Business of Endurance

What Happens when Purpose Meets Ambition: Lessons in Leadership with British Cycling CEO Jon Dutton

• Charlie Reading • Season 9 • Episode 8

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What does it take to lead one of Britain’s most iconic sports into a new era? 

In this episode, we sit down with Jon Dutton OBE, CEO of British Cycling, to unpack how purpose-driven leadership, bold decision-making, and emotional intelligence are shaping the future of sport. 

From orchestrating the ground-breaking Rugby League World Cup to overseeing the path to Paris 2024 and beyond, Jon shares the untold stories behind elite performance, everyday cycling, and the entrepreneurial mindset needed to drive systemic change. 

We talk values, resilience, media disruption, and why mindset - not just physiology - is becoming the biggest predictor of success in sport and business. 

Whether you're an athlete, a business owner, or simply looking for leadership inspiration, this conversation is a masterclass in navigating challenge with clarity, ambition, and integrity. If you’re ready to think bigger and lead better-this episode is for you.

Highlights:

  • Leading with Purpose: How purpose-driven leadership is reshaping British Cycling and driving systemic change.
  • Resilience Through Adversity: Navigating setbacks, including the postponement of the Rugby League World Cup, with determination and values.
  • The Role of Values in Decision-Making: How making difficult decisions in sport, such as postponing an event, is grounded in core values like authenticity and inclusivity.
  • Building a Positive Culture: How Jon is fostering a culture of trust, loyalty, and collective responsibility within British Cycling.
  • Social Impact Through Sport: Leveraging cycling as a tool for social mobility, community cohesion, and tackling inactivity.
  • Creating Opportunities for All: British Cycling’s commitment to engaging the entire population, from young children to seniors, in cycling.
  • The Growth Mindset: How a growth mindset is key to success in both sport and business, and how British Cycling encourages it within its athletes and team.
  • Entrepreneurial Leadership: How Jon’s entrepreneurial approach is helping British Cycling thrive in a constantly evolving environment.
  • The Power of the Grand Depart: The monumental impact of bringing the Tour de France to the UK in 2027 and its potential for inspiring the nation.
  • Navigating Change in Media: How the shift in TV coverage and media rights is influencing the future of cycling and British Cycling’s role in that transformation.


Links:

Connect with Jon through LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jon-dutton72/

Visit the British Cycling Website: https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/

Please Subscribe to Business of Endurance on Apple Podcasts, leave a comment, and give us a 5-Star review. 

This episode was sponsored by The Trusted Team and 4th Discipline

Jon Dutton:

have energy and determination, I think. Have a plan, but don't be afraid to change the plan as you navigate through. It's just like riding a bike, isn't it? Sometimes you want to go in a straight line and sometimes you have to navigate around. If you believe in something, then give it everything you've got. What does?

Charlie Reading:

it take to lead one, one of Britain's most iconic sports, into a new era. Well, in this episode, we sit down with John Dutton OBE. He's the CEO of British Cycling to unpack how purpose-driven leadership, bold decision-making and emotional intelligence are shaping the future of sport. From orchestrating the groundbreaking Rugby League World Cup to overseeing the path to Paris 2024 and beyond, john shares the untold stories behind elite performance, everyday cycling and the entrepreneurial mindset needed to drive systemic change. We talk values, resilience, media disruption and the entrepreneurial mindset needed to drive systemic change. We talk values, resilience, media disruption and why mindset, not just physiology, is becoming the biggest predictor of success in sport and business. So, whether you're an athlete, a business owner or simply looking for leadership inspiration, this conversation is a masterclass in navigating challenge with clarity, ambition and integrity. If you're ready to think bigger and lead better, this episode is for you. So let's dive into the interview with John Dutton OBE. John, when we look at the back end of this podcast, then we see something really interesting. We see that 57% of the people that regularly listen to it haven't hit the subscribe button. So could I ask you a quick favor before we dive into today's episode? If you're enjoying, claire and I bringing you amazing guests, not asking you for patronage fees and not jamming the podcast full of adverts, then the best way you can help us continue to do that and make it even better is to hit that subscribe button. And here's my promise to you when you subscribe we'll make it our mission, along with the team that supports us, to continue to improve this podcast every week. So thank you so much for your support and for being a part of the Business of Endurance community.

Charlie Reading:

Let's dive in. So, john, welcome to the Business of Endurance podcast. Really looking forward to chatting to you some more. I know we chatted briefly in the RAC club after a very lovely dinner. So looking forward to sort of diving in to your journey and what you're bringing to the world of cycling now. And I'd love to start sort of where you started. So you know you've held multiple roles across major sort of different sporting events, whether it's the PGA Tour's, uefa and, obviously, the, the rugby league world cup, which we'll definitely want to talk to you about. But what first drew you to the business of sport, what brought you into being in the business of sport and what have you learned from that journey that you're now wanting to bring to british cycling well.

Jon Dutton:

First of all, charlie, thank you for the opportunity, really looking forward to the conversation. I'm 30 years now in my career, exclusively in the sports industry. So first of all, I would always regard myself as having a privileged experience. I worked across many different sports. I always wanted to be a professional rugby player and that's where I started off.

Jon Dutton:

I am from a town called Lee, 45,000 population. Lee was a big part of the Industrial Revolution, then a mining town, and rugby rugby league in particular has always been woven into the fabric of the town. So I had aspirations to play sports realised, probably after a trial and played one professional game. I was neither good enough nor brave enough, pursued a career in sports administration, did a degree in sport management at the University of Northumbria and I've managed to carry on that passion for all my love of sport, throughout my career. So, reflecting back on 30 years of amazing experiences working with amazing people, you know just been involved in some fantastic things, but that was my motivation. I always wanted to play and didn't quite make it but have navigated a different direction.

Charlie Reading:

You mentioned that you were brave enough to play. By the way, I was definitely not brave enough to play rugby either. I was far too soft. It was like hiding on the wing. But I've heard you talk, use the words quite often when, when you've been interviewed elsewhere about being bold and brave in business. Do you think that that was crafted as a result of your early days in sport, or what brought out bold and brave this term that I hear you?

Jon Dutton:

use. I've always been, I guess, ambitious, determined is probably the the key word, and it was probably that determination in the early days of appreciating I couldn't follow through and be that professional athlete that I wanted to be to then use my degree. My first job was on the European golf tour, as was, and I just saw opportunity from there. So I think determination is manifesting to bold, brave, almost seeking forgiveness approach, but also, you know, I appreciate the accountable officer for millions of pounds worth of public funding. So there is a balance between really pushing on and being ambitious but also never stepping over the line of being funding. So there is a balance between really pushing on and being ambitious but also never stepping over the line of being reckless. But I think the key word, probably Charlie, is determination.

Charlie Reading:

I think that's a great word in business and in anything, isn't it? Because I think I mean, we've talked a lot on the podcast about you know, is it more important to be born with, you know, the right sort of talents or the right determination? And I think, every time we've ever asked anyone dear, determination trumps talent.

Jon Dutton:

Every, every time, I think so and I think we can learn so much in business from sports if you think about how we prepare or train, how we get ourselves into the right position, how we go into that match play environment and how we reflect afterwards, so that there are so many things, I think, to learn from the world of sport. And I don't think I'm naturally gifted or naturally talented in any particular area, but I have a real determination to work hard, a big high work ethic. Got that from my parents. I would say some stoicism in there as well. I think it's probably a bit about being a northerner, but I just think the fabric of who I am I've appreciated I'm not the most gifted or talented person in the world, but make up for that with determination, desire and hard work.

Charlie Reading:

And one of those phenomenal things that you've done. I mean it's an amazing CV when you look at all of the different sporting, I mean the number of events that you must have seen over the years must be absolutely phenomenal. But, um, but one of the one of the key ones I would assume maybe the top of the CV, I don't know it was bringing the rugby league world cup together and putting three events into one. So for those people that don't know really what happened there, describe what you had to do, why you felt that you needed to change it and what was the result of that change.

Jon Dutton:

First of all, it's my sport and so what a privilege to be able to do something really special. I worked on the Rival League World Cup in 2013. I was the operations director and that was an amazing tournament. I worked with Sally Bolton, who was the CEO Sally is currently chief exec of the All England club, wimbledon and we just had a really small budget, a really small team, and we over achieved we, we outperformed every single target and that was great. And we reflected and said, well, if we had the opportunity to do it again, we wanted to do it in a bigger, bolder, more ambitious way, and the opportunity arose not not too far from that, in 2015, where we had a conversation with the UK government about delivering assortment that had equality at its heart and also delivered a significant social impact programme, a transformative social impact programme. But that was a long way away from the tournament, so the tournament was due to be held in 2021. So, six years out, the conversation with government and it was largely about a political agenda as well, about the Northern Powerhouse as was David Cameron was the Prime Minister, george Osborne the Chancellor, and we had this slightly weird conversation about Rugby League being born in the North, a sport of the North and an opportunity to stage a global tournament that celebrated that but also delivered more than the sum of the parts. So forward through. Obviously, the spoiler alert is it didn't get delivered in 2021, it got delivered in 2022, which is a completely different story in itself, but it was just what. What a privilege, what an opportunity to be really proud of my sport, standing tall men, women and wheelchair athletes on the same platform, treated with equality, and to deliver a social impact program that really did make a difference to the lives of people in really challenged communities. And, yeah, so much to be proud of.

Jon Dutton:

And to this day, I reflect back in 2015 of some of the bumps in the road. We thought that the EU referendum we submitted our bid the day before the EU referendum, david Cameron and George Osborne as our bid sponsors. We thought that that would be the the most difficult thing we had to contend with. Um, needless to say, the next day after the bid was submitted, neither David Cameron or George Osborne were no longer in power. They they resigned when the EU referendum didn't go the way it went, and Brexit was the sort of thing that we thought, gosh, that's going to be the biggest challenge, but little did we know, charlie, what was ahead in terms of having to postpone the tournament.

Charlie Reading:

Amazing, amazing and yes, so we could describe what that was like, what was ahead in terms of having to postpone the tournament, amazing, amazing and yes, so describe what that was like. What was it like negotiating all of those different things for the tournament and what did you? You know, reflecting back, what was the greatest achievement?

Jon Dutton:

I think the greatest achievement was the commitment to social impact, it being deeply embedded within the DNA of the event. It had a purpose. We always talked about it being a tournament with a purpose. I think the achievement of just getting the thing delivered after postponement was yeah, it certainly took a lot of emotion, a lot of energy and a lot of back to the word of determination to go again after we had to postpone it.

Jon Dutton:

But in 2015, we were full of ideas and we hadn't probably quite figured out once we convinced UK government to give us quite a big sum of money how we'd actually do it. So we went in very, very brave and said we would deliver 32 teams, 21 venues, every game live on the BBC all the things that we wanted to achieve, but we hadn't quite worked out how we were going to do that. But we had a purpose, we had a vision, we had a brilliant board. The values were embedded within the decision-making. I learnt a lot about myself over that period and, of course, having to postpone the tournament, having worked for almost six years to get the tournament into the position of less than 100 days away from the start, having to let it all crumble around around us and reset and go again I think it's amazing to hear as well that you're bringing this, this, the social impact program, together, but also the men, women, powers all together in in one place is just amazing.

Claire Fudge:

Moving on to british, how did that experience impact what you brought to British Cycling?

Jon Dutton:

I learned a lot about myself. I mean the opportunity at British Cycling. It was just, it was so special. It's a sport I love, I've always loved. I regard myself as a Tour de France super fan.

Jon Dutton:

It was also a role that had an enormous amount of challenge. I think I'm at my best and thrive where there is challenge. I've not been disappointed with the lack of challenge, it's fair to say. But yeah, I guess the difference was I was delivering an event that had a start, a middle and an end, whereas British Cycling hopefully, things will be here in perpetuity, so it's a slightly different rhythm, although we now have our own commercial subsidiary that also delivers events and a social impact program. So there are some similarities, but I think for me, I joined an organization two years ago that has had some challenges, well-documented in the public domain, whether it's a brand and reputation or financial.

Jon Dutton:

I joined an organization, I would say, that lost its confidence and it's been amazing to be on a journey for two years that I've led, but with just a brilliant team and we've really approached some of the challenges head on. I do say there will be more, but having a sport where 27 million people have got on a bike in the last 12 months in the UK, which is an astonishing figure a third of the UK population and for us to be able to try and reach those 27 million people more, give people great experiences, get people moving and healthy. Do that whilst also performing at the elite level and winning medals in Olympic and Paralympic Games and everything in between is again what an absolute privilege. It's a tough role, but it's a very fulfilling role to be able to make a difference.

Claire Fudge:

I mean just listening again, doing the research for it to speak to you today. It sounds like like you've made so much impact. You mentioned the, the challenges. What do you think has been the biggest challenge? Like when you first joined British Cycling, you were faced with lots of different challenges and made lots of changes. What, what do you think has been the biggest I guess perceived challenge when you went in, but what was the actual biggest challenge do you think has been the biggest? I guess perceived challenge when you went in, but what was the actual biggest challenge do you think?

Jon Dutton:

I think I remember sitting down as part of the recruitment process, which was quite extensive, and meeting with the chairman, and the chairman was brilliant and just said look, I'm going to tell you how it is. And I guess that was the bit of maybe even trying to scare me off. And when he told me how it was and there was no surprise when I walked into the organisation and what I encountered and you know, thank you for your praise, but I'm just a bus driver and it's the team that I've got around me that have made the difference and we were in a position, two years on, probably only halfway of where I would like the organisation to be, but we're in an improved financial position. I would like to say our brand and reputation has improved. Our culture certainly has improved and we measure that on a regular basis. We've got new commercial partners, but I think also the organization's got its confidence Back. A few weeks ago, we published a new strategy that's really different.

Jon Dutton:

I am really proud of all of those things and despite that, we live in a really challenging environment. I talk a lot about VUCA, volatility, uncertainty, complexity and ambiguity, and I think we can tick every one of those boxes, but that's what we're all living, isn't it? We live in an environment where every day, when we wake up and consume the news, something new is coming at us, and that's just we've got to accept that. You can either feel sorry for yourselves or you can get on and do something about it, and I'd like to say we fall in the in the latter, where we've had our own share of adversity, but we've navigated it as best we can so far you talk there about culture.

Claire Fudge:

We've we talked to lots of different athletes and business professionals about about culture. How. How do you measure that? Because you said you're you know made changes and you're measuring. How would you measure that in in the world of british cycling?

Jon Dutton:

yeah, we, we use one of the many tools that are available. We use the happiness index. It was important for me that we set a benchmark when I came into the organization and we measured that again at points, and I'm pleased to say that the indicators are positive. What it's given us also, then, is feedback of the areas that we still need to work on. So a big conversation at the moment about mental wellbeing, about leadership development, and I'm pleased with that because they are things I think we can do better on and they're really proactive areas rather than maybe some of the hygiene factors that I encountered when I came into being.

Jon Dutton:

But, yeah, I think culture leadership to me is how you make people feel, and I think then, if you can deeply embed a sense of collective responsibility, I would say my soft contract with people is based on TLC not tender, loving, care, but trust, loyalty, and then that C you can have collectivity, curiosity or challenge, and I think if you can get the blend of that high level of trust, loyalty, not just the organization but to each other, and then we can cheat a little bit with the Cs. But I love people that are curious, I love people that challenge me and I love the sense of collective responsibility. I think it's super, super powerful. I'm a big fan of Jim Collins from Good to Great and I use the analogy of the flywheel a lot, and I think when I joined the organisation organisation the flywheel had definitely got stuck and we've just gradually kept going and it's now getting its own momentum and that feels it feels good.

Jon Dutton:

You know, you can measure it using whatever tool, but also, if it feels good, that's, it's uplifting, and if people have a smile on their face, feel happy, healthy and supported. And it's the same for our GB cycling team. We've've got 140 riders on programme, we've got an amazing performance director, we've got an amazing team, and I remember talking about Paris and creating the perfect environment. The perfect environment is based on culture, and if then, the athletes are happy and healthy and they feel supported, guess what? They go out and they perform at the best. And that's exactly what happened in the Olympic and Paralympic Games in Paris.

Claire Fudge:

I love your idea of this soft tlc but also swapping out the sea for whatever you want, I think, in the end was making my mind question a little bit. Yeah, and I think you know having it, having a measure, that you have got this benchmark in terms of culture and happiness, but I think you're absolutely right in terms of it's something that you feel people are breathing it, people are living it. Um, you know to feel that across all your athletes and and members of the team as well. You've spoken a number of times actually, when just at the beginning you were, when you were talking at the start, about the social impact program you mentioned actually in rugby, but you also mentioned it briefly in terms of cycling. Tell us a little bit about what number one, I guess, what social impact means in sport and in cycling and what you're, what you're trying to to achieve through that yeah, I mean social impact.

Jon Dutton:

To me, some people get confused with participation. So in whatever sport, just getting more people playing the game, getting more members, etc. And that's a great. I think that's a great output of the social impact program. But social impact to me it is a permanent positive change to someone's life and I guess the hard thing.

Jon Dutton:

Going back to the rugby league world cup, we had a really clear vision of what we wanted to achieve and it's about experiences. And when we sat down with lots of very smart people, we asked the question about how we would measure that and I've always wanted to measure in a qualitative way and we had lots of very smart people scratching their heads to say, well, we're not sure you can do that. You need to get like quantitative numbers. And we found a way through a theory of change model and we carried that forward into British Cycling. But it's more outcome driven rather than the numbers. So 27 million people have ridden a bike. I'd like to think if we can convince those to be regular riders, people will be healthier, make a contribution to the national health service. We'd maybe make the nation a bit more productive and contribute to a growth agenda. That that's a very lofty ambition, but we might just change one person's life and and that, for me, is more than good enough and I have a particular personal passion around social mobility I think the fact of where you are born has such a defining outcome on your life. So, whether it's education, employment, health, opportunity and I just think that sport has a such a massive part that plays in people's lives that can make a difference. So we we're doing a number of different things at British Cycling, but one is working with people in social care, and if you think about people in social care who just don't have the same level of opportunities as many other people in society and this is 2025 in a developed nation and many people in social care have a carer who are their only friend. The carer is being paid to be someone's friend and I just find that quite astonishing. So I think, whether it's cycling, rub league, but sport in general, I think we can use that as a force for the good. I think sport is a great way of bringing people together, having great experiences, sharing memories, also getting people moving.

Jon Dutton:

I know social impact program at british cycling. We have four outcomes social justice is the first one. Social mobility, the second one, social cohesion, the third one, in tackling inactivity, the fourth, and we've gone through a theory of change and say, well they're the outcomes, great, what might? We put together a program to look at that and using things like our tours of britain, where on the road we reach hundreds of thousands of people and create visibility. The Tour de France coming back to the UK, which is amazing news, the riders that we have in the programme are simply just those people that want to get out for positive mental wellbeing and get some exercise in the fresh air. So yeah, hugely excited, really passionate about our social impact programme and if you can start to see it change people's lives for the positive, then yeah, we're all in.

Charlie Reading:

I think this is absolutely brilliant. Firstly, I heard you say that 20 million figure in one of the interviews I was listening to you on. It's an astonishing figure, isn't it? I mean it's incredible to think that that many people a third of the people in the UK got on a bike in the last year. That is phenomenal and it does mean that there is this huge opportunity. I know cycling has made my life immeasurably better because, whether it's a social thing, whether it's getting outside, whether it's the fitness, whether it's the goals, all of this stuff is so brilliant and I suppose there's so much scope for uplifting the people that do it. A lot within that 27 million isn't there. What are your thoughts on how you do that and where do you do that? I think people understand what British Cycling's role is for those people that are racing in Paris, but does British Cycling kind of? What's its scope for the whole of the community?

Jon Dutton:

Yeah, it's a really good question, charlie, and I think and I'm sure my board directors and my team wouldn't mind me saying I think probably we'd lost our way in that definition of what exactly we stood for. So we've always been incredibly strong. From a performance team, I mean, our medal tally at both Olympics and Paralympics is astonishing and that's to be celebrated, and we have the competition pathway that feeds through into that. But I think we had lost our way. And my definition now in our new strategy definition just get more people on a bike and give them great experiences.

Jon Dutton:

And if you work through the multiple ways of which you can ride a bike, first of all, it's a life skill Many of. And if you work through the multiple ways of which you can ride a bike, first of all, it's a life skill. You know many of us are taught at school used to be cycling proficiency when I was at school. It's no bike ability, but you have that very first step. Or you might be with the stabilizers, with your mum and dad, with your family. You know all of that. Then it's about freedom and it's about adventure and it's about liberation. It's also a form of travel and we see more people now cycling to work, and I think I'm right in saying that the cycle to work scheme is the biggest way that anyone now buys a bike. It's overtaken people just going to the shop and purchasing a bike. So it shows that there has been a societal change. We see no more dedicated cycle routes being developed. You know, you look at London now. Comparedondon five or ten years ago, it's radically different and lots of towns and cities are going through that.

Jon Dutton:

So the reality for british cycling is that we we reach about a million of the 27 million.

Jon Dutton:

So whether it's our members, people have come to our events, had experiences, so we have data of about a million. We'd love to have more data, we'd love to understand people's motivation and we'd love to serve them better offers, but for us it's just throwing our arms wide open. And if you ride an e-bike, if you ride at home on your Strava or whatever you choose, if you are out with your family the weekend or you are riding competitively, we just want to warmly embrace all of that. And there is a big conversation about safety. We've seen an exponential growth of people riding off-road. I think some of that more is a lifestyle offer the types of bikes you can buy now gravel is is enormous, but for us, more people on a bike, great experiences and hopefully we can start to engage a bit more and have better conversations you touch on safety there, which is obviously, you know, a key factor and probably the single thing that puts more people off cycling more than than anything else.

Charlie Reading:

Does british cycling have scope to influence the government on? You know, because I would agree, 25 years ago, when I lived in london, there's no way I would have cycled to work. Now it's. It's significantly, you know, significantly better. Having been cycling in cornwall last week, it's significantly better. Having been cycling in Cornwall last week, it's probably a slightly different conversation, but equally, the cycling is amazing, coy. It's an amazing part of the world to be cycling. What can British cycling do to make it?

Jon Dutton:

safer. What's its role? To be part of the conversation, charlie. So I don't think singularly we are able to influence on our own, I think, as a group. So we are part of a sort of active groups called the walking and cycling alliance with many other people who work mainly a charitable space, um, and and we're part of that conversation. So making experiences safer, developing more infrastructure and reacting. We talked a bit early, didn't we? About the environment in which we live in is constantly changing and becoming challenging. I think that's the same from from a societal perspective. But yeah, going to cycle in Cornwall, getting some fresh air, feeling good, positive mental wellbeing, I mean, there are reasons enough to get on your bike.

Claire Fudge:

I think we've definitely seen, I think, sort of post-COVID. There's been an explosion, hasn't there, of both running actually, so the ultramarathon scene has sort of taken off and certainly cycling. I don't know if there's any, if you've got any stats on how many people took up cycling and continued. I don't know, do you have those kinds of stats?

Jon Dutton:

Yeah, I mean certainly there was the explosion in participation during the pandemic. The curve then went down slightly and we do a quarterly market tracker. We've seen the 26, 27 million number be pretty stable and clearly there are challenges for the industry. The industry is probably worth a little less overall. It was a £2 billion industry in the UK. It's probably somewhere like £1.2, £1.5 billion industry and that's slowed down since the pandemic. But we just want to be here as positive advocates of better mental wellbeing, better physical wellbeing and if we can do that scale, genuinely at scale, I think we are contributing to the nation. You know that's not British Cycling, that's just everyone that gets on a bike and is a bit healthier, a bit more productive and hopefully contributes to growth of the nation.

Claire Fudge:

Absolutely, and actually with a clinical background, so as a dietician, like seeing that impact from a medical perspective as well, you know the rates of sort of health obesity. Heard you speak quite a bit in a few other podcasts. You've been on about values and you've mentioned it today, both about you know sort of the values that you have in British cycling, but also the purpose in sport. Is there a time that you can think of where, as a leader, you've had to make like a really big decision, a really tough decision, and you've had to be really sort of guided by the values that you have?

Jon Dutton:

Yeah, I would give you the example of the Rugby League World Cup, the probably toughest professional decision in my career, when we were faced with three options. One was to postpone our tournament for 12 months. One was to cancel our tournament and walk away, and this is, after six years worth of hard work, a slug of public investment. Or the third option was to carry on, and I remember vividly what led to that and that was the withdrawal of a couple of the nations that had players across most of the 21 competing nations, and I remember we had a straw poll in the morning of our board. So we had nine directors and there were three options and we went round myself in the chair, and we had four directors who wanted to cancel and walk away.

Jon Dutton:

We had four directors who wanted to postpone for 12 months and and carry on, and it quickly dawned on my chair that he had the casting vote, which wasn't the best position to be in, but we worked throughout the day and my show chris brinley, who's a wonderful human being, and at the start of the board meeting he reminded all of our directors we were going to make a decision based on our values and it was just astonishing.

Jon Dutton:

That was a manifestation of living and breathing your values and people. People were tired, emotional, really angry about the situation and what had happened. And yet Chris very calmly reminded the board and we went round and guess what? It was 9-0 that we postponed and carried on for another 12 months, and that, for me, was values in action. We were making decisions, or we could have made decisions, as executives sat 12 000 miles away from the athletes that were affected. Many of them afterwards, some of the women from a couple of the nations, talked about family planning and how their whole life centered on going to the tournament. I mean, it was just incredible, but it was the values that got us through, the sense of purpose, sense of collectivity, but the values and that was superb chairship from chris, but also, at the time, people were.

Claire Fudge:

People were pretty battered and bruised by what happened in the preceding weeks if you can tell us I what you know, what were those kind of, I guess, key values that that decision was then made on?

Jon Dutton:

the first one was authenticity, and what ch Chris was advocating is that. You know we've been on a journey so far. We've been six years together as a board. He wanted us to be authentic. The second value was inclusivity. You know we were standing for athletes' hope and dreams across three different competitions and certainly in the wheelchair tournament, the first time ever it had been part of this whole festival. Some people hadn't travelled away from home before. I mean, it was quite astonishing the circumstances that people were facing. And the third value was about being world-class. You know behaving in a world-class way. So you know, drawing the values out on the board, reminding ourselves of our purpose and then having the conversation and then coming back to we need to make a decision and we're going to make it based on our values I think that's great to be able to like bring that back to those true values and be able to make a huge decision on that.

Claire Fudge:

How do you in british cycling make sure that the values that you have, kind of you know, living, breathing people, are being authentic to it and true to it, rather than it just just be, you know, a written document or somewhere?

Jon Dutton:

No, and it's a great question. We've actually done a lot physically recently. So we've had our office I wouldn't say redecorated, but we've got big pillars in the office and on each of the pillars it has one of our values. So it is a constant reminder, but the values had already been. We'd gone through a big consultation exercise internally before I joined the organization. The bit for me that was missing was a behavior framework, and we have put that into being in the behavior framework. It's been really helpful in terms of helping people understand what each of the values means, but it also allows people to challenge poor behavior and they've got something then to some direction to go in.

Jon Dutton:

The big bit for us is our purpose. So we have a purpose which is to bring the drive cycling to everyone. Probably goes back to some of yours and charlie's previous questions and and that's the reason we get out of bed in the morning and like that constant reminder and I don't think people need to remind it anymore. But when we decided that we would have the new purpose, probably about 18 months ago, I said you know that's our elevator pitch, that you know you've got 10 seconds. We want to bring the drive cycling to everyone and that really has now been inbuilt, and I hear people repeating it back. I hear people repeating our values back here, some people repeating some of what I've said before back, and that just it just shows to me that it has been deeply embedded and we are acting in line with our purpose and our values I think that's brilliant, and I've I've certainly seen that in business, and I think so.

Charlie Reading:

I often use the term moonshot in that that's what you're. You know, if everyone, if you've got a list of 10 big goals, nobody that is employed in the company can list those 10 goals. If you've got one single thing, that is, you know, one sentence, one framework, I think that's really, really powerful. I think I think it really pulls people forward and ultimately it's their why isn't it? You know?

Jon Dutton:

and he who knows his why can withstand anyhow, can't they, yeah, yeah, and it is powerful and and this is that sense of yes, we can measure it go back to culture surveys and other things.

Jon Dutton:

But if you can just see people pulling together, and as you sort of alluded to earlier, charlie, we've got a broad number of different things that we deliver. So we've got a performance programme. I think it's like having a Premier League football team. You know, the way that the athletes are looked after, the way they train, the way we use technology is quite astonishing. So we've got that one end of the spectrum, but at the other end of the spectrum we just want to get people on a bike, and then we've got everything in between. So if you've got something that everyone can coalesce around in the organisation whether it's you're working with one of our Olympians or Paralympians or you're just going to try and get children on a bike, the joy of cycling is pretty powerful and we found it really commercially compelling. We've onboarded a couple of new commercial partners and it has that ubiquity to it which probably celebrates many, many people, many of the population, getting on a bike.

Charlie Reading:

If you clearly know why you're doing something, it brings other people on board, like the team are on board, clients are on board, customers are on board. It works in all ways, doesn't it? I've heard you in other conversations to talk about growth mindset and one of the things. So, as I mentioned to you when we when we spoke, my 16 year old daughter is currently going through the. So she's done the talent development centers, she's just doing the regional version, so she's kind of working her way up through the cycling world, which is a whole new landscape for me to understand. But what's been really interesting is several people within British Cycling along that journey have said we're less interested about her physiology at the moment, more interested about the psychology. I think it's a Sir Clive Woodward term. We want sponges, not rocks. So I'd love to know what your thoughts are on the growth mindset, or rocks versus sponges, in both the sporting world and also in the business world, and how do you find the sponges?

Jon Dutton:

Oh gosh, great question, charlie. I think fundamentally it comes down to resilience and building resilience, whether it's on the field of play or whether it's in the organisation, in the boardroom, the growth mindset piece I really identify with. So if I give you an example of our new strategy, maybe six, nine, 12 months ago, we asked our organisation to do three things One was have a growth mindset, secondly was to adopt an entrepreneurial spirit and the third was to feel liberated and it was to try and remove the barriers. I think as human beings we always see the problem and not the solution first. So clear all those away and we're in receipt of a significant amount of public money, but it doesn't mean to say we have to behave necessarily with a public sector mindset. So it was to try and get that blend of growth mindset, feel liberated and entrepreneurial, and I see it in our performance space. I mean the way we look at winning and winning well. So that might be anything from a skin soup development to the bike frame to the wind tunnel that we use, and these are, if you're in a sprint competition on the track. I mean these are such fine margins and that, I think, manifests it then into the athletes with the resilience that they need to keep going.

Jon Dutton:

I mean cycling, like many sports, you can fall off your bike.

Jon Dutton:

It's quite easy to fall off your bike and you see our athletes get back on the bike and and and go again and it is. It's that toughness, it's that steel determination and also from a performance perspective, the olympics and paralympics are the pinnacle for most of our riders on program. That. That's once every four years. That's a long time to wait and of course there are many other competitions in between.

Jon Dutton:

But if that, that is the one thing that you are aiming for as an individual, I think you've got to have a really strong mindset and we've seen people succeed. I think probably Laura Kenny was the last of the golden generation on our program and now we've got a new generation of young people, but a new generation of young people who probably have a different mindset maybe the TikTok generation and have had already in their young lives different experiences. So that's quite interesting from a psychological perspective of having to adapt different skill sets, and that again I think can relate, whether it's on the field of play with those athletes or whether it's managing people with different expectations who are now coming into employment.

Charlie Reading:

And is there any advice that you would give to parents that are trying to nurture this growth mindset based on everything that you've learned about it?

Jon Dutton:

I think well, parents of a 15-year-old who plays sports and just try and encourage positivity, not being, I always say, be as kind to yourself as you would be to others, and I think that's a good skill to try and master. Building resilience definitely. We all know in our life, whether it's doing what we love or, you know, at work we're going to encounter some difficult situations and you've got to be resilient. I think also being pragmatic I love pragmatism and you've just got to find a way through. Sometimes life's tough and sometimes you've got to shrug your shoulders and find a way through it, but I think also just appreciating that probably younger people now have had different experiences and you know, being a child during the pandemic, gosh that's you know everyone's doing it tough.

Claire Fudge:

So just being a bit kinder is probably not a bad thing overall I love that about you know, learning to be kind to yourself and being able to, you know, get back out there and and get back on with things as well. Well, how do you approach? I just maybe think sort of, how do you approach I'm not even going to use the word failure, actually, but not necessarily winning that you know that not as expected in those younger athletes. How do you approach that?

Jon Dutton:

you know, as, within brit, cycling with young athletes, I think the programme can be ruthless the way we select athletes. We're allowed a certain number on the programme and that is constantly reviewed. Some people might push back slightly against that, but that's performance, isn't it? We see that manifest in multiple different sports. I think an example I would give at the Olympic Games was Beth Shriever, our BMX rider, who won gold in the previous games. And Beth won every single one of her heats. She was absolutely magnificent, went through the semifinals unbeaten and came to the final and didn't succeed.

Jon Dutton:

And you saw the interviews afterwards with Beth and you saw that innate mental with Beth and you saw that innate mental resilience and she said I've had a great experience. I've given everything I've got. Bmx racing is so cruel. If you're not out the start gates at the front, you're going to struggle to to catch up and I just think it's that I've got another opportunity. I'm going to go again and I am going to be kind to myself and and develop that resilience. And yeah, we see people win, people not succeed, but pretty much every time people get back, dust themselves down, get back on the bike and go again.

Claire Fudge:

And that's not just a phrase. Is it dusting yourself off and getting back on again either? I remember actually. I remember her being interviewed and you know to hear her speak like that after you know this four-year cycle. And you know to hear her speak like that after you know this four-year cycle and, as you say, sort of building up to it. Yeah, it's amazing to hear athletes speak in that way.

Jon Dutton:

Two really good examples. I mean Matt Cavendish. Whilst we're talking of cycling, matt Cavendish, 35 stage wins at Tour de France and you know his career, just incredible, and everyone had written him off and then he got back on and then he was so close and then he got knocked off. I mean that is a manifestation of resilience. And Dame Sarah's story most celebrated Paralympian and Sarah part of our programme. You just look at her. So there are many examples of role models and I think we all need role models in work, in life, and we're fortunate that we've got, uh, many of those people absolutely, yeah, really important, I guess really important for those developing athletes as well, to have those both within sport but also outside of sport as well well, looking back at paris olympics, I was lucky enough to be there, actually, and watch a few of these cycling races, alongside triathlon, of course.

Claire Fudge:

Well, what's, what's your honest reflection on how Paris Olympics worked out for you as a, you know, as a cycling team there, and how would you, how do you sort of balance, you know, celebrating those athletes that have done well, but also that pressure to then get on and do even better next time?

Jon Dutton:

yeah, I reflect very proudly on Paris both from Olympic and Paralympic perspective. 33 medals in total achieved our camp environment where people felt supported and people performed. And we saw the likes of Emma Finucane, 21 years old at the time, her first games, and she came away with three medals, including one of those gold. We saw the performance by Tom Pidcock in in the mountain bike. And then you look at the Paralympics, you look at the performance of Kadina Cox, our absolutely red hot favorite, for her event came at the blocks. She fell off. She was absolutely distraught and then she came back in the team sprint and the team took gold.

Jon Dutton:

So there are lots and lots of things to be proud of. I think the the key thing for me is it was a young team. We had lots of fourths and fifth places, which we're really encouraged by, but we we think we met our expectations. We created some memories, we gave some people some incredible life experiences and overall, I think paris just was an astonishingly successful olympic and paralympic game. I think the nation really stood up and, uh, yeah, I'm sure we all have so many memories from it it was certainly amazing to um, to watch and be there as well.

Claire Fudge:

That atmosphere was just unreal. And when your time at British Cycling comes to an end, whenever that might be, what would you say? You know? Success for you. Having been the CEO there, what would that look like? So, leaving that position, what would success have been for you?

Jon Dutton:

that position. What would success have been for you? I think the most simplistic form to have made a difference and to leave the organization in a better place than when I joined it. Obviously, lots of people will have the view about what success means, but on some of the metrics, my three objectives coming in were to create some efficiencies was number one. Second was to grow revenue and the third thing was to invest into growth is to make sure that what we're doing now is also looking to the future. I think we're well on with that program and the financial results and all the different metrics. People can have a look at the balance scorecard and judge for themselves. But I think the softer piece is to have built confidence, to have developed some leaders in the organization.

Jon Dutton:

I'm a big fan of succession planning. I'd love to think there's loads of people in the organisation. I'm a big fan of succession planning. I'd love to think there's loads of people in the organisation that want my job and loads of people in the organisation that want my executive team's job. I think that's a really healthy culture. But yeah, it won't be measured in gold medals and what happens on the field of play. It will be measured in the business being in a better place in a really tough environment, and whenever people choose that, that's the time that that ends, you know. Hopefully I can reflect proudly on my contribution and what I've done you mentioned that you.

Charlie Reading:

You know you're clearly a big cycling fan and you obviously want to have a big impact in the world of cycling. What do you think the impact of bringing the you know you mentioned that you're a super fan of the Tour de France what do you think the impact on British cycling will be of having the Grand Depart here in in 2027?

Jon Dutton:

I think it's enormous, charlie. I think it's a really seminal moment for the organisation. I was fortunate enough to be involved in the 2014 Grand Depart in Yorkshire and the slightly curious title of Director of Readiness. I'm not sure we were ever ready, but the race came and was successful and that was a project. I mean it was phenomenally successful. The sun shone in Yorkshire. I mean millions of people came to the side of the road. I mean it was quite incredible. But I mean some of that, some of it was obviously planned and some of it was sort of organically happened.

Jon Dutton:

What we didn't have in 2014 was a long leading time. What we have now we have more than two years. We have the ability to reach England, wales and Scotland. We have six stages three in the men's, three in the women's. It feels like a moment like never before and it will be the biggest free sports event ever to come to the UK ever. So you know it is a historic moment and for us, hopefully, the tide will rise and all boats will rise from the staging of it. But British cycling needs to be proactive and really see this as a really seminal moment and certainly, for my part, I will definitely play that role.

Charlie Reading:

I'm really excited about it. I'm, yeah, very, very excited about it. But what? What do you think the impact of kind of the, the dynamics of tv coverage is going to to make on the world of cycling and and your job? So with that, you know, with what I mean by that is, you know, the, the future loss of tour of france from mainstream tv, but also, like I mean, unchained has obviously had amazing impact on viewing figures, but now we are apparently not going to get any more Unchained, which I'm very disappointed about. So, you know, where does TV coverage fit in all of this and how do you think it could be better?

Jon Dutton:

It's significant, isn't it? I mean there's a big debate going on in the sport at the moment, some of the rights being moved from free tour to behind a paywall. We obviously would campaign and advocate for as many people to see the sport as possible. There's been a big transition over the last probably 10 years of young British talent, both men and women, who we used to see on British roads, now we're riding on the continent and being incredibly successful and more British riders than ever before earning their living on the continent. What that means is we don't get to see them very often on British roads. So events like Tour of Britain, tour de France, are opportunities to do that and we obviously want it to be projected to the mass population. So I think, media rights as a whole in sport while that is a podcast, a subject all on its own, I think from a cycling perspective, you know we're still hopeful that in 27 people will be able to consume and enjoy that free to our. That's not in our gift, but yeah, we'll definitely be part of the conversation and hopefully the geography will mean that people are not too far away to actually come and hopefully stand by the side of the road and see that moment. But, yeah, we're super excited to play a role.

Jon Dutton:

An event to create visibility, an event to bring people together I think that's super special. You know, we can go all the way back to talk about social impact, social cohesion in particular. I remember in 2014, one of the biggest projects was the knitted bunting and people were knitting yellow bunting and it was amazing because it brought people together, it was intergenerational, it was about celebrating civic pride, you know. Fantastic. So we will be rolling out the knitted bunting project again when the route is announced what do you think the the thing will be then for the grand tour de part?

Claire Fudge:

then do you think it, do you think there's going to be a new theme to it, or I don't, I don't know.

Jon Dutton:

Maybe we should put it out on the podcast. If people have got ideas, please do send them in. We probably need something a bit more social media savvy, don't we? But I don't know. Just that special thing about bringing people together and, I think, the great thing about Tour de France in my 30 years, I don't think I've ever been involved in a media launch we did it a few weeks ago in edinburgh that's had such positive sentiment and it transcended. It wasn't a cycling story, it wasn't a sport story, it was a new story. And, you know, even if you felt like cycling, even if not a bike or getting a bike, like just this is an opportunity to celebrate pride in place, to celebrate everything that's great about our nation, and I think that's really, really compelling.

Claire Fudge:

And, yeah, I can't, can't wait and and as part of that will lots of you know you've talked about sort of the social impact of this Are there lots of events that will be going on around this, you know, start as well?

Jon Dutton:

Yeah, we hope so. So, whether it's cultural heritage, just a festival carnival atmosphere, and also for the areas of the UK that we don't quite reach, is we want everyone to feel that they're involved, that this is a very democratic project, isn't it that that you know we're not asking people to pay and buy tickets? Um, so we want people to feel involved. It's, yeah, really special moment.

Claire Fudge:

I mean, I think it's going to be absolutely incredible and very difficult to measure, isn't it? If you're, if you haven't got people paying for tickets, like, how do you measure how many people turn up and get involved in things as well?

Jon Dutton:

yeah, we. I remember in 2014 quite surreal moment. I was in the the gold command where the police put the helicopter up and looked over whole moss and there was a bit of a moment of wow, we can't control the people. You know there's no crowd safety measures in place, but people were coming out in just thousands and thousands of people and, yeah, just try and then roughly calculate how many people that was. But the event impact will show incredible economic impact locally.

Claire Fudge:

But if we can do that and create a social impact as well through some storytelling and some great experiences, then that will be job done you've you've talked a lot about and I've listened to you talk about kind of you you know being this, you know this entrepreneur within British Cycling, this entrepreneurial thinking. How difficult is that in a big kind of structure such as British Cycling to be and think in an entrepreneurial way?

Jon Dutton:

I don't think it is difficult at all, clara. I think to enact it you've got to build trust, you've got to bring people with you. I think there are conversations I still have every day about oh gosh, that's quite bold and brave. But yeah, I think you can think entrepreneurially that there is a big desire to bring more commercial revenue to the organisation and as sponsorship changes, that doesn't necessarily mean it has to be sponsorship. There's multiple different ways of driving revenue. But yeah, I'm not going to change who I am. Some people, I'm sure, will try and just slow me down a little bit. But if it's in the interest of the organisation, if it's something that we can reach more people, if we can give people better experiences, then it's definitely worth pushing the envelope as far as we can then it's definitely worth pushing the envelope as far as we can.

Claire Fudge:

And what lessons do you think from from your role in british cycling? What do you think small businesses, like small business owners, could take away from what you've learned within british cycling?

Jon Dutton:

I think have a purpose. I think have energy and determination. I think have a plan, but don't be afraid to change the plan as you navigate through. It's just like riding a bike, isn't it? Sometimes you want to go in a straight line and sometimes you have to navigate around and and yeah, if you believe in something, then give it everything you've got. I would always say I do a lot of speaking mainly to undergraduates, people going through a degree is follow your, your dreams, and I truly believe that, and it's the same for me. I had a dream of wanting to be a professional athlete. It didn't quite work out, but, rather than feel sorry for myself, I've managed to curate a career of which I've been incredibly privileged and, yeah, I wouldn't change any of it.

Charlie Reading:

Brilliant. I mean, that's just great advice. I think it's interesting that you've said, well, I advice. I think it's and it's interesting that you've said, well, I wanted to be a professional rugby player. It didn't happen, but actually that desire to be a professional rugby player has led you on to this incredible career doing, working in and around the sports that you love. So it doesn't just because you follow a dream. It doesn't necessarily execute in the way that you want it or plan it to, but it, uh, it does drive you towards something quite brilliant. So I think that's fantastic. You mentioned a particular book earlier on. Jim Collins is Good to Great. I think it was the book you're referring to, and we always ask guests what books have helped them on their journey. So, aside from Good to Great, what other books have you found yourself recommending to other people or do you think stand out in helping you?

Jon Dutton:

Oh gosh, I wasn't. I'm not prepared for that question, charlie. I think James Kerr Legacy is a great book. I just like escapism for me. I read lots of surreal fiction. Magnus Mills is my favourite and I love nothing more than I find it quite hard to relax. So I both cycle but also run. I find that's a great way of just helping with mental wellbeing. But I love looking forward to a holiday and just being able to read Escapism for me. I will not be sat there with leadership, learning and manuals and how to be a better person. If I go on holiday, I would just read escapist surrealism.

Charlie Reading:

Which I think is also great advice for anyone Like anyone that's checking their emails or reading the work stuff while on holiday is just yeah, I think that's a great thing to do. I was just going to say you look like you're about to talk about the checking your emails bit on the holiday.

Jon Dutton:

No, I was just about to say I read a lot every day, but I like to read short form content and just different things, and this is a piece of advice that I do offer to people beginning their career is you've got to remain contemporary, and I love to explore and find things that really stimulate your thinking. So, whether it's a McKinsey piece we've done some work with Deloitte, who do some amazing stuff or just whether it's stuff that you stumble across and it's different, I also love to go and hear people speak. I went to an event last week. It was a really fascinating presentation from Channel 4 talking about the exponential growth in YouTube amongst Gen Z, and from Channel 4 talking about the exponential growth in YouTube amongst Gen Z, and that to me, and I went away and then I read the report afterwards and it made me think. So, just stuff that stimulates you. It doesn't always have to be a particularly formal book, but that contemporary knowledge. I think as the world changes, you've got to yeah, just be curious and change a bit.

Charlie Reading:

And you mentioned James Kerr's Legacy, which is an excellent book, obviously all about the leadership, but written sort of woven through how the All Blacks approach leadership. Did you take any lessons from that that you found yourself applying to either your approach to leadership or how you run?

Jon Dutton:

your teams. I like the bit about stab me in the belly, stab me in the back, and that's definitely something I've used quite frequently, particularly in building relationships. So people I've never met. When I you remember coming to British Cycling, we employ I think it's about 275 on the payroll. You know we're of a reasonable size. I hadn't met anyone and I inherited an executive leadership team, not met anyone until the first day when I arrived. So building relationships, but that just authenticity, no surprises.

Jon Dutton:

I just love that phrase. I know it's probably quite a challenging phrase, but when you read that chapter of how the All Blacks decompress and how they feed back and that authenticity always with respect, I use an example from the Rugby League World Cup of Tonga playing Samoa, an example from the rubble league world cup of tonga playing samoa and both nations from the pacific having what many people would call a war dance, they would say a cultural celebration. And they told us before the game it's a sign of weakness to go first, so we're not going first. And we said, well, hang on a minute, someone's got to go first. We were live on the bbc.

Jon Dutton:

It was the middle game of three. We were under some massive time pressures to get it kicked off on time, and all I could envisage was just this standoff between two groups of very big men. And the most amazing thing is they didn't need us to intervene. They worked it out themselves and they went together, so it wasn't a sign of weakness. And then they beat the living hell out of each other for 80 minutes and then they came back at the end and they formed a circle in the centre and they prayed together. And I use that example a lot in business of whether you get on, whether you like each other or not, you can always have really tough, challenging conversations, but always with respect, and I think if 34 big men for the Pacific can do that, that shows absolute respect. And I think if 34 big men for the pacific can can do that, that shows absolute respect.

Charlie Reading:

And I think james kerr really articulated some of that with the all blacks I, I agree, I think I think that's a brilliant and I'd actually I've referred to that book quite a lot, but I've not kind of gone back to that particular chapter of late. So I think that's, I think that's really powerful. I I thought perhaps you were going to pull out the no dickheads policy or the sweep the sheds, but no, but it's a really great book. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks the next guest a question without knowing who that is going to be. So our last guest was Alistair Brownlee, and I think Claire has got Alistair's question lined up and I think Claire has got Alistair's question lined up.

Jon Dutton:

Yeah, so Alistair's question is what does contentment mean to you? What does contentment mean to me? Gosh, gosh. That's a very thought-provoking question, isn't it? I think contentment to me is self-fulfillment, but a balance between, like, professional achievements and personal achievements, and I know we talk a lot about work-life balance, if such a thing exists. But you know, I keep reminding myself, and I've said it to lots of other people, you know, family is the most important thing. We make ourselves busy and we come to work and we prepare and we do our best and we're very proud of our professional achievements, but you know, there is life. Life is more important than coming to work. So contentment to me would be feeling a sense of achievement, feeling proud of my family and feeling that, when I eventually step off and finish my professional career, that I've helped people along the way and made people feel good.

Charlie Reading:

I think that's. That's brilliant. I think I think the mistake. I think there is a such a thing as work-life balance. I think there's lots of people that say there's no such thing as work-life balance because they don't have work-life balance. But I think if you make a plan to put family first and have you know like even so, you can set. I would set goals in those different areas of life, not just in business, as a lot of people would do, or in fitness. So I think that's absolutely brilliant. I think it's really important. I suppose I just want to finish off with one last question, which is if you were to go back and give your sort of 21-year-old self some advice, what would it be?

Jon Dutton:

It would be follow your dreams and try and navigate through life, feeling proud of your achievements and doing your very best. And you know, I think that advice would still stand today. I've had an amazing career, absolutely amazing 30 years, been incredibly privileged, but it has been that sense of following my dreams and every now and again you get punched in the face metaphorically, and it's hard, and I think the more you, I guess, climb the ladder, the more you get into more senior positions, the more it is lonely and I often reflect that sometimes it feels pretty lonely being the leader. I wouldn't change anything at all and I've had such amazing opportunities. I remember one of my favourite opportunities 2010,.

Jon Dutton:

We organised the World Blind Football Championships, the Royal National College for the Blind in Hereford, which was qualified for London. 2012, met a most amazing man called Dave Clark. Dave is now Chief Executive of Paralympics GB. Dave was the England captain and I will remember that for the rest of my life and that was an event. We had 900 spectators every day, so not the 74,000 that we had at Old Trafford, but the skills, things I learned about myself, the skills but that's amazing and I would love to live that all over again. So yeah, follow your dreams would always be my advice brilliant, john.

Charlie Reading:

It's been an absolute privilege chatting to you. I've really loved talking. I think what you're doing with british cycling is amazing. What you achieve with the with the rugby league world cup was also absolutely incredible, particularly given the, given the, the headwind of well, multiple headwinds, as you've described. I actually actually think British Cycling, as I'm seeing it firsthand with Bronwyn, is like it seems to be like digging into it. It seems to be this much bigger, wider, all-encompassing organisation than I'd appreciated, and I think that it's so fantastic and it's such a great opportunity.

Charlie Reading:

I'm going to be cycling the length of the country in a few weeks' time and I just think it's so fantastic and it's such a great opportunity. I'm going to be cycling the length of the country in a few weeks time and and I just think it's such an amazing way of seeing the what you never see that much of the cut. Well, unless you're going to run Land's Edge, which is not many people are going to do, but equally, if you drive it, you ain't going to see it Like you see it on a front or from a bike. It is such a. It's such a wonderful thing. So, yeah, I, I think it's. I really look forward to what you're going to deliver in terms of the the grande part, and I think everything that you're planning, particularly on the on the social impact side of british cycling, is fantastic. So a huge thank you for for coming on the podcast and doing what you're doing thanks so much.

Jon Dutton:

Thank you, cloud, thank you charlie, thanks for the opportunity. It's been a really enjoyable conversation. So what did you make?

Charlie Reading:

of the interview with john. So much, thank you, claire. Thank you, charlie. Thanks for the opportunity. It's been a really enjoyable conversation. So what did you make of the interview with John?

Claire Fudge:

So much. I always write, you know, lots of little notes, things I want to remember, things to talk about afterwards and my page is full because there was so much there to take away. Do you know, one of the I think one of the biggest things that came across to me is like, as a leader, he comes across and he speaks about this, but his authenticity he's he is leading in a very authentic way and changing things as he goes and the way he talks about you know values and purpose and I know you know every leader, every business, right like everyone, talks about values, culture, purpose. I think it can become something that in business, everyone just has a page on. Nobody really lives by it, but the way that he was talking about it today that that, to me, is the biggest thing was this authenticity. And also I loved his like soft approaches and that's what you called it, didn't he? And was his TLC, trust, loyalty and anything beginning to see essentially, um. So it got my mind thinking a little there, but it all goes, apparently, so yeah.

Charlie Reading:

I agree.

Charlie Reading:

I thought he was brilliant in the sense of like, when he described when they had to make a decision around the Rugby World Cup and they just came back to their values and they went from 4v4 to a majority of nine, because you know all of them, all I don't know four V four doesn't add up to nine, but that was with the chair.

Charlie Reading:

But that that ability to make decisions through the value framework is really powerful and I and I love the way that he was measuring through the happiness index, the culture as well.

Charlie Reading:

I thought that was that was really interesting and I think there's definitely something I think this is the greatest takeaway I think that I took from it is that the more businesses can really not just define their values, their purpose, their culture, but also live and breathe it and have everyone in the business really be able to say, well, this is what it means to be a part of this organization and this is the you know the framework around which I'm going to make any decision I have to make. It's really powerful because you know the business, the people in the business know their why and then they're much more likely to go out and do something that's difficult, so I thought that was. I thought it was really good, really really interesting, and, yeah, difficult, so I thought that was. I thought it was really good, really really interesting and yeah, and I thought a really fascinating story around the World Cup as to how they use that in a practical way to make a very difficult decision. What else did you get from the conversation?

Claire Fudge:

there was some, there were lots of bit actually from my, from my area of work and work in mental health, but also work in like behavior change, because it's a huge part of the way that I certainly help to make change or help change and transformation in clients.

Claire Fudge:

And he was talking about like he was using, like the theory of change, different behavior change techniques within his like leadership as well. So that to me I didn't ask many questions about it, but that was really fascinating and and I could see I mean obviously you know the business of endurance as a podcast, you know I could really see like this idea of some of those techniques that used and played out with professional athletes in terms of behavior change, the theory of change, and then he's using it within his leadership team with sport, like that. To me I was like wow, these are like the, you know, all these like foundational elements and pieces of the jigsaw and he's just like naturally very slotting, you know, slotting them into place. So and I think, yeah, I think this just shows sort of the way that he has really shaped sort of British cycling, as he's, you know, as he's been CEO. I will say what was your thoughts on the social impact side of British Cycling and kind of what he's wanting to be able to do.

Charlie Reading:

I think it's brilliant and it's not something until I started doing more digging on what British Cycling were doing. It's not something that I ever really thought of linking them to. I mean, if I'm honest, until until, well, brahmin started cycling on the track and also me joining my local cycling club, which I've only done relatively recently because I I was a part more, my cycling gang weren't wasn't a club, so until I started digging into that, I didn't really know a huge amount about what they did outside of, obviously, the elite stuff. But I think it's brilliant and I think and we didn't really talk about it in the interview but their plan is to organize a whole lot more of the events to bring more and more people into cycling, because it is such a fantastic way and particularly with, you know, the the advent of e-bikes, it is such a fantastic way of getting people out.

Charlie Reading:

You know, not everybody can go for a run, particularly, you know, if you're old or you've been injured or whatever. So it is such a brilliant way of getting exercise in a in a low impact way, and so think it's a it's an amazing tool for change and I think you know, you've only got to go to a city like Amsterdam and you go. This is a better city as long as you don't get hit by a bike. This is a better city because of the bikes as opposed to because of, you know, being jammed full of cars. So I think there's there's so much great stuff there that you know that they're doing and planning, and what did you make of it?

Claire Fudge:

I loved it. I loved all the different like elements and actually having having done some work with some of the development team so I've had a couple of athletes on the development teams, like your daughter, and so I actually had had kind of new, quite sort of the inner workings of all the different areas that they that they have been in. And you know, I think there are so many levels aren't there in terms of where they're working from right up here, in terms of, you know, feeding into that professional Olympic pathway and developing the really tiny tots as well. You have everything in there. And keeping the really tiny tots as well. You have everything in there. And keeping the older generation.

Claire Fudge:

Let's not forget them. Because you know you've got, and I'm sure you probably have them in your cycling club, you know, like the 80-year-olds that are out on a bike. Still, I mean that is just amazing to keep everything from like literally I can't even think of the age they start working with them at, but you know, if that's developing them on, you know, a tiny little bike at the age of five or seven and then you've got 80-year-old cycling. I mean it just spans age groups, doesn't it? It's just, yeah, unreal.

Charlie Reading:

It's incredible, and so that 27 million figure of the number of people in the UK that have got on a bike in the last year. It's just incredible, isn't it? I mean it's way beyond. I mean, yeah, that blew my mind, and I think it's amazing.

Charlie Reading:

And the other thing I loved was when we were talking about books and he referred to two great books James Kerr's Legacy For anyone that wants to kind of learn more about leadership, then that is a brilliant book. And then Good to Great by Jim Collins is a phenomenal book. But the stab me in the belly not the back being his first sort of principle as to when he went into British cycling, had all of these employees that he'd never met before and he was like right, you know, that's, that's I want you to. You know, if something's not going right, tell me to my face, not behind my back, that's a great way of leading a business, and, yeah, I think there's a lot to be learned from that.

Charlie Reading:

It's certainly gone up, hasn't it?

Claire Fudge:

The Uber and the.

Charlie Reading:

Invermig. It's certainly been a growth business, hasn't it? Jeez, yeah, yeah. Having been in London, I said exactly that in London the weekend.

Charlie Reading:

Yeah, the weekend. Yeah, I'm not sure where, where, the, where the line is drawn, but yeah, no, brilliant, and I think, yeah, it's just really exciting in terms of what's going on with, you know, things like the grande part and and all the other stuff they've got planned. So, yeah, another amazing interview from an incredible man that has achieved a huge amount in the world of business, but the world of business in sport. So, for everyone else, keep on training.