The DOJ is Targeting Federal Prosecutors Who Enforced the FACE Act

The ability to control your body and when, how, and if you get pregnant and raise children is a fundamental freedom that should be recognized by the law. Skye Perryman, President and CEO of Democracy Forward, sits down to talk with us about the direct connection between the opportunities and support that women and girls have and the strengths of democracies, and how the U.S. (among other countries) is clearly experiencing a democratic backslide.

The FACE (Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances) Act was passed in the early 1990s with bipartisan support. The law was put in place to address a surge in violence and harassment, targeting, and blockading of reproductive health care clinics. The Trump administration has consistently misrepresented and threatened the FACE Act, including going after litigators who prosecuted under FACE Act violations. The Department of Justice (DOJ) has put together a 900-page report intended to discredit prosecutors and civil servants and to create a narrative to justify those facing being fired by the department.

For more information, check out Boom! Lawyered: https://rewirenewsgroup.com/boom-lawyered/ 

Transcript

Jennie 0:03

Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro] Hi rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, if you listened to last week's episode, you know my goal for Memorial Day weekend was to finish this cross-stitch project that I have been working on. I was thinking back and I think I started it in early November, if not late October. So, it has been going on for so long. I think so. I used to cross-stitch when I was younger. So, I started my very first cross-stitch project in like decades, maybe in September. And, like, I finished it really quick and it was fun and relaxing and I loved it. It's a cross-stitch of mangoes, sunflowers, and my mom turned it into a pillow. It's really cute. So, it gave me, like, all of this ambition and hope and finding the joy in like a crafting project. So, I picked out a new one to start working on. That was the one I started in late October, early November. And I was like, I will do this, and like I can't, I my goal will be to do it for my for my mom's Christmas present. So, I opened it and I, like, started working on it. And uh one, it was quite a bit bigger. I mean, not like huge, but like significantly bigger than the one I had done before. And then, the stitches per inch was larger, so, like, the cross stitches were much smaller, so it was so much more work, y'all. I worked on it so much, and still like it took me until Memorial Day weekend, which was, like, rainy and gloomy, so a perfect weekend to like sit inside and watch TV and movies and do some cross stitch. So, I finally finished it. I'm so excited. I'm excited to get it to my mom. It was supposed to be her Mother's Day gift. I just was not able to get it done in time. So, I'm really excited to send it to her. I was able to start a new project, which I'm very excited about. I still find the cross-stitching very relaxing, even if that I felt like I was working on that other project for like 10,000 years. I think it didn't help that it was. So, like I said, I my original goal was, like, Christmas. So it was like snowy with two cardinals in it. So, it was mostly like grades of white. There was like the cardinals, which were color, but like mostly not super colorful and bright. So, it was like kind of monochromatic to work on and like a ton of work. So, I was just so ready to have it done. So, the one I'm working on now is, like, bright and joyful and, like, so many different colors. It is making me much happier. It's also less stitches per inch, so it's not, it's not going to be as heavy of a lift as the one I had just finished. So, I'm very excited to be working on a new project. And then, I think the other thing, like, so I've had like these feels like these two big heavy things like hanging over me. So often I usually have like three or four books that I'm reading at once, one on my e-reader that is my, like, general book that I'm reading. Sometimes I'll have, like, a graphic novel going at the same time, or and then I'll have like a work-related book that I usually read in a physical copy, because I just find that easier to like take notes in and and an underline in versus like on a screen. And then usually have an audiobook going, which is often a nonfiction book, not always, but mostly. And so, when I was young, I got like really interested in like Greek mythology, and I even took a class in college on Greek mythology, which was a lot of fun. And so, I know a lot and and I find like retellings and all of those like really fascinating, but I had never actually read all of the Iliad, and the the version that was translated by Emily Wilson had got so much hype and and stuff. I had been meaning to read it for a very long time, and I just hadn't. And I finally found it on audiobook narrated by Audra McDonald. And so, I was really excited to find that, and I decided that I was going to listen to it instead of reading it, which I think was for sure the right choice. I don't know if I would have been able to one read it as fast as I did, which was not at all fast, but I think it would have really dragged on if I had tried to read it. And Audra McDonald was just such a dynamic narrator. She kept me engaged through the whole thing. It was so good. But it was like 22, 24 hours, and I was reading it in like small chunks when I had time. So it took a really long time. Anyway, I just finished that as well. So, it feels like I got these two like heavy lifts projects that felt like they were while they were fun, they were they just felt like they were taking forever. And so I'm very happy to have both of them done. I enjoyed both of them, but yeah, I'm glad to have that done. And at some point I will read The Odyssey, but I feel like I need Emily Wilson's version of the Odyssey, but I need I need a break. I need a break at the moment. But yeah, so as always, if you have book recommendations, would love to hear them. But especially if you have audiobook recommendations, like I said, I always have an audiobook going, generally nonfiction. So if you have like a nonfiction one that you really loved, I would especially love to hear it, but I'm always open. And I just read the Iliad. So, I have read multiple things on audiobook. I just feel like I tend to use it more for the nonfiction one. So, any recommendations, please send them my way anytime. Okay, with that, let's turn to this week's interview. We have talked about the FACE Act on the podcast before, and we even talked a little bit about how this administration doesn't intend to enforce face act violations. But recently we have seen the Department of Justice target prosecutors who were who were enforcing FACE Act violations, and they also released a huge new report that that talked about that. So I couldn't think of a better person to have come on the podcast than Sky Perryman at Democracy Forward to talk about what is happening and what this new DOJ report is all about. So, with that, let's go to my interview with Skye. Hi, Skye. Thank you for being here today.

Skye 6:53

It's so good to be here.

Jennie 6:54

I am so excited to talk to you, but before we get started, do you want to take a second and introduce yourself?

Skye 7:00

Sure. It's great to be here. My name is Skye Perryman. I'm the President and CEO of the organization known as Democracy Forward. We do so much work to make sure that people and communities across the United States are able to engage, to protect their rights, and to build the society that they want for the future. A lot of our work is legal work where we are in court literally every single day defending people's rights and demanding better for people in their communities. And then, of course, we do a lot of work, community-based work, helping people find their voice, amplify their voice, and push for changes in their communities. My background is as a lawyer, I've had a number of experiences, but I have always done work at the intersection of reproductive rights, reproductive justice, and democracy. When I was a corporate lawyer, many of my pro bono clients, my public interest clients, were clinicians who provided abortion or physicians and other doctors' organizations. I was the general counsel of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. And then at Democracy Ford also have been able to do so much of this work. So it's just really a thrill to get to be with you. I think this is like a really important connection to make because I think a lot of times people think democracy, they think voting rights, and don't necessarily think reproductive rights. Do you may want to touch on a little bit of why that this is such an important conversation to bring reproductive rights into? Sure. Well, I mean, most of us, when we think about democracy, we're really thinking about a society that enables people to be free and to have freedom and to be able to pursue their life. Our Declaration of Independence says to be able to pursue your happiness. And the ability to control your body and to control when and how and whether you get pregnant, when and how and whether you raise children, that's a fundamental freedom that everybody has and that needs to be recognized by the law. And what we know about societies is that there is a direct connection between the rights and the strength of the opportunities that women and girls have to the strength and opportunities available in a democracy. And so, it is not surprising we're sitting here in 2026, where you know, many scholars across the globe are warning that the United States is really in a rapidly accelerating democratic backslide with so many norms and so many constitutional provisions being ignored by those in power. It's no surprise that in 2026, as we're experiencing this, we see this just a few years after the US Supreme Court reversed a major constitutional right for women and for people across the country with respect to the right to privacy that extends to abortion care. So we see these things as interrelated, and the declines in women's rights and opportunities often accompany declines in the democracy as a whole.

Jennie 10:01

Yeah, I think that's so important to like put a firm underline under is that often in authoritarian regimes, reproductive rights and women's rights are kind of that canary in the coal mine.

Skye 10:12

Absolutely, and that's certainly what we've seen here in the United States, and it's also what we've seen abroad.

Jennie 10:18

Okay, so we one of the things we wanted to talk about was some of the things that we have seen happening around the FACE Act under this administration. But I think before we get there, maybe we need to talk a little bit about what the FACE Act is for our audience members who aren't as familiar with that law.

Skye 10:37

Absolutely. It's a really important law. It was passed in the early 1990s with bipartisan support, by the way. And FACE stands for the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act. Freedom of access to clinic entrances. And it was a law that was put in place to address what had been a surge in violence and in harassment and in the targeting and in some cases even blockading reproductive health care clinics. And so, there was a real concern across the country about people not being able to even access their doctor's office, not being able to go get health care without having their life or their health threatened because of violence, and the Freedom to Access Clinics Entrances Act was an act that was, again, passed by a bipartisan majority of Congress seeking to really make sure that people could access reproductive health care without violence.

Jennie 11:36

Yeah, I think that's one of those things that maybe some of the younger audience members may not understand, know the history of what was happening in the '90s. There was so much happening, so many protests and people like chaining themselves to doors and really just physically blocking people's ability to access reproductive health care.

Skye 11:56

Well, there was also not just the physical blockage, but there were actual violence and in some cases murder.

Jennie 12:03

Yeah.

Skye 12:03

In 1993, a doctor, Dr. David Gunn, was murdered outside of a Pensacola, Florida clinic. And we've also seen a number of clinicians and reproductive health care providers targeted with violence in some cases killed as a result of this. And so, the FACE Act was really passed in response to that concerning conduct that you've talked about, as well as, you know, violence that that reached the point of murder of clinicians who were providing reproductive health care.

Jennie 12:35

Yes, thank you for bringing that up. I should not have left that out because that is such a huge important part of the reason it was passed.

Skye 12:41

Yeah. I mean, and I think to your point about what we may or may not remember, I mean, I grew up in Waco, Texas, and in Waco we did have a Planned Parenthood clinic that was available for the community. But I remember driving by that clinic as a kid and seeing, you know, blockade, seeing this type of problematic conduct right outside clinics where people couldn't even get health care without being, you know, physically threatened. So it was definitely a law that was was very much needed.

Jennie 13:12

Yeah, I've told my like origin story on this podcast a couple times, but this is where it intersects with that. I was in like maybe like fourth or fifth grade at the time, and I went to Catholic school, and a friend asked me to go with her to go to Madison to save babies. And so, being then I would have been one of those bodies at the clinic trying to stop people from accessing care. Long story short, my mom talked me out of it by just kind of having me think deeper about the issue and make my own decisions about whether I wanted to go or not, and obviously I didn't go. But yeah, it was just really common isn't the right word, but there were a lot of big protests that were happening.

Skye 13:55

Absolutely.

Jennie 13:56

Okay, so what has happened with the Trump administration around the FACE Act? So there has been so much, and I feel like there are many different parts we could touch on. So maybe, like, let's start with when he first came into office.

Skye 14:10

Yeah, I mean, the President has really tried to misrepresent what the FACE Act is, and has tried to at times even threaten use of the FACE Act in a range of contexts that it doesn't belong. But he's also sought to have the Department of Justice go through and try to find evidence that would warrant firing prosecutors who actually worked on FACE Act cases. Yeah, this has just been one of those again, so much happening. The DOJ and seeing them uh going after prosecutors who were prosecuting people in the under the Biden administration that the Trump administration then pardoned for Face Act violations. Absolutely. And um there were a number of people who disrupted the peaceful transition of presidential power on January 6th, that I believe have also, you know, were also uh pardoned in this way. This is an administration that hasn't shown that it's really serious about keeping people safe. I mean, they've issued so many of these pardons, both with respect to like the attack on our very capital and our very democracy, as well as very clearly unlawful conduct that people have been proven to have been engaged in at clinics, that as you know, was a violation of the FACE Act.

Jennie 15:34

Yeah, this is one of those they really have shown a stated, made their intention clear that they weren't going to prosecute FACE act cases. So, it was jarring as somebody who works in repro then to see that that was the charge that was filed against Don Lemon was being a FACE act violation.

Skye 15:55

Absolutely. So, this is like I said, when the President seeks to misuse the FACE Act, you know, Lemon was at the House of Worship doing his job, seeking to report, and yet they arrested him claiming that he was somehow engaged in blockading that space, which is of course not true. But should we talk about this 900-page report that the Department of Justice put out?

Jennie 16:20

Yes, please.

Skye 16:21

So the other thing, I mean, this I just want to like put this in context because we have there's a lot of issues in this country, and there were a lot of struggles and problems even before this president came in. There's certainly more now. And so, it's always interesting to me to see like what the Trump administration is actually doing with their time and their vast resources. And this was pretty unbelievable. The story almost writes itself. But the Department of Justice put together a 900-page report to try to discredit career prosecutors and civil servants who had spent a lot of time seeking to enforce the nation's civil rights laws and the criminal civil rights laws, including the FACE Act. And so, it sought to put this report out in order to create a narrative to justify its firing of civil servants. These are men and women who work in the federal government, regardless of political party, right, who are just doing their job, who serve before you know all administrations, that the administration has wanted to get rid of. And so, we've seen that sort of the Space Act report be part of that power play in really undermining our civil service. At Democracy Forward, we have an initiative called Red Line for Civil Rights, which actually was able to go through the many pages of the report and to release a comprehensive analysis section by section that focuses on the prosecutions that this that the administration suggests were somehow bogus prosecutions relating to the FACE Act and really debunking so much of what the administration, you know, wants people to believe.

Jennie 17:56

That's just feels wild to go back and see you know what they think are bogus prosecutions.

Skye 18:04

Well, I mean, and one of the things that is really frustrating is they're trying to rewrite reality. And this is something we've seen across the administration where they really try to vilify people that are in these roles, that are doing their job, that are working on matters. They don't get to pick the matters they work on. They're doing their job. And like I said, working both in Republican administrations, Democratic administrations, etc. So, this 900-page report they tried to release, I might have my facts wrong here, but I think they're right. You know, they went and got a story that was gonna break in the morning about this report. I think they wanted it to be some big news cycle of the day because of um the unpopularity and and the criticism the President is getting with respect to the war in Iran and with respect to the way his administration continues to operate. I'm so proud of our team at Democracy Forward and our tremendous independent project, the Red Line for Civil Rights, that went through and looked at all of this and really was able to break it down and show that this attempt to write rewrite reality is really not based on facts or the law. This administration has really had a focus on dismantling civil rights kind of in general and and particularly at the DOJ.

Jennie 19:18

What are some of the implications for some of these things that you were seeing happening within the DOJ?

Skye 19:23

I mean, look, this is a really historically low point for the Department of Justice. It is a politicized Department of Justice. I mean, you know, plain and simple. And we're seeing the talent of the lawyers being used at the Department of Justice really being weaponized against people. And so that's one piece of this that we have obviously look at this in the context of. But we're also seeing the civil rights division, right? The division of the Department of Justice that was there to protect people's civil rights. As you're saying, we're seeing that division more and more appear to be reversing people's rights or taking positions in litigation that weaken our civil rights protections. And so that is gonna have to be addressed, right? I mean, this is the type of accountability that we're gonna need in the future. And I really appreciate the ability to come on this show to talk about those things because it does seem like from day to day, from week to week, sometimes it feels like no one's being held accountable.

Jennie 20:22

And I think this is one of those things that people often think, well, you know, then the next administration can come in and just fix this, but so much of this damage is institutional damage and and just thought leadership and years of experience that are being lost, or like you can't just flip a switch and make this all better.

Skye 20:45

That's right. And I don't even think the administration sort of wants to flip a switch. I think it's actually intentionally engaging in this type of conduct. So that's one reason at Democracy Forward we launched Redlines for Civil Rights, which is an independent website that is tracking what the Department of Justice is doing in these cases and how people can engage to do something about it. So, I'd really encourage everyone that is tuning in to definitely check out Red Line for Civil Rights, including this amazing publication that we're talking about today.

Jennie 21:15

So what are you keeping your eye on right now? Again, there is so much happening, but what what are you kind of keeping your eye on, particularly around FACE, but if there's anything else that you're just like really focused on?

Skye 21:26

I mean, you know, we're always focused on making sure the civil rights laws are enforced, even if the Department of Justice isn't going to enforce them. And so, you will see us in a lot of cases across the country, whether they involve reproductive rights or other rights as well, civil rights seeking to defend the civil rights infrastructure. In the reproductive health care space, we've been active in the miphopristone litigation. For many years, we have represented the generic manufacturer of mifepristone against anti science efforts to try to undermine the ability of the Food and Drug Administration to regulate the medication. And so that's been a that's been a big focus. And I know as we're recording this, we're waiting for yet another move from the Supreme Court in those cases. But that is another piece that, you know, we view that as interconnected. I mean, extremists seeking to undermine the ability of people to access health care, whether they are blockading a clinic, which is unlawful, or whether they are trying to erase the scientific inquiry that FDA does and has done in the past in order to make sure that people can access medication abortion. Those are all things that are interrelated.

Jennie 22:35

Absolutely. And right, like if you can't harass pills, keep people, you know, if you can order them by mail means you don't have to go into a clinic. You can't harass people if they aren't coming into that clinic space in the same way that you see, where people are, you know, arguing that they're "sidewalk counselors" or whatever, heavy air quotes for people who can't see that it's another way to try and block people from accessing care and assert their power in this situation because pills really make it so much easier for people to access care, especially with in this post-Roe world.

Skye 23:15

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jennie 23:17

Okay. So, like you said, we're waiting on the Supreme Court as we're recording, we're recording this on Tuesday, May 12th. So we're waiting for the decision on Thursday, or not a decision, we're waiting for them to take action on the the temporary stay. So we won't focus on that too much because uh so much could change between now and when people hear this. But what are some things that our audience can do right now to be involved in this fight?

Skye 23:45

Well, one thing we want everyone to do is to not give up. So, when you start feeling alone, when you start feeling there's no hope because everything, these rights seem to be being run over by the minute, just know that you aren't alone, that there are people that are gonna fight every single day, communities that are gonna come together in new ways. And the number one tool that autocratic actors use to try to take away your power and to try to destroy democracy is to seed a belief within us that there is nothing that we can do. And when we say no to that and say that we are gonna show up in our communities and that we are going to do what we can to support our neighbors and do what we can to support our rights, that's the first step, and it's a huge step. So, number one is just like don't give in to that voice that says that there's no hope, there's nothing that you can do. And if you need some reminders on things you can do, you can go to the Democracy Forward website, democracyforward.org, and see so many places where you can plug in. The second thing that people can do is we can be really mindful about the information that we are getting, right? This is a movement, this far right anti-science, anti-reproductive healthcare movement. It is a movement that wheels and deals in misinformation and disinformation. And so, we need to be extra vigilant about the information that we are getting, the information that we are sending out into the world. And so that is definitely something that we want folks to do to be involved in this fight. In a lot of communities, there are wonderful grassroots organizations such as abortion funds that help people get the care they need. And I would encourage everyone to do some research and support either the abortion funds or grassroots organizations or other community health clinics that are trying to provide that evidence-based care for people. That's an amazing thing that you can do to stay engaged. The fourth thing, which you know people don't want to hear, but it's true, and it's true every single day, is you've got to vote. You've got to vote, you've got to make a plan to vote, you've got to get your community on board to vote. That is not just a voting rights or a democracy issue. It is an issue that affects everyone. It is a kitchen table issue, and it is right at the heart, too, of of course, reproductive freedom, reproductive justice, and reproductive rights. So voting is key, and I'm gonna keep saying that over and over again. And then I'll also let you know that later in August, I have a book coming out called Ordinary People, Extraordinary Time. It is all about how to reclaim your power, fight for freedom, and reimagine democracy. It has seven steps and lots of different things that people can do in their own lives. All of the proceeds are gonna go to benefit the work that we do at Democracy Forward, representing our clients free of charge so that everyone can access the courts. And there will be a lot of other actions available there as we get into that fall time, that critical time that we're gonna have in the fall. So I can come back and talk about that at a later time, but watch out for that book too, because they'll have a lot of resources there. In the meantime, democracyforward.org, click that get involved tab and you can find lots of ways of engaging.

Jennie 26:49

Oh, we'll definitely have to make sure to include a Bookshop link to your book and yes, come back and talk about it when it comes out. I always I love your suggestions. I always talk about the importance of being a resource for your community. So, that doesn't mean you need to know all of the things, but knowing places where you can point people to get the correct information from a trusted source is so important in this moment that it really makes a difference.

Skye 27:17

Right. Well, I could not agree more, and that's and I really wanted to also thank you for having these conversations that are just so important for all of us to be able to stay grounded and engaged in reality, which is hard to do in these days.

Jennie 27:30

Well, Skye, thank you so much for being here.

Skye 27:33

It was a real pleasure to talk to you. Thanks so much.

Jennie 27:36

Okay, y'all. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Skye. I had a great time talking to her about what is happening with the FACE Act, but also what this new huge DOJ report was all about and what it means going forward. So, with that, I will see everybody next week. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media or at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter, or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform, or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all!