Boroughs & Burbs, the National Real Estate Conversation

Boroughs & Burbs 170 || Is Panama Really for Sale?

• Season 5 • Episode 170

Share episode

Send us a text

In this episode of Season 5, Episode #170 of Boroughs & Burbs, we explore the vibrant real estate market of Panama with Melissa Darnay, Founder of Choose Panama Real Estate. Melissa takes us through the unique opportunities Panama offers for foreign investors, from its diverse landscape to its booming economy. Is Panama truly a hidden gem for real estate? Melissa discusses why Panama has become an attractive destination for both lifestyle buyers and savvy investors. Learn about the legalities of purchasing property in Panama, the types of properties available, and how the country’s tax incentives and proximity to the U.S. are shaping the market. Don’t miss this insightful discussion on why Panama is a global hotspot for real estate.

SPEAKER_01:

The Burroughs are New York City. The Burbs are everywhere else. Real estate is the ultimate game of risk and reward. It's the biggest investment most people ever make. Fortunes are made over a lifetime and lost in a day. And we're not playing with monopoly money. How do you stay ahead? Who's buying? Who's selling? And why? What do they know? We want the truth. You need an edge. Burroughs& Burbs is your secret weapon, giving you the insider knowledge and strategies you need to succeed in the high Welcome, everybody. Burrs and Burbs, number 175.

SPEAKER_02:

Is Panama really for sale? I haven't given Panama much thought. I have to confess in the last couple of years, but suddenly everybody's talking about Panama. So we had to do a show about Panama, right, Roberto? We did indeed. Right. It's about time we thought about Panama. Oh, I love that. I love that. All right, so I'm going to share screen and say this is Burrows and Burbs. You can find burrowsandburbs.com. There's all 169 of our past episodes. I'm your host, John Engel. You'll find me at theengelteam.com. And let's see. That's me walking into a dramatic mid-century modern home. That's the kind of thing I sell. That is my co-host, Roberto Cabrera. Where are you

SPEAKER_03:

joining us from, Roberto? I am on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, my friend.

SPEAKER_02:

Center of the universe. I love that. I want to thank our sponsor. gracefarms.org and if you go to the foundation you can read a little bit about that's the river building and if you go to their mission it's a cultural and humanitarian center and they bring people together from across the country to explore nature arts justice community and faith so check out gracefarms.org next time you're in town or online and with that Melissa Darnay, president and real estate broker at Choose Panama Real Estate. Welcome, Melissa. So happy to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. It is so fun to be here, bringing some Panama sunshine your way.

SPEAKER_02:

Now, you found us, truth be told, and said you need to be doing a show about Panama. And we looked you up because we get a lot of those solicits. And we said, you know, she's right. And then our president put a big spotlight on Panama and everybody started paying attention to Panama. So I have to say that even before our beloved president shown a spotlight on Panama, we were interested, we knew. Where are you right now?

SPEAKER_00:

I am just outside of Panama City, about 15 minutes from the heart of Panama City, on the mouth of the Panama Canal. For those of you who are watching on video, right behind me is the Pacific Ocean that leads to the canal. So if I were to expand my view, you would see about 100 ships waiting to get to the canal right now.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, my gosh. So Panama City, I'm zooming in on the map right now, and that's the North-South Canal, and you are on the

SPEAKER_00:

Pacific Ocean? The Pacific Ocean side, correct.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. And at the mouth of the canal, is that Balboa, Fort Cobb?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, Fort Cobb. When the Americans used to control the canal, there was an Air Force base called Howard Air Force Base and Fort was the fort here. So there is a beach here. It's a very small beach. It's right now called Playa Bonita Beach. And in our little corner of the world, there is a residential tower and there's a five-star hotel. And it's a beautiful resort community that has a lot of great things going on. So I've lived here since... I first moved to Panama 13 years ago, and I can't imagine myself ever living anywhere

SPEAKER_03:

else. So where did you come from? Where were you living before?

SPEAKER_00:

I grew up in California, but then I spent 15 years in Dallas. And one of the reasons I think I moved to Panama, it was just I was looking for an adventure. You know, Dallas is such an easy place to live, but there's not a lot of natural beauty. So here there's abundant natural beauty, like I grew up with in California, but a much friendlier price tag.

SPEAKER_03:

Did you go on your own? Did you go with the family? Did you go with kids?

SPEAKER_00:

I went on my own. My husband had recently passed, and I just decided it was time for an adventure.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow. So can we back up just a little bit? What's the population of Panama? Can you give me some statistics?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. Panama's about 4 million people, and about 75% of those people live in and around Panama City. So in Panama, if you're here for any length of time, they call it the city Panama. and the interior, because outside of Panama City, it's very sparsely populated.

SPEAKER_03:

Right. I remember about 20 to 25 years ago, there was a client of mine, friend, and her brother used to go surfing in Panama. I was like, he goes to Panama to go surfing? And she said he loves it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, there's a lot of great surf opportunities in Panama. You know, Panama has like 1,500 miles of coastline. So you can have anything. You can have what's behind me, which is very, very quiet, almost no surf. And you can get to some incredible surf areas.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm seeing quite a skyline of skyscrapers. Is that the downtown? It looks like it's... Frankly, it looks a lot bigger than Charlotte, North Carolina, or it looks bigger than Boston. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, like most areas that are surrounded by water, there's less land, which allows it, you know, which caused more skyscrapers. When I first came to Panama on vacation in 2010, I actually thought it was going to be like roosters and dirt roads and, you know, a drug dealer on every corner. And I was so shocked when I actually discovered what Panama City was, which is these sleek skyscrapers and elegant restaurants and everything that I was used to back home and, you at a friendlier price tag with much better weather.

SPEAKER_03:

Let me ask you a stupid question. Because you're so susceptible to both oceans and it's such a narrow profile, do you get hurricanes? Do you get any natural disasters?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, this is one of the things that's so surprising to everyone. We actually don't get any natural disasters. I did a podcast about this myself, but because we're so close to the equator, hurricanes cannot get close to or across the equator. So we're in a safe zone from hurricanes. We are off the fault lines So no earthquakes. We don't get forest fires because it's a rainier climate. So we literally have no natural disasters. Which means insurance is dirt cheap. So to give you an example of just homeowners insurance, if you're going to buy a property for$500,000, you'll pay one-tenth of 1%, which is about$500 per year in structure and fire insurance.

UNKNOWN:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, right? They're all laughing.

SPEAKER_03:

That's incredible. And what are your borders? To the north, you have who?

SPEAKER_00:

Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_03:

Costa Rica. And to the

SPEAKER_00:

south, you have? Colombia.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and there's no road into Colombia because of the jungle. So there is a road into Costa Rica. The crime rate here is very, very small. You know, a lot of people are also shocked by that. And unlike a lot of areas that are tourist destinations such as, you know, Paris or Rome or something like that, most of the crime takes place not in tourist areas. So they've done a good job of making it very tourist friendly because it's a big part of the economy.

SPEAKER_03:

Is it distinctly a Latin environment?

SPEAKER_00:

For sure. Yeah. But because the Americans had such a presence here, there's a lot of people who speak English. I very naively, when I moved here to open a business, spoke five words of Spanish, literally, like bathroom, wine, please. Those are my words. Now I can communicate in full sentences and present tense, but I'm still not completely fluent.

SPEAKER_02:

And I don't have to be fluent in Spanish to enjoy Panama?

SPEAKER_00:

No. And that's one of the big benefits. There's always somebody who speaks English. And the other thing is the people here are such lovely people. If they don't understand you, they're going to work with you to try to understand you. So whether it's through an app or whether it's through charades, they'll smile and it becomes a game to them. And I have to say, like back in my life in the US, I'm not sure that I was as kind, but you do learn a whole different level of kindness when you are in a country that's not yours and trying to speak to somebody in a language that's not yours.

SPEAKER_03:

Now, you went there to work. So did you have any work issues? Did you have to get certain permits or visas, et cetera?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure. So I have a visa. I had to get a residency visa to live here, and then I had to get a work permit, and then I opened a corporation. And that sounds complicated in a lot of countries, but Panama makes it very easy. They want people to move here, and they have a whole slew of different residency options. So if you're retired, making literally only$1,000 a month in some sort of retirement, like Social Security, you can get the pensioner's visa, where you can get... discounts on like 25 off of restaurants um 50 or 20 off of travel originating in panama 50 off of like movie theaters and things like that so for somebody who's retired life here can be very very inexpensive and they also give you your own lines and banks and movie theaters

SPEAKER_02:

can we review um no natural disasters

SPEAKER_04:

correct

SPEAKER_02:

expensive cost of living beautiful beaches uh fine restaurants a legitimate first class first world city uh and they like americans

SPEAKER_04:

right

SPEAKER_02:

um can i just make the observation that your marketing department stinks because Everybody should. It sounds like everybody should be going to Panama. Why would anybody vacation in Costa Rica when you guys are have everything Costa Rica has is what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_00:

And better, you know, and I've said I've been saying this for years. Panama has not had a good public relations department at all. Costa Rica, because maybe it's an it's an older country. country. They've been doing this a little bit longer. Costa Rica's publicity department is a machine. And now with Costa Rica, their prices are almost double what Panama is. There's a lot of things that are easier, better in Panama. But again, we're a young country. The

SPEAKER_02:

I mean, it sounds like they're relying on Melissa.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. To do all the

SPEAKER_02:

marketing.

SPEAKER_00:

And I have to tell you, this never would have happened in the US, but I literally am about one degree of separation from absolutely everybody in the country, from the president to whomever. I could literally reach out and pretty much connect with anyone. I do have my own podcast, so I'm constantly out there saying the wonderful things about Panama. Like I said, I think it's the best place to live. I will probably never leave. I can't imagine it. Because life here is easy and uncomplicated. You get all the good things without the bad things.

SPEAKER_02:

We're going to dive into the real estate, but because you mentioned getting there, I just did a search and direct flights out of New York are 600 bucks. But you can get direct flights to 12, I think 12 different US cities, Dallas, Philadelphia, Charlotte. You can fly direct from Charlotte to Panama. You can't get from Charlotte to anywhere direct, but yet they go to Panama. So I have to say, I am pleasantly surprised at how accessible this is. Panama is, and how cheap. That's a cheap flight.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. And like I said, so many people, once they get their pensioner's visa, and then they get that extra discount when you're here and you plan to go somewhere else, you can go to Istanbul, you can go to Colombia, you can go to Brazil from here, and then getting that extra 20% off on the flights is, I don't know, it's fun.

SPEAKER_03:

So who's moving there? I mean, and are people moving there permanently, or are they buying... think like a second home there? Like what is the general?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, so who is moving to Panama is a different answer than who is my client. So who's moving to Panama? You do get a lot of pensioners who cannot afford the United States anymore. You do get people who don't like the weather from where they were and the weather here is so nice all year long. So it's an easy decision. My next door neighbor is 88. He just moved here at 86 and just loves it here. I don't think you'll ever get him to leave. So that's somebody who's moving here specifically full time. Our typical client, though, wants a vacation home here. And whether that's for one month a year, six months a year, they don't necessarily want to give up their U.S. footprint. And they like their life in the U.S., but they just want to spend some quality amount of time here. And then when they're not here, they can either rent out their apartment to make it cash flow positive, or they can lock it and leave it.

SPEAKER_02:

And you said that that's the typical, but that's not your client.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, our client doesn't typically move here full-time. Probably 95% of our clients, this is not a full-time residence because they have places... not just one other residence, but many other residences around the world.

SPEAKER_02:

Can I ask you about the weather? I mean, I know you say it's warm, but is it warm like Dallas, which is warm like L.A., warm like Florida? Is it is it I mean, so is it humid?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. So there's two different climate areas. So there's where I am, where it's going to be like in the 80s all year long, all year long. A hot day, I've never seen it. In 13 years, I've never seen it get above 93 degrees. And for anyone who has been to Dallas, 93 degrees is a walk in the park because it gets to be 110, 115. So you'll never see that here. In the mountain region, it's typically 68 to 82 all year long with most of the weather being right there in that sweet spot in the 70s. So there is a climate for everyone. I like living close to the city because I like all the city has to offer. You know, again, there's going to be a hot day, but it never gets above 93. Some times of year are more humid than others. So April and May tend to be more humid. This time of year, it's not very humid. I looked it up for a client a couple days ago, and I think it was about 58% humidity, which isn't bad. So it's very livable when you're going to the store, when you're getting into your car, it's not overly hot, it's never cold. It's just nice.

SPEAKER_03:

So what time difference, just curious, what time is it there?

SPEAKER_00:

So we're in Eastern time right now. We don't change time zones. So when the US changes, we will be the same as Central time, but we don't change.

SPEAKER_03:

But that's good for travel because you're not dealing with the-

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly, exactly. You know, to me, what's the catch? There is no catch. It's something people have to experience for themselves because it does check all the boxes. You know, I think most people, when you vacation someplace, there's something in the back of your head that says, could I live here? Could I get a vacation home here? And then you get back from vacation and you forget about it. But I think Panama is one of those places, you know, if you have the funds, if you have the ability to, that... It makes sense to vacation here. The prices of property don't drastically go up and down. It's not a volatile market. It's very stable. The carrying costs are super low. The hit costs HOA, insurance and taxes, will typically for an apartment be somewhere between like$500 to maybe$1,000 a month, depending upon the size and the price of an apartment.

SPEAKER_02:

Here are the Casa Bonita apartments on your website. Yes. And I'm looking at a million dollars,$900,000. Where does this fit into the pantheon? Is this luxury?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. So the penthouse is luxury, the million dollars. I think anything in Panama that you're going to pay a million dollars for is definitely going to be on the luxury side. You can buy absolute beachfront in Panama for as little as about$150,000.$80,000,$90,000. It's not going to be big, maybe 750 square feet.

SPEAKER_02:

So you're going to pay up to be in the penthouse of a tower that can see not only the ocean, but really 360 degrees where I'm looking over the mountains, the ocean, the green valley.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02:

Amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

So in this particular property, one of the reasons I like this one so much, in Panama City itself, there are laws prohibiting short-term rentals. This actually happened before the Airbnb boom. The laws came on the books in 2012 to protect the hotel industries that was starting to invest in Panama. In order to rent for short-term rentals, which are the vacation rentals, Playa Bonita is just outside the District of Panama, which means the law does not apply here. So you can do short-term vacation rentals in this building. The average price of an apartment in this building is about$450,000, and it will go up to, I think the most expensive one is about$2.5 million. But somewhere in there, you're going to get a nice range. Also, this building doesn't have any property taxes for the next six years, so until 2032.

SPEAKER_03:

Is it a new construction?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, back in the early, mid-2000s, they wanted foreign investment, the government did. So they created some incentives, and some of those incentives were long-term tax exonerations on new builds. So this building was one of the last buildings to get that exoneration. So it was granted the exoneration in 2011. So it has till 2032 for the 20-year exoneration.

SPEAKER_03:

And what would$2.5 million buy you? You said it goes up to$2.5 million.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so the$2.5 million is about 4,000 square feet. It probably has about 1,000 square feet of outdoor deck space. It has been completely remodeled, so it's above what you would normally get. They've done a lot of work on the inside. It faces both the city and the Panama Canal, so it does have that 180-degree ocean view. Is

SPEAKER_03:

facing the canal a desirable thing or not?

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, when people think canal, I know that that can have a negative connotation, but because we're on the mouth of the canal... We get the sparkling blue big ocean, but yet you also see instead of, you know, when you're just looking at the ocean at night, it can be boring because it's just dark. But because we have all the ships lining up, there's always something interesting to watch. There's, of course, always cargo ships. There are all the yachts of the rich and famous. And we know, oh, that's and there are apps where you can track who's on the different ships and yachts.

SPEAKER_02:

Actually, it's kind of interesting. It looks like just beyond the ship, it looks very green and verdant and beautiful.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, so the canal portion itself is freshwater, and that converges with the Pacific Ocean on one side and the Caribbean on the other side. So both the oceans are blue, and then the canal is more of a green color. But it is pretty.

SPEAKER_03:

Is there noise that emanates from these ships at all? Just curious.

SPEAKER_00:

Not much. I mean, every once in a while you'll hear a horn, but it's an anomaly. More so because we're at the edge of the jungle, you know, because here there's jungle and ocean and canal. So every morning I hear parrots and I hear monkeys and I hear howler monkeys and a lot of different jungle sounds, which is very relaxing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So if you were to drive to the other coast, how long would that take?

SPEAKER_00:

About an hour.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, so it's

SPEAKER_00:

quite near. There's a nice highway that takes you to the Caribbean.

SPEAKER_03:

And what's on the other side of the, like if you get to the other mouth of the canal, is there another city there?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so there's Cologne, which is not an area that I would suggest any expat relocates to. It's very, you know, it's industrial. It's very local, completely different than Panama City. It's interesting to me because the Caribbean side is actually prettier. It's that sparkling turquoise water, but it's not as developed. So things like the internet isn't as fast. Where I am, there's one gig up and down. And on that side, you know, it's not as stable because they haven't invested in infrastructure. So there's Cologne

SPEAKER_02:

on the East Coast, on the Atlantic Coast.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_03:

So is there beachfront property along there that has not been developed and could at some point be developed to be something? I mean, obviously we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars, but something where someone would do that?

SPEAKER_00:

Yep, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

So I see there's a city of Cologne and then is this, I guess this is the port. And is this a, talk to me about Cologne. Is this port for pleasure craft or is that for ships?

SPEAKER_00:

So Cologne is the second largest city in Panama. Again, it's very different from Panama City. It's not an elegant city. It's industrial. So there is a port there. There are two places if someone wants to come to Panama City to see the Panama Canal. On the Pacific Ocean side, there's the locks called Miraflores. That's the visitor center. And on the Caribbean side, it's called Agua Clara. So you can, as a visitor, go to both. We actually encourage people go to both sets of locks if this is something that really interests you because you get different experiences. On the Cologne side, there's a Cologne free trade zone, which is where a lot of the goods for all of Latin America are going to land before being distributed to Costa Rica or Brazil or wherever. And then there's also going to be a port. So for example, if you were moving from New York and you were to put your stuff on a container, your household goods on a container, it would come down to the port of Cologne because it is so expensive to go through the canal. They would not bring it through the canal to bring it right here. They would actually take it to the port of Cologne, offload it, put it on a truck, and then drive it across the country an hour.

SPEAKER_03:

So... If you go, let's just say we're looking north-south here. If you go east-west, you're just getting into a very rural, undeveloped part of the country.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. So if you follow the coastline on the Pacific Ocean side, this is the one that was developed first. So the Pacific Ocean side is going to take you to about two hours out of Panama City. You're going to get to an area called Coronado, which is the main beaches area. So just like the south of France, we have a Panama Riviera. If you were to drive from one end to the other, it would take you about two hours. And in that area, there's a lot of different types of beaches. You'll have white sand beaches. You'll have kind of the volcanic black and tan swirl cone beaches. You'll have beaches where you don't see a single person. all day, and then you'll have beaches where there's a lot of activity. So in that two hours, there are, like I said, quite diversity. Some of the areas are known for extreme water sports, like kite surfing and regular surfing. And other areas are known more for, you know, come build your dream house right on the ocean and enjoy the White Sand Beach. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_02:

So Coronado, is it right there on the map, two hours south of Panama City?

SPEAKER_00:

Two hours north, yes.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay, north.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03:

So that's like the getaway for people in Panama?

SPEAKER_00:

It is, and Panama's really funny. Every single weekend, the entire city empties out and everyone goes to the beach. They go on Friday, they come back on Sunday.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. Do I fly in from the U.S. to Coronado, or do I fly into Panama City and take a car?

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, you would fly into Panama City and take a car. There is an airport there that you can get to from Canada, but it wasn't approved by the FAA, so no American flights are allowed there. Interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

And what are the prices in Coronado, your Riviera?

SPEAKER_00:

So you can start in an absolute beachfront apartment, about 750 square feet, like you walk out your door and your toes are in the sand, that's about$180,$190. That's the starting point. Then if you want to go to the high-end side of that, if you want a 7,500-square-foot house in a resort with a marina, but it's still absolute beachfront, that's going to be between probably$3.5 to about$7 million for that.

UNKNOWN:

Wow.

SPEAKER_03:

And is boating a big... I mean, people with yachts and...

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, we have quite a few marinas here. And it's something that's interesting because when I first got to Panama 13 years ago, there weren't that many boats. And now we have quite a lot of new marinas. So it's becoming more popular.

SPEAKER_03:

I mean, I would say that's an indication that there's a lot of wealth that's going in that direction.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm on Realtor and I chose the... Coronado, Playa Coronado, Panama City. You're right,$230,000 for a condo on the tower. And yeah, it looks beautiful and verdant and green and unspoiled.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And again, the carrying costs. So for something like the one I was talking about, that's under$200,000, your carrying costs are going to be about$400 a month all in.

SPEAKER_02:

So how do they tax? Is there an income tax, a property tax taxing coming in or when I sell?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so the government collects taxes in several ways. First of all, everything has the sales tax. So 7% every time money changes hands. So that's number one. And I think that's pretty high up in what the government collects. Second, when a property is transferred, there's a 2% transfer tax that the seller pays. So the buyer can get in dirt cheap. They really have almost no expenses except for the registry expense. That's based on the value, but a typical property is going to be like$1,800 to register it. Then it's 2%, and then you're going to have a capital gains. There's two different ways to do that. Typically, the best way to do it is 10% of the actual gain. So if you've made$100,000, then you pay 10% of that.

SPEAKER_03:

And how has the market changed from when you arrived to now?

SPEAKER_00:

The interesting thing is it has not gone way up or way down. When I was in Dallas for 15 years, it stayed very flat. And I would say that is also what is doing. We didn't dip a lot in COVID. There were some fire sales, of course, but there weren't a ton of fire sales. When the country opened back up March of 2021, it was literally this sea of investors that over a six-week period came in and ate up all the undervalued properties. So now we're back to where we should be. I'm pretty happy where it is because even though we don't have that huge appreciation each year, we don't have the downturn either.

SPEAKER_03:

How about the deal volume?

SPEAKER_00:

So the volume is based because we are affected geopolitically. We have gray years or lean years depending upon what's going on, not just in Panama, but around the world. So things like when the Canadian currency devalued back in 2015, we felt that because at that time we had a lot of Canadian buyers. When the war started in Ukraine, we felt that. So any type of instability, we do get that knee jerk reaction and then things settle down again. And

SPEAKER_03:

speaking a little bit about the elephant in the room with what the president has been, has put you on the table. Yeah. what has been the reaction and what is the thought process? I mean, affecting it one way or even the other.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, first of all, what's the issue that he raised? The canal or the ports? I mean, what's been changing?

SPEAKER_03:

The canal being taken, being controlled really by the Chinese. And they're saying that the Chinese lease a lot of property on both ends of the Panama Canal. And that I heard that they had been approved to build a bridge over the Panama Canal. And there was a concern that if there's some sort of geopolitical issue, that they could control the traffic going through there and drastically affect what's happening to the US.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so basically, yeah, to summarize that a little bit, so there are these operators on both sides that take the containers off of the ships. Okay, so we have a Chinese company on either side that do those businesses. So what's being implied is that because all Chinese businesses are actually Chinese government businesses, is that if the Chinese government were to say, you know, put your cranes down, stop the traffic, that they would in fact do that. Marco Rubio was here a few days ago, and I think the message on the ground is more, okay, let's find another solution rather than Chinese control of these two companies. Maybe let's get American companies in there. But on the ground, we're not hearing that he's going to take back control of the canal. I don't think the Panamanian government would ever allow that to happen. So right now it's just a negotiation about who's going to control these two companies on either end. It's almost a non-starter here because I don't think people here are worried about it.

SPEAKER_03:

But has it affected the number of phone calls you get one way or the other or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00:

No, the number of phone calls that we get, you know, after any election are, phone calls increased dramatically. So right now it's the same scenario. The volume that we're dealing with right now is probably the highest it's ever been. Of

SPEAKER_02:

demand. So demand is high. How's supply?

SPEAKER_00:

Supply right now is still good, but we've had this conversation myself and a few other people in the industry where that if this keeps up for any length of time, we're going to have to scramble. And it would be the first time that since I had been here, that it would go from a buyer's market to a seller's market.

SPEAKER_02:

Are you also experiencing lock-in where people got in, got good financing and are reluctant to let their properties go because they've got good financing?

SPEAKER_00:

It's actually hard for an expat person to get financing in Panama. So most of our deals are cash deals.

SPEAKER_02:

What if I want financing? Yeah, can you help me out?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, so there's two different types of financing available. One is developer financing. This is a short-term, five-year financing, interest only. You don't have to apply for it. You just sign it. The property is the collateral. If you don't pay, they take the property back. That one is more like a bridge loan and it's been very easy. It's been very easy because a lot of times people will have money, but it's in another house, it's another real estate, it's in 401k and they can't get to it and they just need a little bit of time. Super easy, only a couple of developers in Panama offer that. So if somebody does need financing, that needs to be like the first conversation we have instead of the third. The other type of financing is actual bank financing that's a traditional loan. This is a lot harder for expats. It's not impossible, but it does take a little bit more time. The other thing that's important is someone's age because with a bank loan here, you have to get life insurance and the Panama life insurance companies will only insure you until age 75. So if you're 55, no problem. You've got 20 years to do a loan. If you're 45, wonderful, you can get a 30 year loan. But if you're 65, the chances of getting a loan would be very small.

SPEAKER_03:

And what sort of interest rates are there on these loans?

SPEAKER_00:

Usually it's going to be whatever the U.S. is plus about 2%. Plus

SPEAKER_03:

2.

SPEAKER_00:

Plus 2,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah. But you said most, and therefore maybe as a result, you're saying most of these people are cashing in on their U.S. real estate equity, cashing in on that big house in Dallas, coming in and buying for half the price or less. Correct.

SPEAKER_00:

Correct. Yeah. Because even someone who wanted to keep their house, if they needed an easier way to finance, it would be easier to get a home equity line of credit than to try to get financing here. And also, you know, your American bank is not going to give you financing for a Panama property. I get asked that all the time. And

SPEAKER_02:

where are they coming from? New York, Dallas, Florida?

SPEAKER_00:

I would say most of the big cities. Interestingly, the one place we weren't getting a lot of people was California. And I paid attention to that because that's where I'm from. And I think now with this last set of wildfires, I think that's going to change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

What else do I need to know if I'm coming there to buy something? Like what is the initial conversation?

SPEAKER_00:

The initial conversation is what do you want it for? Do you want strictly ROI? Because... If we're going to talk about that, I'm going to put you like in Costa del Este, which is a neighborhood in Panama City that has 120 multinational companies and like Samsung and Nestle and Procter and Gamble. And the demand is so high that if somebody leaves a rental in the morning, it's going to be rented again in the afternoon. If you want something that you want a vacation part of the year and then you want to rent it out so that your cash flow positive the rest of the year, then that's going to be a different conversation. That's going to be something like Casa Bonita on Playa Bonita. It could be in Coronado potentially, but one of my favorite places is the one right on the Panama Canal because it's so close to the city and we are so close to world-class hospitals. The healthcare here was actually surprisingly amazing in all of the best ways. I don't think I ever could have imagined how good the healthcare is. So if somebody needs access to healthcare, anywhere in or near Panama City is going to be the best place.

SPEAKER_02:

How do I pay for it? It's a cash-based or?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, most of the stuff is cash-based. Since I've been here, I've been self-insured, which means I pay as I go. A lot of people do get insurance. It's a couple hundred bucks a month, depending upon your age or whether you have a preexisting condition. But for example, when I had to have an EKG, it was$60. My next door neighbor was taken to the emergency, the other room, and he had to have a catheter put in and urine taken out of his system because he wasn't going correctly. And after a couple hours in the hospital, his bill was like$120. So most people just pay as you go.

SPEAKER_03:

That's the cab ride to the airport, to the hospital here. How's the infrastructure and like traffic and I mean, is it easy to get it around or is it difficult and they really need to create more roads and things like that?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think Panama City has been growing faster. They are trying to stay ahead of it. They do have, you know, since I've moved here, there's always been big infrastructure projects. There are some places that could be better. So for example, I live over a bridge. So sometimes that bridge traffic is not as friendly as I would like. But you just learn to live your life. So I don't have to be in the city before 9 a.m. And I just plan to be back from the city by 4 p.m. Or I stay in the city and have dinner.

SPEAKER_03:

And how much development... Sorry, John, hang on. How much development... is planned like residential development for condominiums is that a is that something you can monitor is there a decent flow of it do you know what's coming

SPEAKER_00:

yes some areas again like costa del este it's an entire planned community so instead of being hodgepodge like the heart of panama city is it was planned by two of the biggest families in panama one of the families owns copa airline which is the big airline that services everywhere and the other family is the burn family that is the biggest developer in panama so they've done for example the burn family have done over 200 residential towers and they are also the biggest hotel operator i think they have about 18 or 19 hotels

SPEAKER_03:

and that neighborhood is where in relation to the downtown city is it north of

SPEAKER_00:

So the Costa del Este is south and it's a little counterintuitive on the map. So from the international airport, which is Tocumen, you would get to Costa del Este first before you got to Panama City.

SPEAKER_02:

Sorry, John. No, that's fine. Let me pull that up. So where exactly on the map is this airport? I think it's, you said near the...

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, if you look up PTY, which is the airport code, PTY Panama.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay, PTY Panama. Boom, okay. So there it is to the east of town.

SPEAKER_00:

Right, and we just one year ago finished an airport expansion that doubled the number of terminals and tripled the number of people that can be processed. People who come here year after year have noticed a difference in how quickly they can get through immigration and get their luggage and get out and have fun.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's super important. How far a drive is that to you from the airport?

SPEAKER_00:

So from the airport to Costa del Este is about 10 to 15 minutes. Into Panama City, 20 minutes. To where I am, depends on who's driving, 30 to 40 minutes.

SPEAKER_02:

So you're in Costa del Este right there?

SPEAKER_00:

No, I'm not. This

SPEAKER_03:

is the new neighborhood that you were talking about right there.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. Costa del Este. So for somebody who's just an investor and it says, okay, I want something that's going to give a 10% ROI. I want to diversify my portfolio and get some of the money out of the U S I'm interested in something that's very stable. This is the area I would do it. And again, out of those 120 multinational companies, we're getting more and more every year. So there's more and more demand. The developers do have more projects planned, but they literally cannot build them fast enough. One of the new projects I'm really excited about is something called Generation Tower. It's going to be literally the next block over from the Johns Hopkins Affiliated Hospital. And it's going to be the only independent living facility property in Panama. And I know that something, because my mom's about this age, she talks about it all the time and how hard it is. You have to get on a waiting list and how there's nothing available and how expensive it is. And for about$200,000,$250,000, you can buy something in this project that's either for somebody you love or yourself. There's going to be nurses stations, panic buttons. The first of its kind is And again, the carrying costs are so low that I'm very excited about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Is it one of these towers or to be built?

SPEAKER_00:

It's to be built. They've just started. They've just broken ground. So it's probably two, two and a half years from being finished.

SPEAKER_02:

How much for an apartment in one of these towers?

SPEAKER_00:

So it depends on which tower. What you're looking at is frontline. So frontline typically is going to be plus or minus a million dollars.

SPEAKER_04:

Those

SPEAKER_00:

are also like 3,500 to 4,000 square feet.

SPEAKER_03:

Is there any affiliation with the generations that you find in Canada?

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think so, no.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

No.

SPEAKER_02:

It's beautiful. I mean, every one of those towers looks like it's brand new and shiny and clean.

SPEAKER_00:

Stop scrolling for a second. I want to talk to you about what's in the view. Right now, what you're looking at is the Town Center Mall. That's a brand new mall that's only a couple of years old. It has a VIP theater, a lot of different restaurants, and it's attached to the Johns Hopkins affiliated hospital, as well as the medical offices of a lot of the doctors who work there. So anytime you need something, we have so many amazing hospitals, but anytime you need something, if you were to live there, basically Generation Tower would be right across the street from it, right about where your camera is now.

SPEAKER_02:

Straight ahead.

SPEAKER_00:

Straight ahead. So right where the camera is, that's where the tower is. So that would be the view looking back toward the city.

SPEAKER_02:

Got it. Wow. And you're selling, are you the agent for Generation Cow?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I'm one of them. I'm a licensed real estate broker in Panama, so I can sell anything anywhere in Panama. Now, the reality is I know who my clients are, so I don't sell anything and everything. I do have my favorite things for investment for people who want the mountains, for people who want a vacation rental. I do know after being here what the good spots are and what the bad spots are. So that's something we definitely help with.

SPEAKER_02:

Don't they know that you're a marketing force to be reckoned with?

SPEAKER_03:

Is your business competitive?

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. Took me a second. I was like, really? Is that a real question? Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

No, because I mean, some people might dominate a certain place and then the barrier to entry could be very difficult. Some places it's a little bit more, and when there's a lot of inventory, everybody's okay. When it's tight, it becomes really difficult.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. One of the things when I first moved here, Like anybody driving a taxi would be like, oh, I sell real estate. And so they have tightened up on the rules and regulations about selling real estate, and I'm very grateful for that. Because, you know, we're a real real estate company. We're licensed, we're bonded, we take the tests, et cetera.

SPEAKER_02:

Yep. How about as a developer? We've talked about retirees going down there. Have we talked about, but what about as a developer? I understand I can't get financing. I've got to secure my financing back here in the US, but who's building those towers and why? Why are they building those towers? Are those Panamanians building those towers or is that investment coming in from the US and or China?

SPEAKER_00:

The bigger companies are definitely Panamanian and they've been doing it for generations. The smaller companies, there are new companies that are foreign companies. There was a China company, a China construction company tried to develop something here and they did not succeed and they closed their doors pre-COVID, which was interesting. I think what happens a lot of times, not everyone understands the American mindset. And I'm going to just put Canadians in that with us too. We have certain things that we're looking for. And that's, I think, one of the reasons I've been so successful in Panama is because I'm an American. I know what my client is thinking before they're thinking it. I know what they want before they actually say it. In Panama, because it's a Latin country, there are different types of properties available. And something that's going to be very Latin that's going to appeal to the Latin community is probably not going to appeal to the North American expat community. One of the reasons for that is because Latins tend to have extended families. So if they have 3,000 square feet, they want it chopped up into as many pieces as possible so that every faction of the family can have their own little private area with closed and locked doors. Whereas an American would take that same amount of space and say, oh, there's two of us. We don't want any, you know, we want as few barriers as possible so that there is a difference in how they design the projects.

SPEAKER_02:

Fascinating. Wow. Work from home. So you did mention earlier that some people come down there and they want to spend one month and then rent it out, short term rentals, or perhaps take the key with them. But you mentioned another cohort that wants to be down there for six months out of the year. It occurs to me that that may be consultants and other people who are still working. They're not yet retired and they want to and they can do their job. flying back and forth to Panama. How does work from home rules changing affect your market? I would imagine as a lot of the New York-based businesses, certainly Roberto, are saying, we expect you to work in the office. We're seeing it today in the top news stories in Washington. Washington is saying there's new requirements for work in the office. Is that going to affect that market for you where people thought they could work remotely and they can't?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, and I think this has changed so much. When I first got here, it was my clients were either retirees or pre-retirees. There was almost nobody in their 30s, 40s or early 50s. Then, of course, that changed during COVID. And then I started getting people in their 20s and 30s because, you know, they could afford a$200,000 condo. And I think now that We are still seeing, especially the Gen Xers who want to be here for a certain amount of time. Maybe they have to work at the office when they're at home, but they do get the one month or two month window when they can work remotely and maybe they've worked that out or they have their own business. I think there's a lot of different scenarios, but I do see more and more people are still coming in at a younger age and spending time here.

SPEAKER_03:

Families, any young families with kids?

SPEAKER_00:

Sure, sure. My sound engineer who's right behind me, he's nodding his head off. They have eight kids, three young ones. So their kids are in the French school, which is five minutes away. And it's funny because you think why a French school in Latin America, but their kids literally one year after being put in school here were already trilingual in French, Spanish, and English.

SPEAKER_03:

Wow.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Did he come from the U.S. or did he come from France?

SPEAKER_00:

From U.S. Yeah, no, no one spoke French when they got here.

SPEAKER_02:

Texas?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, from Texas. Uh-huh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

How about the Europeans? Have they discovered Panama yet?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, some countries, it depends on what's going on with a country. So when, like, for example, France was in crisis, we got a lot of French people. Right now, Germany's in a bit of crisis, so we're getting a lot of Germans here. That happens both from Latin America, from Europe. So we're getting a lot of South Africans as well. And that'll change depending upon what's going on in their own country.

SPEAKER_03:

Do you have a lot of Chinese based upon what we were talking about before?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, interestingly, not that many. There are some legacy Chinese people who have lived in Panama for years. They grew up here for generations. And you don't see... the the racial tensions here at all that you see in the u.s you know you just don't see it you don't see it you don't feel it and i think that's one thing when people come from the u.s it's a bit of a relief because people are just people

SPEAKER_03:

south americans

SPEAKER_00:

sure of course yeah

SPEAKER_03:

yeah i can imagine

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

So what's the government? It's a democracy. It's stable. It's always been that way.

SPEAKER_00:

Very

SPEAKER_02:

safe country.

SPEAKER_00:

Very safe country. It's the same as the U.S. So there's a president, a Supreme Court, and then there's the Senate. It is very safe. Most of the crime that happens does not happen in the tourist areas. So I feel safer here than I did in Dallas. I can go walking. If I want to go to the fun area of town and be out at two in the morning, you don't feel unsafe. You feel very safe going from place to place.

SPEAKER_02:

And what's the secret? Why is Panama and, frankly, Costa Rica so successful as a stable political climate, safe, tourist-friendly, they like America, whereas some of the other Central American countries have gotten a bad rap? And if I told my wife, hey, let's go to Nicaragua on vacation, she'd look at me like, what are you, kidding me?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I think there's a lot of things because of Panama's history with Noriega, the drug laws here are very, they're serious. You know, so you, like, we don't know anyone who does drugs. Like, you just don't hear of it. No one here smokes because a lot of the population can't afford it. So whenever you see somebody smoking, you know that they're a tourist. You don't see a lot of people, a lot of the locals, you don't see them drinking. It's a very family-oriented Catholic culture, and it's not like an in-your-face Catholic culture, so it's very respectful. But I think it's respectful in all the best ways. So between the drug laws and the fact, you know, one interesting thing that happened was during COVID-19, when people were told not to go to work. A lot of people here live on the edge. They live hand to mouth. And I was worried for the first time that there was going to be some sort of violence because you take poor people, you take away their ability to earn money and what do you expect? And I was so shocked because there was nothing. And I was talking to a friend of mine from India And she said that a lot of time Indians are the same way. They're just content sitting in their hammock. They've got a rooster or chicken or two for the eggs. They grow their own vegetables. And because there are peaceful people at heart, they're just content with that simplicity. And literally, there was no violence. So that was, I think, a turning point for me, a turning point in a good way. I think probably up until that time, I thought, oh, I'm going to stay in Panama for a certain amount of time, and then I'm going to take my next adventure. But when I felt that level of safety, and this is the worst thing that could possibly happen, and people, and there's no civil unrest, that's when I was like, you know, I can settle in here. I can be happy here.

SPEAKER_02:

That's great. I've been looking at, I've been shopping for expensive properties. This show appeals to a wealthy clientele. And I've been looking and I've been noticing that I can buy a big... piece of waterfront land for$15 million or$30 million. I mean, this is pretty exciting right here. Look at that. I get a whole beach

SPEAKER_03:

and I get all

SPEAKER_02:

of this. If

SPEAKER_03:

I bought that for$31 million, could I get a developer and develop a whole resort there?

SPEAKER_00:

You absolutely could. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02:

John? Absolutely. I don't know why the Ritz and the Four Seasons aren't there already. I mean, look at this. This is amazing.

SPEAKER_03:

Where is that in geography? What is it called? Cambutal?

SPEAKER_02:

CAMBUTAL. Los Santos province.

SPEAKER_00:

OK, Los Santos. That is from Panama City. That is six, seven hours away. It's pretty remote. You do have people, for example, like the heir to Estee Lauder lives near there. But again, you're not gonna have a lot of neighbors, but something like that, that's what it's waiting for because all the development is happening in and around Panama City because no one wants to invest the money to do what needs to be done. Aside from the area, you'd need roads and infrastructure, but if you've got the appetite, it could be amazing. For the first time in the last couple of years, there's an area called Bocas del Toro which is on the Caribbean side north, so near Costa Rica, on the Caribbean. And so for the first time that was, and it used to be just backpackers and hostels and no place that any of us would want to really spend any time. Where here? Yeah, Bocas.

SPEAKER_02:

Go north?

SPEAKER_00:

So you're going to go almost to Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, you got

SPEAKER_00:

to go left. Yeah, you have to go way to Costa Rica.

SPEAKER_03:

Okay. Right in there. Right

SPEAKER_02:

in here?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Oh,

SPEAKER_02:

focus. There it is. Focus.

SPEAKER_00:

For the first time, there are now two five-star hotels there now. One of them is the Overwater Huts, and those are about$1,000 a night. The other one is... just a normal five-star that is, I don't know, five, six,$700 a night. And what we found, I'm friends with a hotelier in Casco Viejo, which is old town, which is like 15 minutes from me. And he says, he loves the fact that we now have those high-end hotels in focus because people will fly in. They'll spend a couple nights on the front end at his hotel and then they'll go to Bocas, then they'll fly back to Panama City, spend a couple more nights at his hotel, and then go home. So everything good that happens is good for the entire country.

SPEAKER_03:

But so the people fly from Panama City to there?

SPEAKER_00:

That's correct, yes. Or from

SPEAKER_03:

San Jose.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, they could, yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

And while we're on that side of the country, near Costa Rica, there's a little mountain town called Boquete. And Boquete is where I was talking about that has year-round spring weather. It's literally in the 70s all year long. Everything's green. Everything's lush. They grow coffee there, some of the best coffee in the world. Geisha Coffee got on the map because of Boquete, and it will sell for over$1,000 a pound. But in the past year, it sold for over$2,000 a pound. So that's also come from this tiny little country.

SPEAKER_02:

And is this winding road a mountain road?

SPEAKER_00:

It is, and it's something that I would not drive. You have to have a four-wheel drive, and I personally would not do it.

SPEAKER_02:

And this is the coffee region?

SPEAKER_00:

So you're, I think you're still on the Boca side. You have to go back to Boquete. Yeah, you're on the Boca side. So you have to go to the Pacific Ocean side.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, okay. Yeah. Oh, Boca Chica right here?

SPEAKER_00:

No. So you're going to go up.

SPEAKER_02:

What does up mean?

SPEAKER_00:

Type in Boquete.

SPEAKER_02:

How do you spell that?

SPEAKER_00:

B-O-Q-U-E-T-E. B-O-Q-U-E-T-E. Boquete.

SPEAKER_02:

Boquete. Okay. Right there. In the interior.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. It's in the interior, but it's a self-contained town. There are a lot of expats. If you look at the three regions in Panama where there are a lot of expats, it's going to be Panama City, of course. Coronado area, and then Boquete.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow. Right in the middle of the jungle.

SPEAKER_00:

Right in the middle of jungle. And it's a, it's a beautiful little town. You know, they have restaurants, they have, it's not a big town, it's a town, but they do have some nice things there. You can get a property there. You know, three,$400,000, you know, If you want something, the same developer that was doing Generation Tower and Costa del Este is also doing something similar in Boquete where they will have a medical facility on site and panic buttons. So if somebody likes that weather, they want to be a little bit further from the city and want something in like the$350,000 range, there's a development that will be brand new and it will be done by the end of the year.

SPEAKER_02:

So that looks like the whole town right there.

SPEAKER_00:

That is the whole town. It's, you know, it's small. It's a town.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

But they probably, you know, they probably have, I don't know, a dozen or so good restaurants. Some good golf courses.

SPEAKER_02:

I bet there's some good fly fishing on that river.

SPEAKER_00:

Fred, they right there, they catch trout and most of the restaurants serve it. And the trout is so delicious.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I'll bet. Wow. I mean, if that's what you're into, and certainly the American West has been discovered and fished over, this might be just a ticket for some people watching this show.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow. There are also some high-end properties there. I've also got properties in the million-dollar range there, but there's a little bit of everything. The expat community mostly speaks English.

SPEAKER_02:

This has been tremendous. Can you give us, can we wrap up with a view into your crystal ball? I mean, what's going to happen for the next couple of years where a lot of people are talking about a tremendous amount of optimism over the last couple of months, a boost in the real estate sales, a boost in the optimism. It sounds like you're feeling this in Panama.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes, and I'm very bullish on Panama right now for a couple of reasons. You know, for any market, there has to be a catalyst. whether up or down. Panama's done a couple things recently that is that catalyst. So for example, we just finished the second terminal at the airport, which has doubled the number of tourists. We just finished a cruise terminal that can process two mega ships and 10,000 people a day. The Panama Tourism Authority says that year over year, this year to next year, that tourism is going to triple I see it. I'm seeing the increase of people. What happens when you get so many new people experiencing something and being shocked by it over the course of a certain amount of time, may not be in one year, but over one or two or three years, I think we're really going to see the market explode. And I'm so excited to be in the heart of it.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, we all know who to call. Melissa Darnay. And the company is called

SPEAKER_00:

Choose

SPEAKER_02:

Panel. She's

SPEAKER_00:

panama.com. I have a free book. It's a free e-book. It's super easy reading. If somebody wants to get it, just go to my website and request it. I also have a podcast. We do two podcasts a week where we're not talking so much about individual properties, but we're talking about lifestyle. What is it like to live here, go to the hospital here, go grocery shopping here? What is it like to make friends here? So the softer side of Panama.

SPEAKER_02:

Very

SPEAKER_00:

impressive. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Sounds like you could do a lot of homework right there on your site, ChoosePanama.com.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_02:

Before giving you a call and picking a property.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes. And if you need any help, of course, we'd love to help you. We are the only VIP company in Panama, so we will pick you up in a luxury car, take great care of you.

SPEAKER_02:

Sign me up. This has been great. Thank you so much, Melissa. You're

SPEAKER_00:

so welcome. It's been so much fun. Thank you so much, Melissa. I

SPEAKER_02:

really appreciate it. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00:

Okay. Bye.

SPEAKER_03:

Bye, everybody.

People on this episode

Head Shot

John Engel

Host
Head Shot

Roberto Cabrera

Host