Business of Endurance

From Spectator to World Champion: Kathleen McCartney's Ironman Journey

• Charlie Reading • Season 9 • Episode 4

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What does it take to endure? To win? And to keep coming back? In this episode, we sit down with one of the most iconic figures in endurance sport - Ironman champion Kathleen McCartney. 

You may know her as the winner of the legendary 1982 Ironman, the race that gave us 'The Crawl.' But her story didn’t stop at the finish line. Kathleen shares the mindset that took her from an inexperienced college student to an Ironman world champion in just a year. 

She opens up about coming back to racing after kids, rebuilding herself through endurance sport after divorce, and the wisdom she’s gained from coaching. She reveals the greatest lessons she learned from legendary mentors, including Bill Bachrach, and the surprising friendship that brought her back to Kona decades later. 

Whether you’re an athlete, entrepreneur, or someone looking to overcome life’s challenges, Kathleen’s story will inspire you to redefine what’s possible. 

Highlights:

  • Winning 1982 Ironman: A Shared Moment of Sporting History
  • Returning Stronger: Ironman Comebacks Through Motherhood and Divorce
  • Friendship Forged in Competition: Completing Kona with Julie Moss
  • Coaching with Purpose: TriDot and Smarter Training Principles
  • Cancer, Community, and Comebacks: The Mike Levine Story
  • Mental Strength for Life: Endurance Lessons Beyond the Finish Line

Links:
Connect with Kathleen through Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kathmccartney/?hl=en

Connect with Kathleen through LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleen-mccartney-94652268/

Connect with Kathleen through TriDot: https://www.tridot.com/coach/kathleen-mccartney

Please Subscribe to Business of Endurance on Apple Podcasts, leave a comment, and give us a 5-Star review.

This episode was sponsored by The Trusted Team and 4th Discipline

Kathleen McCartney:

the win, the win, the win. 100. I worked really hard for that win. I trained really well for the win. So did julie. It just happened to like that's how it turned out. On that race day, you know, I really feel like we shared the iconic moment. I don don't care about the attention. You know like people will even leave me out of an entire conversation of the 1982 World Championship finish and talk about Julie.

Charlie Reading:

I don't have a problem with that and to keep coming back. In this episode we sit down with one of the most iconic figures in endurance sport, ironman champion Kathleen McCartney. You may know her as the winner of the legendary 1982 Ironman race, the race that gave us the crawl, but her story didn't stop at that finish line. Kathleen shares the mindset that took her from an inexperienced college student to an Ironman world champion in just a year. She opens up about coming back to racing after having children, rebuilding herself for endurance sport after divorce and the wisdom she's gained from coaching. She reveals the greatest lessons she learned from legendary mentors, including Bill Bacharach, and the surprising friendship that brought her back to Kona decades later. Whether you're an athlete, an entrepreneur or someone looking to overcome life's challenges, kathleen's story will inspire you to redefine what's possible. So let's dive in to this conversation with the legend that is Kathleen McCartney.

Charlie Reading:

Do you know what? When we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor before we dive into today's episode, if you're enjoying Claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and make it even better is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you when you subscribe, we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the Business of Endurance community. Let's dive in.

Charlie Reading:

So, kathleen, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. I am really looking forward to this conversation. I think this is going to be a really special discussion around, particularly going back to the early days of Ironman, which I absolutely love, and that's where I really want to start. Early days of Ironman, which I absolutely love, and that's where I really want to start, but in fact, like kind of what I want, I'd love to know the story about how you ended up getting into Ironman, because I think it's it's quite a magical introduction. So but tell us, how did you end up getting into the, the sport of triathlon and Ironman in particular?

Kathleen McCartney:

Well, I had never even heard of a triathlon back in until like 1980. And so for me, making a decision the following year to do an Ironman was something that was just pretty. It was nowhere on my radar at all. I went over to Kona in 1981 to watch the Ironman for the very first time. It was on the big island of Hawaii, and so this was all just so exciting to me. But I had no intention of doing an Ironman. It wasn't, like I said, nowhere on the radar, but the fact that I'd never seen an Ironman, I'd never watched it on TV, I didn't really know the magic and the allure and the draw and just everything that Ironman offers to spectators. So I was there and I just thought, god, these people during race week, like how could they even possibly run a marathon in this heat and the humidity? And I just felt kind of exhausted being a spectator. So it all again. It just reinforced how impossible and crazy and it was all so new.

Kathleen McCartney:

Well, on race morning I decided to watch the race from the seawall. So I'm just sitting on the seawall, I can see, you know, captain Bean's boat. You know, 1.2 miles out to sea. You know, we're kind of like watching the sun come up. And then, as the athletes started to go into the water, I started to feel this ridiculous energy and it was like these people were like terrified, excited, probably just felt so empowered and and I don't know.

Kathleen McCartney:

I think everyone's energy was just radiating to me and I just started to feel this kind of like burning desire to like of like burning desire to like wish that I was in that water instead of on seawall and I just thought, wow, these people are just doing something so impossible and so crazy and I don't want to be a spectator in life, like I'm going to do that. And then, when the gun went off, I was just like, oh my God, oh yeah, yeah, I'm doing this. Next year, I'm going to be in that water, I'm going to swim out there to Captain Bean's boat get out there and I'm going to do an Ironman. And that it literally started just with the energy of the athletes and the visual spectacle and energy that I felt for doing something that seemed impossible to me.

Charlie Reading:

And what had taken you to Kona to watch the Ironman in the first place. What took you there?

Kathleen McCartney:

I was going there to watch a boyfriend race in his second Ironman, so that was my introduction to the sport as well was through him.

Charlie Reading:

And Claire and I both know, obviously, what that seawall is like and the start and the just I mean just just for those people that have never witnessed that as like so we've never really, we've not really spoken about spectating during that race.

Kathleen McCartney:

Just try to describe what's magical about that, that start of the race oh, oh well, the mass start, which most people are no longer familiar with because they took the mass start out of Ironman. And so when you're seeing, I think there were like 365 people or 385 people in 1981. And so to see that many people all lined up together, and so to see that many people all lined up together, you know that in itself was just incredible to see and everybody just looked so fit. You know, they're just like going down the steps and getting into the water and you're like who are these people, like what makes them tick? And then there's a helicopter, abc helicopter overhead, and ABC Wide World of Sports is there. And you know just something to see a live event like that, when you had no idea what you're about to see, was awe inspiring.

Claire Fudge:

I think I always say that to be a spectator is actually a really hard day, but it is amazing, isn't it? To follow, follow a competitor. Maybe, Kathleen there was an ulterior motive there to your boyfriend bringing you along to spectate at the event to become the next athlete.

Kathleen McCartney:

Yeah, I don't think he would have ever had guessed that.

Claire Fudge:

Well, I'm really intrigued. I love the history of Ironman and obviously we're going're going to come on to one of the amazing stories. But females in Ironman, when you first started competing, what kind of numbers were there Like you know, how many women were there in a field Like? What did that look like?

Kathleen McCartney:

It was very small field in 1982. When I raced, there were, I think, 565 total athletes and and there were only like 51 women, so it was like about 10%, and so I'm kind of surprised that those numbers are not 50-50. They have not been 50-50. And that is my dream to like grow the sport, motivate women to find the time, the space to get this in their lives, whether it's an Ironman or 70.3 or a triathlon. But I would love to see those numbers be, you know, 50, 50.

Claire Fudge:

I mean, those numbers sound really tiny and I totally understand what you're saying about. You know still that hasn't it's increased, but you don't still see those that that split. When you decided you were going to do that, did people then think you were absolutely mad?

Kathleen McCartney:

Yeah for sure. Like my family could not understand it, my friends couldn't understand it. Like how could? They wasn't a big thing, it wasn't mainstream at all. But I got so much encouragement from all my loved ones and friends and then I immediately had a very supportive community to train with. I was the only woman in the group but because my boyfriend at the time had done two Ironman races, you know, I basically was just kind of thrown in the pack and I thought, oh, wow, In addition to wanting to do something really hard, like the training is really hard and really long. So my whole sense of distance like oh, you go out on 60 mile bike rides or a hundred mile ride, Okay, Well, that's just what you do if you're training for Ironman.

Claire Fudge:

So I was kind of just like said to the wolves and thrown right in yeah, it sounds like you were, and especially with that group of men to train around. I guess you had to, you know, had to keep up.

Kathleen McCartney:

Yeah it was scary.

Claire Fudge:

So what happened from that moment when you you know you'd watched, you'd watched your partner at this event, you wanted to to do Ironman. You just talked about starting training. So what happened in the 1982 Ironman World Championships? What happened then? So talk us through the day, what you were feeling and, of course, what happened towards the end as well.

Kathleen McCartney:

Yes, yes. So that year, that day in 1981, when I decided to do an Ironman, of course my goal was just to finish right. I mean that would be audacious to think anything else. I mean, I kind of came up, let's wrote out some rough numbers, you know, like from day one I'm like, wow, I think I could do this in like 15 hours, even though I wasn't a swimmer or a cyclist or runner at the time.

Kathleen McCartney:

But then over the course of the year I just found incredible gifts of strength, endurance, determination, desire, passion, and I just loved it so much and I really made a lot of progress. So by the time I got to Kona in 1982, I did show up thinking that I could win the race because I had won all the races that I had entered. I entered two half Ironman races and won them both, and in one of them, the Navy SEAL Super Frog, I got ninth overall for men and women. So I kind of had a lot of positivity going into the race. So I've showed up and like, yeah, if I race my own race and have a great race, like I could be first, which was kind of crazy to think that that could happen in a year.

Charlie Reading:

So tell us then. So you've gone into it, going right, I could win this. Tell us the story of how that day played out.

Kathleen McCartney:

Well, it didn't go as planned, as you could probably attest to. Like you know how many, how many races do you do that are like your dream race, you know? Right, the story would be too long, but I did have what I thought was a food poisoning event and ended up in the hospital the two days before the race. So I had to change my mental perspective and goal from wanting to win to wanting to just finish again. So I got out of the hospital after being on IVs the night before, I bought out on Friday at noon and then I just prayed for a horrific storm so they could postpone it, you know, one more day, so I could get my strength back and like maybe even eat food and drink. But that didn't happen. So I showed up at the start line going like I don't, I don't care, I'm going to like forget about what I've gone through the last two days and just like, I've got to finish this race. So that was my mindset and I think that's something that has been so important and so valuable throughout my entire life and career is to just say, hey, you know you may be dealt with something really, really unexpected and some challenges to overcome, but like figure it out and always get to the finish line and never, ever give up hope. And so that was such a great way to kind of like start my day, because I learned something and my very first Ironman before I even started it's all about your attitude Like you can't. I couldn't change anything else, but I could control my attitude. So I went into the attitude just like go for it, give it your best.

Kathleen McCartney:

I had a terrible swim Like I went at least 12 minutes slower than I expected. I felt so weak. I remember getting out of the swim and feeling like, oh my God, this is what it must feel to finish an Ironman. I was just completely wiped out. I wasn't a strong swimmer and so that was part of the problem, but that took so much out of me. So I was kind of like well, okay, I found out that I was like 21 minutes behind the lead women and I'm like okay, so I just got on the bike and, because I hadn't really had an opportunity to eat or drink for a few days because I was so massively sick, I just started feeling better and better and stronger throughout the bike and I'm like wow, I feel like I'm getting my power back and as I ate and drank and everything, I just felt stronger and stronger and by the time I got off the bike I didn't know it, but I'd actually set a record on the bike and I was still 21 minutes behind the leader because Julie Moss ended up riding the bike one minute slower than me. So, you know, I was still, like you know, not in a front running position, but I went into the transition room where you actually like change your clothes. You know we had transitions where we wore swimsuits, changed into our clothes, then got off the bike and went into a changing room, changed into clothes. So our transitions were quite long.

Kathleen McCartney:

But I got out of T2 when it was out by the hotel at the time it's called the Connoisseur, and I had to run up a hill to start the run and I just I'll never forget it I felt like I hadn't even been on my bike. I felt like I was starting the marathon with fresh legs and I'm like what the heck? This feels amazing. So that was another surprise. So I was just getting stronger and stronger throughout the day.

Kathleen McCartney:

I found out that I was 21 minutes behind. There were some like. Found out that I was 21 minutes behind. There were some like, but I was like maybe I was like in sixth place, so that was very inspiring. By the time I got into mile six, I was in second place behind Julie Moss and I started 21 minutes behind Julie at the start of the run and my attitude was just go my pace. I know what I need to do today. I've trained for this. I'm going to believe in my own pacing and nutrition and I'm just going to go out there and do my best and hope it's good enough to win.

Charlie Reading:

I think I'm right in saying that you overturned the biggest margin of in the world championship history. I think that 21 minutes is the greatest that anyone's come back from. At what point did you think actually I could potentially win this? And then, what was your experience of that incredible finish line moment?

Kathleen McCartney:

this changed for me when I got to see Julie for the first time. So Julie was leading, I, and at mile 18, there's a great big Bud Light inflatable can. It was two story high because at the at that time Bud Light was the title sponsor, so 80s. And so I'm running towards the Bud Light can and Julie is now turning around. Now she's got eight miles to go and I'm like, as Julie's approaching me, I'm like, oh, she does not look good, like I could see it in her posture. She was, you know, kind of shuffling along and I'm like, hmm, that kind of gave me, like, wow, okay, I looked at, I looked at my watch, you know, caught a little, you know kind of shuffling along and I'm like, hmm, that kind of gave me like, wow, okay, I looked at my watch, you know, caught a little, you know, looked at my watch, said okay, I'm going to see how long it takes me to get there. And after I came back to that same point, I'm like, wow, eight miles to go and I'm eight minutes down. So I made up a lot of time and I felt great and I thought Julie so, but I made a decision at that point. I'm sure she made a decision, a point. At that point I think Julie was like, oh, wow, I better pick up my pace. And I'm like, oh, I feel great, I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing because you know, I didn't want to blow up. So, anyway, the race continues on.

Kathleen McCartney:

Julie has a helicopter on her and I could see that like at one point I had a after the men's race finish that there's another helicopter out there and I'm like, oh, our helicopters are getting closer together. But that was the only time that I could like see where she was, because no one. There's no camera crew on me, there's only one camera crew out there. Because they didn't care that much about the women's race at all. It had been covered as a men's race and they would roll the women's finish at the credits, so they'd never really covered a woman's race before. So I could see where Julie was and I'm like, wow, I feel like I'm gaining on her, because I could see from a distance where her helicopter was. But I didn't have any idea that she was coming unglued.

Kathleen McCartney:

So the next big moment came as I'm, you know, running my own race when I got to Hot Corner, when I got to Ali'i Drive, it was now dark and I was so excited to be there. But I'm like, oh, I haven't caught her yet. And now I know I only have a quarter mile to go. I had no idea that Julie had just you know, she'd been walking and going. How far back is she? And I saw this on Rival Sports, that's how I know that but I had no idea that she was suffering or coming unglued. So I got to Hot Corner and that's the point where Julie fell for the first time and everyone at Hot Corner had seen and witnessed this terribly sad falling of Julie on the ground. It took her so long to get back up. I think it took a minute and a half to get back up off the ground.

Kathleen McCartney:

So when I get to Hot Corner I'm so excited I'm still giving up hope I can catch her. But I get to hot corner and I expect people to be like cheering for me and people were just like solemn, like no one was really clapping. They just witnessed probably one of the most emotional things I've ever seen. And so then I'm like, well, this is odd. And I go around the corner and then someone yelled out from the crowd hey, you can still catch her. And I'm like what does that mean? But it gave me some type of an adrenaline rush, like I had already gone through the whole process. Am I going fast enough? Is this as fast as I can go? And I thought I was. And when this person from the crowd shouted out to me that I could still catch her, I just got some extra. I got like a turbo boost and I think I just picked up my legs higher and I strided faster and I just that gift that someone gave me of encouragement like helped propel me to the finish line.

Kathleen McCartney:

So I ended up running down about the quarter mile to go. I'm still running, still. No, julie, still think I'm in second place. And all of a sudden I had to stop because it was dark. There were bright lights in the trees that were mounted by ABC and I couldn't see a thing. And all of a sudden I stopped and I'm like this is weird. Like there's a camera crew right on me, like I could touch the ABC truck, but where's the? I had to stop and say where's the finish line.

Kathleen McCartney:

And the ABC camera crew had just, we had just unknowingly passed Julie. I had unknowingly passed Julie. She's on the ground surrounded by people and I didn't see her. So I'm just stopping and I happened to stop right on the finish line.

Kathleen McCartney:

The truck pulls away, they pull up the finish banner and they had already announced Julia's winner. Like the last time she started sprinting and I didn't know that, I didn't hear that, but she was only, you know, 25 yards from the finish line and that's where she fell for the last time. I passed her unknowingly, got to the finish line and they just like held up the finish tape and told me that I was an Ironman world champion and I'm like I got so excited You've probably seen the video or the photos and I'm jumping up and down with my arm over my head and I'm so excited taking it all in and that. But then I'm like but wait, like where's Julie? So I had no idea what had happened. And then I learned it all after the joy and excitement of being told I won, when I thought I was coming in for second well, you must.

Charlie Reading:

You must also be the only person that's ever won the Ironman World Championship without actually knowing's ever won the Ironman World Championship without actually knowing you've won the Ironman World Championship.

Kathleen McCartney:

Exactly, exactly. And then Julie and I still have the smallest margin of victory at the Ironman World Championship 29 seconds, which is amazing that that is held at World Championships all these years.

Charlie Reading:

I mean, if any listener is listening to this and has not seen this footage on youtube, you absolutely must. I mean it's just. I mean it's the iconic moment, isn't it? And and and? Ultimately, it was that moment that got mark allen into racing and becoming the greatest of all time. Arguably, that moment is so iconic in the sport and it captured the imagination of so many people, but ultimately, it was actually the footage of julie that created that iconic moment, wasn't it so I suppose the question I wanted to ask you was you ended up as the winner of that race, but all the attention went to julie, and what happened to julie and her battling to get over that finish line. Given the choice, which, which would you take? The, the, the kind of the, the iconic conversation piece, or the win for the Ironman World Championship?

Kathleen McCartney:

there has never, ever even been one doubt in my mind the win, the win, the win, 100%. I worked really hard for that win. I trained really well for the win. The win, a hundred percent. I worked really hard for that win. I trained really well for the win, so did Julie, and it just. It just happened to like that's how it turned out on that race day.

Kathleen McCartney:

But you know, I really feel like we shared the iconic moment. I don't care about the attention, you know like people will even leave me out of an entire conversation of the 1982 world championship finish and talk about Julie. I don't have a problem with that, because I feel like I went out there and helped create an iconic finish. That's the thing you can't really extract. We were racing.

Kathleen McCartney:

So to take Julie out of the equation or me out of the equation, the reason that she pushed herself to the point of crawling and falling was because she was trying to win that race as much as I was. She wanted to win that race and she was pushing herself because she knew that I was on her heels, and so we brought out our fastest race out of each other that day. You know, could have easily been Julia, could have easily been me one way or the other, but the fact that we were racing you know this, you know this was. This was a race, not just. I want to get to the finish. So I feel that we shared an iconic moment, important to the history of our sport, and I'm totally fine with you know, julie getting that attention. It was so dramatic and beautiful. I love part of it with her.

Claire Fudge:

It's just amazing to watch that back and actually when I watched it in the early days of myself doing Ironman, that was just like wow, the power of women at that time to like get across the finish line. So that is just amazing to even go back to today and watch. What do you think? That? That iconic finish and people now to this day going back and watching that. What do you think that's done for not only the sport of Ironman but for females in particular? Because I know that really struck me. So what do you feel that's done for females in sport?

Kathleen McCartney:

That's one of the greatest things I feel most proud of and that I hold so close to my heart, is knowing that Julie and I inspired so many women to go out there and try and find something impossible and find a way to get to a start line and find a way to make it your dream, and so I think that has been like one of the greatest things that I know we both share and take away from that, because we woke up people off their couches like that coverage inspired people who would never have thought of doing a triathlon, let alone Ironman, and people like, well, she looks like my next-door neighbor or you know, if she can do it, I can do it and I and I think that's what really started getting men and women like out of their living rooms and on the start lines, and so to be a part of that movement is, for me, one of the greatest parts of my little contribution.

Claire Fudge:

I totally agree. I think it's been a massive, a massive contribution to the sport, certainly with females in Ironman. So my background, as you may know, is I'm a dietician and nutritionist and I would love to know what did you do back then in terms of sports nutrition. So what did you? Because you were saying you just you know, you'd had this period of 48 hours or more, like you know, with a food poisoning. You hadn't eaten anything, but you were getting stronger over the race.

Kathleen McCartney:

So, more like you know, with a food poisoning, you hadn't eaten anything but you were getting stronger over the race. So what did you eat and drink during that time, during the race? And and just to go back to that point, I did later learn that I did not have food poisoning. I had exhibited the same signs of food poisoning massively. But the same thing happened in 1983 at exactly the same timing, and it was a case of nurse, and I had been like mad, like I thought I was calm but apparently I wasn't, so I thought I didn't figure that out until it happened with the same timing, wednesday night, thursday morning, massive, yeah. So anyway, got it, people, you got to, really Did you find a way to beat that, those nerves.

Charlie Reading:

Later on, Did you sub, did? Was there something that helped you solve that problem?

Kathleen McCartney:

It was really, really hard for me because I would feel that I was calm, but internally I wasn't. Like I would just go down, walk down to, like you know, to dig me beach, and like I'd start feeling, oh my God. So it's, you know, the pressure. The pressure to win and the pressure to want to win is so difficult to deal with and, uh, I didn't overcome it until when I came back in 2012.

Kathleen McCartney:

Even when I came back in 2003, which we might talk about later as, like I'd taken 15 years off of racing but I wanted to come back as, like this is Iron Mom right, and I was approached by I think at the time it was NBC Sports to do a package, because they're Julie and I both decided to come back as moms and I said you know what? I can't, please don't cover me, because I have a really bad case of nerves and I'm doing this for my children, like I want them to see me train, I want them to see me sacrifice, I want them to learn the life lessons, but I'm afraid, if you put the TV on me and that that will add too much pressure. And so that was my first experience of saying, okay, don't, you know you have nothing. You're not going to win this thing. You're here for your family. I never slept the night before the race, but I didn't have the massive nerves, so I was able to overcome it by taking off the pressure of winning.

Claire Fudge:

Yeah, so, so, like, so important. You mentioned there about your comeback in 2003 and then 2012. Is that is that right? Yeah, so when you'd been out to sport, you'd had a family. What made you kind of make that decision that you really want to get back into the sport?

Kathleen McCartney:

I never wanted to leave the sport and I felt that I never really did Like through the 80s. I had, you know, I think I did six Ironmans from like 82 to 88, with my PR in 88. And I always felt like an Ironman triathlete. Like there was never a time where I, like took off my Ironman hat. It was just like I am an Ironman. I live my life like an Ironman.

Kathleen McCartney:

I live my life by the values and the dreams and the hopes and ambitions and community, and I like shared that with my children, kept it as a standard for myself and the one thing that I always kept with me from my very first race was the feeling that I could do really hard things and I wanted to do really hard things and that was my life goal to know that I had to keep my fitness and my mental toughness, to know that at any point any day. If someone asked me, kathleen, you're going to have to get up in the morning and do an Ironman, I always wanted to say yes and that has stayed with me. Like I want to have the mentality and the fitness. I don't train like I'm doing an Ironman, but I have the gift now that that mental toughness and the lifestyle fitness to be able to say yeah, I could do. That gift now, that that mental toughness and the lifestyle fitness to be able to say yeah, I could do that and that's been huge for me.

Charlie Reading:

I think it's absolutely brilliant and I know when we were chatting in Kona, you also talked about how amazing the community was that are around the people. Just tell me a little bit about that before I've got a question, a sort of follow-up question for it. But what, what, what does that community mean to you and and what have you learned about that community?

Kathleen McCartney:

that community is one of the strongest, most inspiring, collaborative, supportive community you can ever be a part of and throughout my life, I've gone through some really glorious and joyful moments and, like everybody you know, like a part of and throughout my life, I've gone through some really glorious and joyful moments and, like everybody you know, like a lot of people, have had some really difficult hardships and things to overcome in many ways. And when I was at my lowest point after going through a divorce in 2010, I mean, boy, I really hit a low point emotionally. Physically, I actually honestly I couldn't get a grip on like the mental anguish and losing weight, like to a point where I just thought, oh my God, I might die. It was, it was very dire and I thought I have to do something to. I couldn't get a grip on it. I had to do something to like change my life and find my touchstone of empowerment because, I don't know, I just got hit really hard.

Kathleen McCartney:

So I thought, well, I had this back surgery, so I thought I could never do an Ironman again, but it was at a time where I thought I have to focus on what I can do and I know that I can swim and I can know that I can bike, but I didn't for years. I thought I had given up my dream of Ironman. So I thought I can walk, I can walk the run. So like I need to do this Ironman, like I need that sense of empowerment, I need the feeling like I'm doing something that resonates with me, to my core. And so I decided to go back and sign up for another Ironman and bring myself back to life. And it truly did. It was transformative, brought me back to life. I got healthy again, I flourished, and it was because of the community there. Like anyone, every friend, anyone that's ever done an Ironman, they are your friend for life. Anyone in the community would do anything for you. And so I immediately had that community again and it was absolutely the best decision I ever made.

Charlie Reading:

Amazing, and I think I'm right in saying that was the year that you then ended up doing it with Julie, isn't it? And so what was it like to go back and race as friends rather than competitors and kind of, yeah, what did that whole race and journey to the start line mean to you?

Kathleen McCartney:

That was one of the most magnificent races for me for so many reasons, and when I decided to go back and made that decision to do Ironman, I thought immediately of like oh my gosh, I heard Julie had moved to San Diego and so it was just like. Such an incredible opportunity. So I called Rep. I'm like hey, julie, I'm going to do Ironman in 2012. Like, would you, would you want to do it with me? And she's like oh, no, no, no, I'm retired, do not want to do Ironman, but I would love to train with you. That sounds amazing. I'd love to support you on your journey and I'd love to train with you. So we had this most incredible for like.

Kathleen McCartney:

For the first time in our lives, we became friends. We had never had an opportunity to be friends. We lived in different, usually lived in different places. We're doing different things in our lives. So it was such a beautiful full circle opportunity for us to go from rivals, because the media loved to paint us as rivals.

Kathleen McCartney:

Like every time we'd race, it would be like oh, you know let's, you know who's? So it's always that. But that wasn't really how it was for us, and so we were just so happy to have this opportunity to like become friends and then over over time, julie got so excited about it that she decided to to race again, and that's when things really blew up for both of us, because our community and Ironman embraced us and we had like these glorious sponsorships that year and it was just so much fun and we were put into the spotlight together and had just such a beautiful platform to share our story, our new story, our new chapter, with the world and like inspire people again in a different way, and so that was just a beautiful, beautiful opportunity.

Claire Fudge:

What did it feel like to kind of come back, having had a family? Like you know, for those people out there and there's so many women, certainly of my age, that have kind of come out of sport, been racing Ironman at a high level, come out and never really quite get back into it Like any advice that you would have in terms of really busy mums that are athletes trying to get back in and a balance you know as well.

Kathleen McCartney:

Yeah, it's so hard to find that work life family balance and try to put our own you know, our our own wants and goals in there.

Kathleen McCartney:

I just found that I had to get up so early, you know, just getting up super early in the morning, like before anyone was up, and doing workouts, and then doing workouts when the kids were at school, and just like not carving out more time than you need. You know, just like I remembered, I kind of waited to go back in 2003 until I had all three of my kids in the same school so that I could really make it work. So that's that's what I did when I came back in 2003. I just knew it was going to be a big juggling match to try to put all the pieces together, because the kids were also doing all their extracurricular activities and driving to schools and doing stuff, and so it was a balancing act. But I did it early in the morning and on my trainer and, you know, on a weekend day, you know, I got a babysitter and, you know, did the training that I needed, you know, for a few hours to get the long rides in.

Claire Fudge:

I guess all those years of you know this routine that you have as an athlete. I guess you then put that routine around your family and the training just extra layers, isn't it? What sort of any advice that you'd have for people that are still doing endurance events, because many people actually, you know this spans, you know decades, doesn't it for people in terms of sports. But what you know any advice that you'd have the people to really kind of keep in the best health in terms of endurance sports.

Kathleen McCartney:

You know, as you're getting older in a sport, yes, I think that continuing training throughout life like just because you finished your Ironman or your 70.3 or your Olympic race or your whatever you did, whatever your goal was your marathon just because you finished it doesn't mean that you should stop training altogether. So I think it's really important after the, after the big goals, even if you don't have any big goals, you know, keep it as a lifestyle, like embrace it but make it work, like you don't always have to swim, bike and run. Maybe you're just going to run for an hour, maybe you're just going to swim and bike or be on your trainer, but try to incorporate the training that you loved and enjoyed to do for your big events into your lifestyle, even even one hour a day. And you know it, if we break it down like that, it's has to be kind of manageable and bite-sized so you can for sure get it done. So I've just tried to maintain, you know, a level of fitness, doing something throughout my life.

Charlie Reading:

And psychologically with that sort of same problem. I see friends and hear stories of people where, where you know like particularly as somebody that was winning races, I've never had that problem, but like those people that are used to finishing on the podiums and then they get to a point where their motivation they lose motivation because they're not going to be on the podium and yet you've come back with a very different mindset in those other races. Have you got any advice for the sort of psychology of those people that want to carry on racing but need to find a different reason because it's not necessarily about being on the podium?

Kathleen McCartney:

right. I mean I was on the podium throughout the 80s and then when I came back like to do my like the iron mom race and and that I had some back issues, I will never be a competitive athlete now just because of my spine, but I can jog, walk whatever. So I have given up like being on the podium but I don't care, like that's not what drives me. What drives me is the feeling that I get from the training and the racing and the community. It's not just like, oh, I need to do this for my fitness, it's something that truly that I truly love and I love sharing with others.

Kathleen McCartney:

And so it's if you can find your, you know, the passion for what you do and just be cognizant of how does that make me feel? How do I feel when I'm out there with my friends at the pool or, you know, on a bike ride or on a run or by myself? How do I feel after that workout? I mean I feel great. I love how training makes me feel, and then there's nothing like a race, a race of any distance, with the energy, the community, and so I absolutely love, I love racing and it's really basically the way it makes me feel and it's just such a positive thing for me, it's empowering, it's energizing. When I'm training and racing and like even in everyday life and I don't have a goal, I just feel like I'm just firing on all cylinders. I feel really alive and so I would just welcome everybody to kind of like try to find that for themselves, like the joy and the simplicity of doing something so invigorating and unique because you coach and mentor.

Claire Fudge:

now is that correct? Yeah and um, I mean just the story that you've told, and you know there's so many parts for me that's come out of this story that you've been telling already in terms of you know, you've got to deal with the unexpected, you just got to keep going. You've got to keep going, you've got to pick yourself up, you've got to carry on. You know that mindset how do you help mentor the coaches that you have, like, how do you help them to, from a psychological point of view, really kind of get into their mindset?

Kathleen McCartney:

Yeah, I mean, I love coaching. This has just been such a wonderful opportunity for me to be working at Tridot, which is absolutely the best training platform in the world, and I feel so grateful that I have this and I was able to like find it late in my life. It was because of Tridot and its platform that I'm able to do this, because the training it's world class. It's something I couldn't create as a human. So I love the connections that I can make with my athletes athletes of all walks of life, and I just love that, with different goals, different walks of life, having the opportunity to connect with them and listen to them and find out what their goals are, and so with every athlete that I've had, I'm just like, I love them and I love my job because we have a connection.

Kathleen McCartney:

And then because I have so much experience in so many different parts of my life you know, from being a college student to being, you know, to working and being a mother and being a single mom and being a senior and being a grandma and having kids and, grant, it's just, I have a rich experience of life and then a long, a long period of time you know, 45 years that I've been racing and so I think there's it's been really fun because I can connect across so many different levels and find out what do people need.

Kathleen McCartney:

You know what. What kind of inspiration do they want? What kind of positivity can I feed them and connect to them in addition to you know just the miles and minutes and the and some and the racing. So that's my favorite part of my job is finding the connection where someone's like, wow, like they, they feel like I've made a difference in their life and I've made a difference in their training. I've made a difference in their race and that's made a difference in their training. I've made a difference in their race and that's my whole intent and that's my whole purpose. I wouldn't do it for any other reason.

Claire Fudge:

And I guess with I know you mentioned TriDot there. I guess with you know you're able to be that human being and be human with you know every athlete you know telling that story. Then what do you still see, though, as the biggest mistakes that athletes like continue to make? You must see a pattern. Tell us what that might be a pattern.

Kathleen McCartney:

Tell us what that might be. I'd say one thing that comes to mind is that the training that we're doing at Tridot is different than people, than traditional training. I mean we are doing just perfectly optimized sessions are prescribed for the athletes and I think it's been hard for some athletes to trust that they're doing enough. They think that they still have that mindset like more is better. And I and I try to tell my athletes like if you do what is specifically prescribed especially for you and you do it in the way it's prescribed and you're consistent, do all the training you're prescribed exactly as it's prescribed. I mean, we may tweak things here and there.

Kathleen McCartney:

Obviously, you know people are going to have injuries, they're going to have sickness, they're going to have family life come up, but but this is the best training in the world, this is it right here.

Kathleen McCartney:

And you know, I think, that most, you know most of my athletes do. But it's like I've seen some struggle with like oh, I don't feel like that's a long enough run or a long enough bike where I need to do more. And I find that you know, just as Toridot suggests, if you do the right training right, you will have the most success and that is and that is what I find. And then beyond that, I would say that sometimes athletes will think about getting a coach, but then not get a coach until like the last minute and you really need to have like go through the development phase for your athletes and then the race prep phase, and it's better than nothing. But I'd say, if you're thinking about getting a coach, you know, do it earlier in your training than just kind of like waiting, because there's so much we can do in the development phase to to get them really ready.

Charlie Reading:

So you know, getting coached near the last minute is okay but not ideal and I going back to what you were saying about tridor, funnily enough I was chatting with the guys I swim with in, you know, in having a coffee afterwards this morning saying exactly the same thing, saying you know, one of the things that I've taken from TriDot is I'm training less hours, I'm getting injured less and yet my performance is getting better. So I absolutely agree. I think it's brilliant. For that I wanted to sort of transition, because you helped Mike Levine, a stage four cancer warrior, get back into triathlon and inspire others. What did that journey with Mike teach you about the power of endurance, sport beyond competition?

Kathleen McCartney:

Oh, you know, that whole journey is probably one of the most rewarding things that I've ever done. You know, outside of my family, obviously. But the power of sport is real, it's tangible, it literally extended Mike Levine's life, inspired thousands of other people, allowed us to mentor people. It was the most powerful thing that I've ever done and it all unfolded right before my eyes. I was started out just as an opportunity to meet Mike, who was dying. He had stage four pancreatic cancer, been on a couch waiting to die. He was 69 years old and he had done the. He had done the October 82 Ironman, after having been inspired by my race and Julie's race and went on to be a phenomenal athlete. And but then in his later years he got pancreatic cancer.

Kathleen McCartney:

Well, bob Babbitt was putting together a little party, kind of like a going away party, goodbye party because he was getting ready to die and he really wanted to meet some triathletes and have some support. So I was supposed to go to this party at his house and meet him, because he really wanted to meet some triathletes and have some support. So I was supposed to go to this party at his house and meet him because he really wanted to meet me and I got really sick and so I couldn't go to the party. But I called him up and said I'm sorry, I'm so sick, but let me meet you and your wife for coffee. And you know what, why don't you get off that couch and like, let's go for a little bike ride? No, and so he was so excited that he actually got off his couch. He went and bought a new bike and he and his wife show up at coffee at Panikin in Lucadia, and I was just so delighted to meet him and we went out on a bike ride and he hadn't done anything. We went on a bike ride. He rode for almost an hour and we had to stop every five minutes or so and it was the most amazing thing I'd ever seen.

Kathleen McCartney:

Now, this guy had been a, you know, had been a good athlete, but it had been years. But the power of sport gives you that purpose, that hope and that community, and that's ultimately what I was able to provide for Mike Levine. And after that bike ride we had our coffee and I said, hey, mike, you know, would you like to do that again? And he's like, absolutely. And I said, well, I'm doing my annual like I'm training for Ironman this year 2017. I start off my training every year by I'm training for Ironman this year 2017. I start off my training every year by doing something I call Ironman in minutes, where I swim 2.4 minutes, I ride 112 minutes and I walk 26 minutes. So I think you could do that. How would you like to do that? And he's like that sounds great.

Kathleen McCartney:

So we had my little event. We used to be about me kicking off training. Julie and I would do that, you know, every year together. It was just something fun I created. But this year it became about others. It became about Mike and I ended up making a little plaque ahead of time with my finisher medal from 1982.

Kathleen McCartney:

And I made a plaque and I'm like this is I'm going to give him an anything is possible award for his inspiration.

Kathleen McCartney:

So we do the little event.

Kathleen McCartney:

We have like six people, we go out to lunch afterwards and I present him with this award anything is possible award which was my finisher medal.

Kathleen McCartney:

And from that day on I got him to start training with me and just little baby steps and after four months we were swimming, biking, running, he was getting off the couch, he was coming back to life through sport and he said, kath, I think I'd like to do Ironman again.

Kathleen McCartney:

He goes and you breathed the life back into me. And so when someone tells like, how could you hear those words and not feel like that's the most incredible gift that anyone could ever give you to know that you've made a difference in someone's life. So we were on this journey. Suddenly he was not sleeping all day and staying in bed and waiting to die. He was living and he actually earned a Ironman, gave him an ambassador spot for Ironman that year and it was the most exciting thing that I've ever done in my life, like surprising him with his entry, going through this beautiful journey with him. And, yeah, so it gave him hope, it gave him purpose, it gave him a reason to get off his bed and it gave him a community that cared and supported him. So that's the real power.

Charlie Reading:

It is incredible, isn't it? We had one of the Ironman announcers, paul Kay, on the podcast recently, and those stories are just incredible, aren't they? It is a sport that brings those stories out in a way that most sports can't, because it is about doing tough things, isn't it? And I remember Bob Babbitt just saying, when he crossed that finish line, he was never, ever going to be the same person again. What is it you think that Ironman really captures? Because it's not quite like. Ultra running is really tough, but I'm not quite sure it has that same thing. There's lots of things that are really tough, but I'm not sure that they quite do it in the way that Iron man seems to, somehow. What is it about it that you think brings in these incredible stories?

Kathleen McCartney:

I'd say, going back to my decision to be sitting on a seawall, and it was just audacious for me to think I could even do an Iron man, but I think that decision was as transformative as me, like crossing the finish line, just deciding that that's who you're going to be now. You're going to be a person that goes out to do amazing things and possible things with this other community that you're getting energy and inspiration from. And I think, also because it involves the three disciplines, and they're disciplines that are familiar to us swimming, bicycling, running, walking. These are things that most of us worldwide are exposed to, so I think it gives us that feeling like wow, these are things that I'm kind of familiar with and comfortable with, and maybe I can put them all together because it's something that's we grew up riding bikes. We grew up many of us you know swimming or playing in the pool or going in the ocean, and you know running walking, so I think that's that's part of it.

Charlie Reading:

I think. I think you're right and, and also as as listening to myself ask the question and listening to you talk about it, there is also the, the, the, the name iron man, the term iron man is actually really powerful, isn't it? It's like you are an ultra runner. Well, am I? You know? Like it's not. It's never going to work, is it? It's not, it's not. It's like a yeah, you become a different person once you're an iron man. I think it's. It's absolutely fascinating and, from a business point of view, I mean, it's marketing genius, isn't it? It's this absolutely incredible. So, kathy, we always ask every guest on the podcast for books that have helped them on their journey, or books they find themselves recommending to the people they coach or their friends. So what books really stand out for you on on your journey?

Kathleen McCartney:

well, I'm going to go way back into the pioneering because I think it's such an important part of our sport history and I don't want that to be lost, like for all the new people that are coming into the sport or people that just took it up, people that you know, weren't, you know, racing when I was in my 20s as a college student? You know, you know, 45 years ago. So I just, I think you know Iron War by Matt Fitzgerald, 100%, like you've just got to read that book, you will learn so much about the, the endurance, motivation, inspiration, getting in the heads of two of the greatest competitors in our sport, to the greatest rivals, and there's so much to be learned from from reading that book. And it's, I think, if you're truly going to be, you know, an Iron man and a Traglet, you have to really know that story and feel that story.

Kathleen McCartney:

And then, secondly, I would say another book from back in the day, from back in 1987, written by Mike Plant, my dear, dear, dear friend, iron Will. Mike Plant is one of the most incredible journalists, photographers. Well, he, he has passed away and and I just want to honor him by sharing, you know, this book that he wrote which talks about, you know, the early day of triathlon and gets into the heads and minds of the early competitors and describes, describes the Ironman World Championship in such a beautiful way. And, yeah, we lost a great person in losing Mike Plant, but he does have some other books out there and that's another great one to just really get a feeling for pioneering in our sport, which basically laid the foundation for everything that has come, the gloriousness that's come, and who knew back in the day that it was going to be a multi-billion dollar industry I like we could not have, and an Olympic sport we could never have fathomed that that's brilliant.

Charlie Reading:

No, I agree, and I love Iron War just like an incredible book. And I'm really pleased you said it actually because I know you're really good friends with Mark Allen and Mark when we had him on the podcast. He doesn't actually like the book Iron War because it doesn't quite tell the story as he remembers it or as Dave remembers it. And yet I still think it's such an important book because it tells us and like I get that for them. Some of the details aren't quite right, but the overriding story is so powerful and Matt Fitzgerald, who we've always had on the podcast, just does a wonderful job of telling that story. So I'm really pleased that you said that book Iron Will.

Charlie Reading:

I've never read that, so that's immediately going straight onto my brilliant. Yeah, I don't know, I and Will, I've never read that, so that's immediately going straight onto my brilliant. Yeah, I don't know, I don't know how I've missed that, but I have. I do remember seeing it, but I've never read it, so that's going straight onto the reading list. I am very grateful for that recommendation. Then the last thing that we do is we get the previous guest to ask the next guest a question without knowing who that question is going to be, and the last guest was Simon Dent, who is an ultra runner and highly successful entrepreneur. And I think, claire, you've got Simon's question, haven't you?

Claire Fudge:

Yes. So what's the one fitness or lifestyle habit you wish you'd started earlier in life, and why?

Kathleen McCartney:

Oh, that's kind of an easy question. When I was in the, I was never. I didn't grow up doing organized sports. I grew up in a time where I watched my brothers, you know, play baseball and football and then I would make them cakes after they won right. But I was very athletic, you know, climbing trees, playing, going to the beach, but never did organized sports. But I did have a competitive nature always and didn't realize how strong it was till many years later.

Kathleen McCartney:

But when I was in the third grade I just decided that I wanted to try out for the swim team with my best friend and she was a year older than me and I was so excited I just thought, oh my gosh, I could be like playing sports, it's amazing. So I go to the tryouts and I didn so excited I just thought, oh my gosh, I could be like playing a sport, it's amazing. So I go to the tryouts and I didn't really. I knew how to play in a pool, but I didn't know how to do lap swimming and so I didn't know that you're supposed to exhale when your face is in the water. So I'm like holding my breath and struggling.

Kathleen McCartney:

But I was so excited and it was just like oh no, mccartney, like you're out, you know. So I was like, oh my God, it's like how did I not make a swim team? Like I didn't even get a chance. I think it was like 25 yards and you know that I stunk. But wow, like my, I'm a, I still. You know, I'm all constantly working on my swim and I always had to play catch up because I didn't have a swimming background. No-transcript.

Charlie Reading:

I think that's brilliant because the number of times that we have had you know, people on this podcast we've had done over 150 episodes and the physical point of view building the engine, but the discipline of following a training plan, getting up early, I think there's just, it's just such a brilliant thing. So I also wish I had done that at an earlier age, for sure. I think I think it's fantastic. Um, kathleen, it has been absolutely brilliant.

Charlie Reading:

Chas, and I loved hearing the stories. I love hearing about what it was like and what that iconic moment was like for you and that kind of build up to it and everything else and what you've done for the sport since. I think you know it was absolutely amazing to chat to you and some of the other TriDot legends in Kona and I think it's fantastic that you're still embracing the sport and giving back to the sport and and just loving it. So, um, and I couldn't agree with you more in in the, in the sense of that community is such a brilliant, amazing community. So, but, thank you, thank you for coming on the podcast. It's been an absolute privilege and a pleasure and, yeah, keep up the amazing work thank you, charlie, thank you very much, claire.

Charlie Reading:

And I'll see you again soon well, I'm sure you agree that was an amazing conversation with a true legend of the sport, kathleen mccartney. If you want to find out more, she's kath mccartney at instagram and in the show notes we'll also put her tridot coaching link so that you can track her down if you would like to be coached by Kathleen, or just follow her on her socials. But, claire, what did you make of that interview with the legend that is Kathleen McCartney?

Claire Fudge:

Well, I was just about to say legend before you said it. Yeah, like amazing. I think the video of Julie and Kathleen was actually one of the first things that I watched before I did my first Ironman, and so for me, to you know, us to have this conversation today was just amazing. And she is so inspiring and I think the thing that really sort of came across to me is this you know, in the 1980s, as she was saying, there were like not very many females in ironman sport, in that kind of sport, and she, her mindset just from the outset was, you know, just get on and do it. You know, um, and that's what really came across for me is, just expect the unexpected, just pick yourself up, figure it out, get on with it. Um, and even to this day now, when she's talking to you know, her, her athletes, that it's. You know. She's talking about empowerment, having purpose.

Charlie Reading:

So for me, it was, it was really inspirational to hear her story, but also how that has, how Ironman has provided her with different things at different times but coming back to it has continued to offer very different things and really powerful sort of pivots and moments in her life. I think, yeah, I thought she was absolutely brilliant. I think I completely agree with the mindset piece and you know that whole. I mean she obviously went into that first Ironman thinking she had food poisoning, even though later on she knew it wasn't food poisoning, but having that, I say essentially the same symptoms of that by going well, all I can do is control the controllables and and focus on on just getting on and doing what I can do and not giving up.

Charlie Reading:

And I thought that was, I thought that was brilliant and I think the the purpose, hope and community piece that she talked about in terms of you know that really is. I don't think I've ever heard it verbalized quite that way purpose, hope and community. Like I love the hope bit. I like I kind of I would have guessed I would have probably said community and purpose, but hope was yeah, what, what do you make of that?

Claire Fudge:

yeah, I, I, um, I think community is really interesting, because I think there's several parts to an endurance community, isn't there? There's a community at races, which is very different but supported to a certain degree, um, in girls, sport, um, but either that community that you have with you know your training partners, the groups you go out with, I think that's there's a really strong part there. Um, hope is is really interesting because I picked up on that as well and I think it's for me. It's about people having something that's such an a huge challenge, a point in their life when maybe they don't think they can overcome anything. So that's kind of what I got from it is that literally, you know that if they could do that, yes, it's giving them purpose, but it's giving them hope that you know they can do whatever comes up against them.

Charlie Reading:

So, yeah, that's what I suppose I was just thinking about that and, yeah, I hadn't really thought about it. But if we think about it in business, you'd say it's like having a moonshot, isn't it? It's like a moonshot is a single point of focus. It's a bigger, it's a goal that's so big that you don't know how you're going to do it, but you know why you want to do it and and I think that hope is kind of like well, actually, I'm yeah, it's a look, it's a. It is something to make a beeline for the future, isn't it? And I think it makes it much more meaningful.

Charlie Reading:

So, but then, yeah, it's difficult to distinguish between what's hope and what's purpose, isn't it? Because that kind of yeah, it really got me thinking. Actually, I also loved that. When she said the Ironman helps you do hard things, I thought, yeah, that's definitely. You know you're practicing your resilience in one area. Even if you're creating the resilience, you know the need for resilience yourself, and then that helps provide you with resilience in other areas where you probably wouldn't choose to need it.

Claire Fudge:

I think actually that comes back to what she was talking about. You know, balancing family life and getting back into training. You know the resilience in so many different areas of your life. But again it comes back to routine and consistency you know she was talking about. Well, you get up earlier, you know, but you have all that routine and consistency that you've built the whole of your life without a family and then you just have to re. You know, recreate that, and I guess you know the same is true of of business as well. You know, I hear many business people say that they don't have time to do any exercise. But actually it's about how do you, how do you do something on a regular basis and create that routine around your working day.

Charlie Reading:

Do you see the same with nutrition? Do you see like is? Because I see it in business coaching. I don't have time for business coaching, I'm too busy. Well, you're not going to fix the time problem if you don't go for the coaching to work out how you improve the way that you work. Is that also a complaint with people in the nutrition world?

Claire Fudge:

Yeah, absolutely, I don't have time to think about it, and that's essentially why often I find people go for a quick fix, a golden bullet, because I don't have time. And actually that also comes back to consistency. It's the small things that you do consistently that actually have the biggest impact, you know.

Charlie Reading:

And that also comes back into routine, routine consistency, and actually essentially it saves you time once you've got it in, once you've got it in routine, but absolutely you're absolutely, you're absolutely right, it's the small things you do often that make the biggest difference, not the big things you do occasionally, and whether that's in your business, whether that's in your health and nutrition or whether that's in your training, it's that consistency and having the plan and and I also think that having that consistency I know for me and I and I think I might be saying that kathleen said this it's having that plan and that consistency and that structure just seems to put you in a better mindset as well, as, you know, going through the day knowing you've done the hard thing at the start of it by, you know, doing the exercise.

Charlie Reading:

So, yeah, really powerful. But I thought it was just wonderful to chat to her about that, about that probably like, if you think about it, iron war and that 1982 moment with julie I mean, and iron war wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been for the julie moss and kathleen mccartney moment. So, like it is, it was just brilliant to hear, hear that story and and to understand what it was, what it was like for her. So, yeah, really really amazing to chat to her and a lot, of, a lot of really interesting insights that she, you know that we, that she was able to provide. So, yeah, another amazing interview for everyone else at home. Keep on training, thank you.