Boroughs & Burbs, the National Real Estate Conversation

Boroughs & Burbs 169 || Northern Florida New Development

• Season 5 • Episode 169

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Tune in to Season 5, Episode #169 of Boroughs & Burbs as we explore Northern Florida's booming new development market with real estate experts Jennifer Martin Faulkner and Kim Martin-Fisher from Douglas Elliman. With rapid growth across cities like Jacksonville, St. Augustine, and beyond, Jennifer and Kim share insider insights on the hottest neighborhoods, the region's unique appeal to buyers, and the driving forces behind its expansion. We’ll also dive into how new developments are shaping Northern Florida’s real estate landscape, including the Four Seasons Private Residences in Jacksonville. Don’t miss this discussion on opportunities in this rapidly evolving market, and what to expect heading into 2025!

SPEAKER_00:

The Burroughs are New York City. The Burbs are everywhere else. Real estate is the ultimate game of risk and reward. It's the biggest investment most people ever make. Fortunes are made over a lifetime and lost in a day. And we're not playing with monopoly money. How do you stay ahead? Who's buying? Who's selling? And why? What do they know? We want the truth. You need an edge. Burroughs& Burbs is your secret weapon, giving you the insider knowledge and strategies you need to succeed in the high We press the experts to expose the pain, find the deals, and occasionally predict the future. That's Burroughs& Burbs, Thursdays, 3 o'clock Eastern, noon Pacific. Because everyone can make money in real estate.

SPEAKER_04:

Welcome everybody, Burbs and Verbs number 169. Today we're doing Northern Florida new development. We're talking about Ponte Verde and Jacksonville and St. Augustine. I always want to say St. Augustine, but no, I think down in Florida they say St. Augustine and they say it properly. Before we begin... I want to share my screen and I want to thank the folks over at Grace Farms. And I'm very excited. That's Grace Farms in the snow. For my friends down in Northern Florida, that's known as the River Building, and that's a Pritzker Prize winning architectural design, probably about 10 years old by now. Beautiful river building that winds down the slope on an 80 acre Horse Farm, formerly a horse farm. And now it's just a model of sustainability. They have conferences there ranging from the United Nations, the Philharmonic plays there. It's just an amazing resource in the New Canaan community for the whole Connecticut community, really. And there's a library, there's cafeteria. And if you want to support Jake Grace Farms, then you should just go to the site. And if you can't go to the site because you're stuck in Northern Florida, You can buy their tea and coffee and support their mission that way. I want to begin by introducing my two guests, the KMF-JMF group, also known as Jennifer Martin Faulkner and Kim Martin Fisher of Douglas Ellman. And that's them. Welcome. How are you

SPEAKER_03:

doing? We're great. How are you?

SPEAKER_04:

First of all, what is the weather doing in Northern Florida today? Because it's freezing here in Connecticut.

SPEAKER_03:

I think we're about 67. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

it's feeling pretty nice outside. It's definitely like a wrap and peel day. So you could probably walk outside in a t-shirt and be extremely comfortable.

SPEAKER_04:

I thought in Florida of 67, it was called sweater weather. No?

SPEAKER_03:

You'll see sweaters, and you'll see people in flip-flops and shorts.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, it'll be all across the board.

SPEAKER_04:

I love it. So Jacksonville. I was surprised when I started doing my research to find that it is the biggest city in Florida. I thought Miami had that honor, and I was surprised that no, no. Jacksonville's more populous than Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Naples. What else we got? I mean, you're the biggest. Is that a new phenomenon? Is it because you've been growing lately or is it just something that's always been true?

SPEAKER_03:

We're growing by leaps and bounds. I mean, we have a lot of land mass and a lot of developers are coming in and it's just sprouting all around us. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. And ever since the pandemic, it's been just people coming in droves from all states, all across the U.S., We have been found, is what everybody, all the locals say, we have been found, we have been discovered, and now is the time for growth.

SPEAKER_04:

Is that because you've got a football team and an airport and now you're like ready to take off? I mean, does it have to do with the Jacksonville Jaguars or not so much?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, it definitely does. That's a key component. But also it has to do with Fortune 500 companies coming here. It has to do with our beautiful beaches. It has to do with our number one schools. We've got the perfect combination.

SPEAKER_04:

All right, I'm going to pull up the map. But before I do, say hello, Roberto. That's Roberto Cabrera, my partner. Where are you?

SPEAKER_01:

I'm in Manhattan. Except for Northern Florida. Tim Tebow lives there, right?

SPEAKER_04:

Tim

SPEAKER_01:

Tebow lives there.

SPEAKER_04:

It

SPEAKER_03:

sure does.

SPEAKER_01:

Are your neighbors

SPEAKER_04:

in

SPEAKER_01:

New York heading to Jacksonville, Roberto? No. That's what I was, you know, most people you think Florida, you think southern Florida. I mean, I have some friends from a long time ago. His parents live in, I think, Ponte Vedra, or they live in maybe Sawgrass, around Sawgrass. And they absolutely love it. They consider it the most beautiful part of the world. But they're the only ones that I know. I don't know others.

SPEAKER_04:

I was just learning that Ponte Vedra is the fancy neighborhood. So it goes without saying that Roberto's friends would hang out in the fancier neighborhoods of northern Florida. Talk to me about the neighborhoods of Jacksonville and Ponte Vedra.

SPEAKER_03:

Ponte Vedra is just absolutely gorgeous. We have the Ponte Vedra Inn& Club. It's world-renowned. And that's under construction right now. They're doing a huge renovation to the Ponte Vedra Inn& Club. We just have pristine beaches, beautiful neighborhoods. Everything is just immaculate.

SPEAKER_02:

It's also important to know that Ponte Vedra Beach is the home of the PGA Tour. So we are PGA Tour headquarters. It is a huge golfer slash resort community, golf, tennis. Isn't that where the TPC course is? That's right. That's where the Players' Championship is every year. And that's a big driver to our community. Also, anything along the beaches peninsula to include Ponte Vedra Beach, Jacksonville Beach, Neptune Beach, and Atlantic Beach are huge drivers for the luxury real estate market as well.

SPEAKER_04:

And are you covering Ponte Vedra and St. Augustine and all of Jacksonville? Or to be a luxury realtor in the Jacksonville market, you have to pick one?

SPEAKER_02:

No, actually, to be a luxury realtor in the Jacksonville market, you can cover anything which is pretty much waterfront to include the Intracoastal Waterway and the St. Johns River, which is the large river you see going through the urban core.

SPEAKER_01:

Is there a big difference between people who are like, you're east of the river or you're west of the river? Is that like a big dividing line, being on both sides of the tracks kind of thing? Oh my

SPEAKER_02:

gosh. Yes. It's huge in the sense of not only what the real estate looks like, really, from an aesthetic point of view, but also from a cultural point of view. It's almost like there's a lot of old money here, a lot of old wealth. And you'll find that in town, right? But you'll find a lot of the different aesthetics in the beautiful beach houses, such as what you would see in the Hamptons out in Pontevitra Beach.

SPEAKER_03:

A lot of modern construction. You'll see the traditional in-town.

SPEAKER_04:

So where on this map is the old money, as you say? Where did the growth start?

SPEAKER_02:

You will find the old money. So if you're looking at Jacksonville's urban core, where it says Avondale, San Marco, South Bank, All the way down, if you go on the east side of the river, all the way down to that 295 loop, that's where the old money is.

SPEAKER_01:

Got it. So the old money started along the river and not along the coast.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. So back in the day, the beach was considered the playground and everybody lived on the river or in town. So you'll find a lot of these beautiful old historic homes along the river. the St. Johns River.

SPEAKER_01:

So one of the things I always thought about of Jacksonville, Jacksonville is very spread out, right? The geographical landmass of Jacksonville is huge. Is the traffic bad or is it easy to get around

SPEAKER_03:

Well, it depends on what time of day, but it's typically easy to get around.

SPEAKER_02:

Look, okay, this is where her and I don't agree. I think it's easy. Because I think everywhere in Florida has bad traffic. Not compared to South Florida. Not compared to South Florida, but we do have quite the rush hour. It will feel like South Florida when you're in rush hour.

SPEAKER_01:

So does that drive decisions as far as where people... are living, for example, like in New York, they may move to Westchester or Connecticut or New Jersey or Long Island. Does that happen there where people were there in the outskirts? And did you see people leave during the pandemic?

SPEAKER_02:

100%, it matters. Because unlike the Northeast, we don't have other ways of transportation. It's only cars. We don't have trains. We don't have subways, right? We're six feet underground and you get water. Here, it really matters how far you live from where you're commuting, whether it's a school or work or wherever you are, that really, really

SPEAKER_01:

matters. Is the city center a bustling kind of place? Is it something that's important to be close to or people work from home now, it really doesn't matter?

SPEAKER_03:

It isn't right now, but it's happening. It is happening with our new four seasons, the center construction. and a bunch of developers are coming in. I mean, there's$8 billion planned for the downtown area.

SPEAKER_04:

Where on the map is that Four Seasons planned?

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, let's go to the map. I'll show you. So let's zoom in on downtown Jacksonville. Okay. And this is really incredible because what's happening down there, it's like the rebirth process. of a brand new urban core. It's a developer's dream. So see where it says Daley's Place? Right there. Yes, that is where it is. And it's riverfront. It's right there on the water. It's going to have walkability to-

SPEAKER_04:

Right here?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Below the boulevard. Wow. So there's a state, what's that stadium?

SPEAKER_02:

Right now that is Everbank Stadium.

SPEAKER_01:

Football stadium. That's where the Jaguars play?

SPEAKER_04:

That's right, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Got it.

SPEAKER_04:

Are you telling me I can stay at the Four Seasons and just stumble across the parking lot to the football game?

SPEAKER_02:

Sure can. Wow. You can also go to a concert at the ViStar Memorial Marina. You can also go to a Jumbo Shrimp Minor League Baseball game. They're also building a soccer stadium, which was announced this morning, right in the same district. So what... Mr. Khan, Shad Khan, the owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars is creating is a large sports and entertainment district. And this is going to be the driving force for development downtown, which is inclusive of that 8 billion going into the core.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow.

SPEAKER_01:

Go ahead. Go ahead, John, please. Sorry.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, so I'm wondering, are you starving for inventory like I am in the suburbs? New York, not so much. When all this development is happening, is it because there's a tremendous demand that's not being met?

SPEAKER_02:

Correct. Yes, yes, yes. I can't say it enough. We need more inventory and it's been a struggle for years now, honestly.

SPEAKER_04:

I mean, I could dive into a whole nother subject. I see my friend Russell Barksdale there. Russell Barksdale runs Waveney Life Care Network, and it is providing healthcare for the elderly. So I'm thinking, wait a minute, isn't that what Florida, the Jacksonville market is all about, where people go to retire? So talk to me about, is it still a destination? How is the healthcare? Or is it becoming more of a balanced community, not just for retirees?

SPEAKER_03:

I think it's balanced, but we have Mayo here. That's a huge driving force.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we have seven major hospitals. MD Anderson, Mayo, Baptist Health, Shands. You have Shands. I mean, it goes on and on. So with that comes many specialists that live here. So yeah, this is a wealth for the medical community. This is a major hub.

SPEAKER_04:

So if I'm choosing among... Florida cities to move to and I'm ready to retire. I think that access to health care is a major, probably top three on the list of why. So I need to know that it's easy to get to. I need to know that you have a good, let me just put it this way. I think the sports team is probably nice to have, but the airport and the hospital are probably top on the list.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

probably even higher than the quality of the beaches. I mean, I think that when I talked to, I just sold today, we had a closing on a$4 million house here in New Canaan. And I said to the gentleman, where are you going? And he said, I'm going to Florida. I've got a place in Florida and I'm now making it my full-time residence. And I think one of the driving factors for him and many of the other people like him is what's the quality of the healthcare down in Florida. And you're saying seven hospitals. Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

John, where in Florida was he? He's going to Naples. Okay. So my question is, you guys have people, I'm assuming you guys have people who they've seen Tampa and St. Pete. They've been in Southern Florida. What's the decision tree situation when they come to you? Is it more affordable in Jacksonville than it is in those other places? Is it more seasonal? Why are people going there as opposed to those other places or Orlando even?

SPEAKER_03:

We have a change of seasons. That's big.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, we actually have seasons. But another big driving factor that I see is I'm seeing more and more primary residences here than you would see in South Florida or West Florida. If you go to South Florida, you go to West Florida, you notice when you look at the inventory for real estate, there's a lot of second homes. There's a lot of vacation rentals. That's not really the case here. Here, it's a lot of primary people raising their children here, people raising families here. It's not so much... retirement or kind of like the playground that it used to be for people from Atlanta way back in the day. That's how it used to be in Jacksonville. Atlanta and Southern people would have a beach house here. Over the past 15 years, there has been a migration of primary residents and people raising families here in Jacksonville. And that's really the driving force to our market.

SPEAKER_01:

So I'm showing some schools and everything kept up.

SPEAKER_02:

Schools are number one in the state here.

SPEAKER_03:

St. John's County. St. John's County schools are. We have Bowles, a private school. Yes. Bishop Kinney. We have Episcopal. We have some great schools.

SPEAKER_02:

We have some great nationally recognized private schools as well.

SPEAKER_04:

So I'm showing a page of listings from your site and I'm looking at an$850,000 beachfront condo. I'm looking at a million dollar, a million 875 for a beachfront house and a$2 million beachfront house. But I see that they're also going up to$6,$7,$11, and$12 million. So talk to me about the range of prices and what do I get and what's popular now?

SPEAKER_03:

It depends where it's located by the pricing. It's mainly the land. Say you go to 317 Ponte Vita Boulevard, which we're closing tomorrow. That's at the top right. That is right next to the Pontevedra Inn and Club. It's not even a block away. And that's a prime location. That's a 100-foot lot. And that's

SPEAKER_04:

on the ocean, not the intercoastal.

SPEAKER_03:

It's on the ocean.

SPEAKER_04:

And the ocean costs more, even though the old money is on the intercoastal.

SPEAKER_03:

Correct. But the intercoastal is in town that you're talking about, where the old money is.

SPEAKER_01:

So how much was this house?

SPEAKER_03:

$12 million, I was asking price.$12? So

SPEAKER_01:

is someone going to raise that house and build something new? Because I noticed the house next door is being renovated.

SPEAKER_03:

The house next door is under construction. It's a brand new house, and this house will be torn down.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, so someone paid$12 million for the land.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. That's the trend here is they find these old beach houses, they tear them down, and they build new. And it's all about, in Ponte Vedra especially, being innovative. close to the clubs, meaning close to all of the Ponte Vedra Inn and Club, the Lodging Club, or any private, such as Sawgrass Beach Club, any private club, if you're close to the clubs, that directly equates to the value of your land.

SPEAKER_04:

Who's going to buy this? A professional golfer? A retired CEO? A

SPEAKER_01:

family with a gaggle of kids? You did buy it. Who did buy it?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, who did? Well, I don't want to be too pointed, but who did or would? A local

SPEAKER_02:

purchased it, yes. And I will say they are real estate diehards. So they saw the value, they knew it immediately, and they put it under contract.

SPEAKER_01:

And where do they live now? Do they live somewhere further in town? Do they live down the beach?

SPEAKER_02:

They are moving from another oceanfront home. So they just wanted to be, quote unquote, closer to the clubs. That's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So what do they currently live in?

SPEAKER_02:

They currently live in, they just sold their house. They just live in a one-story house, oceanfront, that's a little bit further south. But if they could be within walking distance or riding their bike or just a short stroll to the clubs, that's where the real value is.

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04:

Talk to me about these two cute little houses down here. I'm a kind of guy who pumps his own gas and flies coach. So I'm kind of intrigued by this million 875 on the beach. It's private

SPEAKER_01:

with little, with toy cars. Yeah, me and my toy cars

SPEAKER_04:

would fit in just fine there. Talk to me about this.

SPEAKER_03:

It's been a rental property.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, so this is a really interesting part of Ponte Vedra Beach. It's called South Ponte Vedra, and it's the stretch. If you look on the map, it's the stretch between Ponte Vedra Beach and St. Augustine, downtown St. Augustine. So if you zoom out, and we'll go east towards the ocean.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay, and we head south to St. Augustine.

SPEAKER_02:

And you see... Keep going, go a little bit north, but you'll see where A1A is, right along the ocean there. See it where it says South Ponte Vedra Boulevard?

SPEAKER_03:

Here? Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So see that stretch? It's like a really thin stretch of land that goes pretty far. I think it's about 20 miles long. See that? There's houses on here? Yeah, so that's where this house is, and this is a very popular stretch. for vacation rentals, income property. It's where if you're a tourist and you want to come and bring your family for spring break, or if you wanna come spend a month here in the summertime where it's nice and warm, this is where you rent the house, the oceanfront house.

SPEAKER_01:

But there's nothing along there that's super luxury, that's like out of the ordinary. This is a more middle of the range.

SPEAKER_02:

There are some that approach six and seven million, but there's nothing over 10 million on that strip.

SPEAKER_01:

And how far is St. Augustine from downtown? I saw Route 1 was kind of going diagonally. How long does that take?

SPEAKER_02:

It takes about 40 minutes from downtown Jacksonville. And from where our office is in Ponte Vedra Beach, it takes about 25 minutes.

SPEAKER_01:

Your office is in the shishy part of town. It sure is.

SPEAKER_02:

Nothing less for Douglas Elliman.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Well, since you brought it up, I asked these ladies, how big is their office? Now, first of all, before I asked, I said, this is the biggest city in Florida by population, bigger than Miami. And when I pulled up, How many listings? I'm going to just show you. And I said, look at that. There's 7,952 listings in the Jacksonville market. How many people are in your office? And they said... Six. Six people in the office. And they said, we have room for 15. And I said, oh, you have room for a guy like me to move down to a place like that? And they said, why, yes, we do. So I thought, I could make, if I'm a good real estate agent, I could make, hey, 7,900 real estate listings for sale, probably a few$10 million listings like the ladies have. I could make a living.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

Why aren't more realtors moving into your neighborhood? Well,

SPEAKER_02:

they

SPEAKER_04:

are.

SPEAKER_02:

But when they think Florida, especially our New York affiliates, right? When they think Florida, they think South Florida. They think Tampa because Tampa has really undergone a great rebirth. Like in the last seven years, Tampa has exploded. And honestly, that's what's going to happen here in Jacksonville very soon.

SPEAKER_04:

It is. Are you more expensive than Tampa?

SPEAKER_03:

No,

SPEAKER_02:

we're about the same as Tampa.

SPEAKER_03:

We were under price for so many years. And when pandemic happened, we just started to blossom, so to speak. And now I think that we're still, we're stable in our pricing, but I think we still have room to go. We

SPEAKER_01:

have people that are coming further South from say Savannah and South Carolina where they're kind of saying, they wanna come further South, but they still like that change of season situation. I mean, do you get people from there?

SPEAKER_03:

We do.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, we do, but what we're seeing more of is people coming from Miami. We're seeing a reverse migration. People who moved to Florida, whether it was in the pandemic during COVID or maybe right before, they're kind of over the Miami, the culture, as far as it being just fast pace, they're kind of looking for something to slow down and they see Jacksonville and they find it very appealing.

UNKNOWN:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04:

They go to Jacksonville to slow down?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

That's still the vibe?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. It is in certain aspects. So it's funny. We were just talking about this. Jacksonville, we call it the city divided because it's like two different cities in one. If you're anywhere at the beach, it's fast-paced. It's hustle-bustle. Also, a lot of the people who work downtown, they don't live downtown. They commute in and then they leave, kind of like the downtown Atlanta,

SPEAKER_03:

right? That's because there's nothing there right now. Right. But that's changing. That's what we're talking about, the$8 billion. Hustle

SPEAKER_01:

and bustle is by the beach. Yeah, the fun time. It's not in town. Town's just sleepy.

SPEAKER_02:

The town's more sleepy. The town is slower. It's got more of a southern hospitality feel. It's kind of what you would think of when you think of Jacksonville, like the traditional southern city. At the beach, it's more of what you would see in South Florida.

SPEAKER_04:

I want to spend a couple minutes now and we can come back to, but I want to talk a little bit about this Four Seasons. This is intriguing to me. So I'm going to pull it up on the screen. There's the Four Seasons, private residences, Jacksonville. I thought you were going to say it's on the ocean, but no, this, and it looks pretty big, is planned for downtown and across the street from, and I guess, is that to the right? That's the stadium off to the right behind it?

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. That's what we call the stadium of the future.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow. Wow. That's going to have a rebirth as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, they're, they're raising that stadium and rebuilding it in the exact same spot.

SPEAKER_03:

They are over a billion dollars. Wow. It'll be completed in 2028.

SPEAKER_04:

So who is this being marketed to?

SPEAKER_03:

It's being marketed to locals as well as just CEOs and people. I mean, it's really interesting about the Four Seasons. Something that we've learned about it is a lot of people just collect Four Seasons and they live in Four Seasons all over the world.

SPEAKER_01:

It's

SPEAKER_03:

really

SPEAKER_01:

interesting. Is there a hotel component to this or is it a hotel condominium? Is it?

SPEAKER_02:

So this is a, on the right side, if you're looking at the rendering, the smaller section on the right is 170 key hotel.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

And the larger section on the left side are 26 residences that will be almost, they're actually selling more like primary residences right now. They will not be a component of the hotel. They won't be short-term rentals. They're long-term or primary only.

SPEAKER_01:

So if there's a, are there like four bedroom apartments in there? Yes, there is. Yes. What sort of price per square foot do they sell for?

SPEAKER_02:

On average, we're at 2,500 price per square. And on average, we're at 3,500 square foot interior.

SPEAKER_04:

Roberto, how does that$2,500 compare to the equivalent luxury in New York?

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, in New York, it gets all over the place. It's just really depends what it is, but... I mean, anything that's like new and is supposed to be the next big special thing is 3,000 plus a square foot, 4,500 a square foot. And then when you get to like the really exclusive apartments within it, you know, you're up, you're above 5,000 a square foot. There's a couple of things on the market, 6, 7, 8,000 a square foot. You know, it's just, it starts to get kind of funny. There's something that just came out recently I saw, and there was a price of like 11,000 a square foot. It's just. Wow.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So

SPEAKER_04:

when a New Yorker like yourself hears$2,500 a foot, that doesn't sound...

SPEAKER_01:

No, and that's why I would assume you guys kind of sell well in some ways. I was just telling somebody a story. There's an apartment on the Upper West Side, which is not cheap, but it's moderately priced compared to some of the things downtown. And I remember I had a downtown broker. All he did is he worked downtown. He brought a buyer uptown, and he gave us an amazing price. And I swear it's because he... He had a different sensibility and it was such value to him. And I would imagine when people from New York go to Jacksonville, same as when they go to Chicago, we talked about that, John, it's just like the pricing is just so different that that helps you because they're like, this is great. I can get all of this for just, you know, this price. Not that it's cheap, but it's just a relative difference. I agree. Do people find that just coming from Miami to you and from, you know, Naples to you? I do.

SPEAKER_02:

Any major city. Naples is, what we found, Naples is a little bit different of a demographic. It is more of a retirement in that section. Here, it's just more of a primary residence area, and it's more of a resort area as well. People, especially at the beach, I mean, it's all about the lifestyle here.

SPEAKER_01:

How far are you guys from Atlanta?

SPEAKER_02:

Four hours by car.

SPEAKER_01:

Four hours. Is there a lot of I mean, there's people who do Boston, New York. There are people who do D.C., New York. Do you have people who do Atlanta, Jacksonville? Oh, yeah, a lot. Interesting.

SPEAKER_03:

We're Atlanta's playground. We really are. Pretty much.

SPEAKER_04:

I would imagine the competition, the big competition is... with South Florida. I mean, I think that there's something like nine new development, you know, competing with, including the Four Seasons, competing with the Four Seasons. But like nine or so, a dozen major South Florida developments going on. And I would imagine that the people looking at the Four Seasons in Jacksonville are also considering South Florida. Would you say that that's the major competition? Florida against Florida?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. I think so too. All the time. We see it almost every day. It's Four Seasons. Example, there's Four Seasons in Fort Lauderdale. There's Four Seasons in Miami, several. So if they're looking at Four Seasons in Jacksonville, they're also looking at the other Four Seasons available throughout the state.

SPEAKER_04:

And so then it doesn't come down to a price point. And you all have airports and access and good health care. So It probably comes down to the vibe. And what is your vibe? You already said it's a little bit slower than that of Miami or maybe Palm Beach. Do I go to see and be seen in Palm Beach and maybe in Lauderdale? We have the same kind of thing going on or not, right?

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, we are very much like Palm Beach. Okay. It is see and be seen, especially if you're in Palm Beach or Beach, okay? It is see and be seen. I

SPEAKER_04:

did not expect that. I thought you were going to say, oh, those Palm Beach, that's a town of sharp elbows. You got to come here where we're, oh, we're not like Palm Beach at all. You're like, nope. No,

SPEAKER_02:

no, this is the cool thing though. This is how we differentiate from Palm Beach. Even though we've got the real estate that emulates Palm Beach, We have more of a sense of quiet luxury here where you could walk right past a billionaire and you would never know it. That's what they're like here. They love the

SPEAKER_03:

quiet luxury. Fly right under the radar.

SPEAKER_04:

Roberto, you know what that reminds me of? The San Diego show where they said, you know how we're different from LA? You've got billionaires in board shorts down here in San Diego. You've got the same ocean and beautiful beaches, but we're just, it's just a little bit more relaxed vibe in San Diego versus the wound tight vibe of LA. And so, you know, I'm hearing, I'm hearing the same kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01:

No, for sure. Do you guys have many foreigners? I mean, do you have people coming from Italy, people coming from France, things like that? Not that many.

SPEAKER_02:

We really don't have that many yet. I think we need more development

SPEAKER_01:

for that to happen here. We have some London.

SPEAKER_02:

We have quite a subculture community of English, British people, and Germans, to be honest with you. Germans love it here because of the weather. You're in Florida, but it also gets a little bit colder here.

SPEAKER_04:

It's not quite so much the Latin vibe of Miami, right? Right.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. We don't have the populace that Miami has of the Latin vibe. I think it's coming. I've seen a larger demographic with the Latin vibe, and I think it's going to get only larger as we develop more.

SPEAKER_01:

Little

SPEAKER_03:

merengue. It's still so early on, the rumbles are just starting. And it's just, I just feel like we're just growing by the day. And we just, we're hearing big, big, the big boys are coming to town is what we're hearing, you know? Yeah, big names.

SPEAKER_01:

Is it a welcoming town? I mean, some places, you know, you come and it's, there's actually a feel that it's very local and it's not very... receptive to, I mean, not necessarily big metropolitan areas like this, but is there a general feel of, is it welcoming? Like you go to Palm Beach and there could be people like, you know, who are these people? And, you know, and I've never been to Palm Beach, so I wouldn't know. John is, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

That's where I met John, by the way. You met John at Palm Beach, there you go.

SPEAKER_01:

At

SPEAKER_04:

the breakers, I believe. You'll find me at the breakers. Was this

SPEAKER_01:

pinky in the air? It was. Really high up.

UNKNOWN:

My goodness.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. No,

SPEAKER_03:

we're very Southern.

SPEAKER_02:

We are overwhelmingly welcome. We are

SPEAKER_03:

very

SPEAKER_02:

nice people here. When people move here from New York, they say something funny to me all the time. They say, why are people smiling and saying hello? They're waving at me all the time. Why are they asking me how my day is? They kind of get a little, I don't know, freaked out about it because so many people are smiling to them and saying hello. But we are overwhelmingly welcoming here. Very, very nice. Very nice. That

SPEAKER_01:

is interesting because- that is, I mean, Florida has a different like connotation to me and yet it is kind of like Southern Savannah, Atlanta. It has that feel to it. That's interesting before you get down to Latino environment.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

So let's

SPEAKER_01:

go

SPEAKER_04:

back to the map. I think that's a good segue to getting back to the map. I mean, if so, if I'm if I'm being transferred to Jacksonville and I don't know anything about Jacksonville and now I know that there's that this coast is, well, the old money is on the intercoastal and the coast is. Sawgrass, also very exclusive, but not everybody is looking for that. Talk to me about the other neighborhoods and what kind of vibe I'm going to find. When we talked to the folks in West Palm Beach and I said, is Future Development Limited? And they said, oh, no, we have a plan to double that. you know, in West Palm Beach every few years. So they have a very aggressive growth plan. They have a very aggressive way of getting worker housing in there and, you know, at every level. So talk to us about the whole market of Jacksonville.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, let's talk about, you'll see on the map where it says Jacksonville Naval Air Station. Yes. There are two major airports. Navy bases in Jacksonville, which is the driving force for a lot of relocation here. So we have a Naval Air Station. We also have Mayport, which is our ship station. If you go, if you zoom out just a little bit up to the top right, you'll see Mayport on the map. Way up top, outside the Beltway? It's just outside of Atlantic Beach. So I think it went off of the map as you zoomed out, but it's right around Atlantic beach, Mayport right there. It says Catherine Abbey, Hannah Park on the ocean, George Island.

SPEAKER_04:

And

SPEAKER_02:

this is a big driving force of our economy. Not only do we have beautiful luxury oceanfront homes, but we have housing for all demographics, inclusive of enlisted and Naval officers.

SPEAKER_04:

You have that in common with San Diego as well. They said Naval is a major part of the San Diego economy and always will. And as a result, they have a great deal of affordable housing in San Diego. So you're telling me much of the same thing. It's a more balanced economy.

SPEAKER_02:

Absolutely. In fact, when I'm buying and selling with Navy officers, where are they going? San Diego

SPEAKER_04:

all the time.

UNKNOWN:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

What are these

SPEAKER_01:

neighborhoods like in the center here that is like South Side Estates, Sandalwood?

SPEAKER_02:

I love these neighborhoods. These neighborhoods have more of an historic feel. So anytime you're close to the urban core where it's Jacksonville, downtown Jacksonville, anywhere around that area, you're going to get the beautiful Southern style, historic style homes. Whether it's something that looks like it could be out of you know, upstate New York, a lot of real estate that looks like that or real estate that just looks like it could be like a cute little ranch like this that's renovated.

SPEAKER_04:

Wow. So this is as yet this this block looks undiscovered.

SPEAKER_02:

I

SPEAKER_01:

don't know

SPEAKER_02:

what happened here. But yes, that area, Sandalwood, it's more of a workforce neighborhood. But if you go a little bit further west, so towards the St. Johns River, like downtown San Marco, like if you click on San Marco, that's where you're going to see some of the really beautiful

SPEAKER_04:

real estate. Where is San Marco here?

SPEAKER_02:

Go to the left, just south of the downtown.

SPEAKER_01:

Right there on the point. You're right

SPEAKER_03:

down from the point,

SPEAKER_01:

yeah. Just to the right, two o'clock from where you are.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, here,

SPEAKER_03:

okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Beautiful area. This is where the old money lives and the old money plays. Okay. So this is where you're going to find executives, C-suite level, attorneys, doctors, specialists. A lot of them live in this neighborhood.

SPEAKER_04:

I should pick something inside the neighborhood, I guess, to look around. Oh, yeah. Okay. So a lot of beautiful old trees and a mixture of new homes and old. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. This is Belmont. So you see this house, that brick house had an historical stamp on the house. So a lot of the properties around there are historically protected.

SPEAKER_01:

And I know that you said downtown is sleepy at night, but are there any old buildings that have been converted to lofts or anything like that? Is there a downtown life that is appealing and that is, if anything, even slightly luxury in the sense of value? Well,

SPEAKER_03:

it's under construction right now. There are several nice restaurants. Jennifer can talk to us. She's a foodie.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. Okay. So if we are talking, where did the foodies go? It's going to be Riverside, which is a suburb of downtown. So if you look left where it says Ascension St. Vincent's right there, Riverside. Riverside, Avondale, and the Brooklyn area are extensions of downtown. And that's where you'll also see beautiful historic homes along the waterfront. And it's where the best restaurants are.

SPEAKER_04:

So that's why the old money wants to hang out on the intercoastal, because it's easier to shop, play, and eat in downtown than it is out there on the ocean.

SPEAKER_02:

Right, especially if you're working in town. I mean, it can get cumbersome. So if you're working and living in town, this is where you'd want to be.

SPEAKER_04:

Riverside House, let's look at that. Is that one of your restaurants? Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I don't know what that is. Is that a venue?

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, I guess that's a venue. All right. I guessed wrong.

SPEAKER_02:

So any of the house along Riverside Avenue and St. John's Avenue, that's where you'll see the really pretty real estate. Also, I should point out that Jacksonville Four Seasons will be obtaining its first Michelin star chef. which we are lacking. We're lacking Michelin star restaurants.

SPEAKER_03:

We are.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think a lot of the chefs here, they have great food and they're just on the cusp, but they're not quite there yet. And we will be bringing some next level fine dining to this city, which is much needed.

SPEAKER_04:

So we should just put the word out there now on our show, calling all Michelin chefs, Jacksonville welcomes you. That's right, yes. John George, if you're tuning in, there's room for you in Jacksonville. So what other neighborhoods should we be? What's an up-and-coming neighborhood? What's going to be the next cool place?

SPEAKER_02:

The next cool place? Or the next

SPEAKER_04:

deal?

SPEAKER_02:

Let's go to Atlantic Beach. That's a very up-and-coming. Very, very up-and-coming. So... Outside, other than Ponte Vedra Beach, Atlantic Beach, there's a cute little town center. I think we should definitely show this. Okay. Yeah, let's go to Atlantic Beach. There is a downtown town center. See where it says one ocean resort and spa?

SPEAKER_04:

So these are, I guess, okay, wait, I'll go back to the map. Okay, so we're on Atlantic Beach and you say the spa, yes.

SPEAKER_02:

You're going to click on that, and the maps will show you. Let's see if we can. That's just the hotel. But you can zoom in and look at the street that One Ocean is on. That will help understand why Atlantic Beach is such an attraction. So you just zoom in. Maybe take the little man and plop him down right there on that corner where Third Street is. and Atlantic Boulevard is.

SPEAKER_04:

Am I too far north?

SPEAKER_01:

No. You just go straight in. Zoom. Oh, near Neptune. You got to go north.

SPEAKER_04:

OK. Right in here?

SPEAKER_02:

Keep going. Keep zooming in. Keep zooming in. And see where that corner is where Atlantic Boulevard hits? See where it intersects A1A and Atlantic Boulevard? Right here? Yeah, we want to walk that street because that is all walkable from there to the ocean. So, yep, this is, that is looking west. So if you can take that street all the way downtown, it ends downtown. And then if you go east, keep going, this is going this way. Yes, go that way.

SPEAKER_03:

there you go

SPEAKER_02:

this is where people come to dine come to hang out um there's restaurants here there are shops here there's a hotel at the end of the street and this is where people just come to play on the weekends so it's a cute little downtown area People love it. There's bars and restaurants. Pete's

SPEAKER_03:

Bar is there. It's very famous.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, yeah. Isn't that the oldest bar in Florida? I think so. I think it is. It opened the day after Prohibition ended. Wow.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, it looks like old Florida as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Right. So this block... It actually expands outwards two or three blocks, but this block is really, really popular. There's actually a Miami group that came out and opened an Italian restaurant here and they're looking to expand. There's also other Miami restaurant groups that are coming into this area and downtown.

SPEAKER_04:

Interesting. All right. So this is up and coming and you think a good investment and a fun place to live and work and play and eat.

SPEAKER_02:

We do, we do. It has the walkability that people crave.

SPEAKER_04:

And it's not far from the Naval Station. Is this where Naval officers might live?

SPEAKER_02:

They might live on the west end, but the real estate in Atlantic Beach is closer to Ponte Vedra Prices. They might live in the west part, like in the Mayport part, but probably not closer to the beach.

SPEAKER_04:

How's the market changing, would you say? You did say that you think it's right behind Tampa in terms of being discovered and developed, that you think that there's an opportunity for fine dining to come in. You've got major developments coming in terms of the stadium and across the street from the stadium with Four Seasons. So tell me more about where we're heading for the next 10 years.

SPEAKER_03:

I think you're getting in on the ground floor now. I think it's just going to boom. I mean, just what we're hearing every day. We sign NDAs all the time, people coming in. It's just incredible.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. there's nowhere you would find this online looking. You would only find it speaking to an agent that is well-vetted in the community or a developer, but there are big names coming, other branded residences that are coming. And sooner than later, we are going to look just like Tampa, maybe if not better by the time we're done within the next five to seven years. We are positioned for substantial growth

SPEAKER_04:

So with my$2 or$3 million, I come down there. I saw those two houses on the waterfront, little cottages, and I could buy those. Would that be the best move, or should I be looking to the downtown area with my$2 or$3 million?

SPEAKER_02:

It looks like

SPEAKER_04:

I can't lose buying beachfront.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, man. That's a tough one. You're like splitting hairs right now. You are. It depends on what your lifestyle

SPEAKER_04:

is. You could do well either way. You can either invest in the downtown or on the beach, and you'll do well either way. The world's never going to get less expensive than a$2 million beachfront lot.

SPEAKER_03:

That's right.

SPEAKER_04:

I think you're right. I mean, Roberto, what does your market report say? Mine says that with a$70 to$80 trillion transfer of wealth from the baby boomers to the younger generation, to the millennials, that there's still plenty of money chasing beachfront real estate as long as I have all the amenities I need, hospitals, restaurants, jobs, airport. that those markets aren't going anywhere.

SPEAKER_01:

You agreed. You agreed. So where's all the new development happening, though? Is it downtown or is it outside of town? There's some at

SPEAKER_03:

the beach. Most of it's downtown. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And is it conversions of other buildings or is it they're raising buildings and just they're going to be putting up condominiums and things like that?

SPEAKER_02:

It's raising. It's brand new construction. So think of it as like a blank slate.

SPEAKER_04:

If I go down there with my 10 million, my 100 million, my billion dollars, what's the planning and zoning? What's the regulatory environment? Are they encouraging development or are they making it difficult? I mean, I think one of the major problems that LA is wrestling with is it's highly regulated. And a lot of people are saying in the wake of the, even in the wake of the fires, they don't know that it'll take anything less than say three years to redevelop a property that has had development. What kind of a development cycle am I looking at when I want to develop in Florida? Are they still receptive?

SPEAKER_02:

Very much. We are quite opposite of that spectrum. We have opportunity zones. The city is ready. They're saying, come, let's build. Let's do it together. The city is very open and receptive.

SPEAKER_04:

And besides Michelin chefs, what else do you need down there?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, man. I

SPEAKER_04:

know Russ Barksdale is listening carefully. Do you need an eighth hospital? Because he's your man.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes. We would welcome any sort of medical, more medical to the community, more Fortune 500s, more Fortune 1000s. We were just talking about this the other day. I would love it if the Brightline would make its way up here because that would help us with the traffic. That would be wonderful. But, yeah. Anything like that, we're very, very receptive and welcome.

SPEAKER_04:

Wait, why is the Bright Line, why is that something that you need? Really? Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Because think about it, Jacksonville is so huge landmass-wise. We need something to connect the neighborhoods together. We need it. Other than what we have the Beltway, which is 295, and then we have I-95. but we really need another form of transit in Jacksonville and the Bright Line would be perfect. It would

SPEAKER_03:

be.

SPEAKER_04:

I thought the Bright Line connected Orlando to Miami quickly and without traffic to connect cities to cities. Are you talking about it to connecting the neighborhoods though or to connect you to Orlando?

SPEAKER_03:

Connect us to Orlando and to the downtown to the beaches. Yeah,

SPEAKER_02:

I'm talking about all of the above.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Is there any sort of infrastructure plan from the city to create something that branches out like that like in DC or any other city where you just have, you know, it's just like a storage, everything's coming out so that people can commute changes, changes the whole dynamic of what Jacksonville would be if you had that.

SPEAKER_02:

Not yet. We don't have that in place yet. I think what they need to do is develop the urban core first, and then they can talk about connecting the neighborhoods like they would in any other major city. But if we can get the Bright Line to Jacksonville, like right now, I think they're building a route to Tampa. And that's in progress right now. But if we can get the Bright Line to Jacksonville, wow, would that bring in so much more tourism, so much more just executives coming in for the day and coming out? That's what we really would love to see.

SPEAKER_04:

Very cool.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

I'm a little surprised at the prices, the$11 million, the$12 million. Do you see that market change? Growing? I mean, that's like Miami prices. Those are like Lauderdale prices. I mean, I kind of expected that I would get a little bit more of a deal, but it sounds like your prices are just as healthy as those in, say, Lauderdale or Palm Beach. Is that true?

SPEAKER_03:

Or am

SPEAKER_04:

I just looking at the A-plus lots? You're

SPEAKER_03:

looking at the A-plus lots in their prime location next to, walked across to the spa. You know, it's a lifestyle. That's what you're looking at.

SPEAKER_04:

All right. So those are the A plus. So what is most of your market looking at when they come to see you? Are they coming in with full-time jobs or retirees? And at what level are they looking? Where's the demand right now?

SPEAKER_02:

Our biggest demand is anywhere between$850,000 to$2.5 million. That's our bread and butter. That is what you'll see in the heart of the city, all throughout the neighborhoods. That is our basic everyday pricing. Anything below that, you'll see on the outskirts of the cities or maybe properties that need to be renovated, properties that need work. Anything over two, two and a half million is what we consider the luxury product.

SPEAKER_04:

Okay. Yeah. I mean, the average house in New Canaan, Connecticut is$2 million. Greenwich,$3 million. Some of these communities, maybe Long Island, New Jersey also. But Same thing with Atlanta. So you're saying that people are cashing out of Atlanta after a successful career, perhaps, and moving to the very southern friendly, and they're looking for that$850 to$2.5 million, maybe spending a little bit less than the place they came from, or sliding in to get more for their money in Jacksonville?

SPEAKER_02:

A little bit of both. They're looking to get more of their money in Jacksonville in certain areas. But what we're seeing as far as the Atlanta demographic is they like to be at the beach because they've got their house in Atlanta or their estate. Usually, typically, the old Atlanta people like to be old money. Then they've got their beach house in Florida. Florida is their beach vacation. Now, where we're seeing the large migration coming is we have a lot of people coming from New York and New Jersey. We always have. But especially suburbs of New Jersey, they really like Jacksonville.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, New Jersey, we see a

SPEAKER_02:

lot. They really like Jacksonville because of the lifestyle and because it's a little bit like New Jersey in the sense where there's a lot of families. But at the same time, there's the beautiful beaches and the connectivity to South Florida and direct flights to New York, of So

SPEAKER_04:

the New Yorkers come down for the season. Atlanta, they drive down four hours to their second home for the weekend, for the week. So it's in either case, it's a second home situation. Although you talked about it evolving to a Fortune 100, Fortune 1000 industries coming in. just as fast. So it's evolving from a second home market to a four season market.

SPEAKER_02:

Very much so. And it has been drastically for the last five years. Very, very pronounced now.

SPEAKER_04:

Who's winning, the Atlanta crowd or the New York, New Jersey crowd? Who's coming in more?

SPEAKER_02:

New York, New Jersey, all day. All day.

SPEAKER_04:

Roberto, what are you going to do about that? Come on. You got to retain at least a few people.

SPEAKER_01:

I

SPEAKER_04:

think if the Yankees and Mets and the Knicks, very exciting, you know, get their act together, maybe a few of those New Yorkers will not have to head down to Florida to get their fix.

SPEAKER_01:

That's true.

SPEAKER_04:

This has been a really tremendous show. Do you want to leave us with a couple of final thoughts? Jennifer, Kim?

SPEAKER_02:

Only that we're so grateful and glad that you had us on. And it's so nice to see you again. Maybe I'll see you at the breakers sometime soon. And if you have any questions or if you want to contact us, you can check us out on our website, DM us. We have a great Instagram following. And you can always call us directly. You speak to us. We don't have assistants. So I don't need to

SPEAKER_04:

go to Palm Beach, the Breakers, to see you. When can I meet you at the bar at the Four Seasons? Four Seasons, Jacksonville.

SPEAKER_02:

So the Four Seasons will be complete Q3, Q4, 2026. Okay. We'll meet you at the bar, and then we'll go to the Stadium of the Future. How about

SPEAKER_04:

that? Love that idea. And that'll be ready, too? Stumble over to the...

SPEAKER_02:

That's what

SPEAKER_04:

we're

SPEAKER_02:

going to do. All right. That will be finished in 2028. So they're going to play limited seasons this season and next season. They'll either play in Orlando or Gainesville. There's the alternate for 2027 and then open brand new 2028 for regular season.

SPEAKER_04:

Do you know that I can take my boat down to Citi Field where the Mets play? just spent$700 million on a new player. I can park my boat at the World's Fair Marina and stumble, as Roberto likes to remind, stumble through the parking lot, watch a Met game, and then hop back in the boat and head out. So can you reserve me a boat slip in front of that Four Seasons, and I'll just come down by boat, because that's how I like to roll. Yes, sir.

UNKNOWN:

There will be 500 slips by the time they're done, and counting. Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

I

SPEAKER_04:

love this. This is great. It sounds like a town for me. Thank you both. This has been tremendous. Thank you to our sponsor, Grace Farms. Thank you, Roberto. Thank you, sir. Good to see you, Russ. Do what you can to retain a few of those New Yorkers, but if they must go south, I think we now know Jennifer and Kim can take care of them. Thank you all. This has been tremendous. I'll see you again next week, next Thursday at 3 o'clock. Bye, everybody.

SPEAKER_01:

Bye.

People on this episode

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John Engel

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Roberto Cabrera

Host