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Dentists Who Invest Podcast
Why We Started A Squat Practice At 25 Years Of Age with Dr James and Dr Katy Nolan
You can download your FREE report on how you can avoid financial mistakes as a dentist using the link just here >>> dentistswhoinvest.com/podcastreport
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What makes two young dentists take the plunge into practice ownership at just 25? James and Katy Nolan share their journey of launching a squat practice—combining ambition, a bit of naivety, and a whole lot of determination.
They open up about the highs, the hurdles, and the lessons learned along the way, from building patient trust with minimal marketing spend to balancing business with their personal relationship.
If you’re thinking about starting your own practice (or just love a good success story), this episode is a must-listen!
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Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional.
What would ever come over somebody to start a squat at the age of 25? Well, hold that thought, because that's a question that you can ask to my two amazing guests in the Dentists Who Invest podcast today. James and Katy Nolan did exactly that and then since went on to start a further squat A little later, a few years down the line. We're going to be talking about their journey. What possessed them to make that decision way back in the day at such a young age, the trials and tribulations that they encountered, and their words of wisdom to anybody who is about to embark upon that journey. Guys, Katy and James, let's cut to the chase the exact title of this podcast what comes over somebody to start a flipping squat at 25? First of all, hats off to you both. You do know you've done something amazing, right? Thank, you.
Dr James M.:Yeah, yeah, we're great. No, I'm kidding.
Dr James N.:No, no, I think. Yeah, more I don't know, more probably naivety and ignorance looking back, but a big dream, yeah, I think. What would you say?
Dr Katy N.:I'd say, yeah, dreaming and naivety, definitely. I'd say we met at university so like part of the talking point was you know, do we want to have a practice one day? And we wanted it to be glass fronted. And yeah, we just literally walked across the complex ones and it had all big glass fronts.
Dr James N.:We'd not even been long since graduated and we just kind of looked at it and I was like James, we've got to do it yeah, wow, and then we just decided yeah, and then we we knew what we wanted to create and then we just kind of, we have a good work, we have a good work ethic. Looking back and we just, yeah, did what it took to make it happen stubborn.
Dr Katy N.:Stubbornness is like one of the biggest things that we had. Like, if we like, if we were going to do it and we're going to make it happen.
Dr James M.:We were so stubborn we'd have put ourselves through absolutely anything to make it work, which is a good quality, and a bad quality because we would sacrifice our life for it too well, you gotta, that's how it works, at least at the start, right, and there's, there's, there's a saying I can't remember the exact saying, I'm not even going to attempt it today, uh, in case I butcher it, but it's something along the lines of naivety. Is your biggest superpower, uh, especially at the start, whenever you start a business, because you just, you almost know so little about the situation that you're not scared of the downside or potential negative things can happen, because you don't even know what they are, and then, therefore, you just go for it yeah, I think that that would be it, like we were relatively fresh out of university.
Dr James N.:We're about three, three years out, two, two years out, two, three years out, um. So you only have limited experience, um, and you can see the gaps in the practices where you work and we could see, you know, the holes that we could fill yeah but then I don't think we really saw the behind fall, behind the scenes of running a practice and I don't think you really truly appreciate it until you're actually doing it.
Dr James N.:You know all the other costs, understanding you need of, like the marketing, the sales. You know just a general business, overheads and controlling those and that's how. It's not just a practice where you do dentistry, it's a, it's a full-on business.
Dr James M.:Um, yeah, you know what? We should totally talk about that and we would definitely cover that as the podcast progresses. I guess the first thing this brings to my mind is why didn't you just go and buy a dental practice that was already set up, because they say that's the easier path versus a squat?
Dr James N.:I mean for my answer. I would say um, if you're buying a practice, uh, you're buying someone else's decor, someone else's fit out, so you have to confine. You know you're limited to how they've made the aesthetic of the practice look. And then you're buying the Goodwill, and Goodwill is very expensive. So I feel like it's a safer option because you're buying and you've got immediate cash flow from day one. Is very expensive. So I feel like it's a safer option because you're buying and you've got immediate cash flow from day one.
Dr James N.:But if we were buying a practice, I think we'd look for one that we could do an improvement with. So we probably want to improve the marketing, probably want to refurb it, probably want to get new patients in either way. I mean it's like, well, if they're the problems that you're going to solve when you buy the practice, then you can save the goodwill and you can fit one out. Um, and, yeah, you can do the marketing yourself. Um, I think it's. It's a little more cost effective. At our time of setting up, we didn't have the funds required to purchase a practice. We couldn't have purchased one um, but we could set one out, set one up, um, yeah, what would you say?
Dr Katy N.:I don't want to sound controversial, so if you need to do it, it's fine, it's allowed on this podcast?
Dr James M.:Well, actually listen. I should be careful, then, because I have no idea what's going to come out of your mouth.
Dr Katy N.:This could be anything I'd say going back to, like the dreaming aspect, I'd say I didn't want to buy somebody else's dream Like for me, like we had our own and we'd done it for so many years, like we knew what we wanted. Like I did, I didn't want to buy somebody else's chair, walls, team members, I wanted to pick my own. Like, like everything, like, yeah, I want. And also as well, when you're buying somebody else's practice, you don't know whether somebody is potentially kind of like set it up to sell. You don't know what you're potentially walking into. I, you know you're potentially going to walk into a whole curveball full of problems.
Dr Katy N.:Not that I'm saying that somebody potentially do that on purpose, but just in case it's not, it didn't. I didn't want it to be my first experience. Um, so yeah, I'd say that. And then also, yeah, it was cost effective. Like we, we've got it. We, we managed to build a loan and then COVID happened, the loan got halved, so we had to half the build and then build up in stages. So even if we wanted to buy somebody else's practice, it just was not going to happen.
Dr James M.:And you know what? I don't want to sidetrack this podcast too much, but if we pull this podcast into the present tense and we speak from where you guys are right now, was it the right choice?
Dr James N.:There's a few things I'd say to answer nothing. Yeah, I think business-wise for sure. Uh, personal life-wise definitely not. Um, yeah, like, yeah, we haven't been a holiday for years, yeah, since 2017 not as a couple. Not as a couple we have been a holiday, but it doesn't count unless you go as a couple.
Dr Katy N.:But no, it doesn't.
Dr James N.:We went and we don't really do dates yeah, for years we didn't have a life for many, many years. And it's um. That's where the naivety comment comes back in. Yeah, that's what we're getting ourselves into. I think if we truly knew the extent of the work getting into, I think we'd probably still do it.
Dr James N.:But, like um, that's because we're stupid you've probably ever thought about that, um, but business-wise, for sure, for sure, it means it's. I think you learn a lot of lessons having to set everything up from scratch. There's no systems, no processes, no employee like you've just got to do everything from scratch. I think the knowledge and experience you gain from setting up from scratches, um, yeah, it's priceless. It's not only about the financial side. It's where we feel now in terms of understanding the dental business model, even though we know where we want to be. But, um, it's really valuable.
Dr Katy N.:I'd say part of the romance of it as well, like which drove. The full thing, to be fair, is we wanted to spend all of our time together. Um, not just me, both of us, but um, we wanted to spend all our time together, so it allowed for that. But I would say, when they say, like business can be make or break for relationships, I can see that like we've had to be able to work together all the time and you know you're constantly talking about business or you're constantly thinking about something or something like that. It's yeah, I feel like I we knew we had a strong relationship, but we definitely needed to have a strong relationship to be able to just sacrifice everything and give everything, our all, to the business together and show united front.
Dr James M.:Yeah, yeah wow, love it. So make sure that the relationship is strong from the get-go. Is is part of your words of wisdom definitely that is the takeaway from that.
Dr James M.:Okay, cool, all right, let's go back to the past, tense, and let's go to circa the era when we started the dental practice. So, squat, you had your eye on the market for the squat, you had your eyes out okay, for a good practice or whatever. How many people did you go and talk to beforehand like how did you? What were the actual logistics of making it happen? Did you just, like, full-on go for it, or was a lot of mentorship and consideration and things along those lines? I'm just just curious.
Dr Katy N.:We almost thought we had a bargain at one point, didn't we James?
Dr James N.:Yeah, we didn't, to be fair. We didn't have a mentor, we didn't have anyone sort of guiding us, just a lot of research, a lot of research. We only looked at one other place.
Dr James N.:We looked at one other practice that had been going since 2012, and it's been 10 years at the time and due to costs somehow, yeah, yeah, and then somehow it uh, yeah, it didn't have cqc, um, it didn't have a planning permission, and we're like whoa, okay, how is that operating, even if we found out that time? Um, but yeah, we kind of just went at it and we thought, well, if someone else can do it, then why can't we do it as well?
Dr Katy N.:so we just CQC ours.
Dr James N.:We made it legal, yeah yeah, yeah, just to clarify, um, yeah, so then it's just, you know the guidelines and everything's all out there. So we just, I just spent, you know just spent ages reading guidelines and you know full html 105 back to front that was James. I can't take credit yeah, just, we're just obsessed with the idea of making it work, so we didn't actually speak to anyone before we did it.
Dr Katy N.:We just thought let's do this wow, and you still pulled it off somehow, somehow I feel like I was probably like James is like really, really good at being by the book, following the rules and making sure that we do everything properly, and I'm kind of like there, come on, James, it's going to be absolutely fine. Other people, other people have done it, so we can, too, like where there's a will, there's a way, like, come on, it's going to be easy. So then, yeah, I feel like it's a good teamwork, but James probably has had a lot of years taken from his life, probably.
Dr James N.:I think probably. Yeah, I think having a good mentor would a bit would have been really helpful, though yeah, I think like knowledge is something that we probably underestimated an experience, you know.
Dr James N.:Instead, we had to learn from our experiences. We went along, um, and if we knew where to find someone and we would have spoken to someone, then it would for sure have been something that was really helpful, because it was. It was difficult and stressful setting up and trying to navigate. It was. It's a maze, um, building a practice, then getting it going. You know, we start. We had zero pounds left for market and we didn't know what market was. We thought people just walk in. Um, there were so many things that we did wrong, like cash flow, didn't understand what cash flow was, so we had nothing left.
Dr Katy N.:We put it like um yeah, which would have been nice if someone would have told us this before we opened, but then again, though it might have put James off some in some ways, I'm kind of glad that we went into it a bit blind for sure yeah well, it just goes back to what I was saying earlier.
Dr James M.:I think it can be your greatest superpower. Really. Just a little bit of naivety actually can help out not too much. There's like a sweet spot there somewhere, but it sounds like it kind of panned out for you guys. So listen, walk me through it. Walk me through it. You've got the practice. They've given you the loan, you sorted it all out. You're good to go. It's opening day. What's going through your head as 25-year-olds?
Dr Katy N.:Surely you remember that day crisply in here, even though it was many years ago, because it was so poignant and uh power, you know such, a, such a hallmark part of the journey yeah, you go yeah, um, probably a lot of emotions, partially thank goodness, because, as with many builds, there was delays, so we'd had the patients booked in probably like a week before and I'd kept on having to move them. I remember, like I've got a photo I don't take pictures of myself crying, but I've got one on my phone where we had like a full day of patients booked in and I had to move them and I was just devastated because I didn't want to let them down. And obviously they were fine. They were literally so fine, but I just put so much pressure on both of us that I really hated moving them, but they were literally fine. Um, so, yeah, I feel like just a huge, huge, huge relief, um, when we actually could open the doors.
Dr Katy N.:And then, yeah again, we were just young, like I remember there was two staff members waiting for us in. Um, what was the staff room at the time and now is a surgery. They're like, oh, what do you want us to do today? And both of us, both of us thought, oh well, they're qualified, so they know what they want to do. So, like, whatever you like, just whatever you'd normally do, go do that type thing. They just kind of looked at us like this is your first rodeo, isn't it?
Dr James N.:one of them stuck with us. She's actually our operations manager now, so yeah yeah, she's been very, very key for the journey, um, but yeah, I think, yeah, and on the day, you know, no sleep the night before, um, and then, yeah, we had a, you went out about four at six am the night before on the morning to buy a desk.
Dr Katy N.:Oh I was so excited. So because, uh, the loan that we got given, the build had started and then we kind of got told, like it's, it's actually going to be half the loan now because of covid. So we had to say to the builders right, can we do one section of the build? And then we recouped money, did the rest, then recoup money, did the rest again. So we're always kind of used to now having builds on, which kind of probably does help with expansion. Um, but, yeah so the surgery was the staff room and then we have private waiting rooms. So pods attached to surgeries, it's just part of our design. And yeah so James's like office at the time was there and he had no table or anything for his office and he was like, it's fine, Katy, we don't have the money for it at the moment. So I was like, no, I'm sure we can spare £60. I woke up really really really early to go get this table before we started the day. Um, yeah, that's, I don't know.
Dr James N.:That's the day so like I guess, yeah, yeah. So in summary, like positivity because it's getting going and your first patient's walking in the door and it's excitement, but it's also stress because it's crunch time so everything has to work well and that patient needs to be given a good experience. Yeah, it's the first time you're doing it, so um, and how did it go? Really well, really really well. Um yeah, the first day was really good our first ever patient still yeah, she's.
Dr Katy N.:She's still stuck with us.
Dr James M.:She brought in a family member to see us recently yeah, yeah, oh, wow, okay, so it must have been quite a good impression then she, she's still coming back, she's still there. Wonderful, there we are. Yeah, and can I ask a question? Right and I hope this doesn't come across as like disrespectful or blunt in any way whatsoever did you ever have any headwinds in terms of staff or patients not really giving you the credibility that you deserve because you were so young, because 25 is young, you know, when I see 25 year olds now and they really do, they look like in a nice way, like they look so much, uh, you can tell they're they're. They're so much fresh-faced and kind of you know they look really young, right, don't they? You know, and did you ever come up against any headwinds because of that or anybody not taking you seriously?
Dr James N.:To be fair, I didn't really, but I think you had some time.
Dr Katy N.:You're quite tall, but I feel like James is quite kind of like a tall guy, so I suppose I wouldn't say you didn't look young. But I think I did look young at first. I remember I don't want to say wishing away, but in a way kind of wishing away a couple of years, just so I didn't sound quite so young, because I felt very competent and, um, yeah, I did. To be fair, I felt very confident, like at uni I won awards for my clinical skills, so I felt very competent and ready to kind of thrive and do well. But yeah, just being a little bit on that young side, I found it a little bit of a barrier at some stages and now I wish I was that young again.
Dr James N.:But but I think the sort of you had in the background, the fact that it was your practice, and I think that kind of meant because before we opened, like you said, you'd have patients coming in and then they'd say how?
Dr Katy N.:old are you? How old are you? Practicing all this stuff, but who's the dentist? Yeah, which one of?
Dr James M.:you is the dentist. No way did you get that sometimes, did you?
Dr James N.:when you have it, it's like because you owned it, it's kind of spoke for itself you didn't really get as much. Yeah, not as much, though I think, yeah, you're like yeah, this is my place, so yeah yeah, it's natural, it's gonna happen.
Dr James M.:I had that happen to me a few times, you know. So it just, it just is what it is not so much anymore towards the end of my career, and then I missed those days. So if you're still going through that anybody who's listening in the audience it's a good thing. Cling on to those days while they're still happening anyway. Moving on okay so you were, what would you? I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask you a question now. I'm curious. The practice itself nhs, private mixed. What was the setup?
Dr James N.:purely, purely private uh no way seriously. Wow, we, actually we. We didn't do our vt here for one reason or another for a few reasons, a few personal reasons.
Dr James N.:Uh, we didn't do vt so we had to do private. So we went straight out and did private, which gave us the experience in the private practice and seeing how it runs and providing private treatment to patients, um, and then, yeah, we got insights into private practice around. So then we set off uh, you are very artistic, he's very artistic, you know with hands very good. So, uh, it was at the time, yeah, we were like, well, let's set up somewhere where you can practice your craft doing cosmetic side more. And then, but instead of just doing cosmetic, we want to do everything under one roof. So we, we do. Yeah, it's purely private, but we do everything, from specialist ortho to all on four full implants, specialist oral surgery, cosmetic veneers, everything, um, I'd say we.
Dr Katy N.:We once did cpd uh practice and it was. It was a special. It wasn't a specialist practice but it had a lot of specialists in it and everybody played to their strengths. And I just I remember going to the CPD and like hearing all the different people and I just thought it was absolutely amazing like everybody gets to go to work and do exactly what they enjoy all day long. And I remember seeing the cosmetic dentist there, because that's the thing that I was interested in.
Dr Katy N.:It was kind of prior to the days of cosmetic dentists in a way, and I remember like looking at and thinking, oh my god, like she's amazing, like she was like a superstar to me at the time. Um, but yeah, I'd say a big thing as well, like why we didn't do the VT. Yeah, a lot of it stems back to wanting to kind of like not to be cringy it is a bit cringy, I suppose but to be together and stick together and, you know, spend all the time together, like, yeah, I've got like this little romance love story in my head that's good, okay.
Dr James M.:Well, listen, it seems to have worked out so far for you guys, because it hasn't held you back, because you've achieved all these brilliant things, and I think one thing we haven't mentioned so far is you've actually got it. You actually started another squat, haven't you? As time has went on, but let's, let's talk on that in just a second actually, but just before we do. When you had the practice itself, did you have any associates from the get-go, or it was just both of yourself, was it?
Dr James N.:we did, we had uh some more. We have maybe four or five. Um, wow, yeah, so we had a specialist oral surgeon we could have. We had a specialist periodontist actually, and then we had, uh, we, yeah, yeah I kind of.
Dr Katy N.:Basically, I feel like the way our kind of life works is I dig us into a big hole and then James pulls us back out again. So, like because we were doing the practice, I was like, right, it's gonna be amazing, we've got private pods, it's gonna be beautiful, it's gonna be Vitruvian and it stands for all of this. And then I'd just go on Instagram or something, message loads of people, find some amazing profiles and be like you need to work with us. And then James would be like Katy, we have never run a practice before. What on earth are you thinking?
Dr James N.:Yeah, it was stressful. Yeah, we started with them and, yeah, the diaries were. We managed to somehow make the diaries okay.
Dr James M.:Instagram yeah, yeah that was the next thing I was gonna ask how did you fill the diaries?
Dr James N.:because that's one of the biggest pain points for new dental practice, particularly squats uh yeah, we got the learn well, initially, yeah, we had a list of patients, but Katy had uh, you did that. I give you all like. You basically message people, just just all like. She basically messaged people just just on Instagram. She just had her account and she just called message people who are in James it wasn't quite like that literally was in the area, literally just send them a cold message saying do you want your teeth done?
Dr Katy N.:she'd look and see if they had if somebody's not smiling and showing the teeth, there's often a reason why. That's all I'm gonna say.
Dr James N.:Okay, you would offer to fix that. So literally cold message. But she ended up with a list of she was we're fully booked. For two weeks there was no money spent and she just called message people and then she'd do it was like six figures the, the amount of people that were wanting to come to us but it was prior sorry, I put it in.
Dr Katy N.:You speak sorry oh, no, no, no, go, go go no, it was just prior to the days of cosmetic lenses. Sorry, I didn't mean to put in then.
Dr James N.:I feel bad now but yeah, so yeah, no, I was giving you credit like that, um, so yeah. So then she had she'd do virtual consults, pretty much, set up the treatment plans, um, obviously barring the checkup and any general work they need after the x-rays, and then we ended up with a waiting list of um, yeah, it was about six figures worth within the first two weeks.
Dr Katy N.:It was over six figures.
Dr James N.:Because we needed that to pay off the second bit of the bill.
Dr Katy N.:Yes.
Dr James N.:So we went over budget with extras by about that amount, so we needed that. But then we thought, yes, there was no marketing budget. Now we do it really differently.
Dr Katy N.:Now we have a massive marketing budget, but yeah it was just it's so different.
Dr James N.:Needs must.
Dr James M.:I'm just blown away that you filled the books with cold DMs on Instagram. I mean there must have been a lot of cold DMs right to get the right people, but it worked, kitty.
Dr James N.:Yeah, yeah, yeah, honestly, we had nothing on marketing. We hadn't set up Google Ads, we hadn't set up Meta Ads, we hadn't done anything other than boosting the odd post on, uh, your instagram, which was, uh, we had limited cases on there, that was it. So it was just called dming people offering very good deals, um, in exchange for, like, uh, testimonials and transformations, um, yeah the thing is is somebody doesn't risk.
Dr Katy N.:I feel like it's so easy to get afraid of being embarrassed. But if somebody doesn't, I feel like it's so easy to get afraid of being embarrassed. But if somebody doesn't respond, or if somebody like, doesn't acknowledge you or says, oh no, sorry, it's not for me, nobody's lost, anything like it wasn't a case of me saying, oh, you're not smiling with your teeth, like I didn't give anybody a negative self-esteem or anything like that. I'd literally be a case of like hi, by the way, like da-da-da, you know, respond or don't respond, that's absolutely fine. Like it it was. It's just I don't know energy and excitement.
Dr James N.:You just said we're opening a brand new dental practice. Would you be interested?
Dr James M.:I'm blown away. I've. I mean, it makes complete sense that it would work. I just never thought about doing that and I've never heard of anybody on the podcast either saying that. So listen, that is actually really cool, and I hope that the listeners are really tuning in right now because everybody gets the right sort. How can I say this? You know they have a real hang up on how the books are going to fill up. You guys did zero marketing, zero spend, pure, just putting in a shift, messaging people on it was a lot of work.
Dr Katy N.:Yeah, I can imagine it must have been like it definitely needed two of us yeah, while you were doing that crazy work.
Dr James M.:I did the paperwork while you were doing building the diary and it was like teamwork good teamwork and I know you became very good at messages, James I know this is a little bit of a crude question because it's not all about what I'm about to ask, like there's other variables surrounding it as well. But how many followers did you have around about that era on Instagram?
Dr Katy N.:Probably not that many. Compared to be fair, probably like four or 5,000.
Dr Katy N.:Like probably really probably not that many actually Like yeah. And then I put my account on pause for a while because I couldn't keep up. When we did open, I couldn't keep up with it until about six months ago I reopened it. So even now it's only on about five or six like. It's not. It's not like a huge account, but it was it. I feel like it was how I use the social media, not to boost my own ego, but it was quite smart and I feel like in my head, like I thought to myself right, if I get a list of patients, I'll be able to prove to James that it's gonna work and, as it was, it actually also helped us get the loan. So but for me it was like come on, James, I can prove to you I'm gonna have this huge list of people. Like it was just a bit of dreaming really, but it ended up being quite useful, yeah flipping hats off.
Dr James M.:I'm I'm impressed. I've never come across that as a strategy before, and I think it's probably a reason for it I think it's really cool. There we are. Anyway, let's move on. Let's fast forward to the future now. First squat went well, got it up, got it running, everything along those lines, and you went back for more. You opened another squat yeah, it just opened.
Dr James N.:The november this year is a couple of months delayed, um, but yeah, it's because of the business model works slightly different, so we rely on new patients, so we don't have a patient list, really, um, so then it's because we're we have, we have the internal workflow so much so that we can just attract new patients every month that we were like, okay, well, if we just open, you know, we just need another location, another building, another practice, and because we we have a whole new practice basically starting every few months anyway, yeah, a whole new influx of patients.
Dr James N.:Um, so, because we've got that sort of process uh going well, um, it didn't seem as daunting opening up the next location. It's not like we're trying to set up and build a patient list gradually. Um, it's very heavy marketing, very, you know, on the internal work process that uh, yeah, it wasn't too much of a strain on the business to do that.
Dr James M.:Yeah so it gets easier, is what you're saying no no, oh no, definitely not, definitely not.
Dr Katy N.:I thought it was hard first I thought it was hard first doing the um, first practice, and I thought I'll never get harder than that. Now we've got the brand, we've got like how we design things, like we could never possibly have it as hard financially, um, because there was some real like kind of troughs financially as we went through it. We just battled through it, um, and then then opening the second one. I I think that's been so much more stressful because you're changing from a practice into a business, you know, and instead of when you first opened the squat practice fine, you know, we had we had um more than just ourselves. We had a few people all joining together at the same time.
Dr Katy N.:But then this time we had a little personal goal to say can we set this practice up without working in it? Just as I don't know. A little goal, like you know, if we needed to work in it, of course we would, but just a personal goal. You've got so many new people arriving all in one time. You then need to fill the diaries with that for that as well. So you've got to get, you've got to start splitting your business into departments, which is where James comes in for the smartness of all that. To be fair, I can't take credit for this.
Dr James N.:This is James no, it's both of us here for sure. Yeah, yeah, but it's, it's, yeah, it's making everything systemized. I mean you've got to optimize your systems and you, you know, make sure you're marketing that system's nailed and you've got your entire your bookings process, processes nailed and you're you're when the patient comes in, the patient journey inside the practice is nailed and then the follow-up, how your patients fold up. It's all that side that we're trying to optimize when you're not there. So you need your systems to play and you need your managers to be able to manage your systems effectively.
Dr Katy N.:It's really different running two to running one, we've realized so it's difficult in a different way and so many more managers as well, like, instead of having one solo manager that's kind of in charge of so much, you're employing then more managers alongside and you need to make them all work um well together and keep each other in the loop and um, all of that I suppose, like it's just it's very different to what we thought it'd be.
Dr James M.:Yeah, Well, we were talking just off camera, weren't we? About the E-Myth book, weren't we? And we all agreed that the logic in that book is super pertinent for any business that wants to scale not not just scale, but even just grow in the first instance, and to stop, you know, stop taking 18 hours a day of the owner's time, uh. So shout out that book again if anybody has not read it. Who's a listener in dennis invest podcast? Because it's freaking phenomenal. And I didn't read that book for so long because I felt like I'd absorbed all the information in it through osmosis, through conversations, and then I eventually got around to reading it, like six months ago, and I regret that I didn't read it sooner. So if I can inspire anybody to read that book, it plays into exactly what you guys are saying, and I know, James, that you said you were a fan of it as well, right?
Dr James N.:yeah, yeah, for sure, I got recommended it by a good friend of mine. Actually, um, but it's so true and because if you, if you, if you run it as a, yeah, because, in summary, it's like it's very different being the um how do you put it being the business or like being the dentist in the practice to running a dental practice. You know, because it's there's so much margin for error. If you're the main practitioner, you know you're not paying the 40 to 50 associate split. You've got so many. You know potential holes that you're plugging.
Dr James N.:But by the fact that you're being the main practitioner in there, um, you know you might be spending too much on your stock or your lab costs or your marketing or your wages, anything but you can plug. So you can't. You don't realize the holes in your business because you're plugging them easily. Um, and yeah, the difference of um just being the main, being the practitioner in there, versus running the business, it's working in the business versus working on the business. And until you take yourself out of working in it, then you can't get a proper bird's eye view of how your business is actually performing. Uh, is it a business or is actually a ball and chain and you might be better being a, so being an associate, being able to go to cut off at five o'clock and yeah yeah it's a nicer life, yeah yeah, they.
Dr James M.:The in the business on the business adage is the perfect one, and it's it's so true. So many people will be able to relate to that fun fact on the e-myth, by the way, there's actually a dentist specific version it's actually yeah it exists.
Dr James M.:That exists. I think it's american, though so I don't know how applicable it will be to the uk, but it's literally called. I'm just looking at it because this is my bookshelf over here. It's called the E-Myth Revisited the dental version, or something along those lines. It's on Amazon. Oh, really Fun, fun fact. Yeah, take a look at it. It might even be worth a browse. Who knows, there might be something in there to learn.
Dr James N.:That's a good idea. I will probably get that.
Dr James M.:I like my books yeah anyway, yeah, I I'm actually surprised that I haven't picked it up yet. My curiosity more than anything else, even though I don't own a dental practice. I just want to know what it says. But yeah, I'm pretty sure it's american, so I don't know how applicable it'll be, but I'd be interested to hear anyway. What does the future look like for you guys? More squats?
Dr James N.:well, I mean we're currently expanding our first one at the moment, so that's due to open next week, oh yeah um. So we've just added on a couple of extra surgeries um all right in this.
Dr James M.:Yeah, wait, so I've got this right. This is in the second squat. You're adding more surgery to it and they're opening soon.
Dr Katy N.:Correct, first one, the first one, first one, right so we're taking over the full unit next door um at the first one. So it's basically a bit like practice number three, because it's costing the same amount, to be honest. Um, but we're having an on-site lab um, three extra surgeries, a boardroom, upstairs for collaborative uh working between all the dentists, because everyone plays to the strengths um within the practice. So they can, you know, sit with cases and discuss all the different aspects or say what they do like. Just essentially, it's potentially very useful, um, and then the upstairs area. That's for kind of like a lot of behind the yeah yeah, accounts and admin type thing.
Dr James N.:So, yeah, writing that that opens next week, um, touch wood, yeah, if everything goes, okay, yeah, um, but then after yeah, sorry, sorry, yeah, oh no, I was gonna say after that, then it's just, we want to get everything functioning smoothly. Um, so get, yeah, make, build the team, make sure everything's working well, and then, who knows, it would be good to keep going on the business journey. It would be good, for sure.
Dr Katy N.:The reality is is that we're going to keep doing it and we're going to keep doing more branches, even though we keep saying to each other we're going to slow down, but we just can't help it. Like the second, the build is done, we're going to be on to the next one, because I don't really know why but?
Dr James M.:but we've probably definitely. Well, I get, I get it. I get it, though, because it's it's the drive that's got you to where you are, that's still going to be present, even when you get the next one of the next one, of the next one. Are you with me? Like the drive doesn't go anywhere, it's, it continues to be there, and how it manifests is expansion. But that's fine, as long as you're enjoying the journey, right? Is that how you both feel?
Dr James N.:yeah, I mean well more. My idea. The thing I say to Katy is, like, when the sun is shining, make hay and I love that, saying like we live by that it's as things are going well, you know the business, the, the economic climate is doing okay for for our business model and as as the business is is working and functioning well, then take advantage of that, because you never know what might happen in the future of dentistry, in the future of the market. So, um, while you've got the opportunity there, then yeah, you should do it. Well, you've got your health, you've got your time, you've got everything. Then, yeah, you're beautiful to let it go, um, but yeah, yeah it's, it's a sacrifice I'd say I'm.
Dr Katy N.:The issue that we probably have is that I'm very like next thing, next thing, next thing, next thing, next thing. So I'll be like, j right, fantastic, I want to go on holiday now. James, let's do this. James, let's do that. Why don't we move house? Why don't we do another practice? And James like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Dr James M.:Katy, we need to keep a nice, stable, steady ship yeah, I think that's why you're a good team, though, because you have you kind of have to have both energies, don't you? And you kind of balance each other out, right? Is that fair to say?
Dr James N.:yeah, I think. So I think it would be too slow. If it was just me, I'd want. Yeah, I'd be, I'd be a bit slow, um, but then if it's Katy, it'd be very, very fast.
Dr James M.:If it was just me, I say it'd be, and I'm joking, I'll take it back, it'd be too fast and it'd burn down probably if it was me, no yeah, no, I, I know what you mean because it's, it's actually there's actually, you know, the yin and yang. That's the two energies, right? Yang is like the let's do things right. Yin is more like, hey, you know, let's just see what happens or let's just think about it, sort of thing. And there's a reason why the, the little symbol, the little tao symbol, is the way it is. It's kind of because they balance each other out and you have to have both. I found that fascinating when I heard it, and it actually relates to business, because those are the two primaries energies. You have the doer energy and the more passive, receptive energy.
Dr James M.:You were talking about quotes that you really like earlier. There's one that I actually love and that is a calm sea never made a strong sailor. That's good, yeah, right, and it's basically the. If you the sea was, the ocean wasn't choppy, you'd never learn how to muster the ship. You know, handle the ship and be able to control it and what have you. And it's like when you put what you. What it's saying is when you put yourself out there in business. That's sometimes how you learn the best lessons, and that never happens unless you go through that process yeah, it's like I.
Dr James N.:There's a quote that I knew from before we started. Just sorry, you've got my head. But it's like, uh, it's. I heard it from tony robbins whether he said it originally.
Dr James N.:Um, but he said burn the boats yeah um, and it's like, yeah, you have, you know, when you're trying to take over an island, you've got your army. Then the best way to make sure that you take over the island is, when you land on it, to burn the boats, because then you've got no way other than to, you know, to move forward. It's true, and it's like, yeah, so that's what? Yeah, so we had these little things in our heads, these little things we're saying to each other, when we first opened, because, like, we didn't keep our associate jobs, we just went full into it. We were like, just, you have to make it work. And then we've done it again, because I think, when you're expanding, it's just you constantly re-risk and re-risk and re-risk everything you have.
Dr James N.:You've worked for years and you've accumulated some capital and you've um, you know things are going well and you just risk it all again and then do a squat. But yeah, you just constantly have to keep burning the boat let's round things off on a really nice note.
Dr James M.:Let's say James and Katy, right here today, in 2025, could go back and talk to those younger versions of themselves when they were just thinking about starting their squat. They hadn't committed to any path just yet and you could put a hand. James, you could put a hand on that version of yourself on their shoulder, and, Katy, you could do the same to yourself. We could probably have some fun with this, because we could also do what you would say to each other as well, maybe, but let's keep it simple then there will get layers to it.
Dr James M.:Let's keep it simple. So, just speaking to yourselves when you're about to start, you could say one piece of advice. What would that be, Katy?
Dr Katy N.:let's have you first oh, I was gonna say Joe's first. Um, do you know what right I saw for valentine's day? I got James, these cards so we had to speak to each other and like find out so much about each other. Um, I don't really know why, I just saw it on tiktok so I bought it, to be honest. But, um, one of the cards was, um, like what would you, what would you do to change? Or something like that. And I feel like I don't want to come across as arrogant or sound arrogant at all, but I, I don't like to have regrets. So, like, what would I tell myself? Or what would I change? Probably nothing, apart from just like never stop believe this is gonna sound bad, but never stop believing in yourself. Just keep pushing forwards. I don't know, I, I, that's, that's mine. I'm not sure if that's like good or bad that is perfectly good.
Dr James M.:Imagine imagine hearing the you know future version of yourself saying that to you like you're doing the right thing. Imagine how much conviction you'd have.
Dr Katy N.:I still did at the time.
Dr James M.:That's the issue oh right, it wasn't possible to have anymore.
Dr Katy N.:I understand, I understand, for me, my saying has always been where there's a will, there's a way, and I I can remember repeating it to myself like really, really, really young, through exams and everything, and I would just cling to something. And the way that I would look to try and achieve goals is, I'd think to myself, right, Katy, if you pass this exam or if this is successful, how would you feel? And then I'd get you know, get dreams inside my head and I'd be like, okay, if you don't pass your exam and you don't do this, or you don't strive to do this, how are you going to feel? And then I'd think, oh, I'd feel like a failure and like really beat myself up. And then I'd think, right, well, no choice then, and I'd just go for it. So that's kind of.
Dr James M.:I'm very like two extremes wow, that was a little TED talk right there in itself, I love that. I'm so glad I asked that question that developed into its own little pep talk or motivational speak. I freaking love that. That was cool, thank, you, Katy James.
Dr Katy N.:So much more the ted the bar has been set.
Dr James N.:The bar is up here, oh no James is the ted talk person no, no, I'm not, definitely not. Um, I, I think I would say, especially because I was only 25, I think I'd say you've got to still to go for it. You've got, you've still, you've got so much time if anything goes wrong that you can yeah recover.
Dr James N.:So I'd say, you know, the one of the biggest things that's valuable in life that I found is time. You know it's there's never going to be the right time. There's always going to be a reason why you shouldn't do it, um, so I'd say, just go for it. What's the worst? That happens like what's the worst, something that doesn't work, and then where are you back to? You're back to working your associate job and working as a dentist again, which is what you're doing at the moment.
Dr James N.:Yeah, and it's what you're doing at the moment. So you don't lose anything, but instead you've gained the knowledge, you've gained the experience, and you've seen that it's probably not as bad as you think when you fail. So, um, I'd say, go for it.
