Boroughs & Burbs 188 || Outdoor Spaces

In Episode #188 of Boroughs & Burbs, we’re stepping outside—literally—with award-winning interior designer Amy Andrews to explore the evolving world of outdoor living spaces. From rooftop terraces to luxury poolside lounges, Amy shares how outdoor design has become just as important as interiors in today’s homes. We’ll talk about creating functional, beautiful exteriors that feel like true extensions of the home, what materials and layouts are trending in 2025, and how climate, lifestyle, and architecture shape outdoor design. Whether you’re an agent, architect, or homeowner, Amy’s expertise will help you rethink the potential of your backyard, patio, or balcony. Join us as we blur the lines between indoors and out—and elevate how we live, entertain, and connect with nature.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:00

The Burroughs are New York City. The Burbs are everywhere else. Real estate is the ultimate game of risk and reward. It's the biggest investment most people ever make. Fortunes are made over a lifetime and lost in a day. And we're not playing with monopoly money. How do you stay ahead? Who's buying? Who's selling? And why? What do they know? We want the truth. You need an edge. Burroughs& Burbs is your secret weapon, giving you the insider knowledge and strategies you need to succeed in the high Welcome everybody, Burrows and Burbs, Season 5, Episode 188,

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Outdoor Spaces. I'm your host, John Engel, and I'm joined by my co-host, Roberto

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Cabrera. Where are you? I am on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. How are you?

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Center of the known universe, Manhattan. It's coming back, baby. It's coming back. Today, our very special guest, Amy Andrews from Amy Andrews Interior Design in Greenwich, Connecticut. Hello, Amy.

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Hello, John and Roberto.

UNKNOWN: 1:25

Hello.

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Very

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excited to have this. This is one of my favorite subjects of the year. I mean, of course, in early June, everybody is into their outdoor spaces. I mean, what a better time of year to be talking about outdoor spaces and how much joy they bring us. And I have to say, I showed a house yesterday, new listing, four and a half million dollars. And people came into the house and they said, I really came to see the gardens. I wanna see the gardens. Can we just start with the gardens? And so it occurred to me, it's becoming an outsized amenity, outsized importance. And that's why it's important to have this show. So welcome, Amy.

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Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

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Tell us about yourself. Where are you and where do you work?

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I have a studio on Greenwich Avenue. And I live in Old Greenwich, and I have been here for a long time, both working in town and living in town. I grew up here, partly in Louisville, Kentucky, but mostly here, a little stint in California. You know, we are a full-service design firm. I design... all over the country and a little bit of out of the country. And we love any kind of project that's gonna bring us a challenge and something new. We don't have a

SPEAKER_02: 2:55

set style. I think that's overstating it, Amy. I think you're overstating it. I looked at your portfolio and it would seem that you only work in places that begin with an M. Manhattan, Montecito, Montana, Martha's Vineyard. I mean, I may be leaving out

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of- You missed Montauk.

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Okay, and Montauk, Montauk. I'm going to hit share right now and show everybody. This is your website, Amy Andrews Interior Design. And when I go to, let's see if I can find it, the portfolio page. Yep, there we are. California Casita, Yellowstone Club. That's really short for Montana. Modern Greenwich, Central Park West Residence, Classic Connecticut Waterfront. cape cod martha's vineyard the main house the guest house montecito beachfront i mean it is and and bronxville bronxville where you know a quarter acre is a big deal and you got to make every inch of bronxville has to count bronxville guest studio i mean that's pretty grand that's That's grand in Bronxville, Bronxville being great outside. The

SPEAKER_03: 4:10

Bronxville project was a really special project because if you see the traditional part, they first owned the traditional home and that was their real family home. And what they did is they bought a property that was adjacent to it. That was part of the original property. And so then they rented it out. And when they were ready, they built the guest house. So the guest house and the garage and the guest studio, oh, that's the little studio above the garage. It's so fun. And then they were able to put the pool in the middle, but that is certainly maximized. I worked with Chuck Hilton and Renee Byers on that project. And there wasn't a space left untouched.

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You do get around, don't you?

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Yeah, I try. I hope, you know.

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Just curious. I mean. We're

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looking for that next place to go.

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These clients that are in Martha's Vineyard and in California and all these different places, are these clients that are here and have houses there or?

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Well, you know, Martha's Vineyard is luckily one of my dearest friends. oldest friend. So that was like a real passion project and, you know, got to do a house that really, really reflects her and her family. And we had a great time doing it. And I, that's a Patrick Ahern project. But we were, you know, he did the shell and we were able to go in and you know, we did all the stone and we redid the kitchen layout and the bathrooms and did stuff like that in that project. And I was just there last weekend. And it's really, I have to tell you, spectacular, but they live in London. So this is their, they're American, but this is their, they've been gone for a long time. And this is their real home base.

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Do you use the same photographer for all of these? Just curious. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03: 6:17

um some of them yes i had this this was um all like the vineyard bronxville they were the same photographer

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i'm going to ask about the time of day with the light the way it's coming in it's

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incredible we got lucky with the weather in the vineyard at this photo shoot

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i want to ask about this photo because i can see that we're on where this is a rugged environment. I mean, there's salt spray, there's ocean is right there where you can touch it. And I would imagine that it's a very ecologically sensitive area where you can't just do whatever you want. You have

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ecological

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considerations here. You can't just plant any plant.

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Yeah, they had some serious setbacks, obviously. They're... there's a specific footprint that they could be in. So, you know, you'll see that this, the back of the house faces the water and then the front of the house becomes a courtyard to where the garage is, which I think you'll see if you go to the pool area. And most of the house was maximized to take the views in. Like this is the master suite, master bath. So they have this gorgeous terrace, again, you know, in your whole indoor outdoor living. You can go sit out there in the morning. Yeah. Children's rooms. Funny enough, this room has the best view of the, the bathroom of this bedroom has the best view.

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I think what's interesting is that the outdoor spaces are a focal point of every photograph. My eye is drawn to the window and you know, what kind of a view. I'm getting whether it's ocean or lawn or vegetation. I mean, really interesting range of views, but certainly the view is always a focal point of the photograph.

SPEAKER_03: 8:20

Yeah. And you know, when people buy homes, I find, and I'm sure you probably find this as well. I mean, that goes out to a, I don't have the picture and my portfolio, but this goes out to a gorgeous green porch. This is used, you know, breakfast, lunch, dinner, happy hour, reading the paper, you know, somebody working with their laptop, that circular. And then this, so this is the front of the house that faces back to the pool. And then the carriage house, which has like a cabana in it in one bay of the garage. And then the guest house is above that. So it's sort of a nice little compound. And then obviously, they kept some green. So if they want to have a catch or kids running around on the water side, there was more green. And then here was more for activities and swimming and entertaining. And it's just beautiful. And I'm not saying it's just beautiful because I was part of the project, but I was there the other night. And they've since added down at the bottom a fire pit. So they're really using this. And they're starting to live there a little bit more year round because they're empty nesters. Can

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we contrast this to, there was a place, I think it was in Montecito or something that we saw that looked totally different.

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Yeah.

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So

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now that we've gotten a little bit of taste of what it is you do, I really want to focus on that first question I sent you, which is how is it evolving? How is the role of the outdoor living space evolving, especially since the pandemic? I suspect that in Manhattan, we're going to get one answer from Roberto and on your Manhattan projects and maybe second homes Maybe I'll get a different answer, but I'll let you answer first.

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Me or Roberta?

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No, you're my special guest.

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Oh, I'm the special guest. Oh, thank you. Well, I've always designed... I mean, I like that indoor-outdoor living. I grew up with that indoor-outdoor living, you know, having a sitting area and a dining area outside. I have, you can see out here, I mean, I have an older home with a big... you know, front porch that I just love. And it's covered in pots and plants and a couple of chairs to watch the world go by, you know, but I, most of my jobs tend to be, unless it's like a small Manhattan apartment, you know, tend to have that indoor outdoor flow. I've always found it very important. However, you know, it's obvious there's been a huge trend in, and a huge trend in marketing with everybody having outdoor furniture lines and accessories. And, you know, I think it started out with when we were all stuck at home, you know, whether you had a family at home or you wanted family to come and be able to visit you, people created spaces outside, you know, whether they, one of my friends had like a table in the middle and then you either brought your own beach chair, she had some Adirondack chairs, and then she would have individual bags of chips. So it was all like cans of soda or individual wine. So everything was friendly and safe for the pandemic. But I think from there, I think people got used to living outside and having that extension of their home and really enjoying it. And, you know, the retail market of it has just taken off. The marketing you see from, you know, West Elm and Pottery Barn and Front Gate and all of those, they have every year just a whole catalog of Robert,

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can you put a number on it in New York? What is the value? What's the addition of value when we say, oh, this place comes with a balcony, a Juliet balcony, a large balcony, access to outdoor space on the roof? How important, how valuable are outdoor amenities generally, or can you be more specific?

SPEAKER_01: 12:54

Well, in New York, not all outdoor spaces are made the same, right? Some are on the roof, some are like through a bedroom. Ideally you have one that's right off of the living room, but not necessarily in your view because in the winter time, it's sitting out there with furniture covered and it's actually quite ugly. So, you know, they're not all made the same and they're all valued differently. Some people, they absolutely on their checklist is I want outdoor space. So that's extremely important. A lot of other people, they're like, I live in New York. I don't care. I don't want outdoor space. I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to pay for it. Typically, as far as a value, I mean, a lot of people would say it's worth, half the price per square foot that the regular part of the apartment would be. There's been a lot of

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studies. Jonathan Miller

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has done shows on pricing outdoor space. It's very tricky because they're not all made the same.

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Do you think somebody would rather have a view of Central Park or be one block in and have A rooftop deck or outdoor space. Is it becoming more important to look at outdoor space, beautiful greenery of the park, or is it important to use it? Two different buyers.

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Two different people. So I'll

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know it when I see it?

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Yes, preference though. But if you have a view of the park or something like that, you're most likely on Central Park West or Fifth or something like that, and that's a completely different buyer than being... in the block and perhaps maybe being in a townhouse that has a roof terrace or something like that. It's just different, very different people.

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How about you,

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Amy? You work in Manhattan, right?

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Yeah, and I have,

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you know, I have the run the gamut. I have two clients that are on Central Park West and for one, it's the view, you know, that's a pad, like a pied-de-terre, but they got a great view of, And it's just, in the fall in particular, it's just

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spectacular. The view becomes part of the art of the apartment, right? Right, so like the whole

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living room is based on the view. I have somebody else that was in, further down in Central Park West, and they thought they wanted to be on a higher floor, but then... they got the right apartments. They were on a little floor, but they're in the trees, you know, and they look on like, you know, a children's park and that's a home. So it was convenient for them and they got a bigger space. But I was saying earlier, I have a young client, young couple, and they're in a full amenity building. They don't have a terrace, but they have the roof terrace and they have the grills and the table where they can either meet up with their neighbors or they can have their friends over. And then I have a client that has a townhouse in Brooklyn where they have a roof deck and they have like a small backyard area.

SPEAKER_01: 15:56

So- Have you ever worked on a buildings like roof terrace? Because some build, you know, most buildings, you know, it's like a share. There's a committee of shareholders, you know, and they're like, oh, we're on the garden committee. And it's like, I wish you weren't on the garden committee because it's horrible. Have you ever been approached by a building and said, look, can you come and, you know, we're willing to invest to really make this nice?

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Not yet, but I would. I would love to do that.

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My daughter has a new apartment, is renting down in Hell's Kitchen. And that was one of the major features that they considered was access to the roof deck where you could grill. And we, for I think it was Mother's Day, they reserved the roof deck and we grilled hamburgers on the roof deck. And that was a major big deal to be able to throw a party for 10, 12 people on the roof and, you know, lounge about. In the center of the universe. Yeah. And it's funny. We stand there and we look around at all the other buildings and we say, ours is better than that one. Oh, look, they have a pool. Oh, they've got a swimming pool. And so there's a little bit of envy going on. They've got better roof space than we do.

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Yeah. How do you approach the city? Because it's really, they're not all made the same. Yeah. I mean, I guess it's impossible question to ask or answer, but how do you approach like an outdoor space? Let's say it's actually a beautiful terrace. It's not a balcony. It's not facing a wall. It literally is a space. It's perhaps, you know, 15 by 20 or something and you can really utilize it. Like what's the, how do you approach that?

SPEAKER_03: 17:39

Well, I had one, you know, a while back. Obviously it was in the River House, so it was gorgeous. But we definitely, you know, we put dining out there so that they could have an extension, you know, to enjoy nice weather, you know, some seating, we definitely put up some greens and had it, you know, feel they, you know, that it was this real outdoor oasis for them, whether they're just out there to have coffee or they're going to have a dinner party, or they're just, you know, out there, you know.

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So planting, for example, plant plantings, like to, to sense shrubbery or greenery is important.

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Yeah, for me, it's very important. I think it's a huge factor because I think it takes, you know, you can just put out gorgeous furniture and some colorful pillows and call it a day, but you put up a couple of plants or even if you have something that's like an evergreen that's going to last all year around. And, you know, it just adds another element. It adds another layer. of, you know, personalizing it and, you know, creating a true outdoor space because you, you know, especially in the city, I think you kind of feel, I mean, people utilize the parks in the city and, you know, I think people utilize the parks more and more even in the suburbs and Connecticut, I notice. But I think it's really nice to have that. And as you were saying, you look out from your apartment and it's nice to see that. You know, and it's also can become a little bit of a barricade between you and your neighbors or you and the person whose window looks on your terrace.

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Sure.

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I learned that long ago, personally. A neighbor was like, we saw you and your friends out there. It looks like you're having a good time late at night. I was like, oh.

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You're thinking,

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what night was that? Luckily, that was a long time ago.

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So how's it changing? I'm gonna give you an example. 10 years ago, a pool added zero value to the homes in New Canaan, Greenwich, I know that's an overgeneralization, but pools generally did not, I couldn't add more to the price of a house I was asking because it had a pool. Maybe it was the wrong pool, the wrong location, they didn't value it for whatever reason. That changed with COVID and pools suddenly added tremendous value and became very high on a lot of people's list. What else has changed? Do you agree with that? And what else has changed since COVID, such as the building of pools?

SPEAKER_03: 20:26

Well, I just like I said, I spoke with somebody and he said, we're going back to more traditional pools, square pools, pools that have spas attached to them. You know, it's getting warmer with COVID. climate change here. So people are keeping their pools open to.

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I don't get the spa craze personally. I'm just going to put it out there. I get the rectangle pool part because you can put in a track and you can put it.

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Well, that's the, that's the biggest trend is the wreck, you know, not the free form pools and not the, you know, exotic pools that have, you know, bathing areas and beautiful steps or rocks, but the rectangular pools, he told me are the most popular with the safety cover. Like he said, that's all he's doing. He will do spas attached to them. He said he's doing less. It's funny because he said he's doing less spas that are part of the house or part of the wellness, but I see that more. So it's just, I think it's personal preference.

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I think lighting design on those outdoor spaces is also way up because now we have LED and electronics that can basically set the mood.

SPEAKER_03: 21:42

A hundred percent. And I think too, what, if you have good exterior lighting, whether it's in your plantings or lighting your home or lighting your pool, or even adding, you know, outdoor lights are the ones that touch and glow, or, you know, just even if people did add tiki torches and lanterns and candles, it sets an ambience and it really makes it, you know, so you have a daytime in your pool, but then you have this glorious place to look out on. that's soothing and comfortable. And I think people there's, you know, for a while people were like, well, you know, we may have another pandemic and, you know, we might have to be home again. So people have set up their homes to be there and to maybe they went ahead and built that pool because they always wanted it. But now it's like, okay, well, we might. Can I ask

SPEAKER_01: 22:37

about the correlation? Like John, you said it wouldn't add that much value.

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Yeah, I was shocked when you said that.

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But is it because, I mean, this is what I heard. We bought a house out east that has a pool, so I didn't think about it. But a friend of mine, post-COVID, wanted to put in a pool. And he said, first of all, there was a rating list. They couldn't get it done. But also, my understanding is putting in a pool used to be like$30,000. And now it's like$150,000. I was going to say, it

SPEAKER_03: 23:07

used to be$60,000. Now it's like... Well, also, but people are not just putting in their pool. Like, you know, especially out east, and I would say sometimes around Connecticut, it was just a pretty pool with a little coping. You know, maybe there was a spot for a chasm.

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And it would be lined by grass.

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Yeah. I don't love that because the grass gets in the pool, but that's me. I agree. But now, you know, the pools are...

SPEAKER_02: 23:33

Amy, you need a new landscaper, right? We can keep the grass out of the pool.

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Well, you know, when you've got kids that run out and then jump in and then run back, you know...

SPEAKER_01: 23:45

So, John, but isn't that part of the case? So now you can say, look, this house has a pool. You don't have to go through that expense, you know? So that is a luxury piece, right?

SPEAKER_02: 23:55

okay we bought a house 20 years ago and it came with a 1950s wagner pool and we scratched our heads and we said are we pool people i don't know we've got these little babies uh you know and and we've never had a pool and it's going to cost us at the time is gonna cost us 15,$20,000 to put in that cover. We're gonna have to have it resurfaced. We're gonna have to buy a new heater for$3,000 every three years. And we're gonna have to work on the plumbing, the old plumbing. And so it was starting to look at the time to recondition an old pool, maybe for a$50,000 commitment. And we really had to say, are we gonna use this pool when we're at that baby's stage our lives. Will we be throwing pool parties? It was kind of a commitment. We did it at a time where I don't know that we would have paid an extra$50,000 for that old pool. We were seriously thinking at the time of filling it in. And many of my peers, people my age, filled in their pools. Absolutely. And it's going to add a commitment. You have to pay somebody to clean it and add chemicals each week. So you had to make a commitment to doing that. And some of us were on the fence. Since COVID now, I see a lot of$150,000,$250,000 pools going in because the covers got better, the lighting got better, sound systems, and of course, the revaluing of outdoor space since COVID.

SPEAKER_01: 25:41

See, this reminds me a little bit of townhouses in the city. So townhouse, you know, they never had elevators. And now... When you have a townhouse buyer, it's like townhouse, townhouse, townhouse. That one doesn't have an elevator. It's that thing that they all are trying to start having. If you're looking for that top dollar, you gotta have an elevator. So now if you don't have the pool, it's like, well, they all have pools, yours doesn't.

SPEAKER_02: 26:08

Now I'm gonna add another one. We're gonna move off pools. You mentioned how much you value that porch over your left shoulder. I'm going to say that porches are back in fashion. For a long time, I'm on planning and zoning board, and in New Canaan for a while, everybody was maxing out their coverage in Greenwich and in New Canaan places and making their houses bigger and not adding porches. We changed our zoning regulations to exempt porches from coverage because we wanted to encourage more porch coverage. building, porch living. We said, don't not build a porch because it counts against your coverage. I don't know if the same thing is true in Greenwich, where they measure far instead of coverage. But at any rate, we encouraged it. And we were starting to see a lot more porch building in the last 10 years for houses that are being designed and going up now. And since COVID, we're seeing a lot more people using their porches and having porch parties. And so talk about how you use your porch Do you go out there and have coffee every morning on your porch?

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Well, usually I'm like flying out the door, so I don't. I do like to enjoy, you know, I do like to sit outside and I do, you know, just sort of... How

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about screens on the windows? Are they coming back? I mean, for a long time, everybody just talked about having, you know, double glazed windows, but now I'm

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starting to see... It's so funny

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because I...

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personally just had to redo all my HVAC. And I always was somebody who, I mean, I opened and closed my windows. I have French doors with screens. I think people don't like to look through the screens. So I see a lot of homes and I've designed multiple homes that we put in the pull-down screens and this and that. But I think as times have changed, I think people open their windows less and less. because they just literally go from heat to AC. And I, you know, in New York and Connecticut here, we were going from heat to AC to heat to AC.

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But now we're talking about air quality and it's being measured and it's coming out on my iWatch and my iPhone are all talking about air quality all the time. So there's a new found interest in getting fresh air into the home and the HVAC systems are adding these fresh air exchangers. Whereas in the old days, Guys like, you know, Roberto would just open up the window and have, you know, there'd be a screen. And he'd yell down to the kids playing stickball in the street, hey, come on up, it's time for dinner. You know, the old-fashioned way of living in New York. Right, Roberto? That's right. Just yelling through the screen.

SPEAKER_03: 28:53

Yeah, no, you know, I find a little bit of both. You know, I... you know, I was just up in the house in Martha's Vineyard and she had the AC going and the doors open. So, you know, like, you know, but like she'd open them up in the morning when it's cool. And then, you know,

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close them up. Do people, do people request the old screen door that, you know, cause that love to hear that, that slamming of the green door. Does anybody request

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that? I have them. I had custom ones built.

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I have them. I love my screen doors. It's such a sense of, you know, that's just, it creates the whole

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environment. You know, I have the, you know, I have new ones that were made, but I have the glass that, you know, for the storm door. And then I have the screen doors that just went in, you know, a month or so ago. Do

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they

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slam? No, because they're wood. They slam the same. None of those heavy metal ones.

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I know.

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You know, I think it's just dependent upon... how you live and how the family lives. I have clients that live on the water and they have gorgeous windows and gorgeous outdoor areas, but they don't really open their windows. I think if they want to be fresh air, they go outside. They have a screened in porch. Also, I think people are conscious of bugs. Here we get the mosquitoes. flies or bees or, you know, whatever it may be. But, you know, I do know people that, you know, like myself that open the windows and.

SPEAKER_01: 30:34

So that's a question for you. You see a lot of these beautiful architectural designs, big sliding glass doors along the entire back of the house that can completely open to the exterior. And there are no screens or I mean, like it's beautiful and the idea of it is great, but the number of flies and stuff that would literally come into your environment when you close all that at night, you'd be like, wow, that was a bad idea.

SPEAKER_03: 31:03

I feel like, well, for here, I did a project in Riverside where we did the nano doors that came off like, you know, it was a kitchen great room and it opened onto a screen porch that had, you know, it was fully set up for like, a bar and dining and stuff. So that made sense, right? You're not getting, and they're, you know, they're on the river. So this beautiful setting, but it's buggy. So they had the screens. You know, the nano doors, if you're in California where it's drier, Arizona, where, you know, you get less of that sort of mosquito kind of, you know, environment, then I think the nano doors work, you know, especially if you're opening, you know, if you're like in a Santa Monica or somewhere where you have a smaller footprint and the nano doors really become part of your lifestyle. Tell

SPEAKER_02: 32:05

us about this one. This is on your website. This is the hilltop, right?

SPEAKER_03: 32:09

Yes. This is a great house.

SPEAKER_02: 32:11

Where is this?

SPEAKER_03: 32:12

This is in the hills in Montecito. So it has an amazing ocean view, but they have the beauty of being up in the hills. And so the beauty of this house, because they had a house on the beach. And, you know, in California, you get a lot of the May gray and the June gloom. And in the winter, it's sort of foggy and cold. So up here in the hills, you get a lot of like here, the doors are open to the garden. It's, you know, you get more sun all year round. It's drier. You know, you don't get that. You get some coastal fog, but not like you do when you're down on the beach. But everything in this house opens up to the outdoors. You can take the outdoors back into the indoors, you know. And that's a whole, you know, tradition. There's that sort of California ranch, you style home where, you know, the outdoor living was part of the indoor living. And, you know, you went from outside to inside, you know, you went outside to get to the other side of your house. So this house is very much utilized. It's a different footprint, but it's very much utilized like that.

SPEAKER_02: 33:28

It looks like low maintenance, right? It looks like everything's a perennial, native grasses, native trees. It doesn't look like a lot of maintenance and it doesn't look like I've got to go water it or trim or mow every week. Is that deceiving or is that

SPEAKER_03: 33:49

accurate? I think it's somewhat accurate. I think that this house is actually getting ready to be totally different. It's in the mass. It's been taken down to the studs and the pool is no longer going to be where the pool is.

SPEAKER_01: 34:08

Will the facade look the same?

SPEAKER_03: 34:10

Yeah, it's the same footprint, but the facade will be a little bit less adobe and sort of squared off corners and rounded corners and instead of awnings, pergolas and things like that. But yes, whoever had done the original work planting most is indigenous to the area.

SPEAKER_01: 34:30

And so- And is the low maintenance aspect of that intentional?

SPEAKER_03: 34:36

Yes, I think so. And I think what they're doing and what they have done is taken out things that weren't quite right and put in more that are, that there's not a lot of water and you get restricted on how much water you can use in California. So they have more olive trees and, you know, more cacti and different, you know, flowers and things that bloom continually. But

SPEAKER_02: 35:09

I've raised the question. In a

SPEAKER_03: 35:11

minute, you can get cut off for your water.

SPEAKER_02: 35:13

I think that there's I know some people who are paying$10,000 a month to maintain the property between spring cleanup, fall cleanup, you know, of leaves, right? How many

SPEAKER_01: 35:53

acres are you talking

SPEAKER_02: 35:54

about? So, I'm talking about a typical... You go ahead.

SPEAKER_03: 36:00

$10,000

SPEAKER_02: 36:03

a month sounds steep. I know two-acre properties in the two-acre zone and four-acre properties in New Canaan and Greenwich that absolutely can spend$10,000 a month. And they've got containers all around the pool area. And they've got to get basically remade each year. And extensive gardens, extensive lawns. Absolutely, you can get to$10,000 quite

SPEAKER_03: 36:32

easily. Yeah, you know... it's, you know, probably higher in the summer, but you know, you want some evergreen, you know, you want that balance in Connecticut. You want that balance of stuff that's going to be around all year round, you know, where it's some evergreens and different things, but then you have your annuals and your perennials and, you know, like my peony, they just, you know, bloomed and they're gone and now they all need to be cut back. Well, you know, I'm fine to do it myself, but I'm not going to, be able to do that this week. So I'm going to have to pay, you know, my rose bushes, I was away. So my rose bushes all bloomed and now they need to be pruned again so that they keep blooming and, you know, there's mulch and then we have the rain. So now, you know, we got to fill in mulch and spots. So yeah, I can imagine that people spend that much money and it depends on who you're hiring, you know, and some people really enjoy doing it themselves and that's a way, but yes. I think that's something to consider. Like you were saying, your clients want to see the gardens. Like unless you're a real hands-on gardener, it's something to consider as far as maintenance. But it also enhances the beauty of your home and it enhances that whole transition of inside, outside. Like you look out and it's just, even if you're not living on the water and the mountains, you have something beautiful to look at. And then, you know, When you're outside, you're surrounded by beauty.

SPEAKER_02: 38:03

I'm not saying everybody spends$10,000, but I wanted to just talk about the relative. At a house where you might be paying$2,000 in taxes a month, when you start seeing a$10,000 bill on landscaping, because you've got a arborist, you've got a tree expert, you've got somebody mowing, you've got somebody else blowing, you've got to mulch those leaves or carry them away. Once you hit$10,000-

SPEAKER_03: 38:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 38:30

And somebody,

SPEAKER_03: 38:31

some of these people saying put down new grass seed, etch the lawn to, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 38:40

So these, these buyers, John, John, these buyers who wanted to see the gardens, did they seem like they were people who were experienced and understanding that I want to see the gardens because they're beautiful and I know it's going to cost me a ton of money, but I'm good with it because that's what I want.

SPEAKER_02: 38:56

The gardens yesterday that we were talking about was a 40 by 40 raised stone beds irrigated. In each of the four raised stone beds, every spring begin with 2,000 tulips. And when tulips are done, they take them out and they put in the 40 tomato plants, the cucumbers, the pumpkins, and everything else. And it's entirely transformed into an attractive entertainment garden. worthy vegetable garden, one you'd be proud of, where you can just grab that piece of spearmint and squish it into your mojito and enjoy a glass of wine in the garden, entertaining with your friends. Yeah, we're talking about a piece of art, a piece of living art And I could point around the property at the Rose of Sharon that come out white in August and the lilacs that come out and the apple trees and the cherry trees. Absolutely. There's a million dollar installation. It's quite easy to get. It is a major feature of the property.

SPEAKER_01: 40:08

You are selling the property or it's your buyer? I'm selling the property. So you don't kind of... Quiet. Now let's just say that's your buyer and they come in. Do you say, you know, that it's, you know, you got to consider what it's going to take to maintain

SPEAKER_02: 40:24

this? I do. And I say you could maintain this at a more modest level, more perennials, or you can add more container plants and you can have that pool guy every week. But if you have a cover and you keep it covered, maybe you're using less chemicals on that pool. Maybe you're having to clean it less often. So you begin to make choices. There are strategies. To answer your question, there are strategies where a buyer is going to ask their realtor, What are my options? Well, you could hire this service and 20 guys will descend on your property with leaflet, you know, backpacks for an hour or two and transform your property in the least amount of time on a Friday, ready for the weekend. Or you can have a gardener just chip away at it, you know, a couple hours each week, one guy, you know, and that's a much more modest proposition. But

SPEAKER_01: 41:21

it depends on how you value it. I'll come over and do it.

SPEAKER_02: 41:25

And some people think that they're going to mow their own lawn, but it's becoming less and less and less these days. It's tough. It's tough. I don't have any clients who mow their own lawn. We'll just put it

SPEAKER_01: 41:39

that way. I wouldn't do it either.

SPEAKER_02: 41:44

You must be making some of the same... decisions in the Hamptons, Roberto.

SPEAKER_01: 41:48

It's your summer house. We have a partner, and he comes, and he takes care of everything, and it's an expense.

SPEAKER_02: 41:53

And it's a significant one. Yeah. But it's why you go. It's why you leave New York and go to a summer place or a weekend place. It's for those outdoor spaces, the subject of Amy's expertise. So how do you design outdoor spaces for year-round usability, Amy?

SPEAKER_03: 42:13

I'm sorry. This was...

SPEAKER_02: 42:15

How are we designing spaces for year-round usability? I imagine summer, that's easy. But I imagine a lot of these places, people want to be able to use them year-round. And one of the great examples is the emergence of the fire pit, even the portable fire pit or the permanent stone fire pit that people are asking for these days. I see a lot of fire pits.

SPEAKER_03: 42:38

I know. It's so funny. I have somebody who was like, they're like, we want a fire pit. We want a fire pit. We want a fire pit. And they just had sort of done some outdoor stuff and I was like you know maybe for this summer you should just buy a fire pit you know and set it up and make sure you're going to use it because I've seen other people like build it and then it's just sort of you know it's not used um outdoors like Montana different places even California where it gets cool at night um I think you tend to use them more and that's part of your outdoor living. We've certainly found where we've added heaters and pergolas. Sorry, I have a little kitty. Let's see if you could hear him. So we try and there's so many things now to add to your outdoor living space, whether it's a heater, there's so many indoor outdoor blankets, They are the fire pits. They're the fire, you know, the cocktail table that you take the top off and it's a fire pit. So I do see a lot of that more.

SPEAKER_02: 43:50

I'm going to show you an example of the one that I'm listing right now. So this is what I mean by raised beds. This is a formal French style bed. formal garden and you see the tulips to the left and you see all the other plants dress right dress and you see the white table uh out here that you just simply hose down right no cushions or anything else just easily maintained and go out there anytime now by the way this has got an electric fence around it to keep the rabbits out and keep the wood checks chucks out this is the pool area They built this in the last 10 years. This is that original 1950s pool. And we added the retractable hidden cover. It's also got a spa to the left. Every one of these trees, that's an apple tree on the left side. This is the view from the pool house pergola. It's a 1950s pool, but redone. And that's the garden. And you see that there's a great variety of plants in this scene, it's a commitment.

SPEAKER_03: 44:59

That's a huge commitment. Not the pool, but those gardens. I

SPEAKER_02: 45:05

mean, you want, you know, and you want walkable spaces. You want, essentially the garden becomes a series of rooms and this would be, you know, one room, you know, and this is a different room. So each of these rooms has different seasons where they, where they blossom. This is what I called that Rose of Sharon. And this, this comes out in August, but you've got, you know, early season color right here. You know, in these photos taken the irises, which, you know, came out in May.

SPEAKER_03: 45:33

it looks like they're ready for their you know annual plantings too

SPEAKER_02: 45:38

right exactly are you tempted roberto if you saw something like that you'd say i want to go see that but then at a certain point you might say what's it going to cost to maintain such a house

SPEAKER_01: 45:49

yeah i'm going to waste your time and say i want to see the house i want to see the gardens but that's not for me

SPEAKER_03: 45:56

but maybe it's for somebody who always

SPEAKER_01: 45:58

dreamt of having no it's beautiful It is beautiful, and I love the way you describe it. These are different rooms.

SPEAKER_03: 46:04

That house is a huge commitment.

SPEAKER_01: 46:08

A lot, for sure. I

SPEAKER_02: 46:13

have another one I'm selling with the fire pit, so I'm going to just show it and show. This is a 1957 mid-century modern, and they added this stone fire pit right next to this You know, it's a 1957 house and it's got an older freeform pool, so it doesn't have the option of a retractable cover. But you can see it's very, you know, a lot of Japanese gardens around this, rock gardens, Japanese gardens, a lot of use of natural materials, the stone around this house. This is in the front yard, the water feature, and then this is the backyard pool and backyard fire pit. But these are the outdoor spaces that are setting this house apart. On the first day, the first three appointments made full price offers on day one on this. And mainly, you're muted, Roberto. How many acres is that? Mainly because of the outdoor spaces. How many

SPEAKER_01: 47:17

acres? This is two acres. And when did you list it? Just curious. Two, three weeks ago.

SPEAKER_03: 47:26

That's great. So the people that are making the offers, can I ask you, are they going to be full-time residents or do they have little kids or is it a summer home? like the empty nesters, the downscaling, upscaling.

SPEAKER_02: 47:43

I wrote a case study in last week's article in the paper. The first was a young couple, and they said, we have been looking for a house like this and space like this for quite some time, but younger, professional couple. The second came in was a... I would say a businessman who lived nearby and he said, I need a place single level living for my parents. And this would be perfect because it's single level living and they love to garden. And so the gardens really resonated for them. So they were interested. And then I think the third also, you know, a younger couple. So of the first three, two Two were younger, what I would say millennial couples with younger kids. But the third one was an empty nester. This is from your

SPEAKER_01: 48:31

post.

SPEAKER_02: 48:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01: 48:33

Yes. And you said couple one, couple two, couple three, whatever happened. I never saw the rest of it.

SPEAKER_02: 48:38

Who got it? The empty nester gets it. And I'm going to tell you, as a rule of thumb, never bet against the empty nester. Because the empty nester is at a stage in life where they want what they want. And they typically have built up the means to get it. And they usually don't want to overgeneralize, but many of them are giving up a large and expensive home and trading into a smaller, less expensive home. So therefore, they're only willing to compromise so far. We'll just put it at that.

SPEAKER_03: 49:17

Oh, and also they have specific deeds, like you're saying, you know, they need a first floor master suite or, you know, all one level accessibility. I

SPEAKER_02: 49:28

have empty nesters now who really treasure their outdoor spaces and their privacy on five acres in Connecticut. And they say, I'm going to have to downsize in the next few years. Can you find me, Amy? John, can you find me a condo or a small house with some nice outdoor space? And even though I don't need it now, I'm willing to buy it now and just sit on it until the day I need it because I know that it's that hard to find and that there's that much competition to go get a great condo. condo with outdoor space or a small house walkable to the downtown with great outdoor space

SPEAKER_01: 50:14

and how difficult

SPEAKER_02: 50:15

is that to find really difficult yeah there's there's 10 buyers for everyone available in fact the guy i just told you the winner who the the empty nester who got that house said, I just competed for another house and I found I was one of 11 offers. And he said, you know, I'm tired of competing with 11 people. What's it going to take? So you've got a bit of that mentality and not just him, but you've got that mentality.

SPEAKER_01: 50:50

Those are the best buyers. The people who've lost out on bidding wars multiple times are like, okay, I got to end this.

SPEAKER_03: 50:56

Yeah, I'm done.

SPEAKER_02: 51:00

Right. But you can hire somebody like Amy to take a, you know, what is a silk ear, you know, a sow's.

SPEAKER_03: 51:12

Yeah,

SPEAKER_02: 51:13

that. Amy can make it nice for you, right? You can make it nice. And do you, when they say, what's it going to take to make this nice? Do you say, I think you should allocate 20% toward the outdoor spaces?

UNKNOWN: 51:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 51:25

50% of the after spaces?

SPEAKER_03: 51:28

I will tell you, I went on an interview yesterday, and this house has an amazing pool area, but it's an older home, and it's sort of actually, ironically, a mid-century somewhat home that had been added on, so it tears on the property. And it has a fantastic pool and gardens, and then it looks out onto all this property. But, you know, it's two stories away from the kitchen. So they need a new kitchen, but part of the whole kitchen plan was creating a second outdoor terrace because if she wants to grill, you know, and they're entertaining and they have family or friends over and everybody's at the pool and there's tons of you know, different seating areas. There's a pergola for shade and, you know, chaises for the sun and dining. They're grilling and everything's down there and they're all set up. It's great. But if, you know, she wants to grill some fish and it's just the two of them, she's got to like... cross the front entry, go downstairs, go outside. So she, part of her kitchen renovation is to have a second little terrace where she can have her morning coffee or now that they're empty nesters, you know, if they want to have another couple over or just grow and sit outside themselves, have a smaller area that's convenient. So I think it's really important.

SPEAKER_02: 52:57

I think you're 100% right. I've seen for many years, people think nothing of dropping$200,000 on a kitchen transformation. If you told them they had to spend$200,000 on the outdoor space, Historically, they would have said, what? You know, they think that the kitchen is the heart of the home and where do they spend 90% of their time? It's a kitchen family room experience. Now it's a kitchen family room outdoor experience. And as that outdoor becomes part of the kitchen, people are thinking nothing of putting another$100,000 into the outdoor space to make the kitchen even better.

SPEAKER_03: 53:32

Yeah. And it doesn't even have to be like a full outdoor kitchen. Cause you know, I've done those too. And the funniest thing is that some of those that you you've done and you see, and they're so gorgeous, like they don't, people don't use them because they're far away from their kitchen, you know? But I'd say ironically too, that I was just in Florida and I went with clients. I flew down to look at a few different places and they're more villa condo kind of places. It but like right on the beach. So we went to see one that had been renovated and this couple were nice enough to let us in. And she said, she sits out there and she definitely uses it for lunch. She definitely uses it for coffee. She definitely reads her paper out there, but she doesn't use it for dinner because it's too far from the kitchen. And it's so funny. It was like the third time I've just recently heard how it's great to be outside, but it's too far from the kitchen. And they were a little older, so they didn't want to carry everything. When you're setting a full dinner, salad or starter, dinner, cocktails, water glasses, dessert, coffee, it starts to be a lot.

UNKNOWN: 54:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 54:45

I'm going to now thank our sponsors. But while I do, I want you to think of the last word. I want to hear your best advice to all these homebuyers out there who are thinking about outdoor spaces after I thank the sponsors. Ready? All right. So this has been Burrows and Burbs. And you'll find us at burrowsandburbs.com. And last week, we had Los Angeles right now. We talked about the impact of the fires on the Los Angeles market. Make sure you tune into that episode. And the Chinese market. Are the Chinese buying in Manhattan? And what's it going to take to bring them back? So those are two great episodes. You'll find us also on... YouTube, and we were surprised that one of our shows just did 121,000 views. Bersenberg's Apartment Complex Investing, 120,000 views for episode 185. That was great. AmyAndrewsInteriorDesign.com. That's where you're going to find Amy Andrews, and you can check out her entire portfolio at that website. Hilltop, California, Yellowstone. I want to thank our sponsor, GraceFarms.org. Events this week include, again, Learning with Nature, Art in Nature, and a fabulous concert coming up with Marcus Miller, saxophonist and musical director at Grace Farms. That's coming up this Saturday. Tickets, you can get them on their website for$30 a piece. And... you can find us on Facebook. And that's the beginning of the show today. So with that, I'm going to turn to you, Amy, for the last word. What advice can you give all us new homeowners who are moving out to the burbs and planning our first outdoor space?

SPEAKER_03: 56:43

Well, I think it's really important to think about the scale of your property. You know, do you have a lot of... Is there, is there something existing? Can you add to that? Is, do you have green space? Like just going back to who's living in is a young family. Do they have pets? Do you need green? Do you need grass? You know, is it an older person that just wants to entertain and sit and have that extension? I think scale is really important. I think it's, important that, you know, I address it like I address an interiors, you know, it's got to have a consistent flow. I think the more you know, your, your client, the more you can help them design a space that has that transition and that flow from indoor outdoor, I think the convenience of it, figuring out where it is, You know, you could have this great view, but if you can't access it, you might not use it. So the access to the indoor outdoor, the flow to the indoor outdoor, so it's a real extension of your home. I think that's really important. And I think like we spoke earlier, there's the footprints of whether it's a condo development or even homes is getting bigger. and green space is getting smaller.

SPEAKER_02: 58:09

And I don't think it has to be expensive. I think my wife, if you asked her, her life would be complete once we upload, uplight the trees in the backyard. That's what she wants most of all. And I think that's not that expensive, honey. We can uplight the tree. We can light up the trees.

SPEAKER_03: 58:26

Well, you can do it. I mean, you can do it from many ways. I mean, like I'm guessing you're going to have a landscape architect or, you know, uh, electrician come and wire, you know, so the trees go, but people get, you know, ones that are powered by the sun there, you know, they, they get the sun all day and then they light up at night. I do think the lighting, you know, thinking about, you know, can you go outside and, you know, if you put out you know, some guacamole and chips. Can your friends see it? You know, like, you know, the lighting is great. Adding heat, adding flowers, adding, you know, the whole gamut. Pillows to make it comfortable. Throw blankets if it's cold. You know, there's all those little touch lamps that add on. Candles, lanterns. Go for it. Create the whole environment. You know, have fun with it.

SPEAKER_02: 59:18

Have fun with it. I think that is the best advice of all. Thank you, Roberto. Another great episode. Thank you, Skipper. Always love working with you. Amy, thanks so much.

SPEAKER_03: 59:29

Well, thank you both for having me. I really enjoy this and I'm a huge fan, so.

SPEAKER_02: 59:35

Okay, us too. Us too, of you. Thank you, Amy. Thank you, Roberto. See you next week.

SPEAKER_03: 59:41

Bye, guys.