Reimagining U.S. Foreign Assistance

The U.S. government used to be the largest donor in family planning assistance at $400 million a year. There has been an explicit loss of U.S. leadership and resources in contemporary global health and foreign aid, with significant, negative impacts on supply and health outcomes. Anu Kumar, President and CEO at Ipas, sits down to talk with us about the current status of U.S. foreign assistance and how we can reimagine it for the better.

The U.S. government has not been supporting abortion care for 50 years since the Helms Amendment was passed in 1973, and contraception has been facing increasing attacks. The campaign of incorrectly and harmfully equating contraceptives with abortifacients is coming to a head. In addition, there is $9.7 billion dollars’ worth of contraception impacted by Trump’s foreign aid freeze, which are now sitting in a Belgian warehouse. But we can imagine a more comprehensive, better performing foreign assistance: a reduced transactional quality and the ability for recipient countries to form their own assistance delivery.

Transcript

Jennie: 0:18

Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro] I am still dealing with this stupid cough. It is still working its way out. It is mostly gone, but it is still around enough to really annoy me. So, sorry if you hear some wheezing. I am very excited. I am recording this the week before y'all are hearing it. Because I am at the annual American Public Health Association conference this week. So if you're at APHA and you hear this when it comes out, swing by our booth, make sure to come say hi. I always love getting to talk to people who listen to the podcast. It is honestly one of my favorite parts of going to APHA is getting to meet a bunch of people who love the podcast. It just makes my heart so happy. And I really, I just it I love meeting y'all. It makes me just, it brings me so much joy. I don't know what to say. It just is wonderful. So, we are doing something special for y'all now. So we're doing this at APHA, but I wanted to make sure that we are also doing it for everybody who is part of our audience. So, we are doing a merch giveaway. What?! So, if you love our merch, well, first you can go ahead and buy some. But also, we are doing a fun giveaway. So if you would send us a tweet or Blue sky or whatever, whatever your favorite social media platform is, tag us and tell us either why you love the podcast, because I always want to know. I always want to know what about it makes you happy. Or you can tell us why you fight for sexual and reproductive health and rights. And each time, each time you post equals one entry. So if you post four times, you get four entries into the giveaway. So just make sure to tag rePROs on whatever social media platform you share. You can do a video. I would love to see a video. You can just write a post, you can make a graphic, whatever makes you happy. Send it to us in the next two weeks, let's say. And we will enter all of your entries into a giveaway and we will reach out to you and make sure you get a bunch of fun repros merge. How fun is that? I am so excited. I can't wait to get merch into all of y'all's hands. But also, merch makes great gifts. So if you want to go and buy some from our Bonfire store, please feel free to do that as well. I'm sure we will be posting about it on social media, so just keep an eye out for that and you can learn more details. But really, just tag us on social, tell us why you love the podcast, or tell us why you fight for sexual and reproductive health and rights. And each time you post, you get one entry into the giveaway. Make sure to tag us so that we can see it so we know what happened, and then we'll put your entry in the pot. Okay. I'm so excited for that, y'all. I'm so excited to see people who are at APHA. Like I said, I love meeting our audience. It really does make my heart happy. I love when y'all email or reach out to us on social. I just love hearing from y'all. It really does make my day a little brighter. So, thank you. With that, I think I don't really feel like I have a ton of other things to talk about. I honestly feel like I just recorded the intro for last week's episode. Almost kind of did, but that's okay. So let's just turn to this week. This week, we haven't talked about global in a while and what is happening around global sexual and reproductive health in a little while. So I'm very excited to have join me today, Anu Kumar with Ipas to talk about the state of sexual and reproductive health and the what this means with the loss of US leadership. So, with that, let's go into my interview with Anu. Hi, Anu, thank you so much for being here.

Anu: 3:57

My pleasure. Good to be with you.

Jennie: 3:58

Before we get started, would you like to take a second and introduce yourself?

Anu: 4:02

I'd be happy to. Anu Kumar. I'm President and CEO of Ipas. Ipas is a leading international organization and working to advance reproductive justice, and we focus on access to abortion and contraception.

Jennie: 4:14

I'm so excited to have you here today to talk about. I feel like it's been a little while since I've had a global conversation on the podcast, so happy to like dig into that a little bit. But I think in the moment right now, I'm really feeling this loss of US leadership with them cutting off foreign assistance, particularly around the issues we work on. What are we seeing as kind of some of the impacts around that?

Anu: 4:39

Yeah, I mean, as you say, there's a significant amount of resources that have been lost in the family planning community in particular. You know, and I want to remind you and your listeners that the US government has not been supporting abortion care for 50 years since the Helms Amendment was passed in 1973. Abortion care has never been a part of U.S. foreign assistance. So that is a loss that we've been living with for decades, and indeed it's sort of the origin story of Ipas and how we came into being in 1973. We are actually over 50 years old at this point. So, you know, there's always been this bifurcation in US foreign assistance between family planning, maternal health work, and then the rest of abortion care and other work that's that was handled by other organizations and other donors. But in the contraception world, yeah, what we're seeing is a really significant loss in resources. You know, the US government was the largest donor in family planning assistance at $400 million a year, which is a lot, but to be honest, it's not that much considering that the overall you know budget for foreign assistance was like $50 billion. And so it's you know, the portion that was that was dedicated towards contraception and family planning was was really quite a small amount given the overall amount that was being spent on foreign assistance. Nonetheless, it has a really significant impact. I mean, what we're seeing now is shortages of commodities, particularly you know things like condoms and IUDs and implants, and you know, that has real life implications. And in addition to the commodities, the US government was also supporting health systems, health systems around the world on how to provide care. They were paying for the salaries of many health workers in many systems around the world. So, for example, maybe maybe it would help to kind of go into a little bit of a country example. I'll talk about the Democratic Republic of Congo, which is a very significant big country in Africa, but already had very weak health systems, and as you probably know, significantly impacted by humanitarian crises. So, the departure of US government funds has essentially led to a collapse of its health system. And the Democratic Republic of Congo, the government, is having a hard time filling in the gap because it wasn't part of their budget, right? They were planning on having USAID support as part of their annual budget, and so without it, they're really struggling as to how to fill that gap. So in that country, the support was focused on training healthcare providers, on commodities, on purchasing healthcare equipment. So without all of that, it means that there's really a crisis in the country in terms of how they're able to deliver care to their citizens. So, yeah, that's one example of what we're what we're seeing.

Jennie: 7:48

I think another thing that has been going on recently that is really stuck in my mind is a little bit of a departure. We're not gonna focus too much on the $10 million worth of contraception that the US wants to destroy because we're reporting this early, so by the time y'all hear this, things could have completely changed. But as of the time we are recording this, they have not been destroyed. And there was a New York Times story that came up that said they were, and then a follow-up saying that's not true. But a USAID official statement made it sound like there was "abortifacient" birth control. And maybe we should just like take a moment and address that bit, because that is a bit of a departure, and it's really troubling to see that coming from the US government.

Anu: 8:35

Yes, and I think that will be the lasting impact of this episode, regardless of what happens with these contraceptives, whether they're burned or not burned. This creation of this term abortifacient birth control is really dangerous. So, let's be clear, there is no such thing as abortofacient birth control. And they it should raise a red flag for us all. It's a clear signal that the administration fully intends to roll back the right and access to contraception in general. And we're also seeing it here in the US in terms of the bill that's being proposed uh right now in South Carolina, which is essentially using that same kind of language to call into question what they call birth control, that is, that can interrupt ovulation. I think that's how they describe it in that particular.

Jennie: 9:25

I mean, it kind of goes back to, like, Hobby Lobby, right?

Anu: 9:28

In a sense.

Jennie: 9:29

Because wasn't that part of their argument, right? Like, that they didn't want to cover birth control because it caused abortions?

Anu: 9:34

Yes. Yes, in a sense, they wanted to carve out for contraception because they objected to the forms of contraception that were included. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. So in this bill, you know, it basically changes the definition of what is considered a contraceptive, and and and and they want to exclude anything that prevents ovulation or implantation of a fertilized ovum. So, that rules out a number of contraceptives that we use quite frequently in the United States and and around the world. But I think this is what's really dangerous about what's happening with this stash of contraception that may or may not be destroyed in this warehouse, is that they are actually equating the contraception with abortive patients. And this is not true. Now, those of us who've been working on this issue for a long time have been saying for decades that there it's this is not just about abortion, that they are actually coming for our contraception, and they're coming for our contraception and our abortion care because they are terrified and worried about this demographic decline. But that too is kind of a cover argument for essentially making sure that the United States becomes a country where only certain people are allowed to reproduce and others are not. And I don't mean just Black people and white people, but I also mean LGBTQI individuals, people even who seek IVF, which is something that is also under attack in the South Carolina bill. So, you know, they began with abortion, but it's really the slippery uh road to all forms of reproductive health care or to multiple forms.

Jennie: 11:20

And just to be like a little bit explicit, so that you understand it's the birth control you probably could be using, right? Like it's talking about IUDs, it's talking about emergency contraception in some cases, not necessarily what's in the warehouse, but like it in other instances what's talked about. So, this could be birth control that you are actually using that is what they are targeting.

Anu: 11:44

Exactly. Millions and millions of American women use or have used IUDs, emergency contraception. Yeah. And I don't really know, and I'm curious to know how far they're going to take this argument because theoretically, implants and oral contraceptives could also qualify because oral contraceptives do stop ovulation.

Jennie: 12:08

Okay. Before we started talking, we said we didn't want to focus on the terrible. So, let's not do that. And if there's one, I mean, it doesn't feel right to say silver lining because things are really bad right now without the loss of US funding. But something that good could that could come out of it is reimagining what this, what global assistance or what this looks like, and building it in a better way, to dream a better system that is more inclusive and is meeting the needs of people on the ground with their input. So, what are what could be what could we build back better?

Anu: 12:50

So, I definitely want to talk about that, but before we get there, Jennie, if I could just make one other comment about the role of the US in the in the world today. I mean, we definitely are and remain obviously an economic superpower uh in and uh an ex and also a cultural superpower in many ways. You know, our music, our art, our films are extremely popular around the world. And yet I do feel that the US is slipping from its role as a global influencer because it's lost a lot of credibility in the past, not just the past year, but but you know, in in many ways recently. So I was quite surprised uh after the Dobbs decision that you know everyone we were all really worried that this was going to result in more restrictions around the world on abortion care. And we've seen some attempts for that, but we haven't seen much that's been successful. In fact, what's been interesting to observe is that many countries were so alarmed by what happened with Dobbs, particularly European countries, that they took a look at their laws and said, oh wow, we have a barrier here, we have, we didn't realize we put this barrier there. And they began to remove these barriers, and as you know, France actually enshrined the right to abortion in their constitution. So it had an interesting impact and it wasn't all negative. I think the alarm and shock that it caused actually made some activists in some countries say, yeah, we we can do better, and indeed we should do better, because we never thought the United States would go this far. And similarly, I think with what we're seeing with mifopristone and the attacks on mifepristone in the US, you know, this is extremely worrisome, and you know, over 60% of abortions in the United States are done using mifepristone. They're very safe, it's a very effective method, it's a method that's approved by the World Health Organization, and yet our FDA could be poised to remove mifepristone from the US market, and that would send shock waves in the rest of the world, but it remains to be seen whether those shock waves would all be negative. I just feel like the US has really lost a lot of its leadership role on certainly on reproductive health and rights, but in foreign assistance more generally. So getting back to your original question of how could we reimagine foreign assistance, I think the way that the US government conducted itself in this, in the cutting of foreign aid in such a precipitous manner really jolted people and countries and governments and made them realize that what had been a reliable partner was no longer a reliable partner. And so when you, you know, it's just like any relationship, when you realize that the person you're negotiating with, the person that you're working with is actually not reliable, you make contingency plans, right? You start figuring out, okay, well, I need to figure out how to do this on my own, I need to share up other partnerships, I need to figure out plan, you know, B, C, D, and E, because this is not a reliable partner. So I do think it offers us an opportunity. I mean, just recently I saw that the government of Nigeria has actually stepped up its contribution, its domestic financing for contraception. I think it went from 4 million to 13 million. So, you know, it's a significant increase. It's not enough, but it's a significant increase and it's definitely a step in the right direction. And so, I think additional push towards domestic financing of really what are essential health services is going to be what we're what we're going to see. One thing that gets lost in the conversation about US foreign assistance, because it's so important and significant, and I don't want to downplay its significance because, you know, the people that are reliant on malaria pills and HIV medication and tuberculosis, you know, these are people's, these are people's lives that we're talking about. And yet I do want to point out that US, the way that US foreign assistance was delivered was far from ideal. There was always a transactional quality to it. And frankly, just as there is for any governmental assistance. It's not where the United States is not alone in this. There's, you know, so but but the fact that the US is not present or is is less of a player now allows donor, you know, recipient countries to imagine and think about how they should be providing care for their citizens. And it also allows citizens and active advocacy organizations to push their governments to actually make good on their obligations. You know, is it right that governments in poor in African countries are dependent on an outside donor to provide essential health services? This is a question that the citizens of those countries need to pose and need to debate and need to discuss. Is this how we want to conduct our country, how we want to govern our country? So, I think it's provoking some of those conversations, and that could be good. That could actually be a step in the right direction. You know, a lot of the way US government assistance was was conducted was through contracts, and there it was very project-based. It was like, you know, we want to provide X number of services in this location for a Y number of people. It was a very project-based approach. And those of us who have not been part of that ecosystem, the US government ecosystem, which Ipas has not been because we do not receive US government funds, we have been part of an ecosystem that is really building a movement to change, a movement for social justice, a movement for reproductive justice, in the case of Ipas, a movement for gender justice. And that is a very rich and diverse ecosystem. And movement building is not project-based. And I think that could be another positive outcome of this reduction in U.S. foreign assistance.

Jennie: 19:25

I was thinking kind of along similar lines of there had been a big push around like integration of services, but there were funding streams, right? It was like here is your HIV assistance, here is your family planning assistance. And with things like the Global Gag Rule that reinforced keeping sexual and reproductive health separate from other forms of health care, but that's not how people live their lives, right? That's not how you want to access services. You want to be able to go to a clinic and have all of your needs met and not try and find a clinic where you can get this or a clinic where you could get that. So, this could offer a great opportunity without having those restrictions that the US government had with global gag rule, Helms, right? You can bring abortion services in from being separate. You can have a clinic where you can go to get health care instead of having to go to multiple places.

Anu: 20:22

Exactly. Exactly, right. And so, without the US foreign assistance or a significant reduction in it, we have a reduction in the impact of the gag rule and the Helms Amendment. So that's right. The thing that's worrisome though is that most of the countries that we're talking about are so poor and are so much in debt that it's going to be very difficult for them to resist American money. They need it. They need it. And it's very likely that future American money is going to be even more heavily conditioned. And I mean it remains to be seen, but you know, very likely that that the gag rule will have, will apply to all foreign assistants. It could be, it could apply to more than just foreign NGOs, it could apply to US NGOs, it could apply to multilateral organizations, and they might include more kinds of services and care like gender-affirming care or you know, who knows about DEI. You know, there's there's a lot that we don't we don't know what's what's going to happen, but it's very likely that it's going to be even more, I would say, um transactional and uh ideologically restricted.

Jennie: 21:34

And you all may already know this because it may have happened between the time we recorded and it came out, but we will have a much deeper dive on what happens with the global gag roll when it actually happens. But yeah, no, uh it it could have a much broader impact. But again, thinking of the possibilities of you know, not aid coming from a top-down, this is what we're doing, but having communities more involved and what they need is like a great vision for the future to like think of building it to meet, be more justice focused than just top-down outsiders saying this is what we're giving you.

Anu: 22:17

Yeah, and I think those conversations are happening. You know, there's there are discussions and conversations that are happening both uh at the country level, and I know that IPAS staff and colleagues are involved in some of those discussions about you know health financing, but there are also conversations that are taking place at the global level about you know what do we do. I think the most difficult thing has been the speed at which USAID was dismantled.

Jennie: 22:43

There was no preparation for anybody. And how do you fill that gap when your budget's already committed and you weren't expecting to all of a sudden lose all of these services or supplies that were provided?

Anu: 22:56

Exactly. And you know, in addition to USAID, you know, UNFPA has also been impacted, and so this is also an issue because so many of the reproductive health supplies and commodities are purchased by and through UNFPA. So, you know, we're looking at a situation where uh some of the leading organizations are actually really hard hit. And then, of course, the NGO sector is it, you know, particularly those organizations that were dependent on US government funds, have just been really decimated. And so many staff and individuals have lost their jobs, and then you know the impact on real people's lives in country, the beneficiaries of US government assistance is also significant. So it the ripple effect is just really profound, and I think everyone is trying to adjust to this new reality. You know, it reminds me of the way that I've been reading about how the economic world order is also being re-imagined and and kind of reshuffled because the US is is not because of the tariffs. So, you know, China actually has it it's doing it's doing well in terms of exports because it's found additional markets. Brazil is exporting more to China and other places than the US because the US has imposed these tariffs. So the world is kind of adapting and realigning in real time. I mean, like we're seeing this happen. You know, there was that uh the meeting that or that the summit that took place in China, which included Russia and North Korea, and you know, those that those leaders. People are are looking and saying, all right, well, maybe this country, maybe the United States isn't this where we should center our world.

Jennie: 24:44

Yeah, and and and you were talking about like the ripple effects, and I'm sure you experience the same thing that I do as you go into the next meeting, and all of a sudden some you someone else says something, and you're like, oh my god, that's like another thing I hadn't thought about yet. And so it just it always feels like there's some new nugget of information or area impacted that it it can be so overwhelming to just think of all of the places that need our attention and focus. And yeah, I just feel like in every meeting or conversations I have, all of a sudden it's like, oh, yeah, nope, haven't thought about that yet. Okay.

Anu: 25:22

Yes, I do feel that. And I know that my colleagues do as well. And one of the hardest things in times like this, I think, is to kind of stay steady and stay the course. And I have the great advantage and benefit of working in an organization that's really focused. You know, Ipas is focused on access to abortion, access to contraception, this is what we do. We don't do a hundred things, we do this thing. And so, you know, part of the benefit of that is that I can kind of keep doing my job and you know, keep at it and try not to filter out some of the stuff that's that's happening on the outside. Though obviously it's it's challenging because it all impacts, you know, our our work. But I think that to me that's like the thing that we all need to kind of embrace is almost a single-minded focus in terms of you know, what are you good at? What can you do? And do it, you know, like do it the best you can right now. And that is actually the only thing that we have control over. I think the other feeling that most that a lot of people have is just the sense of chaos and disassembling, uh, and kind of you know uh keeping track of everything, which is impossible. Yeah, it's impossible to keep track of everything.

Jennie: 26:48

So and like forgiving yourself for not doing it all, right? Well, there's no way, right? So, I'm one of those people who feels like, oh god, I need to do more, like I'm not doing enough, and like giving yourself the grace to know like you here are the couple things that you are going to focus on, and trusting others have the other areas, and you can't do it all.

Anu: 27:13

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And you know, I firmly believe that we that the the that reproductive justice and gender justice, I firmly believe that we will actually prevail. I think it will be longer and in the United States, but you know, I just want to rem remind your listeners that in the last 30 years, 60 countries have liberalized their abortion laws. You know, only a handful of countries have gone backwards. Yes, one of them is the United States, but the progress is unmistakable. We are moving towards a world in which this issue, the the issue of access to abortion, is less and less a politically divisive issue. You know, obviously we're not nowhere near that in the US, but I do think we can get there and we just have to kind of continue down this path and continue down this road. And one of the things that we're doing at IPAS is to kind of keep that focus and bring the lessons from outside of the US to the US. You know, American activists, I think, have a we have a lot to learn from the rest of the world. Not only can we learn, but we can also gain inspiration and hope for what is possible. Like I'm thinking about the Green Wave movement, you know, in Latin America. And what was so powerful about that movement is that it was a movement that brought in so many other movements. So, you know, there was it was it was a it was like a collation of multiple movements, you know. And so it was the feminist movement, it was the labor movement, it was the LGBTQI movement, it was just many groups that get got together, and and that's why I think it was so powerful. And that I think is something to really learn from and and draw strength from. And and another feature of that movement that was also really interesting to me is that over many, many years, and and remember Latin America, many of the countries in Latin America emerged from dictatorships, you know, and so they are very nascent democracies in in many ways. And so they, you know, the the fact that they were able to actually bring, you know, to have people who were both in power, who were on their on the side of you know, changing the gay marriage laws, changing the abortion laws, and as well as sort of activists on the street, it's like those two groups working together, I feel like really led to significant change, you know, in the corridors of power and in the streets meant that change was really possible. And and that's something to aspire to.

Jennie: 29:52

Yeah, I feel that so strongly. I've done other interviews where people ask, like, how like do how do you keep doing Like, do you honestly believe we're going to win? And if I did not believe that, I could not do this work because there is so much where you could just see the the ways we have lost and things that aren't going well. That if you didn't think that we would achieve that better world, you couldn't do this work. And so yeah, I come into it with hope. And, you know, it may not happen as fast as I would like, but I absolutely believe we will get to that better place where people have access to the care they need and in in all the ways, right? That's affordable, it's local, it's easy to access. Like I fully believe in that vision. And if I didn't, I would give up.

Anu: 30:47

Yeah, exactly.

Jennie: 30:48

Okay. So I always like to end the podcast not talking about what's bad, but talking about what people can do. So, how can the audience get involved in these fights right now?

Anu: 31:01

So, I mean, I think the the best thing we can do is to really be as informed as possible. So there's great information out there on what's happening on abortion rights. Of course, Ipas' website, www.ipas.org, is a font of information about what's happening around the world and and what we can do to improve the situation. I do think that there are organizations that so NGOs are still active in this sector, and so non-profit organizations are still really moving and still act you know acting despite what's happening at the governmental level. And there are many partner organizations. So, Ipas obviously is an organization that you know one can support, but then then there's IPPF, there's Marie Stopes [International], there's, you know, there are many, and then of course there's Planned Parenthood locally, and then the Reproductive Justice organizations, the abortion funds. The abortion funds are really, really critical. I personally I feel like they are providing much-needed help to individuals in our country, and they have really, they had an initial surge of funding post-jobs, and that's really weighed. And so, I feel like additional support to the abortion funds is really necessary, you know, and many of them are working in places that are restricted, highly legally restricted. So, you know, I think there's a lot of opportunity there as well. There is no shortage of ways of getting involved right now. Just need to kind of think about it for a second, you know, for a minute, and maybe do a little light googling, and you will find you will find ways of getting involved.

Jennie: 32:37

Yeah, you talked about the green wave being something that inspires you. And yeah, the work that abortion funds are doing on the ground, I find so inspirational and always a big fan of supporting them. And I mean, all the places you mentioned. And my always my note I like to give when people talk about donating, particularly to abortion funds, but to anybody, is it's great if you can give once, but if you can break that up and be a monthly donor, and even if it's small amounts, they know they are getting that amount every month, and that helps them plan. So, I'm a big proponent of being a monthly supporter, and I am a monthly supporter of multiple abortion funds.

Anu: 33:22

Yeah, the recurring gifts are really important. Yeah. It also sends a signal of solidarity, you know, that you're in there for the longer term. It's a sense of and a feeling of like community. One of the things that we've been doing at Ipas in many different locations is we've been leading a book club called Read to Resist. Because one of the things that's that has it might be cheesy, but I really do feel like your mind is your own. What you think and what you learn and what you put in it is under your control. And so I have always drawn a lot of inspiration and uh not to mention learning from reading and pleasure, just enjoyment. I read all the time. I read fiction, I read non-fiction. Yeah. So we began this book club, and it right now we meet at a local bookstore here in North Carolina, but we also but it's a you know, the the information about the book club is on our website. And there are books, there are book recommendations as well on our website, you know, and I find that reading about how other movements have handled times of oppression is instructive. And I also find, like, for example, we read Seven Necessary Sins for Women and Girls, Mona Eltahawy, who is an Egyptian feminist, you know, getting her take on as an Arab Muslim woman, what does she think of what she's experiencing and feminism and women's rights right now? It's just a different perspective, a different take on the same issues that we've spent a lot of time thinking about, and bringing together a book club to talk about it is also really helpful because you have this sense of community and discussion, and you know what what did you get out of it? So anyway, I encourage people to kind of create their own communities and figure out ways that they can maintain their level of hopefulness and inspiration. And you know, we're not the only people to have experienced this. Other people have experienced this kind of political climate, and we can learn. We can learn from that and we can grow.

Jennie: 35:39

I love that, and I will be going immediately to go and see what is on the list, to see what I need to be reading. I always love getting new book recommendations to add to my to read list, which is endless, but still love to add more. Anu, thank you so much for being here. It was a pleasure to talk to you. My pleasure. Okay, y'all. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Anu. Don't forget, win free merch, tag us on social media in whatever format you would like, whatever platform you are on. Tell us why you love the podcast, or tell us why you fight for sexual reproductive health and rights. And each time you post and tag us, you get put once in the pot to win a bunch of rePROs merch. So, can't wait to see who wins. Can't wait to see y'all's posts. Like I said, I really love hearing from y'all. I really am excited to hear what you love about the podcast and what makes it special. So thank you so much for everybody who is gonna send in their stuff. I can't wait to see everybody at APHA, and I will see everybody else next week. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media. We're at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter, or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform, or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightBack.com. Thanks all!