Boroughs & Burbs, the National Real Estate Conversation

Boroughs & Burbs 193 || Making Your Home Zen

• Season 5 • Episode 193

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In this calming and insightful episode #193, season 5, we explore the intersection of design, wellness, and real estate with three experts who know how to turn a home into a sanctuary. Join Deanna Hains, founder of Zen Home, as she shares how home organization, energy, and mindfulness create balance. Mike Lubin of Brown Harris Stevens offers his perspective on what luxury buyers are really seeking in peaceful, intentional living. Interior designer Katie Lydon reveals how thoughtful materials, lighting, and layout influence mood and function. Whether you're designing, staging, selling, or simply craving serenity at home, this episode is your guide to creating harmonious spaces in an increasingly chaotic world.

SPEAKER_02:

The Burroughs are New York City. The Burbs are everywhere else. Real estate is the ultimate game of risk and reward. It's the biggest investment most people ever make. Fortunes are made over a lifetime and lost in a day. And we're not playing with monopoly money. How do you stay ahead? Who's buying? Who's selling? And why? What do they know? We want the truth. You need an edge. Burroughs& Burbs is your secret weapon, giving you the insider knowledge and strategies you need to succeed in the high Welcome, everybody. Burrows and Burbs, number 193,

SPEAKER_05:

Making Your Home Zen. I'm very excited about this one. I want to begin by introducing my co-host, Roberto. Say hello. How are you? How are you, Johnny?

SPEAKER_04:

I'm good. Where are you? Where are you today? I'm on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. Yeah. Keeping cool? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

It's nice.

SPEAKER_01:

It looks beautiful.

SPEAKER_05:

It looks kind of zen. Was that what you had in

SPEAKER_04:

mind? Oh, that? Oh, that's my wife. She's zen. I'm a chaotic

SPEAKER_05:

person. And so who have we got with us today? We've got three specialists talking about making your home Zen. We've got Mike Lubin of Brown Harris Stevens who's gonna talk to us about whether people are asking for wellness features and Zen-like homes, whether that's a specific point of marketing. We're gonna talk to Katie Lydon of Katie Lydon Interiors about how to design a Zen home. And we're gonna talk to Deanna Harris Sorry, Deanna Haynes. It's wrong on my sheet. Deanna Haynes of Zen Home Cleaning about once you've got it designed and you got it the way you want it, how do you keep it that way? How do you keep it clean? Why don't we start with you, Deanna? Say hello.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello, hello, hello. And where

SPEAKER_05:

are

SPEAKER_00:

you calling in from? I am calling in from the red city of Marrakesh, Morocco.

SPEAKER_05:

Morocco, that's pretty exotic. Do you find Morocco fairly zen or is this where you get your wellness and your peace?

SPEAKER_00:

Not

SPEAKER_05:

at all. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_00:

Morocco is pretty chaotic, tons of motorbikes everywhere and 110 degree heat. So I don't necessarily, I wouldn't necessarily call that zen, but I'll take it.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay. And how long, and you have a business called Zen Home Cleaning. Tell me a little bit about Zen Home Cleaning. What do you offer?

SPEAKER_00:

So we have been, this year we've been a business for 20 years now. So we've been around the block. So Zen Home Cleaning is, it's a residential cleaning service, but a residential cleaning service with a luxury approach to it. So We're completely green, non-toxic, eco-friendly. We've always been that way. We've never used chemicals in our cleaning process. We provide all the cleaning material and we have our own cleaning product line, which we're really proud of. And we go to clients' homes and we clean their homes, but the approach is very different. I mean, of course we go in and we clean. We do an outstanding job with cleaning, but what makes us really different is a luxury approach and the aesthetic part of what we do when we're doing the cleaning. So not only do we want to make your home clean, but we want to make it visually appealing. So, and I think that's the part, that's one of the parts that make us really different. And I think a part of that comes from, you know, my degree in interior design and my love for interior design. So, you know, a place shouldn't just be clean, but everything should be in its rightful place. So, you know, we train our staff to make sure that pillows are, you know, situated aesthetically, labels are facing forward. All the aesthetics of the home are really important in what we do.

SPEAKER_04:

Mike, not just cleaning, it's organizing. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06:

So

SPEAKER_04:

let me ask you something. I've been to a lot of places that you say you don't use chemicals. They could really use some chemicals because they are bad.

SPEAKER_00:

And you're so right about that. And, you know, we're always really upfront with our clients. You know, it's, you know, we really want to stay true to our philosophy. You know, I started Zen Home recently. you know, with like my love and passion for just being conscious about everything. I've been a vegan for like over 25 years and, you know, I just don't want to have anything toxic in my home. And so, yes, there are times when we're cleaning like tile that has like mold in it and our products won't get it out. And we're really upfront with our clients about that. But we, and we know that we were upfront, we're transparent about it. you know, we just don't want to use those kinds of chemicals. So we tell clients if that's what they're looking for, we know that maybe that's not something that we can do, but in the luxury market, like, so the, the homes that we're cleaning, we're cleaning a lot of really high end homes and they are well-maintained, you know? So, you know, our products work perfectly, but you know, every now and then we have a bachelor who's never heard of the cleaning. Not a

SPEAKER_04:

bachelorette, a bachelor. Just saying.

SPEAKER_00:

We've had some bachelorettes, too. But my brother, for example, when he was a bachelor, Like, I don't even think he knew what a broom was. So when there's a lot of buildup, there's just some things that we can do. I would say 90% of the cleaning we can do, hands down. But as you did say, organizing part is very important. And we do subtle organizing. So we don't go into a client space and completely reorganize their place. We have a professional organizing service for that, but we just train our staff to make sure that, for example, when they're cleaning the bathroom And, you know, there's a soap bottle, like, I mean, a soap bottle next to the sink. The label has to be facing forward. You know, it just has to be aesthetically straight. Pillows have to be the right way. We make our beds like they do in five-star hotels. So those are the parts of the things that make us really, really different. And then something also really unusual that we do is, and this is really important when it comes to Zen. The aromatherapy of your home is really, really important. So our cleaning consultants bring, they bring an oil burner and they diffuse lemongrass, lavender, or sweet orange oils. And we provide all of this for our cleaning team. And these are 100% pure essential oils. So not only does your home smell great, and without chemicals, they're natural scents, but these have therapeutic properties to them too. So the last two hours of the appointment, we're diffusing essential oils. You can sometimes smell them outside the door. We leave a piece, we leave a thank you card and a piece of organic chocolate on the bed for our clients. And, you know, everything that we do is modeled after like a five-star hotel experience. You know, we want our clients to feel like they have a five-star hotel-like experience in the comfort of their own home.

SPEAKER_05:

Mike, Brown Harris Stevens, how are you?

SPEAKER_03:

Very well. So happy to be here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

Where are you today?

SPEAKER_03:

I'm in my office, which Roberto knows because we share, we're in the same office together. And He actually said, which is true, you know, that Mike's in his Zen office. So this topic is right up my alley. And it's something that I try to employ in my own life and very much so in business as well. So I love today's topic.

SPEAKER_05:

So what does it mean? So you're the perfect one to answer. What does it mean to be Zen? And does it mean different things for different people?

SPEAKER_03:

I think it definitely does mean different things for different people because, you The more accurate definition is meditation-oriented, and there's a deep connection to Buddhism, and there's wonderful reading on that subject. But I think, in general, people use Zen. I like to think of it as, if visiting a home or building, how does it make you feel? What is the sensory experience you're having from this environment? And as... Yeah, and I was saying that may be a fragrance. That might be a quality of natural light. But how does it make you feel? How does it, if it's a house, you know, how is that street or how does that garden? And I do think more and more. brokers and clients are thinking along those lines you know not just is the space right but how do i feel in this in this apartment and there's so many different things that we can do as professionals to encourage people in one direction or the other and things we could do as brokers to try to create an experience that is going to be more appealing to people when they come in because that's very much within our control there's no good or bad space an apartment could face a brick wall and have very limited natural light but it could have wonderful qualities to it you know and it's our job to sell the things that aren't so easy as well. So we, there's a lot that we can do. And certainly Katie could talk about that too. We have a lot of control over how does something make you feel? That's kind of how I associate Zen.

SPEAKER_04:

But the source of this, you know, I got to tell you about my, Mike is a very serene person, soft-spoken he come to, but I, I, he came to help me price something once. And it was a, it was an estate property and it was chaotic.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04:

But Mike's presence just coming into the space himself was, it changed the environment. So it really emanates from within who he is, what he does. And he also does a lot of his own personal staging and things like that. So, I mean, he's really speaking from experience. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05:

I went into this fabulous house years ago, 20 acres, New Canaan, great turn of the century mansion. And I remember the way it made me feel. Now we're talking 15 years later. I felt like there was no surface that I could put a drink on. They were all covered with things. I didn't feel like I could turn around without possibly knocking something over, maybe with my elbow. And so, as you say, Zen is not just about meditation, but it's how a space makes you feel. And it's probably all the senses. And I guess we can get there through cleaning, decluttering. You can say, well, I can sell you a new space, a better space, Or we can redesign is what I hear you say. We can redesign your space, even if it's looking at a brick wall. Katie, that's your specialty, redesigning space. Are your clients saying, I want to feel better about my space? I mean, do they come to you and say, make it blue, make it red, you know, work around my collection? Or do sometimes they say, I just want a better, I just want to de-stress. Can you give me a de-stress environment? Can you give me a Zen home? Katie?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't think I've ever been asked to deliver a Zen home specifically, but I definitely think that one, feeling Zen means different things to everybody. But I do think, particularly in Manhattan, people want to come home to an apartment that is calm, that is serene. I find that to be something that we do a lot of, where we sort of strip away the New York noise and you sort of Your apartment is the antidote. And in that way, it becomes Zen. I think we definitely use words like Zen to describe. I want a calm Zen-like room. But do you see what I mean? So to Mike's point, we're using it as an adjective or descriptive sort of way of creating an atmosphere that feels really calm and just right for the owner. And it's funny because we have, I have a, we're doing a house in Bedford at the moment, which for them, it's like this, it's on a lake. It's really beautiful. It's sun drenched, but shady. And it's, but the colors inside the house are all really strong, but they're all about the same tone. So it feels calm, even though there's this strength of color and, you know, So you can achieve sort of, you know, I often think that Zen is sort of lack of contrast as well in the right way. So you can have that sort of calming kind of a sort of range of color being sort of here rather than here that kind of creates this sort of atmosphere where it's sort of

SPEAKER_04:

feel. You're saying you did that strategically with those strong colors.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, we did in a way because, well, we know her really well. And this is our third or fourth project with her. And she really likes deep, rich plums and things like that, browns and blues. But in an effort to sort of keep it calm and modern and in a way her zen, it was keeping it sort of like monotone sounds modern. But keeping it within a certain range of tone, it had this very interesting outcome because it feels very, very calm when you walk in.

SPEAKER_05:

This is fascinating to me. I mean, what I've heard Deanna talk about is some of the tools are the smell. What I hear you talking about and emphasizing is color. Yes, I know. And for most of us, colorless... colorless is Zen. And you're suggesting that we can get to Zen, we can get to a calm place, even with vibrant colors, plum.

SPEAKER_01:

Maybe not so contrasty and vibrant, but there's a way to create calm and Zen-like atmosphere. And it doesn't always have to be white, I suppose is what I'm saying. And I think it can be, you know, the... the project that I did that's just been published in DuJour is that we could talk about, in a way, it's kind of interesting because it's very white, it's quite minimal. There's lots of sort of earthy, you know, beautiful antique wood floors, you know, a stone fireplace. It's very minimal in color, but, you know, and in a way those tones, You know, there's a calm to it and simplicity, but it's still striking. And I also think that the Zen-like thing is the decluttering and about being able to clean things. You know, sometimes when there is so much stuff, you just wonder how on earth you're going to clean it. And that feels stressful, you know?

SPEAKER_04:

Talking about having a lot of stuff, like some people can, it's almost like the difference of some people find Zen being in Idaho. Some people, they're in Idaho and they're, I got to get out of here. I got to go back to my Zen of chaotic New York. And so in a space that is too cluttered, some people can feel warm in it, but some people can feel anxiety. And just the other way around, we're in a minimalistic type situation. People feel like they're in a hospital and it makes them anxious. So how do you find that balance with the people? I

SPEAKER_01:

think you have to really understand your client and really listen. And at the beginning of a project, you really talk about, you what it is that you want to achieve. And right now I'm going through a renovation of my own and it's very different being my own client I just am the worst client don't you

SPEAKER_03:

yell at yourself

SPEAKER_01:

I just change my mind all the time do I want it to be white no do I want everything I don't know and and I can't make a decision but I but one thing I can make a decision on is this idea of like not over cluttering it wanting it to feel like my oasis our oasis the family's oasis somewhere we can all go and be you know you know, calm and talk and not be so distracted by so many things. And, and really at the end of the day, whether the room is slightly pink or slightly blue, that's for me to obsess over, but it's, it's, it, the, the end result is this atmosphere, I suppose, that you want to create, which feels, you know, kind of minimal for me that, that, you know, I realize that's, I guess in a way it's my own version of Zen, but that sort of, you know, creating this calm atmosphere that feels, you know, sort of curated as well. Like there's just not stuff everywhere. Everything is there that has a purpose and a meaning. And then in a way that goes back to the Buddhist sort of notion that you're not, there's purpose to everything in the room. It means something to you. You're not just stuffing it full of things. It just means something.

SPEAKER_05:

Are there points in, can you cluster customers out there and say that you find that they're asking for this early in life, later in life? It occurs to me that as a young man, I started to collect, right? And I got more and more and more stuff. And now I'm an old man and I want to declutter my life and I want to return to simplicity. Do you find that that's a trend that you're finding from your downsizers who want to declutter their lives and get rid of the stuff and return to what Katie's talking about?

SPEAKER_03:

I do. And I think for a lot of people, that means like how their family composition changes, because if you have kids, suddenly there's a lot of stuff around, you know, and and suddenly your curated environment is not as precise as it used to be. And things are bright plastic and there are clothes on the floor. So for a lot of people, it's the kind of surrender to that. And how do I live in that reality? And yet I can't be in a six thousand square foot house. How do I make that work in a twelve hundred square foot apartment with two kids sharing a room? which is frankly how most people live here so and I completely do agree then you sort of have that next stage where you kind of have to go through that for a period of time and then it's like again going back to Zen how do I want to live how do I want to feel You know, how do I want to feel at home? And that's what we really do start to see when people maybe become empty nesters or when they become single after being coupled or suddenly get married. You know, you start to ask yourself questions about how

SPEAKER_01:

you want to live. Yeah, how you want to live and who am I?

SPEAKER_03:

Who am I? I love what Katie said. We're listening to the client. And that's such an important job of a broker is to listen to what a client is saying. We tend to talk a lot, but how much are we listening? What questions are we asking? And, you know, we look at how they're dressed, you know, what, what signals can you get from someone? Are they very put together or is then, you know, for them is, is comfort, you know, a little bit of chaotic, a lot, you know, a lot of jewelry, bright colors, you know, we kind of have to Zen for me is stuff like I love I have collections. I love my collections of things around me. Books are very Zen for me. If I could live in a fantasy room, it would be, you know, floor to ceiling bookshelves with, you know, so that's so different for someone else who may want a very sterile you know white on white environment you know so there's no one size fits all and that's when the questions coming in the cues and the and the listening

SPEAKER_05:

Deanna, do you find that some people like me want to get back to Zen and you're like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if we can get you there, John. I mean, do you find some of these are just kind of lost causes? They're just, they're pack rats. They got too much clutter and they're not willing to let go and let you do what you need to do.

SPEAKER_00:

For sure. For sure. And I think that, you know. Some

SPEAKER_05:

of us are hopeless. I know. I know.

SPEAKER_00:

We're talking about so many great topics and so many things are coming to my mind. But, you know, in terms of cleaning, you know, when we're cleaning the client's home, we can do our best, obviously, when there's not tons of stuff around. It's very difficult to clean when we're cleaning people's homes that are very cluttered. And we do have to do that. And when we do, we just have to be masters at what we do. But, you know, sometimes we have clients that ask, oh, you know, can you help me? Can you suggest things? And I always try and suggest just eliminating because you know when you think about zen when i when i originally started i studied buddhism for a while um when i was very young and you know and and my whole philosophy and thought process behind zen is just not having like unnecessary things right because and and that helps in so many different ways because one you're not spending money on things that you don't need you know and two you create an environment where you're seeing things that are really important that you really that you really want right so um so with regards to cleaning, again, you know, if I would have conversations, and I don't always have conversations with clients about, you know, how to maintain their space, you know, visually or in terms of design, we're going into clean, but sometimes when clients do ask us questions, you know, I always say, again, you know, less is more because the most important thing for your space is if you have a clean space that with not so much clutter, hands down, it definitely impacts and affects the way you think, the way you work, you know, everything that you do. So I know for me, for example, and this is one of the loves of, you know, having Zen home. When I wake up every morning, I need to make my bed, right? That's something that I have to do. I need to make my bed because when I leave my home, It makes me feel great. And then when I come back, it also makes me feel great. So it's an action that I'm doing that's creating my entire day. So I think a lot of people underestimate how important it is to have a clean home. I think it's one of the most important things because it impacts everything you do. It impacts how you communicate with your family. If I come home and I've had a rough day at work and my six-year-old is needing attention and my house is dirty, I just want to clean it first and not even pay attention to him. But then if I come home and my space is clean, I just feel so different. And I know that we all do, but a lot of us just don't realize that and we just ignore that.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

Can I ask you for, I want a pro tip. What does clean smell like? And I ask you that because I know that major corporations struggle with this. Febreze is now a famous case study where they made this great cleaning product and nobody bought it. And then they added scent and it started to sell. And what they found in the study is that people said, yeah, I want it to feel clean. It needs to smell clean. I need it to be, I need... I need it to, when I come home, I want it to smell clean. So what is smelling clean, smelling Zen mean to you?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, for me, it definitely doesn't mean smelling like bleach. And I think, you know, there's a lot of people that still think that like a clean home needs to smell like bleach. So for me, Personally, it's a citrus sort of smell for me. That's what does it for me. And our most popular essential oils that clients want us to use is lemongrass oil. So we have lemongrass, lavender, and then we have sweet orange. And they always ask for lemongrass. So that's what it means for me. Again, and I can definitely tell you, so our products have... tea tree oil in every single product. So we have a proprietary cleaning product line and the base of the products, the base of these, the base of the essential oils that we use are lemongrass, lavender, but every product has tea tree oil in it. So we can tell clients tea tree oil is a natural disinfectant. And so we can confidently tell clients that we can disinfect their space without using bleach because our products have tea tree oil in it. And when I smell tea tree oil, it has this sort of medicinal smell. It makes me, it makes, I just, I'm not able to feel like it's clean or, you know, there's, yeah, it just, again, I can't. So

SPEAKER_05:

tea tree and lemongrass, those are the secrets.

SPEAKER_04:

Yes, yes. We're talking about how things make you feel. And that component of a scent gives you a certain sense of care. Like someone has cared for this. space now i wanted to ask mike something like mike when you prepare a property because you really you come in and you really create the environment and we're talking about stimulus do you also provide an auditory component when you show any sort of music any sort of anything like that that you know because and some people again some things soothe people in a different way than others you know do you make choices do you ever do that

SPEAKER_03:

It's so interesting that you're asking that because I'm sort of getting a listing ready and I'm staging it and I'm bringing my own personal items, which I use in staging and artwork and things. And the two things that I'm thinking about are fragrance and music. And, you know, there are a couple of tricks that I go to and as brokers, you know, these don't even really have to cost anything. Flowers and plants, you know, so flowers. Having at least one plant that's alive in a space that is appropriate for that light brings, think about it, you're bringing something alive into a space. Plants absorb dust, they, I think create a mood. They're so happy to me, you know, and healthy. Fresh flowers, there you go with fragrance. If someone is a fragrance adverse, unless it's lilies, they usually like flowers. So they'll typically say, maybe I don't like anything that's very strong, but even just the subtlest fragrance of a natural flower is maybe subliminally perceptive. You know, you actually kind of pick up on that. A smell that I think people associate with clean is fresh laundry. And something that I always love to try to do, you know, there's the old joke about like an apple pie in the oven, which, by the way, I would say one out of every 10, I will put something in the oven. And if it's appropriate, like based on that home, it feels like a kitchen that people want to bake in. Buying something already made and putting in the oven and turning the oven off, you're creating something they won't even necessarily know they're smelling, but it's going to smell like home. It'll have a come, especially in the fall and winter. I really do that. Like anything with apple. I think, you know, that is generally very warm. Sure. You have a turkey in the oven and it feels like Thanksgiving. Exactly. You know what? I'm not above that. You know, but these are little things that, you know, I always love to place books on a bedside table. One book on each side of a bed to give a story. Is someone reading in this room? Are they reading before they go to bed? And what is that book? What is the color of the jacket of the book? What's the message of that book? These little things that we can do create a feeling. And it doesn't have to cost anything along our lines because we can invest thousands of dollars every time we're putting a listing together. But we could certainly bring flowers. We could bring cookies. We could, you know, maybe run laundry with fabric softener. You know, we know how important that is for buyers, you know, to have an in-unit laundry. So I just love this so much. I think it's so applicable. And yes, music, we have to be careful because sometimes people think we're trying to cover ambient noise, you know, but if you could very gently, maybe in one or maybe in the nursery or maybe in the primary bedroom, have a little bit of music on a Sonos or something. What's your go-to,

SPEAKER_05:

Mike? What's your go-to music? Are we doing electronic, hip-hop? What are we doing?

SPEAKER_03:

So I try not to be cliche because you don't want it to sound like a holistic spa where you're gimmicky. I do tend to think electronic music... I kind of go back to like Moby and that genre where it still feels a little young and a little energetic, but kind of ambient. And just if music is very soft, it almost doesn't even matter exactly what that music is, as long as it's creating a little bit of a mood. I once had this Vince

SPEAKER_04:

Giraldi CD that I was using, and it was beautiful. It was lovely music. I loved it. The place just wouldn't sell. And I must have listened to that music for eight months. When I hear it today, it's like, ah! That

SPEAKER_03:

is not Zen. That's not a Zen feeling.

SPEAKER_04:

Katie, I have a question for you. So you're designing a space and there is, you know, a while ago, and maybe it's still there, but a while ago, 10 years, 15 years ago, Feng Shui was a big thing. You know, how does it feel? You know, are there certain rules about how you walk in a room? You can't have a couch that backs up to you as you walk in. You know, when you're thinking about these spaces, are there some general rules broad strokes of what you're achieving as you walk into these spaces and what you want?

SPEAKER_01:

I think so. I mean, I think that, you know, I happen to be, you know, I realize that a lot of my interiors are perhaps more sculptural because I don't over clutter things. I keep things quite you know, the placement of things quite open. I like flow. I like the people to sparkle. I often imagine in an interior where are the people sitting? How is everyone gonna feel in the room? Is it only gonna be about the colors and the fabrics? Are you gonna be able to see the people? That's really important to me that the people, when they enter the room, are the shine as well as the interior. So I think open, I love open. I love people being able to sort of move around in things. But actually, I don't know if I really answered your question. I'm sorry. But I think maybe one thing that's sort of interesting on my mind at the moment is this idea of you hear a lot now about how cleaning products are actually really bad for you. I'm sure I can see Deanna nodding. I've really done a bit of research about this for various reasons. Actually, clients have asked me a lot about it. How do we care for things in a non-toxic way? And we also have a lot of clients asking us for non-toxic fabrics, non-toxic dyes, non-toxic carpets. I mean, of course, wool isn't in everything, but there is a real sort of a lot of clients are asking me about this. And I'm curious what Diana has to say about it because a lot of these very beautiful smelling products are actually very bad for you.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely. The difference is, you know, when you're in a space, you're in a very contained atmosphere, right? So like if we're walking on the street and we're smelling chemicals, I mean, there's trees, there's air, there's all these different components that are absorbing all those chemicals. But when you're in a space, your home, which, you know, in New York City, we all know they're often very small, but, you know, you're breathing that, you're breathing those chemicals. You know, so it is really important. It is very important to be mindful of the scents that you're using in your home, whether it's coming from the cleaning products, whether it's coming from the carpet, whether it's... The detergent, yeah. Yes, exactly. And the green products are just as effective. They're just as effective. You know, there comes a point where with... like mold, for example, in tile, even bleach can't take it out. You just have to re-caulk your bathroom, right? Which doesn't even take a lot of time. I've done it myself. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So the benefits, the benefits are huge, you know, and I'm glad to hear that, that clients are asking about that because

SPEAKER_01:

it's a really big topic. Interestingly, at the moment, like I've never had it as much as I'm having it now. They really want healthy, non-toxic alternatives to everything.

SPEAKER_00:

And, you know, and it's also really great as a company because, you know, there's been studies where there's been studies that have been done where they find that housekeepers have a very high rate of asthma because they're the one that's breathing those chemicals, right? So many of our employees are so grateful for working for a company like ours because we just don't allow them to use it. We are just really passionate about it. If a client asks us to use bleach, we're like, we're sorry, we can't, you know, we don't even carry, like soap bleach is not a product or a non-toxic bleach is not a product that we carry, but we will say to them, you can purchase seven generations. They have none. We'll give them suggestions if it's a product that we don't have, but we're just really firm about that because it's important to our philosophy as well as to the people that are breathing those chemicals.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I've also noticed that I'm going into lobbies at the moment. I don't know if you guys have noticed this where, yeah, you walk in and there's a very heavy scent of, say, Cental from Le Labo, you know, or another one. And a couple of the buildings that I'm working in at the moment, they're beautiful, very high-end, gorgeous buildings. And the building has decided to pipe in significant amount of perfume scented. You know, I don't know how everybody feels about that. It's just interesting.

SPEAKER_03:

It's very mixed for people. It's very polarizing. And I've been in buildings where I've been on buildings on the new development side where we're part of the sales team and it is decided to infuse a building with fragrance and often it's done because there's an unpleasant odor somewhere that can be corrected and they are trying to correct it or mask it. So it's often a fix for a problem. And then you could imagine the residents who are not comfortable with it or who don't particularly like that fragrance or are very sensitive to smell go crazy because for someone who's very sensitive, it could be terrible headache. It can make them feel sick. I mean, it's a very real thing for people, you know, who are very affected by fragrance. So it's very tricky. And the one hotel created a fragrance, I don't know, 10 or 15 years ago or so, and people started to emulate it because their lobbies, you know, It was branding. Fragrance is branding. Deanna, you're branding your company with lemongrass, you know, with oil, tea tree oil. And they say that the sense of smell is what lasts forever. Like, you know, these fragrances that will go back to 50 years, you know, we won't know where we smelled it, but it'll feel nostalgic for us. So we're creating these heritage chemicals in our brains. And it's really powerful.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, the olfactory system. I mean, you smell things and it just, it triggers memories. Like that smells like my first grade classroom. It's unbelievable. Things like

SPEAKER_01:

that. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. It's so true. It's so true. Well, it's very, I didn't realize it was possibly there for a reason.

SPEAKER_03:

Sometimes, you know, sometimes it's very much part of the, yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03:

It's tricky. You have to have fresh air and that's something that's so important. If you're in a very enclosed space and there's a lot of fragrance, It's overwhelming. You know, with a hotel, it's good because there's so much in and out and there's usually a front and a back. So you have a lot of airflow. Yes. But in a residential lobby where there's probably one door and it's rarely open and you've got this fragrance being pumped in or in the hallways where there's no window, that's intense. It's intense.

SPEAKER_01:

And I was thinking, I was wondering if it was a sort of zen, if it was, you know, a sort of... some sort of, you know, approach to that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, it's both,

SPEAKER_00:

I think. I think with hotels, I think, because I've been to the one hotel, and I do think that it's just, it's a play on how people react to scents. And it's very true. Like, we are definitely, we react to scents. And, you know, if it is, even if it's, I'm sure there are those scents or not, you you know, their chemical scents, their man-made scents. But if it's the right one, it can definitely give the client a certain type of feeling. And I've been, like I said, I've been to the one hotel and when I went in, it smelled really great. Even though it was, I knew it wasn't a natural scent, but it just, it gave a whole feeling because they also had the music going. It just hit all the senses, for sure. They're really good at

SPEAKER_03:

creating. If anyone hasn't been, it's wherever you go, if there's a one hotel, go to the lobby, because they're all a little bit different, but I think their fragrance is consistent. But they really create a mood. And they were kind of, I think, early in adopting that. You know, and... You

SPEAKER_05:

know what I think is the opposite, and it's a trend, the opposite of the Zen home, is this reliance on virtual staging. It constantly amazes me that agents believe, okay, well, I've got this empty space, and so what I'll do is I'll just trick the photography, show you what it would look like, furnished, and that's good enough. I've got a client now who said, oh, we don't need to stage it, do we? I mean, we can just virtually stage it. I just wrote an article this week, and it's going to be in next week's newsletter, on studies have shown in retail environments that people do respond to the way it smells, the fact that I can sit down in the space, I can linger in the space. I've got all the stats in the article, but it's scientifically proven. We've been studying this stuff since 1950 on how do people respond to the physical space? So it's amazing to me that an entire generation of realtors have said, that's okay, I can get it done with Photoshop and a floor plan.

SPEAKER_03:

Something we could do as brokers, which is so important, is ask someone if they'd like to sit down. Can you imagine buying a home and you haven't sat down in the living room? I always say after we walk through, please have a seat. That's why, as you said, in-person staging is so important. You're so uncomfortable in an empty space, even if it's this amazing thing with high ceilings and whatever else. Sit down in a chair. Maybe there's a throne next to it. Maybe they could put their foot up on an ottoman and walk away. You know, don't hover over them. Let them breathe.

SPEAKER_05:

Let them, yeah. So, and so that's why I guess I'm really surprised. Roberto, so do you recommend staging? And when do you recommend staging? Mike, do you recommend it? Katie, are you able to convey a Zen home through the drawings and say, see, this is what is, or do they really need to experience

SPEAKER_01:

it? No, I just had a very interesting experience with staging. We have a client who wanted to sell their apartment. They weren't living in it and they staged it. you know, very thoroughly. And, you know, it was extremely, you know, well done staged, but it was nonetheless clearly staged. And it never sold. And I don't know if, you know, and they're actually now deciding, okay, we're going to actually live here now. But before that, they were quite keen to sell it. And the staging, it felt, it's very difficult to deliver that personality, you know,

SPEAKER_05:

Well, a lot of the stagers purposely fill the room with white muslin and colorless so that it feels like it works for everybody. But to your point, it's not enough to just whitewash a space and call it Zen. It's got to feel and appeal to all

SPEAKER_04:

the different senses. The first thing that it does is it gives you a sense of proportion of room. Because you see a couch, you see a chair, and your eye now has depth perception. That's the first thing of staging. And we're talking about also, we're talking about staging a vacant room or property as opposed to taking something that's maybe old and you're telling the seller, look, let's re imagine this. Let's take all of your stuff out of here and let you know, that's a different, that's a different agenda, you know, in some ways, but to, to create that space. And I think staging it's unquantifiable of what it gets you, but it definitely gets you to the finish line faster. It gets you sold faster. It gets you, gets you a higher price. And there's no question about it in my opinion.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay. That's good. I think, what do you mean it's unquantifiable? If you ask NAR, they say it costs about 1% and it'll bring you on average 5%. So, I mean, they do study these things. That's a big sample size.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah, big sample size. Fair, but I know in New York, it might be a little, everything's different in New York.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, yeah. I would imagine that Zen... is more important on the smaller spaces, smaller precious spaces in New York City than perhaps making my Hamptons homes or my vacation home. My vacation home is already a place where I feel more relaxed. But I would think that every square foot in New York matters. And there's already a push to make everything efficient. And now it seems to me that once we've gotten past efficiency, this is the next level. Okay, my apartment already works like a machine. It's very efficient. But how does it make me feel? You seeing that, Mike? I mean, I see a lot of nodding.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes, especially... The world is traumatic right now. News is intense and there's so much going on. We're all totally bombarded. Even if we want to be off news and social media and our phone, we're not, we're always hearing things. So more than ever, I think we need a retreat from real life. You know, New York is so intense. And if you're here, you know, wherever you live, you know, just, it's hot and it's crowded and talk about smells. I mean, it's overwhelming, you know? And so I think more than ever, we are reacting to over stimulation and we now have more language and more ability to say this is important to me and like i love it you know katie's clients are asking them asking her about these other products or materials they may not have which they may which may not have occurred to them in the past you know unless they had a real sensitivity to it so there's a wake there's an awakening and an awareness that is really interesting that the general public is feeling which is a reaction to What's going on, right? I mean, it's not a surprise. So, Katie,

SPEAKER_05:

did you want to talk to us about your newest, your news? Are you getting published this week, Katie?

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So exciting. In Dijon Magazine, a lovely piece. It's actually an old project.

SPEAKER_05:

Is this it?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, no, that one. No, not that one.

SPEAKER_05:

Okay, not that one. I'll go back to the other one. that you sent me, boom. Okay, these.

SPEAKER_01:

Beautiful. Really fun, really a very happy place and it's in Sagaponik and it's a project we did a few years ago and I'm glad to say and see that it really it's know really held up well you know really the design is so classic that it's just timeless which is again an important element to design i think

SPEAKER_05:

so what are the things i should be noticing in these photographs one of the things i notice is that this looks like this kitchen would be easy to clean i don't see a lot of fabrics um it seems to be all of one palette what else is on trend here

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I think that there's a lot of very pretty, earthy materials, you know, the floors, the woods, the leathers, the fabrics. There's an appropriate and lovely amount of layering, but again, it's not overly layered. So it's sort of, I feel very very calming to live in it, but it still feels rich. If

SPEAKER_05:

you know

SPEAKER_01:

what I mean. And we've

SPEAKER_05:

got Mike Lubin's house plants on, you know, all over this picture.

SPEAKER_03:

It is, it's no surprise that people have a subconscious reaction to greenery

SPEAKER_05:

and nature.

SPEAKER_03:

Even, you know, if someone's an urban city or not, I think it's just something that we're programmed with to see nature and to let that feel calming. I love how much green you've brought in. There's, you brought the outdoors is inside.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah. But there's a balance, Mike, and you're in the city and you go to an apartment and there's 17,000 plants in front of a window and it's no light. You're just like, this is awful.

SPEAKER_01:

I think household plants need to be done with great care because as soon as it starts to look messy, you've defeated the purpose.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

One goes a long way.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03:

One well cared for. Yeah. Also, Katie, I want to say there's color in here, which I'm so happy to notice and to talk about. As you were saying, Zen does not have to be cream on white. There is a real palette of colors in this house. And yet it is still meditative and peaceful and Zen, as we're saying.

SPEAKER_01:

I agree. I agree. I love that about it. I love that. You know, the architect was Deborah Burke. And they, I think, definitely deserve a shout out because they did a really beautiful job of sort of creating the rooms with plenty of light, but also the embrace of a wall, the embrace of, you know, you're not just exposed, you know, it feels calm, I think, because of that balance. They did a really good job with that. You know, and there's nice pitched EV type ceilings in the upstairs, which again, give it character and warmth.

SPEAKER_05:

Yep, and I see the call-outs are open, relaxing, a sense of patina. What does that mean, sense of patina?

SPEAKER_01:

For this particular client, it meant just a nod to things having a sense of age, like those are vintage chairs on the porch, and there's a beautiful sort of Paul McCobb walnut dresser in the primary, and sort of each room has a piece in it that's, you know, it's a new house, a new build. So So, you know, that leather chair in the den is old from Paris.

SPEAKER_05:

Appropriately scratched.

SPEAKER_01:

I like it. You're right. A few things here and there that just give it that sense of it.

SPEAKER_04:

Can you scroll down, John, just a little bit more? There's a room with some club chairs or something in there. I couldn't quite see that well. Okay, that? No, it was another one. That one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,

SPEAKER_01:

those are vintage Milo Bowman chairs. And that's a sort of a mid-century lamp. But then everything else in there is sort of new and, I mean, not, you know, just made for the space. And of course, that's a beautiful painting. It's a Sean Scully above the sofa there.

SPEAKER_05:

Did you build this around a piece or two? Did they own the painting? And you say, okay, I can work with that.

SPEAKER_01:

No, that was a bit of a search, actually. And then finding it finally, it was sort of definitely a bit of a search.

SPEAKER_05:

Very cool. I will tell you, I have a Paul McCobb dresser in my

SPEAKER_01:

bedroom. I think he was really such an artist at creating that sort of balance between something special, but something very, very calm and minimal and timeless and goes actually... in almost any environment. They're really, they're underrated beauties in my, you know, I love them. What era

SPEAKER_04:

is this? I'm not familiar with it.

SPEAKER_01:

Paul McCobb is a sort of mid-century furniture maker and he did a very, very, you know, the dimensions of the pieces are very simple, but they're just very well conceived. And it's that thing about that, it being special but simple and having a function as well as beauty.

SPEAKER_05:

These are Paul McCobb. And this is why he's back in style because you can match these, right? These are so versatile in 2025 that you can match them with so many other pieces.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, I mean, people now copy him all the time. But original pieces are really... lovely and simple and elegant and timeless. And, you know, you don't want your whole house, but the odd pieces of it, they really speak to that lovely line of function and purpose. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Go ahead. There's one simple thing that brokers can do as well, which I think sometimes people forget is think about light source and are there dimmers? in the apartment or in the home? So important. What is the tone of the light bulb? So important. Very few people want to live in a blue-white

SPEAKER_01:

LED

SPEAKER_03:

situation. And also, is it over-lit? you know, everyone became so obsessed about overhead lighting and I, and also in bedrooms, they want it in bedrooms, which makes me crazy. Recessed overhead lighting and all these rooms. And then it's up all the way at the highest degree. First of all, not Zen, not relaxing to walk into that environment. You see too much, too many of the flaws. It draws too much attention to the things that you don't really want to be pointing out. I

SPEAKER_05:

put hue light bulbs in all of the lamps around the house. I mean, I have a Lutron system and all that but I find I rely on it to be programmed and every morning the lights come on and they come on at 10% and the lights turn themselves off at 11 throughout the house and they turn themselves on in the evening at 10% or 20% or whatever and that is I have to say it's made my wellness my

SPEAKER_03:

stress

SPEAKER_05:

tremendous just with a change of light bulbs can make all the difference now you You can get fancy and buy colored hue bulbs, and I do. And all I do, I don't make them red and green. The purpose, and Katie, help me out with this, but the purpose is I want a warmer light in some rooms. I want a cooler light in other rooms. Typically, I want everything to be kind of a warmer, yellower light. than I'm going to get. The

SPEAKER_04:

colored lights are for Saturday night. He's lying.

SPEAKER_05:

So I'm so glad you said that, Mike.

SPEAKER_03:

And it's easy.

SPEAKER_01:

You know, I'm having such a kind of struggle with this apartment that I'm building for myself because the ceilings are not high and to get sort of, but the rooms are quite large. And so to get them lit, I kind of need some recessed lighting, but I just won't do it. So it's just going to be a really dark apartment, but I think it'll be okay.

SPEAKER_05:

Why not cans? Washing. spaces, washing. I mean, that's the old-fashioned way.

SPEAKER_01:

I remember my parents. I remember them. I remember them. I remember those.

SPEAKER_05:

Everybody had a can.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, on the floor or in the corner behind the sofa. Yes, yes, maybe.

SPEAKER_05:

Katie, it's a return to the 70s. We can do this.

SPEAKER_01:

Clearly.

SPEAKER_05:

This has been so much fun. All right. I'll let you each say your goodbyes, but I want to remind you, you can find us at burrowsandburbs.com, and the show will be up in the next 15 minutes. I want to thank our sponsor, Grace Farms, teas and coffee. You'll find them at sharegracefarms.com. Roberto, you'll find Roberto Cabrera at Brown Harris Stevens. I'm John Engel, and I am, there I am, boom, handsome devil. You'll find me at element.com. Lisa Ben-Isby, thank you for putting this show together, another fantastic show. The best. Mike Lubin, love Mike Lubin, love your sense of Zen. Renaissance man. Oh, me too. And I want to remind you, zenhomecleaning.com is where you can find Zen Home Cleaning and Deanna Haynes. I want to, what else have we got? Yep, there we go. katyleideninteriors.com. Thank you, Katie. And what else did I have? Oh, Mike sent me this. I thought it was great. 10 Easy Steps to Creating a Zen Home Interior. Send me an email if you can't find this, but 10 Easy Steps to Creating Zen. So thanks, Mike, for sending that our way. And so thank you, everybody. It's

SPEAKER_01:

been a fantastic show. Thank you. Thank you. Does anybody have

SPEAKER_05:

a brilliant thought to take us home?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, I can't wait to tell my clients about Deanna because I know they're going to love to know about you. Yes. Great. Thank

SPEAKER_00:

you so much, guys.

SPEAKER_06:

Thank

SPEAKER_05:

you. So sometimes I don't need a new home from Roberto and Mike, and I don't need to redecorate with Katie. Sometimes I just need a good Zen cleaning. I

SPEAKER_00:

love that.

SPEAKER_05:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03:

Good place to start. Thanks,

SPEAKER_05:

everybody. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00:

Bye. Thank you. Bye.

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John Engel

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Roberto Cabrera

Host