Temperature Check: What is the Status of Abortion Access in the U.S.?

Whether it’s communicated in polls or at the ballot box, access to abortion is extremely popular in the United States. Yet, our rights are being blatantly stripped away—and abortion care won’t be the only sexual and reproductive right to face attacks. Fatima Goss Graves, President and CEO of the National Women’s Law Center, sits down to talk with us about the status of abortion access in the U.S., what to anticipate, and what brings her hope. 

We're experiencing a coordinated strategy by anti-abortion extremists to dismantle reproductive freedom nationwide. And they won’t stop just at abortion—contraception and gender-affirming care will face the exact same attacks, likely using the same strategies. The fight for emergency abortion care continues, too. Post-Dobbs and Trump’s “Big Beautiful Bill,” hospitals, especially in rural areas, will continue to close their obstetrics wards. Abortion care will be continuously  pushed farther out of reach. 

For more information, check out Pantsuit Politics: https://www.pantsuitpoliticsshow.com/s/podcast

Transcript

Jennie: 0:44

Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. Hey rePROs, how's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she, her. So, y'all, let's kick off with some housekeeping. One I just want to mention again, our merch store. We have such cute merchandise, a lot of designs from Liberal Jane, but also from our in-house designer, Tanya. You can get t-shirts and water bottles and coffee mugs and a bag and a tote. I feel like there's some other things I'm forgetting. They're very cute. We have shared pictures on social. There's a super cute picture of Cinder giving her seal of approval to all of the merch that I ordered for myself. I have been take carrying my bag around. I have worn my t-shirts that I got already. I love all of them. I love the designs, and I would love for y'all to check them out. So, if you haven't visited our Bonfire store, please make sure to check it out. We'll have links in the show notes. But yeah, check it out. And I guess also just if you love us, also if you could take a couple minutes to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform, that would be amazing. It helps people find it, helps people find the podcast, and helps us find our audience. And I think the last thing I'll say is something I haven't mentioned in a while. If you would like to donate to us, you can also donate to rePROs Fight Back. And we still have a giveaway where if you give $25 to the podcast, you get all of our amazing Repro stickers. And if you donate $50, you get all of the stickers plus a tote bag that you cannot get through the bonfire store that says abortion is a human right, not a dirty word. I love that bag. I carry that one around a lot. It gets lots of comments, but that one is only available for people who have donated. So make sure to donate and get your bag for free. Okay. I think that's enough housekeeping. I am really enjoying the start of fall. It's been so nice here, minus my allergies. You'll hear them coming through in some of the episodes. They're not too bad today. Um, I get allergy induced to asthma, so I get this like wheezy cough that is unpleasant, but I feel good. But I do have a little bit of a cough right now, but it's not too bad. But some of the others I recorded recently that are coming out next week, you'll it's a little worse. So sorry, y'all. Let's see what else is going on. I feel like I am ready to bake something apple-y. I don't know what yet. I'm gonna make something this weekend. Maybe an apple crisp or I don't know, maybe some something kind of bread with apples in it. I don't know. I have a bunch of apples that I need to do something with. So, maybe I'll do some baking this weekend. I feel like I haven't been baking as much for a while. I don't know. I feel like this year has not been the year of baking for me. It has really fallen off on what I want to do. And I miss it. I miss doing the baking. But as soon as it comes to Sunday and when I would normally do my Sunday bakes, like I just haven't had the will to do it. But I need to change that because I have really enjoyed having fresh baked bread and stuff uh when I was doing it. So, you know, maybe I'll turn around and do some more baking soon. I think I'm gonna stop there. I don't feel like I have a lot of other things to share at the moment. I'll have a bunch coming up soon, but not right now. But I am so excited for today's episode, y'all. I have on Fatima Goss Graves with the National Women's Law Center. She is somebody who I love listening to speak. She always has so much to say around our issues. And I always find her just so engaging and insightful and thoughtful. And I'm just beyond excited to have her on the podcast. Honestly, y'all, when I found out she was gonna do it, it made my day. So I'm just so, so, so excited. So, with that, let's go to my interview with Fatima. Hi, Fatima. Thank you so much for being here today. Oh, I'm so glad to join you. Before we get started, would you like to take a second and introduce yourself?

Fatima: 4:58

Sure. I'm Fatima Goss Graves. I'm President and CEO at the National Women's Law Center.

Jennie: 5:05

What I'm so excited to have you here. I love y'all's work and I love hearing you speak. So, I'm just so grateful to have you on the podcast today. And so, I thought we'd talk about abortion access and what we're kind of facing right now because it feels it still feels like a bit of a mess, and there are many different ways we could take it, but maybe I'll just start with like a broad, like, what are what are you looking at right now?

Fatima: 5:28

Yeah, well, I'm- "mess" and "messy" are are two probably accurate words to describe what we're dealing with right now. And it kind of is this strange thing where we are literally in the midst of a long-planned, long-time coordinated strategy by anti-abortion extremists to dismantle reproductive freedom nationwide. They aren't stopping at abortion and they aren't stopping in certain states. They have a nationwide goal around this. But they also know that access to abortion is super popular in this country. Freedom to decide around your families, your bodies, they really shouldn't be up to debate. And that's what people have said again and again, whenever they've had a chance, really, to directly express their views on abortion, whether it's in polls or at the ballot box. So, unlike a lot of the things that we're seeing happening right now, um, where you might have the president loud and proud and strongly using rhetoric to rile up his base and to ensure that people are afraid. On abortion, they're trying to fly as quiet as they can under the radar while also taking away our freedoms. And so it's really crucial that people who are covering this time, as messy and chaotic as it is, keep a really sharp eye on the attacks, whether they are subtle or quiet or not, so that the public actually knows what is happening, and so that lawmakers and um people who have an opportunity to do something about it and who can be held accountable for stripping away our rights um understand that that's what's at stake.

Jennie: 7:27

I really love that you talked about that it's not gonna stop at abortion, and I think we had a really clear signal of that recently. The administration has been talking about burning $10 million worth of contraception that was supposed to go to women overseas. And in their statement, they talked about it as abortifacient birth control when it was IUDs, implants, birth control pills, and injectables.

Fatima: 7:51

Yeah, I mean, we can see they're not really trying to hide that much, I guess, how they how they plan to go after contraception. And they're gonna do it basically how they went after abortion. But first they have to claim that contraception is abortion, right? And so, that's both not scientifically true, but they believe that if they call it abortion or use terms like "abortion aid," which people are like, what is that? That that will lead people to not like contraception. I mean, the statistics around this are pretty clear. Like, 90% of women in this country have used contraception at some point. And so, when you start going after contraception, restricting access to it, making it harder to get, or doing something as wild as burning it, I mean, the first thing you gotta ask is: where is DOGE? Why are you how how is it efficient to burn contraception that was already acquired and ready to be delivered to ensure that people have access to their health care? But what they're looking to do really is make it so that people are confused. They might support contraception, but maybe there's something that they need to know about this. And so again, our task in this time is to ensure that people are aware that it's happening, that it doesn't fly on the radar, and that people are not confused about the science, which leads me to one more point that I think is really important to make. It's how they plan to go after contraception, following the playbook that they use to go after abortion. You know, access to abortion is abortion care is safe. We know that. But the way that they attacked it was by just declaring it to be "unsafe." Medication abortion is safe. We know that, that it is safe, that it is effective, that it has been used for decades. Its safety rating is better than most things that people find in their medicine cabinets. And now what they're trying to do to go after it is just sort of say, we we've declared it unsafe. Not because there is scientific evidence of it, but because they're trying to confuse and put forward a playbook that allows people to be less sure than they are about their support. That same effort is going to be used to contraception. And we cannot allow it. We cannot allow the chaos, we cannot allow the undermining of science, and we cannot allow the total disregarding of our fundamental freedoms to lead to people not getting the critical care that they need.

Jennie: 10:56

Yeah, it's amazing how you talk about seeing the abortion playbook being played out with contraception because you're also seeing it being played out around gender-affirming care. That's right. You're seeing the exact same thing being done in that space and a lot of talking heads not learning the lessons of the abortion rights movement that they need to have learned to protect gender-affirming care.

Fatima: 11:18

That's absolutely right. We're both seeing the playbook that they use to undermine abortion care play out in gender-affirming care, but now you've had this acceleration from the administration and they have they have sort of rallied around the idea that the polling around trans folks in this time, after you know, a decade of a giant misinformation campaign, is is at levels that are really low. The public is really confused, and they are more susceptible to the hateful and uninformed rhetoric. So, that's when they are striking, right? We saw that happen around abortion for many, many years, where they use misinformation to make people confused about the care that people needed. And it really took that fundamental freedom of abortion access going away, and the many courageous people who were willing to tell their stories and share their experience of what their life was like when they couldn't access the care they need to ensure that the public paid attention correctly. And in this time where so many people are terrified that they won't be able to get the care that they need. When I've talked personally to so many parents who are worried about their own kids and not being able to continue their care. I've talked to adults who are worried about their ability to get their care going forward. All of that isn't more enabled in the context of a cultural and state-led misinformation and demonization campaign, right? The more they make us feel like people who need access to this care are othered and not worthy or not good people, the more they're able to do things to make it hard to get that care. We saw that happen in abortion. We're seeing it in real time happening around gender-affirming care, and we will see it happen around contraception.

Jennie: 13:32

You know, you talk about stories, and we've seen how powerful stories are in changing people's minds. And one of those areas that has really shown post-Dobbs is around stories around emergency access to abortion. What is the state of trying to access abortion in an emergency situation right now? There was so much going on around it, and it's begun, it feels like quiet for a little bit, but things are still happening, right?

Fatima: 13:59

Yeah, for sure. And again, that quiet is not an accident, right? And then I've been so grateful to the many storytellers who have given us the gift of their stories, who have shared their experiences so that people understand that this is happening. But if I could take a step back, what ended up happening was less than two months after taking office, the Trump administration's Department of Justice dismissed a case that was challenging and full and total abortion ban in the state of Idaho. It's one of the strictest in the country. The state of Idaho prohibits abortion even when the health of the person who is pregnant is at risk. And in doing so, the Trump administration sided with the many, many extremists who want to allow doctors to continue to turn away patients who need emergency care. We've had these clients as well. It is devastating. People going from hospital to hospital or state to state when they're in a state of emergency. It's a scary thing and it should not ever happen. The Supreme Court considered the case and it ultimately sent it back to the lower courts without a decision. And so now we're in this situation where the Trump administration just dismissed it. And so the question that people have is what is going to happen to this fight? Fortunately, a hospital came in and the case will be able to continue, but not because the Trump administration is continuing to say that Idaho has a law that is not allowed because it doesn't provide for the health of the person who's actually pregnant. The Trump administration also rescinded guidance that reaffirmed that health care providers had to provide emergency abortion care to patients who are in medical crisis. And when that guidance was rescinded, you know, many of us objected, we readied litigation, and then the Trump administration put out new guidance that sent a really terrible signal and it has created a lot of confusion in hospital rooms because under this guidance, states can block hospitals from providing health and life-saving care to pregnant people when they're in crisis. And so we're running the risk of having the same thing where patients are being denied access to care. We're running the risk of having the same thing of patients being able to having to go from state to state when they're in a state of emergency. You know, if you go back to the stories you've heard, right, this the people who have shared their really harrowing experience of being in medical crisis, sometimes believing they were going to die, some being in sepsis or other conditions and not getting able to get, not being able to get the care they need, you realize that this question of emergency abortion care, it is about our health, it is about our future fertility, and it is actually about our lives. And so this administration, the Trump administration, has pretty squarely aligned itself with anti-abortion politicians who are seeking to just do a nationwide ban on all abortion care, including abortion care. That is emergency abortion care.

Jennie: 17:48

You know, and I think the big thing for me is like none of this is happening in a vacuum, right? We have a maternal mortality crisis in this country, particularly for Black women. We are also seeing post-ops uh hospitals closing their OB wards. Like this is pushing health care further out of reach for pregnant people, and this is only going to compound this healthcare crisis we currently have.

Fatima: 18:13

Yeah, it's definitely not happening in a vacuum at all. It is layered on top of a real crisis in maternal health that is worse for Black and Indigenous women, right? The rates there are especially shocking. But really, pregnancy in this country is way too uneven. And already we were having a challenge, especially in rural areas, of having enough access to medical care and maternity wards shutting down. And then over the summer, what you saw was President Trump's "Big, Beautiful Bill." We call it the Big Ugly Bill, because one of the things that it does is gut Medicaid. And we know that hospitals around the country will close. Almost half of all births in this country are paid for by Medicaid. And so that is going to be a challenge not only to the individuals who are forced off of Medicaid, and you know, there will be millions that will lose their health coverage as a result of this bill. But the health ecosystem also isn't in a vacuum, and there will be hospitals that close, especially in rural parts of the country.

Jennie: 19:39

This is one of those that hits especially close to home for me. I grew up in rural Wisconsin. The hospital I would have gone to uh is a rural hospital, and it is the only public hospital in southern Wisconsin. And so, that is really scary to think that what this could mean for that local hospital that is seeing people who don't have insurance and what it would mean for their future access to care.

Fatima: 20:03

Yeah, I mean, I think the really difficult thing is that this bill that was shoved down the American people's throats over this summer was set up with the hope that people would either forget about it or not sure who to be upset about it as their hospitals close, as the cost of health care rises, as they lose their insurance, or the cost of their own insurance goes up. But we have to be clear in reminding people exactly what happened in that bill, but also connecting it to the other steps that have been taken that already have made access to health care, especially during pregnancy, a giant challenge. None of this is about ensuring that people can get the best care that they can. None of this is about ensuring that you are supporting pregnancy or improving birth outcomes that are well. All of this is about controlling our bodies, our freedoms, our futures. It does not make sense, and it also does not match what people in this country say that they want. The irony is there's there is not an area where people disagree really. Almost nine out of ten people in this country support protecting access to emergency abortion care for patients who need it. That should be the beginning and the end of the conversation.

Jennie: 21:32

Yeah, and I mean we've touched on this a little bit, but if this push to, you know, the lawsuit over EMTALA [Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act], which uh ensures that people can have access to abortion in emergencies when their health or life is at risk, you know, this is still working through the lawsuit. Like you said, what are some of the impacts we could see if we get a bad ruling on people's lives? Because this is what we're talking about.

Fatima: 21:56

Right. I mean, we're absolutely talking about the lives and the health of people in this country. Pregnancy shouldn't be a death sentence. People shouldn't have to flee their states if they're in the midst of pregnancy, their pregnancy going wrong. But the thing is, most people at some point in their pregnancy go to the hospital. You always hope that everything is fine. Sometimes it's just not fine. And we don't often tell those stories. Those are not like the happy birth ending stories, those are the sadder stories when something goes wrong. But the idea that going to an emergency room to get the care you need might not result in the care, might result in criminalization, might result in you being turned away, those are all the future outcomes that we can understand will come. If Idaho's law is allowed to go into effect, if we see more states move forward with laws that allow doctors to turn away people who are in need of emergency abortion care. You know, I don't want to hear more stories about people going from state to state or people, you know, bleeding in parking lots of hospitals. That's not what should happen in this country. There is giant agreement around that and knowledge that emergency abortion care saves lives and that anyone who is pregnant and needs medical care should receive urgent and critical care if they need it.

Jennie: 23:45

It really does feel at times like it's a race to the bottom to see like who can pass the most egregious bill and it's still continuing, right? Like, we have not seen the stop-

Fatima: 23:55

Well, I want to see the race to the top.

Jennie: 23:57

Yes. 

Fatima: 23:56

And I would say that is another bright spot in this time. And at the same time, you do see some states trying to outplay each other to see who could pass the cruelest, silliest bill that would actually make it more possible that pregnant people lose their lives. We're also seeing some states looking to protect providers, passing things like shield laws so that providers in their states can focus on providing the care that they know that they are trained to provide, that they can follow their medical oaths rather than you know, in a corner with their lawyers to figure out if they go to jail if they provide emergency abortion care. That's what's happening right now in a lot of parts of the country. So, the states that are passing shield laws, the states that are taking steps to train more medical providers, the states that are, you know, recruiting more medical providers from hostile state, there, you know, there are things that are happening right now that are giving me great hope that we will continue to fight for not only our freedoms, but the health and and well-being of people in this country, and and that that gives me a lot of hope.

Jennie: 25:14

I love talking about what gives gives you hope in this moment because it can feel kind of bleak, but there is so much that is being done that is bringing me hope. Okay. So we'll keep that in mind, but I am gonna ask the like, what is something you're keeping an eye on that you're worried about? But then also, what is something you're keeping an eye on that is giving you hope that's coming down the pipe?

Fatima: 25:35

Yeah, I'm deeply worried about a quiet effort to move forward a national abortion ban. I don't think that they are playing around. I've read Project 2025. We have summaries of it on the National Women's Law Center website, and that's their plan. And in so many other areas, we have seen them work to fulfill Project 2025 as fast as possible. So, I believe they're going after medication abortion. I believe they want to revive a centuries-year-old law called the Comstock Act and make it so that it's illegal to mail anything related to abortion. That's coming. I see it coming. I take the threat seriously, and I think people in this country should not look away from that. I know that they are quietly dismantling our rights and our freedoms, and that just means we all have to be a little bit louder. I will say the thing that is giving me a lot of hope right now continues to be the storytellers. Many of them, you know, and some as a part of the election in 2024 told their stories for the first time, were on national stages, some even cut TV ads. They haven't gone away. And that is a thing that will always inspire me. They are continuing to force people to hear their stories. That's true for the many women who were turned away from hospitals and want people to know what that's like. That's true from the parents and the families of women who lost their lives, women in Georgia and in Texas who didn't survive poor medical care, who didn't survive these outrageous laws that are not about patient health, that are only about control. And so, that's giving me hope. And I think we're gonna continue to see them be a force.

Jennie: 27:43

Oh, I love that answer. I feel like mine is usually abortion funds and the clinics, like all the people on the ground who are doing everything they can to make sure people get the care they need. Like that gives me so much hope to continue the fight every day. But I also love the storyteller one. Like, that's great because it brings so much attention and does so much to combat stigma, which we are all just steeped in everywhere.

Fatima: 28:07

Absolutely. Here, here always to abortion funds and abortion providers who are working locally, they're doing it under a lot of pressure, a lot of threat, need that is far greater than it was before, resources that are far fewer. And so, yeah, they're my heroes too.

Jennie: 28:27

Okay, before we wrap things up, I feel like this would be a giant missed opportunity if we did not comment on —yesterday as we are recording— yesterday's action by RFK Jr. and HHS and the White House linking autism to the use of Tylenol during pregnancy. This feels like something we should at least mention. So, Fatima, what are you thinking about this?

Fatima: 28:50

So, here's one of the things about the latest attack on Tylenol that is a part of a broader effort to attack pregnancy and not be led by the science. It is right now we are hearing from women around the country who are giantly confused, who don't know what to do. But what they do know is that pregnant women are being blamed for everything, right? So it's very easy to punish and blame pregnant women as a strategy. We deserve so much more. We deserve to be able to have healthy pregnancies, to not be attacked by the state, and to not have either our medical providers or everyday people confused by what is coming out of health and human services. It is dangerous behavior.

Jennie: 29:44

Okay, so I want to be cognizant of the time and respectful of yours, but I always like to end focusing on action, not just what's bad, but what can the audience do? How can people get involved in this moment?

Fatima: 29:56

Well, the thing that I want everyone to take away is that they need to gather their people and share information. One of the things that we know is that people are more hopeful when they are connected and they are more likely to take action if they're encouraged to do so by someone they know. So you can sign up for the National Women's Law Center's information or for another. I'm wanting you to identify three other people that you're gonna ask to be your people. You're gonna make sure they know what's going on, you're gonna have them take action with you, and you're gonna see yourself as a crew that is moving together in this time.

Jennie: 30:42

I love that. Fatima, thank you so much for being here today. It was such a pleasure to talk to you. Thanks for having me. Okay, y'all. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Fatima. I had such a great time talking to her about honestly a whole range of issues. So thank you, Fatima, for doing this. It was so wonderful to talk to you. And with that, I will see everyone next week. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter, or @ReprosFB on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all!