Violent Rhetoric Against Women Turns into Policy

Across the spectrum, there are escalating attacks on women’s rights and freedoms, including attacks on the abortion pill, birth control, women’s suffrage, no fault divorce, higher education, and more. Courtney Hagle, Research Director at Media Matters for America, sits down to talk with us about the not new, but increasingly violent, rhetoric against women.

Attacks on abortion, birth control, sex education, and the LGBTQI+ community—both rhetorically and politically—have been increasing drastically. These attacks are often rooted in core values of religious extremism and protecting the nuclear family. The anti-abortion movement and media is seeking to hitch their wagon to the MAHA movement, (Make America Healthy Again) claiming that the abortion pill and the birth control pill have detrimental health and environmental side effects. 

For more information, check out: https://www.cbc.ca/listen/cbc-podcasts/2058-two-blocks-from-the-white-house

Transcript

Jennie 0:34

Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. Hi rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So, y'all, I have really been enjoying this gorgeous weather in DC this past week. I've been able to have my windows open most of the time, and it's nice to just like air out my place and get some fresh air in. The the kitties have really been enjoying having the windows open. Seriously, y'all, Luna, like, lives in the open windows, and she is always so sad when I have to close them, or so she gets mad when it rains, or if it's you know, the turning of seasons and we need to like have it closed for weather-related reasons. She really she would live in my open windows all year if she could. Unless it's windy. She really hates wind. It is pretty funny. She gets like real upset when she gets wind blown on her. Let's see what else is new. Ooh, one of my cousins does stained glass. It's like a newish hobby of hers. And so, or maybe for Christmas like two years ago, I got a a small piece to hang in in my window, and I really love it. So, this year for my birthday, my mom commissioned her to make a a bigger piece for my birthday. It's got flowers in it and a teacup and a stack of books. It's just perfect for me. I love it. And so, I was really worried about hanging it and because I didn't want it to, like, fall and break. And sometimes those sucker things don't stick very well. So, I was looking for some ones that would like really stick and not have to worry about them falling. So, I finally got some sucker things to put on my window, and it is up, and it is making me so happy. I look at it from my desk while I'm working, and it's just delightful to have it finally up and somewhere where I can't see it. So a huge thank you to my cousin who made it and for my mom for having her make it. I really love it. And it just it's uh just this little bright piece of sunshine that I can look at every day when I like look up from my desk, which is lovely. Let's see what else has been going on. There's so much happening in the world that is so much to focus on and so overwhelming this last week has just been utter chaos. And again, how do you stay engaged while everything is on fire? And that's really where I've been feeling this it this last week. It just feels like so much, and it's hard to stay positive and keep up the fight for so many things when you're fighting on so many fronts all at once. So this last week has been a little overwhelming. I think what has helped is I'm so crazy crazy busy at work and I'm overwhelmed at work. So my ability to take on additional external things that is over are overwhelming is pretty limited at the moment. So, that has saved me from getting swept up and just all of the terrible right now. So, I guess overwhelmed at work is a good thing at this moment. I don't know. Both are probably bad, but at least the one is preventing me from focusing on the other. So we'll go with that. Let's see. I think maybe I'll stop there. I am really excited for y'all to hear this week's conversation. We have a really great conversation around these much larger scale attacks on women that we're seeing right now. A lot of the things that feminists have been saying are under threat for so long. And the "quiet part," right? This is the quiet part. They are trying to attack women's voting rights, or they are coming after birth control in its entirety, are finally being said and out loud and written in papers by big think tanks. So it is something that we are going to take a deep dive into this week. And so, I am so excited to have join me, Courtney Hagel with Media Matters. If there is one place to go for what is being said on the right, it this is this is the place to hear all of the things that they are saying. So so wonderful to talk to Courtney about what they are seeing in the media environment right now around attacks on women and family, and it's kind of a wide-ranging conversation, but a really great one. So, I hope you all enjoy my conversation with Courtney. Hi, Courtney. Thank you so much for being here today.

Courtney 5:26

Yeah, thank you so much for having me.

Jennie 5:29

Before we jump into our conversation, would you like to introduce yourself?

Courtney 5:32

Sure. My name is Courtney Hagel. I'm a Research Director at Media Matters, where I have worked in the research department since 2018. My work here has focused on studying the relationship between online and right-wing media and the broader political landscape.

Jennie 5:49

I'm really excited to have you on today because I feel like there has been this shift in the conversation that is happening. It's been slowly happening for several years, and then really fast all of a sudden, around the attacks we are seeing on women and women's rights. It feels like there's this really broad attacks, and there's so many layers of attacks that are happening all at once, it can be a little hard to keep track of. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're seeing right now?

Speaker 6:16

Yeah, so we're seeing a lot of different sorts of attacks on women. It's kind of a multi-pronged approach. You start to see a lot more people, for example, in right-wing media, a lot more comfortable with talking about, you know, who should be allowed to vote, for example. And the idea that women voting in the Civil Rights Act was kind of a big moment where the country started declining is a big narrative. We're starting to see kind of pick-up steam in more extreme cases. You're also seeing attacks on uh birth control in these kind of wellness spaces. You're seeing um more attacks on the abortion pill and abortion medication. You're seeing um more, you know, attacks on no-fault divorce, and the idea that women should be allowed to just leave a marriage they're unhappy in, attacks on education and higher education for women, and the idea that women should be, you know, um more traditional, marry early, have large families, remain in the home. A lot of that has been kind of glamorized across social media and these sort of trad wife conservative spaces with younger women. Uh, you see men in extremist spaces speaking a lot more vidriolically about how you know they speak about women, a lot more violence in their language. And so it really is just across the spectrum we're seeing attacks on women and rights that women have, freedom that women have really escalate in the last couple of years I've seen.

Jennie 7:49

I mean, it's like nothing new, right? It's like stuff that has been lurking around for so long. I feel like I've been reading about this or talking about this for years, almost since I've started doing this work in like feminist blogs and stuff, but it's really like jumped a level recently. It's not just like weird podcasts or like the manosphere in general, it's getting much more mainstream, and things that were whispered about for so long behind closed doors are now being given like full-throated support.

Courtney 8:21

Yeah, absolutely. We talk about this all the time about what feels different because, like you said, it's nothing new. We see a lot of the difference in kind of a Fox News host will say something kind of misogynistic to an anchor, and that kind of feels familiar. But there's definitely a kind of new strain that's been emerging, a very intense violence underlying it, and kind of a resistance to the gains and the progress that women have made in the last 50, 70 years or so.

Jennie 8:52

I feel like a lot of people think, well, it's just the rhetoric and whatever, and it doesn't really matter, but we are seeing it turn into policy. You know, seeing about attacks on women and attacks on women's voting, you have the SAVE Act and women being one of those groups that could be in particularly impacted as married women often change their names and so they don't match their birth certificates.

Courtney 9:13

Absolutely. And I always like to say that I get really concerned, even if it is just rhetoric, because look at how far we've backslid in just five years, in ten years, it really just starts with the public conversation. And once that door is open, once that Overton Window starts shifting, you just don't really know where else it could slide. And again, I've been studying the Trump administration most of my adult life, and the backsliding we've seen in the years is just things I never would have thought we could see. So, even where it does just feel like discourse, for me, that really is just the beginning, and where I start to get concerned is when this kind of attitude and conversation just becomes normalized.

Jennie 9:56

Okay, I'm gonna pick one area to focus a little bit more specifically because again, this stuff is all really broad, and also because this is something that we haven't talked about on the podcast before, and people may not be as familiar with it, and that's the no-fault divorce angle. Why is that so concerning?

Speaker 10:14

Yeah, it's very concerning. You know, you see a lot of right-wing men, Matt Walsh comes to mind, they really rail against the idea that divorce has been rising in decades, and some might view that as positive because it means that people have the support and the freedom to leave a marriage that they are not happy in. These people see it as a decline in American culture, American society, and they view it as women are ruining nuclear marriages and nuclear families. And, you know, the implication that is not so subtle is that women should be putting up with marriages that they're not happy in for the sake of the family, which is, you know, what used to happen quite commonly in the 50s and before no-fault divorce was really common and normalized, is women did put up with really unhappy marriages. And so they view the freedom for a woman to be able to initiate a divorce and walk away as detrimental to American society and the nuclear family, which again, when we say nuclear family, we're talking about a very white, Christian, patriarchal idea of a family. One man, one woman, man is the head of the household, lots of children, woman's at home in the kitchen. That is the idea that they are really trying to enforce uh across the country. And again, these are not widely popular ideas, but they are very comfortable rolling in the minority and you know, finding ways to force that will upon the American people, regardless. And the no-fault divorce angle is very concerning to me because it's specifically about wanting to trap women in not just unhappy but abusive marriages in many cases.

Jennie 11:57

Yeah. The dismissiveness of the abuse that women were facing when they were not able to get a no-fault divorce is just utterly shocking. Intimate partner violence is such a huge thing in this country, actually, everywhere, right? But to be like you have to stay in this marriage is just wild to me.

Speaker 12:15

Completely. I feel the same way. Just that feels like a no-brainer to me that anyone should be, a man or woman should be able to walk away from a divorce. That's just free will. But again, the ideas that you and me see as progress in not just years but decades, they view as a backslide and the source of many of society's problems.

Jennie 12:35

Yeah, and the same thing with talking about focus on the family and nuclear family, that has been around a really long time and what family looks like, and it feels different right now, and that the conversation has just gone, I don't know, like knocked up a level and what the family is like, and it has to be like a one man, one woman, children, married, generally white Christian. And like you said, I don't know that it's anything new, but it's just this rhetoric feels so much more at this moment.

Speaker 13:05

It does. And if I could talk about something from the Heritage Foundation, they have a report called "Saving America by Saving the Family: A Foundation for the Next 250 Years." So this is their kind of vision for America 250. The ideas that they talk in this report are very proliferated throughout right-wing media as well. And some of the things they repeatedly hammer is, you know, the decline of American society and the traditional nuclear family. And so, really full prong, they believe the American decline began with welfare reform and the sexual revolution, which included no-fault divorce, birth control pill, and abortion in the 1960s. It proposes a whole government approach to kind of tackle multiple aspects of culture, including, you know, changing access to higher education in America so that women don't have access to education in the same way, incentivizing heterosexual marriage in larger families and making it kind of, you know, a principle through tax credits and the kind of financial incentives. Religious revival is mentioned in this report, and just kind of again forcing an ideology on people. It just goes very, very into detail about how multiple sexual partners, access to pornography has led to the detriment of American marriages. Of course, supporting anti-LGBTQ policies is a big aspect of this. You know, it's a very intertwined fate between women and LGBTQ people. The authors of this particular report don't support IVF or surrogacy. So again, very traditional with all of that. Of course, don't support abortion or birth control or, you know, any sort of reproductive support in that way. And then again, you know, no fault divorce and making it so women can't divorce. So it's definitely a focus of the conservative movement, when you're looking towards this is their vision for the future. And so, it's not something they like to say out loud as explicitly, but kernels are there if you're looking for it for what their vision is.

Jennie 15:12

Yeah, and their vision for the future is definitely the past.

Courtney 15:16

Yeah, exactly. They will say that very openly. I mean, "Make America Great Again" is the slogan, and you know, it's very clear what America, what version they want.

Jennie 15:27

Yeah, I know one of the other things that's in there is an attack on sex education, and that something that is very near and dear to my heart is somebody who grew up in the Midwest and I went to Catholic school, had sex ed from a nun. So, you know, like not getting good comprehensive sex education. So, it's really important to me that young people are getting good sex education. So, seeing attacks on that is very frustrating.

Courtney 15:53

Right. And that's very proven to have successful results. I mean, that's the frustrating part, all the data, and so it's just, it's not like they're gonna offer any sort of support for a teenager who gets pregnant or anything like that. You see that all the time. They'll force women into these situations, but they're not going to support them in any meaningful way.

Jennie 16:14

Okay, so that leads me to think about the attacks that we are seeing on the access to birth control and abortion, in particular medication abortion at this moment. And I feel like that is all tied up in not just this conservative conversation that is happening, but in the MAHA space. Do you want to talk a little bit about how those kinds of things are coming together?

Speaker 16:35

Yeah, so the anti-abortion movement and media and MAHA movement and media, they are very similarly positioned right now in that they both feel a little slighted by the administration. The anti-abortion movement has been very frustrated in Trump 2.0 for not doing more. Trump has supported IVF and stuff like that. That's been really frustrating to the movement. MAHA, very similarly, they feel that the Trump administration and RFK Jr. have not been prioritizing what they see as important issues. It's very unsurprising that the anti-abortion movement is trying to co-op the politics and the language of the MAHA movement in order to funnel their anti-abortion politics. The MAHA movement has been a very successful coalition for the Trump administration in that it's really brought a lot of people on board who otherwise might not have seen themselves as Trump supporters, you know, suburban moms, a lot of women. The Trump administration has always been very masculine, you know, very misogynistic. MAHA has kind of opened a lane for supporters who might not otherwise be on board. Kind of hitching your wagon, if you will, to MAHA has been, you know, a strategy we're seeing more and more with anti-abortion movements. So most recently, the trend that we wrote about was the anti-abortion movement and conservative media, you know, the Federalist, outlets such as that, have been pushing kind of the Trump administration to restrict the abortion bill and to "Make America Healthy Again," and arguing that the abortion pill is kind of within this MAHA framework to ban because it's " unhealthy" and it "has side effects that are detrimental to women" and it "doesn't protect women." And you see similar narratives proliferating across social media about birth control that are really wrapped in concern and that sort of thing. And we're also seeing similar environmental arguments from the anti-abortion movement. They're saying the abortion pill is "polluting wastewater," and suddenly it's a big concern for them is clean water and that sort of thing. So, I think it's a signal of both desperation from the anti-abortion movement and a signal that the broader conservative coalition really views MAHA as a viable future for the coalition, which is seeing a lot of cracks in a lot of different areas.

Jennie 19:07

Yeah, this is one of those places where you see these spaces really kind of coming together, and there's been this real push of misinformation the last, I don't know, again, time has lost all meaning in the last couple of years, but four or five years of seeing people posting on social and spreading misinformation around birth control, but also falling into that like trad wife trend of women staying at home and taking care of your family. "You should have a lot of kids." Like, you're really seeing these conversations happening together and overlapping all at the same time.

Courtney 19:37

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, we really struggle with fighting that misinformation. We're a misinformation[-fighting] organization. We've been doing this over 20 years, but you know, we are not doctors. It is hard for us to sit up here and be like, you're wrong. And you know, as a woman, I know very well how birth control can have adverse side effects. It's different for every person, so it's hard for me, you know, to feel like I can sit here and tell someone else. But it's very insidious that these attacks on birth control are ones being framed as pretty broad, you know, because they're not very caveated. They're being framed within the framework of you want "natural," you don't want to put these things in your body. It's very similar to the anti-vaccine movement. That's just an overarching distrust of science that has been settled for a very long time, up until this movement came along. So that's kind of the first sign in my mind that this is a broader misinformation movement, is they are not, you know, talking to those varied cases and caveat[ing] and that sort of thing. They're making very blanket and broad statements.

Jennie 20:41

Yeah, it has been really hard to push back on the misinformation. You even have doctors out there getting in putting out good information, um, but with the algorithms, you see so much of this stuff getting suppressed on social. So it just adds this whole other layer to the conversation around what's happening.

Courtney 20:58

As women, we're kind of taught to do our own research medically. That's kind of something that's very valid and understandable. You know, we've heard a lot of doctors will dismiss kind of women's health issues. Women's health is not even very well-researched and was not researched until women became doctors, quite frankly. So, it’s tough because I very well know the feeling of feeling like there’s something going on with me and a doctor is not quite helping me, and you need to do your research. And so, I get that; I completely understand that. And I think that’s what makes MAHA so insidious to me is it preys on a very valid and vulnerable concern that people have, which is concern for their own health, concern for their child’s health, their unborn child’s health. That is all really manipulated and seized upon by these bad faith actors to funnel anti-abortion politics that have been around for much longer than the MAHA movement.

Jennie 21:52

Yeah, I think everything that I'm thinking about right now is this huge attack on medication abortion when it has been so important to continuing the access to abortion since the Dobbs decision, which took away access for huge swaths of the country. So, the anti-abortion movement has really turned against medication abortion because it has been a lifesaver. It has helped people get access to abortion because they can get pills mailed to them. And you can't easily stop access to pills. So, you know, the anti-abortion movement has really taken on medication abortion. And this is their new thing that they need to stop if they are going to have control over women's bodies.

Courtney 22:36

Right. And that's what kind of gives-away-the-games me is the kind of attacks on birth control, attacks on medication, abortion are happening at the same time as these broader attacks on abortion in general, you know. So, you have birth control stops you from getting pregnant, abortion terminates an existing pregnancy. And so, what they want is you to get pregnant and have the baby. They don't want you, if they you would think, put another way, that someone who is opposed to abortion would support birth control because great, now we don't less unborn unwanted children. But no, they want you to be forced to get pregnant and have the baby. And when I see these kind of TikTok narratives going around or, you know, whatever social media platform attacking birth control, it's happening at the same time as these very draconian abortion bans and abortion laws are being passed all across the country where birth control is of even more critical importance now more than ever.

Jennie 23:39

Well, honestly, you can take it a step further, right? They're attacking access to birth control so that you don't have access to that. Then they're attacking abortion, but they're also attacking Medicaid and the social safety net altogether that would help people who get pregnant to care for the kids that they have and they might not have had if they had access to abortion.

Speaker 23:58

Exactly. And then back to your earlier point, they're also attacking sexual education, which might educate you to make the choices at the very beginning of the process. So, like I was saying at the beginning, it's really just an all-out attack multi-pronged from many angles, and it's frightening for me.

Jennie 24:17

It's one of those things I really think about. They thrive on having conversations happening in a silo, right? So, the birth control conversation isn't necessarily happening in the same place as uh the abortion conversation, where it feels like they are different things and they're not tying all of them together. We recently put out our 50-state report card that looks at all kinds of sexual and reproductive health. It takes a long view of what is going on and what what we are seeing with attacks on sex ed and minors' access to birth control, Medicaid, family planning access, and abortion, because they are all part of this same conversation. And we need to make sure that we are talking about them all together.

Speaker 24:56

Yeah, I completely agree. And, you know, different actors have different audiences, different functions in the movement, you know, a very anti-abortion publication such as The Federalist, they'll say the quieter part out loud much more directly than you know, a trad wife influencer who's just talking about the ills of birth control might say it. And so, whatever, you know, the audience is more receptive to hearing, there's an actor who's going to give them that kind of level of messaging that they are more receptive to. And another sign that we are seeing this kind of right-wing co-opting of the MAHA space more and more is the Heritage Foundation just announced a new podcast this week called "Restoring American Wellness" or "RAW." And so, they are creating more media targeting this kind of space. And it reminds me of when you started to see Stephen Miller's wife, Katie Miller, pop up with a podcast directed towards women. The right-wing media infrastructure is very well financed, it's very well targeted. And so you can kind of see where the tea leaves are reading for what they're trying to prioritize based on what new media they're kind of popping up. And so, I was very, it definitely caught my eye this week when I saw the new " Restoring American Wellness." And whenever Heritage is talking about "restoring" American anything, it's not a good sign. Not something I want to be hearing.

Jennie 26:25

Ooh, I hadn't heard that yet. That's not good news. Is there anything else in this space that you think is not getting enough attention or that you're keeping your eye on in this moment?

Speaker 26:35

Again, I just think it's really important to pay attention to how women are being talked about just casually online in these writing spaces, in these, you know, in the government. We're seeing this week, you know, Trump has been on a roll firing a bunch of people in his administration. It sounds like Department of Defense, I'm not gonna say Department of War, Secretary Pete Hegseth has been firing women, Black people, Black women in leadership. It almost seems like the administration is taking a hostile approach to women that have been working for them, which I think is kind of jarring. You know, this isn't to defend Pam Bondi or Kristi Noem, but it is interesting to me how, you know, there's now rumors that other women in the administration are, you know, their employment is being looked at. So it really does seem to be an increasing backlash. The other thing that I've seen some other great journalists like Kat Tenbarge write about is just the violence underpinning a lot of these new narratives coming out in driving extremism spaces. Those reporters are kind of more equipped than I am, but I've been really interested in their work around like the pornification of a lot of misogyny and how much the proliferation of pornography has really accelerated the violence that is underpinning a lot of misogyny that we see. And then again, you still just have your classic, like Fox News style, creepy, like um, you know, the way they talk, you know, Jesse Waters is saying this week that he doesn't want to see a woman in president because women are too emotional, which the way people can say that in a Trump administration with a straight face is crazy to me. But we're seeing that sentiment a lot more on Fox lately that, you know, just women are too emotional. He said women don't have the right business contacts to run the economy. You know, whatever that means, like why not? Just every trope in the book is being thrown at the wall. We also saw, you know, in a more violent way, Nick Fuentes was saying recently that, you know, women need their asses beat more, they just need to be beat up more, just straight up advocating for violence against women. And Nick Fuentes, his audience is growing, it continues to grow, and we've been documenting his misogyny more and more because we think it's important for people to know, you know, it's kind of obvious to us, but he's a very misogynistic. He's also very antisemitic, very racist, very bad person. But he talks a lot about women very violently, and I think that's kind of what we're starting to see more and more is just things that maybe for five or ten years, like you know, a small window there, kind of went out of fashion. Very much comfortable with saying them.

Jennie 29:24

Yeah, I also feel like I just read a piece this week that was talking about how the conversation has moved to like women just need to shut up and be seen and not heard, that you should basically not be in the public space and we don't want to hear what you have to say.

Speaker 29:40

Yeah, no, I completely agree. It just feels very open, very blatant, very comfortable. And, you know, it's it's it's jarring for me because I've been at Media Matters since 2018, and there's definitely a backslide since I've seen been here in a lot of areas, just in general, but definitely the way people are comfortable talking about women. I mean, like I said at the beginning of our conversation, you'll see right-wing media figures all the time now just say, yeah, the issue is women having the right to vote. That's where everything went wrong. And like I said, like I the discourse starting is where I get concerned because the minute people feel comfortable saying it out loud, okay, well, five years down the line, people are comfortable injecting it into the public policy discourse, five more years. And so, I think it really needs the alarm needs to be raised now for people to talk about it. We still do have our right to vote, you know, we still are able to act. And, you know, the small silver lining I have is women fought really hard for these things. And if these men think that women are just gonna take it lying down and give up our rights and say, sure, I don't think that's how this is going to go. But I do think that women and people in general need to be aware that this is happening because these people they know that their ideas are very unpopular, and that's why they like to kind of move in the dark until it's too late and suddenly you're kind of looking around thinking, what happened and how did we get here?

Jennie 31:13

Courtney, this has been a great conversation, and I hate to end it, but I always like to end our conversations with what can our audience do? How can our audience get involved in this moment?

Courtney 31:24

Absolutely. I would say just conversations. I'm always an advocate for just having conversations, not just among women, but with the men in your life, especially people who know young men or young boys, you know, kind of what kind of conversations they're having in their friend groups. A lot of what we hear is things that are discussed in schools, and I hear from my friends that are teachers that this kind of casual misogyny that really proliferates across the internet is really starting to pop up. Talk with the men in your life about what they're watching, things you're hearing, and just making sure that people absolutely have a are able to recognize what's happening before it just goes out of control.

Jennie 32:05

It's always so important to have these conversations. You never know whose mind you could change.

Speaker 32:10

Absolutely. And you just, you know, a lot of people, they just don't know. And it's hard for me because I am so plugged in. My job is to spend all day reading the news. And when I kind of step away and go outside, as people like to say, a lot of people don't. And so, when you talk to people about this stuff, they're shocked. They don't know that this is happening, they don't know that this kind of casual misogyny is everywhere, and so you know, you just have to have those conversations.

Jennie 32:35

Yeah, I have to say you've been doing this for like eight years and having to watch and read all that stuff, like hats off, man. I don't think I could read and watch that stuff so much. Like, wow.

Courtney 32:45

I have good coping skills, I have no social media on my phone. I step away when it's time. So I have my tips and tricks in place for keeping my brain a little healthy, but...

Jennie 32:58

Great. Well, Courtney, thank you so much for being here. I had so much fun talking to you.

Courtney 33:02

Great, thank you so much for having me.

Jennie 33:05

Okay, y'all. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Courtney. I had so much fun talking to her, and it's just oh, it's a lot, y'all. It is a lot. And you know, for so long, this this is nothing new. Like nothing we talked about in particular is new other than it is being said like 10 toes down and like with their full chest now in ways where it was just whispered before. So if you've been paying attention to feminist writing and feminist blog spaces and things like that, like nothing we said is new to you, but it is something that was definitely a behind closed doors whisper conversation in a way that it is not now. Now it is like front and center and being demanded to put into policy. So we need to be paying attention and keeping an eye on it. And with that, I hope you enjoyed our conversation and I will see everybody next week. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media or at @rePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter, or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com.