlon to more ultra running and all that sort of stuff. So I love this concept of of of offering offering much more than just triathlete stuff, but with a view to bringing them back into triathlon. So, ed, it's been really fascinating chatting to you. I've loved talking about the business side of things as much as the triathlon side of things. So I wish you huge success with with valo and I look forward to seeing you.

Charlie Reading:

Ironman austria June, I would love to do it. No, but thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting to you.

Ed Chang:

Absolutely Thanks for having me.

Charlie Reading:

So what did you make of the interview with Ed?

Claire Fudge:

Yeah, it was a really good and a really different interview. Actually, just listening, you know how he's moved from his high-flying job as a lawyer, or career as a lawyer, into a triathlon clothing brand, so it was really interesting, I thought, to kind of hear how somebody kind of progresses down that route. But also, one thing that really stood out is is this kind of I think he said to be great at something? I think he was quoting somebody else, wasn't he? But to be great at something, you have to love it and the fact that he's found something that he actually really loves doing and getting that community just came across so much, didn't it in terms of creating that community, and he seems to be involved in so many different communities as well yeah, I think I thought it was really interesting that, yes, he, when he was a lawyer, triathlon was his escape and now he almost doesn't need triathlon as an escape because he's doing something he's so passionate about.

Charlie Reading:

So I thought that was that was interesting. I expected him to say from a psychological point of view, that running you know, running a startup was completely different and completely different concept to being a lawyer. But he seemed to think it was. He was like I couldn't get my head around how, how that was. I think I sort of asked the question a second time and I still got the same answer. It didn't make any sense to me because it feels like it would be so different, but but clearly in his mind it was, it was the same. So I thought it was really interesting. What else, what else did you get from the conversation?

Claire Fudge:

I thought you know one of the the biggest. Oh, there's a number of big things actually, but one of the things I also got from from a business perspective is actually how he was talking about connections, so how he was connecting like he was. You know, he's involved in the board of directors on the rails to trails and the the bicycle.

Claire Fudge:

REI, I think yes and actually how he comes across actually when he's talking, actually as this connector and he brings all of those connections into this new business and I just thought that was really interesting the way that he was talking about it, because actually when you're growing a new business, you need all of those different connections but connecting out to bring people back in. I thought that was just a really interesting concept. I know you often talk about partnerships like what's your, you know what's your take on that in terms of going out to some slightly different partnerships and bringing people back in well, I do.

Charlie Reading:

You know what it was particularly so. He touched on this a few times, didn't he? Particularly at the end where he was talking about working with with other firms. You know, for example, getting people into their, into a shop and yeah. So so we talk about it in the trusted team. We talk about the partnership playbook and that's basically finding other companies that work with your ideal clients but aren't in competition with you, because that way you know if you can build a partnership with a firm that has a room full of your ideal clients with a firm that has a room full of your ideal clients, in one, you know, interaction, you might find a hundred or a hundred thousand or a million new clients, as opposed to going out and trying to get those clients on a one-to-one basis.

Charlie Reading:

So I thought that was really good. He you're absolutely right, and I've no doubt his legal background was was a factor in that. You know, let's, how can we build different partnerships with different companies and bring people back into so that they come back to varlo, they come back to triathlon and build that community? I think that was. I think that was really interesting. It was one of the things that I wrote down, but I thought was something that they're clearly very strong on there. The other thing I thought was interesting was the the ai conversation, which you know bringing it back, which I squeezed in, which wasn't even on the agenda. I didn't warn him about that.

Claire Fudge:

Like how did you shoot your net in? But?

Charlie Reading:

it's just. Like you know, I thought he actually gave a very similar message to Colin Cook, albeit Colin was talking about it from a coaching point of view. You know, use AI to do the data-driven stuff, allow the human to do the stuff that the human does better, and there you're doing exactly the same from a business point of view. How can we use AI to enhance the human being, as opposed to replace the human being? I thought that was really really brilliant. So, yeah, I thought it was a good conversation, and I think it's. I mean, it must be a challenging sector to build into, and yet it strikes me that it's those partnerships that are really taking them to another level, which is which I think is really interesting, and, ultimately, that's why Colin spoke so highly of them absolutely, and I think that comes back to those two other things is how you connect people, and you connect people then around that brand, but also just being human.

Claire Fudge:

You know he talks about racing and actually it's so true. You gave some examples and I know you know in the past I've had people say the same in terms of, you know, just keep going, whatever it might be, although I might be angry with it at the time for them to say that to me. Actually, it was probably quite a nice thing to do, but you know, that's really interesting about that people need people to be human, or humans to be human, and that also came back in his AI conversation, didn't it as well? We need the human being plus the AI.

Charlie Reading:

Well, and it came back from Colin's question to him, not Colin's question, richard's question to him, which is who are you a human being? And I thought he was going to go on and say we do the piece around human being, not human doing and connecting more with you know what's really important, as opposed to just achieving goals or owning things. So, yeah, really good guy, insightful guy, but also really interesting to kind of dive into a business conversation in a bit more detail again. So, another brilliant interview, another really fascinating guest, and obviously he gave you the place to find their. Check out the valo website, so go check out that. And also on instagram they are valo dot apparel, so go check them out. A really interesting company.

Charlie Reading:

And in the meantime, until the next episode, keep on training if you want us to keep getting amazing guests onto the Business of Endurance podcast. We don't ask for you to pay for us. We don't ask for patronage. All we ask for is that you subscribe to the podcast, ideally on Apple. Give us a five-star rating because it shows us you care, and if you've got time, leave us a comment. One word is fine, something like inspiring or amazing or something like that, but we really do appreciate it and it will help us to continue to deliver amazing guests on what we hope you find to be an amazing podcast. Thanks very much.