Reproductive Justice, Economic Security, and the Fight Ahead

No one’s health experiences exist in a vacuum. Individuals live multifaceted lives and often have multiple, intersecting health concerns. Our health influences our lives, and our lives (including our economic realities) influence our health. Nourbese Flint, President of All* Above All and All* in All Action Fund, sits down to talk with us about how comprehensive reproductive justice, including abortion access, requires economic security.  

To achieve full reproductive justice, people need access to abortion care. To access abortion care, people need economic security. Being unable to access abortion can lead to a host of negative outcomes, including but not limited to economic insecurity. In the U.S., money and access to healthcare go hand-in-hand. 

The Hyde Amendment refuses to cover abortion care for those who receive their insurance from the federal government, forcing specific people to pay out-of-pocket for an abortion. And, more broadly, general healthcare continues to be impacted by the government shutdown, which was negotiated on the back of Affordable Care Act subsidies. Since Trump’s second inauguration, funding freezes have impacted vast swaths of those working in sexual and reproductive health and rights both in the U.S. and abroad. General healthcare is not, in any way, disconnected from abortion access, and both issues closely intertwine. Maternal health, obstetrics, delivery, rural hospitals, and more are also impacted. 

For more information, check out Amicus with Dhalia Lithwick: https://slate.com/podcasts/amicus

Transcript

Jennie: 0:35

Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. [music intro] Hi rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So, y'all, I had a great week last week. I got to go up to New York to the Anthem Awards reception. I'm still flying high on winning the award, and it was so great to go and meet other award winners, people who were doing things that were so different from what we were doing. It was just, it was wonderful and meeting people who were doing things to make change. It was just a fun night of celebration and getting to hear about so many interesting projects. It was just really wonderful. I'm so grateful to the Anthem Awards. And I also was so excited when I came back on Wednesday and was on LinkedIn seeing all of these people I knew who had work that was honored. It was just so wonderful. It made me so happy for the amazing people I know and friends who had worked that had won awards that I didn't know about in advance. So, I just, huge congratulations to all the other award winners. I'm feeling so proud and excited for my friends who had worked that won. And I am so proud and excited for my team, for our award, and just so grateful to have won. It was really wonderful, even if it was a lot, meaning I had two trips to New York in like a couple days' time span. It was just, it has been a good week, which is good because I needed that because it is that time of year where I have like multiple deadlines all at the same time, and I'm feeling very chaotic and overwhelmed, and like there are so many things happening that are all due at the same time with really short turnarounds, and it's just been a lot. And I have felt just stretched very, very thin at the moment. And I am very much looking forward to having the Thanksgiving break to like not think about some of this stuff. And but it also means that the deadlines are all before that, to get things done before the break. So, if it's a little crazy right now, I'm hoping it'll be a good, restful Thanksgiving to just relax and take some time away. I don't have anything really planned. So, I'm just gonna have a really quiet, chill, long weekend. So hopefully they'll give me the opportunity to recharge after, like I said, things being a little chaotic right now. I'm trying to think if I have anything else really exciting to talk about. I don't think so. I think I'm ready to just hop into this week's episode. It was a great conversation. I talked to Nourbese Flint with All* Above All. We were talking about reproductive justice, equity, and the fight ahead and looking at the many different areas where abortion rights are linked to economics, healthcare, women's safety. It was a really wonderful, kind of far-ranging conversation. I hope you all enjoy my conversation with Nourbese. Hi Nourbese. Thank you so much for being here today.

Nourbese: 3:57

I am so delighted to be with you today.

Jennie: 3:59

I'm so excited to talk to you. So, often when we talk about abortion, we focus in on access and talk about why access is important, but it affects so many other things that I'm excited we're gonna dig into that today. But before we do that, would you like to take a second and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Nourbese: 4:17

Yeah, so my name is Nourbese Flint. I use she/her pronouns. I am the president of All* Above All and All* in Action and the All* Action PAC, which is our c3, c4, and PAC, come from Los Angeles, but now reside in DC. And mom of- not a toddler anymore, I guess you're just a little boy, a four-year-old, that keeps my life going.

Jennie: 4:42

It's like one of those all of a sudden you like look and you're like, oh, you're like a little man now. Like, you're not just like a little baby.

Nourbese: 4:50

Yeah, he's just like, oh, mom. And I was like, it's already starting. Oh no. Oh yeah.

Jennie: 5:00

Okay. So, I'm really excited to have this more talking about broader impacts of abortion restrictions because I think they're so important. Like, access is important. It is important we make sure that people have access, but there are broader reasons why it is important. Maybe let's start with um economic security. How does abortion access and restrictions impact economic security?

Nourbese: 5:22

Yeah, so when people are making decisions about their pregnancy and parenting, it usually goes hand in hand with their economic lives, whether they can afford rent, child care, food, healthcare, all the things that we call kitchen table issues, right, are caught up into their pregnancy, pregnancy and parenting and whether, if and when you want to start family. And so for when we think about true autonomy, whether, or true autonomy, I guess the the best way to say it, is you need to we need to think about all these things as one, right? So, for people to have true autonomy or whether and when to grow their families, it goes hand in hand with their ability to think about their livelihoods. And so, the link between economic justice and reproductive justice is one that can't be broken. It's one that we always talk about like hand in hand. It's one of the reasons why a reproductive justice framework exists because we know that there's many intersectional issues that are tied to if, when, and whether you decide to have children.

Jennie: 6:27

It's one of those things that seems so, like, fundamental and obvious. Like, yeah, all these things go into making a decision if you're gonna have, if you're gonna continue the pregnancy, if you want to get pregnant, but so often get lost from the conversation when like you're having the broader conversation around abortion. But if you think about it for a second, you're like, yeah, what goes into making that decision at that time in your life? And your economic situation is a huge part of it. And it also impacts if you can get the abortion.

Nourbese: 7:01

Right. So from both ends of the spectrum,r economic justice is a true piece of it, right? And we I talk about very often the idea that if someone is making a decision about having a child or not having a child because of, like, they can't get time off from work or they can't afford to pay their rent or they don't have enough food, that's actually not true decision making. That's not true autonomy over your life. That is making really hard decisions. If we are really talking about a world that is like full of reproductive justice values, one full of liberation, one for true autonomy, that means that people are deciding if and when they grow family really on that of what's good for them, and not because of all these external factors that are forcing their hand and their decision, right? I think about this quite often as a person who again a mom, and often we're like, where did all my money go? And just, like, the clothes, I felt like my child grew overnight one day, and I was just like, you can't fit your pants anymore. So, we had to go get all these pants, right? So all these things are- I would also say, like, there's just so many like half-eaten things of food in my house because he likes he tried to eat this and then didn't like it anymore, right? And we had to keep experimenting and then healthcare costs, and so all these things are like deeply important to me being able to like be able to provide and like be a good parent, and like all of that is tied to my economic like well-being, right? And if we are really wanting to have a full conversation about people being able to live a joyous life, to live thriving lives, right? It is one that people are able to have the economic security and well-being. And then with when you talk about abortion access, we also know right now that like depending on your zip code, that depends your access, right? And if you are having to travel, if you are having to like take off time from work, if you are having to schedule child care, all those pieces in order to get your abortion, right? That also has an economic impact on your life as well. And a lot of times we like people think that like, oh well, abortion access, it's easy. It's actually really hard.

Jennie: 9:45

And it has been, right? Like, Dobbs did not change that, it made it so much worse.

Nourbese: 9:51

So much. And like if you live somewhere in the southeast or, like, kind of the middle of the country, they're just thousands of miles that you have to travel in order to get access.

Jennie: 10:03

Yeah, I mean, I feel like we've talked about this on the podcast when we've talked about that complicated web that people need to navigate to get access, right? Because it's not just let me go down to the clinic that's close. It's the I might need to take off work. I might I need to figure out how I'm gonna pay for it, my insurance doesn't cover it, I don't have insurance, like all of the things. Then it's oh, there's a waiting period. So now I need to make that trip twice, and that's two days off of work, or two days of child care and travel, and it may not be close, or it's a hotel room, and now it's like I have to fly somewhere to get access. Like all of these things interact together to again, like you said, prevent you from being able to make the decision. Because how can you make a decision if you can't afford to make the decision? Like that that's forcing your hand.

Nourbese: 11:01

And I think that is that is the orange story of all. So the Affordable Care Act passed way back in, I think it was 2011. I think in 2010, 2011, something like that. Yes, 2010, 2011, where we lived in a very different world. Yeah. But the compromise was abortion, right? They kept the Hyde Amendment, and our founders got together and said, like, no more, we are not compromising on women's backs, low-income folks' backs, because what the Hyde amendment does is- it prevents folks who work for the federal government, who both are contractors of the federal government, if you are Medicaid or Medicare, if you're in the Indian Health Service, you have to come out of pocket for abortion access, right? Which means that your ability to get affordable, available, and accessible abortions really is limited when you have to figure out how to come out of pocket, which is something different than any other piece of healthcare that we have, right? And so this is why we like started, and also why that the piece around economic justice and abortion access was baked into the founding of our organization, because we know those things cannot be taken apart, no matter how many times people have tried, whether in Congress or in seats, and that we need to relink those pieces together and make sure when we're talking about pregnancy, when we're talking about abortion access and the continuum of care, that we are also talking about economics.

Jennie: 12:46

Yeah, and that leads perfectly into the next area I was gonna talk about, which is healthcare access. Because, you know, you talked about the abortion part and that, you know, the Hyde Amendment and the way the Affordable Care Act was done further limited people's ability to access abortion as health care, but it also has impacts on broader healthcare access. Do you want to talk about that part a little bit?

Nourbese: 13:09

Yeah, so God, where do we get?

Jennie: 13:12

I could talk about it. I know, right? Let me ask you real small, easy questions.

Nourbese: 13:17

So, I mean, there's a couple of pieces. So, if we take even like what's been happening today with the government shutdown, the government shutdown was on the ACA, but the ACA subsidies, and one of the conversations that were quietly happening behind the scenes was one about abortion access. And it was said that what they were trying to do is try to again try to do a backdoor abortion ban where right now there are segmented pieces in which people pay for their abortion access for states that'll have abortion access and provide it, and they're trying to ban that even, right? And we- which is just such a crazy piece because we know that abortion is healthcare and that pregnancy is health care, and that this conversation of again trying to pull it out into this other world of like, oh, we don't need to think about abortion as a healthcare issue, is like when we think about pregnancy as a healthcare issue, and this is just one of the many ways in which there's an ending to a pregnancy, which they all end somehow. And so it's either abortion, miscarriage or, like, birth. And so, the conversation where our job is to bring the abortion access back into healthcare and also not make it a leverage point of like essentially folks who are trying to dismantle and disassembled like people's bodies to make it seem, like, your uterus can be in a different place than the rest of your body.

Jennie: 14:59

I think the other thing I've been thinking about too is how certain conversations are presented as like disconnected from the abortion conversation, but are totally part of it. So, with states having a number of states having really harsh abortion restrictions, you've seen hospitals having like closing their labor and delivery units. So, like, that is blocking access for not just abortion care, but blocking access for labor and delivery, for maternal health care, and and all of that is happening at the same time. We need to have that conversation around the maternal mortality rate in this country, and it is high, it is particularly high for Black women. Like, we these all need to be in conversation together because it is all part of that same conversation.

Nourbese: 15:49

It is. And I think there's a couple of pieces there too, right? So, one in thinking about Medicaid, we also understand, like with a big ugly bill that got passed, that right after the midterm elections, we're actually gonna see the impact of what that is, right? So they timed it out, and what that means is the rural hospitals um and other like spaces are going to be closed, and that's closed for everybody. And then the second point that you're saying um around the maternal mortality rates, yes, we've seen absolutely in places where there have been abortion bans, there has been an increase in both maternal mortality rates and infant mortality rates. Because we know when people do not get the care that they need, it impacts all aspects of your life. And we, I think it's just again to like under, it can't be understated that abortion care is a part of this healthcare piece, and when people are having to go without, when people are having to travel, when people are not getting the care that they need, so they are carrying pregnancies that are risky and like not unwanted in all these other pieces, that that puts everybody, like people's families at risk. We saw like a horrible example of that in Georgia, where we had this Black woman who had passed away and they had kept her alive as an incubator for baby. Her family had to figure out how to take care of against their will, right? Because of a-

Jennie: 17:26

Yeah, I think that's the like clear part, right? Like they didn't they weren't the ones who made the decision to keep her alive.

Nourbese: 17:35

No, not at all. And this is again, like, is this the most egregious way in which that we saw somebody's autonomy just could violate it? And these are just the stories that we've heard.

Jennie: 17:49

That is the part that always worries me, right? Is like the stories we hear are so heartbreaking and I hope are helping m change people's hearts and minds. But I just think of the people whose stories you don't hear, the people who also aren't getting the information they need, whether that be finding out that there's an abortion fund that could help them pay for an abortion, or finding out that there are ways that they could access pills online, like the people that don't have access to the information that could help them and are truly forced into making a decision that they wouldn't have made otherwise.

Nourbese: 18:26

Right. And so that I think that's again the heart of the work, and that's also the heart of like reproductive justice on the tenant of like being able to decide if you want to have family or not, if you want to have family, and the the right to be able to have and raise your family with dignity in a sustainable environment.

Jennie: 18:47

The other thing I've been thinking is we're talking is like we're we were talking about things that are on like the front end, right? We're talking about the the economics in making the decision whether or not to have the kid, or if they can pay for that abortion, or the impacts on their health. I feel like we're just like going through the Turnaway Study on impacts of having not having the wanted abortion, right? We saw that they the Turnaway Study showed that there was a higher maternal mortality rate associated with not having the wanted abortion. They saw that there was increased economic insecurity for longer. Another big one that is like nearer and dear to my heart as a survivor of intermittent partner violence is the increased risk of staying with the partner when you are in a violent relationship. So, it feels like a good time to maybe turn and talk about women's safety as another part of this abortion conversation.

Nourbese: 19:49

Yeah, you're exactly right. And thank you for sharing the piece around like one, there's like all these factors that go into abortion access. Part of those factors is one, there's the safety of like your actual health and safety. And what I mean by actual health and safety in the sense of we know that like with the Idaho and the EMTALA law, that people are having to get helicoptered out because they showed up to hospitals and they were denied service. And then we also know that there's your actual health and safety when it comes to like the environment that you're in, and what that means for both IPV and also your economic security and the different again, the different ways in which people are trying to figure out how to survive in the world. And so abortion access is again incredibly linked to all these intersectional issues, and again, when we see a space that or a state that decreased access to abortion, all the pieces around whether it's infinite maternal mortality, whether it's morbidity, and morbidity, and what I mean by that is where people did not die but get very, very sick, um lose an organ, all these other pieces are are not being able to have a child again go up. And so, yeah, your safety is again completely linked to abortion access.

Jennie: 21:23

This is the part I really love about reproductive justice is: you brings all of these conversations into one place because so often they are happening in silos, right? Like, maybe somebody will talk about abortion and economic security, or somebody will talk about the other healthcare stuff, or somebody may talk about intimate partner violence, but it's not often you hear the like, let's talk about all of it at the same time because it's all happening. People are having multifaceted lives where these are impacts that they are experiencing all of them at once.

Nourbese: 21:53

Yeah, as a person who grew up in the reproductive justice phase, it was always talked about like that. And it's talked about that because that's the way people live their lives. At some point in people's lives, they like might want to have a child, and some people, at some point in people's lives, they don't. At some point in people's lives, their well, in all people, all times in people's lives, their economic security and well-being is a part of how they decide family. One of the things that I used to work on was environmental issues because we know that impacts your ability of whether you want to have family or not. And your pregnancy. I remember one study that was looking at pollution and how that had an impact on infant mortality and low infant birth weights, right? And so all these things are connected, and I just give a lot of thanks to the black women that started reproductive justice, and they started it after coming from the Fourth World Conference on at Cairo with this idea of we need to figure out how to have a framework that blends the reproductive rights and the human rights framework that folks were learning about and living in the everyday experiences. I remind folks while a lot of folks were fighting for the right not to have children, for many women of color, they were fighting for the right to have children. So, this is why we think about this and this continuum of care, and why we think about a framework that has all of these pieces, because that is absolutely how people live their lives.

Jennie: 23:34

So, one of the things we always are have to deal with is funding and where the funding is coming from and what donors are interested in funding. What are some of the things you're running into right now?

Nourbese: 23:46

Yeah, so unfortunately, I think across the social justice space, and it's been pretty much a freeze in funding. Since the inauguration of Trump, everybody is struggling to like we have the resources uh that we need in order to like fight the good fight. And the time where to fight the good fight, it's absolutely like imperative to the like where our nation is going. I know that we've experienced folks who really were just like, Oh well, Bush is not the hot button issue anymore, so we don't need to think about this, which like breaks my heart because of how we know that this is still an issue that every day people are having to figure out, right? Like, the Dobbs decision didn't go away. Places where they have abortion bans are still there, so like the idea that like because it's not in the news, because it's getting, for lack of a better way, drowned out by a million different things, that like this thing is not still important, again, breaks my heart. But also, it just like really it pushes me to also be like, Can we walk and true government at the same time? Right? Like, we need to be able to tackle the democracy, the fascism, the economic security, and abortion and pregnancy and healthcare all at the same time, because that is what it's called for us to do.

Jennie: 25:20

Yeah. I feel like this is one of those I try to talk about on the podcast, particularly around so much of the increase in funding people saw was like the rage donating, right? Roe felt people were really angry, so they gave money, or they'll see a new headline and it would donate. And now that there are so many attacks on so many different things, I feel like you've definitely seen that come down. And it makes it really hard for organizations to get the money, and the need has not decreased, right? So, and and we never had enough to meet the need of all of the people who needed help. So, it makes it extra heartbreaking to then have to and the need has gone up in the way that now we're talking about having to fly people out of state to get access or put them up in hotel rooms. So the price has gone up, but the money has not, and it makes it really hard.

Nourbese: 26:19

Right. People are having to travel. And then just the not to be on the [inaudible] of, like, running an organization, but like yeah, yeah, that also has like the cost of like running orgs, right? Like all of us have to start thinking about security now because folks are getting attacked. We had a rally, we usually do rallies of in front of the SCOTUS after important decisions, and like our folks got assaulted, right? And, like, these are things that are happening that, like, at the same time we are losing funding, that abortion is in like in dire circumstances, and organizations are having to like lift more as we figure out how to navigate this world that we're in, where like I talked to my our organizational lawyer way more than I feel I had to in the last 10 years, because we have to make sure that like, or not even make sure, we have to guard ourselves in ways that we hadn't before. We saw with that EO the president signed that made it essentially against America, for lack of a better way of saying it, that if you work on race or gender or class issues or the combination of those pieces, that that is anti-America. And that is where we sit in the work, right, of looking at race, class, and gender. Yep.

Jennie: 27:48

And I would have just added to that mix the groups that are service providers who then have also lost government funding or had their funding frozen. So it not to be a downer, y'all. I know often the podcast can be down or since we talk about what is happening, but things are pretty bleak and times are hard for uh a lot of the organizations in the space. It is. But and not equally, not equally.

Nourbese: 28:18

And yeah, I thank you for bringing up the service providers because yeah, our our service providers are also filling it very much for their personal safety, and then the organizations that they work at um are filling it as well. But I would say in all of this, there still is a light at the end of the tunnel for me.

Jennie: 28:36

Yes. I I'm sure you get asked this question a lot because I know I get asked it, but like the how do you keep doing this? And my answer is because I know we're gonna win. Like it maybe not be soon, but like we're gonna win.

Nourbese: 28:50

Right, we're on the right side of history. Yeah, but I think what I also didn't put in my intro is that I am a big sci-fi nerd. Um, and that like like guides my life. I look at a lot of Star Trek, it sets a world of like this is where we're trying to go. But I think about that and how I apply my work today. And although Roe did was the law of the land and did a lot for access, we know it was the floor, not the ceiling. And that there is an opportunity for us in the kind of destruction to have a Phoenix moment of like, let's start building the type of access that we need. Let's start organizing around the ways in which abortion is a healthcare issue, and build in the pieces around race and gender that we hadn't done before into what is new. We are in a space of both incredible destruction, but also an opportunity gives us an opportunity to start building the world that we've never seen. And what gives me a lot of hope is that I have the opportunity to do as much as I can for as long as I can, so I can pass that baton to the next crew of folks that can take it to the world that we have the liberation, right? And that is that's the mission, right? And I feel like I get to wake up. Every day and fight with folks who are down, down as hell to do this type of work. And so, like, yes, times are incredibly hard. But I also note that I come from a legacy of folks that times have been really hard and they persevered. And so I'm taking that type of energy of like, what is new? Like, we have a harder job to do because we're trying to go forward, not backwards. But there's just such an opportunity to like build the thing that we need and to organize people. And people are hungry to be organized, hungry to be organized. And so, like, let's lean into the moment. And then, yeah, that gives me a lot of hope.

Jennie: 31:13

There is so much, like you said, it it times are hard and it there are days, right? You have days where you're like, oh, like I'm ready to quit and like go. I always joke about like I'm gonna open my bakery bookstore and like that, that's it. I'm just like gonna walk away. But it's like a day, and often not a full day. Like, I you have a rough day. But then I look at all of the amazing people that I am lucky enough to work with that are so passionate and bring their full hearts and their selves to this work to build this better world. And then look at the work that is being done on the ground by the reproductive justice advocates, by the abortion funds, by the clinics, everyone who's doing the work to ensure that they are able to help as many people as they can right now while also building for that better world where we have a much better system built to ensure that people can access the care they need easily, affordably. Like in my vision, like access means all the things, right? Like you are just going down the street, like it's easy to get the care, it's embedded, it's free, like all the things. And and we're all in this fight together, and that makes it easier to keep going. And yeah, you may have that day where you're like, I can't do it. But like mostly I can see just the fight we're in, and I am happy to be in that fight with so many wonderful people like you.

Nourbese: 32:41

Thank you. And I would also say the bakery is needed. So if you like want to do that, like we have to also be incredibly creative on how we're organizing. So one of the things that we did was start a book club. It was supposed to be a romance book club, and it was supposed to be like a place for people to gather because community is really, really important.

Jennie: 33:03

Yeah.

Nourbese: 33:03

They decided to go to nonfiction real hard. I was like, oh, we're not reading our soft stuff. Um, but it's a space of community and also a space where we can like like ask folks to help us like volunteer when we need to like turn on and like have to like you know, call people or like send texts and things like that, right? And so like finding community in all the ways that we make and have community is like incredibly important. So, like, I don't want folks to think that like if you're a flowerist that like and your job is like and you do beautiful flowering, that like somehow you are not part of the movement work. No, like there are so many things, like weenie flowers, right? I had a friend told me that like she was getting some stuff printed around a workshop she was doing around like fascism, and the manager saw like what it was while I was printing and gave her 50% off. And was this like a wink and a nod? There are just so many ways in which like everybody can be in this fight.

Jennie: 34:13

You could have a tip bucket that goes to abortion funds, or like you can do so many different things, even just a place that's for literature or things that people when people come in your shop, they can learn more about the things.

Nourbese: 34:25

Yeah, and that's what I'm really encouraging and inviting folks people to do is, like, to get really inventive and creative in ways that we can fight the movement or like to join the movement, excuse me, because there's so many creative ways, and that's what we need.

Jennie: 34:40

And again, things that bring joy. We always love everything that brings joy. Okay, so I always love to end not just talking about what's wrong and all the things that are happening, but with what can the audience do? How can the audience get involved in this moment?

Nourbese: 34:57

Yeah, so I think of it as my three Ts: time, treasure, and talent. And time, I would say, like just what we were talking about, volunteer, join community, have house parties. We have a reproductive justice toolkit on our website that you can download if you're like, I need to figure out how to do a house party, and has everything from like political education and places to read to, like, drink ideas, because like we like to be the joy and the fun into the pieces, but yes, we like one of the biggest things that we can do is build community, and that doesn't mean like build community in DC, if that's not where you're at, that's building it in the streets and neighborhoods of where your community is because you are the best messenger for your friends and your family, and part of the reason why we're in this like crazy alternate world of a nightmare is because we've lost community, and so building community, having and hosting space, meeting your neighbors is incredibly important in the fight, right? And then the second piece is talent. So, like, as people are trying to figure out how to like make things work, funding's getting harder. Like, people's talents are incredibly important. I have a couple of friends who work in kind of the Hollywood industry with producing and like writing scripts, and they have donated their time, and it's been immensely great. I am a journalist major, I am not a person who can write comedy or like other types of scripts, but we need that, and that is like everybody has something like a talent that they can offer to the space that um if you link up with an organization that will be incredibly helpful to help them build and build community to build activists, even if it's just like make stuff look nice to make people feel a little joy. That is all super important, and then of course, I would say the treasures to donate, and there are many organizations across this country, a lot of reproductive justice organizations that are doing, for lack of a way to say it, God's work with like shoestring budgets, and those dollars, particularly unrestricted dollars, which are the ones that folks don't need, can go so far in helping folks being able to continue the work, whether that is providing for abortion access, whether that is providing food at a like after this meeting, whether that is paying for supplies, all those things are just so deeply important. So, there's just a ton of work that folks can be doing. And if you need to know more, you could always say this up the all above all. Because yeah, we we love organizing with folks, but this is again, this is not a spectator sport. We need everybody in the game.

Jennie: 38:03

Nourbese, that was perfect. Thank you so much for being here. I really loved all of your take action, and it was so wonderful to talk to you. Thank you for having me. Okay, y'all. Like I said, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Nourbese. I had a really great time getting to talk to her, and I hope you all have a wonderful Thanksgiving weekend, however you are spending it, and that you get some time with friends or family and a chance to recharge, because now it is all of a sudden like the end of the year, and it's all these things to get done. So, I hope everyone has a wonderful Thanksgiving, and I will see y'all next week. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media. We're at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter, or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all.