5 Years On: The Taliban’s Gender Apartheid in Afghanistan

Trigger warning: This episode references child marriage, maternal death, and suicide.

August 15th marks the fifth anniversary of the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan. Gender-based discrimination is a tenet of the Taliban’s policies, which is being enforced and institutionalized across the country. We hear from Metra Mehran, a self-described person exiled from Afghanistan during the Taliban takeover in 2021, and who now focuses on advocacy work related to gender apartheid with the End Gender Apartheid Campaign, as well as advocacy with Congress to hold the Taliban accountable through Amnesty International.

In Afghanistan, there is a systematic level of discrimination that impacts every single facet of life for women and girls. Women cannot work, go to school beyond primary school, or have freedom of movement. The enforcement and institutionalization of this gender discrimination funnels into the crime of the grand-scale gender apartheid being perpetrated in Afghanistan. Child marriage has peaked in the past five years, interrupting a girl’s inability to finish their education. Women and girls face higher rates of domestic violence, reproductive violence, and suicide. And while underground schooling does exist, girls seek education at extreme risk to themselves and their families.

Advocates are pushing to use the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) to take Afghanistan to the International Court of Justice and encouraging the continued proceedings against Taliban leaders before the International Criminal Court. Conversations to include gender apartheid in treaty negotiations are also a testament to the strength and power of the women of Afghanistan.

For more information check out Babes in Bookland: https://womensmemoirpodcast.com/

Transcript

Jennie 1:59

Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. Hi, rePROs. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. I, sorry, I'm laughing. My cat, Cinder, is sitting on the back of my chair giving me dirty looks, and I can see her because there's video on the platform when I record. So, she's sitting on the back of my chair glaring at me. She's a little upset because she was laying underneath my microphone while I was trying to record and purring, and the microphone was picking it up because sometimes she can be a very loud purrer. And I thought that would be distracting for y'all to hear this odd rumble in the background while I was talking. So, she got relocated and she's now glaring at me because she is unhappy about said relocation, and it is making me giggle every time I see her on screen. Let's see, what else new and exciting? Oh, well, last weekend was lovely. I got to go to happy hour with a work friend who I haven't seen in a long time. So it was so wonderful to get to catch up with her. And then Friday I was able to go out to lunch with a friend, and we walked around the wharf and it was just delightful. Went and picked up some goodies from some various shops on the wharf. It was just like a really nice day to catch up with someone I hadn't seen in a little while. And yeah, so much fun. And I just the rest of the weekend was pretty chill. I worked on my cross stitch project, had a very quiet, mostly rest of my weekend. I feel like I've just been stretched a bit thin with judging for the signal awards, but also what you haven't known about yet is rePROs is submitting or submitted a panel proposal to record a live podcast episode at South by Southwest. It is now open for voting. And so we'll have all the links at our show notes. So it would be amazing if y'all could vote for our session. We are proposing a panel to talk about how all of this fringe violent rhetoric has become mainstream and is now becoming policy. And we're looking at the intersection of rhetoric around reproductive rights, LGBTQ rights, and democracy. And we have an outstanding stellar panel proposed. It will be Preston Mitchum, who you all may recognize from the podcast. He's a senior fellow with rePROs Fight Back. He's also at Common Cause right now. He was on Martha's Vineyard, Summer House. I mean, sorry, flip that around. He was on Summer's House, Martha's Vineyard. Very excited to have him as a senior fellow and also a part of this panel. Also would be part of the panel is Jessica Mason Pieklo, who you recognize from her many appearances on rePROs Fight Back, but also from her former podcast, Boom Lawyer, and her time at Rewire News Group. So excited to also have Jess as possibly part of the panel. And then the last panelist who you would recognize from last week's episode of the podcast is Christina Uribe with the Collaborative for Gender and Reproductive Equity. So excited. I think this will be such a stellar panel. Like I said, we're having a very similar conversation to the one Christina and I had last week. I think this panel brings a lot to the conversation and it will be a great opportunity. So if you get a chance, hop at the link in our show notes and vote for us before August 23rd. I'm sure I will mention that at least once more before the deadline. I think with that, we'll just like turn to this week's episode, and I'm going to give a trigger warning up top. It is a kind of heavy episode. Actually, it's a very heavy episode. This week marks five years since the US left Afghanistan and the Taliban took over. And we are going to take the time in this episode to talk about the status of women in Afghanistan right now. It is really, really bleak, y'all. And so that means this is a really heavy conversation with a number of things that could trigger you. So, you know, we're going to talk about child marriage. We are going to talk about maternal mortality. We're going to talk about girls being blocked from getting a secondary school education. There is mention of suicide. Nothing is like overly detailed or anything, but it is just a really heavy conversation. So, if you are not in the headspace for that today, please come back another time because this is a really important conversation. It really feels like Afghanistan has fallen from the headlines, particularly the women in Afghanistan. And it's really important that we don't look away and that we raise up what is happening. And yeah, so you know it would be great if you can come back. But if you can never come back, I totally understand because this is a really heavy conversation. And come see us next week. We'll have an Ask Me Anything episode, which will mostly be lots of fun questions. And I will see everybody then. But joining me today, I am very excited to have Metra Mehran with Amnesty International and working with end gender apartheid on the podcast to talk about what is happening in Afghanistan and why it is important that we talk about it being a gender apartheid. And with that, let's go to my conversation with Metra. Hi, Metra. Thank you so much for being here today.

Metra 7:20

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Jennie.

Jennie 7:22

I'm excited doesn't feel the like the right word, but I am looking forward to this conversation. I feel like Afghanistan has fallen a bit off of everybody's radar at the moment, and I think it is really important that we talk about what's happening. But before we do that, we should do a quick introduction. Would you like to take a second and introduce yourself?

Metra 7:44

Sure. This is Metra Mehran. And I describe myself as someone who lived in exile. I had to leave Afghanistan in August 2021 after the US withdrawal in Taliban take over of the country. And now I focus primarily on advocacy and accountability work focused on codification and recognition of gender apartheid as a as a crime and also as a terminology that can recognize and explain what's what's happening in Afghanistan.

Jennie 8:19

Great. And as I said, I feel like Afghanistan has fallen a bit off of the radar. So I think maybe the important place to start before we talk specifically about women is just it's this week is going to mark five years since the Taliban takeover. How do things look overall right now?

Metra 8:39

Worse than anything that can be explained. And that's why when at the Engine the Raportoid campaign we advocate for the for Afghanistan, what we say is what's happening in Afghanistan should shake the conscience of humanity. And on August 15, which marks the fifth anniversary of the Taliban takeover, I want your listeners to just be conscious of what they do that day. Regardless of if they are a woman or if they are a man, from the first thing they do in the morning, if they wake up, you know, choosing what they want to wear, maybe not even thinking, but walking to the place they want to go, and if they go to work or if they go to school, if they, you know, if someone hears them, if they see someone. Those everyday things, that we are entitled as human beings, are banned and controlled for women in Afghanistan. Women cannot go to work, they cannot go to school, they don't have the freedom of movement to go for groceries, or if they want to go to the hospital, they don't, even their voices and faces are criminalized today. So, that's what's happening in Afghanistan, and that's what makes that context very distinct from any other place in the world. And it has been five years that no one, no girl in Afghanistan have been to school beyond primary education. So, you don't see any school girls or women's educational places open in Afghanistan. It's a policy of the government to ban and and close school and universities for girls and women.

Jennie 10:28

Yeah, I thought I had a really good handle on what was happening, but in preparation for our conversation today, I was looking at some of the things that have come out about you know five years later, and it truly is shocking. The things that are happening right now. You know, I think one of the things we want to talk about was like what is so unique about the situation in Afghanistan right now, or what is unique about it?

Metra 10:58

As women, regardless of where we live, we do experience some level of discrimination. Gender-based discrimination is not something very unique. It's a common experience for women everywhere in the world. But what makes it very different and unique in Afghanistan is discrimination is legal in policy of the Taliban regime and it's enforced by the by the institutions um unanimously across the country. So today, as we are speaking, there is no place in the world where ban on education is legal. But you in Afghanistan have a law, they call it decrees formalized and published in our national gazette that says that women cannot go to work, that woman cannot go to school, that woman cannot move freely or walk or take a taxi without a male chaperone. And I think that is what makes it very different, that it's a policy of a government to dehumanize women and subjugate them to a second-class citizen. And that is why at the Engender reported campaign, which hopefully we will dig a deep in our conversation today, say what's happening in Afghanistan is not any cultural or religious or social practice, but it's a law of the land, and that should be criminalized and and should be recognized as something that shouldn't be acceptable regardless of the context. That's what makes it unique. So you don't see, I want to repeat it, you don't see anywhere else in the world a law to be like a girl cannot go to school. Even if discrimination at some level exists, I'm not in denial of that. I maybe um or you experience as a woman some level of discrimination sitting here in the United States, but there is no law that be enforced by a by a government. I don't want to call the Taliban a government, but by the regime that says girls cannot go to school.

Jennie 13:09

I think it's important that we dig into something that maybe our audience isn't super familiar with, and that's the term gender apartheid. Can you talk about what it is and why is it important to talk to use that language?

Metra 13:24

First, why we call the situation in Afghanistan, by we I mean women of Afghanistan, of course has been it's not the first time, but it's the second time women of Afghanistan are going through this level of oppression and discrimination between 1996 to 2001 when Taliban were in control. They have applied and enforced this level of discrimination, but then they were toppled and now they take over the government again. So, there are certain elements. In the first one, I explained that what's happening in Afghanistan is gender-based discrimination and oppression of women are part of the governing system of the Taliban. It's based on there are policies and laws that introduce the discrimination, and then there are institutions in place that enforce those discriminations. So that's why what we say is what's happening in Afghanistan is systematic and institutionalized. And the other thing is it's not just uh control or over one or two rights of women. It's not that a woman can go to school but cannot go to work. Every single right that we know of are entitled to, including right to education, freedom of movement, employment, freedom of speech, are banned and controlled by the Taliban. There are over 230 decrees that we document through Afghanistan Justice Archive that introduce controlling mechanisms and bans for women. So what's happening is there is a totalizing oppression happening in the country. So, there is not one or or two. And the third thing that we can explain it is how the enforcement of it. So, there is something called Minister of Voice and Virtue, where they are like police the behavior of women outside the can the house. So if you have, for example, not dressed properly, a morality police of the Taliban can arbitrarily arrest and imprison you. But then they are also introducing controlling mechanisms for women inside the house. And they are doing it so if I am not dressed properly, of course, the morality police of the Taliban will arbitrarily arrest me and you know take me to the prison. But also, men in my family, if it's the brother or the husband or the father, are subject to punishment. So, they are automatically authorizing men to be the enforcer of these policies inside the house, which through that process, we are seeing how they are socially engineering the society in a way necessary for the sustainability of their regime as an ideological thing. And the other element that we study in the campaign is very key is the intention. So it's not an you know an individual act or a group act or someone's religious or I don't know, social preference. But it's the policy of the regime or the system that it feels it's necessary for its sustainability. So they are also pursuing an intention behind this. That's why, when you see the context, when we see these elements, we say that's what's happening in Afghanistan is an institutionalized and systematic and totalizing gender-based oppression, necessary for the sustainability of the regime. And that's what we are asking to be to be criminalized. That's what gender apartheid is. Because for example, there is gender persecution. But what we or women of Afghanistan see that gap in international law or in criminal law is it doesn't encompass the totality of the crime Taliban are perpetrating against women and girls. So, that's why we say gender apartheid as a framework can encompass the totality of oppression Taliban are perpetrating systematically against women and girls in Afghanistan in order for their regime to sustain. And that's what gender apartheid is for, can be defined. And that's how women of Afghanistan are experiencing it, living under that system.

Jennie 17:50

Yeah, it seems really important to be intentional about the language and use that language for people to understand the scale of what is happening. I think some people may have an understanding that things are bad for women in Afghanistan, but they don't grasp what that really means. And I think using "gender apartheid" really drives home just how institutionalized it is and how systemic it is, and just that it is a much grander scale than people are imagining.

Metra 18:26

The other thing is people is it's based on a policy in law. There is a law saying that a woman cannot go to work. And I think they they have reduced women to child bearers and and cooks at the in the house to serve the men in the state in the system, nothing more. So you you know that level of dehumanization you see is very, very strong.

Jennie 18:54

So, we wanted to talk about a couple specific areas where women are impacted, and I think it's also important to note that like they're all really intersecting and and work together. So the conversation may not be like, let's talk about this one and that one and then this one, because it's all this kind of same conversation, right? So, we wanted to touch on education, child marriage, and health. And so, I kind of think it's important to just kind of maybe just dive in because they are all related, and you can't talk about education and not also bring in the child marriage parts, and you can't talk about child marriage without talking about the implications on health. So, maybe we'll just start with what are some of the impacts? I think people may not understand kind of the ripple impacts that are experienced by women and girls by losing education and work and experiencing child marriage. So what are some of the impacts, short-term and longer term?

Metra 19:53

What hurts me the most is the trajectory this level of discrimination um has said the life of women and girls in Afghanistan is not reversible. And that's why when I see, you know, every day passes, Taliban gets more institutionalized, but women gets more, you know. So we see um I want to talk about the oppression of women, but I'm sure I want to make sure that we also cover the resistance we are seeing from women of Afghanistan and their agency. They're Taliban are trying to oppress them, but they are not just oppressed entity. They're there there is so much resilience and and resistance they are doing at a very high cost. But what we are seeing is so, first, a girl who hasn't been to school in the past five years, imagine she was in 10th grade or ninth grade or 12th grade and never graduated, they are a victim of child marriage. And I'm not sure even if we reopen schools tomorrow, if their families are, you know, have the capacity to send them back to schools if they are already pregnant, if they are already married. So the child marriage has peaked, but we also know there is no justice system inside Afghanistan for women. So there is a coup, penal coup of the Taliban that was released this January or got published at least on the National Gazette this January. I'm sure they were implementing it before. Article 34 says if built for child, actually in the woman, so describe the man as the "owner of the woman," and also say if the bone is not broken and the bruise is not blue and black or blue and yellow, it's not a crime. And the husband has the right to punish her that much. So, imagine if a girl was 15 and she's married into that family, there is no way for her to return, and there is no justice system she can defer to to seek justice, even if she is victim of domestic violence as a child, or if she is forced to get married, she doesn't have a place to go. So we see that one. The second one is high, a very high level of suicides among among women. At least in the past three, maybe three and a half weeks, I knew two young women who committed suicide. And what's the hurting part is I was talking to um one of their family members, and um I think it was it was her father, if I remember. And he was like, oh, we are in the in the hospital. I was like, what happened? She said, Taliban, if you commit suicide, Taliban doesn't allow you to do the proper religious burial. So they take the dead woman to the hospital. So, the doctors give them a reason that she was sick or something happened to her so they can do the burial. So, how much that level of control is there that may we don't get enough data on the actual number? But also, UN women had put a um a report on the mental uh state of young women inside of Afghanistan, and it showed that more than 90% of the women they interviewed expressed suicidal thoughts. And that's that's the level of sadness we see women are experiencing because of not going to school. It's really, really bad. But of course, there are underground schools they are trying to go, there are some online classes they are trying to attend, but they have to do it in hidden. They have to do it you know in secret and at a very high cost of putting themselves, their families, and people who provide some of those underground education at risk.

Jennie 23:46

I'm really excited to talk about ways that we're seeing women fighting back, but maybe real quick, because it is also another big area. Focus is around health and reproductive violence that we're seeing, and even just risks around maternal health. And then we'll turn to I don't know if happier, but like more empowering things.

Metra 24:08

So what's happening is yes, there is no, at least there is no law saying that woman cannot seek medical support, but they don't have the freedom of movement. And if they of course for them, you know, abortion is out of even question. But if they need for health reasons abortion, or if they or for for delivery, if they need to go to a doctor, if they are not accompanied by a man, then then they cannot seek medical support.

Jennie 24:40

Yeah.

Metra 24:41

And what happens is also now that women cannot... so, Afghanistan was, of course, struggling and at different levels, and most of the maternal health issues were reliant on the number of midwifes you know serving. We had areas in Afghanistan that still didn't and doesn't have a single, you know, gynecologist, for example. But midwifes were first-line life-saving addresses. But now all schools and universities, including midwifery institutions, are banned for women. So one of the health organizations, I forgot the name now, pulled out that by 2023 there will be a huge shortage of midwives in Afghanistan because they cannot, they cannot go and study midwifery anymore. Nursing, midwifery, medical schools, all of them are banned for women in Afghanistan as part of ban on education. But the other thing is they also don't allow women to seek medical services from a male doctor. So, you are not allowing women to become doctors, and then they are not allowing women to be treated by a male doctor. So even if so, with all other existing bans and controlling mechanisms in place, there is de facto access to health is de facto denial of access to health, to be frank. But the other thing is so one of the first decrees they issued banned family planning, birth controls in all hospitals. So as a woman, you cannot go to a doctor and ask for birth control medication, basically. So the the bad thing with Taliban sometimes is some of the things that they believe in core is they don't want it. They even don't talk about it, to not validate it. And abortion is one of those things that they don't even recognize to talk about it. But you also see a lot of policies in place that um avoid women to have access to any family planning, but also which has raised maternal mortality rate very, very high. What I can do is I think I can share some of those links with you so you can add it to the podcast if helpful.

Jennie 27:11

Perfect. Okay, let's turn to a little bit of the brighter spot of what the women in Afghanistan are doing to fight back.

Metra 27:20

Taliban's operations are totalizing and worse and bad, but I think agency and resilience and perseverance of women of Afghanistan are bigger than that. Right after the collapse, women start protesting on the streets, you know, facing gunshots, tear gases, lashes, and and many of them got imprisoned and tortured. And there are thousands of women still in Taliban's prisons for for resisting. But I am amazed how they are reorganizing, they are adapting, they are using technology to connect and and continue the fight virtually or behind closed doors. But one of the strong things that I think me as part of the movement of women of Afghanistan am proud of is how much they so we saw that there is no justice system inside Afghanistan that we can utilize. That's why we started using accountability, international accountability mechanisms. And that's why we have mobilized to use laws in to push International Court of Justice, ICC, and they did send arrest warrants against two of the Taliban members, including Hibatullah, the leader and their justice chief, Chief Justice, and we are pushing and advocating to take case of Afghanistan using gender persecution in CDAW, ICC used gender persecution, but using CDAW to push some of the countries to take the case of Afghanistan to the International Criminal Court. And we are using or utilizing every available law to seek justice. And one of the big campaigns that movement have been pushing for is codification of gender apartheid. And I think it's both legal power, but it also has a very strong mobilizing power to inform the world against gender apartheid and and create global solidarity needed for this cause, which we explained. So now in gender apartheid campaign, which is we treat it as a public property that campaign is everyone's, but also women of Afghanistan are standing with Iranian women and the other international allies um to push for codification. And now we have April 38 was the first official deadline for states to submit their proposals to the Secretary General for the Crimes Against Humanity Treaty. Unfortunately, seven countries proposed codification of gender apartheid as a provisions to be included in the Crimes Against Humanity Treaty. And by that count, we had seven other countries before. We have now 14 countries who officially in written has asked uh UN to include gender apartheid in the Crimes Against Humanity Treaty negotiations. So, it's officially on the table now, and I think that that is the resilience and resistance of women of Afghanistan that you know never give up. They they travel to different countries, they talk to politicians, and when if they are inside Afghanistan, they they document, they tell their stories, they ensure the civic space inside is alive, even if it's underground. And a lot of amazing documentation we do. All of them are my colleagues who are, I may never be able to call their name, but they are amazing, powerful women who are documenting for us, uh reporting, traveling, supporting uh each other, and and I think that that's that's what they they are doing. And I think that that is the hoop going forward, that resistance continues and we keep the civic space alive.

Jennie 31:33

That is such amazing and important work they are doing at such great risk.

Metra 31:38

Huge risk. Because it's then they can take you to the prison and you no one will ever learn what happened to you. That is possible, and but they're still still taking that risk. Yeah.

Jennie 31:52

I always like to end the podcast talking about what can our audience do? So what can people listening to this podcast, what can what can they do at this moment to help?

Metra 32:04

So this is what we say is no one should take anything for granted. I loved it to see how things can change overnight. Yes, we are seeing gender apartheid in Afghanistan, but as a global community, we are also facing regression against gender justice, against women's rights globally. And I think, and we are seeing rise of authoritarianism, that they are all attacking gender justice anywhere in the world, even if we you know we see Afghanistan as a as its epicenter. And when discrimination reached to that level of dehumanization, if it's you know gender apartheid in Afghanistan, if it was you know apartheid in South Africa, or if it was genocide, then um, or if it was Holocaust then and genocide uh we see today, we then saw in Germany and we are seeing today in in Palestine. I think those are not then limited to a context or a specific context. When discrimination or atrocities reach to that level and it shakes the conscience of humanity, then as a global community, we have stood against it. We have law to say genocide is bad, apartheid is bad, gender persecution is bad, racial persecution is bad, and we need to stand together to say gender apartheid is bad. And I think because every state in the UN needs to vote for codification of gender apartheid, and I think this is also a moment for global solidarity and mobilization that we say no to gender apartheid in Afghanistan, but also say a global no to gender regression everywhere. And I think that codification process has the capacity for global mobilization, and there is a moment and there is a process, and we need to use it. But I also think awareness and standing in solidarity is important. It doesn't have to be big. They can make a tweet, they can, if they are living anywhere in the world, they can just write because it's on the table for negotiation, they can write to their government, their representatives to support the codification process. Their country can. And if your audience are primarily friends who are hearing us in the US, there is a bill in Congress now that we are working on. And it's called Rejecting the Erasure of Afghan Women and Girls Bill that asks the Department of States for more reporting on the human rights situation and you know, and and supporting accountability mechanisms. And they can write to their representatives. It is the bipartisan bill to support that bill. That's I think what they can do in August 15. But more importantly, just read about women of Afghanistan and I think uplift their voices, retweet, and support End the Gender Apartheid campaign, and I think telling their stories, even if it's a retweet, even if it's talking to your friends, can strengthen the narrative. And I think that's what's important for us. What they can simply, what everyone can do is uplift and stand in solidarity with women of Afghanistan so we can keep the hope alive. Because if you haven't been to a school in the past five years, there is a high chance you lose hope. And women of Afghanistan cannot afford losing hope. And you know, if they knew you were with them, they I think that that strengthened that that resilience, and that's what I would ask everyone to do.

Jennie 36:09

Metra, thank you so much for being here today. It was such a wonderful conversation, and I learned so much, and I'm so grateful for you for giving yes, giving us your time.

Metra 36:20

Thank you so much, Jennie, for having me. I think this [inaudible] in solidarity is what we need in this, in this fight going forward. And it was such a humbling experience to be here and share our struggle with you.

Jennie 36:34

Okay, y'all. I hope you, I don't know, enjoyed feels like the wrong word. I hope you learned a lot during my conversation with Metra and found ways that you can get involved and take action to help raise awareness about what is happening right now. And you made it through this episode. I know it was heavy, so come back next week and we will do a fun AMA with my friend Tarah. Okay, y'all, I will see everybody next week. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media. We're at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter, or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and want to make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform, or if you want to make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all.