E101 | Show What You Love - An Inspiring Conversation with Erica Hawkins

On this episode I get to chat with a brilliant, multi award wining documentary style wedding photographer Erica Hawkins who originally came from a background in filmmaking. 

Some of Erica's awards include Nine Dots Photographer of the Year 2024, This is Reportage Top 10 photographers in the UK, Fearless Top 50 Photographers of the World, TWIA regional winner and the Taylor Wessing Portrait Prize which provided Erica with the opportunity to see her work exhibited in the national portrait gallery!

We talk about everything from filming at Glastonbury as a student, to learning what works in an image while working at a commercial art publishing house. How she transitioned into weddings, battled kidney cancer and overcame imposter syndrome to become a multiple award winning documentary wedding photographer! 

Erica's story is packed full of inspiration and nuggets around capturing images, knowing your numbers and finding balance. She explains her progress for capturing an amazing award winning image that she took while I was working alongside her and she talks about how she feels highlight films can be incorporated into a photography business.

You can check out Erica's work here: https://www.ericahawkinsphotography.co.uk/

On the How to Shoot Hybrid Podcast we talk about all things Photo, Video and Hybrid Shooting!

This is a place for photographers and videographers who want to build successful and sustainable business capturing weddings, live events, working with commercial clients or working on creative projects.

We discuss different topics around photography, filmmaking and business as well as interviewing guests in the photography, filmmaking and hybrid content creation industries.

To discover more about the podcast click this link: https://lnk.bio/howtoshoothybrid

Chapters

• 0:00 Into
• 8:50 Filming at Glastonbury
• 10:00 Getting experience in art publishing
• 13:30 How I thought id be a filmmaker
• 19:40 Imposter syndrome
• 28:30 Fighting cancer
• 32:30 Recognising your personal achievements
• 40:00 Knowing your numbers and finding balance
• 42:30 How Erica see's the difference with photo and film
• 45:00 Getting into documentary style wedding photography
• 48:00 How every frame is a considered frame
• 51:00 Curation - showing what you love to shoot
• 1:02:00 Explaining how Erica captured a real award winning image
• 1:14:00 Awards and how to use them for marketing
• 1:29:00 Incorporating highlight videos into your photography business
• 1:40:00 Quick fire questions

Transcript

Here's what's coming up on this episode. I think if you are producing safe work, you could probably produce a safe highlights video with a photo. You can have one image that is unique and different, and that one image is a singular thing. Yeah. Whereas a video. It's moments combined and moments combined will feel differently than one singular image.

I think what's important is that every frame I take is a considered frame. That's what makes the difference between an amazing picture and not. Show what you want to shoot.

It's the How To Shoot Hybrid Podcast, discussing topics around photography, videography and running a business. My name's Jules, and on this episode, I'm speaking to a brilliant guest, whose work I really love and admire. Erika, do you want to introduce yourself? Hello, thank you for that. Yep, I'm Erika Erika Hawkins, photography, I've been a wedding photographer for 13 years now. And before that my degree was media production. So yeah, that's, that's kind of my very basic background. That's brilliant. And we, we met each other trying to think how long ago it was. Now it was last year, sometime September. Does that sound about right?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, for the best wedding ever. It was such a great wedding, wasn't it? It was. It was a brilliant wedding. Emma and Vicky, is that right? That's right, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was the Barnes. What's the name of the venue again? Cause it's obviously local to you. It's a bit of a driveway from my house.

The Barnes at Redcoats. Barnes at Redcoats. The Barnes at Redcoats. And that, so that was like quite a local venue for you, wasn't it? So you're located. Is it hitching? Yeah, I'm hitching Hertfordshire. So the Redcoats is like a nine minute drive from me. So yeah, it's just around the corner. It's almost, it's almost like a second home.

So yeah, when I met you and you traveled quite far, I was like, Oh, and you were like, what are you doing here? Yeah, it's quite because I always fight because I'm quite local and a lot of my weddings are in Hertfordshire I've always been quite keen to stay close to home because of the kids So when I find people like yourself and you've traveled, you know Like hours and you stayed in the hotel the night before I'm a bit like oh, wow, that's that's like dedication.

That's impressive Yeah, it's really nice. Like it's nice to meet other people further afield, not just Hertfordshire. So yeah, it was great to meet you. Cool. And you. So I really wanted to talk to you for a few different reasons. Because as we photographers, videographers, wedding suppliers normally do, we have a little, when we have a little break and we have something to eat kind of meal time on the wedding day, we have a little chat.

And I remember you kind of telling me that you done kind of like background in media and things. And we'd been talking and you've been asking a few questions and stuff about video things along the day because you were kind of interested in incorporating video and stuff and what have you into your business.

So I thought it'd be a great conversation because of those things. But also, you know, I really enjoyed talking to you because you're really lovely to work with and you work like, obviously I've not worked with you before. So when I, when I'm working alongside of the photographers and I'm, and I'm looking, you know, I have a quick look at your instagram.

I look at your website and I was like, Oh, wow. And it's not very often that I kind of see something where I, you know, I, I, it grabs my attention because you see so many wedding photos and videos these days, everything's got a similar feel to it, or a lot of people's work has got a similar feel to it. So, but when I saw yours, I was like, that's really you know, different as in.

not like wacky, but just very impactive visually. You know, so yeah, so, so I just and then I started looking at it more and I I'd seen, you know, you kind of got some awards and things from like, this is reputation, things like that. So obviously I could see, and then I started realizing yet she's really, really into like the documentary side of things, which I'm really interested in.

So. I thought we'd have a great conversation, but before we kind of go into all of that stuff tell me a little bit about how you got into this, how it all started when you, you know, if you talk about younger Erica and where things, where things kind of started for you in the world of photography and filmmaking and stuff.

Perfect. Yeah, so I think I've always loved telling stories, like that's been a big part of who I am for as long as I can remember. Whenever there was any way of kind of filming at home, like my mum used to hire a camera from her school because we couldn't afford a camcorder, so she would hire these massive big on the shoulder cameras and I remember my dad he like did like a little video where he like clicked his fingers and made us vanish And we were just kids and I was just blown away.

I was like, oh my goodness This is the best tool ever we can do so much with this Yeah, and I kind of got carried away every holiday should bring this camera back and I would just like go up in my bedroom and just film loads and make stories. And, you know, it would be, they were awful. They wouldn't, they were not good in any way.

Like I'd have like a little tape recorder and I would have like a soundtrack player and me and my friends would like act out a horror film. And, you know, as, as I got older, they would progress and I would be doing stop motions with pieces of fruit and things like this. And I just loved. I love telling stories with them and I love just playing around and being creative it was it kind of worked with my kind of instant gratification of kind of seeing something and making it as opposed to sitting down and drawing or painting which seemed to be a skill that like I could I can kind of do but.

I'm quite impatient as well and I think video just kind of was a format that just seemed to, I could really quickly see something coming together. So I think I knew that that was always going to be a path I wanted to explore as I became a teenager and going on to college very quickly I was like, yeah, I want to do media because it feels like it kind of ticks all boxes.

And so I did, I did media at college and then went to university and did media again, but it was media production and management. And this was back in, like, 2001, so it's such a long time ago now, so yeah, 2001. And my degree was, like, great, like, I got the chance to be creative but back then there wasn't that many different ways you could use a media degree.

We didn't have social media then, we didn't, you know, it was kind of like, okay, television or film, what do you want to, What do you want to do? And they were the options, let alone the path there to get into those things. Like that just seemed impossible. And I was kind of like, Oh, I don't know. I want, I want to make films, but that just seemed such a difficult path to follow.

I didn't know anyone in the industry. I didn't really know. It was all very foggy and very hazy. And by, you know, by this point I was then. you know, in my early twenties, kind of at a stage where I was like, well, I feel like, you know, my parents are like, well, it might be quite unrealistic that you're going to become a film director.

So maybe you need to get yourself a job. I was like, Oh, but I really want to do this. And they were like, well, you know, just to see what happens. And obviously those opportunities don't just present themselves. You have to be really. dedicated at trying to find those opportunities and push for them. And I think I got a few bits of work experience in the television, television industry.

And I kind of very quickly thought this isn't the industry for me. I'm, I can't hustle. I'm not, I'm just not like that. I don't have lots of connections to fall back on and I don't feel comfortable. gaining connections in the way that I thought you'd need to, to, to get into the industry. So I kind of thought, okay, I'm going to put this on pause, get a job and figure out what, what, what comes next.

I think for a very small time I had a job, a administration job, and that was for like maybe And after that I was like, whatever job I do, it has to be creative. I'm not, like, I'm not made for admin. Like, I need to, I need to have some way of creating something, even if it's not in the, in the TV industry or the film industry.

I just want to be able to be creative. And I was really lucky that when I was in uni One of my friends started up his own little production company and he was basically working at Glastonbury Filming on stage and the stage called the left field stage And he'd said to me and two of the friends in the class because we were one of the top students But we were doing well, so he was like do you guys want to come along and work for me?

It Glastonbury is no money, but you get to film on just working at Glastonbury. I mean, that's It's such a cool. Sorry, we're not going to pay you. We're like, it's fine. We'd pay you for this opportunity. So it meant that we went to Glastonbury, we got to camp backstage at this left field stage and film the debates and some of the acts that were playing on the stage there.

So that was like such a brilliant experience. It was like such high energy, really full on. We didn't really know what we were doing, but we were just winging it and having the best time. And luckily we got. To do that. I think it was three years in a row. So by the time I'd finished uni, I'd kind of had that on my work, on my, on my CV as, as some experience.

And when I decided I wanted to look for a creative job. One of the jobs I'd seen, I was living in London at the time, was working for an art publishing company. And I was like, oh, I'll give it a go. And you could kind of see how many people had applied. I think it was like 3, 000 people applied for this job.

And I was like, let's just give it a shot. I kind of sent my CV in and I think I followed up with a phone call. And luckily my soon to be boss was she was massively into our music. And me having that Glastonbury on my CV. She was just like, right, let's get her in and that was brilliant. And then, so I had, I know I've had that experience with the Glass 3, I wouldn't have then got the job at the art publishing company.

So then I was working for the art group. I stayed with them for five years. So art publishing is kind of like we get to pick the imagery that gets. It's kind of printed and sold in high streets. And so our biggest account was IKEA. We had people like Habitat or, you know, Argos. All the different little smaller chain next to those kind of people as well.

And then there was a lot of independent shops. So I was working with publishing. We were looking at. What images were working well, generically, which stuff was selling, looking at, like, really amazing artwork on a regular, like, every day, just looking at images for five years, and I think that's had such a huge impact on, on me.

And at the time, I didn't really realize because, because it wasn't being creative. I was in the, in a creative industry. It had, it was. Brilliant, I loved it, but I wasn't taking those pictures or making that art. But it was just drip feeding, it was going in every day. Like, when, when you're studying stats for, you know, the first year of my job was literally just looking at what was selling.

When you're looking at what artwork people like versus what artwork isn't selling, like, that's such a useful tool. And I didn't, I didn't realise that at the time. I didn't realise how that would impact me in the future that I would kind of just have a, I think just a good instinct for what visually is working and what isn't.

But yeah, so the art group gave me that, that kind of foundations. And after being there for five years, I think I was like, I'm, I'm getting to a point where I'm not quite fulfilling that creative side of myself. And I was enjoying. the surroundings, but I kind of knew that it wasn't going to be forever.

And it was at that kind of point I started thinking about what else could I do? And, and yeah, so it was a similar time, I think, the art group wrapped up, the company went into administration in London, and at that point I thought, OK, do I want to kind of pursue art publishing or Now think about the other thing.

And it was, I kind of knew that art publishing wasn't for me. I want to start making my own art in which way art. I didn't think of it as art back then, but I just knew I wanted to create in some form. And, and yeah, so I, I thought the first thing I need is a part time job. I can't, I can't do, I can't start something if I'm working full time.

So that, that was quite important for me to recognize that anyone that starts a business whilst they've got another bit, like while they're working full time, like hats off to them because my, my headspace just doesn't work like that. So like, yeah, I knew I needed something that was like. by the three or four days a week that would give me one day just to focus on or three days to focus on something else.

So I looked around to see if there was any creative jobs that were part time in London and I was really lucky that I got another creative job working for a property marketing company and that was just three days a week and it meant two days a week I could figure out what this next thing was going to be.

And it was while I was there that I kind of thought about weddings and. It wasn't like a thought that just popped into my head, but my friends, again, it was at that point in my life where all my friends were beginning to get married. I was a bridesmaid like seven times in a row, which was a lot over two years.

It was like, Oh, I did the same reading as a lot of them. And so I've got all these dresses. It was brilliant. But it also meant I'd Naturally, just brought my camera with me because I was into photography but I never, I never really thought about it as a, as a career. I always kind of thought, Oh, I love film films.

What I'm going to do. If I'm going to do anything, it would be film and photography was like this. thing that I just enjoyed doing. So when my friends got married, and I was at this stage in my life where I was thinking about what I could do, and I just, I took my camera along, not because I thought about, you know, using it as a portfolio.

It was just why I'm always, I've always got my camera with me. And I started to take the pictures. And a lot of my friends were kind of like, Oh, you know, we really like your pictures. They're really different to what our photographer did. And I just kind of dismissed that as like, well, of course they're different.

I'm your best friend. I'm gonna. Be in your space in a different kind of way than a professional photographer. And like that kind of, that kind of stuck with me, like each one of them was saying the same thing. And then I think someone was like, why don't you think about doing this? And I was like, Oh, not sure.

And at the same point, I think her brother her brother in law was getting married and. Didn't have a photographer and was really relaxed about having someone come along. So I thought, okay, I'll give it a go. And that was my first one. And I wouldn't say I loved it. I was petrified. I remember crying in the evening thinking I'd ruined all their wedding pictures.

And that was kind of the beginning of me and my kind of massive imposter syndrome, which lasted for many years. But that's kind of how it, how it started. And luckily he had friends that were then getting married. Yeah. When abouts is this then? What year was that? Yeah. So we're now, so yeah, that was the, that was 2011.

Right. I did that wedding. So yeah. So kind of like, so that was 14 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So on paper I've been shooting weddings for a long time, but when you factor in imposter syndrome, having babies, like losing a mom, like there's lots of things, a lot of life that happens in the meantime. There's a lot of life that happens.

So yeah, so I'm quite, I'm quite conscious of being like, okay, it's a long time, but I have not, I'm not massively, I always think I'm not massively experienced with someone who's been shooting weddings for 14 years. You know, I think I've shot like 220 odd weddings where some people would do that in like three years.

So I'm a slow burner. No, but I think, I think when you get past I might be wrong, but I, I kind of think when you get past a hundred weddings that you, you know, like when they talk about your 10, 000 hours or whatever it is to become like an expert, when you've done like a hundred weddings, you've, you've done, you've done a lot of, it's not just the shooting on the day, is it?

Because I see it as you learn a lot through editing. Whatever, whatever you're capturing, you learn so much through editing, you learn so much through researching things that you like, whether they be kind of different genres or whether it be people that are working in your space and you see their work and all of this is informing your experience.

And I think as well, based on all the kind of story that you've just said that came, that built up to you actually picking up a camera at a wedding for the first time. I mean, there's, I find that so. Interesting that you were doing the art publishing and you were talking about how you were, you were taking all of that on board.

So, I mean, from like a, when you said about. Learning, we're talking about statistics as in you could see what people, what imagery people were drawn to. Yeah, literally my very first job there was working with the sales team. So they would want me to present them a visual board and it would literally be like this week, this image has sold.

This many prints, and we would see which images have sold really well, and then, you know, and it would go down and all this week, only this one's, you know, this one's not doing well. What do you know what's going wrong? Let's make sure we don't put more images like that into the, into the range because that's just not working.

So it was kind of like understanding what's working, understand what we think is going to work. And, you know, making sure the right images are in front of the buyers so that they pick the right pictures. So yeah, it was, it was amazing because I think what, what that taught me as well, it is understanding that what the mass is like is very different to what I like.

Right. So for example, there was, there was like a picture called Ullswater. You'd know it if, if you saw it, it's like a jetty going out into Ullswater. And that was like one of the top selling prints that we did. And there was another like contemporary artist called Jack and it's like a picture of like a couple dancing on the beach.

It's like a painted picture and there's umbrellas over them and they would just sell constantly. Like they would do so well. And then you'd have some really interesting like street photography. And hardly anyone would buy that. And it just wasn't, it wasn't what the masses wanted. So I think I found that really interesting, just understanding that there's.

artwork that the masses like, and then there's artwork that they don't like. Doesn't mean that's better or worse. It's just understanding that there's popular, popular images, and there's less popular ones. And actually what I gravitate towards is the stuff that is less popular. But all the things, and especially within the company, you know, we're a group of very creative people that I was working alongside.

Yeah. The stuff that we liked often. Wouldn't be the stuff that would sell as well because it's not for the masses, you know, you're, you're, you're making prints for Every day kind of person who doesn't mind just a very nice pretty landscape being on their wall They don't necessarily want quite a urban kind of street photography on their wall or a fashion You know, there's there's like a fine line in terms of what works and what doesn't work So yeah, that was it was really interesting and I didn't really I didn't really acknowledge that experience.

Like when I started shooting my dance, it's taken me years to even understand what impact the art group had on me. I, I, I didn't even clock it, like I didn't even clock it as a skill or as like a unique selling point that I'd be like, Oh, and I've also got all this experience in the art world. So I kind of understand about good compositions and it's never been something that I've kind of, that's where I went to straight away.

I thought you'll have picked up so much from that. Yeah. And that took me ages to even see that. And I think that's why I've spoken before about having imposter syndrome and having it to the point that it was very detrimental to my business. Those first up until 2020 really imposter syndrome was this huge thing for me and it stopped me really, it stopped me kind of.

Push in my business because I didn't, I couldn't get past the fact that I wasn't qualified. I didn't have a photography degree. I thought, I thought that's what everyone needs. And I'm going to find out. I didn't have this. I had this wishy washy degree that gave me all these different skills, but nothing solid.

So I really felt like a fraud and it really scared me. Whereas now being in the industry for as long as I've been and understanding that was quite a unique, unique experience and unique skills that I've had. And I've never really. never really kind of leaned into that at all. But yeah, it's, it's only when you reflect upon it, isn't it, that you can kind of, it's quite obvious.

Someone else had been super confident and would have been able to promote that as this excellent thing, but I was a bit like. Oh, it took me a while to figure that out. I can, I can, I can definitely empathize with that. I mean, there's quite, there's quite a few things going through my head to ask you and talk about.

But like I went, I started my business 2017, 2016, well, 16, I shot my first wedding, but 2017 and I was. I don't know if I don't know if we talked about this. I told you, but I was convinced that I needed credibility. So having been in the police for 13, 14 years and never done anything creative.

So I was convinced that I needed to go and get a degree in photography and media to be kind of credible and ended up like getting a really good grade and finish my course and everything. But I was like, I do look upon it as like the biggest, the biggest waste of time. In terms of Oh, that's really interesting.

Yeah, because I learned far more doing stuff, yeah. But maybe what that gave you is the, not the awful imposter syndrome. Did you feel you still suffered massively from imposter syndrome? I feel like I feel like at the time I was doing the degree And I was building the business. So this is kind of pre COVID.

This is kind of like 2017 to 2020. I literally finished that degree in, in the middle of COVID, like the first lockdown so I kind of, they just stopped us going in to uni and we had to just do it all online. And that was like the end of the degree. But thankfully, I'd already finished. I was just doing my like final bit of the dissertation, but I'd already done all of the practical work and stuff I had to do.

Thankfully. But at the time I was super confident in what I was doing. And it's funny because, you know, I look back and I'm like, yeah, I was all right, but I wasn't, you know, there was a lot of stuff. Yeah. rough around the edges bits. There's a lot of finessing still to do. And I didn't know as much as I thought I did.

And lots of people have that that kind of view, you know, when they look back, they're like, I wasn't as good as I thought I was type thing. But like I did feel confident then I feel less confident today than I did then. Yeah, but I think that's really interesting though, because I think that You, you, you kind of can think that it was a waste of money, but the fact that you felt confident, like I didn't go and get a degree in photography, like even though I had a degree in media, but media production management, I didn't value that the same way as I thought being qualified as a photographer, it would give me this, this special certificate and take away all my doubt.

So I just had this huge, like really loud voice that always was, was. You know, you're a fraud, you know, you don't, you don't know what you're doing. And, and that definitely held me back. And I think had I had more confidence it would have been different things. You know, it would have been different. It definitely would have been different.

And I'm not saying this, I'm, I'm grateful for, for the chance to have learned and, and made those mistakes. I probably wouldn't change it if I could, cause I'm where I am and I feel really lucky to be in that position. But I definitely think that the lack of confidence and the imposter syndrome was a, it was a huge problem for me.

So, yeah, I think if you're not having that, that would, that just, I wasn't, I have it, I have it. I kind of, I kind of have it more now. Now I've finished a degree and my business, I don't know, I think it might, might be something to do with. Then I was just pushing, pushing, pushing, and now I've got too much time almost to think about it and compare myself to other people.

And because like now I'm established it's almost like I'm trying to, I can't think of something to compare it to right now, but there's plenty of things I've heard in the past where people talk about, you know, when you, when you're building something, when you're climbing. and you're on the journey, it's you're not really comparing yourself because you've got nothing to lose.

And then as soon as like you get to where you think you wanted to be, and then you start thinking about it too much because you start thinking, well, you've got too much to lose. And then you start thinking, especially at the moment, we were, we were talking a little bit about bookings and stuff before we started the.

the episode. But, you know, I start thinking there's a lot of new people coming to the industry over the last few years, and I can see there's changes in the industry. And I do feel like I've, you know, I've been distracted a bit on things going on in my personal life rather than a few years ago. I was just like business, business, business, and I'm gonna build it.

And I was all on the ball and moving forward, and I've rested on my laurels a little bit the last few years. So, but that's It's, it's not, it's not a comfortable feeling, but maybe I need to be uncomfortable for a little bit and I need to start, you know, thinking about things more and pushing myself out of my comfort zone again.

Yeah, definitely. I've, I've always kind of, cause I, when I talk about imposter syndrome, I can kind of talk about it from a. before 2020 and after 2020. And I think I see them as two different things. And often when I'm talking to people, I think you can think that compared like, because what we're doing is a creative, like we're making something that is like, we can make very small changes to our, our product and it will look different and it will give a different feel.

So therefore there's a level of subjectivity that comes with what we do. So some, I think sometimes people think that imposter syndrome is when you're not sure you've done something right or you're not sure you're doing it as well as you should, but I don't call that imposter syndrome. I just think that's like creative doubt.

Like we work by ourselves most of the time, so I'm not certain I'm always going to make the right creative decision, but I don't think that's imposter syndrome now. Now I can recognize that as, As being a creative and questioning what decisions I make and as a business owner, it's really important that we question ourselves and we think, are we doing the right thing?

Why? Like, if my bookings are down, what do I need to do? But they're like having any sort of doubt doesn't necessarily. I mean, imposter syndrome, because it just means that you're, it's important to look up, you know, have a microscope underneath your, your work and, and, and your business and think about how we can do things better.

And I think that should always be present. But when, when you've got imposter syndrome that. Stops you charging more than 600 a wedding or means that you're not going to take on more than five bookings in a year because you're so stressed. That's like an irrational way of thinking about your work. And that's what my mindset was like for so many years.

So, yeah, I think I'm kind of conscious that I'm always like, well, it's different because I'm not over imposter, like I'm over imposter syndrome, but that doesn't mean I don't have doubt about my work or what I could do better or, you know, how my business should be moving forward. They're all really important things.

But yeah, I see them as two different, two different topics almost, right? That's interesting. Of course. No, no, no. No, it's great. It really is. It's, it's good to talk about it. So what do you think, what do you think, what do you think changed in, for you in your mind about, about. The whole imposter syndrome and, and kind of your approach to things.

Well, this is, this is one I've talked. Yeah. It's I got cancer in 2020 and and that kind of changed everything. And I was like, Oh my God, this is ridiculous. Ridiculous. Why am I getting so caught up in my brain? And I was really lucky. My treatment was short. I'm, I'm fine. But I, yeah, I had kidney cancer.

I had to have my kidney removed just before the pandemic. And I think that coupled with the pandemic, it kind of gave me time to really think about what I wanted from life. And, and one thing that I felt really disappointed in was this. Energy that I had connected to my business. And this thought process that was just there all the time.

And I kept on thinking, you know, if my, if my kids pick up on how, how I feel about my business and how I feel about my work, like I'd be really sad that they wouldn't think that I had created something I'm proud of. So I kind of changed the narrative in my head a little bit and just kind of. kind of told myself to get over myself and stop, stop dwelling on the things that, that you can't change or, you know, move forward when, when you're not happy with something and, or improve it.

So yeah, that, I think that's been a massive, a massive change, a huge shift, which is why I often refer to pre 2020 and after 2020 because that was such a. Pivotal point for me. I mean, that that something like that happening in your life is going to completely change your perspective on many things, I imagine.

And so, you know, Covid happening around that time, you know, it's kind of I could have assumed that it might have been something to do with with that. But crikey. So Do you feel as, as, did it go away as in like, did you lose the imposter syndrome? Did it kind of just disappear? Or was it an active thing where you've, you've thought, I need to change the way I think about this?

Because, you know, like placing the importance on things. I think it did disappear. Like, I didn't acknowledge it straight away as being something that was gone. It was just, I had a huge, I had something else that was way bigger and way, like, the scariest thing when you get, like, when you find out you've got cancer.

And I'd lost my mom, like, five years before. So, cancer and grief is a huge part of my, my life. So, when I found out I had cancer. All I thought was I'm not going to be here for my kids. I'm going to, I'm not going to be around. And I think when you fully think that, and you know, there's a chance that that has happened, but it just, you're not going to suddenly go, Oh, what about that job?

Did I do the best? Like, you just don't think about it because, you know, for so much of 2020, I was just concerned about being alive. And then when I knew I was going to be okay. Then it was like, right, it's the pandemic. What do we do with this? And I think the pandemic kind of lit a bit of a fuel underneath me and in terms of like, I don't want my business to, I, I, I need this opportunity to prove to myself that I can make this business work.

And bearing in mind the end of 2019 was when I left the up the property marketing company, which had been my part time safety net. So you've gone full time at the same time as well. Oh, wow. Talk about, talk about a lot going on at once. It was, yeah. So it was, it just, it just meant I just didn't have, I had real things to worry about, you know, to worry about real concerns.

And it just, you know, I kind of want to go back and give old Erica a good shake and just be like, Oh, you just spent so much time. It's like being a teenager when all you care about is the fact that you can't get your hair to go straight or, you know, and then you realize as a, when you grow up, you're like, Whoa, that's ridiculous.

Why did I care so much? It's fine. I kind of grew up and I realized how silly it was. And now when I recognize it in other people, I'm kind of like, you do know that. You, you're holding yourself back with the way you're, you're talking or the way you're thinking about your work and, and often I find it in women who have children who are not taking their business.

They're not valuing it in the same way that you need to when it's full time. And I think that it's kind of like they've got this huge imposter syndrome. They don't think that they're, they're worthy of, of. of it being something that is serious. I think that's one of the things that I've, I've now reflected upon.

And I don't think I would have taken on many more bookings, even if I hadn't have had imposter syndrome. I think that there's like a bit of shame about being part time or not doing more than, you know, 30 weddings a year. And, and I think that when you hold that on your shoulders, along with imposter syndrome, it can really stop you thriving.

So like when I see someone else and, you know, they've, they've taken on like, 10 weddings in a year because they've got a baby at home. I'm like, you need to, you're doing, you're doing amazing. You're doing really well. Don't think that you're not thriving. That's, that's brilliant. And, and to recognize that even if you've got a small business, it's.

It's still doing really well, especially if you're a parent and you're doing it around small children. So yeah, I'm, I'm always kind of like when I hear, when I hear that voice in others, I just want them to know that they can do well and they can, even if they've just got 10 bookings to take them 10 bookings as seriously as if they had, you know, 50 bookings, their business is just as important as someone else's.

So yeah. Yeah, for me, you know, a business success should never be about number of bookings or a particular, how, how we measure success is, is completely subjective and personal to the, the, the individual and to the business. And that doesn't get, that doesn't get enough consideration in this industry.

Yeah, because I suppose it can't be measured. It can't be measured. It can't be measured. No, and it's different for everyone. And, and like, I think that was one of the things that, that I definitely did do after 2020. I kind of told myself, what, what does success mean to me? Because I want my kids to look at what I'm doing and understand that I'm working towards something, or I might have achieved something.

And I kind of redefined what, what that goal was. And it was never money. It was never, Oh, I'm going to get this many bookings. I'm going to charge this, this amount. For me, like being successful is running a business. And this is a personal thing to myself, running a business that allows me to have enough time to spend with my family.

So it became like a really obvious equation, which I'd never done this before, where I thought, okay, how many bookings can I comfortably take on where it doesn't intrude with my family life? And I've got my number and then I worked out, well, how many, how much fluff do I need in life? You know, if we want to have holidays and we want to have adventures, what does that figure mean?

And it all became really easy. And then I was like. Oh, okay. Like, so I've got my number, you know, I know that if I hit 10 weddings a year, I don't need to find another job. If I hit 15 weddings a year, we're going to be quite comfortable. 20 weddings a year, we'll probably have a good holiday. So I've got this kind of meter now where I'm kind of like, okay, this is what I'm going to work towards.

And how do I set those goals before, you know, when my children were really young, those numbers would have been different. They might've been, you know, five weddings. But without setting those goals, I wouldn't have, I just didn't realize I was doing well. I just didn't see myself. I just thought, well, I'm not doing 50 weddings, so I'm not successful.

And wow. So now I've set them. And when I, when I tell my kids, I'm like, well, I've got my numbers, guys, I've hit my numbers. And I'm like, we're going on holiday. You know, I make them, I tried to. talk to them about my business so they can see that I'm really proud of what I've created and I'm not this, you know, I try to hide the imposter syndrome voice and the negative voice and I try to show them that, yeah, I love what I'm doing because I do, I genuinely do, so yeah.

I didn't expect the conversation, especially at this point, to actually go there, but that is such a brilliant piece of business advice. Like anybody who's listening to if anybody's earlier on in their career, maybe they are experiencing some of the imposter syndrome feelings like you've explained. Maybe they're not.

Maybe they think they're doing really well, but actually They're not potentially doing as well as they think because their business is consuming them and isn't, as you've just described, it's, I think you've got to have those personal goals and the personal goals do have to be personal to you because comparing yourself to somebody else's measure of success or what somebody else is working towards or wants isn't helpful at all because We're all like, I, I at the moment used to do this with my wife, we worked together.

This was the sole household income for quite a few years. It had to sustain that bearing in mind, we both left careers in the police. So we both used to have decent salary, you know, they were amazing, but there were decent salaries you know, and, and that was the goal was to replace that. So that's kind of where, what the goal was for many years.

The kids were young. We wanted to be able to kind of have that freedom to look after them. Then my wife now has gone back into work because it's what I think she realized that being self employed running her own business was not. The right thing for her and her kind of wellbeing as well as like other things that were happening.

So she's gone back into work and that has changed the dynamics and it's changed now what success is in my business. You know, I needed to scale my workload down because I'm doing more stuff with the kids and most of around the house. And I'm, you know, I'm kind of, I'm adjusting to that. But my business has got to adjust to that.

And I've maybe, you know, like I was, it's funny because maybe I've been thinking a little bit the last sort of year, I'm feeling a little bit not like I'm doing as well because I've, I've purposefully scaled the business back, but like, I need to think of it differently because it's not about that.

Absolutely. I've, I've done it on purpose. I've done it for a reason. Definitely. And I think this is, this was my mindset when I was thinking, oh, I've only got five bookings this year, the year I had a baby. And then I was like, now I can see I just was, it made sense. I needed to only have five bookings. I purposely turned bookings away because it's like I had the foresight to know what the right balance was, but I didn't have the understanding to kind of pat myself on the back for that and go.

well done for not burning out. And I think sometimes there's a trophy given for burning out and if you've managed to avoid it, then you feel like you weren't working hard enough. Yeah. It's like, Oh yeah, you haven't really achieved what you need to burn out to recognize success. And I don't think you need to do that.

I think you can have the foresight to think my family is the priority and this is how I need to juggle. the numbers this year. And I think that's brilliant. And I think by doing that and recognizing what those numbers need to be, you can just be kinder to yourself. I think that's the most important thing is not to it's when you've got the negative voice, that's not, it's not healthy.

So any way that you can feel much more positive about your numbers that you've set. And I think that's it is if you purposely set the numbers to be, you know, you know, lower than 10 or higher than 10 or higher than 20 or 50, you set those numbers for a reason and then you can celebrate them or you can figure out what you need to do to push yourself to get those numbers.

But if you don't have numbers, you're just aimless, aren't you? You kind of just, there's no, there's no way of driving down that road. Yeah. And there's no point in using somebody else's. It's numbers, you know, again, I think when people is when people use numbers of bookings and nobody actually knows what everybody, not only do they not know what's going on in their lives and how they run their business and how much time it takes them to do X, Y and Z, but they don't know what they're going on in their personal life and they don't know actually what they're charging.

And so when someone says, Oh, I do, I do, I do 50 weddings a year and somebody else says I do 10 weddings a year, the person who's doing 10 weddings might actually have a better business than the person at 50, but no one really is talking about that. They're just talking about, it's almost like a badge of honour.

I've done loads of weddings or whatever. So yeah, it's personal to everybody, isn't it? Definitely. Absolutely. So we'll go, we'll rewind a little bit. Tell me a little bit then you talked about film. And that was where your creative passion, you know, was but you ended up doing a couple of wedding photos and stuff for friends and people you knew, and then that's kind of how that, that took off.

So, did you not fancy doing wedding videography? I'm guessing 2011 wedding videography would have looked very different to what it does today. It did. I definitely thought about it when, when I kind of decided to do it. To do weddings, to give it a good go. I was really torn. I kept on thinking, should I be doing videography or should I do photography?

And I was kind of, I'm in an hour and about them both for a while. But bearing in mind, I was working for the property marketing company and their job was, was all photography based. So I think I probably was slightly leaning towards, okay, this is something I know I'm learning about, you know. editing pictures, you know, retouching, you know, raw pictures.

I was learning a lot more about photography. And I think I had stepped, it'd been a long time since I had really kind of dabbled in videography. So I think photography felt like the one that I, it just, it just suddenly became like, no, no, let's give this one a shot now. And I think I felt less excited about telling a wedding story.

Like the thing with what I loved about film. is creating a story and using film to tell that story. So when it comes to wedding videos, the story kind of feels like it's already there. Which is kind of different to how I think about my photography, but I, I feel that it must, I wouldn't know how I would approach doing a wedding in my style now, because I would want the wedding video to be unique.

With a photo, you can have one image that is unique and different. And that one image is a singular thing. Whereas a video. It's moments combined and moments combined will feel differently than one singular image. So, yeah, I feel like the story, the story is already set with video in a slightly different way than it is with photography.

So yeah, photography, photography won that battle. I guess I do understand what you're saying there, because yeah, you could say, well, with, with photography, with wedding photography, the star is already set. We all know they're going to get married. There's going to be certain points in the day, but I suppose And if you, I'll say at this point, if you haven't checked out Erika's work and you are listening or watching this, you should go and have a look at her website and social media, because I totally understand what you're saying, the way that you, especially, I mean, I imagine if I looked at your full gallery, as with most people's, there's going to be a lot of, photos from the day that are fairly generic and everybody's taking them.

But the ones that you show and the ones that are in your portfolio, they are very much, you know, like you've, and I'm going to ask you some questions about this, but I feel like you've really thought about it. And even if you haven't completely kind of manufactured the image in your head before you took it, you've got an idea of what you want it to look like.

And you're just looking for the opportunity to do that. So, and because of that, they're not generic wedding photos. They are literally telling a story in that one frame. So Can you tell me a little bit more about how did you get into doing the documentary style and and how did you develop that a little bit?

Yeah, I think it took me a little while to find my photographic voice, I should say. I kind of look back at some of my work that I took from that very first wedding, which is an interesting viewing. There's pictures, there's

There's images in there that are what I would say are my style, which are authentic, interestingly composed non setup so there's, there's definitely those moments in the gallery, but they're very, they're, they're quite small, not many of them. And then I can, then there's a whole heap load of very generic images.

You know, by looking down at her bouquet by the window and, you know, groomsmen walking to the cameras, all that kind of stuff, which I thought I needed to do a lot of to. to take wedding pictures. But even at that point I was still inspired by good wedding photographers. And I already knew that there was a genre that was outside of the typical, you know, generic wedding photography.

And I just didn't see myself as being something that would ever fall into that. Again, That's partly the imposter syndrome, but so I kind of leant into making sure that I was kind of ticking the boxes and I was doing, you know, and my clients knew that I was inexperienced. I was very honest and I kind of said, yeah, I've never shot wedding before.

So they had a lot more kind of influence over me. They would send me lists. Some of the lists I would get would be like, I'd like a picture of my dress on the back of a chair. I'd like my shoes by the window. And I'd be like, right. Okay. And I'd spend my day ticking off this list and, you know, after a few weddings, I'd be like, okay, I'm not going to ask for lists because I'm getting really distracted going against these lists.

And, you know, I would do fewer and fewer pictures of the shoes by the window and the dress hanging up. And so I kind of knew which pictures I liked. And again, this, I think this. came back to the art group where I instinctively knew the pictures that I was drawn to. And then there was all the pictures that my couples would like.

And I don't, when I say the term generic, I don't mean that in a bad way at all. It's more what I would say, the mass, the mass market, the stuff that lots of people like. And I think that as my, as the years have progressed, I kind of think of it as like a, like a iceberg, like the stuff I show on, on.

Instagram is like the tip of my galleries and over the years, like those first weddings, maybe there was like a few pictures in that very tip. And then as the years have gone on, there's, there's a few more and a few more and the iceberg has kind of gotten the generic stuff. There's a lot less of it underneath.

But. Ultimately, I can't take a whole wedding gallery that looks like my Instagram and I would hate a client to book me thinking that their whole day is going to look, every frame is going to be massively unique because it isn't. And, you know, I'm really careful that my couples know what to expect. I send them galleries and I think what's important is that every frame I take is a considered frame.

That's, that's what I try to do. And I always kind of ask myself, what am I trying to get from this picture. Even if it's someone having their makeup taken and it's a very normal moment, a normal scene that you get at the wedding. I still kind of think about what am I wanting from this frame? What's this frame going to do?

Is it just going to show the bride she's getting ready in this space? And if it is, that's not a bad thing, but how am I going to tell it? Do I want to go wide? Do I want to make sure I'm, you know, shooting nice and wide? Do I want to incorporate all this stuff, or do I not want to incorporate it all, or can I shoot through the dresses and do something creative?

So I'm constantly thinking about Each frame and I think that's what I would say. Yeah, my, my, my composition is very considered because I'm wanting the gallery as a whole to pull together and, you know, the interesting kind of more unique images they kind of anchor around. other moments that are well composed.

And then there'll be stuff that is very much for the couple, you know, that they're going to love, but I'm less excited by. So yeah, I think my, coming back to your question, I think my, my style has always been there, always been present. But I've just, As I found my confidence, I've just had the ratio of how much is in that gallery has just increased.

I felt a bit more comfortable putting more images in. I was really, I found it really interesting last year so some of the wedding competitions that I do is I do Fearless, this is Repertage and Nine Dots. They're the kind of the main ones that I do. And I entered a picture to Fearless, which I took, it was my fourth wedding I'd ever shot.

And it was two bridesmaids on a fence planking. That's how old the picture was because they were planking. I don't know if you remember planking. I do remember planking. Yeah. I think I've seen it actually. Did one of them fall off? Yeah. Yeah. One of them falls off. So that was my fourth, my fourth wedding I'd shot.

Right. It might have even been my third wedding. I looked at, I was charging 600 pounds, so they, yeah, that was super cheap. Really new, but I was still looking for those moments and I was still composing them in a way that I thought was interesting or necessary to tell that story. in that way. So, but you know, in, in, in amongst their gallery, you'd have still had quite a lot of portraits, which you wouldn't have as many now.

And you'd have still had probably her looking down at her bouquet. So there was, there was still a lot of the very generic stuff, but yeah, it's become less and less as my confidence has moved on. So, yeah. So would you say, and the reason I asked this question is, is like a, it's, this is. Personal as in I'm interested because I like that style of photography, but I struggle, struggle to struggle to get the, you know, I like look at your portfolio and some other people's portfolios are so good at documentary stuff and I sort of think, well, did they, have they got the opportunities because the couples?

See the stuff and then they attract the right couple and then that leads to further opportunities or is it your eye and your intentionality that gets better or is it a combination of both? What would you say in terms of if there's people that really want to get into that? Yeah, I would say it's definitely a combination of, of them both.

I think one thing I've always done, and this was taught to me, so I did a workshop in, I think it was 2018 or 19 a guy called Alan Law, who runs This Is Rapid College. Yeah, and our last school, yeah, last school, yeah. Yeah, it's brilliant. So I did his, it was the very first workshop I'd ever done and You know, he often says, like, show what you want to shoot.

If you don't want to show loads of portraits, don't show loads of portraits. So you need to show what you want to shoot. So I'm really caught, like, with Instagram, you'll rarely find couple portraits. Because I actually do like shooting couple portraits, but for me, it's my way of filtering clients. Because the people that love portraits, they're not going to book me.

So there's no point in me putting portraits on, because then they might book me, and then they'll get you know, other pictures that they don't like. So I want to show people what most of their gallery is going to be the authentic unposed moments. And that's what my Instagram account is. What I would say is that most of my couples, once they inquire, they seem to know straightaway.

what they're going to get. They, they, they're kind of reflecting back to me what I've already kind of put out there in terms of Instagram or on my website. They're kind of echoing what I'm looking for. They quickly say, I don't want posed, I don't want hardly any posed pictures. I just want to enjoy the day.

You know, all the kinds of things I kind of say. In my branding. So I kind of know that the filters work in every now and again, I'll get a rogue inquiry and it'd be like, Oh, we're having a really romantic wedding. I want it to be, I think someone wants to use the term a princess and I was like, I'm not, I'm not sure how you snuck through, but I don't think I'm the right photographer for you.

But yeah, so more often than not, I'm getting clients that are straight away on the same page as me. And I think by showing them what I like shooting. They're recognizing what their gallery potentially is going to look like. And, and they're not seeing a whole load of pretty couple portraits. They're seeing guests laughing.

They're seeing, you know, people being daft. They're seeing little tender moments that are obviously real. So yeah, they've got a good understanding. I do think the more. I think our industry is interesting. I think that lots of high energy weddings tend to be the ones that can win awards. And I do think that the more you show of that kind of stuff, the more than you get bookings that are high energy, the more than that you win those kinds of.

Awards and it kind of, it can go in a big circle. The, the wedding we did together was probably one of my most high energy weddings I've ever shot. It was brilliant. I loved it. But it was quite unique in the sense that most of my weddings aren't that kind of high energy. I have lots of weddings that I would say are very Normal is the wrong word because that makes Vicky appear to seem like they're not.

No, but it was, it was a unique, it was a unique day. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was, it was everything I wanted as a photographer in terms of making my job as fun and as, you know, easy peasy as I possibly could want it and different things happening. But most of my weddings aren't like that. Most of my weddings are very Again, I don't want to use the term generic because that feels unkind, but it's, it's just, they're, they're, they're just normal weddings.

And you know, I shoot at the same venue loads. I, you know, I'm at Redcoats more often than not. And I've got another few venues that I'm shooting at in Hertfordshire. But for me, that's, it's, as long as I can connect to the people, as long as I feel comfortable with the people I'm shooting, then every wedding feels different.

And I think that's what I try to show on my Instagram, is that I'm not, I'm not trying to attract a type of couple, I'm trying to just attract people that like my photography. Because then then they'll, they'll let me do I do without me kind of worrying that I'm going to deliver pictures they don't like.

So, yeah, so I, I don't think I've got a type, but I definitely think if you want to shoot high energy weddings and you need to show high energy weddings, you want to shoot portraits. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's, it's important to yeah, find, find what, what you like doing and just show that really. That's great advice.

Did that answer the question? Yeah, it did. And there's a, there's a, there's a couple of questions that I've got. So I, I've, I have massively struggled with that in terms of showing, you know what? And maybe it's because I never really got 100 percent sure on what I, what I wanted to shoot. So how did you, did you just know this is what you, what you wanted to shoot?

And so it was easy to pick those images and start showing them. And then all of your branding just fell into place. Or did you ever feel? As I, as I have at times, you know, a bit conflicted, like, well, I do like different, I do like different aspects of weddings. I do like you talked about the portraits.

Like, I don't know why, but I show a lot of portraits on my website and stuff. I tend to post if I don't post on instagram anywhere near enough as I should, but I tend to post. I ended up posting portraits and I'm like, why am I posting these? I don't even, you know, I don't even, these aren't really, this isn't what I connect with.

So how did you, how did you go about that? Yeah, I think again, it was after Alan's workshop. I kind of thought about what I liked and I don't, I didn't like, I like a portrait, but I don't love a portrait. Right. I just show what I love, really, show what I like is the wrong word, show what you love. So the stuff I put on Instagram are shots I really love.

And I kind of figure that, like, I've never brought, like, I have a really small Instagram following, like, I, for someone who's done quite well in terms of different awards, I'm like, how come some people have got, you know, 50, 000 followers or 11, 000 followers. And I've got 2000 followers and I've had work in the national portrait gallery, or, you know, what I just can't, I can't gain followers.

Most of my followers are photographers, but I just really struggle with Instagram. But what I do know is I've, I've never posted pictures for likes. I've never worried about the fact that a picture I love might only get a small number of likes, but I'm fine with that. I don't mind that. You've done it for yourself.

I've got friends that are like. I've done it for myself, yeah, and I think I know what pictures I like, so therefore I just show the ones. That I like. Or I've got friends who are like, Oh, if I don't put a portrait up, I don't get as many likes. If I include a really pretty, you know, pretty gold nail picture, I get loads of likes.

And so there, therefore you're led by, you think the likes are the thing that's the most important. Whereas for me, it's not, it's just, I would like to, I just want to use Instagram to show what images I enjoy shooting. And, and that has definitely then meant I'm attracting people that. And I know that I filter out a lot of people that wouldn't want me.

So yeah, I think, I think if you don't know what your style is, if you're not sure what pictures are singing to you, that's harder, but if you do know, and you're worrying that people won't like it, then I would just say, just, just get it out there because you won't know. And if you just follow what, what is a very safe path, then you're just going to get very safe.

Generic stuff. Yeah. Be very. Yeah. Yeah. So I think don't be, just kind of start putting it out. Don't take too much notice of your likes. And just 'cause then I love looking back at my Instagram and seeing all the pictures I like, I'm like, oh, I feel that makes me feel good. I feel really proud when I look at that.

And that's, if I put work on that, I was less proud of it. I'd just be a bit like, oh, okay. That's so good to hear, though. You know, like, because you like 20 minutes ago, you're talking to me about imposter syndrome. And then now you just said, you just said, like, you love looking back at your Instagram because no, because like, obviously, you know, that's That's exactly what, it's, thank you, because you've just reminded me what I should have been doing for the past few years, which is, is actually just, you know, what I connect with, what I like, I should have stuck with that, rather than You know, thinking, well, what's the industry doing and what do people seem to like and being so confused and conflicted between those things.

Cause that that's where I've probably sat for the past few years post COVID. Before that, I kind of knew what I liked and I knew what I was doing and did seem a lot in business did seem a lot easier. Cause I, I kind of, I was very much video. Back then, I did some photo, but not as much photo back then.

And it was mainly video. And you know, everybody really liked the cinematic kind of slow, you know, type videos. And I really liked, I liked doing different things. I liked it to be based around the couple. But I liked a bit more energy and a bit more personality that didn't always lend itself to the kind of slow cinematic because not every couple is romantic and lovey dovey and they want that sort of thing.

So I kind of love doing that and I loved it when I got those. And they were always my favorite weddings and they were always my favorite couples. And I always really like got on with them and they always sent me really great kind of like feedback and reviews. And I enjoyed the wedding out there. They ended up making the portfolio, but then I'd get this mix of.

clientele. And then I think, well, I don't really know what I'm supposed to post, but you've just, you have just, you know, because I connect so much with your work and then just having that conversation that's, that's really solidified it to me. You know, it's reminded me what I should have been doing. So thank you for that.

Definitely. No worries. Yeah, no, I think it's, it's, yeah, it's important. Definitely important. So back to kind of let's go to, I mean, Vicky's wedding, there was one particular shot that you got about some drinking shots. And and so I was interested to know because I could go through and pick so many images from your portfolio and ask you How did that work out?

What's the story behind that? But I was really interested cause we were shooting the same thing and we were stood near each other. And it's very different when you're shooting videos to photo, because obviously I can't, I can't edit in the same way and I can't necessarily get the exact same perspective.

You, you got a very unique perspective on that. And so did you? How would you come to that? Did you think about that before it happened? And just to sort of anybody who's listening and has no idea because I can throw the image up on the screen. But kind of explain it. They all of the guests were doing a shot, weren't they?

In the towards the end of the ceremony. It was a celebrant led ceremony, so it was very relaxed. They've done all the formal bit and then they got everybody poured a shot and then they took a shot and you were stood near the couple. So tell me how, because the perspective you got on it was, I mean, I don't know if you've won an award for that.

I, I think you should, I've won every award for that image, which is ridiculous. I've got a fearless award. I've got, this is reportage award. I've got a nine dots award. So that, that one is a really good example to talk about. Cause that was, go on then talk about your thought process. So if, so if you remember, so during the service they were giving out these little bottles of, I can't remember what the drink was, but because we were up, we were slightly elevated during the, the service and obviously being a single shooter, I tried to walk around and get as many different angles as I can.

I don't want to just stay in one spot. Yep. So I had, I jumped kind of down and I got some closeups of the family getting their shots. I kind of could see them all being handed out. And as I was down there, I start to think, where do I want, they're going to, they're going to do it all at the same time. I can, this is.

It's leading in that direction. Where do I want this picture? And it felt like an instant, obviously I want everyone. I could have just focused on the couple. I could have focused on Vicky and Emma and have them doing a shot. But to me, the thing that was interesting was that there's a hundred other people doing a shot as well.

So straight away I knew I needed to get back up on the grain store and shoot from up there. And then as I'm kind of growing up, I'm thinking it would be really great if I can also have. Vicky and Emma in the, in the frame as well. So which then straight away means I then have to get myself, I need to get my camera up high and I need to kind of pause.

I don't know if you remember, I was like, Oh, this is hurting my back. I was there for a while waiting for the moment to happen. And I was thinking at one moment I had. Both sets of the guests, because there was an aisle down the middle, so you've got one side and the other side. And I had Vicky, Vicky one side and Emma the other side, and I was like, Oh my goodness, they're going to line up, they're going to do their shots at the same time, and they're going to be framing the, you know, the people behind them.

And I was like, this is amazing. And I, in time, I was getting excited. I was like, this is so brilliant. And I had my camera there and I'm waiting. And just as it happens, I think it was Vicky. Turn from her position and she was facing the crowd as opposed to having her side profile like Emma had. And she just turned and my heart sank and I was like, fuck, fuck, fuck.

I was like, I knew it was, I knew it was still a good shot, but it wasn't the moment that had just kind of played out. You know, had they both been, had both side profiles with all the guests, that would have, I was like, that was, that was the shot I was wanting. And the shot that happened as. Weddings are a live event and you've got no control over it.

Something, someone moved and it changed it. So I kind of like, I was less excited about it because I knew it hadn't quite panned out, but I was still excited. I wanted to kind of get home and have a good look. And as that wedding played out, there was so many moments that were brilliant. So I got home. I think I was exhausted because it was such a high energy wedding and there was so much going on, but I kind of jumped on and started to pull together their sneak.

First look and then I got to this picture and I was I was like, oh, it's really annoying that Vicky turned her head. I've just got this little blob and what can I do? And I am a big fan of cropping. Like I crop a lot of my pictures and this is what I can do that videographers couldn't do. Often I will use.

I think of cropping as a, you know, as a way to reframe an image that I, you know, cause there's a story that I want to tell. And if there's distractions and bits going on, I just get rid of them. Like I just crop them out. Cropping is like a skill that I think people are sometimes too embarrassed. Like it's fine to crop your pictures.

It's as photographers. Cropping is a. You know, it's a little magic thing up your sleeve, and if you're not cropping, sometimes that's what makes the difference between an amazing picture and not, and, you know, so I'm a big fan of cropping, I just want to get that out there so I cropped, I looked at the picture, first of all I edited it, and I looked, and I was like, yep, it's, it's good, and then I just thought, no, I'm going to get, I'm going to see what happens if I get rid of Vicky's head, and just have this side of, of the guests.

And I did it and as I pulled it in and I was like, oh, and then the feelings came back and I was like, oh, I love it again and I called my husband and I was like, come and look, come and look and he was like, oh, that's awesome. Well done. Because he's, yeah, I have to show him all my pictures that I like, unfortunately for him.

So I was really chuffed with it. And all of a sudden it had gone from being a picture that. I felt wasn't quite what I wanted it to be, to be in something I absolutely loved. And, and yeah, and that was, that was, that was how I did it, but it definitely, yeah, the, the moment I saw the moment I thought it was going to pan out to be something epic.

It changed, I disappointed then getting home and working on the edit and it just brought it back. So, so yeah, that's kind of the story behind that one. Yeah. And it is a. I mean, so many of your images are standout as in the, the, the, the, you know, you look at them and you stop scrolling, but that one, I remember seeing it and I guess I don't think I've ever been in that situation before where I was capturing exactly the same thing and I've thought, why the fuck didn't I think of that?

You know, like I just kind of captured it in this like, you know, generic and, and I kind of, you know, the, I watched, it's, it's slightly different because obviously did you, did you do, you think you did it in black and white, didn't you? And you've got so much more room to kind of draw things out when you edit a photo because you, cause you can mess with the contrast and stuff a lot more, but it just, you know, I remember seeing it and I'm like, I'd just filmed it, you know, and I'd filmed it near you, you know, I was near where you were so I was getting the perspective from behind and I've got all the cameras as well technically that I can kind of look, look at and draw images from, but I just remember seeing it thinking, oh, the way that you'd angled everything.

And then the way that you'd got and there's like, you know, the, the, the crowd, there was like these leading lines coming from the crowd and then you could just tell that the couple were in this corner of the frame, but you weren't focused on them. And it, it was, it was telling you didn't have, I was there and I know what happened, but if you hadn't have been there.

You got, it was better than being there. Let's put it that way. So it was, you know, like the image was better than the actual thing. Yeah, it was definitely, it's definitely one of those images that I feel really proud of because I knew a hundred, I knew a hundred percent what I wanted. I knew that I wanted them, their silhouettes framing and because of the way.

That the light was falling, they were almost a shadow. So, I think that those kind of quick decisions where you're like, Okay, who am I, who am I exposing for? Is it the couple? Because if I expose for the couple, it would have changed how bright the background would have been. And therefore, so that's the, that's the kind of offset.

It's making those very quick decisions. I shoot everything manually because I think it gives me much more control. I'm quite quick at making those decisions about. Who am I exposing for and quickly make, make, I don't trust my cameras to get it right. So I just do it myself. And know it, knowing that I didn't need to expose for the couple.

I didn't need to see all their features because I had this good shape, which is important when you're doing a silhouette. So those kinds of things. I think that's why I'm really proud of that picture, especially because, you know, although it was cropped differently, the intention, you know, it would have just been the symmetrical version of what we had, but there would have been two brides, so it could have been even better.

But, you know, for a moment I had both the brides, you know, taking a shot, silhouetted against two different you know, parts of their guests. So yeah, I think it's. It's making those quick judgments, but I know, but like, I think when you're a videographer, I think this is why I prefer photography in terms of a format for weddings, in terms of being a shooter, not, not as overall.

I, I believe, like, I love editing my pictures. Like, I, I think that that's your second chance to be creative and to make something unique and magical. I know a lot of photographers don't enjoy editing. And I do find it like there's a bulk, you know, I've got my highlights every, every couple, every wedding.

I've got like 300 images I'll massively enjoy editing and then there's 400 that I'm like, okay, get these ones done. But those 300, I really enjoy and I love seeing what I can. Due to a picture to elevate it to a different level and that was a good example of it needed work It needed tweaking it needed changing.

And I don't care about the fact it's cropped because I know there's some snobbery in the industry about No, it needs to be I mean these straight out the camera needs to look and I don't buy into that. So These days with, with all the AI stuff and people just putting things in and taking things out of images, I don't think cropping is a concern at all.

I think you know, it's never, it's never been something that's bothered me. And I, yeah, I just think if I can make an awesome picture by cropping it differently, yeah. And my couples are going to appreciate the fact I've done that. So And yeah, I mean, there's so many like there's so many things I could different directions I could go off, but just to kind of move it on from there.

So, like you just said then about the editing because again, you enjoy, you enjoy editing the photo because you've got that level of creativity and that second chance of making the picture. So interesting because like these days, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Most photographers, everybody's trying to get editing off their workload.

You know, they're trying to find someone else to do it or something else to do it for them. So to kind of hear that you enjoy doing it, that's, you know, that's really good as well because it says a lot, doesn't it? That you maybe a lot, there's a lot of people out there that aren't thinking, Oh, I'm not fully happy with what I do, what I create.

Yeah. But, you know, it's not sometimes you've got to spend that time. I certainly think you've got to learn editing because, like, you see how you're making the mistakes in camera as well, and that definitely influences your learning. I have to say, I still use I use AI. So I still use imagine AI or imagine whatever they call it, to do like the bulk, yeah, edit.

So, but that, but what I do is that that just, it's almost like nowadays I'm paying just for my preset, my look to be as good as it can be. And then comes the, what I call the proper edited, which is just, you know, making sure it's, so I would never pay to crop my images or straighten them. Like that, that's, that's what I want to do.

So. Yeah, it's become a very expensive way of editing because I send it off, it comes back, it all looks lovely and then I go for each picture and edit, change them. Yeah, and tweak it to ridiculous amounts that I think makes a difference, but probably doesn't make any difference. No, but it clearly does.

If that's, you know, you're making, you're making those images and it is so, so like to segue into kind of the awards and stuff, because obviously it's making a difference because not everybody is, not everybody is getting that recognition from making. These amazing, you know, unique photos. So tell me a little bit about that.

When did you start entering for different awards and things and how has that affected, impacted your business? Again, Alan, Alan Knorr, he's he, I tell him and he goes, gets all embarrassed, but he was the reason I entered any competitions. So bearing in mind, I kind of mentioned that I had huge imposter syndrome.

So when I did Alan's workshop, which was the first workshop I'd done he is the founder of This Is Repertoire, so he talks about the benefits of entering awards, not, not in a way of like, enter my award, he just kind of says, you know. You can, and I always thought awards were for professionals. And I, again, because I didn't have, you didn't feel like you were professional.

I did. No, I didn't. I genuinely couldn't. I felt embarrassed telling people what I did because I felt like I was lying. I was like, well, I think I'm kind of, it was such a huge thing, but like back then, so when I did Alan's workshop and he was explaining how You know, when winning awards is great for marketing, it's a good way of selling yourself if you feel, you know, if you're not feeling confident and you've won an award, you know, popping up that you've won this award, there's a ton of different bodies that offer awards and to make sure that your work is in line with the people you're, you know, whose work you're entering competitions for.

Yeah. anyone can enter awards. And I think that's, for some reason, that hit home. I was listening to him and I was like, I've never, I could never enter, I just didn't think I, I, I qualified. But I came away from his workshop and I was like, okay, well, I don't feel like I've got any weddings that are good enough to win awards.

But I had a picture of my son that I'd taken when he had chicken pots in the bath and I was like, oh, but That picture's pretty good. I can kind of recognize that's a good picture. Let me see if there's any, any family awards going on. And I was just kind of Googling different awards and the Taylor Wesson Portrait Prize came up.

And I have to be honest, I didn't know a ton about the Taylor Wesson Portrait Prize before I entered it. But it's like one of the most prestigious photography portrait awards. that you can enter. And you know, if your work gets selected, it ends up in the National Portrait Gallery. And so I was just kind of like, let's give this one a go.

I'll send this picture off of Jacob and see what happens. And yeah, like roll forward a few months. And I got, got the email saying that I'd been selected and that I was going to have a portrait in the National Portrait Gallery. Which is, which is crazy because yeah, you're like, oh, I've got imposter syndrome and you know, I don't.

Feel up like worthy of it and unreal. And then you've, and then you've just kind of, it didn't, it didn't take that away though. It didn't change that feeling. And I think that's what, what I've, again, another thing that I've realized, like when my first, I've mentioned this before, like when, so they have like this big open evening where you can open evening when I have the, the open night of the exhibition and you've got all the artists kind of walking around and there's some press there and everyone's kind of looking at her work and.

The most, you know, amazing evening to be part of is like such a highlight of my career. But my first, like the first 15 minutes of that experience, all I was doing was criticizing my image. And I was like, what? This doesn't belong here. It's not very good. This is a mistake. And, and I realized in that moment what I was doing and I was ruining the highlight of my career.

And I kind of recognized how powerful that negative voice was. So I kind of like, stop, stop doing this, like, enjoy the moment. And I was able to park it. I pushed it to one side and, and, you know, love the experience, kind of came home. And then like the voice kind of comes back and it's like, well, you didn't win that for your wedding work, though, did you, Erica?

So, you know, it's just a picture. You just, you know, you're a mom. You just got a good shot of your kid in the bath. It starts kind of you know, shouting loudly in my head again. And, and that's why I recognize it as being a real detrimental thing because my mental health, well, I'm, I'm more often than not, I'm a super upbeat and positive person.

And even when I'm on an off day, I'm, I'm more cheery than I am like downbeat. Yeah. But that voice was always there, even being, even being quite a happy person, that voice is kind of, was always kind of whispering and kind of. Just not giving me the opportunity just to enjoy photography. So, yeah, I kind of said to myself, well, You're not really a good wedding photographer until you start winning some awards from like This Is Repertage or, you know, Fearless or, you know, if Alan Moore ever asks you to be on his podcast, that's, that, that will be the point I can stop thinking about, you know, your imposter syndrome and, you know, role models.

So you've done all those things now. I have done all those things, but they, at that point, but they weren't, that's what I'm trying to say. They're not the things that took my imposter syndrome away. And that's what's really, which, which is, yeah, but I, I got a, this is repertized award and straight, but almost straight away, I think I won two in the.

one of the first in the rounds. And I was like, Oh, but that was quite, and again, it's just starts again. And I realized that it, it was all about my mental health and how I felt about my self worth as a photographer. It was nothing to do with the achievements I was, I was getting. They weren't, I think, and had I not have had.

I'd like to think it would have gone anyway, but had I not had cancer, I probably still would be doing it and I would just be finding other reasons to kind of take that value away from whatever award I'd won. So yeah, it's definitely it's a bit of a blessing that that voice has gone now and I can celebrate my wins a bit more.

But it's, it's something that I think just because you win awards doesn't mean that you haven't got a really strong negative voice in your head. Because as well awards aren't, they're not. They're not all that. Like, I think the industry, we know that it's a bit smoke and mirrors really. I think there's a load of people who are amazing that don't enter awards.

So you never, like, I think I don't buy into awards in the same way that I think it's important not to put anyone on a pedestal in the industry. I think it's something that has been beneficial is just seeing us all as just, we're just. We do things differently and I might win some awards for this, that or the other, but it's, it's not really that relevant.

It's kind of helps me sell to my clients, but it's, it's sad when you hear what awards can do to other people and how it can make them feel quite low about themselves if they haven't won or to not have the confidence to enter. So I think it's always important to, I love them. I love winning them, but I also don't.

Don't get caught up anymore if I don't win them, because yeah, you don't rest everything on it. It's, it's kind of no, yeah, you've, you've kind of, you take what you take, well, it sounds like you take the good parts from it and don't get too caught up in, in the hype which is good, which is definitely because of the year before last, like I didn't win any awards.

So I think I won one and I'd entered everyone, you know, religiously again, and I hadn't picked up anything. Yeah. Oh, well, I hadn't done anywhere near as well as I'd done this year. And, and, you know, and I think that if I'd gotten really caught up in my own thoughts about that, I'd have been really like, oh, but I don't just because again, life's too short and I'm not going to worry about.

If I've won an award, and I think what's important is not devaluing the work that you love. If it hasn't won an award because there's images, some of my favorite images have never won any awards and I still love them and I'm okay with that. And if they haven't resonated with those judges, they're just wrong.

I don't know what they're doing. I'll be honest. I'll be honest, you know, on the, on the topic of awards, I I'm always intrigued by, by kind of how people. How people feel about them and entering them because I, I haven't really ever, ever done that. And I think I've not done it because I, I do think I'd be one of those people that if I didn't, if I didn't win anything and not, not that I'd have to win all the time or anything, but if I like, if I felt like I was trying to win and I didn't, yeah.

that would negatively affect me. So I kind of avoid it to be like, Oh, well, it doesn't matter to me. But I think it probably does really, but I just, I'd rather not tug at that thread. No, I get that. And I do think you need to have a thick enough skin. You need to be okay with not winning to enter them because the negative mental kind of impact they can have on you, it's not worth it.

And I think if you're not feeling strong enough to be okay with the fact that chances are you probably won't win many of them then don't, don't bother. Find a different way to lean on whatever you would. Trying to get from them. Yeah. I know why you're entering them like understand like for me It's it's it's a little bit about not needing to I don't feel comfortable selling like i'm not a good salesperson I just hope my pictures like my pictures and then if they don't then i'm like, oh look at this award, oh one thing thing Yeah, and then i'm like, oh, okay.

Let's have a chat then so I kind of lean on it for for those reasons but also I find it quite quite the process I enjoy. I enjoy looking at my work in a much more critical way. I enjoy looking at my work kind of like how I used to do at the art group, like thinking about, oh, is this work gonna, does this one kind of speak to lots of people or not?

And I think sometimes our jobs can become so you shoot the wedding, you edit the wedding, you deliver the gallery, you shoot the wedding. It's quite nice to just have something different in the mix. Yeah, whereas with, especially with photography awards, I don't know how it works with videography. I don't know if there's many chances to enter awards because you'd almost have to watch, like, it's very quick to judge a photography award.

Like, there's, you know, I know that I've been a judge on different things before and you know, you look at a picture, thumbs up, thumbs down kind of thing and you move on. And I don't know how that would work with videography. Much more, much more complicated. And there isn't, there isn't, there are, there are, there are some.

And there's there's more, there's more industry stuff now you know, recognizing and, and kind of allowing for filmmakers and videographers to, to enter things, but for quite a long time, there were, there was Twia, but again, it's not that it's not judged properly, but again, it, it's I, I I think. I think it's changing, but I think for a long time I felt like there wasn't much chance of you getting very far unless you had a particular style.

That's what it seemed like. It seemed like all of the, all of the kind of the winning entries, if you like, they all had the same style. So I think it has changed though over the last few years, but I just. You know, I've not thought I'm going to enter because I've just been focusing on other things to, to kind of to go back to the benefits there.

So have you noticed that that's been beneficial for your business in terms of like the marketing and things like that with the you know, with the, with the really difficult one to quantify really, because I think you don't really know It's not an obvious thing. Like if I was to ask my couples, or did any of you book me because I'd won awards, I'm pretty certain they would all go, oh no.

However, I think it just gives them a level of confidence. What it has helped with is my price. Again, I think if you're a little lacking in confidence, you might not be as you might not feel as comfortable putting your price up. So often I'll tell myself. Okay. If like, so I entered wedding industry awards and I kind of tell myself if I do well in that, if I come home with anything, then why don't you put your price up?

Yeah. And I did a similar thing with I kind of said, if I get myself onto like the fearless top 100 or something, maybe it's time to review your price. So that, that's kind of why I do it because it gives me a bit more confidence to charge. And I don't think I'm massively, you know, I charged two and a half for a 10 hour day.

So I'm not, I'm not top end. I'm not bottom end, but I'm, you know, kind of probably a smidge above average. But I find pricing really difficult. So for me, the, the, the, the awards had given me the confidence to put my price up so I could kind of, and I think it just kind of gave, gives clients a bit more like, okay, she's, she's got these badges on her website, so maybe, maybe, maybe she's, maybe she's worth it.

But I don't think, I don't think it has, it's really difficult to know. I don't know what impact it has. I can say that. Like my number, I've got my number, I've got, you know, I've got 24 bookings for this year. Yep. So I'm a little bit above the number that I want. Whether that's because I've got awards, I don't, I probably would say I don't think it is.

I think it's probably just relationships I've got with different different venues where I know that they're, they feel happy to recommend me. I think that's been my biggest tool is that the venues enjoy working with me. So they recommend me. So I was going to ask about where, where do you find your bookings come from?

Is it, is that the main sort of place? Is it recommended by other venues and stuff? Yeah, yeah. Referrals from venues, referrals from photographers and referrals from people that have been at a wedding or seen a wedding, they'll make up a chunk of my bookings. And then the rest is Google and Instagram.

No, I was gonna say, when it comes to awards, I think awards might not make, mean that much to my couples, but they probably do mean a bit to venues. Venues, yeah. So I think when a venue wants to recommend someone, if they've just seen that I've won an award, it just gives them a bit more confidence about recommending me for things.

So I do think, again, it's an, I'm guessing it's something that's not discussed, but you know, I'll have people that work at those venues going, well done and giving me the thumbs up. So I know they see it, and I know they. And then they're the ones that do recommend me. So for me, I think it's just, it just gives a bit more confidence to people when it comes to either recommending me or booking me.

So, yeah, absolutely. You're right. There'll definitely be more of a positive. If that's where the majority of your inquiries come from in your bookings are coming from personal recommendations, of course, you know, those people seeing that they, they, they see five photographers, 10 photographers coming to the venue on a regular basis.

They're all nice. They get along with them all well, but then Eric has just won X amount of awards there. And you know, it does, doesn't it? It's going to automatically, you know, kind of just push you in front of other people. And so that's, that's a really good takeaway for people, you know, if they're thinking, well, should I, should I enter awards and everyone's got different reasons to do it, but.

You know, that is a perfect one in itself. Just there. So talk a little bit then. I know that you offer a highlight film option as well as your photography. Obviously, we've spent a lot of time talking about photography and you came from the background of filmmaking originally. So, How long have you been offering highlight films alongside your photography?

And what's the kind of business model with that, then? So I only offer highlights videos to weddings that have a smaller guest count than 50. Okay. So as I've said, I'm a single shooter. I shoot nearly all my weddings by myself. It's really rare if I've got anyone with me. So for me to do both. Well it's, it's almost impossible.

So if someone's having a small wedding, this kind of came about during COVID where I had people going, Oh, we'd really like some video because, you know, half my family aren't coming. And, and I knew I could do video and I was kind of like, Ooh, shall I offer it? And I kind of was really torn between saying, Oh, I know I can make videos.

I know I can do videos. You know, I do videography for like. Corporate clients. It's a skill I know I've gotten, but doing photos at the same time, I wasn't too sure. So I kind of tested the water and a few of the couples that got married during the kind of big restrictions, you know, they had like 15 people at their wedding and I was like, I can do this.

I think the moments, the unique moments are going to be as they're not going to be as happening all the time. So it would just be a much slower paced wedding. So yeah, I started off. I would, you know, I, I, I, my highlights video to begin with kind of had a little bit of audio for the speeches and then it was just set to one piece of music a lot of film, lots of different clips, I think I ended up, I probably could have made a good, you know, 45 minute long video, the first ones that I did and I felt that the, the level of photography was still good enough but what I found, so I, I don't do it that often because most of my weddings are more than 50 And I would only offer it now if I was working with a second shooter and I would actually lean on my second shooter to do most of the video, the videography rather than myself because I just, I just don't think I can get those shots that are important to me and film at the same time.

But for a smaller wedding I can, and I, I think I listened to one of your previous podcasts and I do think there's definitely a place where, you know, I've kind of used that term generic quite a bit, but I think if you're producing safe work. You could probably produce a safe highlights video easily alongside and that will probably be good enough for a lot of people.

And I think that I definitely think like the I think what people have come to expect from a video is very different as well. Like we had a time when you mentioned these lovely cinematic, like really glossy films, obviously isn't necessarily for everyone, but that almost became a bit of a generic video.

These like slow motion, big epic opening scenes, like the, you know, the speeches over the top. And I think people have, we're kind of living in a YouTube and Instagram world where people are quite happy with. less. They don't need it to be quite as high end as that. And they just want a video. So I think if you're trying to trying to capture that market you can do both.

Personally, I do think if you're doing both and it's just you, they're gonna, you're gonna bring the level down for both of them. I say, I, I kind of, I, I, when I look at your photos and I think When, because I, I can do both and you're right, I think, I do, I do think of it as safe. I definitely know that my, if I'm just doing video I don't do, I only do kind of, you know, less than 5 percent of my weddings will be just photo.

But when I'm doing, when I'm doing just video, I do know that I've got a lot more Time and room to be creative with it so that there will be, they tend to be my video portfolios and then the, the, the photos is, yeah. I, I kind of tried to think about how I would get in the mindset of shooting like you and the, that's, that's the, the, the thing I, I can do safe photography and I do think that there's a lot of space for parts of the day that lend themselves more to photo anyway.

And parts of themselves that learn more to video, but the yeah, going outside of that cell safe thing and just try and try to really get amazing photo images and being in the right place and and also then worrying about the video is is very difficult. And I'm not sure. you know, I'm not, I'm not sure because I have been thinking about how, you know, things will change and how you can incorporate video into things, but maybe in a slightly different way than, you know, you creating a highlight film or a ceremony film or a speeches film, you know, but like actually thinking.

Do, do photo clips. So this is something I wanted to ask you. Do you ever see any of those amazing photos that you've captured and the reward winning because they're visually striking? Do you ever see any of those as a moving image?

I know I've slipped that one in and I had to trip you up. Sorry. I just thought of that. No, I don't. I, yeah, no, I don't. I don't. I, I, what in terms of like, would I, could I visualize it as a, as a video? I just don't know. Do you think that, do you think that you could? Do you think if you captured, I guess a lot of people who are shooting in that similar way, do you ever shoot on like burst mode so that you kind of get in lots of frames and maybe there's one that just caught the right expression?

So like if you were shooting almost stop motion ish. Do you know, does that ever, do you ever like think I'll just experiment with that? And a hundred percent. Yeah, no, I remember for a while thinking I'd love to stop motion a wedding and have like cameras set up and their time lapse in different parts of the day.

And I would, I think if I was going to do videography, I think this is why I've not done videography. I would want to do it in a unique way, which doesn't mean, you know, I think with photography, I found a way to tell a story. I found a way to capture moments interestingly and creatively, and I kind of know what I'm doing with that.

I think if I wanted to do videography, I don't think I would creatively be satisfied doing a highlights video that would be safe. Yeah, I know I can do it. I think what I would, I can come up with a load of different ways I would shoot. Wedding in a fun like in an Erica way that would be to me where the clients would want it I don't know.

But yeah, why haven't you done lots of different things? Because I'm a photographer, because I'm busy, I'm busy taking photos and I can't, I think I could go to someone else's wedding, not as a photographer and play and do something can see what I come up with, but I think with anything I do, I need to do it first to know I can do it.

I could, I'm not, I couldn't just suddenly charge and say, Oh, do you want to take a gamble on me doing your video? Because it might. be bloody awful, not to just stay in my own lane and do, do photography, but yeah, I think yeah, I, I can see how I can, I could see how I could do both. I can see how I could be creative with, with videography.

I just don't think for me to do both. as well as I'd like to I would have to really change my my way of working. And I'd have to find someone that I could work alongside that I fully trust. And I think that's, yeah, that's, and I know some of my friends who dabble in hybrid and, and do videos and photography, and they've definitely felt that they're not giving themselves the time to be as creative because they're learning and thinking about, you video and it's, I think, weddings are so fast paced and if I'm thinking about setting up a other camera to quickly go and press record and then I need, I just, it just would be missing things and but like I said, for a lot of people, it's like I'm talking back to that Ullswater picture, loads of people love safe and loads of people will buy safe and it doesn't mean that there's not a business there for that.

It just wouldn't work for, for what you do because I don't want to, don't want, yeah. This is the thing. This is, this is what I have been, this is the, the world I've been stuck in for the last few years. Was business or what I actually want to do. And I, you know, I'm just, it's been a great conversation because I've recognized how I have gone towards this safe because I knew I could do it.

I knew I could, I knew I could do photo and video together and I knew that the market was increasing for it. So all I've done is focus on, well, how do I create? That product that everybody is going to want, not what do I actually want? What do I, you know, I have and it's been interesting because it's, this is why I wanted to interview people because I know whenever I have conversations, it, it kind of either asks questions that needed to be asked inside my own head or it brings answers to the questions I've had.

So. Yeah, it's been, it's been really good to get that. I think there's nothing wrong in, I think it's important because I think when, I think when you're, when your business is so reliant in terms of like what you're putting back into your family, like what you can give your family, it's going to be so much harder for you to, Take a gamble and then start kind of making your creative soul happy, like, and if there's a part of your brain that's thinking, Oh, if I start getting creative and producing work that I love, I might get less work.

I think that's what you're worrying about, isn't it? You're, you're, you're, you might get less, but you might not. You might get more. You might be able to get more clients that love what you're doing, that lead you to, you know, it might keep you in the industry longer because you're happy and more fulfilled.

So, I think you just got to try it. I think you can. Yeah, you just got to give it a go. Show what you love and see if it speaks to people that are your kind of people. And if you can experiment a bit more if that's what you want to do. Yeah. And just, yeah, no, that's really, that's, that's really good. I really appreciate that.

I know we've both got kids to pick up from school. So you're looking at the clock thinking at me too. I'm like, Oh, crikey, this has gone on longer than I expected. No, no, it's been great. It's been a great conversation. We should have started earlier. So a couple of quick questions to wrap up that I just like to ask everybody so you can answer really quick, obviously.

And then, you know, the kids are waiting for us. So yeah. First one, biggest tip you would give yourself if you could go back to the start of your business. Oh, this was obvious. Just believe in yourself. Yep. Believe in yourself. Believe in your business. Take it seriously. Yeah, that'd be it. Brilliant.

That is, that's a great answer though. Cause yeah, that's what, that's what. people need to do. Something you wish you hadn't bought a gimbal. Now, did you buy a gimbal pound bond for one job? Was it a commercial? It was so much dust. I don't even know. I did it for one job, but I didn't. Yeah. And I was like, Ooh, this is what we're doing.

And it's been up in the loft for, for, for four years. So yeah. I bet you that's, that's a. quite a common answer if we asked loads of people. You can put one wedding trend in the bin. What is it? Can it be all trends? Does that count? Anything? I just think you don't like any of them. Okay. Yeah, I just think trends.

Yeah, I think when you shoot authentically, there's not really, it's not really a trend. So you don't really follow trends. So I just put them all in the bin. That's a good answer. It's a cop out, but it's a good answer. And the last one, you're getting married again. You can only choose one thing to document your day.

Is it for a video? No, you can't have both. Sorry. I was about to say both. You can have photo or video. Which one is it? Photography. Photography. No, I can see. Yeah, I can see that. Brilliant. Right, Erica, we're gonna go. But where could people find you? website. What is, what's that? So ericahawkinsphotography.

co. uk same on Instagram, just ericahawkinsphotography. Yeah, they're the two places that you can connect with me or yeah, send us a message or just come and look at my pictures. Brilliant. Thank you so much, Erica. I really appreciate it and I hope you have a great year. So that's it for my conversation with Erica.

What an episode I think it's been, packed with great insight and loads of takeaways for you. It's time for this episode's song recommendation, that you can find on Musicbed. As this episode, we haven't been talking about slow cinematic stuff. And we mentioned the wedding that Erica and I worked on together a few months ago, which was Emma and Vicky's Super Upbeat Wedding, which needed an upbeat and fun song to go with their wedding film.

So here we go with Live For The Moment by Georgia West and The Underground. I hope you enjoy it, thanks for joining us, catch you in the next one. Bye.